BTW the only reason I "retired" the truck was because of the body was rusting out.

I had a 1994 Dodge Ram truck that I just "retired" that had 465,000 miles on it. I pulled backhoes with it for about 300,000 of those miles. Never had any engine problems. It burned a little bit of oil near retirement. The quality is much better than it was in the 80's.

The U.S auto industry has the capacity to build at least 5 million more vehicles per year than Americans want to buy right now, with much of that excess at GM. If people aren't buying cars, jobs are going to go away no matter what. Do you want the U.S. Government to pay workers to not work?

GM cannot change fast enough on it's own. It is going to run out of time, wasting our tax money along the way to Chapter 11. The NADA and UAW have already shown that they are not willing to make the necessary concessions effective NOW (not 2010). GM still has eight brands and about 7,000 dealers, compared to 1,500 dealers for Toyota, yet GM has only 20% market share (down from 52%)! GM has to downsize, and Chapter 11 provides all the tools to do that in a timely fashion.

Frankly, I'm tired of all this "GM is to big to fail" crap. They have already failed. If GM spent their time gaining consumer confidence, by explaining how a reorganization would make their company stronger, instead of begging for a bailout, they would have a better chance. Rick Wagoner and the Board would lose their jobs though, so of course it's out of the question for them.

The only reason Social Security is underfunded is because they stop taking taxes for it at about $115,000. Tax all income and you have enough money. Why should you pay tax on all your income, and the people who make over that threshold pay a smaller percentage?If we did that Obama could leave the tax rates where they are, and the increased income would fund SS with a surplus to be used for other things, which they have been doing anyway.

Chapter 11 finishes the American auto industry, and takes health care from 800,000 retirees and their dependents. Nobody is going to buy a car from a bankrupt company, all the polls say that.They would have to shut down to try and reorganize, their suppliers would go bankrupt, dealers go under. Why do you think they are talking 2 million jobs right away, and 3 million more within 2 years? $156 billion lost taxes in the first 3 years, and $6 billion more in state taxes. Sure it`s a risk, so is everything else the government is trying. I suppose it`s better to give $25 billion to Bank of America to loosen credit, only to have them spend $18 billion to buy into a Chinese company. If the bailout goes south in 3 months, the taxpayer will be at the top of the list to get the money back, if there is any. I`d much rather spend it trying to save an industry rather than blowing a billion a month for 5 or 10 years in Iraq! The Senate should have let the bailout come up for a vote that money was already passed by congress, and signed by Bush, and if they are in business in a few months, they will get that $25 billion.

The 80's Japanese cars were crap? The first Honda I bought was a mid 80's Honda CRX. That car had 150,000 miles on it when I sold it--It never skipped a beat. The Chevy I had at the same time had 1/2 the miles and 10X the problems. I loved that CRX:) That's admirable that the UAW members gave up pay to get those pensions. The point is that those pensions/benefits were an obligation between General Motors and it's employees NOT the American taxpayers and those employees. You can't honestly tell me that with people struggling the way they are right now--with social services and social security being so underfunded, that the taxpayers are going to be supportive of subsidizing a small segment of the population. I have no problem with people accessing the Pension Guaranty--that's what it was set up for and that's where this will probably end up. Unfortunately tens of billions of dollars will be squandered before it does get there.....

"but the "experts" said by 2011 GM labor costs could be less than transplants."

2011? Chapter 11 would fix it in less time, and without taxpayer money.

The second list are Toyota dealers.

Six closest Chevy dealers:
Janesville - Fagen
Beloit - Bud Weiser
Orfordville - Burtness
Evensville - Symdon
Whitewater - Burtness
Brodhead - Ayers

Six closest Chevy dealers:
Janesville - Hesser
Rockford - Anderson
Monroe - Ruda
Madison - Jon Lancaster
Madison - Smart
Fox Lake, IL - Fox Lake

"Its no surprise that GM has 4:1 the dealerships that Toyota has."

Two problems with having four times as many dealers. When six Chevy dealers, for instance, are less than 30 miles apart, they compete with each other. Compare that with Tpyota dealers. Then look at what vehicles in the same segments, from different GM brands (thus dealers), compete with each other. Competition between your own dealers and brands is not a good business model.

Also by 2011, almost 40% of the workforce will be replaced by new hires, at lower wages. If the Big3 go under we will still pay those pensions through the Pension Guaranty Corporation, and seeing as how they are underfunded, they will have to have a bailout, with close to a million auto workers joining their rolls.

Given time, it has already been solved. In 2010 the union takes over responsibility for health care, 40% of GM debt right now is to fund that program, also part of the reason they posted such a big loss last year. In the last contract, defined pensions were eliminated, I`m not sure what besides a 401 they were replaced with, but the "experts" said by 2011 GM labor costs could be less than transplants.

By the way, as of June 2008, GM is fourth in overall productivity.

"When it comes to good, old-fashioned productivity in car making, Chrysler has upped its game so much that it has tied Toyota for bragging rights as the best in North America, so say the surprising results of the 2008 Harbour Report—the authority on automotive productivity—released June 5.

Chrysler was the most improved automaker, 7.7 percent better, while efficiency at Toyota fell 1.5 percent. Once all the numbers were crunched—including the number of hours it takes for stamping, building transmissions, engines, and assembling vehicles—the two automakers finished in a dead heat at 30.37 hours per vehicle each. It’s a clear case of the student catching up to the master, as Chrysler has unabashedly adopted the much-vaunted Toyota lean manufacturing system to improve its manufacturing. In descending order, the rest of the pack are: Honda (31.33 hours), GM (32.29), Nissan (32.96), Ford (33.88), and Hyundai (35.10)."
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car_new...

Its no surprise that GM has 4:1 the dealerships that Toyota has. Toyota simply has Toyota and Lexus dealerships, and typically the Scions are sold at Toyota dealerships.

Now look at GM. They have Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Hummer, Saturn, and Cadillac. I wouldn't consider Saab and such, because they are smaller brands. Now, typically the Saturn dealers are stand alone, as are the Hummer. You pair up a couple of the others such as Chevy and Cadillac, and then Buick with GMC, and there is no shock they are going to have 4 times the dealerships. Seems like pretty simple math to me.

"And adding retirees costs in as hourly wages is just not honest."

But it is fact. The Big 2.8 have higher legacy costs than the transplants. What exactly is your solution to this uncompetitive problem?

Look at overall productivity:
"The Oliver Wyman Harbour Report also shows that the Big Six (GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan) have become so competitive the difference between the most and least productive is a mere 3.5 hours to assemble a vehicle. This near-parity is a far cry from a few years ago when the Japanese could out-produce the Big Three 2:1."
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car_new...

Note the "a few years ago" part.

"“But productivity doesn’t guarantee profitability,” Ron Harbour warns. The Japanese still make much more money on each car assembled and sold. The numbers are downright scary. Honda and Nissan make $1641 in pre-tax profit on every vehicle assembled, while the average profit on a Toyota is $922. Contrast that with $1467 lost by Ford per vehicle, a loss of $729 on average for GM, and $412 in the red on a Chrysler product."

Oh gag me! WTF? Let's just give money to everyone who doesn't know how to handle their finances!

&0`s through early 90`s the Japanese stuff was crap. They didn`t catch up in quality till then. Their government supports them, and half the cars they sell here are made overseas at much lower cost, and they still are seeing little or no profits this fiscal year. Sweden, Canada, Germany, China, have already ponied up bailout money, and I`m sure the Japanese government is involved with their manufacturers, they always have been. I`d love to see a comparison of labor costs with just the cars produced in this country.And adding retirees costs in as hourly wages is just not honest. Only one foreign plant is in the top ten in productivity, and that is a joint venture between Toyota and GM, so much for the foreign innovation and ingenuity theory!

www, I'm sure you understand that there is more to safety than airbags and on-star. Those old vehicles wouldn't stand up to the impact testing required now.

Your idea of a small pick-up is actually a good one though. Ford was ready to discontinue the Ranger, until fuel prices skyrocketed. They pushed back the cancellation until 2009, due to unusual demand.

"What about the junk the Japanese sold in the 70`s through the 90`s, they were crap?"

I think you meant "weren't crap". 60's, yes. 70's onward, no, when compared to the domestics. The truly ironic part is that the Japanese were taught quality by an American, W. Edwards Deming.

"They all gave up pay to earn those pensions, the ones still working gave up pay to help on GM`s health care bills, they gave up pay so the SUB fund could be funded."

Substitute "above average pay" for "pay", and I would agree with you.

"Foreign auto makers have not given up their jobs banks, 4,500 in them right now."

Why should they? They aren't asking for a bailout.

What about the junk the Japanese sold in the 70`s through the 90`s, they were crap? "Extremely generous pensions", tell that to someone who retired 8, 10, 20 years ago. They don`t get what new retirees get, $50 a month for each year of service. They all gave up pay to earn those pensions, the ones still working gave up pay to help on GM`s health care bills, they gave up pay so the SUB fund could be funded. You don`t get something for nothing during negotiations. Foreign auto makers have not given up their jobs banks, 4,500 in them right now. A Japanese auto company invented program, not a union one. It might be helpful to see what some other pensions are worth before making a blanket statement like that.

zoom- i agree. but why not put airbags and onstar, in a truck like a s-10. small truck,small enginge,and small price tag!!! i know, i know, SMALL CHANCE.

916WI, the backlash against GM and Chrysler for taking the bailouts is little talked about. While GM cries that nobody will buy from a bankrupt company (which is silly, because technically, they are already bankrupt), they fail to recognize that many people on the fence about "buying 'mericun" will easily turn away from them because of the bailout. Ford stands to gain big in all this, if they can survive without a bailout in the future.

"zoom-so your saying gm made unsafe cars and trucks?"

Compared to current vehicles? Yes! There's no way an S-10 or Chevette would meet current safety standards for new vehicles.

Another key issue that we're all overlooking here is the shift away from the products for the big 3. In my immediate family(my brother's families as well as my parents) there are 11 foreign cars, but only 1 that was built by an American automaker. Fifteen years ago that ratio was reversed. None of us have plans on buying from the Big 3 ever again. Our foreign cars have all been bulletproof, and while you hear all of the rhetoric about how the"quality is now as good as the Japanese" I'm not going to gamble my $20-30K on it. Not to mention I still remember(and am still a little bit bitter) about the junk they sold me in the 90's. Add to this the disgust the average American taxpayer will feel when their tax dollars are funneled to the support the extremely generous pensions of the retired UAW workers though this handout and the handouts which are sure to follow, and the Big 3 have a huge, almost insurmountable hill to climb.........Good luck to them:-)

zoom-so your saying gm made unsafe cars and trucks? hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!! been happy with mine.

America's Modern Day Motto: "ASK NOT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY, BUT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU"

Half the vehicles Toyota sells in the U.S. are produced overseas, and their labor costs are much smaller than here. Labor costs for UAW plants are 10%, versus 8% for foreign manufacturers in this country. That 2% difference is easily eaten up by the legacy, pension and health care, costs. Toyota pays no health care, or pension costs in Japan at all. They have no retirees in this country yet, when they do, about2018, we`ll see how costs compare.

big! bigger!! biggest!!! blame? bailout? blame is shame.nothing the workers can do about it.the blame is on the fat cats{look in the mirror}

"what's wrong with making s-10's and chevetes, again."

As long as you don't care about safety and quality...

"Why is it that Toyota trucks cost the same, if not more, than the Detroit 3 trucks (at least they were the last time I was shopping for one)? As a matter of fact, why do the vehicles that are made in another country, Mexico for instance, cost as much as those made here in this city?"

Vehicles made outside the U.S., or by non-union labor, are more profitable per vehicle, due to lower labor costs. Toyota has also beaten everyone else at the quality game over the years, so there is no need to sell their vehicles cheaper to compete. The Big 2.8 only make a profit on large vehicles, because labor is mostly a fixed cost. The bigger a vehicle is, the more they can charge, but the labor stays relatively the same. Now that the SUV market has collapsed, due to high fuel prices, the Big 2.8 labor disadvantage (among other things) is now their undoing.

Am I the only one OUTRAGED! who helps the mom and pop business owners? How does this fit into ANY model of American economics? Where does this money come from? What happened to capitalism? This will go down as another ugly day in American history. I cant believe those people who represent "the people" could have consulted with any of them. . . . .

Why is that Toyota is not asking for a bailout. Becasue they price their cars to make money and are profitable. In order for GM to be competitive selling their vehicles, they have to lower there prices. Without keeping their prices in line with their comptitors, they would be asking for more than a bailout. Since their cars are considerably more costly to produce, they end up nearly going bankrupt in rough times.

I have a question for all you union haters: Why is it that Toyota trucks cost the same, if not more, than the Detroit 3 trucks (at least they were the last time I was shopping for one)? As a matter of fact, why do the vehicles that are made in another country, Mexico for instance, cost as much as those made here in this city? Don't blame the union for all of this...Those of you who have paid holidays, personal, and/or sick time, why do you think you have it? Because your employer is so pure of heart and generous? NO! It's because your employer doesn't want to deal with a union. The same principle applies for unemployment compensation, workplace safety, fair hiring standards, 401k, retirement, pensions, worker's compensation, cost of living increases...I could go on all night. Unions didn't fight for these things for only their members, but for ALL workers. If unions die now (and the obituaries are already written), all other employers are going to follow suit & take away these benefits that we all enjoy. Merry Christmas!

what's wrong with making s-10's and chevetes, again. lower mpg. and lower to make and sell. bigger is not always better.{tahoe,caddy's,burbans}

MadeinUSA, Don't lump Ford in with GM and Chrysler. Ford mortgaged everything they could last year in anticipation of slowing sales for SUV's, before fuel prices skyrocketed. They now have enough cash to survive the next year, haven't taken the bailout, and actually have some very nice small cars in the pipeline. They have a plan for survival, unlike GM and Chrysler.

"How about an auto factory outlet store?"

That would violate dealer franchise laws. The NADA would fight that 'till their last breath, like they would Chapter 11. And GM has 4 times as many dealers as Toyota.

WTP= Consider yourself to be unlucky that the same union who has caused all these problems being very greedy priced yourself out of work.

Say there WTP-the UAW did NOT cause all these problems. Do you receive your news in a "GOP vacuum"? How much profit money has GM stolen away from U.S. based sales, to build factories overseas in Thailand and India or S. America, to use 3rd world labor, which would violate most labor and enviro. laws here? Give me your best guess just how much of their profits left this continenet just for tax hiding purposes? If you're anti-Union, or anti-UAW that's fine, but back up your opinion with how you think the UAW is the source of this latest problem. While you are contemplating that consider these two facts;

a. It took 5 years for oil to get to $147 a barrel last July, and just 4 months for it to come back down to $38 a barrel yesterday; Why?

b. This " Big 3 Emergency" just came about in the 2nd week of November, 2008, after the Election. All these GM/Chrys/Ford Execs. are University/College Business and Econ. majors, correct? But they could not see this coming just before 5 weeks ago? Why?

I apologize for two posts on this topic in one day; but solutions are begging for "out of the box" thinking.

Just a few thoughts: How about an auto factory outlet store? That's right, some place attached to the manufacturing plant that actually sells the vehicles. Not fancy so it would save on the overhead of pricey, opulent, showrooms. Let the customer do their own paper work e.g. sales tax and licensing. And why not order "online'? The customer could set up their own loan through a lender of their choice, then order exactly the vehicle they wanted directly from the manufacturer. Then let the customer pick up their own vehicle without a "transportation charge". Am I being too simple here?

People are not buying cars, period! Jobs bank was suspended weeks ago, except for the Japanese companies(who invented it, not the UAW!). 40% of GM`s debt is owed to the UAW to have them take over health care, even in the Senate negotiations the union agreed to take stock instead of cash for half that debt. No more defined pensions for new workers, $14 an hour for new workers, if they can make it to 2011(experts say, not me) that the Big3 labor costs will be less than transplants. If they don`t survive, do you really think the foreign makers will keep paying what they are? They only do it now to keep out the union. Some work rules should have been addressed years ago, some were at Janesville in the early 2000`s. workers labeled boothcleaners were doing laborer, and janitor work, a new concept at the time. Janesville was ahead of the curve, and still make each vehicle $700 less than Arlington! GM only needs one plant for SUV`s, and we will never know how they arrived at their decision. Again, all I hear from UAW haters is the word, "greed".

Yes, it appears that GM is already financially bankrupt. I think there is a bigger underlying issue, however. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have lost the faith and trust of their customer base, the American public. I'm talking management AND union here!

How do you restore that? I think it's quite simple. You only have one product...personal transportation. As a customer I will buy personal transportation that is "A-reliable and B-economical". Comfort is a distant third and gadgets an even further fourth. As you restructure keep focus on the basics!!

Yes, it's probably too late for the Janesville plant; but this is even bigger than that.

Yes, when your liabilities outstrip your assets by a factor of 10, you are already bankrupt. Most people already know this. I wonder if the backlash against GM and Chrysler for accepting bailout money will dround out their calls to "buy 'mericun" anyway.

GM has 4 times the number of dealers than Toyota. Due to franchise laws, it would cost billions for GM to cancel them. GM learned that lesson when they got rid of Oldsmobile. GM's only solution so far is to stop developing new vehicles for those brands, hoping the dealers wither away. In reality, the best way for GM to shed dealers (and brands) is Chapter 11. Of course, the NADA and UAW will object to that. I'm afraid the bailout announced today is just delaying the inevitable, and keeping them from doing what is necessary to survive in the long run. I sure hope that Obama does what Bush couldn't, and force those companies into Chapter 11, so they can some out as better companies. I'm not happy about my taxes going to groups like NADA, UAW and the GM Board/Management that have no intention of making real changes to survive.

Which by the way, they're getting the money. It's been announced. Now GM better pull their heads out of their #@$#$'s and start building vehicles people want for a realistic price tag or they're going to be right back where they started and look like bigger fools than they already do.

It amazes me how easy it is for people to constantly blame the President for everything. Woodchuck, GM should be completely ashamed of themselves and I hope they cannot look themselves in the mirror in the morning. If you are an employee of GM, you should be furious and ashamed at what GM did. Nobody else but them.

The big three are about as bankrupt as companies can be. It's just a question of semantics. And they are right, people do not want to buy cars from a bankrupt company and they are not buying them. A structured bankruptcy might actually instill more consumer confidence by establishing a light at the end of the tunnel. Labor and management are against this because it would require more concessions from them, so they put their own immediate self-interest ahead of what is best for the company in the long term and chant the mantra about bankruptcy. When Obama takes office, he is going to enforce a structured bankruptcy and everyone except management and the union will praise him for his wisdom.

Woodchuck: Are you currently in the job bank and that is why you are afraid of chapter 11 bankruptcy. You are telling me that you don't want to see the auto industry restructure to be competitive. This country has seen many major companies file chapter 11 over the past 10 years and came back. Two examples are United airlines and Kmart. Those employees did not have a job bank to fall back on and where out in the cold. Consider yourself to be unlucky that the same union who has caused all these problems being very greedy priced yourself out of work.

Bush doesn't care if the auto industry (and more importantly, the UAW) fails, he just doesn't want it to happen on his watch. This "orderly" bankruptcy will just push the failure off into the new administration. Nobody will buy cars from a bankrupt company.