Interesting article. http://www.rediff.com/money/2008/dec/17b...

The two largest selling vehicles in the U.S. are still GM trucks, and Ford trucks. Foreign car makers pay what they do to keep their plants from unionizing, that raises everybody`s wages.they want the UAW to agree to parity in wages and benefits. Parity with who? the workers here, or in Japan, where there is national health care, and where the workers get no raises even when there are record profits. Half the Toyotas sold here are imported, don`t think that doesn`t have a big effect on their bottom line. People say the foreign auto makers are not asking for a bailout from Uncle Sam. They don`t have to, they have Uncle Soshi, Uncle Rolf, Uncle Sven, Uncle Kim, and so on. They have already kicked in . I`m all for getting the best bang for my buck, but until we have really fair trade, the U.S. manufacturer is getting screwed by it`s own government. Why are the foreign makers allowed to sell vehicles cheaper here, even after shipping, than at home? While ours are subject to 25 to 30% tariffs in their countries? Until we have national health care we will always be at a competitive disadvantage against countries that do have it, and those that don`t have it all. i know i rambled a little, but if we`re going to compare to get "parity" we have to have all the facts.

All you really need to know is that GM's credit is so bad that they have to pay a 40% rate of interest just to get a loan! So you want the tax payers to give a sweet heart loan that is so risky, that no major investor will even touch unless they are getting a minimal 40% rate of interest on?
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These bailout loans are just a way of giving easy credit to high credit risks. Which is of course exactly what brought about the sub prime melt down, and has lead to all the current financial turmoil!
Some never will learn.

Haven`t touched the stuff for years. You are probably right, but let`s at least get the record straight. If this economy hadn`t tanked, the experts, not me, say labor costs of the Big3 would`ve been lower than Toyota by 2011. Even with a loan, there is a 3to 1 chance that the "car czar" would have GM and Chrysler declare bankruptcy by April. I`m just upset that the workers and the union are becoming the fall guy. If there had been fair trade in the last 40 years, the Big3 would`ve been selling cars in Japan in numbers comparable to the car driving population there. If the companies had followed through on some of their aborted efforts at 'greening" up the industry, where could we be? If the consumer had demanded fuel efficient cars, instead of trucks and SUV`s, where would we be. If consumers would realize how close Ford and GM are to the transplants in quality, where would we be? GM sells more models that get 30 miles to the gallon than any other manufacturer, but nobody wants to hear that. It`s always "those greedy workers". If, or when, they go ,I`m afraid of the consequences to the fragile economy. Some of you will no doubt gloat, and cheer, but it won`t be a good day for the country.

Factcheck--please break the prozac in half before you take them. You're starting to become incoherent. No bailout, bankruptcy, then reorganization. Wall Street scare tactics aside, giving this company $15 billion at this time is completely asinine. GM posted a loss of over $15 billion last quarter. Their "plans" and the union concessions will not stop this bleeding. If they did get their way with this bailout, there is no doubt they would be back before congress(I'd put my bet at mid/late next year) asking for another $15 billion. Seriously, it's sad that an American institution had to die like this, but throwing good money after bad will not change the fact that it is beyond saving......

Of course the uproar in this country would preclude them from doing this(maybe?). USA today came out with a poll today where people said they would "consider' buying a car from a bankrupt company. Of course the same poll said 61% are in favor of the bridge loans to the Big3. UAW auto represented factories, 10% labor cost to build a vehicle. Toyota, only 8%.GM is covering 435,000 people with pension benefits, and health care. If we could just speed up their mortality a little bit, we`d have it made!

How is this for a scenario, Big3 go bust, UAW broken. Japanese auto makers decide to run their plants here just like they do in Japan. They have a union, but it belongs to the company. One third of the workers are called "seasonal" and get less than half pay and no benefits. Even in the years where the company made record profits, no raises were given. Employees regularly work overtime hours without pay (Wal-Mart?). Get hurt, can`t work, you`re gone! Employees will not say anything because of fear of losing their job. And, all manufacturing in Japan is run the same way. Also, they import workers from China, Vietnam as contract workers. They recruit them with lies and broken promises, and make them live in company owned housing and pay higher than the prevailing rent. The old "company store" routine. Can`t happen here, right? See, www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562

Labor costs, including wages, benefits, retirees included, make up 10% of the cost of a UAW made vehicle. Most Wall Street firms show 60% of their costs go to salaries, their bailout money only was supposed to be conditioned on no bonuses, but that has already been violated.The UAW agreed to the concessions, then the Republican Senators wanted to change the dates agreed to. They have shown in a leaked memo their intention to attack organized labor, they were negotiating in bad faith with no real effort to make a deal. Why put on a show? If they were going to say no, why not have guts enough to be upfront about it?

If GM goes, so does Chrysler, then the suppliers, who also supply Ford and the transplants. GM will have no money, and no ability to get credit, if they ever do start producing again, it would probably take two years. Ford has some money because they borrowed heavily before the credit crunch, when their suppliers are gone, that money won`t last, and they will be bankrupt. Toyota uses some of the same suppliers, they will be hurting for parts, and the ensuing chaos in the economy will drive their sales even lower. Even at a rate of 7-8 million units a year, the transplants couldn`t do it with no parts. The whole auto business is interwoven, and even Toyota does not want to see the Big3 go under. It would lower their bottom line immediately, and when things begin to straighten out in 18-24 months, then their monopoly will allow them to charge whatever they want, pay as little as they want(already have a program underway to slash wages and benefits in the U.S.) and send the profits home. U.S. economy will lose $156 billion in federal tax revenue the first 3 years, states $6 billion more. How long do you think a recession/depression will last then? These are the words of economists not wild ideas from my head.

Good point zoom:
Ford actually said they MAY DECLINE the bailout funds, if they are approved. They are currently in much better shape then GM is, if you take a look at their balance sheet.
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I personally think if Ford turns it down, they will be coming out of this whole mess WAY better then the other two. If this bailout $$$ really has a "car czar" and some moron in DC dictates what will be produced, where the $$$ will go, dictates a green agenda, ext ext. Ford will be sitting pretty when they don't have to answer to all that nonsense, because they did not except the money!
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We'll see how it all plays out, but right now Ford is sitting the best of the 3. Most estimations say they can survive without any bailout. All depending, of course, just how deep and how long the recession goes on.

"You can`t take 6 million units of production out of the system and not expect prices to rise. The transplants cannot build, or even ship 12 to 17 million cars a year until they build more factories, and that doesn`t happen overnight."

You keep using the assumption that ALL of the Detroit three are going to go bankrupt and stop production at the same time. You are greatly over exaggerating the situation, especially in the situation for Ford. If GM goes Chapter 11, production will not completely stop. Besides, in January, they will have reduced their production by about 50% from the last few years! Also, current demand is down to a level of less than an 11 million units per year, and the transplants, on average, are no longer at full capacity. There is no chance of demand outstripping supply in the short run. It sounds like you are proposing that the Government keep paying workers to build cars that nobody wants to buy, in case demand goes back up in the future.

"If they go, your $24,000 Prius immediately becomes worth $35 or $40 thousand to Toyota, because of the law of supply and demand. You can`t take 6 million units of production out of the system and not expect prices to rise."

Actually, Toyota just announced that the proposed new Prius factory in Mississippi is being put on hold, due to reduced demand.

Thanks! Now us oldsters have to rest!

Well factcheck for someone who claims to have to one finger type you sure come up with intelligent non-confrontational things to say and I respect you for that. I don't know what will fix this either but throwing money at it without a solid plan isn't going to help either. I hope that when they get the money they use it wisely because they will get it.

Check out this address and go to the heading of, "Lowering Wages And Benefits In The U.S." Very interesting! wwww.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562

Retirees would probably get paid from the Pension Guaranty Corporation, but they are way underfunded and probably will need a "bailout". The younger retirees could have to take a big cut under that program. But, the health care would be gone, and you know what kind of costs we are talking for us older folk. I`d love to be able to wave a magic wand and make everything perfect, but my waver is a little rusty! I`d like to see a few constructive comments once in a while instead of, " two bits for the autoworker".

Yeah... My issue with that post is "cut the retirees loose". They lived in the hay-day and paid into their pension for years, this is true, but they deserve every dime they receive because they didn't see this coming. I'd hate to see an already stagnant job market become saturated with people that are 60-70-80 years old because they lost their income. And in another ten years, we'll all be out social security and medicaid unless something happens!!!

factcheck yes I have made the union sound like a whipping boy for that I'm sorry. I just don't get why Ford, Chrysler, GM, and the UAW couldn't get together to cut expenses right now until the economy recovers and it does sound like the unions fault. Besides what I've seen from some UAW members. I guess I never saw enough of the good ones to get a good impression and unfortunatley assumed that the several UAW members that I did see who were worthless represented the majority.
For that I'm sorry. I wouldn't want a few lazy people at my work being what people think of when they come by.

You do realize I can only do this with one finger, never took typing! Yes, all parties must be involved, they were all a part of the problem, but sometimes on this post it seems that the union is the whipping boy. Nobody ever said they were perfect, if my name was mentioned to the union reps at the plant, they would roll their eyes, and shake their heads! Let`s hope something can be worked out, because a majority of the economists are saying this recession will be a depression if the Big3 go.

Wow long post.
If you go back to one of my past posts I stated no one wants to kick the 80 or 90 year old retiree to the curb. I think they should get their benefits. I was talking about the UAW allowing a pay cut for current workers UNTIL the economy recovers not forever. And as far as the foreign companies they aren't asking for a bailout and if they do they can ask their countries of origin. The BIG 3 could come back stronger when this economy recovers if both players The company and the worker become honest with eachother and both stop milking the gravy train so hard until the economy recovers.I don't see why the taxpayer should have to take on this burden. GM's accents wouldn't disappear into smoke the minute they filed bankruptcy. They could renegotiate with their creditors and they could even let the union back in for all I care but something needs to be done on their part to start saving their own hide before they come after my hard earned money.

So your answer to the crisis is to have UAW workers give up part of their wages, and benefits, cut the retirees loose, get rid of the jobs bank(done, except for Japanese jobs bankers),take $10 billion in GM stock in lieu of the cash they have negotiated to take over the health care of all employees and retirees, and then hope the company and creditors follow suit someday? $28 an hour that everybody mentions wouldn`t have to be touched in order to bring them into "parity" with the transplants. That just leaves benefits, and retirees to be bargained with. People who worked 30 to 50 plus years and set up their retirements with the promise of health care and pension payments. New hires won`t get a pension, they have to have a 401. If GM survives they won`t have that burden after all the workers that have earned a defined pension are dead. How are you going to feel if at age 62, 65, Social Security sends you a letter saying, sorry, even though you paid into us for 45 years we decided not to pay you anything back. There is supposed to be a difference in what a UAW worker and a transplant worker receive in health care and pension benefits, but I have never seen what the transplant workers get, so I can`t make a comparison. I do know GM pays $12,000 for a family plan. If they survive into 2010 the union will take that cost from them. A retiree with 30 years, at 62, gets $1500 a month, minus surviving spouse obligations if chosen. The biggest difference between transplants and big3 has been work rules, and those were partially addressed in the new contract. Some jobs are completely gone, given to outside contractors for less money, and no benefits. They might be a little slow to come around, but both parties have been trying, Now comes this recession, credit debacle to put them on the verge of bankruptcy. If they go, your $24,000 Prius immediately becomes worth $35 or $40 thousand to Toyota, because of the law of supply and demand. You can`t take 6 million units of production out of the system and not expect prices to rise. The transplants cannot build, or even ship 12 to 17 million cars a year until they build more factories, and that doesn`t happen overnight. In the long run, a loan could end up being a lot cheaper for the American consumer. Can you imagine the incentives, on top of the $3 billion already paid out, that will be asked for to build those new plants?

Most here are upset because they are going to be out of work. Its a shame that has to happen. Regardless of the bailout loan GM Janesville will be closed at least until the economy improves. I personally feel that if the UAW would have taken the pay cut I would have been ok with them getting the money. Simple economics shows that you can't pay that much out in personnel with the economy in a recession. UAW didn't want to take these concessions until 2011 when the were going to renegotiate a new contract. They needed to do it now not in 2 years. Hopefully in 2 years this will all be a moot point and the economy will recover.

The start of this current crisis came because of the housing crisis and sub prime loans. GM and the UAW had indications about the marget changing years before this current crisis came to a head. GM over paid it's CEO and Management along with the workers. They should have been working on streamlining competing product lines years ago but didn't because it would have cut UAW jobs and its better to pay people to work and make something than to have them sit in the jobs bank. Most unions aren't bad. Unions did start out with a purpose, that purpose was for the safetly of the worker and to insure an honest days wage for an honest days work. $27/hour isn't an honest wage for the work they do. But that doesn't matter what matters is if the product is not selling either layoffs have to occur or wage concessions have to be made. No company union or not can afford to pay workers to work at full capacity if their product isn't selling.

"Supplemental Unemployment Fund, is funded by the workers for the layoff times."

But GM pays your salary, which is where the money comes from, in the form of above average wages.

"The facts have been given here, labor cost of a UAW made vehicle is 10% of the price, including retirees benefits."

But that's enough to make GM's cars uncompetitive. That's less money that GM can devote to better interiors and quality, which is how the transplant manufacturers have beaten GM, Ford and Chrysler over the years.

I would agree that not enough is talked about GM's management. Why do they produce similar vehicles from different brands that compete in the same segments? Why do they have so many dealers that compete with each other, compared to Toyota? Yes, changing those things costs money, but they should have made those changes when they were making money (how long ago was that?).

But can Chrysler or GM hold out that long? I agree that there most likely is a bailout in their future, but we know how long it takes anything to get done in congress. Not only will they be waiting for the new congress to be sworn in, but they'll be waiting for something to actually be decided.

This thing is FAR from "dead".
My god, when will some ever learn how this stuff works? If bush can't get it done through the TRAP funds, the bailout bill will simply be reintroduced when the new congress comes in. If they don't have the votes by then (with a bigger Democratic majority), all you do is add a few more billion in pork projects to buy off a few members on the fence. They WILL GET A BAILOUT of some kind or another! This is such a NON story now.

chemical-6 You are right, it is everybodys fault, but a lot of people only want to blame one group for our problems, the union. Sure they had a hand in it, so did the Big3, the government, the consumers who bought too large of a house or wanted an SUV or truck. Demand drove the automakers to make those vehicles. GM used to have one plant making Suburbans, but the demand went up so much they eventually had three. Same with trucks. Nobody wanted anything else. I have a nice Malibu, gets 31 mpg. They were selling pretty good till the credit crunch, now even Priuses are not selling. Can`t blame that on the union, can you? I`m sure someone will try. The facts have been given here, labor cost of a UAW made vehicle is 10% of the price, including retirees benefits. Jobs bank done away with, except for the foreign companies. Supplemental Unemployment Fund, is funded by the workers for the layoff times. UAW agreed to concessions, then the Senate wanted to change the date that they would be in "parity" with the transplants. I`m not saying the UAW is blameless, far from it, but they are not the number one reason the auto makers are on the brink. Yet, that is what I hear here.

We are never going to have world peace and there will always be two sides to the story. The government and people around it are more corrupt than ever and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. I hate to be Debbie Downer, but as long as there are republicans, democrats, and liberals… there will be no common ground. Most humans have an opinion and are not afraid to voice it. A lot of humans also have the mentality that if you don’t follow their way of thinking… then you are worthless. Unfortunately, the world is part of many LARGE cults…. It’s a republican thing, a democratic thing, a liberal thing, a nazi thing, an army thing, a Christian thing, a stoner thing, a government thing, etc…. It never really seems to be an American thing… because no two people will completely agree on everything… I feel this is why the world is becoming more and more arbitrary every day. It would take a complete global meltdown and reboot to save us from where we are heading…

Also, I realize I am a “glass half empty” type of person.. I know this, and have accepted it. However, I am also one that is not afraid of the truth, if you are… I am sorry. Not everyone hears “if you were happy, and everyone worked together this world would be a better place” and actually MAKES the world a better place… hence my argument above. Some people just don't/won't.
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Just look at this blog...prime example of people voicing thier opinions and not coming to a common ground. It's the automakers fault, it's the UAW's fault, it's the governments fault, it's America's fault... no one takes blame for actions they cannot justify with a lie, truth or crooked smile.

shorty, your logic makes no sense, everyone on here is directly involved, you yourself said it will effect the entire community,

i agree with anonomouse, it started with the housing lenders, we know of two different couples that had 3 houses foreclosed on or sold on short sale , and they both still got mortgages in the last year , then car dealers started giving loans to people who didnt qualify, the problem all these loans have high interest rates, if you dont have the money a higher interest rate is not going to help you , then when people got financailly strap by this they went an applied for a second mortgage , and the bank over assessed the value to get them the loan, the government looked the other way the whole time this was happening , local government loved it because then they could assess the houses higher, more tax dollars for them , what really got us where were at today is greed , even big business will tell you when a loan comes due, you just get another loan

Telling people to shut up online is silly.

It is also the tax revenue from the autoworkers that will be missed when these jobs are gone.

shorty, I've tried to share my business doings in here and the Gazette editorial staff see's to it that it's removed. Sorry, I've tried!

We are all directly affected because it's our tax dollars you are begging for.

Let me make a suggestion.... UNLESS you are DIRECTLY involved; that being an employee, union rep. Please shut up and let these people have their own business. Or better yet, why don't you share your business doings with everyone. I have never seen so many so caught up in what others have or are getting or losing!!! I'd share my bus. info but it's just me involved, pretty boring. Get past this all, people are losing jobs and like it or not this ENTIRE community will feel the affect. Large businesses are not easy to attract to towns. Edgerton never got anything back after Dana left. Think before you speak, you might be surprised ; and make your mother ashamed of the foul bs that comes from your mouth. And for those that like to gossip... the asian people seen taking photos by the plant are in town doing a documentary of the GM business, sorry they are NOT from Honda or Toyota. Happy Holidays to those affected and may everything work out for all families involved.

anonomouse-"Find another source to back this and I will consider believing it." I doubt it! You are so bitter towards the UAW (why is that?), that I highly doubt anything would change your opinion of autoworkers! By the way, what line of work are you in?

Found it and am listening to it now. This news guy has a pro-UAW slant but all news reporters have a slant. I see he had a printout but there was no proof it's legit. Find another source to back this and I will consider believing it.

Try thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com

I`m new at this computer stuff, so I kind of pound my way through the internet with one finger. I saw it on a blog from Keith Olbermann, if that is the right spelling. Cutting and pasting are beyond my meager skills as of yet.

factcheck Do you have a link to this memo? I'd like to read it.

A Republican memo that was circulated to the Senators last Wednesday has turned up. In it they are admonished to make sure the bailout, loan, whatever, is shot down because, in their words, "to get in the first shot at organized labor". Union busting! First they gut the regulations about mortgages, then when that causes a recession, their intent looks like a try at a depression. There is enough blame to go around, but it seems to me that they are so hurt about being trounced in the election, that they are intent on being obnoxious. If they would have allowed a vote on the loan, with the concessions, it would have passed. The vote they took was a procedural one to stop debate, and vote on the loan.

The housing and credit crisis started all of this. People are over extended and no one can afford to buy any car right now. Until things improve giving or loaning money to make more cars that won't sell isn't going to help anything. The union agreeing to take a pay cut would have done alot to sway the publics opinion for this. The way it stands the UAW looks greedy.

Toyota just announced they were suspending work on a new plant being built in Mississippi, because they are not selling enough autos to make it worthwhile. Maybe their workers will be asked(Oh, no union, TOLD!) to take a wage and benefit cut. If the Big3 go bankrupt, it will happen for sure, and wage cuts will ripple across the country.

According to polling very few would consider buying a car from a company in bankruptcy. 5% interest for 5 years, then 9% for two years for the "loan". Supposedly we taxpayers will get a return on the bailout money to the financial institutions. But when they have spent it ,already, on acquiring Chinese companies, AND BONUSES TO THE EXECS, instead of loosening credit, for which they were designed for, where is the oversight?

Does anybody have any idea what kind of interest rate the auto industry will have to pay for their bailout "loan"? After all, if they are getting this bailout money from us taxpayers, we should expect to make a return on our investment. I think the reason nobody mentions getting interest on the loans is that it will be rather hard to get ANY money paid back from a bankrupt company. Wake up people, this is gift money, not a loan. Its certainly not a gift I want to give.

Beloitguy ... did the article you read also state that the total wages and benefits paid to the employees make up only 10% or less of the price of the vehicle. Everyone complains about the wage issue, and gets hung up on it. The wage issue is thrown out there to distract the viewing public from the real issues because the media and the corporations know that they pay good wages/not everyone makes that kind of money/and people will get jealous or angry about it. So they throw it out there as fodder and people eat it up.

ammfrm.... chrysler also emerged from bankruptcy it didn't completely fold. Some companies go into bankruptcy and never recover.

ammfrm--- If you purchased a vehicle from a company and that company subsequently went bankrupt. Said company would not be obligated to stand by any warranty, guarantee, etc. Also...after a while when said company is gone, repair parts such as fenders, bumpers, parts of the interior etc. for that vehicle would not be readily available. Knowing this, would you consider buying a vehicle from company nearing bankruptcy?

Just for the record, the UAW agreed to the concessions. The sticking point was that the Senators wanted a set date to implement them. The company and bondholders just had to submit a "plan" to share the pain. Jobs bank invented by the Japanese, they still have them. Big3 stole that idea, not the UAW.

Never said buy American. When the Big 3 are selling cars that people want and can get the credit to buy, they make huge profits and pay excellent wages. So, the pessimists are looking at the current snapshot of the industry and blanketing it as that way forever and ever. Way to be short sighted. The fact is that it is not taxpayer money until the loan is defaulted on so quit your crying. I don't hear China whining about whether or not America will make good on the bonds it buys from us thanks to Georgy boy. So, get your facts straight. Taxpayers don't actually pay until the loans are defaulted on and this recession is less than the great depression which we eventually came out of. This means you are wasting taxpayer dollars for not investing this money in companies that will eventually be profitable again. GOOD JOB!!!!

I was just reading an article that stated the average GM laborer received $29 and a change wage per hour. When you factored in benefits that rose to nearly $69 per hour. Is there any wonder why the American auto industry is a mess?

I don't get why the UAW has any say on this. The Big 3 asked for this loan.

Edsci_ You are so concerned that we by american which I do try to do when I can, but let me ask you about the shirt, pants, socks, shoes and jacket you are wearing where were they made??

This story reminds me of the situation with Janesville Products. They went to the union?/employees and told them if you take a $1/hour pay cut we can keep the doors open. They said no, so the doors were closed and they made 0 instead. (These #s might not be exact- but the point is still there).
To me this doesn't make sense.
I also don't understand how bankruptcy will be devasting to everyone. Chryler if I remember right filed bankruptcy once already and they still sell cars. The quote that people won't buy products from a bankrupt company confuses me. Can someone clarify that part?

If anyone had been watching this closely,they would've seen that congress was playing a game. Their intentions were to make the big three squirm,make concessions,sell their jets,act like a beggar,just belittle the he-- out of them. The congress had "NO" intention of passing this,i aint no fool. The GODS on the hill love to see the little people squirm,i hope they make a dog run next to their graves,that's what they deserve in the end.

Interesting article and facts:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2...

So-is it true that the foreign auto companies will continue to be subsidized by our government and theirs, continue to pay their autoworkers a comparable wage, un-unionized, and the US auto companies will be "on their own"? This is a genuine question-I'm asking-not telling.
Those who think making a very good wage is terrible and think the autoworkers (those working for US companies only) should be happy to work for $8, $10, $12 an hour-watch your own wages drop-maybe even minimum wage go down, because companies selling burgers will think they don't have to pay the same wages as people selling automobiles (which seems logical).

Whatever the true wage cuts will be, it will be a moot point in Janesville after Dec. 23rd. Other cuts proposed on laid off/ retired workers ,(by the UAW), will have a devastating affect on this whole area. That is my real concern. I do not and have never worked for GM. That is not my point. The auto industry is just another issue in this failed economy. I agree that unions can be unreasonable with what they ask for. I am not a union lover but know that they were started for good reasons. I am concerned for ALL workers and communities who have or will lose their income and all the people suffering through this. Yes, people want things in an affluent society. But most have lived reasonably. When we are feeling powerless and worried, we tend to turn on those around us for an easy "blame". We do the same with teachers. But the imbalance of wealth to the top, due to the actions and policies in Washington, has come crashing down on us. I am upset that the very wealthy and corporations who HAVE BEEN the most greedy and are allowed to hold onto their millions/billions while so many suffer due to their mistakes.Should we not expect them to sacrifice even a little? The average citizens are not being excused from their financial obligations . We should, also, blame our elected officials who have forgotten that they are "public" servants responsible for representing us, with policies which allowed this. I believe we did vote for justice this past November. My hope is, after the meltdown we will emerge as a more moral, sensible society.

By the way, the UAW doesn't give anything up without something in return. Just like the jobs bank. It was created in return for more automation. They have not "given" anything up in the last couple of weeks. Nothing in the contract has been changed. They said they would 'consider' and discuss eliminating the jobs banks. They should not have had it in the first place. Nobody should be 'happy' that the auto industry is falling apart, but it was a group effort. Americans, Management, Labor all were contributors.

Unidentified- Did you know that there are already second tier workers employed at all of the plants, including the one here in Janesville?

myturn: No offense, but the concession called the "jobs bank" was laughable to many. Most outside of UAW workers felt it should have never existed in the first place. People sitting at home or at work for years making above average wages for doing nothing? To give that up only concedes how ridiculous it was. That is almost as laughable at the two tier wage argument. Granted, the two tier wage is a big step forward. However, since GM is closing more plants, there will be thousands at the tier one wage available for work. The second tier wage structure won't see the light of day for many years to come. By then it's possible two of the big three are in bankruptcy protection. Of course if that happens all of the contracts are ripped up and retirees lose benefits also. Which is better? I'd be happy if things could go back to the way there were. Back to the days when everyone was making good money and cars were selling. Nonetheless, times are changing and the competition is fierce. The choice is to make changes now and have a job in ten years or face a complete collapse of the American auto industry.

The UAW is in no position to be barganing, I agree with what some others said if only they would of agreed for a few dollars per hour wage cut it would have made all the difference in the world. For those that are still brain washed by the UAW hope they will be helping you find a new job when all is said and done.

Chapter 11 would not work for the auto industry. You are looking at chapter 7, liquidation. That will have devastating effects. Stocks would not just "rebound".

the only people right now not happy, are those who didn't take the buy out of between 70,000-140,000. Because they thought GM would keep writing the checks forever. Those people are probably sick to their stomachs with good reason. They missed a golden opportunity.

So, we can say that US state governments were part and parcel part of the very cause of bringing down US automakers, and now they refuse to help them, all for their own gain, and the gain of these foreign country's and THEIR automakers, (which are also subsidized by their respective countries)? And they say that the union's refusal to allow workers for US companies to make less than their foreign counterparts (working in the USA) are the reason why?
Honest-I'm just trying to see the real picture (not the cloudy one.)

Even if stocks go down now, they will eventually rebound when the "Big 3" reorganize under chapter 11. This is the best for them. Get rid of the ridiculous Union.

almeg - They are still digging a grave. Read the other posts below that don't agree with the UAW. Their hope is running out and their options simply don't exist. That's what I'm saying. The have no leg to even stand on with regards to anything.

The UAW offered to give up the Jobs Bank. That will stop them from being paid when they are not working. That is a huge concession in lost money for every laid off employee.

spark- I didn't mean you are ignorant personally. But you don't seem to have the facts. The time frame was the sticking point. How about uninformed?

RUSerious- That is true. Sen. Shelby of Alabama and Sen. Corker of Tenn.

I'm sorry it looks like the entire address didn't come through. I'll try again.

http://www.goodjobsfirst.org:80/corporat...

When the Fab Four were testifying before Congress and it was suggested that everyone would have to take a "haircut", Ron Gettelfinger made it a point to suggest that the UAW had already made enough concessions and that they they should not be asked to make any more. That seemed a bit troublesome to me , but no one seemed to make an issue out of it and so I figured that he was just grandstanding and everyone else knew that was the case. Now when I read that the Senate rejected the bill and cited that as one of the reasons, I can only shake my head in wonderment. No one wants to see GM fail, but when they get this money, what will they do with it? If they use it to pay wages to people for not working, there is a name for that and it is not unemployment. If they keep making cars and no one buys them, what are they going to do with them?

almeg - I appreciate you not calling me ignorant again. Do you see me name calling you? What does the timeframe matter? Take what you can get at this stage. I'm done feeling sorry for this situation. It's ridiculous.

RUSerious- This site gives good information on that subject:

http://www.goodjobsfirst.org:80/corporat....

I would like to know if this is true: The southern lawmakers were the ones who brought this down-but in those states are foreign auto manufacturers who were subsidized by the US government to come to the US. It was just on the news this morning-and these same factories, where the employees make wages competing with the US autoworker wages (minus legacy costs, so far) will be the ones to gain from a failure of the "Big 3".
Something to think about.
(and yes, I posted this in another place).

Ivocal you stated to the effect that if the autoworker takes a paycut they will then be in poverty status? What the heck?

Spark- The UAW has agreed to concessions in the past and they agreed to concessions on this loan. What they didn't agree to, was the unrealalistic time frame for it!! We are not talking about just "a few dollars" an hour wage reduction. Get the facts before you go off on one of your ignorant rants.

It should be remembered that the UAW were the first to make cuts when they gave up the jobs bank.
Maybe the Senators should lead by example and take a cut in their wages and benefits. Aren't they the "CEOs" of this country and just as responsible as anyone for the economic mess we are in?

ivocal~ I respectfully disagree with that. To some degree, we're all greedy. It's human nature to want better things for ourselves and families. Here's the thing. Where do we draw the line? When is ENOUGH, enough? Anytime something is money driven, no amount of money will ever be enough!
EVERYTHING rises and falls on LEADERSHIP! The leadership of the UAW is a direct reflection of the members it has! Remember, the people who lead the UAW are voted into office by the members of the UAW! Much like the citizens of this country. WE the people vote our leaders into office! If we don't like the direction of the leadership these days, maybe people should wake up and learn to unite and come together for the good of all rather for the good of themselves! I'm not dismissing myself from this equation either! It's about all of us!

What I think many are seeking isn't wage reductions on new workers, who will only make 14-15 dollars an hour. It's the current workforce which makes twice as much, something like 74 dollars an hour with benefits. GM won't be hiring anytime soon. They'll have enough laid off first tier workers to stay staffed for the next decade. As a result, the two tier wage structure does little to convince skeptics. Though I don't feel first tier wages or benefits should be cut drastically, I do think a few dollar concession would have been in good faith and forced broader support for a bailout.

myturn - they'd still have a job. Which at the rate they're going now, that's not looking so good. I know plenty of people that make that an hour.

Unidentified - Exactly! Well said. Show that you're willing to compromise. Show that you really appreciate the help. Similar to the CEO clowns flying in their corporate jets. They already had a strike against them when they arrived. Use some common sense.

--beloit guy-At last look ( I applied for a job at GM about 16 yrs ago, the entry level position (on average) was starting at 13.23/hr.. that was for pushing a "Broom" in the lunch room.. How many jobs do you see like that out there,, I declined the offer, (DUMB ME) and went into health care.. I became an EMT for the county (DANE) and worked in Milwaukee for a few years.. that was some of the best rewarding years of my life.. the pay was not the best but the "fruits of my labor" off set that..
now being disabled ( due to medical reasons) I wish I could have some of those years back and do more..

spark- It may not be "poverty" status but it would qualify that person's children for reduced or free school lunch in the state of wisconsin.

I'm torn on this issue. Though I understand we've given billions to banks, the problem with the auto manufacturers is different. Giving more money to a multi decade long losing business model isn't going to help. I think even just a few dollar wage concession from the UAW would have been in good faith and would have still left auto workers well compensated. Considering support for an auto bailout only sits at about 40%, the auto companies and union have little leverage in this argument. It's tough to get support from the rest of the country when most of the support they seek makes less than twenty dollars an hour and half the other benefits if not far less. The entire country is making cut backs, staff reductions, and wage reductions. Even the NFL has cut staff. A small wage and benefit concession from the UAW would have pushed public support numbers much higher and forced republicans to give an up vote. Once approved, as with every other government funded program, the money would have flowed endlessly. Instead, they chose to risk bankruptcy, which will only hurt their membership more in the long run.

happycamper, I agree! In all these "bail-outs", I think the execs who are responsible for mismanagement should pay fines and reimbursement out of their private millions. The people at the bottom should not bear the brunt of this while the wealthy hold on to billions. Let's stop focusing on the little guy. What an immoral society. It is not the UAW and the workers who are greedy!

BeloitGuy- Since the concessions given in the last contract, that person would make $14 per hour with few benefits.

By the way...$15 an hour is not poverty status.

almeg - and you, like many others, are in denial. The UAW is doing no good with any of this.

Using critical thinking and alot of good information, one can see why the senate Republicans are not on board. They have been trying to get rid of unions for some time now, (for corporate profit). Bottom line-- Union busting tactics. It's political ideology. If anything, the union execs should make personal concessions. Any cuts should not put the average worker in poverty status. Look outside your own little world and you will see how that will hurt everyone, yes everyone.

spark-If you are blaming the UAW for this, then obviously, you did not watch any of the hearings on this. You are completely ignorant on this issue.

10% of the bailout money is for CEO pay and congress questions the hourly wage of workers? Lets lower their pay!

Just wondering...What does the first year employee with no experience make per hour at GM?

Well I am going to ring bells for the Salvation Army now (Just one of the many ways the UAW helps out in this community). How many of you nay sayers contribute to the growing number of needy in this community??? There are plenty of kettles to go around. And the need will rise sharply in the very near future!!!

HELLO? Is anyone out there? Because people are making comments on this, that means they're happy about the troubles the auto industry is having. NOBODY want this to happen, but when are you people going to see the light? Everyone and I mean everyone should be completely shocked at UAW right now. They are complete fools and just proved what they are about. Greed. They just blew it. Don't sit here and blame anyone else. The finger can be pointed directly at them.

Remember this is a LOAN we are talking about. The beloved Japanese carmakers are also having trouble, but unlike us, they have an ally with their government. The US auto industry is like a huge ship, slow for changes to take effect. Changes and improvements have been made. It takes time for these things to pan out. Abrupt changes will make catestrophic results throughout the US and world economies.

For those of you that are "happy" about this and think it wont affect you, watch the stock market today. This will affect EVERYONE!!

The UAW supported and endorsed the Democrat candidates as usual. They told their members to vote against the republicans.

The Dems have in turn supported the loan or bailout and the republicans have generally not supported it. The Dems, in typical fashion, are in maximum pander to the union mode. They like the union votes and the union contributions of dollars.

If the automakers have to go bankrupt, they will rebuild without the UAW. If they get the money from our wallets, they will rebuild with the UAW.

It looks to me like there is a little bit of old fashioned Karma coming round to nibble on the backside of the union. This is a good show that is being put on for us to watch.

The US Auto industry, and US manufacturing in general, was instrumental in the war effort during WWII. How can you say the D3 are not important to our national security???

I find it odd that lawmakers were stumbling over themselves to shell out 700 billion to the banks and investment firms that are directly tied to the mortgage disaster without any oversight at all, and now won't invest in the largest part of America's manufacturing sector.

Yes, the car companies need BIG changes, and put all their eggs in one big basket, but, more than bad mortgages, without our manufacturing base America dies.

The greed of the UAW is amazing. Wake the hell up!! Your options are gone. You should be begging for help and instead you can't even negotiate. Simply unbelievable.

edsci - nobody was talking about $5 an hour jobs. That is even less than minimum wage. Realistic wages for assembly would be $14-$19 an hour based on skill and experience. Keep in mind the UAW and GM knew all along that 'legacy costs' would be there. It didn't sneak up on them. They hid their inefficiency behind sales in spite of themselves. Now that there is no sales, mismanagement rises to the top. If the U.S. loans money to the D3, where does it end? Do casinos, gas stations, dog tracks, strip clubs, taverns get the same loans? If not, why? The bailout of the financial industry was thinly presented as stabilizing the currency structure which is the U.S. Gov. responsibility. The auto industry is not imparative to our national security.

pack,
It's a little late to start implementing wage cuts! Just as darius said, the leadership of the UAW should've been thinking about that 5 years ago. The workers who voted the leaders into office for the UAW are a part of the problem as well. For years it's always been take, take, take......... if there had been some effort on everyone's part to make concessions, the ship wouldn't be sinking like it is. 5-10 years ago, no way would a person running for the leadership of the UAW who had the vision and guts to come forth and say "we need to make concessions and cut back on the pay scale" have ever made office! It's the voters who put these people in office and they would've had no part of that! Knowing what they know now, I bet they would've thought differently! The future was compromised for NOW by everyone involved. It was a team effort. It's another example of the instant gratification society that we live in.

The problem is no one trusts the other player is truthful. The Senators opposing the LOAN are grandstanding for their own political gains, the American economy would be allowed to suffer and the taxpayers would pay the price through further bankruptcies, unemployment and further strain on the financial indusriy. The automakers may just be out for cheap money, and not be quite as bad off as they are saying. The UAW is calling their bluff by not backing down and allowing their represented employees to be financially destroyed. Unfortunately the UAW has not educated the public on the many concessions they have given over the last 5 years. But in reality that is none of their business. It should be the business of the parties at the negotiating table. I commend Ron Gettlfinger for having the backbone to stand up to these senators. The UAW retirees would be innocent victims in this high stakes poker game.

I tried to purchase my lease on my '07 Silverado, and they offered it to me at a cost more than a new Silverado. You think a company that was in this much trouble would be begging me to buy it. Instead, they drive me away to look for something more affordable. Time for some new business strategies, and a fire sale...

Am I missing something here. I thought the big 3 were asking for a loan not aid.

No LEADERSHIP! This is the residual effect of a lack of leadership. With leadership comes VISION. Something the GM brass and the UAW leaders have no idea about. They chose to not dig their well before they became thirsty! It's never wise to wait until your "car" breaks down before checking the oil!

Japanese auto sales are down as well, this is the nature of durable goods. They last a while. However, the Japanese government through the Ministry of International Trade and Industry and through the huge government controlled banks would never allow their companies to fail. Evidently they love their country.

If you don't like American at least buy something Union made. Do you really want someone making $5 an hour putting the brakes on your car or the tread on your tires. Unlike your butt you should think about what comes out of your mouth.

UAW= Unwilling Action on Wages.

edsci - was there backlash against Thomas Edison when he invented electricity by the gas lantern lighters? The time for $32 an hour in exchange for assembly, is over. The market has proven that.

Let's see. We could use American dollars to help American companies to hire American workers who would then spend those dollars at other American businesses and pay taxes to support our American schools.

So, American workers should now accept the same wages that foreign companies pay? Way to sell out your country to the Japanese Mr Shelby. The Emperor would be proud.

You are missing one of the pieces to the auto industry puzzle - the greed of the UAW. The fate of the US auto industry is a triangle; Management, Market, and the UAW. The market has spoken, management has spoken, and now the UAW has spoke. They are not prepared, or take this current situation seriously. I say let them fail, and for the record, why.

I for one am happy. I love supporting and buying American Made, and from an American corporation, but their prices of new cars have gotten way out of hand. A malibu which is a mid-size car for $25,000, a trailblazer for $40,000, and a tahoe for $55,000. Give me a break. How can anyone afford these without going way in debt, and when you do try and buy one of these they depreciate so much faster than an import. So why would i want to buy American, it would not benefit me.
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Hopefully after they go bankrupt and realign wages and benefits, and stop paying people who no longer work for them, they can compete and come out ahead stronger.
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On another note, why does everyone think that 3 million jobs are going to be lost. They are not all shutting the doors, but needing to renegotiate wages. I am sure workers given the option of working for less money but keeping a job will comply. So very few jobs will be lost through Bankruptcy.

I must not understand this. It stalled because the UAW refused to wage cuts??? What say do they have in it? And why can't they agree to wage cuts to try and save some jobs??? What am I missing here?

I've been predicting GM's bankruptcy for the last 5 years. Anyone in Janesville want to join me in opening a soup kitchen? We live in a country where the rich don't give a darn and the rest of us are unemployed. And it all came to a head in the past 8 years.