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Darius
"You really think the way this young man handled his freedom of speech is how people should stand for something?"
Yes, I do. He could have been nicer about it perhaps, but he explained that nerves was a part of his blurting certain things out. A minority opinion isn't invalidated simply because the majority doesn't accept it, or finds it discomforting. I don't know if your objection is to danneskjold's characterization of his classmates as ignoramuses or if it is about the tearing of the Bible, or both. The ad hominem was unfortunate, and if dannes is going to employ this tactic, he should perhaps study Twain for some more subtle nuances. :-) The Bible tearing was actually quite a good demonstration of what he was talking about. It is, after all, only a book, with no special powers. Another student could similarly have done the same presentation, with the exception of ripping up the Ayn Rand book. As long as the book is owned by the person destroying it, it is a perfectly lawful act.

As for the nation being based on Christianity, you are simply mistaken. I suggest you do some research into Free Masonry and the connections to our founding fathers. And since you like to read, I suggest you read the book "Liars for Jesus" which takes a good look at revisionist historians.

You people seem to have a problem distinguishing the difference between "religion" and "principles". I've never said that the constitution is a "Christian" doctrine!! If you actually took the time to read my past posts I stated clearly that not all of the fathers of the constitution were necessarily Christians! Regardless of their religion, they were INFLUENCED by the CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES! Don't paint me as the mislead person here! Read your history! Like I said, your history is what you choose it to be because of your dis-favor of the Christian religion. You only believe what you want to believe. That's fine, it truly is. You're just not getting the truth. You choose not to. The founding fathers, Christian or athiest knew that the residual effects of "Christian Principles", (NOT CHRISTIAN RELIGION) were wholesome and that people of any religious choice could live by the PRINCIPLES and just by that alone people would willingly live together as "brothers and sisters" as opposed to our society now of "me" vs "you" mentality. PRINCIPLES NEVER CHANGE! EVER! (Remember, one truth for all--->"principles"!! When a person's principles are negotiated, when a country's principles are negotiated, you lose INTEGRITY! (for clarification purposes: Integrity = Honesty) When you have no Integrity, you have no trust, when you have no trust in society, your country is on a fast track to a very dark place! Balk if you will, stand by and let it happen if you must, but, don't condemn those who are willing to stand for something and not let their "principles/integrity" be compromised for personal gain. It's called being a person of CHARACTER. Can you look in the mirror and honestly say you're one of those people? I have to work at it every day ...it doesn't come overnight. It's a lifelong learning process.

ncpanfan : i should have said i have enjoyed talking to you and any enlightened christian for that matter. i do not find your faith sad, i just want there to be more answers then just faith. there is nothing wrong with being nice, i agree. as long as the purpose is not to convert nonbelievers. this is my first blog and for good reason. i do not like to argue but, i assumed if i was going to a blog was a good place to do it. i would never say these things to someone in person unless they asked. i don't feel the need to make everyone an atheist but, i would be a liar if i didn't say it sure would be nice. at any rate i respect you as a fellow human and i am not as harsh as i sound on here. my entire life i have had to stand up for atheist in the face of many who would like to see me burn at the stake. so forgive me if i forget that not everyone is against me.

I think "In God We Trust" was put on coins around the time of the Civil War. The U.S. Mint has a history of this on its webpage that I've read before.

"In God We Trust" wasn't put on paper money until the 1950s, shortly after the phrase "under God" was inserted in the Pledge of Allegiance. "In God We Trust" is our national motto, but again this didn't happen until the 1950s. It would seem to be at odds with the first amendment, but the Courts have upheld it . It's in the courts again and we'll see what happens.

Interestingly it's been upheld because the judges have said it's patriotic and not religious; that it is secular in character. This seems disingenuous in multiple ways. It's God, what is that if not religion? At the same time, calling God a symbol of secular patriotism would seem to be as about as anti-religion as one could get.

Making "In God We Trust" the motto and adding "Under God" the pledge can easily be interpreted as divisive. E Pluribus Unum does not discriminate against anyone, "In God We Trust" excludes atheists or polytheists. Say the pledge without "Under God" and it does not exclude anyone, but add that phrase and it quickly changes the tone of who the liberty and justice is for.

darius-I'm not anti-christian, I'm just not christian. And not all atheists are t.v. loving, non-book reading types of people. Just thought you should know. Do you like generalizations?

The pope could have used his free will to not join the Hitler youth. Seems like moral relativism to me.

Darius is disillusional. He tells us to read and then vaguely rants on about how the anti-Christians this and the anti-Christians that. We are a secular nation that follows the rule of law and REASON!!! Religion is not reason. If you read Thomas Paine's Common Sense which is almost exactly what the Declaration of Independence you would know this. Paine also wrote the Age of Reason. All of these developments were a part of the renaissance which was the growth of secular humanism which puts its faith in the ability of individuals to think and reason for themselves. This is where voting comes in. It is a purely secular act. Darius should try reading Paine or Mill. I believe God was put on coins because the Anabaptists were refusing to use the currency because they actually practice "render under to Ceasar".

darius

Where in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence is Christ mentioned?

Where in the Constitution is a Creator, or God, or divine Providence mentioned.

The Constitution is where the rights are established and there is no mention of Jesus, or even a god; that is unexpected if the rights are established on Christian principles.

Those who choose to deny that our countries founding fathers established the rights of our nation based on Christian principles are fooling themselves. This is a classic example of how our history is being altered right under our noses. The anti-Christians choose to re-write history as if it never happened. The "truth" is distorted. As has been said, there is only one real truth. It's not going to be found behind the remote control of a TV set or in an anti-Christian publication, or anti-Christian internet site. The truth can be found in books that our forefathers had written dating back to that time. I understand that many anti-Christians would rather stick their heads in the sand and deny this fact and continue to spew what they "want" the truth to be. That's our society in a nutshell right there. People are raised to believe that whatever works for them, personally, is the truth. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. READ!

Justsayno: Thank you. I understand your point but I have to say that we all have hope and faith in something or someone, whether it be your spouse or significant other that you have faith in their love for you or your family or your friends or hope for your future (school, work, promotion, etc.)If someone says they love you, they can't really prove it, you take them at their word and have hope and faith in them. This is true for many situations. We all have dreams and hope that those dreams will come true and most of us have faith in ourselves that we can accomplish our goals. I hope you can see my point in this. I just don't think it should make anyone sad when someone finds comfort in their faith or hopes or dreams no matter what that source of comfort is. That is what makes us human, to feel.My dysfunctional childhood was something that took me a long time to get past and find forgiveness for all in. I promised myself that when I had a family of my own, my kids would never go through what I went through and I have kept that promise.I told my husband that when he asked me to marry him. He is a wonderful man and a great father and our children know what a happy childhood is. They have grown into wonderful young adults and we have been blessed.I have faith and hope in them that they will go further in life than I ever did. I believe they can and I believe in them. That doesn't make me sad, it makes me happy and hopeful for the future. (Although I am suffereing from the empty nest syndrome and they haven't even left yet, LOL)I hope that this helps explain my feelings somewhat more and I know you said it makes you sad but I also know you posted earlier that you have found it interesting to read the posts trying to understand the reasons why people choose to believe in God.(Not your exact words but something to that effect)I have faith in God and hope that when the end comes my faith will not have been for naught. If I am wrong then those who have told me so will be satisfied to find they were right but if I am right then my hopes and faith will carry me forward. No one knows for sure as no one can prove any of it but then again that takes us back to the fact that the choices we make are ours and ours alone and no one will ever agree with someone on everything, but that shouldn't stop us from being friends or aquaintances with others. It is the right thing to do when you treat others well and with respect because that is how we all would like to be treated. No matter what you believe or who you believe, it never hurt anyone to be nice to others. :o)

Seems like the kid was expressing a rather defensible position, one many of us have either insufficient critical capacity or overabundance of social brainwashing and conformist fear to express. His use of the bible prop - creative, the gesture has time-honored links with historical events.

At least most of us are past the practice of heretic-burnings for the moment. The Catholics rave over martyrs and their canon is replete with them, but how aware are they of the tens of centuries when Christian mobs or power structures made martyrs of those suspected of not following their dogma - countless generations of legally sanctioned cold-blooded murderers killing in the guise of claiming confidence with God.

By the way, how does one deny the educational benefits of others by broadening the dialogue? Or discriminate against an overwhelmingly large majority by speaking one's solitary critical mind? All in all, sounds like an easy mark for the ACLU or any other liberty-treasuring entity, and the stuff for which Janesville could be roundly debased from more intellectually tolerant circles.

What about the people, the individuals, who actively participated in establishing this nation? Were they Christians? The truth is that some were and some were not, of course. But even those who were not were influenced by the principles of Christianity. By examining what many of them said and wrote we gain insight into their beliefs and the source of their commitment. Many of them had been influenced by the "Great Awakening" and its' residual effect.
Benjamin Franklin, considered a deist by many, said, "He who shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world." And Thomas Jefferson, also considered a deist, said, "The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." Jefferson is even quoted as having said, "I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

We are uniquely American. We come from different cultures. Our ancestors came from England and China; Germany and Italy; Africa and South America. We come from Japan and Vietnam; from Mexico and Canada. We come from every nation of the world. We enjoy our unique backgrounds, but we are not what our ancestors were. We're Americans. We're Americans, and many of us are Christians, but for all of us, our nation was founded by Christians on Christian principles, and that's good because we know that God gives rights to everyone, including non-Christian.

Today the Ten Commandments hang from the U.S. Supreme Court courtroom, the coins of America say, "In God We Trust," and we say in the Pledge of Allegiance, "One nation under God." Time does not permit me to list more examples of how fundamentally important Christ was to our ancestors who founded this nation. Thousands of examples of Godly men and women who advocated the importance of Christian principles expressed in the Bible and who wrote the historical documents that established this nation overwhelmingly demonstrates, that from the beginning, this nation was a Christian nation. It was begun by Christians who recognized God as ruler of the universe and mankind's dependence on Him and His Gospel of salvation.

Husbandofmath, the Pope joined the Hitler Youth movement after membership was made compulsory in 1941. By contrast, he chose to be a leader of the Catholic Church.
In my town, Milton, all of the denominations worship together during all major religious holiday seasons, and they work together on several projects for the good of people of all faiths (or no faith). My church strongly urges all youth to attend worship services of each denomination during their confirmation process, and organizes a trip each year to a Synagogue in Madison (because we don’t have one).. This is not to show what they are doing wrong (they aren’t, and it isn’t suggested that they are), but to show the many facets of worship.
We believe that men are born with free will and with that free will, they might have slightly different interpretations of Christian and other worship. That doesn’t mean those different details are wrong, just different.

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school for all of my childhood. So, I will tell you that to the Catholics who raised me it is not the same. If it were you wouldn't have denominations or need conversion now would you?

The Pope was a member of the Hitler youth movement. You were unaware? So, you see the young man who ripped up the bible could grow up to be President or at least Pope.

husbandofmath- In response to your comment about having to become Catholic to have the baptism recognized...wrong again. I was married at St Mary's 5 years before I joined the Church. I was asked at the time to show the baptism certificate from my original church. That was all it took because there is"one baptism for the forgiveness of sins." That baptism is universal in Christianity.
You have now been shown by two people to be incorrect in your interpretation of Catholicism. Can you just accept that you do not fully understand the Catholic faith and move on? Must you keep trying to find a fault? I also do not understand at all your comment about ex-Nazi. Perhaps it is another of your attempts at misinformation.
While this exchange has been interesting, it would take more than words on this blog to correct your misconceptions...it would take you admitting that you do not know Catholicism and a willingness on your part to learn. I do not see either happening.

Katy, does God split hairs too or is that just you. Do you really believe that most catholics understand the nuance? You seem to be desperately searching for a grammatical loophole. They don't even understand that the Catholic church says that its a sin to discriminate and then discriminates against women by not allowing them positions in the church hierarchy. So its a sin for everyone else but not for them? How is that moral? Infallibility for an ex-Nazi, Jesus would be proud.

Katy, you are so right about the Lutherans using the same creed-and I even skimmed that statement and it didn't even think about it. As one who likes to speak his/her mind, I really lament that missed opportunity.....oh well, you put it very well yourself.

my comments on rock county residents are based on experience but, i did not say all of rock county. i live in rock county and i am not lazy,fat, dui,nascar, or smoke. there is a very large population here that falls right into what i said and you know what i am talking about.
ncpanfan: i am sorry about your childhood or in your case lack there of. i also think most people did not have a very good childhood and most are abused in some way, again not all. i find it sad that people feel they have to look to god to feel content. i'm sure there are support groups for such abuse and a trip to the spa wouldn't hurt. treating yourself like a god can make you feel worthy,happy, and excepted also.

I have been content to log in and read the comments being posted here to follow how far afield the discussion has gotten from the original premise of the student's speech. And I have not been disappointed. Now I am compelled to similarly stray from the topic at hand to respond to husbandofmath's commonly held misinterpretation of the Apostle's Creed as recited during Catholic Mass. The Creed indeed states "We believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church..." with exactly the spelling indicated, with a lower case "c" for the word catholic. This designates the more common definition of the word catholic: "Universal or appealing to the general population." When the word is capitolized, then it takes on the meaning of the Catholic Church. If I am not mistaken, the Lutheran service uses the exact same Apostle's Creed. This is your friendly mini-Catholic lesson for the week.:)

Rush: Yes I knew the theory but considering the childhood I had you wouldn't know it. I was molested, raped and had an acolholic, abusive father but I can tell you that as angry as I was and hurt no matter what I did to make things better nothing worked til I found God. You may not understand it and I am not telling you have to believe what I believe but I can tell you that I found peace when I found God and I found forgiveness for myself as well as others. It is just how God and faith make me feel. Everyone has or does different things that make them feel happy or good or better, in my case it was God who made me feel loved and like I mattered and my faith gives me hope. It is my choice to believe in God and I do. I don't force anyone else to, as that is their own choice but I don't feel I should be ridiculed or called names because of my beliefs. I hope that makes sense to you without making you feel the need to make fun of me.

Just for the record, I don't smoke, I'm not overly fat, I'm definately not lazy and I do follow NASCAR on occasion. Oh, and the last part, about "getting off my butt and doing something about it"..... I have that covered. I'm very proactive when it comes to that. Something many obviously would not understand in here and of course I can give several examples of those who do understand it. I've read the posts from Kleej and I'm intrigued to know what this person does! You've taken your shots with alot of class. Whatever you do, don't stop doing it. We need more people with your conviction doing the right things. Thinking and choosing to be different is always a target for opposition. Especially when it's for something noble and of a positive nature. I'm in the fight with you.

I assume you include yourself as one of the "fat, lazy, nascar, smoking,DUI, rock county residents".

this blog has gone on for 3 weeks because atheist and god lovers have been talking about why they are for or against god. i'm sure it could go on forever.i for one have enjoyed talking to the god lovers and trying to understand why they believe. as for the student, i wish the rest of the fat, lazy, nascar, smoking,DUI, rock county residents would get off their rather large fast food eating asses and stand up for something in public. it's easy to put this student down but, i ask you all "what was the last thing you stood up for in a public venue" ?

Rush 2112
danneskjold's rants in this site don't exactly put much validity to the statement: "Dannes was made out to look bad in this article."

People of integrity are expected to be believed, and when they're not, they let time prove them right. Let's see what danneskjold is made of.

karenincarolina,

You really think the way this young man handled his freedom of speech is how people should stand for something?
Maybe that's how George Washington should have handled the war against England the same way! Maybe that's what Winston Churchill should have done when Hitler tried turning Great Britain into a Nazi death camp! What "danneskjold" did wasn't taking a stand! It's called lashing out at a society that's desperate for leadership! (Just like Kleej said)
Mainstream America is so misguided due to the media that's being injected into the minds of our generations of people that there isn't even a sense of reality anymore. TV has become our country's culture as opposed to the printed word. In short, people don't read anymore! The ones that do, read garbage. Why? Because of corporate America!!! It sells!!! Same with TV! Why are there no moral programs on anymore? Because they don't sell!!! When money replaces morality as the driving force for our country, we're doomed. We're headed in that direction now! Adults need to kick off their lead boots of denial and wake up! Our future generations are counting on us.

This thread has been active for nearly 3 weeks. Can we just put this to bed, already? No school is perfect, no one is perfect. Parker has issues, Craig has issues as do the surrounding communities and their schools. Get off it already, it's not healthy and not worth your time to sit here and belly ache about it!

Oh, and if I'm an adult shame on me? If you're an adult SHAME ON YOU attacking a highschool student without truly knowing all the facts. I hope it helps you sleep at night :).

Yes, ihavealife, where exactly have you heard that he 'approached her in the hallway'? Were you there? Just another example of people believing whatever they are told. This Gazette article was just jazzed up yellow journalism, and anything outside of it is based on rumor. Dannes was made out to look bad in this article.

Deliberately choosing to be blind (blind faith). Not a choice I would make in my life time. Listening to those who chose it and try lamely to defend it is obnoxious. I find this whole conversation rather redundant & boring. Good luck to you danneskjold. I'd get out of here too if I were you. Don't we have better things to do at this point? Good bye. :?)

MikeF, you had to become a Catholic to have your baptism recognized as Catholic. Had you stayed Methodist it would not have been. Do you not state the Apostles Creed at mass and does it not exclude those who are not Catholic?

Darius, what are you talking about? It sounds like ancestry worship to me. Sacrifices for liberty are just that. You dishonor liberty and their sacrifices by making their deaths some sacred act. In a society that has liberty and equality at its heart the only thing sacred are the individual decisions made by people to read or not. Sounds to me like you would like to re-educate all those not like you comrade.

Darius
Someone did stand up. But his message of independent thought was so foreign to the status quo, it was taken to be a threat, and he was sent to see a shrink.

"Their baptism and no one else's. Not other Christians. Just theirs."
FALSE. I was baptized in a Methodist church, but joined the Catholic Church about 10 years ago. I was not re-baptized, the church accepted my CHRISTIAN baptism as sufficient and legitimate.
husbandofmath - From your choice of words, including the repeated use of "their" I presume you are not Catholic. I would suggest learning a little more about the Catholic faith before you misrepresent it again.

I believe janeskjold is in the same boat as alot of our younger generation are. Forget about the religion part. It's society in general. I think the biggest problem in our culture is the fact that so much junk is being taught to our young. Including what schools are teaching. History for instance, so much of what actually happened is being either taken out of context or simply taken out period. Our children need to know our countries history! The real history and not just the parts that our society of people have chosen to teach. The younger generation and much of the older generation have stopped reading for one thing. I'm not talking about Sports Ill. or John Grisham novels either! I'm talking about books that pertain to our American History. The one thing that is hard for me to take is the fact that so many people in this country feel no sense of pride or have an inkling as to the sacrifices that so many of our forefathers have made to give people like you and me the freedom to come in sites like these and give our opinions. Let us never forget the George Washington's, the Ben Franklins, the Martin Luther Kings, the men and women who lost their lives in the wars over the past centuries and those families who still to this day grieve for them. Our younger generation and those who choose to bury their heads in the sand need to know what these people gave up for us! No way can these people have all died in vein. Shame on our society of people for allowing that to happen. It's not the childrens fault either! It's the people who choose to stand around and do nothing and allow it to keep happening. There's no integrity anymore in this once great country. Where have all the leaders gone? Can't someone step up? Can't we all just make a decision to step up?

Beware of those teachers of religion! They love to wear the robes of the rich and scholarly, and have everyone bow to them as they walk through the markets.They love to sit in the best seats in the synagogues, and at the places of honor at banquets-but they shamelessly cheat widows out of their homes, then, to cover up the kind of men they really are, they pretend to be pious by praying love prayers in public. Because of this their punishment will be all the greater."
Words of Jesus Christ, Mark 12:38-40
The Bible has nothing to do with religions.
I don't blame the kid for asking questions and having a mind of his own. He has questions about this life and is looking for answers outside of what he was taught by his family, same as I did at 17. It took me 10 years after that to get it, while fighting it every step of the way, but like that old, outdated book says: "train a child in the way he should go, so when he's old he won't depart from it."

"You go ahead and be reliant on them if you choose. Be a slave if you like." - Kleej

It's quite convenient to absolutely ignore every point that is brought up against you by simply saying "you don't understand." It's quite evident that you have nothing with which to back yourself up, so you resort to mounting what you perceive as your moral high ground--a "high ground" which is drenched in the blood of the millions of innocents slaughtered at the hands of the adherents of your religion.

Unless you have straight facts, and not just the hypocrisy of what Thomas Jefferson called "the ridiculous illusion of the cry of blind faith", you have nothing to argue, and nothing to contribute, frankly.

Repeating the facts of what Catholics state as a matter of their faith is bashing? So, stating that the Nazis killed Gay people is Nazi bashing? I thought the truth would set you free? Obviously not.

And they walk among us.

So now "husband", are you turning this into a Catholic bashing? Let it go, every religion thinks they are the "one" and can be attacked individually here by their specific beliefs. This subject has beat beaten to death and now you are trying to get a rise out of the biggest group of christians.

"Can't we all just get along"?

There are basically two kinds of belief. Religious belief which is based exclusively on "faith". And there is scientific belief which is based on empirically based evidence. Some of this evidence takes its form in data such as when experimental physicists create experiments that prove theoretical physicists correct or in error. For example, there was a big stir in the 90's when some scientists claimed to have created "Cold Fusion" however no one else could repeat their experiments and get the same results. So, that was a false lead. Some forms of science require a consensus because experimentation isn't possible or isn't entirely exact. Some of these fields include geology, archeology, climatology and many more. However, the scientists that work in these fields still have to publish their observations and conclusions for others to read and critique. Empiricism is the foundation of our modern secular society. Everything that is engineered, including our cars, homes, computers, internet, medicine and form of government is empirically based. Voting itself is part of the trust that empiricism derives from an individuals ability to makes their own decisions based on their own observations. If we were a religious based society we would still have a king whose authority was based on the divine right of monarchs which was the tradition at that time. Notice the founders specifically used "Creator" which could be your parents and not God.

Religion requires no such rigorous standards which is why it has given us nothing except self-righteousness. Longer lives? No. More food? No. Better medicines? No. Every time religion has tried to discredit science it has lost. If religion was a product being sold? It would be a fraud because it cannot prove that its product works.

Finally, inside every Catholic church, every week, all the Catholics stand up and recite what is the "Apostles Creed". This is their statement of belief, what they say is true. It says near the end "We believe in one holy catholic apostolic church. One baptism for the forgiveness of sins..." Their baptism and no one else's. Not other Christians. Just theirs.

Ncpfan, you may not have turned to God until almost 20, but is it not true that you knew of the theory of God your whole life before that? If you'd grown up never hearing of God in your life until that age the idea probably would have seemed farfetched.

"DOES ANYONE FIND IT ALARMING THAT danneskjold WENT A A RANT FOR 5 HOURS LAST NIGHT????? GET THIS KID SOME HELP,IF NOT FOR HIM, BUT THE OTHER STUDENTS AT PARKER HIGH SCHOOL!!! HIS ACTIONS ARE OUT OF CONTROL.I REALLY FEEL THAT HE HAS BEEN BULLIED(FROM WHAT HE HAS SAID IN POSTS)AND HE IS GOING TO EXPLODE."

ihavealife, you have no life. I can't believe you said that. You need help, judging someone like that. If a bunch of people singled you out wouldn't you be a little pissed? Over the internet you can't hear the words so how can you assume he's saying them in a threatening way? I don't care what kind of 'signs' you detect from his words, you don't KNOW him. You are concerned for other students' safety, and it's not a bad thing, but you're jumping to outrageous conclusions. NO ONE IS GOING TO BE KILLED OR HURT SO GET OFF IT, seriously!!!!!!!! Listen to yourself.

Justsayno: Okay with what you said but we must remember that there are cops, teachers, neighbors who have turned out to be child molestors as well and not all of them are christians.
Danne: Just so you know and this may be a big suprise to you I did not turn to God until I was almost 20 so there went yor childhood theory down the drain...

danneskjold... just out of curiosity, how was ripping the bible showing that you were a free thinker?

cyndee is not posting anymore, wow there are miracles. well cyndee,i never said "all" christians. just the ones that attend a church that they know has been molesting children and doing NOTHING about it. you could have church in the parking lot until the offender is put in jail and stop puting money in the collection plates of know child molesters.

danneskjold
Though I do not agree with all your conclusions you are a well studied young man and can hold your own in an intellectual discussion with any one on these posts, regardless of age. I can tell from your comments you understand Christology and have given much thought to your opinions.
I commend you for that for what its worth.

JM727
You mentioned that Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of Buddhism said the same things Jesus said only 600 years earlier. Well you at least have the time he lived right. Though there are some similarities, Golden Rule, reap what you sow among them, they differ on their main teachings. The founder of Buddhism says life is suffering and to release ourselves from reincarnations we must cease to desire. He does not speak of a personal God nor is Nirvana a place, nor does he offer forgiveness nor eternal life or say any of those things are found in him. Whereas, Jesus speaks of a personal God who is our Father, of heaven as a place, of Himself as the way to God and the means to forgiveness and eternal life. I think there are many good things taught in Buddhism but to say that Jesus and Gautama taught the same things is not true.

When I 1st wrote that comment I did not take into account how much you have thought this out and I was taking it literal as a smug, see I win example.

JM727
Now onto question regarding the lineage of Jesus. That is an excellent question, thank you for thinking of me. The same question was posted before but I did not bite on it because of the topic of the blog and because the answer, though easy. is rather difficult to articulate in a short amount of space and might be very dull to some. There long answer would take several "pages" so here is the short answer to your question as to why it does not appear (on the surface) that Jesus is the direct descendent of the Davidic line as is necessary to fulfill Messianic prophecies.
First the names of women were not mentioned in genealogies. If you put the genealogies in Matthew and Luke in a juxtaposition you will find a distinction as to who was the father of Joseph, Matthew cites it as being a man named Jacob and Luke a man named Eli or Heli. This is because there was no word for father in law, which according
to the Talmud of Jerusalem (Talmud Yerushalmi) is who Eli was. He was Joseph's father-in-law, Mary's father. Eli's ancestry is traced to David so therefore Jesus is in the Davidic line. To quote Forrest Gmp, "and that's all I have to say about that.."

JM727
You addressed my alter ego bibledude in your Jan 4, 2008 at 12:26 p.m post how can Jesus be the Messiah when the Messiah comes from the line of David and no such lineage is found (apparently) in the genealogies of Matthew and Luke. I understand this topic is not the subject of this forum but since this question has surfaced twice and this time I was asked directly to respond I thought to be polite that I should respond. If it bores any of you I apologize in advance.
Before I answer I'd like to briefly address the subject of Bible contradictions if I may. I will use the most important event of the New Testament, the resurrection of Jesus Christ to illustrate a point.
There are apparent discrepancies in the Synoptic gospels accounts of this event. Matthew' and Marks gospel state one angel and Luke's two. This then becomes the basis on which to discredit the Bibles account of the Resurrection. There is an answer to this though I will not elaborate on it for my purposes here are to illustrate a point. In the account of the events at PHS there have been some contradictions in the story. The paper says one thing, another eye witness another and the young man corrects them by stating what really happened. Though there are apparent discrepancies in the story all agree on key points. There were pages torn from a Bible to make a point,
this caused some to be offended, disciplinary action was taken by the school, etc. My point is this, on the surface I see contradictions (and they have explanations) but the accounts agree on the main facts.
The discrepancies do not mean the events at Parker did not happen or are made up. Likewise, pointing out minor discrepancies in the scriptures do not negate the main truths the writers are communicating. There are discrepancies but more importantly there is agreement, there was an empty tomb, there was a proclamation that Christ was risen from the dead, there were appearances of the risen Christ, etc. I'd like to say more but that will suffice for now.

danneskjold, my comment was in relation to your 10:41 comment. At the risk of not using my brain because I agree with you, yes I tend to come off as a teacher. If you look back at my comments I do not address many of the other commentors... for a reason...

As you see, I too see some of the other comments as not thinking through and weighing evidence. In your comments I see someone who is thinking, not just blind faith, but thinking.

When the other commentors were slinging names and accusations at you, I again had a wall come up and dismissed their point. It is what I do to weed out the difference of good debate vs I don't have any good defense so I will name call. My athiest comment did not state that I called you an athiest, but stated that in my view an individual does not represent the group.

Again, I did not address other comments because I've heard that. I do enjoy your comments because it is not the same ol' message but as stated before believe the message is lost when it is mud-slinging.

If this wall thing is just my hang-up, so be it. But as evidenced by many of the comments others have the same issue.

danneskjold, it is amazing how mis-informed you can be. Please show me where I posted all those accusing comments you made about me.

Trying to incite??? NO I just shake my head and walk out of the room when my kids do this and let them rant.

danneskjold,
i seriously like love everything you say. everyone is CRAZY if they are saying you don't think for yourself. obviously you do & you're not an "impressionable teenager" they are just mad because they are probably old and are going to die soon, and OH NO if there isn't a god what do they have to look forward to? NOTHING this is it. quit living your life like an idiot and live it how you want. because after you die, that's it. but if thinking about an eternal afterlife makes you content, then whatever, you're not going to live much longer anyway. but don't listen to me, i'm probably also an impressionable teenage who is going to be a horrible role model for kids around the world

danneskjold: I enjoyed your 7:27, 7:43 and 8:13 comments. I was caught up in the information and ideas you presented and you had me thinking back to when I was a teen. We need more of that...

Plese take a look at your writing of these and then the following posts you had. There is a definite shift that puts a wall up for the readers to have to overcome to get to your message.

If your objective is to get your viewpoint out, one style works. If your objective is to incite the other works...

CYNDEE,
I'm with you. Those recent posts by daniskjold totally prove my point. There's an example of the leadership that's totally lacking in society. The disconnected generation. Just duplicating all the wrong that they're taught and expected to go out into society as adults and set a good example for the next generation. If this is the future generation of people we have to carry the torch for this country, we are in serious trouble. Phillipians 1:3 to all my fellow brothers and sisters! God bless.

Now we are going so far as to say all child molesters are Christians? God is responsible for all sickness in the world? Man has to take no responsibility for any of this? AthiestCH..Yes I do read my bible. And it warns of people like you,...Because this blog has turned into nothing better than name calling and insults, I will not post again, it was fun and interesting sharing each others views until it turned into meaness and pure christian hatred, I will continue to pray for you all.. GOD BLESS, follower of CHRIST 4 ever

JM727,
You like millions of citizens of this country and others are totally missing the point. So, since you feel your are right and I'm simply wrong, I'll digress. Understand this...My god didn't put me on this Earth to convince anyone he exists or that his word is rule. He put me on this earth to be an example for others...simply put, the best person I can be. Living a life of principle and not what I think is best for everyone. I choose to follow the golden rule and it doesn't matter if someone is athiest or black or yellow or fat or skinny. They are my fellow brother & sisters and I'm going to glorify my god by serving others. If that's such a bad thing for you, so be it. But, the fact that you don't believe in what I believe doesn't alter my opinion of you or anyone else.
There's no reason people can't be taught to live a purpose driven life as opposed to settling to be average in society like mainstream America is being taught. Why is this happening? Because your Government (our government) has decided they want to be "GOD". You go ahead and be reliant on them if you choose. Be a slave if you like. But it's not happening in my world, not on my watch. In case you haven't noticed, the rights of the American people are being eroded by "our" government on our watch. You happy about that? Or are you going to argue that point too? When governments start conveniently removing the Christian based "principles" from the Constitutions they are founded on, they eventually lose their freedom. Such as what is happening right here in our own back yard and such as what HAS HAPPENED IN SOCIALIST COUNTRIES all over the world. That's a fact! Argue that too as I know you will. As I have said many times, don't complain about your rights being taken away as a citizen of this country if you're not willing to stand up and do something about it. Once again, I'll see you on the battlefield. GOD Bless.

Cyndee, I like the way you used the word 'RIGHTEOUS' in your 01/04/08 @04:15 a.m comment to explain how your child was spared death. Sleepless in Seattle? Tell your Righteous story to the children of St. Jude's Hospital. Poor little victims. You must be superior to the rest of us or maybe God just favors you. He did have his favorites you know. My favorite book is Deuteronomy where god tells the empire to go to the farthest village, rape, pillage & kill everyone including babies, children, moms, dads, grandparents, & etc. Bring back all their belongings as your own. Then go out to the nearest village to rape and pillage. Don't kill them just bring them back as your slaves. Do you actually read the bible or do you select the books that are more warm and fuzzy/cozy for you? How convenient to quote scriptures that feel all warm and cozy to you but you eliminate the ones that are horrific. For example: Noah's Arc has been made in to a fairy tale with toys and songs, etc. It is the biggest "Grimm Fairy Tail," ever created.

ncpanfan: your funny and i mean that in a nice way. i'm sorry i got upset at the "proof" comments. i guess you can understand when the proof is there for anyone to see and they choose not to how that could upset someone. i understand that chritians want everyone to hear god and that as an atheist i want everyone to know science. with that said, you are not incharge and if i want to use the word idiot then that is also my choice. morals are another christian hang up. unless it comes to the church hiding child molesters, then the morals are out the back door ! hmmm, idiot or child molester ? maybe you should spend your blog time picketing the church ? i know if science was molesting kids, i wouldn't be on here talking to you about it.

"The people who wrote and signed our constitution were Godly men. The constitution was based on Judeo-Christian PRINCIPLES!" - Kleej

You missed the rest of my post(s), apparently. This has been explained. The founding fathers were not "godly" men. They believed in a god, but an indefinable one, not a Judeo-Christian one. Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, and Hamilton were all extremely critical of the bible and of organized religion in general. The people who wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights were determined to enshrine Secular principles of political freedom and human rights. They had no interest in religious ideals. That's not spinning anything, it's historical fact garnered from the letters they sent to one another, and their own public declarations.

The "principles" of which you talk were around for millenia before Moses was around, and certainly before Jesus. Christianity was a little late with its message anyway; every 'moral' message that Jesus gave was espoused by the Buddha 600 years beforehand. Again, I'm not a Buddhist, it's just a fact that Buddha lived centuries before Jesus did and gave the same basic message he did, and managed to found a religion that has never been responsible for any war or mass killings, which is more than Judaism, Christianity and Islam can say.

I'm sorry, but ignoring every argument and historical and scientific fact and simply shouting "faith" is the mark of a reason-deficient madman, not of someone who knows what they're speaking about. If you're not even going to engage in a reasonable discussion, why on earth are you wasting your time here? If your faith is that strong, you've no reason to be on these boards. You would have no reason whatsoever to even be discussing this, since it wouldn't bother you and would have no effect on you.

Rush: Interesting take on all this but have you ever stopped to think what would happen if there were no rules and everyone could do whatever they wanted? Total mayhem. Yes you may not agree with all the rules but they are there for a reason. Manners, conscience, whatever you want to call it, I am glad they exist. I would not want to live in a world without them even if I don't agree with all of them.

Also, I remember when I was in Middle School only three years ago, and the two before it, once and a while a man would come while we stood outside and hand out little orange bibles...He never got any crap for what he did. Students would rip those up and say they were stupid. Nothing happened. Granted he never said YOU HAVE TO TAKE THESE BIBLES! Nonetheless it is kind of on the same grounds as all of this.

The world is never going to be perfect. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, or any other religion can never save the world. No one will EVER all believe the same way. It's not fair to say your religion is the best one, or the correct one.

It's not fair to say someone is distasteful for calling you names. Who establishes this 'taste' that is the appropriate 'taste'. How can one even say there can BE manners? Every human thinks differently and has a different idea of what manners should be so why did some random group of people get to say some way is the right way and we base our life after it. In reality THEY must have been God because we've done what they told us to.

Thanks Cynndee. I have talked with others on here who don't share the same view as me but they have been respectful to me and I to them. They have made valid points without insulting others. We may not agree on everything but we respect each other's rights to choose their beliefs. There is no need to insult others to make a point. Making a point is more effective if it is done in a civilized manner and if everyone remembers that then you have a good debate. I have a couple of friends who don't believe in God. I was shocked when I found out because in all the time I had known them they had never said anything. They said they just don't believe and there is no proof and wanted to know why I believed. I said I can't prove God to you. I can only tell you I have faith in Him and how He makes me feel. They said we can't prove he doesn't exist or that evolution is true, it is just how we feel. That was the end of it. They didn't berate me or put me down or call me names and we still are friends to this day. We may not all agree with everything someone does or believes but that doesn't mean we don't love them or they aren't our friends. Every relationship has disagreements and true friends work through those and accept others as we want to be accepted.What a boring place the world would be if we all thought and felt the same. I have noticed that most of the insults on here are one-sided. I wonder why?

justsaynotomath...why do you have to call people idiots or state they are ignorant,just because they don't agree with you....I don't think ncpanfan is being an idiot for asking what has made you believe the way you do.

justsaynotomath...Why would I want to bother reading books against my creator...I didn't come from a fish! I know very well who my creator is and where I will be upon death...AGAIN I say FAITH is the answer, if you don't have it YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND ...Its funny but when a Christian gives their point of view they are called ignorant, pushy or hiding behind a book, Well that book has been around for thousands of years and could not be made to go away, so you won't make it go away either,

That is redundant idiot thank you, and thanks for the insult again. You say I am an idiot for asking for proof and yet you haven't offered me any solid absolute proof. There are situations every day that require proof for people to believe so I guess the world is full of idiots and our courts and judges and prosecutors are idiots too because they ask for proof to find a criminal innocent or guilty?

Kleej

"the Christian based principles are what have made this country so great"

Which principles are you referring to that are purely Christian? Opposition to lying, cheating, stealing, etc (you've mentioned these in other posts) are common to all major world religions. When it comes to killing the world religions usually have principles that justify it given circumstances.

Vague references to a Creator and God are not Judeo-Christian. Such conceptions (of powerful supernatural creator(s)) are nearly universal among human societies. I appreciate what is humane and good about religious principles because their ubiquity strikes me as evidence that they are grounded in human experience. The trouble seems to arise when believers forget the message and worship the creed.

just because my long finger nails hit the wrong key or i don't make my first letter a capital and so on.... who gives a crap ? this is a blog not a school paper. texting and instant messages abreviate everything but, you wouldn't understand it so it must be wrong ? it's not like i am asking for "Proof" over and over again, like a redundent idiot.

Beach,
I'm not talking about an opinion about a "belief"! I'm talking about opinion regarding "truth"! Opinion's are fine, but, it's just that an opinion. The truth is always the truth. It's not a part-time thing.
The problem in society is there is too much opinion and not enough truth. It's called the disconnected generation. The media in this country, TV, radio, magazine publications available to youths with adult content etc. is poisoning the generations in this country. Should the future of this country and the false sense of reality that our children (and adults) are living in be compromised by the garbage out there just so the corporate world can have their "piece of the pie"? Corporate American greed and the mass garbage media out there is ruining our generations. The younger the generations, the more the media becomes the reality and the truth becomes a distant memory. This is called the truth of the matter! Everytime our children turn on a TV or grab a controller for their video games, they are being educated! Everytime an adult does the same thing, they are being educated. If you happen to be a couch potato, sorry to break the news to you, but it's the truth! If you don't agree with that, why do commercials exist? Why is vulgar language acceptable on shows? Because it sells!! Good moral, ethical type programming doesn't sell, therefore corporate america must dummy down to society and put their negative garbage in peoples heads so they can earn the almighty dollar! It's a travesty, plain and simple!

opinions about BELIEFS shouldn't hurt people and if they do hurt them, then the people are weak and obviously don't have strong beliefs. they shouldn't let what i say bother them. IT'S AN OPINION!

Too many people out there with opinions that end up hurting others because of just that, uneducated "opinion". I don't have any problem with someone disagreeing with any thing I say or think. At least read enough or get the facts to know why you disagree. Same applies to everyday life. Too much talk and not enough action out there!

JM727,
The people who wrote and signed our constitution were Godly men. The constitution was based on Judeo-Christian PRINCIPLES! I never said based on Christian faith! Principles never change. The methodology is what changes. Here's the point, the principles are not being honored, taught, or even acknowledged in mainstream society. My brother is an admitted athiest and feels he shouldn't live by the "principles" laid out in the ten commandments just because they are Christian rooted. Muslim isn't my religion of choice, yet, they teach the same "principles". Just because I'm not of Muslim faith doesn't mean they're not good principles to live by. This isn't about religion as a whole. But, since the bleeding heart, disconnected generations have been evolving without any "principled truth" in their lives, they've come to the conclusion that the only truth out there is what works for them! This country is becoming in large an individualistic society of couch potatoes and tater tots (to put it bluntly) Am I of Christian faith, you bet I am. Do I expect anyone else to be, absolutely not. Do I expect others to treat me as I would them? You better believe it. And those who don't believe that's a truth to live by, I'll see you on the battlefield. It's called "character"! Leadership! It's called doing what it right regardless of the consequences. What's right is right. That's why this country was named the United States of America, not the Individualistic States of America!

Yep give me the missing link and I will be satisfied and a believer....

"The first fossil remains are of very simple living things. As the strata get more recent, the variety and complexity of life increase (although not at a uniform rate). And no human fossils have ever been found except in the most superficial layers of the earth (e.g., battlefields, graveyards, flood deposits, and so on). In all the countless geological excavations and inspections (for example, of the Grand Canyon), no one has ever come up with a genuine fossil remnant which goes against this general principle (and it would only take one genuine find to overturn this principle)."
do you understand that or do you need MORE proof that humans are here because of evolution, not some magic man in the sky?

Oh and by the way I see you didn't give me that definite proof I asked for!

justsayno: Are they going to school to learn grammar and punctuation? Sorry that the likes of me scare you but that a kid can insult others and that is okay. What a messed up world!

"However, the truth is the truth. Period."

Quite so! And the truth is that religion has nothing to do with the laws and ideas that America was based on. That's not opinion, it's historical fact. If you think religion was the first time that ideas that it was bad to kill people, to steal things, were introduced, your ignorance is on an almost incomprehensible level. Ancient civilizations and kingdoms that existed thousands of years before Christianity and Judaism included these ideas in their own code of law. In terms of content and historica context, there's nothing ground-breaking or unique about the message preached by the aforementioned religions.

ncpanfan: i hope to always be a student but, at the present time i am a 36 year old stay at home mother of 3 children. in fact i have to stay home to ensure my children are not exposed to the likes of you, until they are old enough to understand they free to not believe what people like you profess to be fact. so maybe you should rethink what you believe to be true.
since your belife that i was a student turned out to be wrong.

"can you argue that teaching people not to lie, steal, kill, cheat, etc. is a bad thing?" (kleej)
well that is a pretty stupid question. of course those are not bad things. They can also be taught without the bible! WEIRD, i know. i knew all of those things were wrong before i even picked up a bible. the word of god didn't teach me not to lie or kill. i don't want someone to lie to me or kill me, so i'm not going to do it to someone else. you see how it works?

Godly concepts cannot be taken out of the Constitution and Bill of rights when they were not present to begin with. The founding documents of the nation were fervently based in the secular idealism of the Enlightenment. Where references to divity are made, they are the work of a small group of minorities or individuals who openly threatened to "Bury the dream of America now and for all time," as the Rev. Lymon Hall said, if a token reference to their own personal beliefs was not included. So, to those who contend that America will die due to its failing religiosity, the opposite is true: it was the fanatically religious who threatened to strangle the newborn nation.

With regards to the person who commented that Jesus' carried Mary's blood, yes, that's correct. And that's exactly why the most basic tenet of Jesus' birth is an irreconcilable contradiction: it doesn't matter that Jesus carried Mary's blood. The bible states that the Messiah must be a direct blood descendent of King David. The Bible also states that it is JOSEPH who is a descendent of David, not Mary. In fact, the gospels give two highly contradictory versions of Jesus' lineage, stretching back through Joseph's family. The bible sets itself up for this. Either Jesus was born of Joseph and so was not god, or he was born of god, and so did not have the blood of David in him, and so was not the Messiah. Well, bibledude, which is it? Which do you prefer, cyndee and fldpan? Either way, the entire foundation of modern Chistianity is proven false.

The kid obviously was out of line with the words he used; but he is not a danger to anyone, and to suggest so is a hyperbolic exaggeration of the most base and foul nature. Just because he does not believe in your faith and offended some people does not make him a violent person. He was crass, vulgar and rude, but he did not infringe on anyone's rights, and he certainly was not acting as a danger to anyone. From his comments on this page, it seems clear that he's somewhat deficient in the ability to have a reasoned debate, but he has done nothing legally wrong here. There's no basis for this story to even exist, except for the fact that some people took offense and sought publicity for themselves. One assumes that if a student had berated those who do not buy into organized religion, and called them ignorant, there would be no such hem and haw.

Wow most of the people on this are crazy. I have been reading these for a while and i think it is insane how many people are getting angry over this. A kid ripped a bible in class to PROVE A POINT not to get a stir out of the christians. If you are truly Christian the just drop it. The kid is not going to change his views because there is really no proof of a god. If people want to believe it, i’m not stopping them. I mean whatever, if it gives people a reason to live and makes them feel better about their lives, then go for it.

AND all of the stuff people are saying on here about danneskjold hiding behind his username is true. Of course he doesn’t want to say his name, because probably doesn’t want all of the attention. But wait, did you all say earlier that he is just an attention-hungry teenager?? All of the “Christians” on here are bashing him just as much as he is bashing them… so what’s the big deal? He just doesn’t believe in god. Do you push all of your beliefs on Muslims? No.
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." –Richard Dawkins
It makes me mad just how closed-minded Christians can be. Why do you people believe in god is the question that should be asked. Is it because your mommy and daddy did and now you have to? Or is it because you read the bible and are afraid to burn for eternity? We can all be good people without god, and without the bible. People aren’t murders just because the bible tells them not to be. They aren’t murders because its common sense. Ya know, the golden rule.. treat others the way you want to be treated. I can Christian bash all I want because I don’t believe it. If a Christian wants to bash my beliefs, go for it. I’m not going to make a big deal about it and cry to my parents like Elle did.
Why don’t you all just go be good Christians and pray for him!

LEAVE the belief aspect out of the equation for a second here. Christian or non-Christian, believer or non-believer, the Christian based principles are what have made this country so great for so long because it was founded on those principles. Whether you're athiest, agnostic or whatever, can you argue that teaching people not to lie, steal, kill, cheat, etc. is a bad thing??? If you don't think these principles are the cornerstone values that should REMAIN implemented in our society, you are simply part of the problem in our culture. That's not a "shot" at anyone, it's just a fact. It's called reality and it's real hard for some people to face. I understand that! However, the truth is the truth. Period.

Can't you argue a point without guessing where a person is, what they are doing? Ridiculous. People are always going "you're at work, you shouldn't be on here" or "you're in school". Worry about your own life.

jsutsayno: Like I said PROVE to me that I came from a fish. If you cannot prove it to me then it is my CHOICE not to believe that. I thought this whole thing was supposed to be about our rights???? I have the right to not believe in evolution until you can PROVE it to me and don't tell me to read the books. I know, I know. I also know this debate has been discussed many times in my lifetime and there is a missing link which is why there is no ABSOLUTE PROOF. I want you to show me the proof.By the way are you in school right now? I believe if you are it is against school policy to be accessing the internet for reasons other than your class??? Wait, I said I believe it is. I could be wrong but I know for a fact it is that way at my kids' school. They sign and we as parents sign a form stating what is and isn't allowed and the consequences of abuse.

ncpanfan: are you kidding ? science is based on fact! like the fact that the earth is 4.5 billion years old ! like my user name says religions "just say no to math". all life as we know it came from the ocean, you were once a fish ! live with it ! own it ! and stop making excuses as to why there is a missing link. you are the missing link. "cyndee" you should try reading some science books or listening to NPR. hiding behind "the book" doesn't make it ok to ignore and entire library of books. instead try reading the thousands of books written by doctors and scientist. the bible word for word is just a waste of space.

Liberalmama-He was punished for the vulgarity's, insults, disrespectful and frightening (to some anyway) way he gave the speech, not because of the book he tore up. It could have been Huckleberry Finn and they would/shoulda done the same.

How can a public school -paid for with the tax dollars of people from all religions- punish a student for ripping the pages out of a book! Was the book on loan from Parker's library? If not, what does it matter if he destroyed it?

For many people, including myself, the bible is simply a book with no special meaning or importance. I can't believe that the school system is allowing Mr. Carlson's personal religious beliefs to be imposed on a student who may or may not share those same beliefs! The only thing wrong with what that student did was to bring a bible to school in the first place. By punishing a student for not holding a specific religious book to some higher standard is basically saying that he deserves punishment for not being a "Christian".

If a staff member, or other students want to be part of a school where the bible has special importance, there are several very good Christian schools in Janesville. But descrimination and punishment for someone not holding the same beliefs should not be in OUR public school system!

Danneskjold: PROVE evolution to me then!!!! Where is the missing link that even scientists admit is there??? Once again let me point out that not once have I insulted you or called you names but once again there you go spouting off more insults which is why you got in trouble in the first place!!!!!!!!!!Can you not have a debate without insulting people and yes I know that is your right to do so but that doesn't mean you should. I am so thankful I don't have disrespectful children like you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And NO I am not talking about what you did at school but how you are acting on here which leads me to think if you insult so freely here then I am sure you insulted someone there.Go ahead and insult me some more because that makes you so happy and such a "big" grown up person and your friends love to laugh about it but that doesn't make you a better person than me or anyone else. The world is full of many diverse people with different views and beliefs and even though you may not agree with them it still doesn't give you the right to insult them. Many years from now when you have grown up and had children and see all the responsibility and love that comes from parenting I can only hope your children are more respectful to you and others than you have been.

"kleej" I agree with you completely

pigbrain...If you go on to read..Jesus is speaking of false prophets.. Mark 13:5&6 "Take heed lest any man shall deceive you":
"For many shall come in my name , saying I am Christ: and deceive many." It is hard to just take a text out of the bible without reading all that pertains to it..

AthiestCH..I'm truly sorry for your loss, (and to justsaynotomath) no one knows why things happen to good people..but there are two scriptures that help me to live as close to the word as I can...James 5:15 and 16, "And the prayers of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise them up" "The effectual fervant prayers of a RIGHTEOUS man availeth much" Like I keep saying, Faith is a gift from God....To the student who ripped the bible...YOU ARE SCARY....keep talking and there just might be other students pulled from PHS...

CHRISTIANITY is the last hope for our fading nation. The proof is in the pudding. You look at any socialist country and you'll find a nation that's taken away the right to religion and replaced GOD with their government. Countries like the Soviet Union, China, Germany etc. are each a nation reliant on their government. Which means the citizens are basically slaves to their governments. There's no incentive to strive for anything above and beyond the status quo simply because there's no benefit to it. God didn't put us on this earth to be slaves, he put us on this earth to willingly serve others as we would have served onto us. It's our way of glorifying our GOD in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)
It's very important that people understand, the right to religion is everyone's choice and I respect that 100%, but, let's not forget this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles by our forefathers. Christian or not, the principles behind everything are guidelines we should follow regardless of our faith. If we all just did the right things on a daily basis and lived by the golden rule, wouldn't this country be a better place for everyone? Just for the record, I'm not a Bible pusher or out to convince anyone they should be! But, the next time you have a complaint about your rights as citizens of this great country being violated, take a good look at the constitution and bill of rights and see how your government has taken the godly principles out of it....slowly but surely. Our government and a great majority of people have no clue what truth is anymore! To them, the truth is what works for "them"! News Flash: There is no such thing as "your truth or my truth" there is only ONE TRUTH and it's in a great book which can and has been traced back 2000 years............ The truth be told! God bless all of you!

sewaelizebeth;

I enjoyed your comment. Hopefully, most people would not look at Athiests or any other group based on one individual(s) actions. I would no more think he represents Athiests than I would want you to think that the tv evangelist represents religion.

A viewpoint of a group based on isolated incidences is prejudice and is never productive. This debate of religion as seen here is based on grouping and as you can see here is not good.

Danneskjold if you don't care about how people feel about you whats with all these retorts. Honestly, as far as religion itself is concerned, I agree with some of what you say. I'm an atheist and you seem like a very intelligent person. A little maturity in your interaction with others would take you far in life, I think, and make people more open to listening to your opinions. But why do you care about what others think about religion and why do you think your opinions matter to them? Why try to change people's minds? The only reason I'm addressing you is because I think you kind of put atheists in more of a bad light then we already are. You have the right to say what you want, sure, but if you don't care what people think then why are you trying to convince them? Live and let live. Let the 'ignoramuses' who believe in god believe and we 'ignoramuses' who don't, won't.

This is absurd. This child has posted so many rude comments, that it just proves even further he has a lack of respect for his fellow "Americans". He likes to consider himself an american with the freedom of speech...blah blah blah, but he certainly doesn't attribute that freedom to anyone but himself, I guess it was him who faught "alone" for our rights to have freedoms. It is in my hopes that he can review his posted comments and his behavoir on a daily basis, and recognize just how contradicting he is. And also a hypocrite. If you are going to be using the ammendments as part of your way of life, then it is necessary that you follow them all the way through and reap as you receive. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with religion, everyone has their own temple right inside themselves as far as I am concerned, but, you do need to return the request of letting you have your own belief system without punishment. That means, do not disrespect those of a different circle, just agree to disagree.

I find it interesting how danneskjold's friends use Elle's name on the site and how her family's name is in the media, but he hides behind his username. Everyone at Parker knows who he is, at least.

"athiestCH" i would love to know you. i was about to write the same thing to "cyndee" about children who did die... when you beat me to the punch. i can tell you are a strong woman and i am happy you were able to make peace with religion. i wish everyone could feel what we feel and know that there is nothing to be scared of and that life is beautiful.

I think some people here have a problem with "young people" while others here do not. I certainly am not one who has a problem with young people having opinions. I have a problem with people of any age who resort to rude,antagonistic, and aggressive language Yes, people of ALL ages, and all religious affiliations or lack thereof, could use a dose of good manners. So, and I truly mean it this time :) Good night!

as everyone on here has stated, you don't care that the student is an atheist. i think the truth is you do care, alot. even more evident is your hate for young people. the fact that he is a young person just makes you all the more angry. young people should do what they are told and not have any opions or facts, right ? just maybe, it's the god loving adults that need to learn some manners .

"Beware of those teachers of religion! They love to wear the robes of the rich and scholarly, and have everyone bow to them as they walk through the markets.They love to sit in the best seats in the synagogues, and at the places of honor at banquets-but they shamelessly cheat widows out of their homes, then, to cover up the kind of men they really are, they pretend to be pious by praying love prayers in public. Because of this their punishment will be all the greater."
Words of Jesus Christ, Mark 12:38-40
He hated religion, too. He knew it was man-made hogwash.

Danneskjold - I do appreciate your comments, especially giving a little insight into your presentation "sans" the insults. I would have liked to have read an explanation like that from you earlier on. And no, I wouldn't like to have people all over the US discussing me, but then again, I tend not to do things that would put me in such a limelight. Clearly,though, you didn't expect the complications that your presentation has brought on, but I am sorry to say that no matter how many times I read your comments and reaction to this attention, they do in fact sound "angry"...to me,okay? And, I have never intimated that you are a "troubled" teen. With all of the time and thought you have invested into questionning Christianity, I guess I would only wish that you wouldn't insist on simply being so crude in trying to convey your viewpoint and then showing your limiting view by saying you have nothing to absorb from the "blockheads". And I guess to me part of not being self-centered is simply being open to other people's perceptions, whether they are ultimately right or wrong. Truly, for your sake, I hope this calms down. Given all the negative attention this has received, would you do it again if you knew this (national websites, public censure, etc) were to be the outcome? (If you would be willing to give me a thoughtful reply without the insults, it would be great!)

PS... I hope Danneskjold knows what an amazing friend he has in prizefighterinferno who seems quite sensible and articulate. And to clarify, yes, I see some self-centeredness in his postings, and I hope he isn't quite as he appears as you claim. I, however, said nothing regarding his family situation and am only referring to how he has represented himself in this forum. Just as he "judges" what I and others have put here, so it goes that it is also the only way we can "judge" him. I can appreciate prizefighterinferno's sense of loyalty -so to you as well - have a good one...

No, it's beyond anger. Simply look at your word choice and use of capitalization. I could care less what your religious or non-religious beliefs are myself; I am totally agnostic. But, if you can't recognize your childish rampage...oh well! Again, lacking recognition of one's true feelings is another characteristic of the typical teen. Don't think I am insulting you; it's simply the way you have presented yourself in your recent writings...no hard feelings; have a great night!

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." Hm...with a little research you would find Lincoln as quoted above. To address calli71 and simon, um...neither of you is correct. I'm sorry but having met his mother I'd have to say she's one of the most loving and understanding people I've met, so they're fine, along with the family situation altogether. calli71, well he is not self-centered, nor does he crave attention. Perhaps, now this may be totally wrong but I doubt it, he was merely drawing attention to a topic like "how religion is controlling" and in doing so right away everyone gets on his case because it's "not appropriate" to bring up. I don't see why, free-speech aside, he couldn't bring it up because I hear about people's beliefs all the time, so when we hear about someone's LACK of belief, all of a sudden it's awful, and oh no can't say that.

...and stupid

The anger and hatred that spews from this boy's mouth is really sad. It is so obvious he needs a lot of help. I really feel sorry for his parent(s) for what you are putting them through.

benthinkin: I couldn't agree with you more, and seeing the boy's tirade of anger, bitterness, and sarcasm in his last posting, he simply proved your point even more. How unfortunate that he doesn't "absorb" what anyone else has to say and simply uses this forum to say "nah na nah na boo boo...you can't touch me", which only serves to reaffirm his self-centered youthfulness. I guess we can only chuckle and be reminded of what it was like to be so young...

Cynndee, Gee how lucky you are that you prayed to god & your child lived. Neither one of my children lived. They both died several years apart. I quess your child was the chosen one & mine were not! Bless you child of God you must really be special!!

Apparently the student in question is using the age old attempt at raising himself by putting others down. His name calling does nothing to make a point and yet is used in most of his comments.

Many teens go through this in life where they name call and put down as an attempt to raise themselves. And as most eventually figure out it is better to work to raise youself up than to put others down.

ihavealife: Correction. The forum is about the 'bible ripping incident'. Hence why it's underneath /this/ article.

Justsaynotomath: Exactly!

Musixstrings: "but what offends me more than an atheist shaking his puny little fist declaring "there is no God", is the luke warm "Christian" who lets the Bible collect dust on the shelf. Anyone read it for themselves lately? or do you just take what other's say about God's word as gospel?"
I think everyone should definitely take note of this. It's a totally valid point, and really, how offended can you say you are if you haven't even read the pages he's ripped out?

Interesting article...even more interesting postings

It is quite obvious that the student wasn't just giving reasons why he doesn't believe in God, but intended to intimidate for maximum effect of “shock & awe”. Certainly this lad is not the first person ever to try and provoke God into a challenge, by declaring his non existence with an act of disrespect. History tells us that burning Bibles (God's Word), persecuting/ killing people in the name of a "State Religion", or daring God to strike them dead with a bolt of lightening, or even ripping pages form the Bible, really proves anything other than God's mercy for rebellious men. Sort of like the punk teenager challenging any authority...may get away with it for a short time, and may even be fun as he brags to his friends about the deeds done, but in the end, justice rewards. Confirming there is something larger than oneself.

A few years ago I read an article how Castro would influence young children in school. Teacher's would have the children put their heads down on their desk, and ask them to pray to God for candy...when the children lifted their heads and opened their eyes, there was nothing! Next the teachers would repeat the sequence, but this time asked them to pray to Castro...this time when they opened their eyes, they had candy! And yes there are people in the name of religion (Christianity) who manipulate situations, and perform wondrous signs, seeking the praise of men also. Point is…lies and deception can take various forms, and can be very persuading when the truth is not known.

Being a Christian, I would be more concerned about the threats portrayed by this student than the actual tearing pages from a Bible. I dropped my Bible and ripped a view pages, and even dropped it in a mud puddle once or twice as I carried under my arm. New Bible’s can be purchased, and are reprinted, but what offends me more than an atheist shaking his puny little fist declaring "there is no God", is the luke warm "Christian" who lets the Bible collect dust on the shelf. Anyone read it for themselves lately? or do you just take what other's say about God's word as gospel?

“Religion” has been a pretty hot topic since the beginning of time, and the most important question anyone will face in their life time is, “…what will you do with Jesus?”
Real & rational thinking is logically reduced to….we are all going to die some day. Then where will you be, based on who’s faith?

theguyonthecouch
"The kid has a right to believe what he wants, give a speech on it and even tear up the bible. But he went too far by calling probably 90% of his classmates 'idiots'. I think a suspension was too much, but he definitely should have been told to sit down and shut up."

I believe the school/teacher were in a now win situation. If they didn't react and something happened to this student they would be accused of not acting. Since they did something, preventing possible future conflict, they are being criticized. That is the problem with being proactive, nobody really knows what is prevented.

To me, the issue isn't about religion it is about respect. This student has no respect for people who think or believe differently than he does. The language he used should lead to a suspension.

How can you say that because someone has faith they are brainwashed? Can you prove that prayer had nothing to do whatsoever with her son's recovery and I mean actual proof? No you cannot. Just as we as christians can not prove God to you, we accept Him by faith. You cannot prove evolution either. There is still a missing link so there is no absolute proof for that either, you believe it because you choose to just as Christians choose to believe in God. You breathe air, you cannot see it so does that mean it doesn't exist? The winds blow but you cannot see it so therefore it must not exist? Before you are so quick to put someone down for their beliefs remember that is just what you said your friend was doing... Expressing his beliefs and that it is his right to do so. Everyone has a right to choose their beliefs and the right to free speech, you do not however have the right to insult others who don't agree with everything you say or do.

justsaynotomath...Like I said unless you are a child of God you will never get it,No one can give you faith except God,I don't know where you get you're information about women not being honored, Gods word says,Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and GAVE himself for it."
How is that not honor? You give all these statements. But never anything to back them up! My son may have lived because of science,But..(again my belief)..who guides those hands of science "through prayer." God also gave us brains to use, to seek a Dr. if we need it...I am a nurse by proffession, Does that answer your question???

"cyndee" yes your right, i don't understand your self imposed ignorance. it is byond me how a woman can be a christian. are you forgeting that women do not count and that your husband is your ruler ? do you obey your husband ? oh and by the way jesus doubted god but, you seemed to have left that out ? you also left out the 250,000 jews that were crusified with jesus but, i guess they don't count ? your son lived because of science, not because you prayed about it. why did you take him to a hospital if you could just pray ? "athiestch" has it right , you are brain washed.

I'm sorry if I OFFEND someone,but please give me the courtesy to say a few words in a christians defense. Unless you are a christian, you just will not get it...The faith, the answer to prayer, the feeling of the presence of God working in your life, My son was in a horrible cat accident, he was med flighted to Madison, the head trauma unit.. I prayed in the chapel,and before I left that chapel I knew he was going to be alright.How a person lives without prayer and the Lord to lean on is beyond my comprhension. Unless you are a christian and have felt the prescence of GOD.. Like I said you just won't ever get it..So don't put down something that you just don't understand..
why is it so upsetting to a christian when you insult God/Christ, because he is their Father , their Saviour and their friend, would you not be offended if someone spoke ill of you're father or friend. Especially if that friend was crucified just for you. To not believe in him is your own personal choice..but if that girl was offended in class, please see where she is coming from...Anyone can take a text from the script and make what they want of it, however the bible is not written that way...rEAsontrace..when GOD is speaking of death..there is the difference between spiritual death and eternal life. Anybody can pick a text to say anything they want but the Bible must be read as a whole.

I admire this student for speaking out. If there was inappropriate lanquage the teacher should have made it clear from the beginning what was allowed or not allowed in speech class and taken care of the problem at that time. When I was a young person I was too afraid to be an atheist. I struggled with questions about the bible & god all my life. I read the bible from the beginning through the New Testiment. The Old Testiment was full of god revenge. If you don't believe, god will get even. In the New Testiment you will live in burning hell in your afterlife if you don't believe. The only answer I ever got was "god moves in mysterious ways" or "he will reveal himself someday & explain it all to us." I thought "why don't I get it?" So many intelligent people believe it. My family believes it. I live in the bible belt so I remained afraid to speak out about my feelings. I'm in my sixties and I read "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine. I could hardly believe that someone else thought like I did. I now feel the biggest since of relief to finally get over the "god struggle."
Also, there is a very good reason why we have separation of State and Religion. Religion was originally designed to understand the unexplainable and then to control the masses. We are either brainwashed when very young or when we are down and out. That is why churches target the very young to come to their bible schools. They can brain wash them early. I admire this young student to resolve this issue at such an early age. You are a free person and a free thinker. Thank you.

karenincarolina
I was not debating the merits of Christianity vs. atheism at all. I was addressing how we speak to and about people whose opinions differ from ours, which is clearly apart of this discussion.
prizefighterinferno
Lincoln an atheist? Have you read his speeches? We have them you know. Unless there has been interpolation of epic proportions with his speeches President Lincoln believed in God. I'd start with his Second Inaugural Address.

Hmm, well kwalker you did a good job of drawing out all of the negatives of the situation, I suppose you might have a knack for it. Since, apparently, you were right there perhaps you could tell about the various points he made about his beliefs? Anyone who heard it heard that he believes religion controls people, which arguably it does. I do believe he also made points about Ayn Rand who is an atheist in good company. So apparently just because this kid doesn't approve of religion, and spoke up, he's the one who gets nailed for it. Nietzsche, Einstein, Galileo, Thomas Edison, Freud, and Abraham Lincoln were all avid atheists, some even very hostile. So please justify your intolerance of the one who speaks out.

karenincarolina, haha my apologies, the one and only danneskjold of course. Well as far as talking to him goes, she never did to my knowledge.

Well karenincarolina, to my knowledge there was one other person who drew attention and was "offended" by it, but I don't want to name names. Elle's reaction wasn't obvious, well everyone was shocked, except myself because I knew before hand. I believe she passed beyond the teacher straight to the principal, and apparently her mother was in too. I personally find her reaction, altogether the pulling from school and seeing the principal a bit out of proportion, as well as her comments, but I'm not her so who am I to say how she must feel. As far as danneskjold goes, I am unaware of who that is, I do know she was on the Facebook, which I actually didn't know about until she spoke up. It's actually up to 87 members now. Off-topic now, I keep seeing BlackIrish's comment, and it is totally uncalled for, I'm sorry do you know the kid? Do you know his reasons and beliefs? Maybe he feels strongly about this topic but you can't allow that or what? I'm sorry you feel this way, because it could not be farther from the truth. Perhaps you should think before you speak.

ihavealife: Just...wow. There's nothing horrifying and underground going on at Parker. Please. This is Janesville. There's not some conspiracy to keep us kids quiet. Trust me. If we don't like something, we sort of make it known. We're not being kept quiet with threats of suspension, I can tell you that with certainty. Whatever your kids 'went through' there's definitely nothing so /traumatizing/ happening at Parker. I don't know that there ever has been.
I have no idea where you're getting all this. It's also entirely besides the point of this forum.

From what I, personally, understand, Elle was the only one so severely affected.
To pretty much /all/ of the student body, her reaction was over the top, and unnecessary.
She stated that she felt 'violated' and 'threatened', and so I believe she's now doing the online school.
Elle's extremely devout to her faith, but she takes it too far in saying she's threatened. Offended, a few other people were that I've talked to, but they're fine. They simply feel he was out of line.
And bibledude: Do, look into that. I'm interested to see what explanations you come up with for ones such as "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death" - Leviticus 20:13

Bibledude
Getting into a Christian vs atheist debate here would only take the focus off the real issue, even though it may be tangentially related.

prizefighterinferno
May I ask, was anyone else(besides Elle) in the class offended by the language used by danneskjold? Did anyone else feel threatened?
What was Elle's immediate reaction in the classroom? Did she notify the teacher that she was upset? Was anyone aware that she was upset?
Did Elle say anything to danneskjold? If so, what?

Ok, ihavealife, I did as you suggested and asked my kids, even their friends, about the accusations that you made. Just as rEAsontrace recently posted, they don't know where you got your claims. None knew of any real gangs operating, although I suppose that some gang members could be attending Parker High School as there is some gang activity in Janesville. Yes there are kids that have been caught with drugs and knives and kids that have gotten into fights, but that doesn't sound any different to me than when I went to high school, quite a long time ago! I certainly doubt that the same problems don't occur in every other high school in our area. I even went so far as to try and do a search on the Gazette website using "Parker", "fight", "gang" and "drugs". I found no articles. Other than hearsay, please cite your sources. Lastly, I would once again encourage you to use your CAPS key.

Well "tater", amusing name, to answer your question, um...no. I am the kid, as previously stated, who started the Facebook, and I didn't name anyone, I created it solely for the kid (my friend) was unfairly punished, and this business about accosting people, don't count on it. He knew people were saying things but he certainly didn't accost anybody. Again, I am saying I don't condone what he did, but he certainly wasn't handled great. Any real questions about the situation can be directed to myself, who was front-row at the incident, and knows the kid, don't count on many others for pinpoint accuracy, this article as well misses key points.

rEAsontrace
I have read other such sources over the ears and haven't found anything of significance that doesn't have an explanation but I'll check it out. thank you.

ihavealife: I'm sorry. That's all news to me. I don't remember the last time I was terrorized at Parker by a gang member. Our so called 'gangs' are wanna-be do-nothings. Because they literally. Do. Nothing. They brawl now and then with each other and the incident with the girl last year, with the heel? Yeah. Definitely NOT a gang related incident. It was just two nutty girls going at each other.
Find me a school that doesn't have petty fights like these, or drug dealings within certain kids. It doesn't define Parker. It certainly doesn't define the majority of the kids there. I don't know where your child or you are coming up with these massive horror stories.
Everything you've named, from theft to the words coming out of the mouths of those who attend-- those are all the most ignorant things I've ever heard of. Theft happens EVERYWHERE, and we, by no means, have a horrible theft problem. Lock your stuff up. That's a sure fire way to /not/ get stolen from.
And it's certainly news to me that Carlson has no control. If anything he's stifling us. But that's a different story.
133 children lost from Parker. Wow. For some reason that's shocking...And I attend the school?
Check the validity and relevance to your facts, ihavealife, you sound utterly ridiculous.

Bibledude: You asked for proof of the bible's contradictions. Scroll down more. I posted a link that /lists/ the contradictions. They're not hard to find.

sewaelizebeth, 2dognight Well said by both. We will never all see eye to eye but it is vital to respect the opinions of those who disagree with us.

My concern is what ever happened to manners?
Speak your mind freely in a subjective way but attacking others is a very weak way to make a point.

sewaelizebeth: I wish more people thought the way you did. How much better the world would be. I am a christian but have atheiest friends and friends of other religions and we all get along just fine because we don't push anything on anyone. They all know how we feel and we accept each other as we are. There are plenty of other topics to keep our conversations going. :o)

danneskjold,

I am not great at anonymity. My name is Ben Breit and I am the youth pastor at New Life. I have been following this story and would imagine your life just got a little more complicated. for what it is worth to you, I want you to know that if you ever want to have a safe place to talk to somebody about your thoughts on this matter, or life in general, my door is open to you.

Take care.

I'm an atheist and I have to say I'm embarassed. Not all of us feel the need to put down people of religion. As far as I'm concerned your beliefs are yours, my beliefs are mine and the two shouldn't stop us from getting along. As a matter of fact-my kids go to church. People may ask me why I allow it. I say I can't/won't think for them. I don't try to sway them-I told them there would be no debates. What would be the point? So as an atheist, I ask that we not be judged by the actions of one.

While I am posting, I would like to comment on some of the other previous posts. One of my kids that attends Parker knows both parties involved with the subjects in this story. He and most of his classmates seem to have more info than what was reported by the Gazette. It seems that the reason this boy has been reprimanded to counseling, etc. was NOT because of tearing up the Bible, but because of the language used against other students and the threats that he made to the girl that took issue with him and reported him to her counselor. From what I've heard, he accosted her in the hallway and then made a Facebook page naming her and slandering her there. It was the cumulation of these actions that resulted in his temporary suspension and made her family fear for her safety so much that they removed her and her sister from school. Now, I should stop here and admit that I have not seen this Facebook page, but if there is anyone that can substantiate or refute this, then I would love to hear from them. I believe those facts would really help this discussion, especially since without them many other discussions, such as the ones mentioned on the atheist sites, are working with less than full knowledge. So, high schoolers monitoring this topic: have you seen the Facebook page of this event? danneskjold - are you still with us?

ihavealife: We heard you the first time; you didn't need to repeat your views about PHS again. Unsubstantiated accusations tend to remain ignored. If you really have a story, give us details. Just so you know, I have two children at Parker and they DO NOT come home with any stories about gang and drug problems to the extent that you mention. In fact, they like going to school and most of their classes and teachers. They do mention occasionally about a fight or similar, but I doubt that there are any high schools that don't have some of these issues. I employ a couple of Craig students and my friend has a couple of kids attending the Rockford Christian school, and they have the same issues. One last thing, and please take this as constructive criticism: when posting don't just type and hit send. Use proper grammar and punctuation. Capitalize the first word of each sentence. It will make your comments more readable and perhaps even more convincing.

I enjoy reading people's comments on the Koran (however you may choose to spell it) and its relation to this. I only want to say this, if you honestly believe that in this United States, or anywhere for that matter, that Christianity is taken more seriously than Islam and the Koran are in the middle east and their home countries, your judgement is clouded. If you ask me, the Islamic people have so much more faith, and place religion in much more of a sacred place than any of us so-called Christians, we can't even draw them into this. Ripping a Koran is a crime punishable by death in their religion, not because they're dramatic, but appreciative, they get up in arms because of their beliefs. If you ask me, the people getting angry here, are just getting angry for the heck of it. I think Christianity is possibly the most misinterpreted religion, and people fail to realize this. I believe Gandhi hit it on the head when he said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ."

karenincarolina
Both Christians and atheists can be arrogant, it is a flaw with people not a flaw with a belief system. The Christian faith teaches humility and there are plenty of Christians who need a good dose of it that's true.
I also have encountered my fair share of arrogance within the species of the atheist. I have visited some of the websites you refer to and your comments are indicative of the arrogance that is found there. You are the free thinkers and Christians are ignorant you say. To be ignorant by definition is to be destitute of knowledge or education. Most of the Christians I know are very knowledgeable and educated. What is boils down to is if we don't agree with the "free-thinkers" we must be ignorant. I too am a free thinker. I was an agnostic and in contemplating teleological and cosmological arguments I came to believe in the existence of God. My rejecting your world view does not make me ignorant. I know I still have many questions and much to learn about life and my Creator. A dose of humility would make your remarks more palatable. Arrogance is repulsive whether it comes from a Christian or an atheist.

Broadheadmommy is on to something. Kwalker you hit the nail on the head. Great post. How popular this discussion has become!

the only one insulted was god and his followers,right ? well let me be the first to welcome the christians to the rest of the world. if god is all knowing and you are his follower, then how can you be ffeneded when you have the word of god on your side ? according to the believers god makes the rules, so live in bliss. you have the after life, something that releases you from the now. good luck with that !

How cowardly and immature of this kid. It's certainly easy to pick on Christians when their philosophy for dealing with the hateful is "turn the other cheek". I doubt he'd have the guts to tear up a Qur'an with an audience of angry Muslims in attendance.

I don't even get the point of this petulant little kid's "presentation". Yeah, you hate Christians and want to piss them off, good for you. Now, got any remotely intelligent or scholarly points to make?

I do agree his free speech should be protected, though... after all, free speech includes saying stupid stuff. As long as he gets a bad grade for throwing such a shrill little temper tantrum in place of a real speech, it's all good by me.

Doesn't anyone here see that the split was not about religion, but in the insults directed at the audience???

The student was not questioned about the position on the bible or christianity, but on the insults made...

"broadheadmommny" my username is a joke at the Fact that believers can Not seem to do simple math. another words christians "just say no to math". if you had bothered to read my other comments you would know that facts,science, and math is what i base my comments on !

justsaynotomath....
I gather just by your screen-name, you are against the science of facts. Evidence given by facts in this country and others are that anger evolves and esculates, and often little "outbursts" like this as a juvenile factually end up be disasterous. Religion is one way someone can quite efficiently get a rise out of anyone at anytime, and that is exactly what this child is doing, and if in fact acting childish by tearing the pages of a book as a preschooler would.

Bibledude
"it" was referring to the word species, not Christian in that sentence. Species refers to Christians.
I think the boy knows his mother is a Christian. That doesn't stop him from thinking she is errant in her beliefs. And I made mention of his open-minded Christian friends who supported him, and cautioned him not to be so blunt with them.
Your tender sensibilities ARE showing.
And any arrogance you perceive on my part could not begin to compete with the arrogance of Christian belief.

karenincarolina
The young man's mother and friend referred to themselves as Christians so they would each be one of the "it"s you referred to. I'm sure he appreciates this mother and friend spoken of in such a condescending manner. Your entire diatribe reeks of arrogance (of course most of it was over my head because as a Christian I'm incapable of comprehending your vast literary prowess) I find it hypocritical when the "free thinkers" accuse the Christians of being judgemental (as they often can be) then proceed to do exactly the same thing. I think my tendersensibilities must be hurting.

danneskjold,
I just want to compliment you on the stand you have ended up taking for your 1st Amendment rights. You may not have wanted attention, but you're getting it. Your story is circulating on atheist blogs around the country. This particular site was linked to PZMyers Evolution Blog, where a very healthy and sometimes heated discussion has been going on about what happened with you. The biggest complaint was that your side of the story wasn't being told, and conjecture was that the complainant and her family were hysterical and hyperbolic in their reaction to your inventive demonstration of the lack of mystical powers of the Bible.

There was much disagreement over whether your choice of language and approach with your audience was appropriate. It is one thing to recognize that Christians are ignorant; quite another to tell them that as you are making a presentation to them. As you may have noticed, it is quite all right for them to tell the heathen (i.e. anyone not just like them) that they are headed straight for an eternal torment in Hell, but we mustn't offend their tender sensibilities. You are correct when you say that the Christian is protected in this country. One would think it was an endangered species.

At any rate, I would like to congratulate you on your speech, nerves and all. I think the "Sand in the Vagina" comment was a colorful touch, but perhaps over the heads of your audience. I don't know if your teacher thought that was vulgar and took points off or not. Not enough information was presented in any of the articles about the parameters of the assignment.

You certainly have my sympathies for having to undergo a psych exam to return to school. In my estimation, you didn't pose any threat and shouldn't have been disciplined at all. Indeed, it is your fragile young classmate who perhaps needs some psychiatric intervention. I shudder to think how she will handle the world at large past high school if this is the sort of trauma that sends her sniveling to her daddy.

May you keep the courage of your convictions. What a wonderful free-thinking mind you have! And it seems you have some pretty good friends of the Christian bent who are more open-minded than most. Don't hit them over the head with that "idiot" stuff --as long as they don't hit you over the head with their Jesus stuff!
Cheers!

"broadheadmommy" what is wrong with you ? i think you need the help. being uniformed is not an excuse for you to say "he needs help". i'm glad that you can see into the future ? maybe you can charge people with a crime before they do it ? give me a brake lady !

All I have to say is this, this child had better be taken seriously, not for his intended message, but for his unintended. He is smoldering inside, and this was just a temporary fix to his anger. This is not the issue at all in my opinion, and someone had better stop his behavior before it is a truely destructive one. He got rewarded for his behavior this time, being everyone is in an uproar about his insensitivity towards christians. But his attack wasn't directed towards christians, that was just available at that particular moment. The next time he wants to make a point, it may not be so easily shrugged off. Anger has a way of working itself into EVERY situation, and if the anger is not defused, it will ignite every chance it can....and sometimes will be destructive beyond repair. This boy needs help, the warning signals have been displayed in full view....please if someone who is aquainted with this child, get the appropriate help for him before he really hurts someone!! His heart is hurting and is should be taken seriously that it is in need of nourishment.

My apologies, when you said it you just sounded like, "well the teacher clearly didn't care", but I understand what you mean. Well I respect this teacher very much, and I think they were between a rock and a hard place on this one.

Prizefighterinferno, that was my point. Even though some of us may not agree with the way it was presented, he must have done a good job to get the score that he did.

RUSerious, hahaha, as I was writing that, I was saying to myself, that is not correct, but was too lazy to fix it. Thank you for the correction though. I also must say I have pointed out the fact that he could have done it in a much less offensive way, to the student himself, and to other people, some people are just stubborn. I totally understand your angle though. People like to just do what they want, like how in this instance, there easily was a way to do this that was not offensive, but he just had to have it his way.

I am sorry, prizefighterinferno, and I wouldn't even say it if you hadn't commented on the previous poster's poor spelling, but in your phrase "it is obvious that the teacher would not grade him poorly on this just because it may offend themself", "themself" is not a word. The word (themselves) is always plural.
As far as the story itself, (proper form, because "it" is singular, like "story"), if the student's objective was to get people to think and talk about the subject, he was successful. If he would have wanted to, I'm guessing he could have found an equally stimulating, but less offensive, way to do it. Then no one could complain, and because he was able to do that, his grade may have been even better.

Well, to entertain your comment, timdogbr549, it is obvious that the teacher would not grade him poorly on this just because it may offend themself. The teacher cannot give him a bad grade if it was offensive to some, if he was not breaking school rules, and the presentation followed the guidelines, which it did, so he deserved the 20/25, and I applaud the teacher because they knew they couldn't slant grade maybe just because they didn't like what the kid was saying. Also, on an off-topic note, clearly it has been awhile since you were in school, given your spelling of "decent", but your grammar aside, the teacher did what was right.

I do not exactly agree with the way this young man went about his presentation, I am sure he could have done it a little differently and there would not be this big debate, If I remember correctly, he was given a score of 20, out of a possible 25, so apparently the teacher couldn't have had to much of a problem with it. Now it has been a few years since I have been in school, lol, but that seems to be a pretty descent score.

oops, sorry, I meant to say the teacher apparently didn't have a problem with it, due to the fact that she scored him a 20 out of 25.

I do not exactly agree with the way this young man went about his presentation, I am sure he could have done it a little differently and there would not be this big debate, but if I am not mistaken, apparently neither did the teacher. If I remember correctly, he was given a score of 20, out of a possible 25. Now it has been a few years since I have been in school, lol, but that seems to be a pretty descent score.

Thank you for participating idontlikereligion and welcome to an interesting blog. I will try in to address some of your concerns.
Pertaining to woman wearing pants, pants did not exist when the scripture was written so there is no scripture that speaks to the wearing of pants. There is a scripture in Deut. 22:5 that states that women should not wear men's clothing but whose to say pants are exclusively for men? My wife tries to live by the Bible and has no problem wearing pants nor do other Christian women I know. There are some women that believe that but its a matter of preference and interpretation. As far as Jesus addressing homosexuality specifically there is no scripture where Jesus does that. The subject is spoken of by the Apostle Paul, however, in Galations and Romans. Regarding animal sacrifice, it did exist in the Old Testament and was done by the priests and on the Sabbath, which was Saturday. This ended for Christians because Jesus became the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world." There are many rabbit trials and obscure laws in the Old Testament but I hope you will instead focus on the Bibles story. The Bible has a theme, the Old Testament looks toward the coming of Messiah, the Gospels to the time He was here and the Epistles look back at that time. It's a story of God redeeming mankind. If you get a chance please read the Gospel of John. I do respect the opinions of those on this board who disagree with me as all Christians should. By the way, I hate religion too.

alright, I'll say this first, so no one gets after me.

I think everyone here has presented valid opinions that they happen to believe in. I don't but I will not belittle and/or criticize you for disagreeing with what I say, if you extend me the same curtesey. Capeesh?

Now, I am going to state what I happen to believe. You can disagree, I don't care. But please don't use the "I'm right, you're wrong." approach. Its idiotic, and I don't want to deal with you if that's all you have to say. Constructive arguements, however, are welcome.

I personally do not believe in the Bible. For one, because people use it to tell me that I can't believe in Pro-choice, and gay marraige. But that is irrelevant at the moment.

Another reason I don't like the Bible is because it is, as some of you have pointed out, full of contradictions. For example, the Old Testament condems Gay marraige, yet, in the New Testament, it says Jesus goes out of his way to be seen with social outcasts, beggars, homosexuals, and the like.

The Bible also states that women cannot wear pants, and that every Sunday, each family must sacrifice an ox and a lamb. Look it up, its all true. Now, who can honestly say they would actually do any of this?

The final reason I dislike the Bible is because it causes pointless arguments, such as this.

Greetings and Salutations gazettextra commenters,

I am the student who sat front row in the class in which this happened. I am the student who started the internet page for the "bible-ripper". Now I had no knowledge of his intent until the morning of, but I knew I could not stop him. I did enjoy reading this article, which misses critical points, like, even though I started the internet page, it fails to state that on that page, I wrote, "I don't condone what he did, but this is getting out of hand". My main quarrel is the actions taken by some figures, i.e. students in the class, or authority figures. I was offended by the mere thought that this kid, a friend of mine as well, could be deemed a threat to anyone. I am a Christian, but after being around him for some time, I just learned to totally let his anti-God comments go right by me. I think that people have more control than they think about how things offend them, and let me tell you this, this young man was not, and is not, looking for attention, if you think this, you're wrong, because I know him, and clearly you don't. I also saw comments about tearing the Quran (Koran?). Well first of all, yes he would have been hunted down because lets look at the facts... Islam is the belief of NATIONS, as opposed to the U.S. where we believe if we so choose, and ripping/destroying the Quran (Koran) is an actual crime. So in summary, I don't believe he should be punished, I also don't condone what he did, along with that, people just need to settle down, we certainly are not choosing our battles wisely nowadays, everyone needs to calm.....down...

JM727 ..you know pigbrain made an excellent point..really think about it...Are you really willing to risk eternity on your opinion and the opinion of mans word without checking every other avenue..including prayer..I've pondered on this through out this morning and the only verse that keeps going through my mind is Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it shall be given; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" I hope you continue to seek! You seem like such an intelligent and well read young man and as bibledude said, I too will pray you're studies bring you back to your Saviour

Definitely not a last resort.
I'm a natural skeptic, plus being in LE warrants that I find the truth without bias.
My personal research led me to many books, one more to mention is "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell, a top Theologian. One of many of his findings is this:
There are over 5300 known Greek,
Over 10,000 Latin,
And 9,300 other early versions of the complete New Testament, as well as over 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existence today.
No other document in antiquity even begins to approach such numbers and attestation.
In comparison, the Iliad by Homer is second with 643 manucsripts that are known.
With numbers like that, what makes it so important that at least 48,000 people in different parts of the world would make exact copies of just another book? (keeping in mind this was before you could go to Office Max to make copies.) Those are the questions that got me to actually start reading the Book and that's when it began to make sense. Until you read for yourself, you're gonna want to find fault with it and will try hard to do so. It's called conviction.
And religion has nothing to do with the Bible.

BLIND FAITH IS EXACTLY THAT BLIND. NO MATTER WHAT WE SAY THE BLIND WILL NEVER SEE THE TRUTH. "THE GOD THAT WASN'T THERE" RICHARD DAWKINS, IS A GREAT READ AND DISCOUNTS THE BIBLE ALMOST PAGE FOR PAGE. IT ALSO COMES IN A FANTSTIC DVD FOR THE BLIND TO HEAR.

JM727, though I did not see the need to address this earlier I do feel compelled to now..Re: lineage of Jesus, you are right he did not have an earthly father...but his lineage comes from his earthly mother...MARY.

Not following you Benthinkin. You are stating to ask someone to prove the claim they made about the Bible is a position of weakness? It was a broad generalization Henry made and two have asked him to be more specific, how is that weakness? It would be weakness if Henry could not respond to the challenge or weakness if none on the forum could answer the contradiction if one is put forward but to challenge such a statement is not weakness at. It's asking a person to substantiate a claim that is so broad one could not begin to respond unless the person who made such a claim gave more details as to the contradiction they are referring to.

Religion is a belief...an idea, it is not a Proof. Any thing can be subject to scrutiny under the prove it debate.

As I sit here typing, I can simply close my eyes which proves to me that the computer is not there. Typically when I hear the prove it debate, I am brought to think that equates to a weak position and this is brought out as a last resort.

yes..please show one contradiction in the bible, maybe its your interpretation of it.

Henry
What about the countless millions that have been fed and are continuing to be fed by Christian organizations? How about the hospitals started by Christians and the some of the best schools in the world started by Christians? Were there things done in the name of God that are shameful and wrong? There are and they are things our Lord would and did decry. However, if you are going to speak of the bad you must also mention the good. FACT!

What contradictions? Give me one piece of evidence that disproves or shows the Bible as contradictory to itself.

Pigbrain (apt)
"Since the Bible has undergone such scrutiny, through investigation, and thousands of years of testing, you may want to at least research what it has to say about Hell, salvation and where Christ fits into the picture."

The Bible does NOT stand up to investigation. It is riddled with contradictions!
And all religions rely on one fact "Believe what we tell you, we know better."
To which I say "Prove it." I look at the results of so-called religion and see war, strife, gender inequities, denial of human rights, suppression of natural human feelings etc. These are the facts. Not beliefs.

fidpan, I appologize..I did read it wrong the first time

So, what is wrong with teaching religion in church and teaching math, science, history etc. in class. If you want your kids to know about religion take them to church.

I haven't read this post for many days, but going through it compelled me to preach.
I'd like to ask the student one question: Are you willing to risk your eternity on your opinion? Since the Bible has undergone such scrutiny, through investigation, and thousands of years of testing, you may want to at least research what it has to say about Hell, salvation and where Christ fits into the picture.
As stated before, I personally don't care one way or the other what this kid did in class, I care more about his personal reasons for denying the validity of the Bible.
I'd like to get him to read a book I was given recently entitled "23 Minutes In Hell" By Bill Wiese. It changed my mind about alot of things, and I don't deny the Bible.

JM727 I'd like to commend you for your thirst for knowledge. I think its great when young people like yourself devote yourself to acquiring knowledge as you have. I too studied the major religions as well as Zoroastrianism an other Mystery Religions at a young age (decades before you were born). There's a big difference between religions such as Mithraism. The Bible it records the names of people who really lived, Kings, Governors, places and cities that exist. I could travel to the Middle East and stand where Jesus taught the Sermon on the Mount. I can go to the places where Paul stood and preached. These events happened in space and time and history and mythology does not. You stated the Bible as unreliable because it has a bias ( A point we must agree to disagree on) yet one can argue quite convinceingly that the sources you consult have a bias of their own. They begin with a conclusion that Christianity is not true and set out to prove their hypothesis.
You mention sources outside the Bible, what of Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger? They are unbiased sources from the 1st century that speak of the events and the person of Jesus recorded in the "unreliable" source? I pray that you will continue to study and that your study will lead you back to the Savior you were raised to know. He loves you more than you will ever know.

Courtjester, you need to be more like your name and lighten up. The Blog has gone down some interesting roads. I've enjoyed them all, the main discourse and the side trails, there should be a freedom to let the discussion go where it may.

Actually, THIS forum is about "Bible incident draws concerns".

sorry you took it so personal...but I have my right to my opinion, as well..Isn't that what this forum is all about..

"GOD" or "creator" is never defined. "in god we trust" or "one nation under god" or "our creator". god or creator is for you to decide which god or creator you believe in. atheist do not believe in god or a creator and there for is not a religion. we do not pray to any god and niether does buddah. "cyndee" wants everyone to be just like her or they are wrong. how christian of her. real christians love everyone and never push their views on others.

one other thing I forgot to mention is President Eisenhower got the words "under GOD" from Abraham Lincolns Gettysburg address.

bibledude..I have enjoyed your comments...
JM727... "one Nation , under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954, by President Eisenhower, He said " In this way we are affirming the transcendence of religious faith in Americas heritage and future,In this way we constantly strengthen those spirtual weapons which forever will be our countrys most powerful resource in peace and war"..... speaks for itself, I would say....I suppose if a child was having a temper tantrum in a store and that parent removed him from the store.... you would call that HATRED... NO, its because he is bothering other people...plain and simple...and I don't think anyone around that child would hate it .... And the point I was trying to make and hope you will contemplate is "Faith is simple" It is believing in something you sometimes have no proof of...Seek prayer for some of your answers..You may conclude you can't find all your answers in Mans word alone.

bibledude, I have respect for what you're studied it enough to know that the entire foundsaying,and for your opinions, but sources coming from the party itself which is involved (in this case, the bible and the Church) cannot be looked upon as a source of reliable information. That would be akin to taking the word of the Nazis on trial at Nuremberg as the definitive account of the Holocaust. It's not credible. For something to have truth to it, it almost invariably has to be written by an outside source. Of course the Church is going to say that they're right and attempt to back up their own doctrine. Nothing is self-justifying.

"Christianity to my knowledge is the only 'religion' that encourages questioning"--midnight

--Not quite. Buddhism makes Christianity look like fundamentalist Islam by comparison. I'm not a Buddhist, but I've studied it enough to know that the entire foundation of the of the religion is that truth is subjective, and to find peace of your own accord. Indeed, a quote by Buddha is "do not believe something simply because it is said by a man who is supposed to be holy, or because it is in a book said to be holy. Likewise, do not take believe what I have said merely because I have said it. Rather, search for yourself, and whatever you find to be reasonable and good, then accept that."

cynndee, I admire your enthusiasm, but you're pretty erroneous. "Under God" and "In God We Trust" were not in the public domain until the 1950's, during the heights of McCarthyism. though "In God We Trust" was printed on coins long before then, it's true. The Founding Fathers were not religious men. They believed in (a) god, but not necessarily the god of the bible. Jefferson and Adams were scathing in their criticisms of Christianity and of the bible. Jefferson, in fact, called it "the most violent, savage book ever concocted, filled with altogether ill morals."
Saying the child should be removed is an act of hatred, don't you see? It's the embodiment of the intolerance that you claim to be so against.

I'm sure that this all seems not credible to some of you. In fact, were I 20 years older, I would probably write it all off as teenage ignorance/arrogance. But, believe it or not, I'm a teenager who actually reads, who researches, who's spent a good chunk of his life learning on history, religion, philosophy and science from any place that I could garner information. I've read books written by people on both sides, and talked to people on both sides. I attended a religious school for 9 years, during which I attended church thrice a week. I'm not simply pulling things out of the air. I can't claim to have a degree in anything, but I do know what I'm talking about.

After reading the comments, it is clear that there are several teens writing who know everything, and because they know everything, they can be taught nothing. I have had a number of students in my courses who know everything, and I would never actually hire one of them.

There are certain forms to speeches. They are to inform or to persuade. This speech obviously did neither. Why it was graded as a B rather than an F is more than I can understand. One of the rules of speech making is that you do not insult your audience. In fact, you try to anticipate audience reactions. Once you have insulted them, you will persuade no one and the speech has no value. The speech fails of its intent. This speech had one purpose (in the eyes of the speech maker) and one purpose only: to create a sensation; a sensation was obviously not part of the assignment. In grading, I do fault the teacher.

I teach speech. I guess I read the comments with a different focus in mind. It's tough to know where to draw the line between free will and respect - the two struggle to co-exist. In order to allow the free will and expression of one student in my class, it shut up the ideas of several others. They ended up bullied because of my poor management. Teens are sharp - their minds are working overtime and they are seeking to put centuries of material into their brains and catch up. They amaze me in what they accomplish before 20. As long as they don't stop seeking, they are in a good place. I never stop seeking. I am a Christian, and with every question, every doubt, I have found myself sticking to Christianity. I still have unresolved issues, but they seem nothing in comparison to dropping what I do have. I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist by Geisler has been a book that has helped me work through the evolution/design issues. I highly recommend it. It's logically argued and I use the book to teach how to put forth an argument. In this post-modern society, argument isn't as popular as it was before and it's getting lost. Seek and you will find...and yes, I pray you all find satisfactory answers. Christianity to my knowledge is the only 'religion' that encourages questioning - it isn't self-protecting/cultish in that respect. ASK. SEEK. And may peace rule in each heart. Thanks to each of you for your interesting and stimulating discussion.

Fidpan..Religion is not forced upon children in the school system...They would not teach evolution and the fact that the Earth is millions of years old if that was true. Those facts are unbiblical.

JM727 thank you again for the lively and thought provoking discussion.
I find it amazing how your sources are flawless and the scripture has no validity whatsoever in your mind. My point in saying I believe the words of Paul is that scripture has credibility in my eyes and in the eyes of many. You make many statements contradicting the words of Paul (which you admit he said) and the writings of Biblical scholars more intelligent and studied then you or I. Why should I believe your sources over mine? Where is the proof that your sources are correct?
You say that there is nothing is the scripture that states that Messiah would be the incarnation of Yahweh but that is not true. Isaiah and Micah both wrote in 700 B.C. Isaiah 9:6 writes that a child will be born to them that will be called among other titles "Mighty God" "Everlasting Father". Micah 5:2 states that a Ruler will go forth from Bethlehem (a small town indeed) who goings forth are from the days of eternity. The statements regarding Pauls diciples writing the gospels are outlandish and false. No credible student of textual criticism holds to that belief. You can read the writings of the early church fathers who wrote in the 1st and second centuries as to the origin of Mark and other Gospels and simply dismiss their testimony shows an unwillingness on your part to treat sources that contradict your view with any sort of fairness. If it disagrees with you, no matter how credible, it must be false. It's impossible to teach a person like that anything. There's a saying that goes "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
Lastly, the material I've read regarding Mithraism shows a great deal of debate and uncertainty regarding this religion and its practices yet you speak with more certainty then the researchers of this religion do.
There's even debate regarding the tauroctony how are you so sure that your interpretations are correct?

I may not be as educated as you would like but I do know our country was founded on Biblical beliefs...What do you do with "one nation under GOD". Yes .. the constitution guaranteed freedom of religion.... Where is a Christians freedom...It is our CHRIST who is being taken out of Christmas and schools and we aren't suppose to say Merry Christmas or Christmas tree... What about our rights.... Why should our values have to change when as any HIGHLY intelligent person can see we originally had based our values on GOD and JESUS CHRIST. BY the percentage of the people, by the people and for the people..I am appallled that you think Christians would want this childs head on a stick...I have love for him because it is GODS commandment and my purpose for writing is the concern for his soul.... The old Testament was here long before JESUS and it predicted the coming of the MESSIAH....I have faith that the bible is divinely inspired because GOD is perfect....you are correct when you say alot of things have no proof,,,Thats where faith comes in and if you don't have faith, which God gives as a gift and you don't take the gift, you will NEVER get it...Because I have a strong faith I would of been down right scared to be in the presence of someone ripping up the bible because of my love and reverance for these things...As with some of the other comments, I too wonder what prelude these actions could be to something else,I'm sure other schools where violence occured said the same thing, It won't happen here, Anytime an act of violence happens at school , for what ever reason, that child should be removed for the safety of our other children. But hate that child...NO TRUE CHRISTIAN WOULD!!!!!!!

Also, just to mention

"Read the Declaration of Independence for the acurate reason why this country was founded. It mentions there being a creator more than once."

--Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration, was a Deist and did not believe in a definable god. The same is true of John Adams and Bejamin Franklin, the trifecta who were the heart and soul of the founding of America. Jefferson didn't write the phrases about "providence" or people being endowed by their "creator"--it was insisted that they be put in by one member of the 2nd Continental Congress, namely, a member from the Georgian Delegation who also happened to be a pastor. He refused to acknowledge the Declaration as legitimate unless it contained such mentions of divinity. So it was not the will of the founding fathers for that statement to be in there; rather the dogma of one man.

"Little is known about this Mystery religion of Mithraism as little is written about it and most of what we know is from iconography."
-That's a flat out lie. Historians, Archaeologists, and scholars, most notably Franz Cumont and David Ulansey, have spent decades researching Mithraism. You're correct in saying that it was a Mystery religion and that much of it was passed down through initiation--there are, indeed, no significant written descriptions. But through the culture, art, artifacts, and beliefs of the populations that practiced Mithraism, a general structure of the religion can be easily assembled. For instance, it is accepted--not hypothesized, but /accepted/--that Mithras was born on Dec. 25th, the personification of the Unconquerable Sun, of "The Light of the World," and that he had 12 followers who ate the flesh and drank the blood of their victorious savior. To say that nothing is known about it is a blatant lie; numerous colleges have courses in Zoroastrianism and Mithraism.

"Further, Messianic hope comes from writings of Old Testament prophets not Pagan origin."
-Indeed. The old testament has many mentions of a coming messiah. It's mentioned, among other things, that he would be lead the Jews to freedom, unify Israel and lead it to glory. Those things certainly didn't happen with Jesus. In fact, it was not long after Jesus died that the Romans utterly obliterated the state of Judea during the Jewish revolt, and scattered the Jews for nearly 2,000 years.
The idea of a Messiah had nothing to do with being sacrificed or being god itself. That is where the pagan elements come in. Again, the Messiah was to be a leader--a divine leader, yes, but not an incarnation of yahweh itself. Further, it was foretold that the Messiah had to be a blood descendant of King David. If we are to believe the bible, then Joseph was a descendant of David (though the Gospels give wildly different versions of Jesus' lineage.) There's a problem though--according to Christianity, Jesus was not the son of Joseph. The Immaculate Conception means that he did not have an earthly father. As such, Jesus did not carry the blood of King David in him, so missing one of the key elements of the Messiah that was foretold.

"Paul himself writes in Acts and his epistles how and why he became a follower of Christ. I choose to believe what Paul says of himself"

-Wow, what an enlightened argument to make. "It's true because the bible says so." Nice try.

"The Gospel of Mark is regarded as the oldest writing of the New Testament who wrote with the Apostle Peter as his source according to the early Church Fathers Irenaeus, Origen, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria and others."

Untrue. All of the gospels were written by people who were recording the stories that had been passed down to them. The authors were not present at the time of Jesus, nor were they dictated to by anyone who was. The authors of the Gospels, according to nearly any biblical scholar worth his salt, were students of people who preached the message of Jesus nearly a century after his death.

"Paul was a student in Judaism not Mithraism."
--Again, not true. Saul lived and grew up in Tarsus, which was where a large part of the Mithraic movement was based, where its main temple was. He was not a Jew until his supposed"conversion" on the road to Damascus. he was employed by the Roman government in their suppression of the followers of the (then deceased) Jesus. Roman soldiers, and those in the employ of the Romans, were, without variance, Pagan, and at the very least, certainly not Jewish. It was Paul who founded Christianity through his teachings--he did not convert to any religion. He merely changed to the side of the Jews who believed Jesus had been the Messiah, took his own pagan traditions, and mixed the two.

cynndee: We run our school systems? News to me.
And yeah. It does say something is wrong. Not /him/ doing what he did, I'd have to say it's all of you judging him that is wrong.
Whether you agree with him or not, he had the right. It is a /book/, after all.
Judging him at this point, gets you no where, and laying blame on the troublesome, scandalous kids of today is purely hypocritical.

Justsaynotomath: "'in god we trust' was not added until 1956": Maybe it wasn't added to the dollar bill until 1956, but it was added to coins nearly 100 years earlier: http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-shee...

Also, "our country was NOT founded on god. it was founded on the freedom from god and the right to practice or NOT practice religion." Read the Declaration of Independence for the acurate reason why this country was founded. It mentions there being a creator more than once. If you want to go back further, tell me where to look to find a reference about the first settlers coming here to be free of religion. My understanding was they wanted freedom to practice the religion they chose.

Just wanted to make those points to defend the person you attacked so harshly with "Now, read a book or two and get some 'facts' before making such a uneducated comment!"

Isn't there somway we can blame the GM employees for this?
That seems to be a common theme in this forum...

Okay, so let me get this straight. A kid rips up a bible during a speech and then gets suspended. A group of kids then protest by wearing t-shirts. I was raised Catholic and what my faith taught me is tolerance. Everyone has a right to believe in whatever they chose. They also have a right to express that choice. But that choice, that expression, cannot interfere with another persons right to believe and express. Practice what you preach and be very careful about judging others.

Boristhespider...I couldn't have said it better myself. I am still trying to figure out what my beliefs are. I try to be as practical as I can. Sure, Jesus existed, but we have a book, translated who knows how many times. Where is the original? Even different translations of the Bible, if you compare them, say different things. I'm not saying the words were not Divinly inspired, but they were passed down, over and over, by men, who, as a society, can screw up the simplest things. And we are to believe they were 'on the money' with this?

"in god we trust" was not added until 1956 and our country was NOT founded on god. it was founded on the freedom from god and the right to practice or NOT practice religion. read a book or two and get some "facts" before making such a uneducated comment!

Very interesting commentary and debate. I have enjoyed reading the posts. We have gone done some interesting trails. One that has intrigued me is that of JM727 who has obviously studied textual criticism of the scripture. So much is inaccurate I hardly know where to begin. The Gospel of Mark is regarded as the oldest writing of the New Testament who wrote with the Apostle Peter as his source according to the early Church Fathers Irenaeus, Origen, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria and others. Paul was a student in Judaism not Mithraism. Little is known about this Mystery religion of Mithraism as little is written about it and most of what we know is from iconography. It was a very secretive religion passed on from inititate to initiate. Evidence to draw these far fetched conclusions does not exist. Further, Messianic hope comes from writings of Old Testament prophets not Pagan origin. Paul himself writes in Acts and his epistles how and why he became a follower of Christ. I choose to believe what Paul says of himself. So much more I could write but I'll close by saying I have a degree in Biblical studies and have studied this subect matter at both undergraduate and graduate level and this is the first time I've heard such far reaching conclusions as JM727 has made.

I am so saddened that we now live in a society where the big concern is whether a child is suspended from school for profanity or ripping up the bible. How Sad!! Doesn't the violence and the shootings in our school show we are doing something wrong as a nation? Our Country was founded on Godly princapals. Our currency says "In God we trust". When did it change? Our fore fathers woud surely be shocked to be living in a world we have today? I feel very badly for the school system,Their hands are tied, the children run them. Everyone is so focused on the individuality of their own rights, that we have lost our basic values and beliefs that once made us a great nation. Believe it or not son , you will be judged someday for ripping up that bible "if you don't change your heart".

thank god i am out of the public school system in this town, i cannot wait until i can move away what is the world coming to

Apparently, most people are equally as uninformed about biblical history and how Christianity as a religion was actually formed as they are about biology.

Saul of Tarsus was a pagan originally, a practitioner of Mithraism, an offshoot of Zoroastrianism. Mithraism contains myriad similarities with Christianity, specifically the practice of the transmutation of bread and wine into the essence of a divine savior, Mithras in this case, Jesus in the case of Christianity. The Eucharist hosts were signed with a cross, an ancient phallic symbol which originated in Egypt, and the Egyptian cross (the ankh) still shows the original form which included the female symbol. Mithraism also used a form of baptism to induct new members of the religion.

The entirety of Christianity is a mix of Judaism and Paganism. There are innumerable pagan figures that bear striking similarities to Jesus' story: a common pagan idea was that of a half-mortal, half-god king who would be born of a virgin and then sacrificed to the god from whence it come in exchange for something; usually fertility or agricultural bounty. Many of these GodMen were sacrificed by being nailed to trees.

This was the background which Saul came from; when he learned of Yeshua (Jesus' Hebrew name) and that some had proclaimed him to be a Messiah, which, to Jews, is a King who rules by divine right from God and who would lead the Jews to freedom, who would release them from their slavery underneath the Romans. In Judea at that time there were dozens of preachers professing to be the Messiah; people who would cast off the yoke of the Roman oppressors, free the Jews and bring Israel to glory. This is what the Jews were waiting for.

Saul confused this idea of a "Messiah"--a Divine King-- with the Pagan ideal of a "Christ"--a sacrificial Man/God king. He changed his name to Paul and professed to believe in the godliness of Jesus.

That was the foundation that Christianity was based upon. Not the teachings of Jesus.

Those who wrote the Gospels were not the original Apostles (another similarity to Mithraism: Mithra also had 12 Apostles). They were students of Paul, it was HIS teachings about Jesus that were written down in the New Testament. This happened some 90 years after Jesus' death. Paul then went on to wrote 7 Epistles and 6 more under pseudonyms. In short, Paul wrote nearly the entirety of the New Testament. The bible records his beliefs, his interpretation.

This is evinced in the fact that there were myriad strands of Christianity at the beginning of the faith, including many movements who believed that Jesus never truly existed, and that the story was metaphorical. The Paulite Christians and the Gnostics were involved in fierce internecine violence for generations, until the Paulite doctrine eventually won out, by eradicating most of the Gnostics. From its conception, Christianity was a religion based in blood, as is Islam.

In response to this posting by DrTalk

"There is evidence: it's called eye witnesses. People saw Jesus die on the cross. Three days later, people saw him alive. You're assuming the Bible is just a book of "stories" passed down for generations. Let's say the kids who witnessed danneskjold's speech collaborated on a book; they each gave their account of what really happened. 2,000 years from someone says "danneskjold never existed. There's no evidence." Well, someone could find the book written by those students to prove that person wrong. Sorry, but you're wrong when you say there is no proof that Jesus is God."

I don't claim to be an expert on the bible, but if I remember right, in my History of Western Civilization class I was told that the New Testament was written by people who were not eye witnesses of the stories. Instead the stories were passed down to them from other people. I'm not sure how a book written 2,000 years ago by various authors that took over 100 years after the death of Christ to write could be considered proof. You seem to love to point out the kind argument fallacies people are using, when you are clearly using a red-herring/digression/misdirection/false emphasis when comparing the class writing a book based on an eyewitness account of the speech with the writing of the bible to prove that Jesus is god. Plus you are mixing "proving the existence of Jesus" with "proving that Jesus is God." These are clearly 2 diffrent things. I'm sure most educated Atheists belive that Jesus existed and don't believe Jesus is God. I believe that the Parker student gave the speech and I believe he exists. I believe that Jesus existed but I don't believe there is any proof that Jesus is God.

Oh grow up, Maxwell.
He didn't hold a gun to every kid's head in the classroom and force them to understand that god doesn't exist and the bible is a book.
He didn't shove it down anyone's throats.
The people that are offended are truly the immature ones in this case.
I agree with Rush. You won't be insulted if you don't allow yourself to be affected.
And I beg to differ, markymark. There's evidence of each individual's faith, but not solid evidence of God.

he didn't shove it down our throats. he fulfilled his project.

Bibles/religion should be left in the church and not brought into schools. It is not right to shove religion down peoples throats.

The evidence for God is NOWHERE, you say it's everywhere and give no examples. I want examples.

so let me get this straight...
If i "choose" not to believe in gravity, then i can fly?
No
There is evidence everywhere for God, you just need to see it, hopefully many of you posting in here that are pushing for atheism or other god-less beliefs will see this fact. The evidence for God is everywhere!

Yes, everyone has a right to not be insulted, SO DON'T BE INSULTED by what others say. Only you control if you're insulted or not. People don't have to be but they do just so they have something to argue about.

insults in high school are not in short supply on a daily bases in high school. jokingly or not.

While there is much good debate over the religeous issues here, what about the original issue. Ripping up a book as a class demonstration is one thing, insulting people in the room based on their religeous beliefs is another. To logically debate an issue is healthy and acceptable. To name call is not only immature, but these days is possibly dangerous and should not be allowed.

If this student had said the same things about Jews or Muslims and ripped up the Torah or Quran there would be no question that he earned at least a suspension from school. All students have the right to go to English class and not be persecuted even if they are Christians. The mom said that her son was struggling with religion, but English class is not a forum for religious bigotry, at least not at Craig. It's really sad that mom is so permissive of such inappropriate behavior and tries to rationalize that it was "freedom of speech." His rights do not supercede all the other kids' rights to not be harrassed.

i find it very concerning that a young boy has more facts then the adults commenting on him. if the people on here spent as much time reading as they do hating,this conversation would be moot. science is based on facts as we know them. god is not based on any facts. believers can't even seem to do simple math ? try educating yourself and stop using god as an excuse for your blind faith. atheism is not going away and 12 million atheist "freedom from religion foundation" are just a small portion of the real number of nonbelievers. good thing babyboomers "dark agers" will all die over the next 2 decades and atheism will become the norm. to the young boy stay strong and keep up the good fight !

Being insulted isn't even that bad. I don't understand the concept of being offended. Why can't anyone just shrug it off? WHY? Can't anyone answer me that?? You can't make someone else see it your way so you get upset, that's all it is, selfishness.

Sure.
They died like everyone else dies.
Or were they struck by lightning from God himself? I suppose I don't know, and neither do you.

danneskjold:"I do not need recount all the instances of mass murder and injustice that has taken place in the name of religion."

Then how about mentioning all the people that were murdered at the hands of atheists like Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot.

rEAsontrace,
It was not an opinion; it was an ad hominem attack. There IS a difference.

Just because the Romans didn't "own up" for what they did, doesn't mean there weren't consequenses for their actions.

DrTalk - He clearly said "I called the class a bunch of superstitious, simple-minded(I mean narrow-minded) ignoramuses. There IS a difference between ignorance and stupidity."
I don't believe he's wrong at all.

And I have to ask. Does the bible say that forgiveness comes after he "takes responsibility" for his actions?
I was under the impression that Jesus forgave the Romans after they crucified him. They may or may not have realized who he was afterwards, but did they ever 'own up'?
Ahah.
No.
Why should the student apologize for what he believes or thinks, or for his opinion?

rEAsontrace,
"The bible mentions forgiveness for trespasses and whatnot. When does that come in? Let me know."
It comes in when a person takes responsibility for their actions. I have no problem with him ripping the Bible, but I do have a problem with him insulting his classmates. If you read his post further down, he states that he was not sorry that he did it. Actions have consequences and you have to accept responsibility for them.

In response to Simon who posted further down the page:
Why should he post his real name?
How would that prove his maturity?

Since he's under such scrutiny and criticism, it's obviously to keep himself safe.
Are you using your entire name? Your own identity?
I didn't think you were.
I don't believe anyone here is.
Don't be stupid.

God's (if you believe in god) greatest creation was probably free will. You can't look at a pile of ants and know what they are all doing. All that matters in all religions is being a good person. God made earth then sat back to enjoy the show. Watched the earth evolve.

DrTalk, 2000 years from now people wouldn't have questioned dannes' existance because what he did is a lot easier to comprehend than someone being God. Also, I'm not saying let kids say bad words because adults do, but let them say bad words because they will anyway. Who has a right to tell someone a word is bad? Did people just not like the way the word sounded and make it evil? Saying the word is bad is what makes people want to say it. If it could just be a word like any other word and children weren't taught it was bad maybe it wouldn't attract so much attention. It goes back to what I've said about 'sticks and stones' nobody really gives any heart to that. When someone else says something you don't like why is it so hard to let it go? You have every right to think they are an idiot in your head and you don't have to take it to heart. There is always a different opinion, always names to call, always seems to be a flaw in everyone's post on this page. This argument will never be settled because either way, when you're dead and find out you can't come back and say "I told you so". It's not even worth arguing. Just stop taking what others say so darn seriously and accept that not everyone has the same morals. The world would be boring if everyone obeyed all the rules all the time.

yea. idk who started linking it with believing in the devil...

The definitions of atheism are thus:

someone who denies the existence of god
One who rejects or is ignorant of theism.
A person for whom the idea of god is senseless. Not to be confused with a person who hates (and neccessarily believes in the existence of) god.

It really shouldn't be linked with worshipping the devil.

One more thing, I seemed to have left out.
By no means would I want to live by what the bible says anyway.
Those of you that claim the bible is the word of god...do you really think god wants all of this?

http://home.earthlink.net/~owl233/bibleq...

Foreigners as property? Raped women forced to marry their rapists? Women are inferior? Children who curse should be killed? So my mother would be unclean for two weeks for having given birth to me, a girl, and she'd be a slave for being foreign?
I wouldn't mourn the ripping of the pages of the bible so much.

and yea. Elle was seeking attention. People on both sides, friends of mine, think that what she did was over the top. But as i said, i find her more of a threat at parker than him. If she can't handle other people's religious views, then maybe she should stay out of public school's cause she's too 'fragile' for other people's views.

nice. but just a note he isn't atheist, he's
irreligious. atheist is usually considered with believing in the devil..

As a Parker senior (and junior, as I'm typing this with a friend with similar opinions), this incident seems hardly even worthy of being in the paper, much less on the front page.
First off. I don't think I've ever fully understood how ignorant and closed-minded the citizens of this town actually are. This student, whose topic for presentation /was/ approved by the teacher, is under fire for what reason? It's somewhat unclear at this point. I almost think, with all this feedback, that people are just furious with the fact that an atheist spoke up in school. Newsflash, all. The bible is /literally/ a material. Book. There's nothing hidden in it other than good ideas and /theories/. It's a book. It's made of paper, and it's bound like every other book. So he ripped it. Freedom of expression. Freedom of speech, etc. And I'm Christian (but, apparently more open-minded than most). I'm not in the least bit offended by it. Grow up. Why is this act such a massive issue? I don't necessarily agree with what he did, but I don't think it's cause for punishment in the least.
Second. Let me get something straight. So it's totally unacceptable for the atheist to call Christians ignorant, but just fine to consider him psychologically unstable and forced to see a psychologist? Hah. Oh you people. You should see how some of us see you. You look. Ridiculous. As a Christian, I find the rest of you unforgivable hypocrites.
Which brings me to a second point. The bible mentions forgiveness for trespasses and whatnot. When does that come in? Let me know.
As for the student being accused of 'seeking attention'? Oh, I'm sorry. Was he the one that had an interview with the Gazette? He DECLINED the interview. It seems to me Elle is the one grabbing for attention. Before this whole incident I didn't know that side of her. Now that I do, I find her over dramatic, superfluous, and, frankly, obnoxious. Violated? Please. Parker is a public school. You want the safety and the perfect walls blocking out reality, go to a private school. We have no shortage of those in Janesville by any means.
Creation and evolution are both THEORIES. If he believes Christianity is ludicrous, you can't really blame him. There's no solid evidence. There's speculation. That's why you have faith. You have faith, then fine. Why should this bother you? Clearly you have your own doubts if his actions and speech offends you. We're in the 21st century. Things will be said and done and unless it's a physical act against another, I /hardly/ think it's worth throwing a tantrum over.
Self righteousness gets you nowhere.
Most teenagers understand that.
When did the rest of you forget?

this has become quite a religious debate...
personal i do believe in god, but don't hold myself to the bible because i see it as quite biased. so who knows how much is true and isn't for sure. its like the salem witch trials where the girls made up things because they were outright bored. i'm not saying it is plain outright false. but i don't hold myself to it. and yes. Elle, was the student i was talking about. and personal, i find her more of a threat to parker than danneskjold. and some of the info she said was outright false.

There was a time when Creationists rejected the Theory of Evolution outright. Now the environment is making such demands that in order for Creationists to survive (at least in a quasi-rational sense) they must rely on a hardwired ability to adapt -adapt by way of some semblance of reasoning:

Creationists concede that evolution exists but at the same time claim that it is not continuous and that the occasional imposition of God is required to make it complete. This thinking is evidence of an intermediary state of adaption: like the proto-eye that could detect light but could not yet see the finer details of that light's source.

Rush2112,
"No matter what we'll all know the words when we're adults so why try to stop kids from saying it? It does not make any sense."
So basically your argument is to let kids say bad words because adults do. That is a "argument" from popularity fallacy. Religion didn't invent risque language, but let's say you're right. Wouldn't the encourage atheists to not use risque language? But if atheists use risque language because it was invented by religion, then it's the "argument" from popularity fallacy again.
"And just because Jesus was a real person there's no REAL proof that he was god, that is just a tradition passed down like Santa Clause."
There is evidence: it's called eye witnesses. People saw Jesus die on the cross. Three days later, people saw him alive. You're assuming the Bible is just a book of "stories" passed down for generations. Let's say the kids who witnessed danneskjold's speech collaborated on a book; they each gave their account of what really happened. 2,000 years from someone says "danneskjold never existed. There's no evidence." Well, someone could find the book written by those students to prove that person wrong. Sorry, but you're wrong when you say there is no proof that Jesus is God.

Fossilization is a fairly rare occurrence. Nearly all living things that die are completely recycled in a short period of time to provide energy and building blocks for the next cycle of life. Under certain natural conditions the scavengers and microbes are cheated of their usual feast and an organism is preserved as a fossil. Try to think of the history of life as a reel of film with billions of frames each showing an organism that existed at that time. Now think of that same film with only a tiny percentage of the frames surviving destruction. We get a glimpse of what was here and there, but no uninterrupted linear progression of organisms to demonstrate generational changes. Creationists have used this weakness of the fossil record to bamboozle the uneducated and less intelligent into accepting fantastic ideas. And by the way, the theory of the evolution of species by natural selection has nothing to do with the Bible, nor does it contradict the Bible unless someone is trying to achieve fame and fortune by doing so.

Where are the fossils of giraffes with short necks?
Whenever Creationists start to get a voice in the educational system in the States, the Evolutionists are there even before the first verse is quoted. Armed with court orders, they are able to impose their beliefs on students without any consideration for basic human rights, such as the freedom of speech, or the freedom of religion.

Might I also point out that many of you have accused him as doing it only for attention. He isn't the one going to the news, like that Elle girl. He refused to talk to the Gazette. He is trying to get the attention OFF of himself, because it's not half as big of a deal as everyone else is making it. Risque language? RELIGION invented risque language, it's because of religion that we call a word a bad word. No matter what we'll all know the words when we're adults so why try to stop kids from saying it? It does not make any sense. And just because Jesus was a real person there's no REAL proof that he was god, that is just a tradition passed down like Santa Clause.

first off on Darwin's theories...It takes more faith to believe in that than in a higher power.

Second off, to the student (and i hope you read this) please do some whole hearted research. Many people (probably even people smarter than you) have tried to prove the Bible wrong and all that has happened was they couldn't and thus were left with the Bible being actually true. Many of the "stories" in the Bible are recorded in other writings as well outside the Bible by other historians writing at that time, these people did not believe in God and so had no reason to write for "their own agenda."

Read "Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. He tries to prove the Bible wrong, just like you were trying to do in your speech. I think you will find it enlightening.

Ohh and one more thing...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!

This was on NBC 15 webpage today...I'm thinking Bill O'Reilly is next.

"JM727 knows how to Google! If you ever read any of Darwin's books you also would know how he thought. He used statements like, my thoughts are..., and what I've been thinking.... Try educating yourself before you throw around your useless googled opinions."

Excellent retort,friend. It seems you simply had neither the facts or evidence to refute anything that has been said in opposition to your viewpoint, nor anything worthwhile to contribute to the conversation in general, and so felt it necessary to toss about the only way you could think of to discredit someone. Google? Really? I'm rather disappointed; if you were going to go that route, I would have thought that you would have at least accused me of using Wikipedia.

No, sir, I have been educated in the conduct of proper inquiry into such matters, using the texts upon which this matter revolves, and supporting materials to both sides.

I have read both The Origin of Species and The Descent of Man. I have read numerous other tomes on evolution throughout my (admittedly still young) life. I have also read the bible numerous times and read works by and talked to proponents of intelligent design. I have looked at both sides equally, which is certainly more than can be said for the gentleman who posted the nonsense quoted above.
It's certainly easy to round up everything you don't agree with and dismiss it as "opinion." There's a problem however; it's accepted as fact by those who spend the entirety of their lives devoted singularly to the topic and is backed up by millions of years' worth of evidence. Where's the evidence of the divinity of the bible? Inside the bible itself, which is a logical impossibility. Many passages are so laughably erroneous--in Genesis 8:2, it's written that "The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." Yes, rain is caused by the windows of heaven being opened. If you'd like to argue that this is not to be taken literally, then the logical conclusion is that the bible itself is a metaphor and not to be taken literally.
There is a phrase that evangelicals use about the bible ofen: The text is either truth, or it is not.
I wholeheartedly agree. You cannot pick and choose. If you'd like to believe that the universe was created solely for you, you must also believe that slavery is encouraged by god, and that if a woman is raped by a man and does not cry out loud enough, she is to be stoned to death for dishonoring her family.
You must also believe that, as Jesus said, he came "not to bring peace...but as a sword," and that hell does not exist and that it will not until the Second Coming which, at his Ascension, Jesus declared would happen before certain people present at the aforementioned event had passed away.

danneskjold,
There are a few problems with your posts.

1."I said it was not holy, because really, grow up people."
That's not an argument. You didn't list any acutally reasons why the Bible is not holy.

2."I called the class a bunch of superstitious, simple-minded(I mean narrow-minded) ignoramuses. There IS a difference between ignorance and stupidity. And the people that got offended by what I said, even though they weren't even THERE, just supports my argument."
Calling people names is not an argument; it's an ad hominem fallacy.
3."So I merely grabbed my bible and said this book has been halting the intellectual advancement of humans for centuries"
Many of the sciences were founded by Christians who read the Bible.
4. "The phrase 'sand in the vagina' means that someone is agitated or frustrated with the conditions they are living and the world around them."
So why didn't you just simply say that they were agitated or frustrated instead of using risque language?

Rush2112,

Belief in Santa Claus is an informal fallacy called "argument" from tradition. Which is more foolish: A child who believes in Santa Claus or the parents for passing on a story about a man in a red suit delivering presents on Christmas (simply because it's "tradition")?
Belief in Jesus is does not fall into the "argument" from tradition category because there is historical evidence that He actually existed.

Is not calling him immature name calling? Just having an opinion is name calling now. You are guilty of calling him immature just as much as he is for calling people ignorant. The way I see it is that a very, very high majority of Christians are taught to believe what they are told from the time they are little. It's just like Santa Clause. Little kids believe Santa is real because they get their presents under the tree. Little kids believe in Jesus because they get presents on his birthday, it is bribery, there's no proof for them there, no Jesus under the tree, then tie in the happy memories on Christmas, all in the name of Jesus, that is really all they know, the name. It's as simple as brainwashing and I'm not saying this to get anyone mad, I seriously want you to consider it. Picture someone going out in the middle of nowhere with a class of kindergarten students and telling them that a banana created the world, and have a book written about it filled with clever sayings and stories of wisdom. Then have fancy dressed adults teach them the stories and make arts and crafts every Sunday. Bring those kids back to modern civilization and show them someone eating a banana. Some may cry, some may be enraged. The person with the banana looks up and asks what's the matter, when the kid explains, bam, they think he's crazy and needs a psychiatrist.

My point is here that he didn't harm anyone physically, and he wouldn't have, and from the time were born parents say 'sticks and stones, blah blah blah'.Then when those instances happen we disregard that saying because we're offended. The key to peace, is not getting offended but to ask, "I wonder what makes him/her feel that way, maybe I should ask before I jump to such extreme conclusions".

Kudos to this young man who stood up and blatantly revealed his feelings. And kudos to those who liked it, agreed with him, and supported him. And kudos who those who didn't like it, and complained. It's called America, people. Agree to disagree, respect one another, and move on. Everyone has rights - the right to be heard, the right to agree or disagree. Can't we all just get along?

I will throw in my thoughts here as well; however I have no intentions of expressing my own view on religion. My opinion deals not with my beliefs, but a common sense and set of moral standards.

Janesville is not a very cultured society, whether one wishes to admit it or not. The vast population is mostly middle-class, white, and largely Christian. This speech aroused a great controversial issue within it's community, in which many opposed the given standpoint. Some of you need to be politely reminded that this speech was based on religion, Christianity in particular, and therefore cannot be found in comparison as if it was composed of an opposition to Martin Luther King.

I recall, that the "Christian thing to do" is to forgive; many of you preach your religion but fail to follow one of the great bases of its making. If you find what this person has said offensive, do not lash out. By doing so you fall into a pool of hypocrisy; which I find much further down the ladder than his use of "vulgar" language, for he does not fail to support his view.

Next I move on to the "war on Christianity" in the United States. The roots of the US spouted, grew, and continue to prosper from the diverse culture that founded this country. Immigrants were pushed to conform to a sort of WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) by dropping their native languages, religious beliefs, and customs. If they did not yield to do so, they faced shame. Today there exists a wonderful thing known as the separation of Church and State, allowing people to freely practice any religion. The government does not spew anger towards Christians, especially considering many of themselves practice Christianity. Nor may this "war" be blamed on the people of the country. No matter where you go, you will find people that have beliefs and ideas opposite to those in your life. Atheists are greatly shunned by many Christian denominations, so I would not be so quick to speak about a "War on Christianity," one might find a more appropriate term such as "Religious War" instead.

Calling this incident a "hate crime" is not in good interest either. He speaks out for what he believes in, which I support. Which does not necessarily mean the topic, but his lack of conformity. Our knowledge advancement comes from those who are brave enough not to conform. Stating an obvious example; learning that the world is round, or the idea that the Earth was not the center of the universe.

I could continue, but I will rest with this for now...

As a future leader of tomorrow, I vote we don't help peacegirl out in her old age. Lets Thank god For All The Problems In The World, and maybe he'll have answer for us someday.

If the children of today are the leaders of tomorrow,we are in sorry trouble. GOD HELP US ALL!

For those claiming to be Bible scholars, An interesting passage in this week's Economist:

"There is a difference, however, between getting and understanding a Holy Book. Here both Christianity and Islam suffer from serious problems. Americans buy more than 20m new Bibles every year to add to the four that the average American has at home. Yet the state of American biblical knowledge is abysmal. A Gallup survey found that less than half of Americans can name the first book of the Bible (Genesis), only a third know who delivered the Sermon on the Mount (Billy Graham is a popular answer) and a quarter do not know what is celebrated at Easter (the resurrection, the foundational event of Christianity). Sixty per cent cannot name half the ten commandments; 12% think Noah was married to Joan of Arc. George Gallup, a leading Evangelical as well as a premier pollster, describes America as “a nation of biblical illiterates”.

History is rife with examples of learned men of science getting things screwed up. These were men who, using the best tools available to them at the time, came up with theories that were believed by thousands of people. The response given to those who dared question these learned men - "Science! It works, people!"

Then, when better tools became available, those theories were...modified.

Even with all the advancements made with technology, today there are still things that remain unproven, that remain unprovable.

Personally, I don't need nor seek validation from science for my belief in God. I am able to rectify science and my religious beliefs to my own satisfaction. I am have no problem believing in both evolution and God, to my own satisfaction.

At the end of the day, I only need to answer to myself and to God. That's enough for me to be able to sleep at night.

You can question The Bible all you want and I'll like as not have no concrete answers for you. I have plenty of questions of my own that someday, God willing, will be answered.

Faith! It works, people!

One Christian's View.
God created the heavens and earth, in his "7 days" which was milleniums long. "Adam and Eve" is a story representing the first beings on earth that developed a conscience, felt shame, love and all the other attributes that seperate us from the animals. Evolution happened, but only by a grand scheme from a higher power.

That was a comment from yesterday when we were discussing several issues while you were at school! That is the nice thing about debates and forums, often several other ideas stem from them. So tell me what does your evolution theory have to do with the article?? I don't recall that being in there either, hmmmm...

"JM727: They do not attend Janesville schools and they have been told by teachers and administration not to say Merry Christmas, that they have to say Happy Holidays." --ncpanfan

Then what relevance does your statement have to the issue at hand? This is about a Parker student. Not a Beloit or Milton student.

SO before you call me a liar make sure you know WHAT you are talking about. Not appreciated at all.

JM727: They do not attend Janesville schools and they have been told by teachers and administration not to say Merry Christmas, that they have to say Happy Holidays.

Also I love the 'Europeans' analogy from manmise.

Thank you for making the "theory" argument JM727. People constantly write off evolution because it has that label, not knowing what the label really means. It's the same thing with big bang.

About the fossils, there are lots of examples. If you think there aren't any, you either don't read the news or haven't searched.

"My kids are forbidden to say Merry Christmas at school to anyone" - ncpan fan

Speaking as a current student (Senior, age 18) of Parker High, I can say definitively: No, they are not. That's how teachers greet the students this time of the year, and it's how most students respond. The administration says nothing about religious holidays; not Christmas and certainly not Kwanzaa or Hanukkah. If evident you have not an inkling of what you're saying; please don't lie. It just makes you seem desperate.

"I know what Darwin actually thought" - fldpan

Really? Gosh, I'm glad we have someone who was around in the mid 1800's and was able to both talk to Darwin and read his mind. Your arrogance, egotism and self-importance are quite mind-boggling.

Looking for a transitionary fossil? Try the Archaeopteryx. I'm sure some of the strident anti-evolutionists will claim that it's a fully formed bird, but scientists who have spent years studying and researching the creature have unanimously declared it not to be so.

Having a position of being "anti-evolution" is as ridiculous as being "anti-gravity." The use of the word "theory" in describing evolution is a misnomer, as "theory" in scientific usage means a scientific explanation that is unanimously or near-unanimously accepted as truth. Gravity is merely a theory, after all. evolution is no more unproven than gravity is.

And yet, none of that is the point of this story. The fact is, what this kid did was crass, vulgar and in extremely ill taste. It was not, however, illegal. What he said and did is completely protected by the first amendment.
He deserved to be suspended for a few days for the vulgarity and insults he used, but to require him to see a psychiatric evaluator is ludicrous and a strident infringement on the limits of administrtion authority; there is no precedent.

Again, speaking as a current student of Parker, I can say that for every student who was outraged at his actions, there was one who supported him and stood up for his right to say and do what he did, despite disagreeing with him.

Religion is not under attack. It is those who have no religion who are constantly tossed in with the faithful day in and day out, and are given no say whatsoever in governmental processes and in how the American populace is defined. It is ironic that America is described as a Christian nation when China has nearly as many--if not more--Christians than America does, and when America has the 2nd highest number of Jews outside of Israel and the highest number of Buddhists anywhere outside of South-East asia or Japan, the highest number of Hindus outside of India, etc.

And I went to a parochial school for 9 years.times. I have read the bible front to back a total of 4 times, unlike most of the people here engaging in fanatical lunacy, I would wager.

nogo, please.

I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness.

If he had done it calmly and without name calling and making some students feel threatened then he probably wouldn't have been suspended.

have people forgot the first amendment freedom or speech thats all it was a suspension was not required for this. if he would of ripped up the Geneva Convetion no one would of cared. people have to relize that the bible is just a book of phrases and the meaning is what is suppose to be taken not the pages. a true christian would realize that god wouldnt let one student take over the minds of our young in a class presentation.

Some one needs to get a life .. !

There's tons of proof that supports evolution. In fact the in between fossils that you say don't exist (although they do) are the proof for this.
Once again, I can't explain this as well as some other who have already explained it, so I'll just borrow their explanations. Regarding the fossil record there is a YouTube video that explains the 'missing' fossils: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w57_P9DZ... (it's at around 6 minutes if you don't want to watch the whole thing)
As for Darwin being racist here is another link: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA... Like the page mentions, Darwin's own views have nothing to do with evolution becuase "Evolution is based on evidence, not on people's opinions."

It's true that I haven't read The Origin of Species, but I have read a lot about evolution. And, the thing is these transitional fossils have been found.

Without the proper precautions taken in this classroom setting things could have easily escaladed and become more of a threat toward the student giving the speech as well as fellow class members. I think that the teacher if they hadn't followed proper precautions under this situation should be reprimanded at the least and if it wasn't the teacher who is at fault maybe the school will be under pressure from now on. I hope they do and set an example for other intances that might arise in not only Parker High but anywhere outside of the community.

Evolving IS adapting, I don't see much of a difference between the two. Besides, evolution does not state the cause of the universe, only how life evolved afterwards.

I believe you are mistaken jtvbr7. Students praying in school, talking about God in school and giving speeches about religion are perfectly fine. Teachers doing any of these are not.
Although I agree that this could have been avoided if the teacher had approved all topics beforehand.

Were the topics of these speeches introduced to the teacher before hand and "approved". When I used to go to high school I often remember having to confirm the subject of my speech with my teacher. If the teacher confirmed this speech then were the students warned prior to each speech to what the topic was. Would this speech presented by danneskjold be considered a religious speech? In my opinion I feel that it was a religious speech. Religion in high school?… Since when was this ever allowed?

fldpan, I hope you realize that there are MANY Christians that know evolution is a fact.
As for the apes turning into men here is an explanation: "Humans and other apes are descended from a common ancestor whose population split to become two (and more) lineages. The question is rather like asking, 'If many Americans and Australians are descended from Europeans, why are there still Europeans around?'" (from http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC...)

Truthfully (and this has little to do with this article) I'm appalled by how people act around Christmas.

Especially appalling are the people who get uptight about people not saying "Merry Christmas." Has it ever crossed thier mind that the person saying "Happy Holidays" is not a Christian? Maybe they don't celebrate Christmas or believe in the Christian god. What I'm trying to say is that no one has the right to get mad just because someone doesn't share their religious views. I feel uncomfortable saying Marry Christmas because I don't want to offend anybody that isn't a Christian. In fact, I have no problem saying Merry Christmas even though I'm an atheist.

I'd also like to mention something about a comment made by vonesh25 who said, "I as a parent am upset that there are no longer christmas plays or sings in the elementary school, because it may upset some parents or childern.I'm not saying there is anything wrong with having your own religious beliefs, but this is America and it's not fair to the majority of the people not being able to enjoy such activities."

I think it is totally wrong to make children have to sing Christmas songs that they don't want to. It is equally wrong to tell them to go sit in the corner while the rest of the students are singing just because they don't share their beliefs. Making children either be left out of an activity or sing along with something they don't believe in is, in effect, giving more rights to the Christians because they are the "majority." No group deserves more rights than any other group just because their beliefs are in the majority. Period.

I also have to add that anyone who says that America has "freedom of but not freedom from" religion are no better than any other person who persecutes someone for their beliefs.

This turned out to be a loooong comment, but I felt that these points should be addressed.

I think there is something in the Bible about forgiveness. Or would it not apply because that part he tore out.

thats a good point. so that means there must have been some mends made to give minors some say. i don't, good research point.

ha ha yea thry may - but how come the attorney online thing keeps referring to it? Shouldn't he know?

no freedom of speech, technically speaking, that sucks. =( haha. don't release that to the press kids would go insane.

this is true. we did quite stray from the topic. haha.

So I guess technically children do not have the right to freedom of speech.

Dead skunk on a stick should be fairly easy to assemble, but even with no personal experience, I would advise against it. Please excuse me for writing about something that has nothing to do with the story, but maybe we should all take a deep breath and relax. As offensive as the destruction of a book is to me, we can all rest assured that the Bible will live on in it's millions of copies including one that was owned by my grandmother and contains a treasury (to me) of family history amongst it's well worn pages. The destruction of a million copies would not diminish it's worth.

Whats simon talking about? We were just wondering how kids at the school are handling it.

I say good for this kid who is opinionated enough to make a statement and not care what others think. I only hope that my children grow up to be outspoken in matters that they feel strongly about. As he says his intentions were not to offend anyone or persuade anyone to sway his way. And I feel his mother is doing a fine job by allowing him to express himself as long as he is not doing physical damage to himself or others and for supporting her child. The school is probably just upset that someone had a bible in the school period. God forbid someone speak religion in a public school whether it be bad or good.

...interesting how a teacher has never mentioned this fact ever in any of my history classes over the years...

May I interject that the constitution protects the rights of adults not children. The United States has not signed the Convention for Children's Rights that was put out by the United Nations.

..yea.. *sigh*

"Now would some more bafoons". ...and there again goes your arguement out the window. I was reading your information and as soon as you resorted to name calling you showed that you did not have what it took to reinforce your point. Name calling does not inform to enlighten, it simply is an outburst to try to lash back at someone

actually its because of a book he read.. but ok.

I personally couldn't care less what this kid did in a high school classroom, especially since he only got a B on the report.
I think the only reason he's so quick to condemn the Bible, a book which I am Positive he has never fully read, is that his parents are Christians and he's at the age now where he wants to find fault with everything they stand for. He won't admit it now, mostly because he hasn't matured enough to admit that they might be right, but he will.
His folks have to remember an old Proverb from that outdated book that says "Train a child in the way he should go, so when he's older he won't depart from it."
Holy crap... I just read my post....I'm only 31 and I sound like a responsible parent preaching to my own kid! To my Dad: When you thought I wasn't listening to you...I was. Thanks for annoying me so much when I was 17!

anyways. the students that made those shirts did so out of their own free will. I was not apart of it what-so-ever. I had a feeling Carlson would not approve.

More of an example of how extreme people are taking this.

Good thing you and your little t-shirt wearing friends can have a chat about someone else on here. Good coping mechanism--take the heat off your bad self and get people to focus someone else. Again, real mature!

heard online school? i don't know.

That does seem a little strange, Will they ever go back to school after this.

he is a good kid if you don't know him then you shouldn't make the rude comment about him. the kid is always welcome in my house. i'm glad that he stood up for what he belives in. and nobody should be making any coments about how his mother is raising him, because i know him really good and he is a very respectable kid and i personally know him and i think that she has done a wonderful job raising him. and this has nothing to do with christmas.

*hour.

I find it ridiculous I know the student well. But didn't think they would do that. I believe that was a bit over the top and extreme. The administration however did rearrange danneskjold's schedule so he is out of our first our class.

So what do you think about the family who pulled there children out of school because of it?

haha. nice. I am a student at Parker and actually heard the speach.

Oh yea, I'm not a student at Parker. I just heard what happen through the grape vine, and thought it was brave.

I'm with you danneskjold a 100%, people on this blog need to stop thinking their way is the right way. So don't pay any attention to their insults or even there opinions, or what I think for that fact. You did what you wanted to do to get your point across, and I commend you on your speech.

the teacher? nothing. nothing against what-so-ever. danneskjold rattled it off so fast i think she was just as shocked as us students. but yes, i don't know. she didn't say anything at all, just 'next' for the next student to go, which as you can imagine was quite awkward for her.

sorry danneskjold guess you didn't get the memo about how we have/had some very religious people in the class including the teacher. one student and their parents went as far as removing them from the school altogether, which i find underly ridiculous and childish.

My question is, what was the teacher doing?? Did the teacher feel that this was appropriate behavior for this project? It seems as the reigning adult in the room, had this teacher stepped in when the derogatory verbiage began, perhaps it would have helped both sides to remain calm and maybe even wound up in a fruitful discussion of first amendment rights. Or so it could have with proper leadership. But from what I understand (a friend of my child was in that class) the teacher did absolutely nothing. Several students took the speechgiver’s rants quite personal and were shaken up. I really believe it was not because of his tearing up the Bible, but because of his attack and threats on the other students. From what I have been told, and as you can imagine, this did not stop at the classroom door. There have been additional threats and I believe that also came into play when the suspension was doled out.

fldpan.

you can not call Darwin's theories 'insane'. there is just as much belief of the science approach as there is the belief of a higher being. the choice is yours, but to denounce such a theory is discriminatory.

The kid did the speech for a class assingment. It was a speech that got him a B grade. He did the speech for his English class, not to get attention. And for everyone who believes in God, Don't you think his greatest creation was Free Will. People have a choice on what they do and don't want to believe in. He is making a choice not to wast his time believing in something that may not be real.

Because the college that I attended had religious affiliations, I was required to take two religion classes in order to attain my degree. One of those was a course called Biblical Stories. The premise of this course was to break down some of the more popular stories from the Bible in order to separate fact from fiction. The book that was used for this class was called "The Jerusalem Bible ". This class was informative and enlightening and was taught by a respected professor of religion. It is not the pages of the Bible that make it significant, but the belief and faith of the words on the pages. Without the pages the belief would still be there.

If you read the above Gazette article you will find that he was in trouble for his words, not his action of tearing up the bible.

i dont understand what the problem is, is it that he tore up the bible? or that he disrupted the class? he tore up the bible as part of a speech, he as an american has a right to free speech and freedom of religion, if the school suspended him for tearing up the bible then they are taking away his civil rights, we can no longer have prayer in school, but this child cannot tear up a bible that he does not agree with or believe in, was HE was being disruptive by tearing up the bible? Im sure he wasnt, what is disruptive about that? the sound of paper tearing or is it the idea that he was tearing apart THE BIBLE?, I think the school should really look at the reason's why they are suspending students, would everybody be as upset if he would have been tearing up mein kampf? i doubt it, no it is because it was the bible, i believe in god, he has a right to believe or not believe in whatever he wants!! people need to quit talking about him like he was leading his fellow classmates to join a cult!!!!! get over it people!!

If Parker deems his behavior as inappropriate, they have the ability to suspend him. This is not a free speech issue, the issue is what is defined as acceptable behaviour.

I applaude "danneskljold" for reading Ayn Rand-great choice, also read the Fountainhead.

You crossed the line when you expressed your disapproval for others believing in the teaching of the bible. You're free to believe whatever you want but you do not have the forum or freedom to "call[ed] the class a bunch of superstitious, simple-minded(I mean narrow-minded) ignoramuses". You do not have the authority nor are you awarded class time to cajole or ridicule those with whom you disagree. Afterschool, in the hallway, have at it. You can belive the moon is made of cheese and attempt to convince others of your beliefs-on your time. Not on school time.

The tearing of pages from the bible was done for dramatic effect. This act, in and of itself proves nothing and offers nothing to your position. But it worked. Your received the attention you craved and now you are suspended for your actions. This is the consequence of your behaviour-not your words.

This student should have been arrested on 2 counts. First, for disorderly conduct and secondly for a hate crime because of the derogatory he made towards a group of people!

And who said he was suspended? Only the mother and that is purely her word against the schools. She even admits in the article that he couldn't return until the psych eval, so what if he had gotten it the same day? Then he would have been able to come back.

It seems, as at school, this has created quite a stir. I will defend (danneskjold) with the fact that he did meet his requirements on his speech and received a 20/25. He did, although people do not like it, have the right to rip the bible. I however do not defend his words. Yes, some students did find them quite offensive. But also take this into account. On a normal day a student is probably insulted in some way or another at least once a day. Sure, some find it a joke; however, others do not. But the reason that it has caused such a stir is because this was about religion. If he would have ripped anything else, for the most part, people would not have been offended. But you also have to know (danneskjold). He has had his own creative views and ways to present things all year long. Personally I am was/am more offended by the remarks/actions of other students/community members. (danneskjold) had a right to rip the bible, because he related it to his presentation. The false facts out there that he is unstable and/or is a threat is outright false. But again, I do not condone his words.

*student witness to the presentation.

To the person that made the speech as you so proudly announced, if you are so truly so proud of yourself why don't you use your real name. Personally, a mature, stable person would not do what you did in the first place. People with morals and manners do not use the word vagina like its any other word. Kids were afraid of you and that IS a fact. I don't think other students should have to listen to your mental tyrade. Keep on hiding behind your username.

"just supports my argument"
Unfortunately, your purpose was to incite, not to inform. As most of the people can see, name calling does nothing to support an arguement...it is only filler when the person has run out of reason to support their issue.

Expecting for something to happen when you tore the page(s) and then claiming that it is false because nothing happened is akin to driving past a police officer faster than the posted speed and claiming there are no speed limits because he did not ticket me.

Shorve: You are correct, they do need to get values straight. Just like the rest of the government, you tell them you have been threatened, stalked or whatever and they say they can't do anything about it until something happens and often by then it is too late...

Then maybe you should have done it in a calm, polite manner!

This is really very sad and DON'T misunderstand that I have a problem with any one tearing up books of any kind....but I think a suspension is VERY strange,,,, When we ask Parker and the school distract to help with a student threatening to put my grandchild in a coma that she would NEVER come out of and NO ONE took this seriously. And this was NOT the 1st complaint.. I think Tom Evert and the Parker school should get their values straight. A life or tearing up a book…Maybe this student doesn’t play sports.

What would you do if this happened in a public place like the mall? Some people would probably want to beat him for the name calling, some people would just walk away. Some parents would probably remove their kids from the situation, some might think oh my gosh he is getting pretty upset and maybe he has a weapon and be scared after recent events, some would call 911 or the police. I bet he would be arrested for disorderly conduct at the least...

frmrjvlres: People are claming that this is a way on Xtianity because he is simply being suspended when they , as Bible lovers, would like to see his head on a stick. You know, because if this were Sudan or Saudi Arabia and he did that to a Kuran, that is what would happen to him.
Never mind that Muslims in many countries hold protests in which they burn Bibles, urinate on them, spit on crucifixes, etc, whilst burning the American flag. With the homeland security being what it is, I highly doubt a group of Muslims would make it to Parker unnoticed.
If a girl had torn the Kuran in a protest on women's treatment in Islam, she night be seen as making a good point, no?
I see that as the REAL war on Christianity, not some misguided rebel ripping a book in a government school.
tjncj- How is the mother being poor in her upbringing? She states that she is Christian and her son was raised Christian- perhaps she has handed the matter over to God like a good submissive woman and trusts His Wisdom will prevail over his son and win his heart. Are you going to say her devout faith is poor parenting?

There have been way more shotings in schools other than Columbine. This year alone there have been at least 5 that I read about or heard about in the news. As a parent I worry about my kids safety.

No I am not just trying to make the point that some kids could feel threatened by his actions and they deserve to feel safe in their school.

NCpanfan:

You are not trying to equate the antics of this Parker kid to the killers in Columbine Colorado are you?

With all the recent shootings and killings in schools I know I would feel threatened if I were a kid in that class and all of a sudden a simple speech gets way out of hand and there is vulgar words and name calling and he is clearly agitated. You never know anymore what some people will do when they reach that point. I worry every day that something like that could happen at my kids school. He needed to be suspended.

I don't understand how this could be considered part of a "war on Christianity." He ripped a few pages out of the Bible and he was suspended from school. I'd bet it only got to suspension because it was the Bible. If he'd ripped up a book by Twain and said I shouldn't be forced to read irreverent blasphemy he may have gotten detention for destruction of property but I doubt he'd have been suspended.

And I agree with evillehwife that to really make the point he should have torn up more sacred texts, maybe even burned them for a nice twist. But, to sort of turn the argument some Christians make at this time of year on its head, Christians are the majority in this country and if he's ever felt oppressed by religion odds are it was Christianity. The Bible would be the obvious place to start.

The free-speech protections guaranteed him under the Constitution as a citizen are much broader than those he enjoys as a student, which are clearly not absolute. If he is punished for his conduct, so be it-in my opinion he deserved his punishment.

If his 1st amendment rights really are being violated, I am sure that some attorney seeking publicity will be happy to file a law suit against the school district of Janesville.

Note that he is not in trouble at home and is being defended by his mother. His upbringing is the largest reason he acted out this way. Many children have inadequate parenting (not taught respect, anger management, etc)and survive it but some cannot cope and will travel down a similar path. Lets hope he can get his issues worked out before we read about him again.

If my kids ever did something disrespectful like that not only would they be in trouble at school, they would be in trouble at home also.

Chafer: He got suspended for abusing his free speech. If he had destroyed a class book and made the verbal assault the result would have been the same. He has the right to destroy his own property but not to have a tirade in the class and insult others.

I found no specific policy only one that assures them to free speech as long as not abused which brings us back to the topic, Simon. :o) He had the right to express his views but not verbally abuse the other people in the room. I did e-mail the board to make sure and if there is no policy then I will be telling my kids to go ahead and say Merry Christmas to their teachers.

well what do we expect we live in a country that is FREE, we teach our children about there rights, the constitution, and every other freedom we are so lucky to have, and now because this young man ripped up a bible in class, he got suspened, what a bunch of crap!! agree or not!!!

Ha! Sorry Simon it is my ADHD kicking in.

ncpanfan- I am guessing that it is just your individual school or more likely a teacher, like I said before my children attend a public Janesville elementary and they have quite a large christmas tree in the lobby.

No wonder teachers have such a hard time trying to teach if some of you are parents of school-age kids. Stay on topic!

Thanks for the info. I will check it out but I do know they have no trees or decorations up at all and were told not to say the word. Not sure if it was a teacher or administration.

I think he should have ripped the pages out for his cause, but stopped at using the A word. Then he would have made his point without getting into trouble.
I can't see how being harmful to one's private property can be illegal or disruptive. Of course, to make a more impressive point, he should have ddestroyed a deity or scripture of another major religion as well- to cover his bases and be more complete in his opposition to religion and not just Xtianity. This article says he was agaisnt religion, but he seems to be focusing on Xtianity specifically.

Apology accepted. I guess I am just saying in order to be fair to everyone they should either refrain from any mention of any celebration or like I said have a program so that everyone can learn all the different celebrations so no one feels left out. I personally would like to attend something like that because it would be nice to learn about the other celebrations. I was brought up down south in a baptist religion and believe me they never tell you about any other celebrations. I am non-denominational now and I have jewish friends, catholic friends and even friends who are atheiests and we all get along well. We have discussed our religions but never argued and we accept each other as we are and no one takes offense at the other's different views. If only everyone could do that!

ncpanfan asks:Why not have programs that show each of the different faiths that have celebrations at this time of year?

To get that type of education, you either have to be in a diverse urban area (Madison) or a private progressive school. (Rock Prairie Montessori in Janesville does a comprehensive holiday unit as part of social studies- but it's like $8000 a year for K-5)

ncpanfan- Is the No Merry Christmas rule district policy? What you may have heard may be different from what is in black and white. What I am trying to say is, there could be a teacher/administrator with an agenda that TOLD the children this, but the school policy manual may not have any reference to it. Evansville's district policy is available on the district webpage, for instance. I encourage you to check it out and see where you can get you eyes on a copy of your district policy.
If it's not offical policy, you can tell the teacher Merry Christmas all you want.

My children attend a Janesville elementry school and I have not noticed any of the Christmas ban. They have a christmas tree in the lobby and my kindergartener comes home every day telling me Merry Christmas in a different language. He has also brought home projects such as a Menorah and they have learned about Kwanza. I think people make everything out to be much more than it really is. Happy Holidays!

I apologize. Whoever made that rule is overstepping their boundaries. If true, it should apply to all religions and probably does.
But I'm sure they didn't get on the intercom and say 'Happy Kwanza'. It was probably an informational piece. The reason they don't do the same for Christmas is because everyone already knows. It's to everyone's benefit to learn about other cultures.

Why not have programs that show each of the different faiths that have celebrations at this time of year?

And by the way I didn't say they were forbidden to say it to their friends, I said they are forbidden to say it at school. School policy resticts the use of that word.

Sorry but yes they were told not to say Merry Christmas. It remains to be seen what would happen if they say it. I am sure they tell their friends taht when they are at a place where they feel safe to do so but all it takes is one person complaining and they are in trouble and taken to the office for offending someone.
I didn't say we are the only ones being told no, there are alot of people who want to express their beliefs but how fair is it for the school to say you can't say Christmas only holidays but yet turn around and talk about Kwanza, a different celebration???

"My kids are forbidden to say Merry Christmas at school"

I'm sorry but I don't believe you. Nobody is forbidden to say 'Merry Christmas' to their friend. Maybe you are referring to displays and school-sponsored materials that say 'Happy Holidays', which actually are fair to everyone.

As far as being told 'no', did you ever think that Christians are the only ones asking for these privileges?

This is only one side of this story. Remember, a good reporter listens to and reports both sides. Perhaps talking to some kids that were in that class are in order--the one's that had to listen to his rant and vulgarity--the kids that didn't want to be exposed to his warped views.

As a christian I am not asking for pity but how about fairness? My kids are forbidden to say Merry Christmas at school to anyone but administration can make their daily announcements and talk about Kwanza??? Everyone has the right to choose their own religion and somehow it seems as if it always the christians who are being told no...

Parker High School is a JOKE! I attended High School, they do not like it when students stand up for what they believe in. I know that and I just feel sorry for the kid and his parents.

ski1357, this is all part of being the majority group in a population. For every 'inconvenience' you experience, there are three or four benefits that minority groups don't have. No one is going to pity Christians in America no matter how many times this happens.

I recall watching Sinead OConnor on Saturday Night Live. She finished her singing and then took a picutre of the pope and tore it. Freedom of speech? I guess. Correct venue? It sure did get attention. This student expressed his freedom of speech. Get attention? Let see, an article in the paper, this blog, ...

You all are correct. If this student had done this to a Koran it would have made national news and the Muslims would be making sure this student was expelled. This is just another example of the war on Christianity in the country. Everyone thinks that it is just "freedom of speech" to do anything they want or say anything they want against anything Christian. Just like the war on Christmas that we continue to see more of this time of year. "Oh my, we can't say Merry Christmas!!!"" Bullpucky, thats what this holiday is!!! I'm so tired of it I could puke.

I assume the bible he damaged was one he owned and brought with him. Damaging another persons book, regardless of the title, would be a crime.

He was trying to make a point in a manner inappropriate for a school setting but I have to agree with Officer Wasemiller, It wasn't a law violation.

garyprimer, do you know where I can get a skunk-on-a-stick? I have some places I'd like to go!

(no offense, I just laughed at the visualization).

Former res.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofasci...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXFYH5ckD...

Are you unfamiliar with the term?

Edit my last comment, I mean first amendment. Duh.

The second amendment guarantees freedom of religion and freedom from religion. This slogan "freedom of not freedom from" doesn't do justice to its complexity. I think it's a shame how nervous religious and areligious expression in a public setting makes us these days. Reactionaries on both sides of the issues seem to scare public school administrators into irrational behavior.

TCB - What is an islamofascist?

This raises lots of questions when it comes to religion within the schools.. I as a parent am upset that there are no longer christmas plays or sings in the elementary school, because it may upset some parents or childern.I'm not saying there is anything wrong with having your own religious beliefs, but this is America and it's not fair to the majority of the people not being able to enjoy such activities. My thought is if you don't want your child to participate in such things then thats fine, don't have them but dont take it away from others.

To stand and rip pages from a bible is one thing. To name call and make negative statements about others who believe in the bible is another.
He was simply acting out for attention and was not capable to make his point verbally without attacking others verbally.
The verbal attack was inciting, abusive, and disruptive and he should be removed because of the disruption.

This child is screaming for help. If no one paid any attention to him after he tore out the pages , what would his next step have been ? .. Get him the help he needs now and stop ignoring the problem !

Imagine the outrage had he torn up pages from the holy Quran. Islmaofascists would be beating a path to Parker's front door seeking this kid.

The kid has a right to believe what he wants, give a speech on it and even tear up the bible. But he went too far by calling probably 90% of his classmates 'idiots'. I think a suspension was too much, but he definitely should have been told to sit down and shut up.

I have to say that I agree with all three of your comments. I think the main thing to be concerned about here is the blatent disrespect. Regardless of religous affiliation, I think we all recognize the bible as a very powerful and very meaningful object to a lot of people, just as we recognize the same attributes in the star of David, or the Koran. While free speech is a necessity, just what point was this student trying to prove? That he can rip up a bible? That in his limited time here on earth, he has acquired the knowledge necessary to accurately deem others beliefs unworthy? I agree with the suspension whole heartedly--not because of what he tore up, but because of his blatently ignorant gesture of intolerance--something he needs to learn to be quite possibly the most dangerous aspect of any society.

I wonder what the school district would have reccomended if it were to Koran, or the Writings of MLK. Either way it was disruptive and unexcusable. The parent of this child should be utterly ashamed. The comments border on hate crime and should be look at as such, maybe he should be expelled if this is not the first time.

Our country was built on freedom from religuius opression, not freedom from religion. Some one needs to set this kid straight, his mother sure doesn't want to (by what the article says)

I know that the Supreme Court disagrees with me, but the supreme court of common sense advises me that actions are not speech and should not be protected under the first ammendment. If burning a flag improperly in public and tearing up a bible are protected, then so is the speaking and writing of any word in any place and running up and down the street with a dead squirrel on a stick.

So much comes to mind that it's hard to know where to begin. If I were this youngster's parent I would be upset about two things, first that he thinks he can insult anyone, and that the schools have not taught him how to make an argument. Calling people names who disagree doesn't change anyone's mind. Ripping paper, or burning it for that matter, proves nothing at all. Makes me wonder if, the first time he tried ripping the bible, did he expected to be stuck by a lightning bolt? Yes, bible abuse is free speech, but, insults and obscenities are not.
Those who support him with clever slogans need to learn that those who mind do matter, and those who think sometimes delude themselves.
Finally, you would think that a school could act against this kind of offensive activity without consulting a lawyer.