The question the new city coucil will have to deal with is did Screamin MeeMee's violate the city code or not. And that code is 5.82 Adult Entertainment Establishments Licesing-Regulations. And also read State Statute 944.30 this states how the staute explains what prostitution is an is a Class A Misdemeanor.

A lap dance is illegal? Maybe they should arrest women taking tips for boob shots in an establishment that sells alcohol? Maybe the police should raid bachelor and bachlorette parties?

As I said before, on another article, there is more money in legalized prostitution than illegal for taxes.

Someone's willing to pay for something, someone's offering a service and no one is getting hurt. Sometimes I think just being a lawyer is more criminal.

There may be more bodily contact at a dance club on the dance floor than during a lap dance.

The law should be out there catching the real criminals. How about the bars and taverns that keep serving customers that are totally inebriated? This service does have the potential to harm MANY.

unknown: PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE learn how to spell. You put up so many posts a person has no choice but to read them and believe me it is hard to read what you write. Mind numbing even.

Now the criminal complaint file by the district atrones was base on city code 5.82.090 section D an section i of the city code as well as 5.82.140 of the city code I would sugest this right now the city has 21 days untill the city has to renew Screamin MeeMee's License.That the city council concider options on the License issue an there are 2. 1 The chief of police has sugusted pulling Screamin MeeMee's license which i dont thing would be fair to the owner the 2nd option is to have the owners an managers of Screamin MeeMee's at a city councin meeting an re word the license in a way that clearly dictates what Screamin Mee's is allowed to do an theses ordeneces have been in place sense shockwave opened for business.An the city dose need to make clear the concequences if Screamin Mee's violates the city code in the future.

to anyone whom I have inadvertently hurt, I sincerely apologize.

going forward, I will attempt to clearly state that I am in no way referring to this group of women, nor any particular woman (as that would be morally and ethically WRONG) as being a victim of assault (or of anything). I am attempting to voice my opinion that there is the possibility that there may be issues that the average citizen may not consider in their analysis of the situation and in response to the article. I certainly hope that before people judge someone else's behavior, they will look (long and hard) at their own behavior.

With that, I wish you a good day.

ms...sassy, our exchange here began with the idea of responsibilty. The women cannot use "society" etc. as an excuse. Your statistic bears this out.

The added damage to the parents comes from pathologizing every aspect of human behavior.

Your orignal claim that the behavior of the women came from "society" and sexual abuse, usually at the hands of parents, not only hurt the parents directly, but indirectly by putting certain ideas about the parents into the heads of relatives, friends, and neighbors.

I understand the seriousness of all kinds of abuse, but the abuse excuse has, itself, damaged the American mentality.

The idea that prostitution is okay and should be legal, should come with answers to these questions:

What neighborhood in what city or town would tolerate a brothel?

What farmer would want to have a brothel any where near his or her property?

Why wouldn't any of these people want a brothel in their area?

Is lap dancing prostitution? We better get an experts professional opinion.....slick and smooth Willy Clinton.

Now i have a copy of the Aplication of Screamin MeeMee's Aplication an on the aplication this is what it say is a descripition of servicies to be provided.LIVE NUDE ENTERTAINMENT AND ADULT BOOK AND NOVELTY SALES ON PREMISES.ADULT USE DEFINED BY THE CITY CODE.And this is also how it is worded on the renewal aplication whis has yet to be aproved byy the city of Janesville.An the city has 21 days from when the applicaion was recieved weather or to renew Screamin MeeMee's License.What is need is tronger wording of what Screamin MeeMee's will be allowed to do but this is how there aplication reads.

I think the "goods" were damaged in shipment.

Twerp- Speaking as someone who grew up in Las Vegas it prostitution is only legal in northern Nevada. Anyone who told you otherwise is lying.

As for this article no a lap dance isn't prostitution. Are the cops really this bored? Yeah solicitation does happen in strip joints all over the place but not ever girl on stage or at your table is there to do anything more than shake her goods and make some cash.

Guess what? If you're not having "simulated sex" during a lap dance, you are getting ripped off! "Dancers" unbuttoning pants, men fondling naked breasts, & offers for paid oral sex there is one thing, but SURPRISE!!!!...a LAP DANCE is about getting grinded against to....well, you know. If that is prostitution because there is money involved, then go to every crappy downtown bar where a messed up guy is drunk-driving a messed up chick somewhere for ACTUAL sex after vertical lap dances & money (in the form of buying drinks) was occuring all night and start making some arrests. Geez!

Deputies say at other places they observe “typical dance routines and all the bartenders are licensed. … We have no cause to investigate based on our regular activities.” Get real people. These other places serve beer and the "typical dance routines" they observe are what they look forward to being part of during their next friend's bacholer party. I love how the "investigators" play dumb on this stuff. They know how naive the locals who are complaining about this are. Now go treat yourselfs to a beer & a lapdance at a real Gentleman's Club!

gazettefan,
I see your point. I just get nervous when our law enforcement arrests first and then asks questions later and then uses expressions like “No case is black and white”. I concede that my Stalin point was way off.

I always thought it was strange that you can give sex away but cannot receive anything of value for it?
Maybe they should leagalize it like smoe places (Las Vegas comes to mind) and just make sure the state gets the sales tax on it, and how about permit/licencing fees too.
Just a thought.

mabuse, so you're saying that customers who go to Screamin' Meemies are sexually attracted to the dancers and not there because they can get a strange woman to rub her breasts in their faces for a few bucks?

self-control is also a God-given "natural" thing. Some people choose to exercise it, others don't.

Sexual attraction is a God-given, natural thing. The real perverts are those prudes who self righteously criminalize it. And the mileage and power they get out of the word "abused"!

Simulated sex is prostitution? Next, the police will only have to perform simulated police work (Madison). I started working on a farm when I was twelve. The first day of work my friend Jay saved my life when I almost fell off the tractor wheel fender while on the Hwy. In fact, farming is the most dangerous job for children and yet I have never heard of the police raiding a farm. Evidently my parents could pimp me out to the farmer for labor but adult women can't sell their personal services. Newspapers hire children as contract employees to deliver newspapers but generally don't report it if one goes missing or is killed by a car. This is just another example of the prudes of world imposing their self-righteousness. Making prostitution illegal only makes more crime not less - remember prohibition.

again, I'm not saying the women arrested WERE victims of sexual assault. I AM saying that it is not just the WOMEN, but SOCIETY IN GENERAL that has a problem with sex. You are right, gazettefan, the women involved have family, friends, neighbors and co-workers who may have been affected by the arrests. There are more people involved, obviously, than JUST THE WOMEN (like the club owners, the patrons and the guys who paid for a lap dance).

This all started on the other blog. I reacted to the excuses that were made on behalf of women arrested for prostitution: They are largely the victims of sexual assault, usually at the hands of parents.

We saw more proof that the therapeutic industry and its proponents are doing their share to corrode the mentality of the American mind.

A form of this corrosive thinking has been obvious on this blog.

It appears that 97.36 percent of women arrested for prostitution were NOT victims of sexual assault.

As if the 16 parents of the 8 women arrested for prostitution didn't have enough to deal with, certain posts on this blog have damaged the reputations of some or all of those 16 people.

We should think about the impression this blog has made on their relatives, friends, and neighbors.

The complaint filled by the district Atorney is for Prostitution not for sexual assult an that is also what is printed in this article.An the issue faceing the city is weather or not to pull Screamin MeeMee's License an shut the place down based on the criminal complaint.And tthe only soultion is to shut down Screamin MeeMee's an pull the License

you can make the numbers say whatever you want them to say. what my point is is that as long as men objectify and abuse women, the problems that are after effects, such as prostitution, will increase as well. you can look at the statistics and you can come to your own conclusions. I will insert a few local sources of information from Wisconsin Coalition Against Sexual Assault (WCASA) http://www.wcasa.org/docs/Sexual%20Assau...
and Sexual Assault Recovery Program of Rock and Counties http://www.sarpwi.com/info.html for people who want to either find out more about the correlation between sexual assault and promiscuity and/or prostitution or for assistance on locating services. I am not surprised that I am continually met with disagreement regarding the prevalence of the problem in society. I have an obligation to my social conscience to voice my opinions, concerns and knowledge on the subject.

This has nothing to do with sexual assult or abuse or any other thing that its being called. Its the selling of flesh or sex for money plain an simple this debate has been going on in this town for years just hasnt been publisized till now.Apropreite sex is when 2 adults of age consent to haveing sex in private or they are married.Prostitution is the selling of sex for money thats its definition an it is imoral an wrong.But it dose continue.And no one seems to have a soultion for this problem an it continues.an when the city gave Screamin MeeMee's its license what did the city think would happen.You get a club like that an it will happen eventualy an thats why we have this situation.An it is up to the city now if Screamin MeeMee's gets its license pulled or not.An it dose seem to apear that the owners have done nothing sense the last time they were busted to put a end to the problem.So the choice is clear shut down Screamin MeeMee's an pull the license is the only soulution to this problem that makes any sense

ms....sassy, according to your post:

97.36 percent of the women arrested for prostitution were NOT victims of sexual assualt.

ms....sassy, according to you post:

97.36 percent of the women arrested for prostitution were not victims of sexual assualt.

I've been trying to find out how likely it is that a victim of child sexual abuse ends up as a prostitute later (now, arrested for prostitution, since there are stats on that).

But now you throw in sexual assault up to the age of 21.

You also add that of the six million people who live in Wisconsin, one million of them are woman who are victims of sexual assault.

I'm not going to argue with this. I've always thought that whatever the numbers, they'd be significant. I'll just leave these numbers as you state them, and get to an issue in my next post.

gazettefan, statistically, 2.64 of the women arrested would have been sexual assaulted. That is based on the estimate that statewide 1 in 3 women are victims of sexual assault, not necessarily as children, but with the majority occurring before the age of 21.

An estimated 191,670 assaults were reported in the United States in 2005. (2005 National Crime
Victimization Survey, ). U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Statistics. December 2006.)

I understand that you have your doubts that this is the case, and I don't know any of the women personally to state that, indeed any of them have been assaulted sexually or physically. In my experience, however, it is not uncommon for a woman who was assaulted as a girl to "take her panties off for money, since they have already been taken off for free" countless times by someone else.

Before the stampeed rushes in to correct my use of double possessives in my last post, Mao and Stalin had two separate sets of victims. Double possessives are correct in that case.

deltafox, of the three: Mao, Hitler, and Stalin, Stalin killed more people.

Hitler is more well known for slaughtering people because of how many he slaughtered in a short period of time. Mao is number two on the list. Stalin's and Mao's victims were more strewn out over a longer period of time.
--
Maybe someone at the club knew something illegal was going on and reported it. Seems like a reasonable thing to do and not a matter of a slippery slope.

I think the "slippery slope" idea has been over-applied and has hit the bottom of its own slippery slope.

ms...sassy, keeping the issue to prostitution for the moment, I pasted a statement from near the end of one of your posts:
------
"....victims of child sexual abuse are 27.7 times more likely to be arrested for prostitution as adults than non-victims."
-----
Whether the eight woman in the Gazette story are guilty of prostitution, they fit the description in the quote above of having been ARRESTED FOR PROSTITUTION.

A problem comes from the "27.7 times" figure. That figure would have to be based on a figure that tells us what percentage of child abuse victims later become prostitutes, or at least arrested for prostitution later. (This percentage would be same for reported victims and unreported victims.) We need to know what that percentage is.

If you don't know or can't find out what that percentage is: Can you tell me (based on your experience, knowledge, and research) how many of the eight women in the story are victims of child abuse?

The question seems to be what defines prostitution.The only answer i can thik of is when a wome gets money for sex is the only answer i can think of.The problem is though is there are more rules in male female relationships an more rules for when sex is apropiate.You also run into the problem of women want to have the same rights as men do as well to.An there gonna want there say as well to.I do belive theat it is not leagal to sell sex for money in public or in private.That what prostitution is.The only time sex is apropreate is between to adult couples when it is concentual between man an women.How ever though it depends also what a person belives to be apropiate.

gazettefan,
I just feel that sometimes the police tend to react too harshly on word-of-mouth cases that involve someone who has an agenda. I paralleled Stalin, again in sarcasm (and I am seeing my own trend here, will try harder not to be so sarcastic) with the way that in the Stalin led years in the USSR, people had to fear what their neighbor would say, and all too often people were sent to prison based on the lies of their neighbor.

gazettefan, those stats are very difficult to locate because abuse cases span many different types, many cases go unreported and possibly an even greater number of cases that are reported are not investigated. However, I found these stats:

Children who are abused or neglected are more likely to become criminal offenders as adults. A National Institute of Justice study found "that childhood abuse increased the odds of future delinquency and adult criminality overall by 40 percent" (Widom, 1992). Child sexual abuse victims are also at risk of becoming ensnared in this cycle of violence. One expert estimates that forty percent of sexual abusers were sexually abused as children (Vanderbilt, 1992). In addition, victims of child sexual abuse are 27.7 times more likely to be arrested for prostitution as adults than non-victims. (Widom, 1995). Some victims become sexual abusers or prostitutes because they have a difficult time relating to others except on sexual terms.

ms...sasssy, did your post include the percentage of abused children who go on to become prostitutes? I didn't see it.

Of all the children who are abused, what percentage of them become protitutes?

gazettefan, according to the same website I cited earlier, "Scholars in field research have reported that between 60% and 70% of prostituted young women had been previously sexually abused as children (Silbert & Pines, 1982, p.479; Weisberg, 1984, p. 4; James, 1980). Organizations serving formerly prostituted women have reported even higher percentages. Genesis House, in Chicago - 94%; The Mary Magdalene Project, in California - 80%; WHISPER, in Minnesota - 74% (Giobbe, 1990, p.78). Abuse by older male family members - usually fathers, stepfathers, and foster-fathers - is the most common. The average age of the child when sex abuse began was about ten (Weisberg, 1984; Silbert & Pines, 1982; Enablers Project, 1978)."

Yes, I did read your post to quickly, deltafox.

ms...sassy, can you be more clear on what you're claiming.

You do claim that a high percentage of prostitutes were sexually abused children.

But what percentage of sexually abused children go on to become prostitutes?

So why, Sassy, are the police out arresting these "victims", and not setting up stings to catch pedophiles. Which is more important to catch and punish?
Where are the victims of these alleged prostitutes? What a joke!

OK, deltafox, but I find the Stalin reference strange.

gazettefan, I was being sarcastic...

that's MY POINT, gazettefan, for the most part, these women ARE victims. Not all victims of childhood sex abuse become prostitutes, or vice versa; but there is such a strong statistical relation that it is clear that childhood victimization has catastrophic effects, and is a major precursor to becoming a runaway and being prostituted. I'm NOT saying these women have a pimp or were forced, per se, to work at Screamin' MeeMee's...I AM saying that an OVERWHELMING majority of women who don't have a problem stripping, giving lap dances, or selling their bodies are victims, whether you like the term or not, of sexual assault, probably as children. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for you to acknowledge.

"...distinct terms.....", means PRECISE, not "subjective."

ms....sassy, that's nice, if any of the women are reading this, you just encouraged them even moreso to see themselves as victims.

The scenario you describe wouldn't take place with the woman. No one draggged her out of the house for placement in that scenario.

Your post is more harmful advertising for the thereuputic industry.

“No case is black and white,” the sheriff said.
I am glad our local law enforcement uses such distinct terms to define illegal activity. Sounds a little subjective to me...I guess before I was accused of a crime, I would want it BLACK AND WHITE. It sounds like an angry employee with a grudge called in the initial complaint. Didn't Stalin have some sort of rule about narking on your neighbor and you would never seem them again? Makes me wonder if we are heading in that direction. Remember, if your on a witch hunt, you can always find one, and it may just be you someday!

"Close your eyes, say the word "prostitution," and an image of... a woman will materialize. But the central enduring symbol of prostitution should be... two men, exchanging money: the Pimp and the John, the man who has total control of a young woman, and the other man who will pay to have access to her. The girl or woman is by far the least powerful of the three players, really just the commodity being exchanged.

Using the word "prostitute" subtly helps to keep the mental spotlight only on the woman, to hide the two men who exchanged her. The phrase "prostituted woman" is now used by some writers, because it helps to keep in focus who was in control of what happened, and who was not."

from the website: http://www.nomas.org/node/65

People were paying $30 for a lap dance from those nasty skanks at Mee Mee's? Wow, the world has a lot of suckers. You can go down to Chicago to a nice club with hot woman and only pay $20 a dance.

According to the first part the statute, the john or woman makes the OFFER or REQUEST prior to the act, even if the act does not occur, for it to be prostitution.

or

They have sex, then they agree that the prostitute gets something of value -after the sex.

If there's no discussion with a date before or after sex, it's not prostitution. An agreement has to take place to make it prostitution. Without a specific discussion before eating dinner, the dinner is not a thing of value traded for sex -before or after.

(1) Has or offers to have or requests to have non-marital sexual intercourse for anything of value.

I believe the ongoing investigation is the key. No one has been convicted or brought to trial. The courts have ruled there was probable cause to uphold the arrests, but thats as far as it goes for now. I believe its a good idea to let those( on both sides) who may engage in illegal activity that enforcement action will be taken in order to prevent a problem before it becomes a problem.

Technically, even taking a date out to dinner is prostitution............

WOW! Not only do I go to strip clubs I also go to Rotary Gardens and Logli's. You can call me a sleezeball if it makes you feel proud but I'm guessing that most men like naked women. If you think thats sick and twisted then I hope I don't know you.

Gee, I used to let my wife ride on my lap on the tractor....no more! The cops might be disguised as a cow or horse. Oh no....maybe they are using...squirrel cam!!!!!

I think the police chief, on his own initiative or that of someone else, is using the "letter of the law" to charge these women with a crime that most individuals would not equate to prostitution. What is the motivating factor behind these charges?

I feel the "erotic dancing" industry is unsavory and degrading to women, but the charges in this case stink to high heaven.

Women have less access to power and material wealth than men and have historically used sex as the "bartering chip" to gain access. Some of these women are paying with their bodies as a survival strategy. Whether it's prostitution or not...it's a misogynistic industry that exploits women and says more about the patrons than the women working there. I guess, though, places like Screamin M's is a magnet for sleeze balls so I'm less likely to run into them at the Rotary Gardens, Logli's or at the gym. So, in that way, thanks girls, for cleaning up the streets of Janesville.

You know what? I have been to strip clubs and I have had half naked young women rub their breasts on my face and I have enjoyed it a lot! But you know what? I do it just for fun. I don't want or expect anything beyond that. Heck sometimes my wife gives me $25 or $30 and tells me to go. She has even gone with me. We have been married 22 years. If she is ok with it than why should anybody else care?

It sounds like (5) would be more in line with what tobeheard was alluding to rather than (2).
I can see his point. Careful with that jewelry.

Why would anyone equate prostitution with dating and socializing with women?

melstew47-By what you have said makes no sense! First you call the few girls that you know NASTY??? Then you say by calling them names and running them into the ground will not accomplish anything ! Take a look at what you just did ! As far as these girls giving dancers a bad name,what do you mean by that ?Poms,cheer ,hip-hop or line dancers ?? I'm sure their familes are not happy that they are involved with this ,but most familes stick together in times of need !

Once when I got my hair cut, the stylists breasts rubbed against neck. We both liked it and at the end of the cut I paid and tipped her, should I be watching out for the Vice?

tobeheard:
Ah... the proverbial question, if you buy a gal dinner and she takes you home, is that prostitution? The answer.. no. You purchased dinner not sexual gratification as required by sub 2 of the law. Unless there was some up front agreement, that the dinner was in exchange for sexual gratification, no violation exists. When it comes to lap dancing the same theory applies. A lap dance is purchased. Not sexual gratification. If there is incidental or even intentional, say breast to face contact, given the overall circumstances does that rise to "sexual gratification"? Many questions involved and a very close examination of the circumstances required. In my opinion, generally speaking, a "typical lap dance" wouldn't rise to prostitution for a number of reasons.

Some west coast cities, realizing the "tough road to hoe" using the prostitution laws have passed their own ordinances outlawing lap dancing specifically. The dancers may dance for the crowd but not specific individuals. This makes the "murky" a whole lot clearer and easier to enforce.

NO!

No.
Even if it is who cares? Who are these people hurting besides themselves? Everyone these days needs to make everyone else's decisions for them. If you want a stripper to rub her boobs, or whatever on you, that's up to you. Not the lawmakers!

Melstew47, who made you the judge of these people?

The article poses a question: Is a lap dance Prostitution?

I say no.

What does everyone else think?

Please turn yourself in to the JPD.

The initial question seems to be where do you want to draw the line. Here we go back to the Clinton debate. "What constitutes sex?" "What is cheating?" What is prostitution?" I hardly see a lap dance as an act of prostitution, but that is my perception. If thats what that individual wants/needs to do, then the moral thing is on his head. I paid my girlfriends cable bill last week and I think she was trying to pay me back with extra affection. Gosh, I hope my picture wont be in the paper.

Shades of dark-age arguments about numbers of angels on the head of a pin. Why is this society so obsessed with criminalizing human touch and tickle?

the city allows them to be here. what do you expect? these girls that are guilty of this give all dancers a bad name.a few of these girls went to school with my daughter, an they are just plain nasty.i cant imagine the humilation their families feel. i hope they really think about what they allegedly did.but to keep running them into the ground isnt going to accomplish anything, only make them feel even worse about themselves, and not try to better themselves. maybe this will be learnig experience in their lives that they wont want to repeat.

Well said tobeheard! By the way are there tapes on this investigation? If so. are they matter of public record after it is over? If so will be able to see ALL PATRONS INVOLVED?!!!

Ick. I was about to eat my cornflakes when a flashback occured of the faces of the women arrested at Screamin' MeeMee's performing lap dances.
Guess I'll wait for lunch.

For anything of value?? Given these definitions, sounds like we have widespread prostitution as soon as someone seals the deal after a night of dinner and drinks!! Better think twice before picking up the tab :)