whybesad...I get it. Hussein sounds Arabic. Arabic = Muslim. Muslim = Terrorist. Ergo, Barack Obama is a Muslim terrorist and anyone who votes for him wants us all to die in a horrific terrorist attack.
Give me a break. Unless you often go around referring to the other candidates as Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton, John Sidney McCain III, Michael Dale Huckabee, Ronald Ernst Paul, and Maurice Robert Gravel, I'm going to have to assume that you are a racist and/or the type of person who unfairly judges an entire religion based on the actions of a few. You've certainly got the right to feel that way and the freedom to express those feelings but have the guts to come out and say it.
How about some substance to your post. Socialized medicine doesn't work, why not? Barack hasn't done much in his two years in the Senate, how so? Did he introduce fewer bills than other Senators or not vote as often? Those votes that he didn't make, were they on important legislation or no? Do the people of Illinois feel that he has represented them well or are they upset? If you're so against Barack, let's try some substance to convince others, not simply throw out a middle name that you find scary.

write in thekid3477 for president. who gives a crap about health care. ill legalize pot as my first agenda and we can stop spending 30 BILLION dollars a year to fight the 'war on drugs'. you know why its not legal now when research after research shows medicinal benefits?? BECAUSE...PFIZER....CANT....PATENT...A...PLANT.

Yea I'm not totally sure.
Even if you were to steal someone's identity, it would have to be someone who qualifies based on their income level and family situation. And odds are if they do qualify, they already have a Medicaid account.

When I worked there at first we didn't verify numbers but we started getting slammed with fines for bad numbers so the agency decided to check all numbers and it was frustrating because those people would work for months before we would get a notification that the number was bad. Alot of times by the time we got the notification, they wouldn't even be working for us anymore...

Couch: Okay, like I said I was just curious after seeing so much of it firsthand and I wondered how the different government systems handle it.

Seabee: I wouldn't necessarily say they deliver mail well! LOL I can tell you some scary things about stuff I have mailed out that was postmarked and sent through the system only to arrive nearby and I get a phone call from the nice lady who got it who said I am sorry I opened it, it was in my mail but I opened it and realized it was supposed to go to Chicago and that it was a bill you were paying. She very nicely dropped it off to me but of course it was late as this was 2 weeks after it was postmarked! :o) Not to mention mail that has never made its' destination. I know this is off topic but thought it was humorus!!

I'm sure that office has access to a SSN database where they check the name, address and other information. I don't know exactly what the process is, but it's probably very, very difficult to get a fraudulent Medicaid account. You are dealing with the government themselves, after all.

Delta: Good ideas!!

guyonthecouch: I was wondering if the social security numbers are ran through the system and checked? The only reason I ask is because I used to work at a staffing agency and we verified all social security numbers and we had alot of bad cards and bad numbers and we would send them to the local office to get whatever the problem was corrected and they never came back...so I was just curious if the government agencies follow the same practice? We also had several incidences of identity theft where people were using legitimate numbers but they belonged to someone else. We had 3 people press charges against those who had used their number. We also had one worker who we were notified that they had been using a bogus number (this was before we started running checks on all the numbers) and the worker was told if they didn't get it straightened out we would have to end the assignment so they quit and came back months later and when I recognized them said can't I apply under a different name. This worker also was getting help from the local county office even though we informed them that the worker was using a fake number.

Can the Gazette stop the spam from facts2008 already?

Socialized medicine isn't a good idea. Barack Hussien Obama hasn't done much of anything in his two years in the senate. Look at his record before you cast your vote.

Keep in mind people, the government only does 3 things well. Deliver the mail, Take your money, and Kill people. Thats it. You really want to trust them with your health care?

Parkergrad:

Let me add, the US is underperforming and should make it a goal to improve its infant mortality rates. But again, on balance, the World does not recognize the Canadian system to be superior than the US system. You and I will have to argee to disagree-I enjoy the debate!

Parkergrad:

Regarding infant mortality-you are "statistically" orrect. But not because the US has an inferior health care system like so many would like to claim (and, of course, then claim that a universal health care system would "save the babies"), but instead because while there is a standard for reporting infant mortality statistics throughout the world, it appears only the US follows it.

Ironically, US statistics are, in a way, a result of our technological advances, advances that have given more marginal babies a chance for survival than they have had at any other time in our history.

So when you hear all the wailing and gnashing of teeth and the anguished questions of "why can't the most advanced country on earth save more of it's babies", take it with a huge grain of salt, please. We now save babies who would never have had a chance at life because of our technology, not despite it.

As for lifespan, unfortunately, the US percentage of african-american and hispanics is greater than that of Canada. As pharmacist you should have a pretty good understanding of the data surrounding and mortality in african-american and hispanic populations. As you know, its is much lower than caucasion-these alone would contribute to a statistical anomoly.

In its totality, the world is not lining up to take advantage of the superior canadian health care system. This is reserved for the United States.

Yeah, and I'm real sure that if you have private insurance, you won't still be paying for everybody else's too right? lol. And you will most likely be villified for having better healthcare. Bring on the socialism! BAHHH BAHH!

DrTalk, actually I will respond to that. Under Obama's plan, you're free to have private health insurance if you want. So your 'selling your freedom' and 'accepting government handouts' argument doesn't hold water. Yes, children are required to have health insurance, but that too can be private.

Basically we can try to cover all children and some illegals will slip through, or we can just forget the whole thing. Hmm, tough choice.

"guyonthecouch,
If you're willing to reject your indivdual sovereignty for government handouts (at your own expense no less), then be prepared to live with the consequense of your own decision. I'm prepared to live with the choices I make. Me, I want a market driven health care system where I have the freedom to choose only the health care coverage I need. No more, no less. Unlike you, I won't be selling out my freedom because some politian promised me handouts."

I don't think this even merits a response.

"Couch:

I am sure that there are no duplicate social security numbers of patients who file for medicaid/badgercare-afterall, you have to be a US citizen to have a social security number, right?

Are you laughing?-because everyone else is."

____________________

Not really sure what you're saying here. There can't be duplicate social security numbers in the computer system because that's the unique identifier. Unless you've successfully stolen someone's identity, which does happen, good luck filing a claim. As far as people taking advantage of it, of course it happens. But that's going to happen no matter what.

rockcofarmer; you keep referring to "heat" in your posts, and have even referred to "DrHeat".
You seem to be combining the posters here.
Are you referring to me or DrTalk? It would appear by your comments thst you mean him not me. Correct?

TCB:
For the third time, I will ask: If the American health system is so good, why are the infant mortality rates higher and people overall live 2 years less?

TCB - I don't have time right now to explain my position on union/non-union or health care (pivate singlepayer/government run) maybe tonight. I'm sure you and heat can't wait. The health care issue for me is runaway costs vs inflation anyway, not who pays for it. We are all paying for it one way or another. My question is who has the better bargaining postion the individual or a group? I always thought it was cheaper to spread out the costs over a larger group. Maybe not. My other question is if the Canadian, Swedish, English, French, etc, etc. sytems are so bad, why don't we hear them clamoring for the U.S. system? Seem to me the only people angainst this are the ones making money on it. Don't get me wrong , I'm a capatalist just like the rest of you.

Parkergrad:

The default mode of any government system is to “control health-care costs” by providing less health care. Once it becomes natural to wait six months for an MRI, it’s not difficult to persuade you that it’s natural to wait ten months, or fifteen. Acceptance of the initial concept of “waiting” is what matters. Public health care in Canada depends on private health care in the U.S.

Total revenue for every level of government in the U.S. is approximately 27 percent of GDP, while in Canada it’s 37 percent. And yes, that 37 percent includes health care-the bottom line is that the Canadian economy is more heavily taxed-I dont want to see that here.

All in all, I think we all agree that the system is not serving everyone equally, or fairly. But I don't think that trashing the system that has served us for many years, in favor of letting the government do it, is the right idea. Remember how well the government handles the need of people now. If you have trouble remembering, think Katrina.

The trouble with health insurance is that you do not know what you have until its too late to change. You can read the policy coverage, but it is full of limitations and caveats that are very subjective or hidden in various places. If you are paying a large enough premium, they will pay the small expenses with no problem. When you encounter a serious and expensive problem, the game changes. They deny coverage and leave it up to you to fight for your benefits. They have plenty of lawyers on retainer and you have none unless you have a lot of extra cash. You are sick, out of work, and just trying to get through the day. Easy prey. Even a small percentage of a large bill is usually impossible for the average person to pay. And you still have to pay the premiums or your coverage lapses. If you can clear all of those hurdles, when your policy comes up for renewal (and that can come anytime of the year depending on when you acquired coverage), guess what? Your premium has increased dramatically. Bottom line is that to insurance companies, insurance is for people who don't use it. The system is against you when it comes to health insurance.

janesvillegirl72,
I didn't say I had all the answers. But here's one thing I do know: If I take my own personal money and use it to help out ohters, that's called charity. But If the government come in, takes my money, and then gives it to others, that's called theft. It's legal theft, but it's still theft. Studies have shown that people would be more charitable than they are now if the government stay out of their pockets. There's also a lot of administrative overhead when the government tries to be charitable and what's left doesn't help those individuals out much.
My sister has had financial problems and I've done what a could to help her out. I give money to charity. I tithe and in turn the church uses some of that to help others. Now that you've told your story, someone might start a fund for your husband. Like I said, I don't have all the answers but one thing I'm sure of is that a government run health care is not the right way to go.

Dr Talk
You make comments about paying more for better service, that is all fine and dandy again for affluent people. I was what some would deem affluent, until my husband became disabled, now I am seeing what health care and insurance is really all about. All the extra disability we paid for is a load of garbage. Now my husband is 40 something has an incurable dehabilitating disease and no health coverage. How would you suggest I fix this. My job and his disabilty covers our bills but nothing else. I had to molest my 401k to pay off last years medical bills at 10% interest. I never wanted someone else to take care of us, only health coverage that was reasonable and did not drop you at the first sign of trouble. And by the way my husband has MS and needs scans twice a year, it has been almost a year and a half since he has had one, not because of a wait time but because we cannot afford one. Hope nobody ever needs their health coverage but be glad you have it or can afford the consequences because if something happens it will eat through everything you have.

Accept Obama for what he is. He is a man running for the Democratic presidential primary candidate who is trying his best to get the nomination. I am listening to him on TV live at this very moment and he strikes me as a man who will say anything that he thinks will help him achieve this goal. Mr Obama would do well to remember his mantra that words matter. I have never heard such a reckless laundry list of promises in a presidential campaign.

husbandofmath,
If two stores sell the exact same product but the stores sell it at different prices, where would you buy it? Would you be willing to buy it at a higher price if the store provided better service? The same thing would apply to health care. If a clinic has good quality doctors and they take good care of their patients, many would be willing to pay a higher price to go to that particular clinic.

Taxing junk food is rediculous. Your are responsible for what you eat. Companies have the freedom to make junk food and you have the freedom to choose whether or not you want to eat it.

It is difficult to treat health like other commodities since you can't return a bypass if it doesn't go well. Health care can't be compared to hamburgers. This is why talking about free markets in heath care is ludicrous. I can't even get a detailed bill now. Simply tax foods high in fat and sugars since their consumption bears a greater cost on the health care system. Eat fresh fruits and vegetable you wouldn't pay the tax. A tax loophole that provides a benefit.

Yay, the Badgers won :)
TCB:
Please SHOW me where the US health system is working better for people. Recent figures, from the US government, show the US infant mortality rate is 33% HIGHER in the US than Canada (and is on par with Cuba and South Korea). Also, people are living over 2 years longer overall in Canada than the US, men almost 2 years longer and women almost 3 years longer. That's not bad for a bloated government-run health care system.
I have seen statistics that also show that, despite Canadians living longer and having a better chance of surviving at birth, the American government spends roughly $2700 per capita, while Canadian government spends around $2100 per capita. Total healthcare spending per capita, the US spends about $6400, while Canada spends about $3300 (2005 figures).
Just look at the stats and and tell me that the American system is so much better than the universal healthcare system! If the waiting times are so long, how come people here are not dropping like flies?

deltafox,
Now your thinking like someone who loves freedom. I really enjoyed that last post of yours. In fact, California just started doing exactly that. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/2...
If there's up-front pricing, it will make clinics more competitive, and health care costs will come down.

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Flood Arena
Beloit College
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Beloit, WI
Monday, February 18, 2008
Doors Open: 8:00 p.m.
The event is free and open to the public; however, space is limited. Tickets are not required, but an RSVP is encouraged.
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What about making health care competitive? Making clinics compete for your (or your insurance companies money) Follow me for a second. When was the last time you asked your Doc how much a strep screening would cost, then called a different clinic to see if it would be less expensive there? Just wondering if the spirit of competition would drive quality up and prices down. Now I am not advocating a Walmartiaztion of the health care system as a whole, but what about routine things like strep screenings, etc? How many times have we all just need a prescription for something and had to pay the office visit fee and not even see the Doc? What if you make a walk-in clinic that didn't accept insurance at all, and just provided health care and gave you a receipt and made the patient responsible for filing all the claims and chasing the money, instead of the hospitals and clinics having all that staff to process all those claims and paper work? Find ways to cut expenses and pass the savings to the customer. Maybe national health care isn't the cure, but we have to fix the system we have so it is accessible to everyone.

The best Democratic campaigner- Senator Obama
The best Republican campaigner- Ron Paul
They have the most enthusiastic campaigners, as for Obama he has changed the trajectory of campaigns and has made a remarkable turn around making up a deficit of a 30% lead in the polls.
Ron Paul up until recently held the record for the most online contributions in 24 hrs.

The U.S constitution didn't give women the right to vote but it doesn't mean we should not give women the right to vote. Hence it was ammended.

You've got a skewed logic here "whatdidyousay".

Obama's health care plan is clearly more efficient than Clinton's health care plan. Clinton tried to impose her plan for 16 years and never succeded in passing a viable healthcare reform. Clinton's healthcare plan is more like a tax where everyone MUST pay money and if you don't you'll be FINED. Obama's health care plan is cheaper and will reduce the cost of medical services and the best part is that it is not like a tax and you are not forced to buy it.

The Clintons promised healthcare for 16 years and never delivered. What makes people think she will do it now? Add to it she said she would garnish wages if you do not pay for it. She will take it out of your paycheck.

Parkergrad

The first duty of a market economy is to serve consumers. Facilitate that with free and open competition, and everything else falls into place. Entrepreneurs will bring together the other factors of production - resources, labor and capital - to provide goods and services satisfying consumer demand at a market-clearing price that includes sufficient profit to justify the enterprise. Healthcare is a business.

Businesses that best serve their customers in an efficient manner will thrive; businesses that fail to meet the test will perish. Economist Joseph Schumpeter termed this the "creative destruction" of capitalism. It's a good thing - except for the narrower interests of businesses that fail.

Also, there are quality services in Canada-I know this, my issue is with efficiency. Govt simply does not do things effeciently. Its not in their nature. I have an open mind, but on this topic-my mind is settled. Canada's system has a lot of problems and Canada is 1/10 the population of the US. I dont have the confidence that the US govt can take a 2.5 trillion dollar industry and make it more effecient for consumers.

Farmer:

I have not been to the Madison or Minne VA-hospital. They might be fine institutions-where resident physicians learn to practice medicine-then they move on to private practice. Physically a majority of VA hospitals are falling apart. Its a shame and a disgrace to our veterans. But this is a fact,you experience in Madison or Minne is irrelevant (thanks for your service btw).

Am I affluent? Maybe, I guess you think I am. It depends on how one defines affluency. But I have earned every penny. I graduated from Craig, I put myself through undergrad and graduate school-it can be done. I studied hard, worked several jobs, have been all over the world, and my perspective its much better here than anywhere else. I know and see the failure of govt socialized medicine.

As for GM, Waggoner has a job because his board, not the UAW, recognizes that GM is making money everywhere except North America. Change does not happen overnight. GMs issues are complex, GM loses money in NA for a variety of reason-namely becuase their cost structure is too high and most importantly consumers want to buy other products. When GM consistently makes cars and trucks that are perceived to be better than the competitin-GM will make more money in North America.

Remember farmer, if anyone reads any of your posts you consistently support a lack of choice-whether its to belong to a union, and now its to choose your medical provider. You prefer to have someone else make big decisions in your life, that's fine with me;

Rock Co Farmer:
Thanks for having an open mind about universal health care. I have to admit I was leery of having universal health care at first, but now that I have seen it personally, it is really the way to make sure you have a healthier population and children need not suffer because their parents are poor. Nothing is perfect, but as I will show with statistics from the US government, Americans fare much worse than the "socialized" medicine countries.
TCB:
I hope I DON'T run into you on Yonge St literally (that is the street near which my friend was hit by a car ;) ).
If you are using Belinda Stronach as your role model of what is wrong with Canadian health services, you are only hurting your argument. Many people here compare her to Britney Spears. Just google her name and you can see the illustrious career she HAD in Canadian politics.
"Queue jumping" is not an indication of quality or availability of health care, but one of "convenience", usually for more pampering of wealthy individuals who feel the need for "luxurious" treatment. Of course a properly and responsibly run government health system is not going to give everyone a "Hollywood" style of medical treatment. I really doubt that any of the American "private" insurance companies would do that.
I recognize that at times there are shortfalls in the less-populated areas, re: the quadruplets born last year in a Montana hospital because of the shortage of neo-natal beds in Saskatchewan. Canada's hospitals could have handled the 4 children being born at once, but felt the family would have been better served in one hospital, than being placed in 2 hospitals here. The Canadian government covered all the expenses incurred at the US hospital, with nothing coming out of American's pockets.
OK, now the facts: The first link shows infant mortality rates among a lot of the world's countries:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications...
This is a list compiled by the CIA, and ranks the countries from worst to best. The US is ranked #180, who are rated worse than S. Korea (#181) and Cuba (#182), at 6.37 deaths/1000 live births. Canada is ranked #199 at 4.63 deaths/1000 live births. The majority of the countries ranked better (to #221) are countries with universal health care.
The second link is to life expectancy in the US and other countries. This one is done alphabetically, so is harder to compare:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications...
The US: total population: 78 years
male: 75.15 years
female: 80.97 years (2007 est.)
Canada: total population: 80.34 years
male: 76.98 years
female: 83.86 years (2007 est.)
Most of the European countries do better than both, and most have universal health care.
Sorry to cut this short, but I want to see my beloved Badgers basketball game :)

The fact is that we already have national health care. They are called emergency rooms. And emergency room costs are the highest because usually by the time it comes to that it requires a hospital stay. So, there would be some savings.

Protectionism has never worked and will never work. I also find it sad that all these liberal democrats act like Republicans when it comes to poor people in other countries getting jobs.

Also, I hear Barack has figured out a way to get cars to run on hopes and dreams.

Thanks parkergrad for giving a first hand perspective on the Canadian health system. By the flury of posts from TCB, one would think that you cast a light on all his half truths he and his associates likes to post on here and he didn't like it. TCB doesn't realize that if you don't have money or a good job with those benefits, U.S. health care is getting hard to afford or access. What would be worse, having to wait for a procedure or not having access because your insurance provider denied the procedure, dropped you or you couln't afford it? There are plenty of examples out there that prove this out. I know first hand people who have been denied procedures as well as people who have had to file bankrupcy because of high medical bills. Enjoy your health while you got it. Health care costs increased 22% last year, sounds to me like somebody is gettting rich off sick people. We all aren't affluent like TCB and Dr. Heat appear to be. TCB- you didn't mention Madison or Minneapolis VA hospitals, those are fine places to go for medical care, I know because I have been there. The other ones that you mentioned, if they are substandard then its a crime that they haven't been improved. If as a country we can send young men and women overseas to extend our foreign policy, then we should give them the care they need when they come home. Don't you agree? Dr Heat - yes I did read the article, did you? That is why I questioned $17B versus $17M. You used Viagra as a specific med to draw a negative response, but my limited research showed that lifestyle drugs also included meds to control high blood pressure. Wouldn't those drugs be a good thing to have to prevent other medical problems? I don't know if $17M is a lot for prescription meds unless I see all the meds in that catagory, not just one specific med as you tried to do. If GM's operating costs were so bad how come the board of directors doesn't replace anyone? Seems Rick Wagnor has been running that company into the ground long enough and been compensated well I'm sure, but obviously its the workers fault. Maybe the reason that the US auto companies can't compete with the others right now is because those companies all are from countries with government run health care. I for one will not be afraid, that is why I will vote to change the direction that this country is going and hopefully it will be the right one. If not, then in four years we will try again. Can't do any worse than what the chimp has done for seven years. Okay all you pajama clad blog experts have at it.

Parkergrad:

Good luck winning the lottery. Only then can you concern yourself with the tax implications.

Its canadians who come the United States for Health Care. Amricans are not lining up to go to Canada for health care (the exception is for some prescription drugs that Canada subsidizes the retail price on)-this is a fact and you know it. Annecdotal ED wait time are not indicitive of the Canadian system. Yes, providing rural care is more difficult-but if someone wants to live in a rural environment-more power to them.

As for your MRI example, again, the average wait time in canada is 200 days-this is for the MRI-your friend was lucky-and your example is not consistent with the data that Canada supplies to its people

As you mentioned, no system is perfect, however, the US system is still the considered the best in the world. People are not flocking to Canada or cuba or the UK to receive treatment for life threatening diseases. They come the the United States. You can deny it if you wish, but your only kidding yourself.

Perhaps I will run into you on Yonge street!

TCB

guyonthecouch,
If you're willing to reject your indivdual sovereignty for government handouts (at your own expense no less), then be prepared to live with the consequense of your own decision. I'm prepared to live with the choices I make. Me, I want a market driven health care system where I have the freedom to choose only the health care coverage I need. No more, no less. Unlike you, I won't be selling out my freedom because some politian promised me handouts.

Okay. Obaminations. Somebody's gotta do it.
THERE IS NO EASTER BUNNY. Grow up already. Who do you think is financing your hero's rock concert? Hello! The REPUBLICANS! (check out -thecityedition.com for all the big money republicans coughing up for Obama). Because HE CAN'T WIN IN NOVEMBER. He has no experience; no credentials.

I heard someone say recently that Obama lies every time he opens his mouth (he has now promised so many conflicting things it's hard to keep track). That's not quite true: He PALGAIRIZES every time he opens his mouth. Every time he releases anything substantive--(the economy, katrina relief) he stole it from Clinton. Not cool.

He tells people in Idaho he's not going to take away their guns--but he's supported gun control for 20 years! Doesn't take money from special interests? What was the $160K from Execlon (the nuclear giant)? A Valentine?

He has the most liberal voting record in the Senate (that is, of course, the 20% of the time he shows up to vote)--and somehow he's going to attract independents and moderates? Well, maybe so far--but NOT WHEN THEY FIND OUT WHO THEY'RE VOTING FOR!

He's a member of a RADICAL church in Chicago that just honored Louis Farrakhan (yeah, really--Louis Farrakhan--that amiable, peace-loving, change- making UNIFIER (nothing divisive about Louis Farrakhan) whose stated objective is to support Africa (not the US) and divest from Israel to aid their muslim brethren (check out their website if you don't believe me:Chicago Trinity United Church of Christ/mission.

Barack Obama (or 'Barry'--as he was known before he found Black Power') is not qualified to be President--as he himself acknowledged in 2004 (check out the most recent Vanity Fair)

Change? Another good lookin,' fast talkin' guy that needs a teleprompter to keep his facts straight...Sounds like more of the same to me. HILLARY '08

Just saw your comment about waiting 200 days (average) for an MRI. I took someone to the hospital for her MRI, which was 2 weeks after she was hit by a car while crossing the street. Just an ordinary citizen, not an MP or anything like that. She had to wait 2 weeks, because the doctor wanted her to wait until the swelling went down enough to get a good result.
Oh, and the ER visit? It happened on a Friday night, yet the ER was not over-crowded. In fact, since poor people don't rely on the ER as their "family physician" like they do in the US, there were a manageable number of people waiting. My friend was seen immediately, x-rayed, CAT-scanned and admitted with 2 broken legs and torn cartilage in the knees. The most horrifying thing was that she HAD to stay in a semi-private room! Imagine, an American health insurance company requiring you to share a hospital room with one other person! (Sorry for the sarcasm, it is rather late). The nursing staff was excellent and everything was spotless.
Do not tell me about Canadians having a drug formulary. I would be surprised if they didn't. This is MY area of expertise. I am a pharmacist. I dealt with the mind-numbing formularies for EVERY insurance company in America, plus those for the Federal government programs and the state government programs. It is not a "unique" idea, for Canadians only.
My own health insurance at my place of employment had a list of "preferred providers" (doctors). I had to pick my doctor from the insurance company's list, or my doctor visits were not covered. I also had a "preferred hospital", so when I had an emergency, I could not take the ambulance to the closest ER, but instead had to be transported to the "preferred" hospital a half hour further. This was in the US.
In Canada, I choose my doctor. I choose the hospital (albeit preferably the same hospital my physician has staff privileges, except in an emergency). No insurance company dictates that, and the Canadian government doesn't either.
If anything, I have found the Canadian health system LESS intrusive into my health care choices.
Health care should be a right, not a privilege because you work for a particular company. And, if nothing else, ALL children should have equal access to health care, regardless of their parents' income. It's the humane thing to do.

By the way, Canada IS a capitalistic country.

TCB
I live in downtown Toronto.
Yes, you may work with the healthcare fields in all these countries, but I have worked in and watched the American healthcare system degrade over 25 years. I also now receive my health care in Canada.
If it were true that Canadian medical students are rushing the border to attend US medical schools, then why did a new medical school open up in northern Ontario (Sudbury) recently?
OK, if the health care is so much more superior in the US, why does Canada, for example, consistently rate much better statistically in every health area, from infant mortality to longevity, as well as in morbidity for most health problems? In fact, in a few areas of health care, America actually ranks very low along with third-world countries.
I am a US Army veteran that served during the Vietnam war. Yet I am accepted into a Canadian veterans organization here with open arms. I have talked to MANY actual Canadian citizens and veterans, and I have not found ONE person who would want to pay for their health care. I have a good friend who works with a company that provides health care coverage for businesses (which deals mainly with drug coverage, since the businesses do not pay for doctor and hospital coverage). My friend says that if a Canadian was asked to pay even a $2 copay for their doctor or hospital visit, you would here the screaming protest all the way to the US.
Now, to be sure, no health system is perfect. Yes, some doctors and other health professionals come to the US because they can make more money. Guess what? First of all, the compensation here is not too shabby. Secondly, I rather like my doctor here. She is caring, takes time with me, and I am not hustled out the door. Maybe she could make a few more dollars in the US, but I would rather have a doctor who cares more about me and my health than one who rushes me through my alotted 10 minutes in the US, so that US doctor can make more money.
Like I stated previously and will say again, finding health care professionals is more difficult in both rural Canada AND rural America. That's a situation not unique to "socialized" medicine. But when one looks at health statistics for various diseases, infant mortality and longevity, Canada ranks higher than the US in almost every category. Yup, that state-of-the-art, top-of-the-line medicine in the US (which Canada surely does not have, *ahem sarcasm*) sure works well when only the rich in America can afford access to it. Go look up the stats on health, mortality and morbidity, and see for yourself which country is serving it's population better as far as health is concerned.
And no, my taxes here are comparable to what I paid in the US. Also, if you win the lottery here, you get to actually keep what you win, because it is not taxed!

Nemesis:

The devil is in the details, dont you agree?

Let's see - a universal health care plan that would save the typical family up to $2,500 - but he makes not mention of how much this new scheme would cost the very same family a year in additional taxes. Plus what details of governmental instrusion and red tape his form of health care would involve.

Parkergrad

The health care system in Canada is full of good people, but it is such a bad system that the levels of service can be appalling. Imagine Woodmen's owning and managing the only grocery chain allowed in a country. How good do you think the service and selection would be? How innovative would the store be? How many people would be lined up at the border to shop on the other side?

Capitalism is the only moral and practical way to deliver any good or product, let alone an expensive and labor intensive one like health care. When you add the fact that there is potentially an unlimited demand for the service, it is simply impossible to deliver it with quality, with any other delivery system.

"If you think health care is expensive now, wait till it's free."

Just ask any Canadian or Brit.

Parkergrad:

You realize there is a canadian formulary for rx meds,right? Do you know the name "Stronach" and are you familiar with "que-jumping" in Canada? Guess what, this former MP did not want to wait the 200 days for an MRI (which is avg) in Canada and as a person with means she flew to California for surgery and paid for it out of pocket. Unfortunately, the mythology that state run medicine is superior to that of the private sector, takes precedent over the health of the individual Canadian.

9,000 Canadian-trained doctors are in the US. Why should we be surprised if some of the patients head there too? If Canada was good enough she would have stayed in Canada. Canadians are contributing over a billion dollars to the US economy that should have been spent in Canada if they had choices denied by the Canadian gov't. Not just for the medical treatments themselves, but the hotels, food tabs and other expenses needed to obtain rightful and timely health care - denied to canadians on their side of the border. I am happy it works for you-but the data shows that it does not work for everyone-and where does it work? Right here in the USA.

Couch:

I am sure that there are no duplicate social security numbers of patients who file for medicaid/badgercare-afterall, you have to be a US citizen to have a social security number, right?

Are you laughing?-because everyone else is.

Parker grad:

While I do not live in Canada, I work in the healthcare field in Cananda, US, EU, and Asia. I am in the health care field and I know exactly how the system works. We have health insurance problems, to be sure, but no "crisis," and no justification for converting the world's highest quality health-care system into another plodding government bureaucracy.

Do you live in suburban Toronto? just curious

TCB:
I now LIVE in Canada, after spending 25 years as a health professional in the US. I have posted in detail in another thread, that the "socialized" health care I have received in Canada has been on par, if not superior to, the health care I received in the US. I also live in an urban area here. It is hard to find physicians and specialists in rural Canada, as it is in the US (I lived in rural Wisconsin a majority of my life and can attest to that as well). I have heard complaints on both side of the border about waits for health care referrals. I have experienced lengthier waits for certain procedures from "privatized" health insurance in the US, because the "privatized" insurance companies restricted my access to doctors because they were not "preferred" providers. In Canada, I am allowed to choose my own doctor, not have the doctor "chosen" for me by a US health insurance company. Children get excellent health coverage here, regardless of income. No stigma of being called "welfare trailer-trash" here, like I witness all too often in the US if a person came in with a "government program" health card. The people in the US on "government programs" also are denied some services by the US and state governments, because those services are not on the "formulary". Doesn't happen here.
Maybe you shouldn't trash a health care system of another country with your "know-it-all" attitude unless you've actually lived there.

TCB, I work on BadgerCare, Medicaid and Medicare for the state. Illegal immigrants are not covered as you must have a social security number.

Ignore it then, it's not my problem if you end up in debt.
As far as the heath care issue, covering more of the population should be a priority. I support Mr. Obama's national health plan and do not believe it should be mandated for adults. I'll even give up a few dollars out of my paycheck if that's what it takes.

igotclout:

Are you saying in order to have an opinion on socialized medicine you must have experienced it?

How far does this nonsense extend?

40% of the US health care market is already socialized medicin- paid for by US citizens. Its called Medicare, medicaid, badgercare, etc. Millions of illegal aliens are taking advantage of this for free. As it stands today, no one is turned away based on their ability to pay. If someone is dying at Mercy's Emergency Department-the physicians and nurses do not place that dying person in a taxi and ship them to madison-it simply is not happening.

If you really want to see how well our neighbors in Canada like their system, go to Northern MI, NY, WI, MN, MT, WA, etc and witness the booming construction of new hospitals which admit and treat cash paying canadiens-why-because canadiens have to wait a long time to receive care, especially oncology patients.

In Europe, one of the fastest growing industries is the private health insurance industry. In Great Britian another fast growing industry is the growth of private hospitals catering to consumers who can pay with cash-guess where physcians are going....yes its to private paying hospitals. Guess where canadian med school graduates are moving to? The United States-why? Because Docs do not wish to work for lower wages in Canada.

Socialized medicine might happen in the US, however, dont look for it to happen overnight-hell the US passport office could not produce 3 million passports in a timely manner, why does anyone believe the govt bureaucrats will be able to consent and deny health care to 300 million Americans?

As for your experience in the Navy, I suggest you take a visit to the VA hospital in Milwaukee, Chicago, Denver, SF, Virginia and other large urban areas-they are under funded, dilapidated relics. Falling apart from the inside. Its an absolute tragedy they way health care is administered to our veterans-and its been this way for decades. Obama, Clinton, or McCain cannot wave a magic wand to make this fact disappear.

If you look at the little square at the bottom of this page where you type, it's labeled "Comment".
Sometimes a comment is just a comment.

theguyonthecouch,
You created a nice straw man, but I'm not falling for it. The issue here is privatized health care vs. universal health and not how I plan on paying medical bills if I get in a serious accident. Feel free to actually contribute to the debate. Same goes for you wisconsinheat; I had to read into it what you said because you never provided any of your own ideas.

DrTalk; Don't read into something more than is there.

You still haven't explained how you'll survive the cost of a serious accident. A few thousand dollars a year will not take care of a $500,000 bill.

janesvillegirl72,
Why don't we have universal auto care? That way if I have car problems everyone has to chip and help pay for it. And the government can tell us what kind of repairs and we can and can't have done.

Why don't we have universal home care? Because then if there are problems with my house, everyone has to chip in and help pay for it.

I have another idea. Why don't we universal cable service. I currently do not have cable TV. But since I want cable TV, I think everyone should chip in and help pay for it.

I said all this to prove a point. That there is going to a lot of problems with universal health care. Everyone needs to take responsibility for themselves. With complete privitized health care, the costs will be driven down by competing clinics.

wisconsinheat,
So you want government mandated benefits? The majority of business are small businesses and they can't afford to offer benefits. If the government mandates that they do, there's three possible outcomes: (1.) The business will pass the cost on to the consumers. (2.) The business will need to get rid of some of there employees. (3.) The business will do both of those. If the government mandates benefits and/or mininum wages, there comes a point where some of those business will have to close. A lot of jobs were lost when the government increased minimum wage. Jobs will be lost when the government requries employers to pay employees to not work for 7 days. The government thinks they are helping out, but they are not. It's best that the government stays out of issues like this. Start taking responsibilty for yourself and stop relying on the government to solve your problems.

deltafox is a fine example of a compassionate liberal. he/she would lead a cultural revolution and place everyone who disagrees or are republicans in re-education camps,and execute the unretrainable. After all, if your not for liberalism, then you don't deserve to live, right deltafox?

DrTalk. It would be nice if all employers were like yours but welcome to the real world.

I hope that you have at least $1m set aside because I know of people who have run up medical bills in excess of that amount.

DrTalk,
If employers are not required to give health coverage then there should be universal national health care that covers everyone, forget this private health care stuff it is not working. The quality of health care is dismal and having insurance companies tell me what procedures I can have done not my doctor is rediculous. At my place of employment you are not given a wage increase for waiving your health coverage. Also unless you are incredibly weathly you cannot afford a catastrophic illness or injury which can happen to anyone at anytime, please do not fool yourself thinking your savings will get you through something like that especially if you have a family.

Terror, terror, terror...that's all you rightwing-nuts have to talk about. And yes, I believe in freedom, nice talking point by the way, always question someone who doesn’t agree with your views with being patriotic. He questions the mighty W, must hate freedom. All you rightwing nut hypocrites talk about is small government, yet your pResident spends in record deficits for an illegal war founded on lies, and offers to pay for his war by taking away from less fortunate people, like children and seniors. Helicopters? Again your pResident is responsible for illegal wiretapping and email scanning of its own residents, while ignoring the law. Every time he is caught doing something illegal he brings up 9/11 to justify his illegal actions. For those keeping score, Iraq has killed more of our children than 9/11 did. Eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind. Oh, yeah…the guy responsible for 9/11, Bin Laden, have we brought him to justice? Nope! I was adding anti-bush rhetoric to balance all the anti-Democratic party rhetoric. Good day!

Did that darius wander over from some other discussion? I understand the answer, but can't help but wonder what the question was.

deltafox5674,
Why did you resort to anti-Bush rhetoric instead of debating the issues brought up in the article?

janesvillegirl72,
Employers should not be REQUIRED to provide employees with health care. Employers can choose to offer it as an incentive for you to work for them, but it shouldn't be required of them. Requiring employers to do it is tyranny. If they do offer health care, it's added into the cost of your employment and you get paid a lower wage. I took a job recently and rejected the employers health care package. As a result, they paid me a higher wage. I took that difference and started investing it. As a result, I won't have any problem paying any medical expenses. Try budgeting money out of every paycheck for health care. You don't have to get health care through your employer.

One of my favorite quotes is, “There are only two ways to fail: Listen to no one or listen to everyone.” When you are new to a job or business, it is important to find mentors who will encourage and guide you through the rough waters. Having a mentor is important so choose wisely. Ensure you are listening to someone who has achieved the future results you desire. Everyone will offer you their opinion, but sort through the noise and follow your mentors with results. When you become a leader, the challenge is more subtle. As a leader, you must be humble enough to hear the truth from your team. When you stop listening, you stop learning. It is important to have a subordinate who can speak openly with you. In the Biblical story – David was blessed with a Nathaniel to speak openly with him and call him out in love. Every leader needs a Nathaniel to graciously keep the leader living up to the high calling of leadership.

Robert Greenleaf said, “Even the frankest and bravest of subordinates do not talk with their boss the same way they talk with colleagues.” I am not suggesting subordinates blast their superiors, but I am suggesting that leaders should find wise counselors who can speak candidly. Warren Buffet is the greatest leadership investor of the modern era. When Warren Buffet speaks about companies, other people should listen. Warren said, “Of one thing be certain: if a CEO is enthused about a particularly foolish acquisition, both his internal staff and his outside advisors will come up with whatever projections are needed to justify his stance. Only in fairy tales are emperors told that they are naked.” I love the animal fable below, because it captures a priceless truth in business. Most people and organizations do not confront reality. Instead of addressing reality and thinking through the issues – they pass the buck and cast blame. I have never seen a long-term success that will not confront reality and accept responsibility.

Most people miss the fact that while there are power struggles between the Republican and Democratic parties, the upper levels are composed of family dynasties, similar to the extended royal families of other countries. They cooperate whenever necessary to remove threats to their continued rule.

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The Presidential election process in the U.S. is like the old Hertz vs Avis car rental battle ("We're #1" vs "We Try Harder"). They weren't competing against each other so much as they were mutually squeezing out the smaller competitors. A candidate making realistic projections, such as Ron Paul, will never have a chance against the Rep-Dem political machine.

According to Ronald Reagan, some of the most dangerous words anyone could ever hear were, "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help." With his characteristic home-spun, Reagan in that one little quip summed up what plagues much of the United State's current condition.
Author W. Cleon Skousen coined the term "Counter-Productive Compassion" to describe what I see displayed across nearly the entire landscape of national candidates for President. Somewhere, somehow, the American populace got it into their head that "the government" is responsible for solving the people's problems. Even most of those on the "conservative" side barely represent a conservative platform. It seems as though the citizenry has realized that they can vote "benefit providers" into office to serve their individual needs.

Don't get me wrong. It's not that we shouldn't care for the poor. It's not that we shouldn't provide cushion to displaced workers caught in industry shifts. It's not that we shouldn't get involved in addressing a whole host of human needs across our country. Of course we should. To do less would be cold, uncaring, and the farthest thing from compassionate. What I am suggesting is that we merely consider who the "we" is in these sentences. Exactly who should care for the poor? Exactly who should help the displaced worker? Our compassion is correct, our implementation is flawed.Why?
Because, just as Reagan indicated, governments are notoriously bad at executing (unless we are speaking of despotic governments, of course, in which case executions are some of their most efficient work). Have you ever had to work with or inside of a bureaucracy? If you have (and who among you hasn't invested hours inside a DMV or Secretary of State's Office?), you know exactly what I'm talking about. And the U.S. government, although founded upon some of the soundest political theory and documents the world has ever produced, is the world's largest bereaucracy. Worse, it has a nagging little tendency to continue to grow. With each new "program," no matter how well intentioned, the pig just gets fatter and bigger and slower and less effective. What began in compassion ends in a pile of paperwork and waste, with very little, if any, of the intended benefit actually finding its way to the proper recipient. If that benefit does reach the right place, often times the compassion then breeds entitlement instead of its original purpose. This is because most government programs, being so bureaucratic, are cold and impersonal, and therefore are not very caring, specific, or good at holding people accountable. Instead of a hand up, which is what most well-intentioned compassionate people hope to enable the government to provide, it turns into a hand-out.

So much talk about requiring this and requiring that. Do you ever wonder why the US is falling behind. European countries guarantee working people vacation, sick time and health care. And guess what they are healthier than the US as a whole. Healthy, happy employees are productive employees. I am not saying that employees need to be given in to on all their requests but sick time and health care seem to be the bare minimum. I dont need a company sponsored gym membership but I do need health care and it should be required either by my full time employer or the government as I have worked full time since high school and right now cannot get health care for my husband

deltafox5674, take your meds right away. The next thing you will see are black helicopters flying after you. I can not believe the left wing nuts that want the goverment to take care of them. That was tried in Nazi Germany and Communist Russia, it did not work out so well. Doesn't anyone believe in freedom anymore?

Hmm, lots of grumbling going on here (my mother would have said, "It looks like somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed"). Me, I know all those promises won't come true (neither will Hillary's or McCain's), but I'm just glad that someone is at least planning to try to do something for the little guy. There's been too little of that for a long time.

As for the complaints about new proposed labor laws...if it weren't for labor laws being enacted, children would still be working in factories, employers could work you as long as they wanted to and pay you as little as the market would bear. Used to happen...until protective laws were passed.

If you don't like these ideas (as some apparently don't), what exactly do you want a future president to do for you? I'm curious.

Hey living green, nobody forces you or anybody else to accept a credit card. I'm a college student myself, and broke most of the time, but I never use my credit card. There is something called self-control, learn to exercise it and quit blaming others for your mistakes.

The day I see a leftwing nut give a tax break to anyone or any company that pays taxes, I'll eat my copy of the constitution.

Ever wonder why the rightwing-nuts are so scathing about everything Obama does...could it be they see their 8-year reign of terror is rapidly coming to an end?

fisherhouse3,
If you don't like the terms of conditions of your employment, you can always find another job. All those items you listed can be negotiated. Ask anybody that works for a contractor. The less benefits you want, the more you get in wages. The more benefits you want, the less you get in wages. The goverenment should not be forcing stuff like this on employers.

DrTalk - Every employer should be made to give their employees 7 paid sick days. When was the last time you told your employer "Thank you for hiring me and just so you know, you WILL be paying me for 7 sick days." If it was left up to the employer they would give you 0 sick days. No paid vacations. No insurance. No nothing. All this costs them money.

Our system seems to require politicians to make promises that they cannot keep. If they tell the truth, they do not get elected or get laughed out of the race. Of course, you have to be a little crazy if you think you can win by telling the truth. That just makes a bad situation worse. Cynical? I'd rather be cynical than naive, but I'm just observing reality down here on earth.

I didn't say that I use my credit card on a regular basis, I just said that I have one. I know how to manage money, but I know a lot of individuals my age don't know how to manage money. In fact, a lot of Americans don't know how to manage their money and they also get into debt. I'm just saying that it is ridiculous to assume that everyone is in the same boat financially and credit card companies know this. If there is any sort of issues that need to brought forth it is the enormous power of the credit card companies. They are giving low income and high risk individuals credit cards knowing that they can't pay them off. It is unfortunate and disheartening and it isn't necessarily the fault of those individuals. It is the credit card companies and their practices that need to be examined.

"require every employer to provide seven paid sick days a year"

There he goes again with REQUIRING. Something like this should be a mutual agreement between an employer and the employee.

LivingGreen,
Not paying your bills is a choice. If you have a credit card and practically no income, why are you using the credit card? You are putting yourself into debt because you chose to use it. Don't spend money you don't have. I understand that there are setbacks which is why it's important to save money. It's not your income that matters, but how you manage it. Check out daveramsey.com and clarkhoward.com so you can learn to improve your money management skills.

interesting point skalb--so interesting that Obama mentioned this in his speech at GM, and acknowledged that promises from politicians have gotten us where we are today. Both Republicans and Democrats do this--that is one of the reasons some people don't like politics. So what's the solution? It's something that I struggle with during each election cycle. How do we trust the candidates to follow through and hold them accountable for what they say they will get done when elected into office? So many people just choose not to vote, but I don't see that as being very responsible. Any suggestions skalb?

DrTalk: You write crap about people not paying their bills. Guess what, it isn't a choice for most people. A lot of people aren't making a decent living and credit card companies are handing out credit cards knowing that people CAN'T pay. Also, life happens and accidents and illnesses and deaths happen. I don't know what world you are living in, but you are pretty ignorant. I'm a college student and I've gotten credit cards and I have practically no income. NOW, why would a credit card company give me a credit card? Because they know that people my age have a hard time paying and they charge extremely high interest and it is nearly impossible to pay back. Maybe you should watch the movie "Maxed Out" or you should read about the horrible practices done by the credit card companies because you are quite ignorant to the fact that there are alot of people out there that are hurting because of credit card companies.

Promises are great but like anything else if it sounds to good to be true it probbly is. After all he is a politician just trying to get the votes. How many others have made promises and look where we are at today!

"Reforming health care. Obama said his universal health care plan would save the typical family up to $2,500 annually on premiums."

They won't be saving $2,500. The government is going to make them pay more in taxes to cover the cost of health care.

"Requiring employers to enroll every worker in a direct-deposit retirement account that places a small percentage of each paycheck into savings."

REQUIRING? This is not a dictatorship;it's a republic. It's up to the people to decide what to do with their own paycheck. If they want to put some in a retirement account, fine. If they don't, that's their choic.

"Establishing a credit card bill of rights that would prohibit unilateral changes to a credit card agreement, ban rate changes to debt already incurred and stop interest on late fees."

Stop interest on late fees? If people paid their bills on time there wouldn't be any late fees and consequently no interest on late fees. People need to learn to manage their money properly; they need to quit spending money they don't have.

These proposals sound great, something for everyone. If Obama were running for King of America, we had unlimited funds, and there were no unforeseen adverse effects that would result from their implementation, some of them might even work.