Bible incident draws concerns

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Darius
"You really think the way this young man handled his freedom of speech is how people should stand for something?"
Yes, I do. He could have been nicer about it perhaps, but he explained that nerves was a part of his blurting certain things out. A minority opinion isn't invalidated simply because the majority doesn't accept it, or finds it discomforting. I don't know if your objection is to danneskjold's characterization of his classmates as ignoramuses or if it is about the tearing of the Bible, or both. The ad hominem was unfortunate, and if dannes is going to employ this tactic, he should perhaps study Twain for some more subtle nuances. :-) The Bible tearing was actually quite a good demonstration of what he was talking about. It is, after all, only a book, with no special powers. Another student could similarly have done the same presentation, with the exception of ripping up the Ayn Rand book. As long as the book is owned by the person destroying it, it is a perfectly lawful act.

As for the nation being based on Christianity, you are simply mistaken. I suggest you do some research into Free Masonry and the connections to our founding fathers. And since you like to read, I suggest you read the book "Liars for Jesus" which takes a good look at revisionist historians.

You people seem to have a problem distinguishing the difference between "religion" and "principles". I've never said that the constitution is a "Christian" doctrine!! If you actually took the time to read my past posts I stated clearly that not all of the fathers of the constitution were necessarily Christians! Regardless of their religion, they were INFLUENCED by the CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES! Don't paint me as the mislead person here! Read your history! Like I said, your history is what you choose it to be because of your dis-favor of the Christian religion. You only believe what you want to believe. That's fine, it truly is. You're just not getting the truth. You choose not to. The founding fathers, Christian or athiest knew that the residual effects of "Christian Principles", (NOT CHRISTIAN RELIGION) were wholesome and that people of any religious choice could live by the PRINCIPLES and just by that alone people would willingly live together as "brothers and sisters" as opposed to our society now of "me" vs "you" mentality. PRINCIPLES NEVER CHANGE! EVER! (Remember, one truth for all--->"principles"!! When a person's principles are negotiated, when a country's principles are negotiated, you lose INTEGRITY! (for clarification purposes: Integrity = Honesty) When you have no Integrity, you have no trust, when you have no trust in society, your country is on a fast track to a very dark place! Balk if you will, stand by and let it happen if you must, but, don't condemn those who are willing to stand for something and not let their "principles/integrity" be compromised for personal gain. It's called being a person of CHARACTER. Can you look in the mirror and honestly say you're one of those people? I have to work at it every day ...it doesn't come overnight. It's a lifelong learning process.

ncpanfan : i should have said i have enjoyed talking to you and any enlightened christian for that matter. i do not find your faith sad, i just want there to be more answers then just faith. there is nothing wrong with being nice, i agree. as long as the purpose is not to convert nonbelievers. this is my first blog and for good reason. i do not like to argue but, i assumed if i was going to a blog was a good place to do it. i would never say these things to someone in person unless they asked. i don't feel the need to make everyone an atheist but, i would be a liar if i didn't say it sure would be nice. at any rate i respect you as a fellow human and i am not as harsh as i sound on here. my entire life i have had to stand up for atheist in the face of many who would like to see me burn at the stake. so forgive me if i forget that not everyone is against me.

I think "In God We Trust" was put on coins around the time of the Civil War. The U.S. Mint has a history of this on its webpage that I've read before.

"In God We Trust" wasn't put on paper money until the 1950s, shortly after the phrase "under God" was inserted in the Pledge of Allegiance. "In God We Trust" is our national motto, but again this didn't happen until the 1950s. It would seem to be at odds with the first amendment, but the Courts have upheld it . It's in the courts again and we'll see what happens.

Interestingly it's been upheld because the judges have said it's patriotic and not religious; that it is secular in character. This seems disingenuous in multiple ways. It's God, what is that if not religion? At the same time, calling God a symbol of secular patriotism would seem to be as about as anti-religion as one could get.

Making "In God We Trust" the motto and adding "Under God" the pledge can easily be interpreted as divisive. E Pluribus Unum does not discriminate against anyone, "In God We Trust" excludes atheists or polytheists. Say the pledge without "Under God" and it does not exclude anyone, but add that phrase and it quickly changes the tone of who the liberty and justice is for.

darius-I'm not anti-christian, I'm just not christian. And not all atheists are t.v. loving, non-book reading types of people. Just thought you should know. Do you like generalizations?

The pope could have used his free will to not join the Hitler youth. Seems like moral relativism to me.

Darius is disillusional. He tells us to read and then vaguely rants on about how the anti-Christians this and the anti-Christians that. We are a secular nation that follows the rule of law and REASON!!! Religion is not reason. If you read Thomas Paine's Common Sense which is almost exactly what the Declaration of Independence you would know this. Paine also wrote the Age of Reason. All of these developments were a part of the renaissance which was the growth of secular humanism which puts its faith in the ability of individuals to think and reason for themselves. This is where voting comes in. It is a purely secular act. Darius should try reading Paine or Mill. I believe God was put on coins because the Anabaptists were refusing to use the currency because they actually practice "render under to Ceasar".

darius

Where in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence is Christ mentioned?

Where in the Constitution is a Creator, or God, or divine Providence mentioned.

The Constitution is where the rights are established and there is no mention of Jesus, or even a god; that is unexpected if the rights are established on Christian principles.

Those who choose to deny that our countries founding fathers established the rights of our nation based on Christian principles are fooling themselves. This is a classic example of how our history is being altered right under our noses. The anti-Christians choose to re-write history as if it never happened. The "truth" is distorted. As has been said, there is only one real truth. It's not going to be found behind the remote control of a TV set or in an anti-Christian publication, or anti-Christian internet site. The truth can be found in books that our forefathers had written dating back to that time. I understand that many anti-Christians would rather stick their heads in the sand and deny this fact and continue to spew what they "want" the truth to be. That's our society in a nutshell right there. People are raised to believe that whatever works for them, personally, is the truth. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. READ!

Justsayno: Thank you. I understand your point but I have to say that we all have hope and faith in something or someone, whether it be your spouse or significant other that you have faith in their love for you or your family or your friends or hope for your future (school, work, promotion, etc.)If someone says they love you, they can't really prove it, you take them at their word and have hope and faith in them. This is true for many situations. We all have dreams and hope that those dreams will come true and most of us have faith in ourselves that we can accomplish our goals. I hope you can see my point in this. I just don't think it should make anyone sad when someone finds comfort in their faith or hopes or dreams no matter what that source of comfort is. That is what makes us human, to feel.My dysfunctional childhood was something that took me a long time to get past and find forgiveness for all in. I promised myself that when I had a family of my own, my kids would never go through what I went through and I have kept that promise.I told my husband that when he asked me to marry him. He is a wonderful man and a great father and our children know what a happy childhood is. They have grown into wonderful young adults and we have been blessed.I have faith and hope in them that they will go further in life than I ever did. I believe they can and I believe in them. That doesn't make me sad, it makes me happy and hopeful for the future. (Although I am suffereing from the empty nest syndrome and they haven't even left yet, LOL)I hope that this helps explain my feelings somewhat more and I know you said it makes you sad but I also know you posted earlier that you have found it interesting to read the posts trying to understand the reasons why people choose to believe in God.(Not your exact words but something to that effect)I have faith in God and hope that when the end comes my faith will not have been for naught. If I am wrong then those who have told me so will be satisfied to find they were right but if I am right then my hopes and faith will carry me forward. No one knows for sure as no one can prove any of it but then again that takes us back to the fact that the choices we make are ours and ours alone and no one will ever agree with someone on everything, but that shouldn't stop us from being friends or aquaintances with others. It is the right thing to do when you treat others well and with respect because that is how we all would like to be treated. No matter what you believe or who you believe, it never hurt anyone to be nice to others. :o)

Seems like the kid was expressing a rather defensible position, one many of us have either insufficient critical capacity or overabundance of social brainwashing and conformist fear to express. His use of the bible prop - creative, the gesture has time-honored links with historical events.

At least most of us are past the practice of heretic-burnings for the moment. The Catholics rave over martyrs and their canon is replete with them, but how aware are they of the tens of centuries when Christian mobs or power structures made martyrs of those suspected of not following their dogma - countless generations of legally sanctioned cold-blooded murderers killing in the guise of claiming confidence with God.

By the way, how does one deny the educational benefits of others by broadening the dialogue? Or discriminate against an overwhelmingly large majority by speaking one's solitary critical mind? All in all, sounds like an easy mark for the ACLU or any other liberty-treasuring entity, and the stuff for which Janesville could be roundly debased from more intellectually tolerant circles.

What about the people, the individuals, who actively participated in establishing this nation? Were they Christians? The truth is that some were and some were not, of course. But even those who were not were influenced by the principles of Christianity. By examining what many of them said and wrote we gain insight into their beliefs and the source of their commitment. Many of them had been influenced by the "Great Awakening" and its' residual effect.
Benjamin Franklin, considered a deist by many, said, "He who shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world." And Thomas Jefferson, also considered a deist, said, "The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." Jefferson is even quoted as having said, "I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

We are uniquely American. We come from different cultures. Our ancestors came from England and China; Germany and Italy; Africa and South America. We come from Japan and Vietnam; from Mexico and Canada. We come from every nation of the world. We enjoy our unique backgrounds, but we are not what our ancestors were. We're Americans. We're Americans, and many of us are Christians, but for all of us, our nation was founded by Christians on Christian principles, and that's good because we know that God gives rights to everyone, including non-Christian.

Today the Ten Commandments hang from the U.S. Supreme Court courtroom, the coins of America say, "In God We Trust," and we say in the Pledge of Allegiance, "One nation under God." Time does not permit me to list more examples of how fundamentally important Christ was to our ancestors who founded this nation. Thousands of examples of Godly men and women who advocated the importance of Christian principles expressed in the Bible and who wrote the historical documents that established this nation overwhelmingly demonstrates, that from the beginning, this nation was a Christian nation. It was begun by Christians who recognized God as ruler of the universe and mankind's dependence on Him and His Gospel of salvation.

Husbandofmath, the Pope joined the Hitler Youth movement after membership was made compulsory in 1941. By contrast, he chose to be a leader of the Catholic Church.
In my town, Milton, all of the denominations worship together during all major religious holiday seasons, and they work together on several projects for the good of people of all faiths (or no faith). My church strongly urges all youth to attend worship services of each denomination during their confirmation process, and organizes a trip each year to a Synagogue in Madison (because we don’t have one).. This is not to show what they are doing wrong (they aren’t, and it isn’t suggested that they are), but to show the many facets of worship.
We believe that men are born with free will and with that free will, they might have slightly different interpretations of Christian and other worship. That doesn’t mean those different details are wrong, just different.

Most of you people are so dogmatic. No one is going to change anyones mind, so why go on and on. Let this boy vent his anger somewhere else.

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school for all of my childhood. So, I will tell you that to the Catholics who raised me it is not the same. If it were you wouldn't have denominations or need conversion now would you?

The Pope was a member of the Hitler youth movement. You were unaware? So, you see the young man who ripped up the bible could grow up to be President or at least Pope.

husbandofmath- In response to your comment about having to become Catholic to have the baptism recognized...wrong again. I was married at St Mary's 5 years before I joined the Church. I was asked at the time to show the baptism certificate from my original church. That was all it took because there is"one baptism for the forgiveness of sins." That baptism is universal in Christianity.
You have now been shown by two people to be incorrect in your interpretation of Catholicism. Can you just accept that you do not fully understand the Catholic faith and move on? Must you keep trying to find a fault? I also do not understand at all your comment about ex-Nazi. Perhaps it is another of your attempts at misinformation.
While this exchange has been interesting, it would take more than words on this blog to correct your misconceptions...it would take you admitting that you do not know Catholicism and a willingness on your part to learn. I do not see either happening.

Katy, does God split hairs too or is that just you. Do you really believe that most catholics understand the nuance? You seem to be desperately searching for a grammatical loophole. They don't even understand that the Catholic church says that its a sin to discriminate and then discriminates against women by not allowing them positions in the church hierarchy. So its a sin for everyone else but not for them? How is that moral? Infallibility for an ex-Nazi, Jesus would be proud.

Katy, you are so right about the Lutherans using the same creed-and I even skimmed that statement and it didn't even think about it. As one who likes to speak his/her mind, I really lament that missed opportunity.....oh well, you put it very well yourself.

my comments on rock county residents are based on experience but, i did not say all of rock county. i live in rock county and i am not lazy,fat, dui,nascar, or smoke. there is a very large population here that falls right into what i said and you know what i am talking about.
ncpanfan: i am sorry about your childhood or in your case lack there of. i also think most people did not have a very good childhood and most are abused in some way, again not all. i find it sad that people feel they have to look to god to feel content. i'm sure there are support groups for such abuse and a trip to the spa wouldn't hurt. treating yourself like a god can make you feel worthy,happy, and excepted also.

I have been content to log in and read the comments being posted here to follow how far afield the discussion has gotten from the original premise of the student's speech. And I have not been disappointed. Now I am compelled to similarly stray from the topic at hand to respond to husbandofmath's commonly held misinterpretation of the Apostle's Creed as recited during Catholic Mass. The Creed indeed states "We believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church..." with exactly the spelling indicated, with a lower case "c" for the word catholic. This designates the more common definition of the word catholic: "Universal or appealing to the general population." When the word is capitolized, then it takes on the meaning of the Catholic Church. If I am not mistaken, the Lutheran service uses the exact same Apostle's Creed. This is your friendly mini-Catholic lesson for the week.:)

Rush: Yes I knew the theory but considering the childhood I had you wouldn't know it. I was molested, raped and had an acolholic, abusive father but I can tell you that as angry as I was and hurt no matter what I did to make things better nothing worked til I found God. You may not understand it and I am not telling you have to believe what I believe but I can tell you that I found peace when I found God and I found forgiveness for myself as well as others. It is just how God and faith make me feel. Everyone has or does different things that make them feel happy or good or better, in my case it was God who made me feel loved and like I mattered and my faith gives me hope. It is my choice to believe in God and I do. I don't force anyone else to, as that is their own choice but I don't feel I should be ridiculed or called names because of my beliefs. I hope that makes sense to you without making you feel the need to make fun of me.

Just for the record, I don't smoke, I'm not overly fat, I'm definately not lazy and I do follow NASCAR on occasion. Oh, and the last part, about "getting off my butt and doing something about it"..... I have that covered. I'm very proactive when it comes to that. Something many obviously would not understand in here and of course I can give several examples of those who do understand it. I've read the posts from Kleej and I'm intrigued to know what this person does! You've taken your shots with alot of class. Whatever you do, don't stop doing it. We need more people with your conviction doing the right things. Thinking and choosing to be different is always a target for opposition. Especially when it's for something noble and of a positive nature. I'm in the fight with you.

I assume you include yourself as one of the "fat, lazy, nascar, smoking,DUI, rock county residents".

this blog has gone on for 3 weeks because atheist and god lovers have been talking about why they are for or against god. i'm sure it could go on forever.i for one have enjoyed talking to the god lovers and trying to understand why they believe. as for the student, i wish the rest of the fat, lazy, nascar, smoking,DUI, rock county residents would get off their rather large fast food eating asses and stand up for something in public. it's easy to put this student down but, i ask you all "what was the last thing you stood up for in a public venue" ?

Rush 2112
danneskjold's rants in this site don't exactly put much validity to the statement: "Dannes was made out to look bad in this article."

People of integrity are expected to be believed, and when they're not, they let time prove them right. Let's see what danneskjold is made of.

karenincarolina,

You really think the way this young man handled his freedom of speech is how people should stand for something?
Maybe that's how George Washington should have handled the war against England the same way! Maybe that's what Winston Churchill should have done when Hitler tried turning Great Britain into a Nazi death camp! What "danneskjold" did wasn't taking a stand! It's called lashing out at a society that's desperate for leadership! (Just like Kleej said)
Mainstream America is so misguided due to the media that's being injected into the minds of our generations of people that there isn't even a sense of reality anymore. TV has become our country's culture as opposed to the printed word. In short, people don't read anymore! The ones that do, read garbage. Why? Because of corporate America!!! It sells!!! Same with TV! Why are there no moral programs on anymore? Because they don't sell!!! When money replaces morality as the driving force for our country, we're doomed. We're headed in that direction now! Adults need to kick off their lead boots of denial and wake up! Our future generations are counting on us.

This thread has been active for nearly 3 weeks. Can we just put this to bed, already? No school is perfect, no one is perfect. Parker has issues, Craig has issues as do the surrounding communities and their schools. Get off it already, it's not healthy and not worth your time to sit here and belly ache about it!

Oh, and if I'm an adult shame on me? If you're an adult SHAME ON YOU attacking a highschool student without truly knowing all the facts. I hope it helps you sleep at night :).

Yes, ihavealife, where exactly have you heard that he 'approached her in the hallway'? Were you there? Just another example of people believing whatever they are told. This Gazette article was just jazzed up yellow journalism, and anything outside of it is based on rumor. Dannes was made out to look bad in this article.

Deliberately choosing to be blind (blind faith). Not a choice I would make in my life time. Listening to those who chose it and try lamely to defend it is obnoxious. I find this whole conversation rather redundant & boring. Good luck to you danneskjold. I'd get out of here too if I were you. Don't we have better things to do at this point? Good bye. :?)

ihavealife, well I'm glad you're the expert on the topic. I had no idea I approached "the girl" in the hallway after I knew she was afraid of her. Where are you getting your facts? Are you kidding me? I didn't realize she was the one upset until the following Monday. I never approached anyone and I never made any threats. Also, she is the one who chose to have her name made public and printed in the paper. My friend started the facebook and I joined. Gazette happened upon it and printed a story about it. She was very involved in school, good for her. She should go back and continue. Her, or her father or whoever, is overreacting. I'm back in school. I never made a threat and I continue to make no threats. Calling names? I didn't spout insult after insult out. How many kids nowadays use the word ignoramus? Hey, it sounds like anus, so to me it's a pretty funny word. You're funny, ihavealife.

Rush2112-if you are a teenager i understand your comment,if you are an adult shame on you.this kid is blaming this young lady for what happened to him,what started all of this was HIS actions.i believe more needed to be done to him. you tell me that he had the right to walk up to her in the hallway after this when he knew she was afraid of him??? facebook page ? he uses her name but won't use his(yes i know it) .as far as calling him names he himself says "just words" and yes words do hurt.she was very involed in school,what has he done? i listen to my gut and that knot in it is telling me to have concerns.in all the school tragedys i don't ever remember hearing anyone ever said they knew that those kids were going to do something like that. these are just my opinions.gut instinct means a lot to me.does anyone really know what the cost of this is going to be for all involed?

MikeF, you had to become a Catholic to have your baptism recognized as Catholic. Had you stayed Methodist it would not have been. Do you not state the Apostles Creed at mass and does it not exclude those who are not Catholic?

Darius, what are you talking about? It sounds like ancestry worship to me. Sacrifices for liberty are just that. You dishonor liberty and their sacrifices by making their deaths some sacred act. In a society that has liberty and equality at its heart the only thing sacred are the individual decisions made by people to read or not. Sounds to me like you would like to re-educate all those not like you comrade.

Darius
Someone did stand up. But his message of independent thought was so foreign to the status quo, it was taken to be a threat, and he was sent to see a shrink.

"Their baptism and no one else's. Not other Christians. Just theirs."
FALSE. I was baptized in a Methodist church, but joined the Catholic Church about 10 years ago. I was not re-baptized, the church accepted my CHRISTIAN baptism as sufficient and legitimate.
husbandofmath - From your choice of words, including the repeated use of "their" I presume you are not Catholic. I would suggest learning a little more about the Catholic faith before you misrepresent it again.

I believe janeskjold is in the same boat as alot of our younger generation are. Forget about the religion part. It's society in general. I think the biggest problem in our culture is the fact that so much junk is being taught to our young. Including what schools are teaching. History for instance, so much of what actually happened is being either taken out of context or simply taken out period. Our children need to know our countries history! The real history and not just the parts that our society of people have chosen to teach. The younger generation and much of the older generation have stopped reading for one thing. I'm not talking about Sports Ill. or John Grisham novels either! I'm talking about books that pertain to our American History. The one thing that is hard for me to take is the fact that so many people in this country feel no sense of pride or have an inkling as to the sacrifices that so many of our forefathers have made to give people like you and me the freedom to come in sites like these and give our opinions. Let us never forget the George Washington's, the Ben Franklins, the Martin Luther Kings, the men and women who lost their lives in the wars over the past centuries and those families who still to this day grieve for them. Our younger generation and those who choose to bury their heads in the sand need to know what these people gave up for us! No way can these people have all died in vein. Shame on our society of people for allowing that to happen. It's not the childrens fault either! It's the people who choose to stand around and do nothing and allow it to keep happening. There's no integrity anymore in this once great country. Where have all the leaders gone? Can't someone step up? Can't we all just make a decision to step up?

Beware of those teachers of religion! They love to wear the robes of the rich and scholarly, and have everyone bow to them as they walk through the markets.They love to sit in the best seats in the synagogues, and at the places of honor at banquets-but they shamelessly cheat widows out of their homes, then, to cover up the kind of men they really are, they pretend to be pious by praying love prayers in public. Because of this their punishment will be all the greater."
Words of Jesus Christ, Mark 12:38-40
The Bible has nothing to do with religions.
I don't blame the kid for asking questions and having a mind of his own. He has questions about this life and is looking for answers outside of what he was taught by his family, same as I did at 17. It took me 10 years after that to get it, while fighting it every step of the way, but like that old, outdated book says: "train a child in the way he should go, so when he's old he won't depart from it."

"You go ahead and be reliant on them if you choose. Be a slave if you like." - Kleej

It's quite convenient to absolutely ignore every point that is brought up against you by simply saying "you don't understand." It's quite evident that you have nothing with which to back yourself up, so you resort to mounting what you perceive as your moral high ground--a "high ground" which is drenched in the blood of the millions of innocents slaughtered at the hands of the adherents of your religion.

Unless you have straight facts, and not just the hypocrisy of what Thomas Jefferson called "the ridiculous illusion of the cry of blind faith", you have nothing to argue, and nothing to contribute, frankly.

Repeating the facts of what Catholics state as a matter of their faith is bashing? So, stating that the Nazis killed Gay people is Nazi bashing? I thought the truth would set you free? Obviously not.

And they walk among us.

So now "husband", are you turning this into a Catholic bashing? Let it go, every religion thinks they are the "one" and can be attacked individually here by their specific beliefs. This subject has beat beaten to death and now you are trying to get a rise out of the biggest group of christians.

"Can't we all just get along"?

There are basically two kinds of belief. Religious belief which is based exclusively on "faith". And there is scientific belief which is based on empirically based evidence. Some of this evidence takes its form in data such as when experimental physicists create experiments that prove theoretical physicists correct or in error. For example, there was a big stir in the 90's when some scientists claimed to have created "Cold Fusion" however no one else could repeat their experiments and get the same results. So, that was a false lead. Some forms of science require a consensus because experimentation isn't possible or isn't entirely exact. Some of these fields include geology, archeology, climatology and many more. However, the scientists that work in these fields still have to publish their observations and conclusions for others to read and critique. Empiricism is the foundation of our modern secular society. Everything that is engineered, including our cars, homes, computers, internet, medicine and form of government is empirically based. Voting itself is part of the trust that empiricism derives from an individuals ability to makes their own decisions based on their own observations. If we were a religious based society we would still have a king whose authority was based on the divine right of monarchs which was the tradition at that time. Notice the founders specifically used "Creator" which could be your parents and not God.

Religion requires no such rigorous standards which is why it has given us nothing except self-righteousness. Longer lives? No. More food? No. Better medicines? No. Every time religion has tried to discredit science it has lost. If religion was a product being sold? It would be a fraud because it cannot prove that its product works.

Finally, inside every Catholic church, every week, all the Catholics stand up and recite what is the "Apostles Creed". This is their statement of belief, what they say is true. It says near the end "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church. One baptism for the forgiveness of sins..." Their baptism and no one else's. Not other Christians. Just theirs.

Ncpfan, you may not have turned to God until almost 20, but is it not true that you knew of the theory of God your whole life before that? If you'd grown up never hearing of God in your life until that age the idea probably would have seemed farfetched.

"DOES ANYONE FIND IT ALARMING THAT danneskjold WENT A A RANT FOR 5 HOURS LAST NIGHT????? GET THIS KID SOME HELP,IF NOT FOR HIM, BUT THE OTHER STUDENTS AT PARKER HIGH SCHOOL!!! HIS ACTIONS ARE OUT OF CONTROL.I REALLY FEEL THAT HE HAS BEEN BULLIED(FROM WHAT HE HAS SAID IN POSTS)AND HE IS GOING TO EXPLODE."

ihavealife, you have no life. I can't believe you said that. You need help, judging someone like that. If a bunch of people singled you out wouldn't you be a little pissed? Over the internet you can't hear the words so how can you assume he's saying them in a threatening way? I don't care what kind of 'signs' you detect from his words, you don't KNOW him. You are concerned for other students' safety, and it's not a bad thing, but you're jumping to outrageous conclusions. NO ONE IS GOING TO BE KILLED OR HURT SO GET OFF IT, seriously!!!!!!!! Listen to yourself.

Justsayno: Okay with what you said but we must remember that there are cops, teachers, neighbors who have turned out to be child molestors as well and not all of them are christians.
Danne: Just so you know and this may be a big suprise to you I did not turn to God until I was almost 20 so there went yor childhood theory down the drain...

danneskjold... just out of curiosity, how was ripping the bible showing that you were a free thinker?

cyndee is not posting anymore, wow there are miracles. well cyndee,i never said "all" christians. just the ones that attend a church that they know has been molesting children and doing NOTHING about it. you could have church in the parking lot until the offender is put in jail and stop puting money in the collection plates of know child molesters.

DOES ANYONE FIND IT ALARMING THAT danneskjold WENT A A RANT FOR 5 HOURS LAST NIGHT????? GET THIS KID SOME HELP,IF NOT FOR HIM, BUT THE OTHER STUDENTS AT PARKER HIGH SCHOOL!!! HIS ACTIONS ARE OUT OF CONTROL.I REALLY FEEL THAT HE HAS BEEN BULLIED(FROM WHAT HE HAS SAID IN POSTS)AND HE IS GOING TO EXPLODE.

danneskjold
Though I do not agree with all your conclusions you are a well studied young man and can hold your own in an intellectual discussion with any one on these posts, regardless of age. I can tell from your comments you understand Christology and have given much thought to your opinions.
I commend you for that for what its worth.

JM727
You mentioned that Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of Buddhism said the same things Jesus said only 600 years earlier. Well you at least have the time he lived right. Though there are some similarities, Golden Rule, reap what you sow among them, they differ on their main teachings. The founder of Buddhism says life is suffering and to release ourselves from reincarnations we must cease to desire. He does not speak of a personal God nor is Nirvana a place, nor does he offer forgiveness nor eternal life or say any of those things are found in him. Whereas, Jesus speaks of a personal God who is our Father, of heaven as a place, of Himself as the way to God and the means to forgiveness and eternal life. I think there are many good things taught in Buddhism but to say that Jesus and Gautama taught the same things is not true.

When I 1st wrote that comment I did not take into account how much you have thought this out and I was taking it literal as a smug, see I win example.

JM727
Now onto question regarding the lineage of Jesus. That is an excellent question, thank you for thinking of me. The same question was posted before but I did not bite on it because of the topic of the blog and because the answer, though easy. is rather difficult to articulate in a short amount of space and might be very dull to some. There long answer would take several "pages" so here is the short answer to your question as to why it does not appear (on the surface) that Jesus is the direct descendent of the Davidic line as is necessary to fulfill Messianic prophecies.
First the names of women were not mentioned in genealogies. If you put the genealogies in Matthew and Luke in a juxtaposition you will find a distinction as to who was the father of Joseph, Matthew cites it as being a man named Jacob and Luke a man named Eli or Heli. This is because there was no word for father in law, which according
to the Talmud of Jerusalem (Talmud Yerushalmi) is who Eli was. He was Joseph's father-in-law, Mary's father. Eli's ancestry is traced to David so therefore Jesus is in the Davidic line. To quote Forrest Gmp, "and that's all I have to say about that.."

JM727
You addressed my alter ego bibledude in your Jan 4, 2008 at 12:26 p.m post how can Jesus be the Messiah when the Messiah comes from the line of David and no such lineage is found (apparently) in the genealogies of Matthew and Luke. I understand this topic is not the subject of this forum but since this question has surfaced twice and this time I was asked directly to respond I thought to be polite that I should respond. If it bores any of you I apologize in advance.
Before I answer I'd like to briefly address the subject of Bible contradictions if I may. I will use the most important event of the New Testament, the resurrection of Jesus Christ to illustrate a point.
There are apparent discrepancies in the Synoptic gospels accounts of this event. Matthew' and Marks gospel state one angel and Luke's two. This then becomes the basis on which to discredit the Bibles account of the Resurrection. There is an answer to this though I will not elaborate on it for my purposes here are to illustrate a point. In the account of the events at PHS there have been some contradictions in the story. The paper says one thing, another eye witness another and the young man corrects them by stating what really happened. Though there are apparent discrepancies in the story all agree on key points. There were pages torn from a Bible to make a point,
this caused some to be offended, disciplinary action was taken by the school, etc. My point is this, on the surface I see contradictions (and they have explanations) but the accounts agree on the main facts.
The discrepancies do not mean the events at Parker did not happen or are made up. Likewise, pointing out minor discrepancies in the scriptures do not negate the main truths the writers are communicating. There are discrepancies but more importantly there is agreement, there was an empty tomb, there was a proclamation that Christ was risen from the dead, there were appearances of the risen Christ, etc. I'd like to say more but that will suffice for now.

"Expecting for something to happen when you tore the page(s) and then claiming that it is false because nothing happened is akin to driving past a police officer faster than the posted speed and claiming there are no speed limits because he did not ticket me".
I hope you understand by now that I wasn't mocking God with my gesture. It's a ridiculous social more created from religious dogmas that someone can't desecrate the "Holy Word of God". It's an inhibition of productive thought. I was demonstrating my ability to think beyond such false barriers.

danneskjold, my comment was in relation to your 10:41 comment. At the risk of not using my brain because I agree with you, yes I tend to come off as a teacher. If you look back at my comments I do not address many of the other commentors... for a reason...

As you see, I too see some of the other comments as not thinking through and weighing evidence. In your comments I see someone who is thinking, not just blind faith, but thinking.

When the other commentors were slinging names and accusations at you, I again had a wall come up and dismissed their point. It is what I do to weed out the difference of good debate vs I don't have any good defense so I will name call. My athiest comment did not state that I called you an athiest, but stated that in my view an individual does not represent the group.

Again, I did not address other comments because I've heard that. I do enjoy your comments because it is not the same ol' message but as stated before believe the message is lost when it is mud-slinging.

If this wall thing is just my hang-up, so be it. But as evidenced by many of the comments others have the same issue.

Kleej I thought you could appreciate this quote, from one of our presidents even, because you claim to be so "American".
"If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." -John Quincy Adams

"Please take a look at your writing of these and then the following posts you had. There is a definite shift that puts a wall up for the readers to have to overcome to get to your message.

If your objective is to get your viewpoint out, one style works. If your objective is to incite the other works..." Yeah, well I know that. It sounds like you're a teacher trying to tell me how to write, which in turn sounds like an adult talking to a kid. That's where I was coming from. Most of the people making comments on me sounds like they're talking to some stupid kid.
Unless your previous comment was about my 10:59 post, then I don't know what you're talking about.

danneskjold, it is amazing how mis-informed you can be. Please show me where I posted all those accusing comments you made about me.

Trying to incite??? NO I just shake my head and walk out of the room when my kids do this and let them rant.

Apology benthinkin for assuming you were a sucker born again.I read some of your other posts.
There is weak atheism and there is strong atheism. You can get up in arms about the hypocrisy, poison, and injustice of organized religion or you can sit back and say "whatever". They are the majority in this country and I know I may have generalized when I labeled my class, but the LARGE majority in that class could have cared less what I said. I give atheists a bad name, c'mon. I didn't go up there and start talking about the American Atheists Association or whatever their organization is because I do not consider myself an atheist. I do sometimes like to think that I will recapture my memories of this life, that it isn't ALL for nothing. So I do reserve a little bit of myself for the mystical. Never did I say "I AM AN ATHEIST!" I am irreligious. Atheists have NO reserve for the supernatural. They're almost as bad as radical religious folk. If anything I gave a "bad name" for agnostics. :)
There are too many little coincidences in life that add up, and I think everyone knows what I'm talking about, to think there's not SOMETHING messing with us. But there isn't this ethereal glow of supernatural presence surrounding the physical world. This isn't "Constantine".

danneskjold,
i seriously like love everything you say. everyone is CRAZY if they are saying you don't think for yourself. obviously you do & you're not an "impressionable teenager" they are just mad because they are probably old and are going to die soon, and OH NO if there isn't a god what do they have to look forward to? NOTHING this is it. quit living your life like an idiot and live it how you want. because after you die, that's it. but if thinking about an eternal afterlife makes you content, then whatever, you're not going to live much longer anyway. but don't listen to me, i'm probably also an impressionable teenage who is going to be a horrible role model for kids around the world

"And yes, sarcasm and "colorful" language adds flare to any conversation, as long as every other word isn't attacking someone."
I do not see this wall that I put up after my third post, benthinkin. My fourth post was directed at nobody commenting on here, but rather about the event that the news article was about. I was giving my viewpoint while inciting Elle Jacobson. Is my argument less valid now? Do I get a B, a C from you? Do you look low on me now? I don't see this huge wall of insulting that blurs my comment. You can read past it. And thanks also for revealing "I was caught up in the information and ideas you presented and you had me thinking back to when I was a teen." That tells me, IMO, that your intelligence has dropped significantly since you were a teen if you no longer think of such things. You grew up to take the easy way out, huh? Go with God? "Surrender"? You had a mid-life crisis and now you're born again? Rejuvenated with the everlasting love of "Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior"? I've read several comments like yours coming from ADULTS trying to be a parent and criticize everything I say. Let me guess, you're older so that automatically makes you "wiser". Get off it. Your arguments are pretty one-dimensional now.
I know what TONE and VOICE are. I am aware of how mine change from post to post. Thanks, Captain Obvious. Any other brilliance you would like to shine on me?

danneskjold: I enjoyed your 7:27, 7:43 and 8:13 comments. I was caught up in the information and ideas you presented and you had me thinking back to when I was a teen. We need more of that...

Plese take a look at your writing of these and then the following posts you had. There is a definite shift that puts a wall up for the readers to have to overcome to get to your message.

If your objective is to get your viewpoint out, one style works. If your objective is to incite the other works...

Or Kleej, could it be that your generation is old-fashioned and stubborn? Could it be that we young ones might just know what we're talking about? I don't know what this image you hold of the teenager is, but it's pretty annoying. Do you think we ALL watch terrible television and listen to terrible music? So now teenagers are impressionable too, I take it. We have no self-control? Funny, "Those recent posts by daniskjold totally prove my point." Wow, miss high and mighty. I think someone told me on this blog that saying something like that makes you sound a little arrogant. And leadership, WTF are you talking about? I'm mature enough to "go out into society" as you call it and "set an example for the next generation". First of all, I don't have to set an example for anybody except children I may choose to have, or unless I'm on TV or in Music and I have to be conscientious of my watchers. What example are you setting? The bible-thumper. Putting scripture in your post. Yeah, YOUR puny brain didn't come up with anything that smart. That's why you refer people to scripture. You don't have anything remotely intelligent to say, you just feel reverenced for just putting the book and verse number. That makes you look like a fool. What are you doing with your life? Leading anyone? Perhaps brain-washing your kids with your religious hogwash? I'm 17 years old, I don't have to LEAD anybody. Lacking leadership...are you psychotic? Please, do answer me. Don't ignore me. I really want to know if you are psychotic because any sane person would not think that distorted, Ye of little faith in the next generation. Am I going to lead people with God as millions have done before me? Please do elaborate. Your comment is very vague.

CYNDEE,
I'm with you. Those recent posts by daniskjold totally prove my point. There's an example of the leadership that's totally lacking in society. The disconnected generation. Just duplicating all the wrong that they're taught and expected to go out into society as adults and set a good example for the next generation. If this is the future generation of people we have to carry the torch for this country, we are in serious trouble. Phillipians 1:3 to all my fellow brothers and sisters! God bless.

Here let me beat you all to the punch. "No, danneskjold, we don't need to call people names to raise ourselves above others. We think our crap doesn't stink to begin with." It must be pretty lonely for you way up on that pedestal. "Oh, us Christians would never use such foul, crude, crass, vulgar words. We have morality and manners and common decency for others and blah blah blah, blah blah blah BLAH blah" I'm only human. They ARE words. They're as good as all the other words. And they're FUN to use! You forget about FUN? The name-calling is all in good fun.

Also, how dare you say Christian based principles of the constitution. Christians invented everything, right? It's all of THEIR ideas that are right but other religions are just full of crap. No one had any good ideas before Jesus walked the earth, right? Morality comes from the Bible. Hahahahaha. The ignorance is just radiating from your comments. I read them and I go "Holy man...this guy is really frickin stupid" A lot of you. And I bet you think I'm pretty stupid too, but whatever. Call me stupid. I'll actually be MORE interested in what you have to say.

Yes Kleej, thank GOD for democracy. Socialism and communism work in theory, but no country knows how to do it properly. It's not because they have no God, it's because it's not a truly-free democracy with an open economy. Sure, lack of GOD is why governments fall apart. Please.

Tearing up the Bible wasn't an attack on a group of people. It was a symbol that demonstrated my freedom of thought, WHICH WAS WHAT MY APHORISM WAS ABOUT. It was not irrelevant. The only reason, the ONLY reason I was expelled was for tearing out a few pages from my Bible. Sorry, Elle Jacobson IS a superstitious, narrow-minded ignoramus. It is her fault that I was suspended. If she would have lightened up a little bit I wouldn't be typing this. I get called fat. Whatever. Sure it hurts, and I GUARANTEE you that it hurts A LOT more than someone calling you a superstitious simple-minded ignoramus. Seriously, how sheltered are you? I gave that speech with a grin because it was a big joke. I totally didn't expect everyone to take me so seriously. Literally, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, lighten up. Jesus would have hunched over with tears in his eyes, laughing hysterically. He probably would have even handed me another Bible. If you hear someone in your class use the phrase "sand in the vagina" how can you not help but laugh? Get offended? C'mon, the visual alone is hilarious. It's just a simple case of a teenage girl being melodramatic. Now I bet for saying that I'll have a whole slew of you saying "Nuh uh! That's really offensive when you attack someone's BELIEFS", and you will have forgotten everything I have said on this blog. The school gives me the lame excuse that some kids were threatened. They could have looked at me and started laughing. "This kid? VIOLENT? Okay, you're pullin a fast one on us , Elle" So thanks Elle for the little vacation. Virtual school's probably pretty boring huh? No real socialization. No contact with your teachers. But I guess you don't have to worry about maniacs like me coming in and shooting up the place. And yes, sarcasm and "colorful" language adds flare to any conversation, as long as every other word isn't attacking someone. I'll laugh as some of you nitpick what I say and criticize me for it. Like you know how to "debate".

It's amazing where some of you get off saying the world would be chaos if religion died. You say morality comes from the Bible. Hm... Well, okay. I could see someone reading the Bible as an allegory and finding and interpreting moral lessons. Perhaps not all that earth-shattering, but they will say "Hm..that's pretty interesting" I guarantee you they are not going to agree with everything in there, because a lot of it is absolutely ridiculous. The only thing remotely "inspiring" in the Bible, IMO, comes from Proverbs and a few parables of Jesus of Nazareth. The whole Jesus claiming he is God turns me off a bit, but as a man Jesus is an admirable character. I was a Christian up until I was 16. I went to Church a lot, but I still had an incessant nagging at the back of my head. I happened upon Creationism and was like "This is too good to be true" and I actually bought into it for a year or so. It WAS too good to be true. I kept reading books, kept learning my science, and eventually decided to let Jesus OUT of my heart. Do not think I have no clue what I'm talking about when I trash the Bible. I am informed. All the answers cannot be found in that single book.

I do strongly feel that people do not need a god. They don't need fools shouting the eternal rant of salvation and damnation. By turning the Bible into a FACTUAL document written by God himself, it completely distorts the only message buried within its pages: Love.
We are all born with a clean slate. We are not born "sinners". No one needs to be "saved". I worship God like all of you Christians posting on here, but I do not talk to him. I do not thank him for his blessings everyday by talking to the floor, nor do I thank him when my parents work hard for their money to put food on the table and a house over our head. I worship him by studying and admiring the natural world. God is what holds an atom together. God is what makes the sun rise and the sun set, every day. God is all the beauty and the complexity of nature on the cosmic scale and the microscopic scale. He is not, and never was, a man. Sure maybe Jesus did exist, or men like Jesus, heroes, used to live. Maybe he did cure the sick, not with God magic, but with words. Everyone is always saying to not read the Bible as literal word, but what about the miracles? Does it have to defy the laws of physics? No. A miracle is opening perspectives and unlocking ideas in someone else.
God does not think. God does not judge. God does not hate, or love. God simply is. The ultimate OHM of the universe. If you don't like that idea, then "I" is God. Each one of us is the masters of our fate. The human brain is such an amazing organ. To say it did not evolve is like slapping God in the face. If God wanted anything, he wanted man to understand the world around him, even the whole of the universe. One day, a thousand years from now(if the species makes it) man will set his controls for the stars. And one day, one HOLY day, man will discover that he isn't, and never was, alone in the universe. And then even more intelligence will be found throughout the universe. Worlds upon worlds upon worlds upon worlds will be discovered, and it will be the greatest achievement of mankind. Really..who needs god when you can imagine that?

ncpacfan, what if I told you that within the human brain there is an actual GOD center? A product of evolution that predisposes humans to liken to the ideas of the supernatural, the mystical, and the miraculous. Kids are drawn in to the Bible because it's full of fun stories, all with underlying themes. And Jesus...oh do they love Jesus. Remember when your parents first told you about Heaven? There was no hell in that first discussion because that would definitely have turned a child off. The talk usually came after someone had died. Children can't always comprehend the idea of death, non-existence, so parents like to cheer them up with the Magic Kingdom in the Sky - where everybody goes when they die. There is no hurt, or hate, only love and happiness. And you live up there with all your buddies, and Jesus, and his dad, God, for all of eternity. "Oh boy! Jesus is so awesome! He loves me no matter what! And he SAVED me! Phew! I can't wait to die!" Now if that child were to grow up with only that one conversation and had never set foot in a church, he might start to have these.. thoughts. Now the parents didn't pound faith into his head while he was little, so he gathers knowledge gradually form the Torch - the teacher - and has no extinguisher - the clergy - to rain on his parade. I bet that kid will comfortably abandon the idea of religion and an afterlife after studying the natural world.
Perhaps that center for God in our brain shrinks as we get older. It is important for children to feel a sense of security in their first years, and perhaps the God center helps establish that, and like our baby teeth, bigger and better things will come along and push such things out of our head.

Now we are going so far as to say all child molesters are Christians? God is responsible for all sickness in the world? Man has to take no responsibility for any of this? AthiestCH..Yes I do read my bible. And it warns of people like you,...Because this blog has turned into nothing better than name calling and insults, I will not post again, it was fun and interesting sharing each others views until it turned into meaness and pure christian hatred, I will continue to pray for you all.. GOD BLESS, follower of CHRIST 4 ever

JM727,
You like millions of citizens of this country and others are totally missing the point. So, since you feel your are right and I'm simply wrong, I'll digress. Understand this...My god didn't put me on this Earth to convince anyone he exists or that his word is rule. He put me on this earth to be an example for others...simply put, the best person I can be. Living a life of principle and not what I think is best for everyone. I choose to follow the golden rule and it doesn't matter if someone is athiest or black or yellow or fat or skinny. They are my fellow brother & sisters and I'm going to glorify my god by serving others. If that's such a bad thing for you, so be it. But, the fact that you don't believe in what I believe doesn't alter my opinion of you or anyone else.
There's no reason people can't be taught to live a purpose driven life as opposed to settling to be average in society like mainstream America is being taught. Why is this happening? Because your Government (our government) has decided they want to be "GOD". You go ahead and be reliant on them if you choose. Be a slave if you like. But it's not happening in my world, not on my watch. In case you haven't noticed, the rights of the American people are being eroded by "our" government on our watch. You happy about that? Or are you going to argue that point too? When governments start conveniently removing the Christian based "principles" from the Constitutions they are founded on, they eventually lose their freedom. Such as what is happening right here in our own back yard and such as what HAS HAPPENED IN SOCIALIST COUNTRIES all over the world. That's a fact! Argue that too as I know you will. As I have said many times, don't complain about your rights being taken away as a citizen of this country if you're not willing to stand up and do something about it. Once again, I'll see you on the battlefield. GOD Bless.

Cyndee, I like the way you used the word 'RIGHTEOUS' in your 01/04/08 @04:15 a.m comment to explain how your child was spared death. Sleepless in Seattle? Tell your Righteous story to the children of St. Jude's Hospital. Poor little victims. You must be superior to the rest of us or maybe God just favors you. He did have his favorites you know. My favorite book is Deuteronomy where god tells the empire to go to the farthest village, rape, pillage & kill everyone including babies, children, moms, dads, grandparents, & etc. Bring back all their belongings as your own. Then go out to the nearest village to rape and pillage. Don't kill them just bring them back as your slaves. Do you actually read the bible or do you select the books that are more warm and fuzzy/cozy for you? How convenient to quote scriptures that feel all warm and cozy to you but you eliminate the ones that are horrific. For example: Noah's Arc has been made in to a fairy tale with toys and songs, etc. It is the biggest "Grimm Fairy Tail," ever created.

ncpanfan: your funny and i mean that in a nice way. i'm sorry i got upset at the "proof" comments. i guess you can understand when the proof is there for anyone to see and they choose not to how that could upset someone. i understand that chritians want everyone to hear god and that as an atheist i want everyone to know science. with that said, you are not incharge and if i want to use the word idiot then that is also my choice. morals are another christian hang up. unless it comes to the church hiding child molesters, then the morals are out the back door ! hmmm, idiot or child molester ? maybe you should spend your blog time picketing the church ? i know if science was molesting kids, i wouldn't be on here talking to you about it.

Kleej you are totally right. That's why I'm reposting exactly what you did, in case anyone missed it.
"CHRISTIANITY is the last hope for our fading nation. The proof is in the pudding. You look at any socialist country and you'll find a nation that's taken away the right to religion and replaced GOD with their government. Countries like the Soviet Union, China, Germany etc. are each a nation reliant on their government. Which means the citizens are basically slaves to their governments. There's no incentive to strive for anything above and beyond the status quo simply because there's no benefit to it. God didn't put us on this earth to be slaves, he put us on this earth to willingly serve others as we would have served onto us. It's our way of glorifying our GOD in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)
It's very important that people understand, the right to religion is everyone's choice and I respect that 100%, but, let's not forget this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles by our forefathers. Christian or not, the principles behind everything are guidelines we should follow regardless of our faith. If we all just did the right things on a daily basis and lived by the golden rule, wouldn't this country be a better place for everyone? Just for the record, I'm not a Bible pusher or out to convince anyone they should be! But, the next time you have a complaint about your rights as citizens of this great country being violated, take a good look at the constitution and bill of rights and see how your government has taken the godly principles out of it....slowly but surely. Our government and a great majority of people have no clue what truth is anymore! To them, the truth is what works for "them"! News Flash: There is no such thing as "your truth or my truth" there is only ONE TRUTH and it's in a great book which can and has been traced back 2000 years............ The truth be told! God bless all of you!"
Thanks Kleej!

"The people who wrote and signed our constitution were Godly men. The constitution was based on Judeo-Christian PRINCIPLES!" - Kleej

You missed the rest of my post(s), apparently. This has been explained. The founding fathers were not "godly" men. They believed in a god, but an indefinable one, not a Judeo-Christian one. Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, and Hamilton were all extremely critical of the bible and of organized religion in general. The people who wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights were determined to enshrine Secular principles of political freedom and human rights. They had no interest in religious ideals. That's not spinning anything, it's historical fact garnered from the letters they sent to one another, and their own public declarations.

The "principles" of which you talk were around for millenia before Moses was around, and certainly before Jesus. Christianity was a little late with its message anyway; every 'moral' message that Jesus gave was espoused by the Buddha 600 years beforehand. Again, I'm not a Buddhist, it's just a fact that Buddha lived centuries before Jesus did and gave the same basic message he did, and managed to found a religion tha