I`m not going to bash, but in 40 years in the plant I never saw, or heard, of a job like you describe. And if there was one, someone with 40 years of seniority would have had it. I knew people with college degrees that worked there, and people with GED`s. When I first started I knew men who signed their paychecks with an X because they never learned to write their names. Did that make them any less of a worker than a college grad? When I hired in you had to be a high school graduate, the GED stipulation came later. You are the first person on these blogs that has admitted to being envious, I congratulate you on your honesty. Labor costs at GM in 2008 were 6% of income, doesn`t seem like that is enough to cause all this uproar, unless you`re a Senator from a low wage right to work state. Do you honestly believe that if all unions were disbanded that employers would voluntarily do right by the workers? The only reason most do now is to keep the union out.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Unions have outlived their usefulness. Back in the day, the union protected workers from the sweat shop conditions of companies, who's bottom line was the only thing that mattered. The slave labor conditions and child labor was horrendous in my grandparents' day. The union brought structure and bearable working conditions into the factories. They held companies accountable for how employees were treated and compensated.

Now a days though, with robotic technology and assembly equipment, wages have far surpassed the actual 'work" an employee performs on an assembly line. A gal who worked for GM back in the mid-eighties had the standard assembly job of placing a few bolts into something... she had 15 to 20 minutes between her "part of the assembly". She was an avid reader of novels between her actual hands on assembly... She made $22.00 an hour! Never went to college... was raising 2 daughters on her own. Her children played with my children and they went to school together.

I was also a single parent of two daughters... I made $12.00 an hour in a non-union printing company. Jealous? H$!! yes! When they had the summer changeover on the lines, she got 90% of her income and took her 2 girls on fabulous vacations! I worked my arse off at my job, and she stuck little bolts into something - just 3 to 4 times an hour! Her benefits were awesome and she really didn't have to "LABOR" for what she was making.

I'm sorry all these families are struggling... they were blindsided with the speed of the turn in the economy. But I just can't see how America can justify these wages for such little work.

My husband is 54, college educated and has been with the same Publishing company for 30 years. With wages and benefits all totaled, he doesn't make what some of these line workers make. I know for a fact, his job is more stressful and complicated than these "skilled" workers, popping in nuts and bolts. I have no sympathy for the industry as a whole.

I never bought a foreign car until 2001. I bought a used Certified Honda Accord and never had ANY issues with it. I sold it to my daughter with 185,000 miles on it and it still runs great! My hubby bought me a 2006 Toyota Solara convertible for my 50th birthday in October and I love that car!

That said, if you work for the automotive industry and try to hold out for all the perks you have enjoyed up until now, you'll be out of a job. Our economy will recover but things will not be "as usual"... Its time for change and performance accountability. Pay for work performed is what will be expected. Unions are done and should be.

My own opinion of course... so bash away... I expect it, living in a GM community.

Congress Moves to Crack Down on Bailout Recipientshttp://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/24/congress-moves-crack-bailout-recipients/
It looks like they are working on trying to make the banks be accountable.

edsci: Sorry, I did my 20 in the military already. So am I a baby killer too?

Alcoa to close http://www.beloitdailynews.com/articles/...
Knew about it last night but didn't want to be accused of rumors. Another group of people that will be out of work. Sad

Stewy-- That is correct. We are in a global economy. The jobs in this economy aren't going to be found in factories anymore unless people are willing to go to another country and work for 50 cents per hour or less. There are ways to take advantage of the new economy but it requires change and the hunger to learn. You can take advantage of the global economy or let it take advantage of you. That's the times we're in. God's blessings to all.

It's a global economy folks. Get used to it. The fact is we have so many regulations that the costs of American made products costs more to produce than someplace else where they don't have the regulations. If China had half the amount of regulations we had here we would have a better chance at competing with them.

I don't know why he's attacking the military but he should be thankful the military defended his right to sit on a newspaper message board and spew his garbage. If it weren't for the military he might not have that right.

edsci: Your good. The more I read of your rantings, your just feeding the fires. You ask, what enemy? It was just a generic question and not emplying there was an enemy at your door at this moment. So, again, a simple question "If there was an enemy at your door, who would you call (or expect) to defend you. The anti-war group(s)?
Union, non-union, made in America, made some where else, these are choices we are allowed to make when we decide to purchase something.
And you shouldn't be talking about anyone turning over in their grave because we buy products from Japan. Those soldiers gave their lives so that today, you can call their sons and daughters, grandsons and granddaughters as well a other relatives, baby killers. There was enough of that going on during the Viet Nam war. Wow, you are an orginal piece. For all I or any of us know, you may be the nicest person in the world but right now your not, but that is your right. The right that was created by the soldiers who fought in the Revolution. The ones who framed our Constitution and Declaration of Independence. Were they baby killers?
The brave soldiers of both the North & South, were they baby killers too? How about WW1 soldiers? What about the WWII and the Koren War soldiers? Were all the Viet Nam soldiers baby killers?
Or, is it just the soldiers of today?
Now, let's get back on track and talk about what we can do to help our workers, our community get through the tough times that lay ahead for all of us in this city, state and Country.
Sorry for my Ranting on like this, but it really P----d me off when someone cuts down our military. The armed forces may not be perfect, but thank God we have them. They puts their lives on the line.

I can't help thinking about the last time I went to UAW's Labor Fest. At the entrance to the parking lot was a sign that stated something along the lines of "Only American made vehicles allowed to park here". I couldn't help laughing to myself as I walked through the parking lot noticing numerous Dodge trucks (made in Mexico) parked in the lot, while Toyota trucks (made in Kentucky) have to park on the street. By the way, isn't Chevrolet a French word?

Times are rough and I feel for the people out of work factcheck made me realize I was unfairly slamming the union worker and I am sorry for that but right now people are buying only absolute necessities and buying whatever is cheaper. I know myself I've cut back on spending and I know if it means buying a foreign made item and having enough money to still put food on the table or buying a union made item and not I'm buying the foreign item. Sorry times are rough for everyone and while I feel for you, you have to also consider the plight the non union worker is in in this economy. We are all hurting.

You've got your foreign undies in a bundle. Go try and find union made ones.

Anonomouse, he is just all talk. Another one of those hyprocrites. It makes him feel good to try to convince people that it is their duty to buy the UAW vehicles, not because it is a better vehicle. Just because we have to support them in their lifestyle that they are accustomed to and to heck with the rest of the American workforce. Everything else we can buy foreign. Just once I would like to see someone actually backup their talk and dispose of their non-American products.

OMG Don't make him throw out all his foreign made clothing I really don't want to even think about that sight.

Edsci. When the enemy is at your door, who are you going to call? What do you call the civilians that kill babies? Or do you ignore that so you can spit your vile venom at those who are doing what you are unwilling to do--protect this country. You can be thankful that the enemy has not landed on our shores. You can be thankful that you can voice your opinion in a free country.
So again I ask you, who do you want to defend you when the enemy is at your door? I can picture answer now so I won't be surprised. As much as I hate to say it, the very people you are so hateful against will be there while you cower in the basement. They care enough to preserve your rights why do you have to deframe them? Guess it makes you feel good to tear down what you can't be.

Edsci, so when are you going to throw all of your foreign made household iteams out the door? Big talker like you I am surprised you haven't yet. Please let the Gazette know when you are going to do this. That would be a great article. Is this weekend a good time for you to toss out all that foreign crap? You have done the talk now can you do the walk?

whybesad:
Yes the government can create jobs. You can hire someone to dig ditches, and then hire someone else to come fill them. That was what the New deal was all about. The government can not create WEALTH via printing $$$; which is what the public will soon learn in this ill fated attempt of fiscal policy that is now taking place.

That assembly plant in Brazil is amazing.

Has the Government ever created jobs?

Edsci, do you have any foreign made object in your house?

Concerning the Ford plant in Brazil, I`m sure it could work here, if all the workers in the plant had the same pay scales and benefits. That is the only reason the union would have a gripe. And now, with a two tier wage system, you might be able to do it if Lear, LSI, and the auto workers decided it is O.K. to work at the same facility for different pay.

Take a look at this video at a Ford assembly plant in Brazil.
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?... <

Edsci-- Your statement regarding the military was perhaps the most ignorant statement I have read to date on these blogs. You seriously need to get off of the farm and get in touch with reality. As far as your comments insinuating that cars built by non-union laborers as being "dangerous"--I would put my non-union built Toyota up against any GM product any day of the week. My last Toyota was traded in at 170,000 miles--I had no issues with that car at all. A GM product would have gone through a new engine and transmission w/ that mileage--and would have been worthless at trade in time......

edsci: Cheap comment. Hope your proud that you have insulted not only the military but the families and friends of those serving or have given their lives so you could sit home. Farm work is important and dangerous but that gives you no cause to be small minded. You are a piece!!!!!

Hence the word... Numerous?

Not all of them are union

Usaret - I'm not sure how you took that statement as something negative against the military, fire department or police department. He just made a simple and true fact about work related injuries, or the possibilities thereof. Unlike the aformentioned three entities who do, and always will, risk their lives to save either the freedoms or the lives of so many others, Unions were designed to save the average working people a chance to say no to unsafe working conditions. If you choose to serve this country with your life, if neccessary, then you should be commended and held at a higher standard. Going to work and dying for a corporation, on the other hand, is just silly. Heck, even the police force and numerous fire departments across the land are union. This allows them to even be safer while saving lives.

usaret is coming close to my line of work.

What do you call the work the military does?
The work done at the plant can be dangerous but if you don't follow the safety rules, union, non-union, your posterior is grass and you place your work mates in danger. But please, don't even think to compare your work with that of the military, the police or the fire department. They place their lives on the line, what do you place!

Anonomouse doesn't work any part time jobs but I did in the past to pay the bills. You can keep attacking me but it's not going to change the fact that we are in a recession and alot of people aren't buying cars right now. We are also in a credit crisis where it's difficult for people to come across loans which means Auto makers aren't selling cars. Its common sense that if a product isn't selling then the producer has to cut down on production. If the fact I can see that doesn't mean I don't have empathy. Most of the people bashing me can't handle the truth and until you accept it you are going to have a hard time in this economy. Its sad that the economy is like this but it affects everyone.

Aparentwhocares - I knew your late husband well. He was a good friend, a good father and one heck of a worker. It's unfortunate that some of these people have no clue the sacrifices and the concessions that the UAW as a whole have taken over the years. It usually starts at the bottom, and this case it was the tier-two system that was brought in.

All Car companies are having a difficult time right now.We are in a recession. With the housing and credit crisis no one is buying and that is why I don't think GM will be able to pay back the loan they are requesting. Unless the economy picks up they will default. No sales, No money, No ability to pay back. I'm sure someone will come in and childishly tell me to shut up but those are the facts.

I find this interesting... Not only are the Big3 and the UAW suffering, but the rest of the auto industry isn't seeming to do all that well either.
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http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/bb...

http://epiac1216.wordpress.com/2008/12/1...
something I found interesting read under the pictures about the electric car.

The union's pride will bite its own ass in the end.

"DARIUS" posted: What does higher wages and improved lives have to do with each other? People can't be happy unless their making $27/hr? Believe me, I did the $27/hr. thing because I thought it would buy me happiness. It took me close to 10 years to realize that was a lie. People in society are brainwashed by the media into believing all that, I do understand that. One day a person asked me, "does money make you happy"? I said, "yes". This person used this analogy and it hit home with me: If I put a bag of one million dollars in cash to the left of you and your wife/husband/kids to the right of you and said "okay, now pick one right now. Whichever you pick is yours forever, whichever you don't, is gone forever. Which one would you pick? It's a no brainer. I understand people have to pay bills, but, it doesn't take $27/hr to lead a quality, fulfilled life! --- Okay, now the intellects can all have their say and feast on that!---------------
I say, AMEN brother/sister!!!!!!

No one is really laughing because people are losing their jobs. Most of the comments have been against the arrogance of a few who believe they walk on water. GM failed for many reasons just as the other two are faltering. Most of it comes from continuous passing the buck until now the bucks are gone. Now, someone has to pay the price. There have been clues for 30 years but no one wanted to hed them. Not the auto industry in this country, not the UAW and its workers, and tho hard to believe, our government and of course us. As a nation we have to decide what we want. Economy or guzzlers. With one comes employement with the other comes the bills.
As for Janesville, it will survive. New jobs must be created. Stop walloing in pity and get out and start doing something positive, otherwise we're stuck in a downhill sprial. We've got a lot of faults in this country but the one we don't have or need is failure. We are strong, we are proud, we are Americans. Let's work together! Contact your represenatives, local, state and federal--make your will heard.

Kio, interesting comment about social security. I had heard more along the lines of ten years, but whats the difference really? What its going to come down to, basically, is that all these people on this board laughing and hoping for failure to GM and their pension plans are going to feel it when SS breaks down. To simplify it in union speak (and the few other non-union places that have/had a pension) people choose where they want each piece of the "financial pie" to go. Wages/insurance/pension/vacation time/holidays off, silly stuff like that. Of course, we ALL pay into FICA (Social Security) whether we want to or not. So, as I see it, The retirees have paid into their pensions through less wages, worse insurance, less time off, etc so they should receive them. Now, when social security dries up, every OTHER hard working American will be all in a tizzy because they paid into FICA for years and never saw anything out of it, yet, want the retirees to suffer not only once but twice? I just don't get some peoples ideals on this issue.

anonomouse:
yes; I have been saying this over and over. Not that it really matters what you say on a blog, but they WILL get a bailout! This is a complete NO BRAINER that it will happen in some form or another. People should just stop worrying about it. It's GOING to happen. The public could be 99% against it. Most on the hill still answer to the 1% who sends them the massive campaign contributions, or can be conned into a vote via a massive pork give away in their own district.
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After this bailout, next comes Wisconsin, and all the 41 states who are in MASSIVE debt. They will all get bailed out, and after that on to the next struggling sector; likely the airlines.
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Anyone see 60 minutes tonight? FINALLY someone got off their lazy butt and brought up the NEXT big problem in the ALT-A loan meltdown. My God; I have been beating that drum for months. That will be just as bad as the sub-prime, and will bring on a whole new wave of foreclosures, bankruptcy, and then more bank failures. We have all ready blown half of the TARP $$ bailing out these reckless banks. We are going to need WAY WAY more. Just wait for the NEXT TARP bailout, coming soon to a theater near you after the ALT-A meltdown. Forget the fact this is just all being put off to future generations. They simply do not care!
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Oh yeah, did I mention social security is only about 8 years from the SAME type of melt down? How many trillions to bail that out (most estimates are in the $5-10 trillion range)? Don't worry though, we can print $$ on fix it. Who cares about the future generations, lets just take the myopic approach!

You people don`t listen. They took the deal, with the cuts, and then the Senators wanted it changed. You can rant all you want about $28 an hour, the same as the Japanese plants, but that is not where the cuts would have been. The majority of the people in the country voted for Gore, we didn`t get what we wanted either.

believer GM Janesville is gone regardless if they get the money or not. Sorry to break the news to you bud. Night all.

Going to bed I have a job to go to in the morning. It'll be interesting what happens in the news. I'm sure that the Big 3 are going to get the money they want even though 65% of the public is against it. Most of us were against TARP and it passed. I feel sorry for my grandchildrens' children who will be paying all of this off.

Just remember when they leave as you say you want, they take their wife & children that are all consumers. SO when your restaurants, stores, & movie theatres close we'll see how happy you all are then. Along with the value of your homes dropping cuz there will be plenty of good deals out there. Also the city services that will be cut. It goes on and on!! This has happened in other places, we'll see how things are in this town in a year or 2. Good luck, but of course you don't need it cuz you got all the answers!!

Oh and I do feel sorry for the people who will be affected by this that have been brought down by the Union workers. Those are the people who are hard workers and have my sympathy.

Bitter that my tax dollars are going to bail out people who won't take a wage cut because they can't live on less than $27/hour. Yes I guess I'm bitter. If they would have taken a modest pay cut until the economy rebounded I would have at least respected them. How can they expect for the tax payer to have confidence in the Big 3 becoming profitable again if they don't have the same confidence?

miltownboy I agree with you on the last statement,BY BY to the gravy train.

Anonomouse- It sounds like you just like to hear yourself talk!! With your, I don't dare this and I don't care that!!! Start caring, there are alot of others involved with this and they aren't all the GM people you seem to have such an issue with!! One of the most ridicules statements you made was I don't care if the profits go back to Japan. You sound like a bitter person with an ATTITUDE!!

Interest rate of 5% for first five years, 9% last two years for the "loan". Bondholders get 30 cents on the dollar, shrinking debt to a workable level, just like a bankruptcy. UAW get an equity stake in the companies in exchange for letting go a 10 billion dollar payment into the health care VEBA, further shrinking debt. The only way it wouldn`t work is if car sales don`t rebound in a few years. Foreign companies, some for sure, could lose money for the fiscal year ending March 31. Nobody is selling anything. Prius sales down 50%. Somebody driving a Ford is automatically a UAW member because of a slogan?

anonomouse: The foreign car makers are not asking for your tax dollars because their governments, (Japan, Germany, South Korea), subsidize their auto industries. The least we can do is give ours a chance to turn it around. If the banks that received the $700 billion bailout would start lending again things may change. The banks are a major part of this problem, although the Detroit 3 have made mistakes in the past. The deserve a chance. I don't remember all this negativity when Chrysler got their bailout 30 years ago. Just for the record, I don't work in the auto industry and never have.

I wish people would stop calling it a loan--it's a handout. Under the current organization there is no way that the automakers will have the means to repay this debt. I applaud the minority of Republican senators who voted against the handout. This shouldn't even be a consideration when an overwhelming majority of taxpayers(65%)are against the handout. As far as the destruction of property goes(keying "buy USA" into the side of the Toyota) What brainiac thought that that stunt would advance their cause? If anything it just shows the moral fiber of a typical UAW employee. If I was that woman I would never ever buy another American made auto again. Although she probably wouldn't regardless. I have 2 Toyota autos--they have both been without any issues--I'll never go back.....

It came out today that even if the deal was made, the other Republican Senators were not going to give Corker the authority to seal it. It was an exercise in futility. My American made vehicle was vandalized, I wonder if a Toyota employee did it. At this point, I almost want the Government to turn down the loan. Then when we are in a depression, and more jobs are lost, more wages slashed, we`ll all be happy. One good thing though, the immigrants are not coming in large numbers anymore, some even leaving. Maybe those few Republicans have the answer after all!

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/18272... Another link of the wonderful behavior. Woodsman would be proud.

Some people think that if you don't spend your money on what they think you should they can damage your property I hope they get this guyhttp://www.freep.com/article/20081214/NEWS02/81214030

usaret: RIGHT ON MY FRIEND! Well said!

(by factcheck) "The UAW agreed to all the concessions, only the timing was being discussed at the end. Then the White house said they would intervene before bankruptcy. That killed negotiations because the UAW might get a better deal from them." HELLO?! and who is saying the UAW isn't showing their greed?

They don't care about bashing the American car buyer. They have been brainwashed to think they are the only ones that matter. I think the American public will be the ones to have the final say in this. I've been to many boards besides this one and the general hard-working American public is just tired of the UAW greed.

All Republicans who buy American made cars, stand up and be counted.
All Democrat's who buy American made cars, stand up and be counted.
All Republicans who buy Foreign made cars, stand up and be counted
All Democrat's who buy Foreign made cars, stand up an be counted.
What I'm sick of is the implication that it is unamerican to buy a foreign made vehicle.
Well, I have freedom of choice as to what I want to purchase with my dollars. At present, it's an American made car (Not GM tho). If the product is made in America and is a piece of c---, why should I buy it? If it is foreign made and a piece of c---, I don't buy it either. That goes for all products, not just autos. But, it is my choice as an American on what I want, need or desire to purchase.
Bring back many of the industries that went overseas, produce a quality product and sell at an affordable price, and if I need, want or desire that product, I'll buy it.
High wages are great and excellent benefits are something everyone wants but when it makes production costs too high and profitability non-existant, something has to give and if you own the business, what do you think will give??
You want my support, stop blaming me. You created this situation (not you personally), so now we want to see what you are willing to do or not to do to help solve the problem. And based on a few too many of the comments, I'm having seconds thoughts when it comes to purchasing my next car. Remember, it's a two-way street out there, are you sure you want to keep bashing the American public who you want to buy your vehicles?

"I have a feeling that when all is said and done and some of these UAW workers have to go out in the real world to find a job, how many people would actually hire them with this union im entitled attitude."
That's why they are all pissed the gravy train ran dry and Karma came back to bite them. No more looking down at the average Joe who doesn't work for GM.

Those tax dollars of mine that went to the foreign car companies provided American jobs. I really don't care if the profits go to Japan. Americans are making money and spending it here in the USA. And GM has no profits to go anywhere because the overpaid Union workers and CEO's.

Also annonomouse I've been there and done that-referring to your jobs- so watch who and what you're talking about.

annonomouse you apparently aren't too well informed. Your taxpayer dollars DID go to foreign automakers. The US used your tax dollars to help BUILD foreign auto plants in this country. Its a true fact. Just do the research.

I have a feeling that when all is said and done and some of these UAW workers have to go out in the real world to find a job, how many people would actually hire them with this union im entitled attitude.

The other thing is who cares what the foreign car company workers make? I don't because they aren't asking for my tax dollars. If they did I'd be concerned.

I wonder how long it'll take the Union people to come in and accuse us all of jealousy and bashing for speaking the truth.

Up until a few years ago I worked 3 part time jobs. One paid $7.50 the other paid $10. I worked a lot of hours and was very tired but I did it to keep food on the table and a roof over our heads. I was blessed with a full time job that got me out of that and if I had to cut my hourly pay to keep my job I'd do it. If my job was cut I'd clean toilets if I had to. I'm not to proud to work and I don't need a union messing things up. I didn't always have what I wanted but I was always able to come by what I needed with hard work. Hate to be religious and all but "God only helps those who help themselves"

O I can not live on less than $27.00 an hour what a bunch of crap.WAKE UP go out and find a job or use the transfer quit complaning.

What I don't understand is why we as a nation are going to care about these workers in a few years, they choose not to take a pay cut until the economy recovers to save their jobs and many jobs affected by their decision. Why buy their product at all? What makes them better than anyone else. I work hard for my money too why is it that I'm less than because I don't belong to the UAW. Disband the union and I'm sure in this economy there will be lines of people begging to get these jobs and the $8 hour wage crap is just union Propoganda sorry for the spelling. No one is going to be paid that low of a wage.

They are still going to get the money. They always were. The whole thing was drama to make it look like they cared about the non union taxpayers. The big 3 having trouble would put a lot of people out of work. But the housing and credit crisis started this. Until that is fixed money given or loaned to the Big 3 is as about as intelligent as sending a shipment of cavier to the sinking Titanic. No one can afford to buy right now and loans are hard to come by.

"We would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling Republicans"...

GM Janesville is closing on Dec. 23,2008. Even if the bailout, loan, whatever you want to call it passes this is not going to change.
Jobs bank needed to go. Wages needed to be reduced some not down to the $8 hour I've been hearing. There should be a certain cut off for the retirees but the ones currently getting what they earned should be grandfathered in to where they continue to get them. I really don't think any one wants 80 and 90 year old people kicked to the curb but the retirement benefits for current workers should be worked on until GM becomes profitable. Also I don't think these wage cuts need to be forever just until GM gets back to profitable status. My biggest complaint has been that UAW wants the taxpayers who don't make what the UAW members make to take on this burden with no sympathy that they need to do what needs to be done to get GM back to this profitable stage.

Jobs bank was voted out weeks ago by the union reps. Only Foreign automakers have them now. The UAW agreed to all the concessions, only the timing was being discussed at the end. Then the White house said they would intervene before bankruptcy. That killed negotiations because the UAW might get a better deal from them. Senator Corker said all this in an interview yesterday. and he lead the negotiations. As to Sub pay, Supplemental Unemployment Benefits, the workers money goes into that fund for the bad times. Like pensions and health care,workers take less per hour to help fund those programs. If it was $2 an hor and no jobs bank, the deal would`ve been done in2 minutes. It is health, and pensions that are the only difference between GM and the transplant companies. I don`t know anything about those companies plans, except that since they didn`t arrive here till the late 80`s, they have no retirees to pay for till 2018. That is where $20 of the benefits difference is.

shelby~ what does higher wages and improved lives have to do with each other? People can't be happy unless their making $27/hr? Believe me, I did the $27/hr. thing because I thought it would buy me happiness. It took me close to 10 years to realize that was a lie. People in society are brainwashed by the media into believing all that, I do understand that. One day a person asked me, "does money make you happy"? I said, "yes". This person used this analogy and it hit home with me: If I put a bag of one million dollars in cash to the left of you and your wife/husband/kids to the right of you and said "okay, now pick one right now. Whichever you pick is yours forever, whichever you don't, is gone forever. Which one would you pick? It's a no brainer. I understand people have to pay bills, but, it doesn't take $27/hr to lead a quality, fulfilled life! --- Okay, now the intellects can all have their say and feast on that!

Friendly teaching moment alert :)
Rugs and furniture can be referred to as Oriental. People are Asian. Peace.

Arrg... most of you don't really get it. GM goes down in Jnsv. so does many of your jobs. Lear, LSI not to mention retail stores, restaurants, gas stations etc. Even advertising jobs will be on the line Marley. Can't really blame the average line worker, they were offered and accepted the wages the UAW thought they should have. This is not greed more like marketing.
That being said, today the huge benefits cannot be maintained so the big 3 need to find ways to reduce costs. Lifetime insurance benefits and a couple of dollars per hour seem to fit the bill. Most US employees don't enjoy free, or near free healthcare for life. Drop it and drop wages 2.00.
BTW, I saw four or five oriental persons across the street from GM with a camera set up on tripod taking pics of the GM plant. Perhaps Toyota will bail Janesville out...

I agree with concernedtoo. There are mostly negative people bashing people that do work hard and they sit back on the thrones and ridicule. There are lots of people that have worked there and quit cuz they could not do the work that working on the line entailed. Most of the jobs are really hard on your body parts. Then, of course , there are those that all think they were too good to work in a factory. We all make choices. None of you are slamming the banking industry for their practices. Do you think they aren't really making the big bucks? Just be careful what you ask for...they could be coming for you next!!

Right on Shelby. You said it all.

"Instead of the energy the union bashers spend complaning about UAW wages, they could spend their time trying to get higher pay for themselves-maybe get their own union.

You would think ALL Americans would wish for improved lives and wages for ALL instead of being content with their own lower wages or wishing others paycuts"

Most people (outside of areas with auto plants) think 30.00 an hour is too much for unskilled workers. When you are begging the government to take my tax dollars to save your job, I have a problem with that. I am a SKILLED UNION WORKER and when I get laid off, the government does not come to my rescue. You guys have had it too good too long, now it's time to pay the piper. Look for another job and see how much your skills are really worth...not much. Quit blaming the republicans and Bush for your own mess and accept some responsibility. I do not want my taxes going to keep my unskilled UAW neighbors living like doctors. GREEDY!!!!

Senate talks fell apart because UAW had already agreed to the concession of getting rid of the jobs bank program; but then later that wasn't good enough. The republicans demanded more, they wanted wage and benefit cuts too. Its been all over the news.

Instead of the energy the union bashers spend complaning about UAW wages, they could spend their time trying to get higher pay for themselves-maybe get their own union.

You would think ALL Americans would wish for improved lives and wages for ALL instead of being content with their own lower wages or wishing others paycuts.

i agree with some people on here about certain points i dont follow much of the politics but i have alot of family in the union with in the 3 local companies lear gm and lsi that are losing their jobs and i agree that there was a war that started thats cost billions. we didnt have a hand in putting our troops there! a wage cut might be acceptable to keep the jobs afloat(if reasonable) i dont see why bush can spend money to put troops in iraq to kill our american soldiers why cant he do some good and save the soldiers and the families and economies that are affected by this situaton now??

Watch the movie, Who killed the electric car, and you will learn why Bush won't let the Big 3 fail. He and his oil buddies need Detroit to keep building these big cars so they all can get rich off the the oil. You don't think he wants to save all these workers out of the kindness of his heart.

We can`t know what their reasoning was. I just hope that if they get a loan, or don`t, that the retirees are at least considered. You have 80 and 90 year old people out there that have been promised something after working for 30, 40, 50, years. Are they going to be tossed away like trash? The older ones don`t get the pension that the newly retired do, and they also get a smaller social security. If the Big 3 go under, their health care is gone, except medicare. And, the co-pays on that are going up, along with the medicare supplement ones. Do they deserve to be forgotten?

Ok, change my comment to timing of the concessions. Either way, if they were that close, why didn't the UAW just give in? They are the ones at the mercy, not the other way around. When you beg for money, you don't make the rules. But again, the UAW believes they don't have to follow the rules, but just get the money.

One last time, they had a deal except for a time frame for concessions. The Senator negotiating said they were, in his words, "six minutes from a deal", when the White House torpedoed them. Quit saying the union wouldn`t give to help, they did. Wages are the same for UAW and transplant workers, some even make more than UAW. The difference is in health care, pensions, and retiree benefits. That is where the cuts would be made.

concernedtoo- I would be willing to do almost anything to keep a job right now, i don't know if you read other articles besides those about GM, but overall unemployment is very high right now, and there are many people looking for jobs. So it is called supply and demand. There is a lot of workers looking for work (supply) and not a lot of jobs (demand) therefore the wages offered could be lowered because some work is better than no work. Maybe you only learn these things in college. I dunno.

Nicely said

Personally, I can't understand why the UAW wouldn't give up a little on the wage side right now. When and if the new business plan becomes profitable, then they can renegotiate back what they gave up. To be firm and deny any concessions, which might end up to backfire and sink the company, is risky and borderline entitlement thinking. It makes the UAW come across to the average tax payer as they deserve to be loaned money, even if they were unable to make a profit before. The UAW believes the government should help them even if they have failed to this point. Just crazy. I hope the government gives a loan to every company that is unable to make a profit. We can become the next socialist nation. Russia, here we come.

Sen. Corker wanted sometime in 2009. Some sources said UAW wanted 2011, but Corker said that was not a date the union was insisting on. He gave an interview on CNN and talked about it. He said they were minutes from a deal then the White House made a comment about doing something if the Senate didn`t. That broke up the negotiations. Funny thing, if the Big3 stay in business, they will receive $25 billion for remodeling to "green" autos, the same money that was switched over for the proposed loan. The money was already passed in congress, and to be paid early next year.

factcheck: Do you know the difference in the "start dates" the two were proposing? While I truly feel, with no umbrage towards UAW 95, that unions by and large have no place in modern industrial America, I applaud their strength on one topic: retirees. No retiree should ever have trepidation over losing their EARNED benefits.

UAW agreed to all the concessions, deal broke when they and the Republicans could not agree on a date when it would take effect. Defined pensions already being phased out under last contract. Japanese invented jobs bank already voted out by union. Workers would lose pension and health benefits, probably retirees too. White collar at 65 just has Medicare.

After reading all these comments about Gm it is obvious GM workers haven't a prayer. People say they are not jealous or hateful but read over this as I have and you will see the common theme.
Most people want to see GM fail, not because they think GM is a bad product but because they were lucky to work in a job where they made better than average wages and benefits. They're soloution is that these workers should give up much so that these people can feel rightous. Remember it can be your job next. How low are you willing to go?

lynn12--that is exactly what I was going to point out.
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I'm confused. I thought Gettlefinger had said that the UAW was prepared to make concessions to help out. Did (they) flat out say no to reducing their wage by $2/hr? I can't help but think that the Southern Senators are looking for a deeper cut than $2/hr.
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As far as the suppliers go: Aren't most of them UAW members also? I know Lear is. So, it sounds to me that the UAW is cutting off their nose to save their face. Not smart.

beenthere1- workers on layoff get unemployment which ANY laid off worker gets, and sub pay is from the union, NOT GM, from a fund that is funded by each workers dues. JOBS BANKS employees report to work- they are NOT at home they work where they are needed.

To lynn12: I'm not the person that you have accused me of being. This was a mere example as I know someone who is in this type of situation. She has four kids, none of them older than 4 years old.
And yes, I do have a computer as I was able to get out of GM 4 years ago (thank God!), go back to school, and got a job in health care as a district manager.

getreal scroll down to the first post he made the link in. That link works the last one he posted doesn't

When I tried it, it said no longer available.

Miltownboy thanks for the good link.

You go taysgranny could not of said it better myself.....

#1. Zoom, no I've never worked at the plant but my dad did for 30 years. I should rephrase my statement about changeover. It was model changeover that took a couple weeks, not complete vehicle changeover. My bad!

2. I was union over 20 years. My dad was union 30+ years, till he passed and my Uncle was UAW Local 95 president in the 60's. That being said, the union today is not what it was back then nor how it was intended to be. It was established to protect workers from crooked "bosses", fair treatment, better, safer working conditions, and equal pay for equal work. It has become so far from the original purpose if it wasn't so damaging it would almost be laughable! This mess along with the political mess has all of us, union and nonunion wondering if we'll have our job tomorrow,next week, or next year. No one is safe. Now with this latest "loan" not passing due to the UAW not wanting to give, God help us all. The 'equal work for equal pay' has went in the toilet. The union has been able to get much more money for a lot less work and that in the end is damaging as well. It's not the root cause of all this but it sure the hell didn't help. No one wants to take any kind of responsibility. Keep pointing the fingers at others and the whole time there's 3 fingers pointing back at yourself. Learn to live with your means at $20/hour and maybe there's chance. Now with all this being said, go ahead, bring it on, this ought to be good.

IMO: If you really knew why they need a loan from the Gov you'd fall off your chair. It isn't because of the labor agreement with the UAW. FACT!!
They are in the same boat with the rest of the financial sector~!!
Clue "ITS NOT GOOD TO SHORT AMERICA"
At least and get caught doing it.

Its not the point of getting a truck cheaper, its the point of them not having to take tax payer money to survive.

Get real ~ Just what do you think we did this last contract. We agreed to pay for the cost out of our own pockets to protect the retires,medical cost. Plus a whole lot of other costs. Now if we gave up a ton more you think you'd get a truck any cheaper.????? AHH NO!

69.00 per hour isn't a corrent figure. But I could tell you they make 15k per unit and that Janesville builds the same unit 700.00 bucks cheaper than Texas.. Can you believe that?

Starbase you got me all wrong I dont want to see everyone make $10 that is not enough money for that kind of job, what is upsetting is people like you and the UAW only care about your own job. Do you know how many others you affect, If eveyone would of said ok we will all cut our pay $2 an hour to help get the company back on its feet again so they can pay back this loan and keep our jobs along with all the other jobs we affect suppliers etc. The UAW seem to think they are entitled to more, they have to give us this loan we do not have to bend to get it. I dont think you really understand how the high cost of labor and benefits has affected the success of these companies. Again you only think about your own things "toys" and what ever else you have. How american of you.

The matter is just a simple math problem. GM says its costs are $69 an hour and they need to get to $48. If 30% of their workforce is laid off on average for changeovers or reduction in production. Cut out paying for people who don't work. $69 x 70% = $48.30. Voila! No company can afford to pay people for doing nothing. No other industries when they lay people off continue to pay them. All those in our community are whining but if you are a GM worker why are you complaining still getting 90% of your pay? That is where the UAW needs to give in. If they do that they will almost be there with the concessions needed.

getreal112~ These employees have been there for a yr or so,seems to me you want to see all of the current employee's making 10.00 bucks a hour. I'll tell ya what I'll take 70% less if you do. Oh and no bennies either. But that isn't going to happen. Most of the banks in Janesville would end up with everyones house and cars and all the toys that go with it. Plus a few schools would have to close and teachers out of work also. What else would happen in the county with the super fall out! But hey we would all have a job and no place to live that we could pay for. Or cars to drive either. But you'd be happy!

Maybe new employees and 70% less wow so how much is 95% of rest of the line workers making. Did the math its alot.

getreal112, We have some that are making 70% less in that plant right now working for 10.00 buck per hour.

Who got a 60% pay cut? Im sure not the current employees.

I see we are back "BASHING" the UAW~! I guess a 60% pay cut isn't enough for you people.

Wow miltownboy that video was incredible. You know I really cannot figure out why the UAW has so much power, I sure would hate to have to make a profit out of company that really is run by the union. I really have such mixed feeling about this bailout, I know its a loan but I call it a bailout because they are using tax payer money. Dont like that people are loosing their jobs but at the same time dont like the fact that we all have to pay for them to keep their jobs either when they are not willing to make some sacrifices for it.

momof5, I would agree with you somewhat, but the Big 2.8 also spent millions of dollars to block higher CAFE standards, which effectively extended their dependence on profits from ginormous SUV's. Had they spent those millions of dollars figuring out how to make a profit on small cars, they wouldn't be in the same situation today.

I love it when people say "they should have seen this coming." Back in the day, this plant and Arlington were working 5-10 hour shifts, with some Saturdays and overtime during the week AND still couldn't keep with with demand. Why in the world would any company look to change what is already working so well?

And what has Bush done with NAFTA for the last eight years? Nothing, except listen to the giant sucking sound of jobs leaving the U.S.

That's right Zoom. And then during the '96 elections Clinton and Gore promised to "fix" NAFTA. After the elections that was yet another campaign promise that was swept under the rug.

"THANK THE CLINTONS FOR NAFTA."

Actually, free trade is a tradition Republican goal, and it was George H.W. Bush that initiated NAFTA in 1992. It was ratified by Congress and Clinton in 1993. More Republicans than Democrats voted for the bill.

To bail out the big three is ridiculous in some aspects. They should have seen this coming a long time ago and they didn't restructure their business plan. The bail out would also help the plants in Canada and Mexico. Those are the plants that should be shut down first. Since this is a US Automotive bailout. They need to restructure and become more profitable.

"A changeover at a plant can take place in a matter of weeks, remember."

You have never worked at GM, but somehow you state this as fact? A changeover does not take " a matter of weeks", when you consider the process from start to finish. A whole lot of planning has to happen before anything is done in the factory. The changeover to a new vehicle also costs money, something GM is in short supply of. Spending more money so GM can build vehicles here, with higher labor costs, is silly in the current situation, and does nothing to save GM.

taysgranny: I brought up the same suggestion on a different thread.
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I had always been a Bill Clinton supporter. But, now that NAFTA is coming to roost and we are reaping the "benefits" of it.... I say give him the shafta

THANK THE CLINTONS FOR NAFTA.

Whether any of the Mexico or Canadian plants make the same identical vehicle or not, my point is that if they close those plants, that ship vehicles to the US to sell, then those vehicles could be made in the US plants which are on the chopping block right now, JVL, OH, MI. A changeover at a plant can take place in a matter of weeks, remember. They can be retrofitted to make these vehicles. Bring the jobs back into our country. If more people would pressure lawmakers and get the word out, maybe it would show that everyone is standing together on this issue! How does it make you feel that someone in Mexico or Canada is keeping their job making a "US vehicle" and your in the soup line? COME ON PEOPLE, SPEAK UP somewhere other than this damn board! Go to your congress persons' website, click a link to email them and tell them to do this. If GM doesn't want to do this, then it shows their true GREED and they deserve to go down!

I see none of these Senators and people in the positions of deciding who gets help and who doesn't is willing to give up any of their wages or perks that they have (and there are plenty) but they are ready to put unreasonable requests on the people working for a living. Most of them, as we know, have a grudge against the UAW for not supporting them. It awful that they would rather take the entire country down than to be reasonable and look at the whole picture, especially after they gave money to the financial group with no strings attached. If you think the entire country's economy would not fall like a house of cards, think again!

Kioa, you are exactly right on Washington saving them. Only now, the big 3 won't have to pay anything back and there won't be the restrictions that Washington would have insisted on.

About the mexico plant-it hasn't made the same GM vehicles as Janesville since 2006. After Dec.23 the only plant making Suburbans and Tahoes will be Arlington, Texas.

This thing is GOING to happen, don't be duped by the smoke screen. All they do is draw up a BIGGER bill, more pages, MORE pork give outs (the bill voted down was LOADED with pork, but obviously not enough). It will be the same as the TARP bailout. Voted down on the 1st try, then they add some more give aways ($150 BILLION in PORK in the TARP bill) and then it magically passes!
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This is how things work on the hill today. Once enough pork is added on, it will get the needed votes, and just keep adding MORE on to the national debt, which is all ready over $10 TRILLION! What do they care though? Just put that problem of for future generations.
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Trust me when I say EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE (auto's, state governments, airlines, retailers, techs, ext ext) will be getting bailed out! I have been saying this ever since they came up with the TARP bailout sham. Just watch and you will see. It is the culture we now live by.

As far as closing the plants in Mexico and Canada, that will not happen because GM does not want to do it and they would never agree to do it. You see, they don't have to do it because they are going to get what they want. The sad part is that they will probably get a better deal from Bush than the one that the Senate killed, that meaning that the taxpayer will get a worse deal. Oh, and by the way, I just bought a GM car today, so don't accuse me of hating GM. I just don't like the taxpayer position in the deal that is being proposed.

George Bush just might be the one who saves the UAW's Butt. Isnt it ironic that a president that no UAW member would vote for might be the one to save your collective rear end!

I have no comment.

Right on Taysgranny you got the right idea, bring the jobs back here have the union cut wages and benefits some, and alot of jobs will be saved, the sad part is the UAW would never agree to anything like this.

Ok, I'm not a GM worker, but did lose my automotive related job as a result of lay offs a few years ago. Went to school for 2 years, received a degree and am currently working in a job completely unrelated to automotive industry and still hoping my job will hang in there and weather the storm, so to speak. You can call me stupid, ignorant, etc, but I have to ask a question. With all the threats of bankruptcy, closings, cutbacks etc. with GM & Ford, it seems everyone (and I do mean everyone!) has an idea or opinion. In all I have read I've yet to see this suggestion and I want to know if it's just me and I'm an idiot or does this make sense to any of you. Why can't one of the requirements for GM & Ford to follow through with before any money is offered to them be to close their Mexico & Canadian plants that ship finished vehicles back into the US for sale? Would that not save some US jobs (Silao Mexico makes the same vehicles Janesville makes), free up some money for GM & Ford to put back into their companies? I know they make much less in those countries, and YES, UAW would have to make a concession also, but close the places out of our country before cutting here at home. Pepsi recently did this during a time of needed layoffs, they laid off at their Mexico plants. Why hasn't this been proposed to them??? And yes, I do believe the UAW needs to give a bit. Not to the $8 you are talking about, but within reason. I worked over 2 decades at the same place starting at $6/hr in early 80's and ended at $17/ hr. Over the years we raised 3 kids, had a 3 bdrm. ranch, 2 cars, boat,hot tub, snowmobiles, motorcycles and summer vacations including a summer cabin. Still do and yes, you can live on this and enjoy life! We don't have to show off by driving the fanciest gas guzzler or wearing the latest Tommy gear, just live life and enjoy it. But please, getting back to my question,is my suggestion real out of line? Shouldn't plants making our vehicles out of our country and sending them back to our country to sell for a much greater profit, I will add, be closed first?

I'm not saying that the things you describe never happened. BUT... if you knew it happened and never filed it up the ranks, you are just as guilty as them.
_______
I did say something, I wasn't part of the Union and I was told to keep my mouth shut or get fired.

Also Bush plans on giving all you GM'ers the money through TARP.

I'm also sure other companies have had these types of workers. I'm not doubting that. I also know I saw a lot of hard workers at the plant too. But the topic isn't about what is happening at other factories. Other factories aren't under the scrutiny because they aren't asking for tax payer money.

I am not a UAW member. This is not about UAW wages either. This is about union busting bring down the voice for american workers, shrinking the middle class. For people that say unions are a thing of the past, if unions leave alot of jobs will be affected. You may not see it but unions help keep wages up for everyone. Do you really think the non union auto makers will keep the same wages or health care for its workers if the uaw leaves. No! The stay close in wages now so if it ever happens they have the upper hand on there workers. How come Aig big shots were not asked to take a pay cut oh wait maybe because they are in the right wingers pockets. When unions are gone give it 20 years and people will began to realize after being taken advantage of we will need a labor movement again. A proud building trades union member and anyone that feels I am over paid cause I am a union member I invite you to come to work with me one day.

No my dad didn't work at the plant. Neither did my mom, brothers, grandparents etc. And what I know of at the plant I saw with my own two eyes. No I didn't work for GM but I did work AT GM. If times have changed great. I noted the year so you all would know it was a long time ago.

Are you saying that

anonomouse

Is a plant brat!!! OMG!

anonoumouse: shut up already. I'm so impressed that you knew the goings on at the plant back in 95. Wow. Don't know about anyone else, but I enjoy it when my "sources" have 13 year old CRAP to tell me. I'm pretty sure Honda, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, yadda yadda yadda all have the same ills to deal with.
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I'm not saying that the things you describe never happened. BUT... if you knew it happened and never filed it up the ranks, you are just as guilty as them.
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Didn't your dad work at the plant?

Marleymaniac~ Great job. So you do see the cause and effect of what is about to happen.

starbase7

No I did not know that... But I designed the logo for Carsoup.com.

Marleymaniac~ did you know that 1/4 of all advertising comes from the auto sector. Interesting little fact most here wouldn't know.

starbase7

Nope...not by a long shot.

All I know is I love my Honda Civic - 175k and still going strong - wish I could say the same about the Tahoe we just gave to the boys ranch....

Actually I have a job that pays better then the auto worker. I have no problems with factory workers at all its the arrogance that they are entitled to more than other factory workers because of the UAW beleive me your union dues do not amount to the amount you are overpaid. I made the comment about college because you said all you seen from college is 4 years of getting drunk which would make people think you did like college because of your view of it.

the anti american left wing loons will be wallowing in poverty of their own when the us auto industry goes down. it is a fact that the us makes a good competitive product that the anti americans won't buy no matter what. still, the us market goes to americans by what? 50 or 55%. the problem is not quality but the impression that the us worker makes too much money (its called a living wage). lets see, plumbers, 89$/hr. carpenters, $50/per hour, elcctricians, $65/hr. then doctors, dentists, lawyers (those thieves) who is protesting that they all cut their fees?. the biggest complainers till seem to be the cry babies whose applications were overlooked by personal at gm. they continue to wallow in the fact that gm employees will fall to their own just above poverty income level.

Marleymaniac~ LMAO you must make a ton of cash you sold me! LOL

starbase7

Yeah I thought that was pretty funny too. It took a while to come up with it. I work in Advertising.

Marleymaniac~ Good one LMAO! I love science.
But I love marketing more.

Get Real think as you wish. My children are very educated as I am also. You don't have a job like the auto worker. But your willing to see them all to the poor house. Even the ones who are on a fixed income. Remember this my friend. We paid into those funds your so ready to take away from us. Not you or anyone else. Most of the comments here are very out of line and you call me uneducated. I paid into the fund that pays me if I'm out of work as well as the pension funds. Your very liberal with my money. I took less for alot of yrs to pay into those funds that I may have something later in life. Now that I'm almost there. You would steal that too.

starebase7

I'm a nuclear physicist. I attended the University of New Mexico where I earned my bachelor's degree in math and science in 1988, my master's in physics in 1993 and my Ph.D in physics in 2001. I joined the physics staff of Los Alamos National Laboratory in 2002. My work is in the alternative use of laser, electron and ion beams to heat thermonuclear plasmas for use as alternative energy sources.

So you and I have something in common... I work with space particles and you have a cool log-in name (starbase7).

usaret is correct. The more I read the more I understand how our country got in this mess. I would encourage the foriegn product lovers to concider a move there. Good Luck

Starbase you are clearly not an educated person if that is what your view of college is, I bet you did not encourage your children to get educated either. Also hunt and fish we all know what new hires make that is not the problem its the ones who are not new hires and all the people who are retired that have run them out of business.

usaret I agree,the problems are far more reaching than General Motors and the others. The wallstreet gang has done far more damage than the Auto sector and the jobs. What I want to know is,just where did they go with a trillion bucks that all of us have to pay for??

Hate to say this but this blog should be shut down. All it has turned into now is just damn sarcastic meaness that accomplishes nothing.-
I know this is a good place to air out your problems with what is going on, but peoples comments are becomming down right insulting and add nothing to resolving the problem.
There has been some informative comments but they've been lost in the bitterness that now seems to prevale in this area.

Get Real I hope your first in line. What I saw of college was a bunch of drunk people showing the rest of the world they can party for 4 yrs. Not all grant you but just enough to make it interesting. Oh by the way I have what I need to move on. I'll take 60% less on my pay. But you can't and won't.

Starbase I said they had their hand out not that it was a hand out. Learn to read and comprehend and stop twisting word.

Getreal- get educated. GM new hires make $14. an hour.

anonomouse~ Your correct, but its not a hand out. You have nothing to say about the banks that stole a trillion bucks? Congress ran right over and handed them the cash without your vote at all. Nothing to say>>??? And you balk at a few billion. I'd say you have serious problems with the thinking. LOL

Marley- Just what line of work are you employed? The rest of us may have a comment.

Star base the rest of american line workers in factories do start at $14 an hour if they are sick they dont get fired unless they abuse it. If you want to make more money you go to college that is how it works. UAW workers are over paid that is why they cant make a quality product, they have to make cuts somewhere so they made cheap crap. It was only a matter of time before people caught on and quit buying the product.

Starbase you made your choice about work, I made mine. My choice doesn't have its hand out for tax payer money.

Starbase is not out of a job.

huntnfish

I'm all for buying, selling and praising all that is America...but if we didn't make such crappy stuff, it wouldn't be so difficult to do.

Wait... we do make great fattening fast food. Janesville can attest to that.

anonomouse ahh I'm correct!! You want everyone at your standard of living! Sorry I made choices just like you did. I will defend my choices. You made the choice to buy the product you drive and they pay more. But some here don't see the effect of that. Yes people would line up for that 14.00 bucks a hour. And that line will continue to move every day.
I hope all of you are first in line for that job. When you get that job you'll be very surprised. Trust me,most won't work very long. Oh and don't miss a day sick or not. You won't have your job. Don't believe it, try it and find out. All of that and more for 14 bucks a hour. Go for it.

starbase you really dont get it, you seem to feel your more entitled than the rest of american workers. Because of this kind of attitude you will be out of a job not real smart.

The foreign junk is high quality than the GM stuff so you aren't saying much for your product.

duh! Toyota and Honda have no retirees. GM has 3 for every active worker, that is why the benefits and health care are so high. Maybe those lousy foreign cheap junk transplants arent asking for help today, but wait a few years

VernO

Awesome comment! LOL

Did you guys know starbase7 has been at this since 3:47. I would take it easy on him. Obviously he's out of work and is contemplating selling his Wii.

This is not just UAW and GM issues. The auto industry is directly attached to 3,000,000 jobs in this country! Some union many non-union. With the George Bush economic disaster devastating this economy the US jobs market would crumble.This country could not absorb that amount of un-employment. This number would effect every man, woman and child in America. If you think your dept. wouldn't be affected think again! The bottom line is EVERYONE needs to support all american industry, textile, steel, ag, appliance, even auto! It's the right thing to do. Good Americans take
care of America.

Starbase if I made what you made I'd take the same cut to keep my job

Get Real, When is right to place a price on what people make. I really don't care what your wages are. But I'll take a 60% pay cut if you do.

Selfish UAW behavior. The economy is bad right now but it will recover eventually. UAW doesn't want to cut down until that recovery happens.

Question? What is going to happen to NASCAR? Will Ford end up racing itself? Take your time...

I'm no GM hater but this story sort of ticked me off the wrong way. Sheridan needs to get his head out of his ass. Just because Toyota pays about $30/hr doesn't mean UAW GM should be at the same wage. Get over it... this is a cut throat business. Do you see Toyota standing in line asking for a bail out? Heck no... simple solution is to worry about your own line of business. Don't try to compare your businees with others. Greed is just dragging UAW/GM down to the ground. I can tell you right now if Janesville had the option to stay open by changing the pay rate to $14-$20/hour and revamped benefits, I'll bet anybody here that the employment office will be lined up with people on Delevan drive all the way out to highway 14. If you're going to be pissed off because of a wage cut, then by all means... nobody is stopping you to find another job. I know a wage cut means changing your lifestyle but come to think of it... there's no such thing as job security anymore these days whether you're union worker, PH.D., college grad, sport icon, etc. Think of your family... not greed.

If you know you affect to many people and so many jobs why all the greed, Why not agree to a little less to help everyone not just yourself?

Get real is another one who thinks the Auto market has no effect on what happens with the middle class. Another one of the misery loves company types. 7 million jobs in the can all at the same time will have far reaching effects. That doesn't include the supporting jobs to the 7. I love the way people here think. Keep bashing, your shovel will dig the hole that much deeper.

60% percent less sounds about the going rate for a line worker in a factory. Welcome to America.

Oh by the way anyone thinking about a job with General Motors after this is done. Remember you'll be working for 60% less with NO bennies
That is part of the new contract. Hows that for a pay cut? Can you do that???

If it meant a choice between starving or not I'd do it.

There goes that GM arrogance again thinking the whole country revolves around if they exist or not, the UAW did a nice job on brain washing these people that is for sure. Also loose everthing if you dont work for GM maybe you were living beyond your means. Keep a car for 10 years that would cut down on expenses, ooops forgot you probebly own a GM product they dont last 10 years.

You'd take a 1/3rd pay cut? I bet not!

I'd take a paycut if needed. And the wage GM workers would make would have been more in line with the average tax payer the Big 3 are begging for money from.

anonomouse~ I see you have no understanding of the trickle down effect. I don't care if your not taking a raise. It's your pay cut you'll love. NOT! Also don't matter what market your in you'll feel the effects of the TRICKLE!

GM employee's don't even buy them. Just go look in the parking lot.

History101 you are going to love your Accord.

When GM gets done alienating itself, they will lose many customers. Myself included. After 18 GM cars and trucks, my next car is an Accord. Both my children traded the new GM cars I bought them after college in favor of a Honda and Toyota. My opinion is that GM will not recover no matter how much help they get.

Starbase-
You don't know me but I did forgo getting a raise as did everyone in my department at work. We talked about it and as a group we decided to do it so no one would get laid off.
Also my work has NOTHING to do with the auto industry. I know the UAW in you says that everything is tied to the auto industry but it's not.

disgruntled UAW GM employee? No that is not the case. You don't see the big picture. Matter fact I'll be just fine. Your suggestion that the auto worker take less,is funny. Take less and lose everything but have a job. That is something to get up every morning for. It works both ways. I figure if GM goes down we go down if we go down,your not to far behind. See we can use that same misery loves company theme also. I'm sure you'll step right up and ask for your pay cut soon.

Hey...did you guys read that they arrested some UAW workers in Whitewater for drugs. Wow you just can catch a break.

Oh and since GM products are so great will one of you come down here and get the Blue 2007 Suburban that broke down in front of my house out of here its becoming an eye sore.

Please explain the point of the UNION. Aren't their enough labor laws, non profits, and such looking out for the employees?

If the bus is driven by a UAW worker I prefer to walk thank you.

Marleymaniac~ Well put! The American public sold out! No good jobs 14-16 bucks a hour at best. Remember the less the middle class makes the less the upper crust can take. So the Lawyer with the 200.00 per hour fee will take less. The Doctor with the 180.00 office visit will take less. All services will make less,that works. Until it's your turn,oh and it will come....

Starbase did you even read about where the parts come from on American cars or are you a disgruntled UAW GM employee? No I moved out of Rock County and based on some of the posts on this site I'm sure glad I did. I prefer to have NON UAW people who have intelligent things to say living by me and not people who drank the GM kool-aid. I feel for the hardworkers who are out of work but jobs could have been saved if they took a pay cut. I know if I was given the choice of no job or making less I'd be upset but I'd choose to make less and still work.

anonomouse, the bus is waiting.

anonomouse I truly hope your not from the Rock County area,if you are I do hope you have have extra cash for the tax base living here. We the overpaid UAW workers,won't be paying them anymore. So to keep your standard of living you and your Honda can make up the difference.

starbase7

anonomouse is right...Free Country. My toyota was made here too and I praise their workers' sense of quality. What kind of TV do you own? Do you have an iPod? ... where were they made? Sheboygan WI?

Star I see the UAW brainwashing worked for you.

Fewer than half of the parts on some Big Three vehicles are made in the U.S.
------
What makes a car American?
Looking at a Ford Fusion? It is assembled in Mexico. The Chrysler 300C is assembled in Canada, but its transmission is from Indiana; the brand's V-8 engine is made in Mexico. Engines in the Chevrolet Equinox sport utility vehicle are from China.
------
rest of story here http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/america...
____
Educate yourself about where your car and its parts are made before you make yourself look like an uneducated person.

anonomouse~Like I said I'm sure Japan loves your support! You would be foolish to think the profits off that car you drive are part of your tax base. All the parts come from Japan. All the profits go back to Japan! Your a true American!

My Honda was built here in the USA. Can you say the same for all GM products? And I worry more about my personal economy than a bunch of overpaid whiners. My car gets better gas mileage, has a better resale value and hasn't been in the shop except for an oil change. My husbands American Company car has been in for defects and recalls. His vehicle will be replaced by a Honda. GM and the other 2 didn't keep up and can't compete. We live in a free country and if a business can't compete they close.

anonomouse~ 50 plus yrs ago our fathers fought for the rights for us to even be here at this very moment. Many gave their lives for our rights for a better life. You keep right on driving that Honda,made by the very ones that tried to take those rights away. I'm sure Japan loves your support.

And the GM bashers would do the work if it is what is needed to have an income. We aren't too proud to work and I'm sure we wouldn't whine about the work.

And by the way...I drive a Toyota, it runs great and has over 170,000 miles. The only GM truck that has lasted that long is the one in the GM museum...and I bet it won't start.

GM should build short buses to some of these GM/UAW bashers to their job making $6.00 an hour.

momof5

"the termination of a LONG time hard-working (Coke Dealing) employee."

I feel for anyone who has lost their job... but maybe instead of spending so much time defending a sinking company, you should start contacting your "Out of work GM buddies" and help them write their resumes. The world needs ditch diggers too....but not at $35/hr.

BTW my Honda is worth more than I owe on it. Resale value is higher. Can you say the same about a GM car?

Nope, I don't work for Honda. Yes all work places have dirty employees. GM just has more than their fair share and they are protected by the UAW.

UAW You Reep What you Sow

anounomouse: unless you work at a Honda plant, your comment is completely ignorant. I don't care if it is a Burger King, GM Janesville, Tiffany's or Honda in Georgia: they all hire humans which means ALL employers are subject to a few with poor work ethics and shady habits. If you take how many GM at one point employed in Janesville (4,000 let's say) and you figure 100 of them were beer drinkin', pot smokin', crock pot stirrin', magazine readin' baffoons--I'd say GM Janesville had a pretty good workforce then. {100/4000= 4%)
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"You" people can comment how many times the Union saved "Joe" from being fired after he was drinking on company property or what have you. But, let us not forget the drug bust, OFF of GM property (waaayyyy off) that resulted in the termination of a LONG time hard-working employee. If I remember correctly, the Union "tried" (not very hard, mind you) to keep GM from firing him to no avail. The roads of unjust and corruption are not one way streets navigated soley by the UAW.

ok the first comment the staff didnt like. So here it is again. My heart goes out for the families and their families.

my 14 yr old said something " where in the constitution does it say We the businesses, she thought it said We the people.."

so help the families before the businesses think about it

It might not be the same place but it has a tarnished reputation that it has done nothing to improve.

I suggest everyone who thinks they know the General Motors Janesville Assembly of today,think again. It's not the same place! But of course you'll keep beating that old drum because that is all you have to hang your hat on.

all i have to say is hang on!

Thanks for the reply Star.
I wasn't sure if they kept their jobs.

anonomouse none,all where given their walking papers. 25 yrs ago GM and Today GM 2 different cats.

I have heard so many times that people are jealous of GM workers and if they go down there will be no more middle class. Part of the problem is this arrogance, noone is jealous of GM workers and hate to break it to anyone who thinks so, there are other middle class people in this country who do not work for the big 3. I think if there was not this kind of arrogance and maybe if they said we will cut our pay a few dollars per hour not just for GM but for all the companies we affect. The people in this country would be crazy for them, everyone would be saying buy american keep them going. There is a sense of entitlement like we are to important to go down they have to bail us out. A big attitude adjustment would go a longgggg way.

I also remember going out to that bar for lunch (just off the GM grounds) and seeing how some 50 - 80 workers file in behind me, grab their shots and beer chaser (that the owners would set up in advance for the regulars), down those in a matter of seconds and then settle down and eat their burger and fries.

I remember the precision and coordination of that daily routine and wondered how any worker could build a quality car after that...oh wait, they didn't.

this is to cjjs35.
FYI- Janesville did'nt hire new workers @ $14 an hour because they were continually eliminating workers, and they are closing. However, they did hire maintenance workers for $10 an hour. GM wide, there have been over 1500 new hires hired at various plants for the $14 an hour wage. If you had searched the internet, you would know this!

I didn't remember the drug busts. I wonder how many of them continued to work on the line protected by the union.

The drug bust happened back in the late 80's to early 90's...a huge coke raid. I wasn't living in Janesville at the time but heard it on the national news. I remember thinking of how proud I was of my home town and General Motors. Nothing like have a corrupt plant, a white buffalo birth and a huge KKK rally all in the area of Rock County.

to chp16a95
you talk about your $8, being single, and raising kids-some single mothers work two jobs and try to get a BETTER job.
p.s. you seem to still afford a computer and the internet.

There are some hard workers down there and for those I feel bad that they are losing their jobs. I think the Union should have agreed to cut wages in this economy. But on the other hand there are more than a few bad seeds that the union has protected through out the years. Seeing these people with bad work ethics was what turned me away from GM. I proudly drive a Honda.

I also remember the smell of pot smoke but the union wouldn't let the people get busted. This was in 95 I don't know about GM ever getting busted for drugs.

I used to work for GM in Janesville (till I left for college) and I remember the days of how I didn't have to really do my job because the union had my back. What an easy life I had and made great money. I remember seeing numerous workers laying on the carpet rolls each morning reading the paper and not doing their work till they felt like it. I remember quite a few employees drinking on the job and having all kinds of booze in their lockers. We all probably remember the huge drug bust that happened on the grounds. All of this represents the kind of worker GM employs, the crappy cars they make and the biggest bunch of whiners making somewhere in the range of $70k to put on tires...IF they even do their jobs when working.

I say the union, the workers and management are the blame and I can't wait to see what the city will do with the land when the company folds. Maybe a new landfill for all the surplus cars that won't sell.

National health care will save money in the long run. Insured people now pay less for services than uninsured. Get the insurance companies out of the way and you immediately save 30% administrative cost. You,, and your employer are already paying taxes for Medicare. More preventative medicine will save more money. It`s coming.

The fridges weren't allowed back in 95 when I saw them. The fridges were hidden in the back behind some tool stuff.

The only fridges there now are in team rooms. All personal things (microwaves, cookers, etc..) are no longer allowed or allowed on a short term basis, such as for area feeds.

I can only comment about what I`ve seen and heard in Janesville. Consumers are fearful of the economy, and the lack of credit. Transplant sales are down as well. Overall sales are down 37% for the industry. Great time to buy if you know your manufacturer will be there for warrantys and parts.

factcheck- national health care will not cost you less. Where do you think they companies (hospitals) will get the money from... Its called taxes. Your taxes will go way up to have health care. Either way you slice you will pay, and probably more, because more people will use health care, especially the unemployed, because they won't have to pay for it.
.
It already makes me sick people that run to the Emergency Room for a flu, all because they have Medicade. Think before you make some idiotic statement. Everyone pays for stuff, whether it is individually or as a whole through taxes. You never get something for nothing.

I have a little off topic question here.
Do they still have the fridge stocked with beer in Fork Truck Repair Area?

Bucky, I hate to burst your bubble, but we really do not have a job bank here. People are not sitting around doing nothing, they are all on the floor working. You obviously don't work there, so you wouldn't know that. But there you have it, we have no job bank of people sitting around "drinking coffee and playing cards". If you are still in the plant you are working. You do know that if you are laid-off you are not in the "jobs bank" right?

Factcheck: And what has it accomplished in all those 50 plus years? With all this so called jealousy and envy, look where we're at.
Also, is it just the Janesville residents that are jealous or is it the same at all the various auto plants? Hate to think it is just a local jealousy/envy.
Everybody is due a decent wage and benefit but when the consumer no longer wants your product, something/someone has got to give a little bit or that is all that will be left if your lucky.

ivocal - Ya, it's a place for a reality check which many people obviously need. Like I said, not everyone is bashing the worker. It's the idiots in charge of them.

GM has no jobs bank at the janesville plant???????? Maybe you've spent so much time there you've lost touch with reality!

spark, I have read the comments and LISTENED very closely to a lot of discussion in more intelligent venues than this. Maybe you have not read all the comments here. Many of the conversations have directly criticized the workers for greed,etc. I realize that this is not the place for thoughtful, higher level discussions. My mistake.

Our money built the Japanese auto companies after WW11, our government still lets them dump cars here for less than the actual cost in Japan. We can`t compete in their home market because of high tariffs. Our rice is safer and cheaper, but they protect their farmers, and don`t allow us to import it.

The actual problem is lack of credit because of the home mortgage mess. If people were able to buy cars, the Big3 would have shown a profit by 2010 or so. Ford still says they can, and they have the same contracts as GM. They had the foresight to borrow big last year, and have the cash on hand. Everybody, UAW, GM, U.S. government, helped make this mess.

Hey buckyboy, FYI, we don't have a jobs bank here in Janesville. So in answer to your question, no, I'm not sitting in a job bank, and no I'm not drinking coffee. Actually, I can't stand coffee.

AND BY THE WAY... TO ALL OF YOU THAT KEEP SAYING PEOPLE ARE BLAMING THE WORKERS? READ A LITTLE CLOSER! PEOPLE AREN'T BLAMING THE WORKERS. THEY'RE BLAMING THE UNION AND MANAGEMENT. BUT YOU KEEP DEFENDING THEM WHICH MAKES YOU SOUND COMPLETELY IGNORANT TO THE ACTUAL PROBLEMS.

Cotton Joe ~ Our Government is broke~!! They just can't keep printing money just because they have the press~~!!!! So if the Government is broke that means we are all broke~!! So yes they need to lose their perks also! Plus they didn't do their jobs in the first place~!!

factcheck- I think you personally need a factcheck. People aren't jealous of GM workers. They're simply sick of their bitching and moaning about everything and then when it comes down to the desperation, they can't even admit their own union and company is at fault. God forbid there's any accountability from their own stupid mistakes.

Why are the failures and problems of the US auto industry always blamed on the workers? Convenient for those who will not suffer. Yes they made good money for the work but not ridiculous for today's economy. The management of those companies is responsible for it because of lack of insight, planning and forsight. Did we blame all the workers in the financial industry who are and will be laid off? A large portion of them made 6 digit salaries and had fantastic benefits. Many of them were selling us bad "products". Those at the top are responsible and should pay the price. The attitudes I hear here are part of what is wrong with this country.

What is out of line? The UAW gave up more pay to get pensions and health care. As is looks now, they should have taken the money instead of the benefits. Can you imagine the screaming if they were paid $28 an hour, $6 an hour to go to health care, and whatever it costs for a pension? Then they would have been making this mythical figure of $70 an hour.

Did Mike Sheridan really say, "When some of these senators who have been criticizing this agree to take their wage cuts, we'll take ours"? With all due respect, Mike, what kind of convoluted logic is that? The senators don't need to take a pay cut to save their jobs. Apparently the GM employees do.

Most of you here don't get it. Make the employee take a huge wage cut and reduce his standard of living and more than likely go BK themselves. All for the right to work for something you will never have. Oh yeah,that is what we all should do. Save the company and put yourself in the poor house,oh don't worry at least you have a job that won't pay the bills!! SMART! General Motors used "we are all in this together" for years,so I guess our point is we go down, they are going with us!!

usaret, you might not be jealous, or envious, but after 50 years of following letters to the Gazette, talking to people, and reading these blogs, there are plenty of people in this town that are.

factcheck - Come one man. You know the UAW is out of line with some of this.

The UAW did agree to concessions, but the Senators wanted it to happen very quickly. That was the sticking point.

1. I have never been jealous of the GM workers.
2. I have never been envious of the the GM workers.
So for those who lead off with such statements-get a life. It tells me you are the ones with a problem of self esteem and worth.
Now then, you are talking about your jobs and you are the ones who should be hoping and praying that the very people who you bitch against will support you. Why should I care what happens to you if you think I'm jealous or envious of you?
I want the company you work for to survive. Don't you? Well, what are you willing to do to see that it does survive? From many of the comments--not too much.
It is survival of the fittist and right now the big 3 are on death's doorstep. There is no miracle cure out there. You can put it on all the IV's (bailouts) but at best, it's only a temporary fix. The real cure, if one is to be found, will be a hard pill to swallow.
So, GM, UAW and employees, start working together to insure survival otherwise, go home, lock the doors and cry in your beer (if that is what you drink). The American taxpayer (yes, you are one) can only afford to do so much before there is nothing left for anyone.
Thank you to those who made the Cars/Trucks we drive but if you want to continue then start making the needed decisions within the company, the union and the employee.

It wasn`t the $28 an hour they wanted to take. It was the health care, and pension benefits. Any of you buying your own health insurance knows the cost of that. $12,000 for a family policy, and you still pay the $130 office call. When we finally get national health insurance, that burden will be eased for employers.

I have been following this controversial subject and came to the conclusion that the UAW should have conceded to wage concessions. Sheridan stated, “When some of these senators who have been criticizing this agree to take their wage cuts, we'll take ours.” Unfortunately those senators are not begging for a bail out and are not at risk of losing their jobs. Strictly by the employee wages that are posted in this article, it is no wonder why Toyota is not in the same predicament as GM.

I understand that line work is probably difficult, but I also believe that an average wage, according to the article, for a UAW laborer making $29.78/hr with benefits totaling $69/hr. is a little much. For example, I work in a legal profession and have a B.S., a military background, and have worked for the same organization for seven years and currently make $20.85/hr. Of course I would like to make more; however, I am fortunate for what I do make. The point is that the UAW employees could stand to work for less, decreasing overhead, and make a profit for GM. If the union would have negotiated, this bail out could have been possible. Now they take a chance for GM to go bankrupt. Be prepared to discard the old wage schedule, benefits, or lose countless jobs if that happens. Not a good public relation tactic for those who purchase GM vehicles.

It seems that just a few days ago the UAW said that they were willing to offer concessions. When the time came to deliver, they reneged. Now they say "when these Senators take a pay cut we'll take ours". They'll be taking their pay cuts much sooner than they think when GM files its bankruptcy papers. I guess they think that if they can hold out until Obama takes office then all that campaign money they contributed through their dues will payoff with a "no strings attached" bailout. Now that's change we can believe in!

This arguing at who's at fault reminds me of work. The minute your company wants to cut spending and makes you try to do the job of two people, who do the employees blame and show anger to? Each other! Not who is responsible for all of the anger, depression, stress, etc. BIG MONEY! They need to make more and you need to make less.

Let's trim the fat from the top and work down. That would save millions of dollars. And I'm not only talking about the auto industry.

Now this takes the cake IMO: The Senate and it's leader of the banking comm,squares off against the UAW!! Isn't the senator in charge of what goes on with the SEC and banking? They let those banks and brokers steal a TRILLION bucks and rush right in to hand over the cash!! But the Auto companies come to the plate and are just trashed by the same guys who left the gate open for thoses to steal trillions? Ahh,America we have a serious problem.

And in regards to what the Republicans in congress are doing now, is they want to keep us down and not be able to make a living wage. That was always their mentality. Keep the poor, poor and the rich, rich and screw the middle class.

Boy, I wish that the government would have really discussed and looked at the bailout they gave to the banks half as much as they are about the auto industry. Maybe we wouldn't have these problems that we are having with the banks now after the bailout with our tax money. We should own the banks with the amount of tax money we gave. Yet, they are still screwing us even after the bailout.

The GM people with the US versus THEM mentality are making the people from the plant that actually have a clue look bad! There's many opinions of the workers and of the plant. By taking the higher than thou approach, it just seals the deal as to the outside worlds opinions of the few who feel the world owes them a $27 / hr job because they're entitled to it.

IM NOT IN DENIAL IM OPTIMISTIC. ITS NOT ALL DOOM AND GLOOM. IF YOUR OLD ENOUGH YOUVE BEEN HERE BEFORE. THINGS WILL EVENTUALLY GET BETTER.TRY TO HAVE A POSITIVE ATTITUDE AND STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP OVER THINGS YOU HAVE LITTLE OR NO CONTROL OVER.

shorty - you are missing the point to most of the posts. They had their chance and were not willing to do some smart negotiating to at least make a sound case to all of this. The UAW is a problem. If you are in such financial disaster than why the hell would you not be willing to negotiate and take what you can get for now? I don't wish anyone to lose their job. EVER!! But I'm beyond sick and tired of all the #$#$@ that is happening and greed.

Some of you ignoramices (?) sound like the little kid that got sent to time out. Please people wake up!!! Smarterthanyou... you better hope you have an idispensible job and never have to worry about if you have that position in the am. Get a life people, I truly don't understand how you can be so petty. Not ALL that work there are ungrateful. Pay attention to the 20th of this month as "all those ungrateful GM people" gather to do the EAP Food drive. Smarterthanyou...wouldn't surpise me one bit if your name was on that list. You should be real proud of yourself. Lets hope that you ignorant one's don't have any small children that you are teaching these ehtics!!! And NO I am not an employee, just concerned about my own future.

It seems that everyone is blaming the autoworkers and UAW for this mess. What about the upper management of the Big 3 and their "decision making" skills.

Consider that Janesville has been making SUV's - high priced gas guzzlers. Out of reach for many of us "working folks", especially if we live within our means.

I drive what many call a "base" vehicle, albeit an older one. It has a standard transmission, AM/FM radio, windows that open when I roll them down, and door locks that engage when I push them down with my very own fingers. There are no cup holders or heated seats. It gets very good gas mileage, does not burn oil, and preventative maintenance keeps it running good.

The Big 3 could still make these types of vehicles, but their management seems to believe that we cannot live without individual temperature controls, DVD players and cup holders.

Worse yet, evidently the American public seems to buy into that. How many of you gasped at the idea of rolling down a window? Shame on you! Go back to basics, and we'll survive this.

And it would get you right where you're at today. That is the point you're all missing. Denial, major denial.

IF THATS TRUE, I WOULD FORM A UNION AND HELP MY FELLOW EMPLOYEES.

assembler - with your theory (which falls in the still in denial stage) will you be one of the people in line for a job willing to make $15 and hour and working with no union?

I'm sure that with this economy that if GM got rid of the Union and started hiring people "off the street" the line would be a long one.

How many jobs can a person get right out of high school and make the kind of money GM was paying?

Won't that be nice of President Bush to forget all of the nasty things the UAW members said about him before he gives them $14b?? If I was Bush, I would tell them to go hump themselves and wait for their chosen one to spoon feed them the money. What does he have to lose?

IN A COUPLE OF YEARS GM WILL BE BACK IN JVL. AND WILL BE HIRING OFF THE STREET.

Soon GM workers with envy the rest of us for we will still have jobs while the cling to Mike Sheridan and Obama to save them.

Come on, Obama could have pushed the deal. I think this is a ploy by the UAW in order to get a better deal once Obama is in office.

The jealosy card that keep getting thrown around on the forums proves there is alot of uneducated people here who know nothing about business. The UAW just put you all out of a job get your heads out of the sand and wake up on the unemployment line its over, there will never be a GM in Janesville great job UAW.....

pubsrus- Show me who got hired off the street at GM since the new deal was agreed upon. The only reason they accepted $14.00 per hour was because they wouldn't be hireing any new employees. If they needed more personal they would transfer somone form another plant or hire contract employees who would be paid and have benefits through that company.

NOT IN THE BANK. SORRY. WISH I WAS. ITS A WONDERFUL THING. ALMOST AS GOOD AS BEING A POLITICIAN.

magneto1-President "Elect" Obama is not even in the oval office yet. Not much he can do until Jan. 20th.

TO the UAW member who said he'd like to get his hands on the southern law makers: Here's a better idea....GET YOUR HANDS AROUND YOUR OWN NECK AND START SQUEEZING IT! You only have yourself to blame! The leadership of the UAW is a mere reflection of it's membership! The membership votes these people into office! Any member of the UAW had the same opportunity to get into a leadership position and show what you're made of. I'm one of them! I chose to get out instead! (Glad I did!) The people who have put all their eggs in one basket and are financially strapped due to their own mismanagement of money and never ending urge to prove how far superior they were than others because they were a GM employee, are the one's who are doing the finger pointing and are the most stressed. WE choose our path in life. There are no guarantees! The world is bigger than GM or the UAW and yes, it's even bigger than YOU or ME! Bitter or Better people??!!! Which is it?!

factcheck-Envy of GM workers? Are you kidding me? How about you all get out of denial and realize that the union that supposedly has been fighting for you is now also going to bury you. Wake up!! Quit blaming Bush for everything. How about the fact that the company you work for has completely screwed you and all the other employees by making piss poor management and marketing decisions. Everyone of you workers should be pissed at the powers above at GM and the union. That's it. Don't blame anyone else. We are the ones that are going to buy the vehicles you make. And right now, there are a lot of people that are beyond pissed that are probably not going to buy them because of everything that has happened.

THE UNION WILL BE GONE REAL SOON AND THEN EVERYONE WILL SEE JUST HOW GREAT THEY ARE.

Read the post, not lose $8 an hour, only make $8 an hour. The minimum wage , if it kept up with inflation, should be about $1.50 higher than that. Some nice sarcasm, seren!

"When some of these senators who have been criticizing this agree to take their wage cuts, we'll take ours,"??? REALLY!! Good sound bite for the UAW but as a taxpayer that has to do the bailing, I’m not liking what I hear. BE REAL AND WAKE UP TO THE REAL WORLD MIKE. I’ve had to change jobs and take cuts in benefits and wages. Who do you represent now??? Just the UAW or all taxpayers??

You may be the one who’s “completely uneducated” about all of this if you don’t feel making further concessions should be part of using our taxes for a bailout. As a taxpayer who has to bail out the private companies and their workers, I want to see real change and I feel getting the UAW pay & benefit packages under control is part of that if they want my tax money. Once again, it’s poor poor GM, Ford, & Chrysler employees while the LEAR and others employees suffer in the real world. By the way, it’s the others in the real world that are bailing them out in case you have forgotten.

Having a “long history of concessions” and making concessions to save the companies and jobs now are two different things. Real families make concessions every day and will continue to do so in order to take responsibility for their families. Just because they did it in the past doesn’t mean they don’t have to do it again now. What makes the UAW any different???

No jealousy or envy here and I’m not blaming the UAW for what they got in the past… just a hard working taxpayer that wants their tax dollars spent with a little thought and planning involved. The past is the past and it’s time for some real change not more wasteful spending.

Assembler-you must be writing this from the jobs bank alongside DDoright

The story says, "GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses...."

Tell that to the 30 plus year old woman who is trying to raise four kids by herself on an eight dollar per hour paycheck for 32 hours a week at a fast foor restaurant. I've said it for years. They are over paid and the union has now priced its' employees out of a job.

Nice going UAW!!

So, how's that union representing you now GM employees? Welcome back to reality and the rest of America who has been scraping to get by for years.

Have a nice day!

You've been living high on the hog with your multiple mortgages, multiple toys in your garage, and multiple car payments.

Maybe you should have saved and invested that $69 per hour pay check money and put it to good use rather than buying the materialistic things in life. I can't say that I'm that sorry to see GM go bye bye.

I know that I'll draw some flack, but so what? It's a public forum!

LOCAL 95 RULES.

WE HAVE FRIDAYS OFF.

SKILLED OR UNSKILLED WHO CARES? ITS THE AMERICAN WAY TO MAKE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN BEFORE YOUR PLANTED IN THE DIRT.

I am sorry but I can not comprehend the arguement from the auto workers that they claim that they work hard and that work is physically tough on their bodies. In so they deserve the wages that they get. First off let's say they actually have very physical jobs that wreck tolls on their bodies. What about the rest of us that don't work at the Auto Plant. Does that mean we don't work as hard or are jobs are not as demanding because we don't make the money they make? What about the waitress or nurse or carpenter, I can keep going on and on. My point is, there is a lot of professions out there that work harder than the autoworker. Maybe they should get their wages raised while the autoworker get's a decrease then. Let's face it, you made tremendous amount of wages in your day and you still making very good money. Why should the rest of us feel sorry for you? I would like to know what is the salary for the UAW President?

The UAW is part of the problem. The automakers are also at fault. They should have to pay for making bad business decisions. That's how the free market works.

DDoright-are you writing this while you sit in the jobs bank playing cards and drinking coffee????????????

Thanks GM benefits for paying for my million plus dollar health care costs. UW hospital and GM are the best. The workers there shold be paid twice as much as what they make now.

factcheck: If my entire industry were facing extinction, yes I would consider losing $8 dollars an hour. These people will still be making ~ $20/hour. Will they need to change their standard of living and pick up some part time work for a bit; sure but at least they will still have a job earning $20 an hour. Unions are a thing of the past and this one in particular. The UAW is THE reason the bridge loan did not go through. This in not the fault of Southern politicians, only the fault of the UAW and it's members who think unskilled labor deserves to make $28 per hour. Who cars about all the concessions you made in the past, you still are earning more than your skills demand!

*

This is NOT a jealousy thing, this is reality!

All I keep reading is ME, ME, ME, ME! I don't work at GM and have no relatives working there. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that something has to be done to prevent the downfall of the auto companies. I trully believe that if they go, millions of other jobs will go down the drain also. Everybody needs to look at this issue as a national crisis because that is what it is. The fact that President Bush is ready to step in himself and do something to ease the crisis is proof enough that this is not just a GM-Chrysler-Ford and UAW issue. Yes, a bailout will cost all taxpayers something. But to not do something and let the automakers collapse would cost this nation even more. And, no, I do not expect an auto worker to earn just $8 an hour. That is not a reasonable wage for anyone in this country. So, please, everyone: Look past your self-pity, jealousy, anger, or whatever, and sanction that we do the right thing for all of us.

Where is the great unifier. I thought Obama was so great that he was going to save us all. Where is the leadership. Truth is, Obama doesnt want to dirty his hands.

This isn't about the UAW, never has been. It's payback by the Repub's for Democratic support and getting Obama elected. If the UAW was such a problem why didn't a single CEO say anything in front of Congress? They had the opportunity but Wagner actually defended the UAW. Make no mistake, this is payback.

is it factcheck or fatcheck?

factcheck-You are correct. This whole thing stinks. Isn't it ironic that the Dems have be pushing all these corporat bailouts and the Rebs have been the ones resisting?

Jealousy and envy, that`s all I see on this site. Same thing in the letters to the Gazette the last 50 years. It`s my tax money too, and I didn`t get a say so when we invaded Iraq, or gave $25 billion to Bank of America to buy a Chinese company when it was supposed to be used to ease credit in the U.S.

ya and most of you that are on here complaining about how much uaw workers make sure like collecting the unerned income credits at the end of the year some totaling over 10,000 a year my husband and I paid well over that into taxes this year.

Thank you anonomouse! We do have a say if it is our taxes!!!

What right do any of you have to say someone makes too much an hour?
____________________
We have every right when it's our tax dollars bailing this out. Most of us don't make anything near what the autoworkers currently make and closer to the $14-$15 dollars they would make.

did anyone force you to go work for GM or was it your choice because you wanted the money!!! I maintain, it is a choice on who we go to work for, if you are unhappy with your employer, look elsewhere for work. I am sure someone else will be more than willing to take the job.

he was 31 and he had no idea he had heart problems...as to looking for a diffrent job ...he was looking but, he was a good provider and work when he he could , chrysler called him back at 14 hr so it was go back or loose his unemployment..as to health insurence chrysler did not reinstate the inchursance when he when back so yes I did apply for badger care but that takes awhile to get approved....the kicker about that is he died at 1:50 am on july 8th and at 10:30 am the same day I got are badger card in the mail.. also most people dont know that chrysler and I beleave Gm dont cover dr visits ..so why would a seamingly healthy 31 year old man go make bills for him self he didnt need.

We will all be paying for this the rest of our lives, our kids, grandkids, etc. Ever since Bush got in the debt has tripled. Only took him 8 years to triple what took 225 years to accumulate. What right do any of you have to say someone makes too much an hour?

All of this bashing and bickering! Let me ask this, what price do you put on your body? from the abuse it takes. Sure the jobs are easy if you do a couple, but do it for 9 hours and see how easy they are or better yet how easy it is on you? THEN tell me that $28 an hour is too much. Until you walk in our shoes and understand, you people have NO room to point blame on the UAW workers! At the teir 2 pay of $14 an hour with no benefits, there will be a revolving door on GM facilities because very few people will put up with the working conditions at that wage. I feel better now. So now all you misinformed, jealous, judgmental, or just plain ignorant people can go on bashing me and GM.

You hit the nail on the head magnet01!!! thank you.

With respect to all; At this point, as far as Janesville is concerned, it doesnt matter who is at fault anymore. The local situation is beyond help of the bailout. Whatever bailout that comes will not include a new product for Janesville nor will it include a jobs bank. One last longshot left: Decertify Local 95 and maybe the plant can get a product. It is only a matter of time before one of the GM plants tries this. A non-union job is better than no job at all.

Pubsrus-if you worked for a domestic auto-maker, you made more than your skills were worth. Good for you. Too bad your pay and benefits costs others their jobs.

I did not make the $70 bucks an hour number.
Here is a link that was referenced in the Journal Sentinal article.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy...

pubsrus...people that chose to work in the auto industry!!! It has always been a choice, no one forced anyones hand on who to go to work for. When we choose to go to work we are not guaranteed to always have a job. When companies make cut backs or have layoffs we simply buck up and do what we need to do to support our families. Even if it means a pay cut or finding a job elsewhere for less money. We don't ask for bailouts or for the government to rescue the company we work for. Look to the leaders of the GM or Ford or Chrysler to send those employees in need money. As a taxpayer.......it is not my responsibility to pay for the greed and excess of the auto makers! And certainly not may children's, who will be paying for this their entire lives!

classic UAW thug mentality: "Another UAW member said he'd like to get his hands on those southern lawmakers". If I don't get my way, I am going to make somebody pay. It really sounds like somebody who is gracious to have a good paying job.

miltres--doing just fine down here in florida. retired, saved my money, and watched how i spent. why is that important to you? we are talking about the jobs of approximately 3 million people.

magneto1, how do you know i got paid enough?

1919eternal--you could live on $20800 per year? If that is true good for you. You evidently don't much about the auto industry. with the 2007 agreement, new hire wages are $14/hr, there is no pension, and health care for retirees is shifted to the union through a veba agreement effective in 2010. with your statement of "i would just be happy to have a job", you are exactly the kind of employee management wants because they would squeeze you and squeeze you until you had nothing. however, you would "still have a job".

pubsrus.....did you save for these rainy, rainy days?????

Again, if we loan the D3 money, where does it end? Do we loan money to strip joints, casinos, taverns, dog tracks, and gas stations? The money to be lent to the D3 is taxpayer money, and if the taxpayers don't like the excessive wages, then don't take the money! If I was Bush, I would tell the UAW to pack up their a##. They wanted no part of him, and now they need him. It is kind of ironic. His hand is around their fate, and all they did was distribute hate, and filth about him for the last 8 years. I saw examples of it in their shop newsletters. Let the D3 restructure, which is what the UAW doesn't want, as a judge will determine the contracts future. The UAW is only worried about thier money, not the health of the company. Period.

And to the lady that lost her husband at a young age, my sympathies. Why didn't your husband go and get a job somewhere else that had health insurance? Why did he stay at Chrysler? If his health was near death, he would have been eligible for Badgercare.

pubsrus-You got paid more than enough.

mark707 your figures are wrong as well. the way the $73/hr was figured is this: all the wages gm pays to its workers, plus all the monies paid to retirees, plus all the monies paid to the spouses of deceased retirees(they had to take less of a pension for this option),plus all the monies paid in health care benefits, divided by the number of workers in the active work force. now don't you think that is a bs number as to what an autoworker makes?

Face it. The workers at the plant make too much money for what they do, and its killing the "big 3" They need to drop everyones pay to 12 or so dollars per hour, cut benefits drastically, and get rid of the pensions. Theres no other way around it. I'd be happy with $10 an hour as long as I had a job.

UAW $29 an hour, Toyota $30 an hour. Add benefits both come close to $50 an hour. The other $20 for UAW is the legacy costs.

magneto-1, would you please breakdown that $73/hour. I worked for GM for 32 years and if that is true they owe me one hell of a lot of money.

plain and simple if the jobs go ...the loans for the what some like to call the "toys" that you all think we had ,the loans for are houses, they wont get payed ...so that pushes more banks to falter and more people on state aid who cares about gm ford or chrysler ...I care about the people that work there ...and the people that it will effect ...almost everyone it will plain ans simply push this all ready faltering state the goverment is into deep

Read the story above where Sheridan says the cuts could bring the wage to $8 an hour. Probably an exaggeration, but who knows for sure what the negotiators call "parity" wages. The hourly rate for wages is already equal, even less in some cases, than the transplants. What they wanted was the cost of the retirees off the books.

Let`s see, 120,000 airline employees lost their pensions when they went belly up a few years ago. It cost the government run Pension Guaranty Fund over $5 billion to take on those obligations. When 1,ooo,ooo UAW pensions go to thThose people earned their benefits, and now some want to steal them awaye PGF how much do you think that bill will be?

Plain and simple the Big 3 did this to themselves by making poor business decissions. If any small or medium size company made some or all of the same choices the Big 3 made they would have been gone along time ago.

Factcheck-Where are you checking your facts? Where is it said that anybody is asking GM employes to take a 70% paycut?

janesvillean...If you add in "legacy costs", it's lots more than $70 bucks an hour. According to Patrick McIlheran of the Journal Sentinel:

"They’re paying off promises made by
predecessors. Which they are, of course. But that’s not part of the $70 an hour figure.
That number is all current workers, notes analyst James Sherk. He looked at GM’s SEC filings,
and Heritage people called Ford to confirm the same thing:
The companies record the expense of retiree benefits when they’re accrued,
not when paid. So those outsize labor costs are for current workers.

Where does the $70 an hour go? Just under $30 an hour is the wage itself
(not terribly far above what foreign-owned plants pay), but that gets up to
just under $40 when you factor in overtime, shift premiums – 10% extra at
Ford, for instance, for working the midnight shift – and vacation and
holiday pay. “The remaining $33.58 an hour of hourly labor costs that GM
reports -- 46 percent of total compensation -- was paid as benefits,” writes
Sherk."

And there are no corrupt/greedy unions??????? Are you serious?????????? Wow!! Obviously you are completely stupid as to what is occuring in Illinois right now with the current governor- Maybe you should read/listen to the news!!!!!!

one thing I dont think some people are thinking of is if the good wage jobs go away soon it will trickel down to other jobs ...if uaw emplyees stop spending their wages where you work. Soon you to will be asked to take a wage cut or take a hike. more people will be able to get state aid so up goes your taxes ...but there all ready going to go up becouse the state employment payout from the uaw emlpyees will be gone. if we let the big three falter...we soon will all feel the effects..

Now the big boys in Washington can show us how smart they are and balance the budget!

on an cynical note.....can we ask Mike Sheridan if he can make sure that when he speaks for all UAW workers he can make sure to ask those in Washington for some assurances that I can still keep all my flat screen tvs, jet skis, snow mobiles, Harleys etc as part of the government bailout? I want to keep all my wages and my toys that I bought when I should have been saving for a rainy day like most of us do. Strikingly honest don't you think?

The domestic automakers have lost half of their market share since 1955. Hasn't it been obvious all along that the party wouldn't last forever? The UAW worker of 30 years ago didn't give a rip about the workers of the future. Get what I can now and to hell with everyone else. Well, now hell has to be paid.

It's interesting when companies are making obscene amounts of money they want Uncle Sam to keep his greedy hands to himself. When the greed of a nation robs the middle class of every cent it ever earned those same companies go begging Uncle Sam to save them from the demise they have brought on themselves. The greedy and corrupt government entities and the greedy and corrupt banks, stock brokers, investment bankers and corporations have finally killed the goose that laid golden egg - the middle class. Don’t blame the UAW. The time is at hand when everyone would benefit from collective bargaining. You're gonna see a lot of people lining up at the salvation army. And don’t look to a Bush for your salvation. The only Bush is a burning bush and dd we ever get burned.

They wanted to cut the benefits, health, pension, of the retirees to force an agreement. The wages are already at "parity" with the foreign companies. Some of them even make more. Are we going to demand they cut their wages if the Big 3 fold? Yeah! Right!

Typical UAW arrogance and stupidity!! We want the government and taxpayer to spend billions to bail us out but we will not make any concessions- never mind that the benefits we have are not sustainable in the current economic environment. GM should just declare bankruptcy, void the current labor contract which they would legally be able to do in bankruptcy, and impose whatever wage/benefit package they want. I personaly sick to death of the union greed that exists out ther-get a life people!

No assembly-line worker is making $73 or $69 an hour (maybe some of the executives are). That $69 includes costs already committed to for retirees. It is ironic that the more employees has GM persuaded to take early retirement have only *increased* its obligations relative to the current, smaller, and sometimes lower-paid workforce. It will take years to pay down that obligation, as even before this crisis GM was becoming a significantly smaller company.

mjbike2 I agree with you that alot of people are suffering in our community but how do we pick and choose to rescue only those that work at GM or at companies that are suppliers to GM! Many people that work for other companies are also suffering and struggling. Are we throwing them a lifeline? NO. It is very sad and unfortunate and these times are truly a challenge but it is not the governments job to step in and bail out these companies, certainly not at the expense of all the taxpayers!!! Are we going to rescue the small businesses that are family run as well? How about some of the other companies that are making cuts? Will we continue to pay them their wages even though they are not working?

While I am anti UAW and feel that GM has been holding Janesville hostage for a number of years to either get what they want. I am upset by the fact that the foreign companies that the Big Three are being compared to still charge a comparable price for vehicles that have a much lower cost in labor and benefits. I am suprised that no one is pointing out that they are ripping off the american people much the same as the oil companies did last summer.

This am the mayor of Detroit hit the nail of the head. He said why should Washington dictate what the automaker wage is?? Do we get the chance to dictate what the individuals in Washington make?? He also stated that the autoworker is making a decent wage, therefore setting the level higher for all working americans. His interview was on the CBS Early Show for more exact comments. Please be serious/real about this all... as it WILL affect everyone whether you believe it now or later. This country is in a bad state, and it's NOT just the UAWs fault. It's real easy to point fingers. All I can say is hopefully President Bush will finally do something for the good of this country and pull the money they need out of funds.

I don`t know where any of you union haters work, or what you make, but if you are willing to take a 70% wage cut go for it! In 60 years in this town all I`ve seen and heard is jealousy and envy towards the auto workers. If you can`t carry on an intelligent conversation, quit trying, you just show your ignorance!

I read in article that states it would be easier for GM to file bankruptcy than trying to pay back a huge loan. Also if GM had to claim it will cost tax payers more money in the long run and can be back in business again!

Well said miltres and magneto1!!! It kills me how hypocritical these people are. Guess who would be having a fit if it were another company getting a bailout. Not our hard earned tax dollars they would say. But when the shoe is on the other foot, we the taxpayers should sustain their lavish lifestyles. How about taking the money and funding government programs to feed hungry children, improve health care, help the homeless...I rest my case. Quite your whining and suck it up...if all or nothing is the choice then I guess nothing is the answer!!!

okay , what ever my husband gave his life to chrysler , on july 8 he died do to lack of health care .They "chysler" took away and also do to lack of training the emplyees (management) proper way to react in a cardiac event so excuse me for not focusing on my grammer....look it up if you want the full story ...he died at chrysler at the age of 31 asked for help only to be told to get back to work.

This entire situation is frustrating because everyone is to blame and no one is to blame. When a company becomes as large as GM, it begins to behave more like a force of nature than a tool of man, and becomes just as hard to predict and impossible to control. Let's not forget how many car companies failed in the last century, leaving us with three at this point in time. The more eggs you put in a basket, the more unthinkable it is to drop it.

Don't make a statement about this unless you have a clue whats going on. There are many families suffering from this loss and the community is yet to see how bad it really is.

The reality is, the workers of these car companies have had years of great wages and benefits and now when the reality has set is that they may go under , they are not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to stay afloat. It is not the goverments job to assure you your job or pay! It was a choice to go work for GM or any other car company. You should not be bailed out or saved because of a choice to go to work there. As with any company or employer, we work hard, hope the company thrives, but if it doesn't, we all can't turn around with a hand out and ask that the tax payers save us!!! You pull yourself up by the bootstraps and look elsewhere for work!

Thank you magneto1!!! HHHMMM assemble a car.....teach our children, police our streets, I am pretty sure they don't make that much or when production is slow, still collect 90% plus of their wages. When the schools make teacher cuts, the teachers don't go into a jobs bank and still get paid to stay home.

aparentwhocares-Please use complete sentences and form a coherent thought.

Look, the skills required to assemble a vehicle is not worth $73 per hour. Does it really make sense that an assemble worker would make more than someone with an advanced degree or learned trade...No!

the two wages sucks my husband worked at chrysler for 22 hr then down to 14 hr...never hardly worked a forty hr week ...spent most of his money trying to get to work at 4$ a gallon....and they took the health care away dont think chrysler payed 69 total on him a hour...what bull

i totally agree with sheridan im not an employee of any of the three companies affected by the closure of GM but it is going to devestate our local economy! i dont understand why the government cant just send out a bunch of money to all of the people affected by bushes stupid decisions to spend money where it shouldnt be they can fix all of this instead they are letting the politics get in the way! and they cannot ask for a wage cuts these people have built their lives, mortages and bills around what they make do you think the banks will refinance their mortgages to fit their budget? probably not!!! i say the politicians need to leave the politics out and use their brains to figure out what is best for our economy not just locally but nationally!!!

Perhaps if the UAW was more reasonable and less greedy we would not be in the position we are in! Lets see..... cut wages or no wages. Seems like a no brainer to me! Now, the car companies are needing help and the UAW gets to dictate what kind of help they want? Most families in crisis are not asking or getting help from the government! No bailouts for struggling families!!! Buck up and take responsibility for years of greed and reckless spending. Todays children should not have to pay for these failures. If we let those companies sink then perhaps what will rise out of the ashes will be stronger and wiser!

How do you know if you are overpaid? That fact that no other employer would hire you should be a big indicator. Greed is just as prevalent in the Union halls as it is in the boardrooms. The best thing that could happen for both the automakers and the employees is for the UAW to go the way of the dinosaur.

N/S: Here we go again!! DO WE REALY HAVE TO SPANK YOU "AGAIN" ??????????

Go UAW??????? The UAW pissed off a hole bunch of southern boy's/girl's Hope they can change it around

I would like to know if this is true: The southern lawmakers were the ones who brought this down-but in those states are foreign auto manufacturers who were subsidized by the US government to come to the US. It was just on the news this morning-and these same factories, where the employees make wages competing with the US autoworker wages (minus legacy costs, so far) will be the ones to gain from a failure of the "Big 3".
Something to think about.