VanGoh15,
Very well said. But what you have to realize is that these comments consist of the the full range of society. From the closed minded to the open minded. And everything in between.
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No matter how logical something may seem to be, the fact is human emotion plays into it. Probably to a degree that is far beyond what anyone here realizes or would care to admit.
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That is why we have to realize that most of these comments and opinions are worth what we have paid for them...nothing.
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That is also why, if someone is found guilty of a crime, something called a pre-sentence investigation is conducted. It is exactly as the name imply's; PRE-SENTENCE INVESTIGATION. Conducted by someone devoid of the emotional aspect of the case.
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So I hope you can know that many fine citizens of this community do realize what you and your family are going through and empathize with that while at the same time expecting justice to be served.

VanGogh15, I am glad you posted, people like to make assumptions that it's the family's fault. That's not always the case. I don't know why people are so quick to point a finger. I would guess that the majority of the people posting on here have at least one person in their immediate or extended family thats behaviors and actions are baffling.
I am also glad your brother has family support. It doesn't matter what he did, he still needs his family. Hopefully that support will help him turn his life around.

*** didn't check grammar sorry...

VanGogh15, I understand about siblings.

Let me introduce myself. I am Andrew’s oldest sister. And Yes I speak English. Oh and of course some Spanish. I believe that is known as being Bilingual. Amazing isn’t it. And to top off this amazement I graduated from the University of Wisconsin – Madison and worked two-three jobs all through college and high school. Even took loans off that I am still paying off today. Tuition… that is a whole new story. Let me stay on subject.

Not all kids turn out the same, even if they have been raised in the same household. There are so many factors to why people turn out why they do and do the things they do. Yes I can spiel out some reasons from some study from some renowned physiatrist or sociologist like many have done, but really what’s the point everyone agrees with what is best fit for them.

To the teacher at Parker High School:
Everyone is not anonymous. It’s the internet. Rule number one. Don’t ever write anything that you wouldn’t want your boss to see. It’s basically a rule of thumb.

I commend everyone who goes into the teaching field. There is a lot of responsibility that goes along with being a teacher. Especially with the economy and programs being cut etc…. It’s unfortunate that you have that label “teacher”. Labels come off real easily, you should look into it.

First and foremost the only reason I am” bogging.” to clarify that my mother is one of the hardest working individuals that I have ever known. I have learned to work hard because of my mothers influence. Yes we haven’t had much money thus this is where the hard work comes in. My mother by no means sits on her butt and expects the government to help her. Another fact we are all citizens. As a family we have always been there for each other. My mother has helped us in any way she could. My mother has never and will never give up on her children. I am sure many of you are parents and know how hard it is to raise kids, and even harder to try to raise a kids by yourself. Yes my mother has done everything to her capabilities to ensure that all of us are raised right.

After college I moved away to pursue a career (which I felt guilty about), but recently decided moved back with my mother to try to help her out. To give her some “breathing room.” I know she has been overworked both with family and work. She is the strongest and most loving person I know, so I implore to get your facts straight.

As far as my little brother goes.
I don’t have any comment.

Dini: Well said. I agree with your thoughts and opinions. It can happen anywhere and in any family. No one knows why, there are always different circumstances in every situation. I do not agree with what the boys did but in the end they made their own choices and they are the ones who have to live with the consequences of what they did. Things happen and until you have walked in another person's shoes you don't know what they have been through or suffered or why they choose to do things. One never knows how they impact another's life when they meet. One could be abused but choose to break that cycle when they are older. One could have parents who have done the best they can but it still isn't enough. Peer pressure is immense these days. So many variables on things that affect a person each and every day. People should try to remember that when you interact with someone you don't always know what is going on in their life but maybe if you give them a positive interaction (smile, hug, friendliness) that may be the only positive one they get that day (week, month, etc.).

Foofoo,
I accept your apology. A lot of people are racist or sometimes think racist things without even realizing. Perhaps it is true that in your heart you are not racist, and you just didn't think over how what you were saying sounded. Please just be more careful in the future.
Dini79,
I have always thought of Andrew as being innocent. (To avoid confusion, I don't know all of the facts in this story, and I'm not saying I believe he is innocent or guilty of the crime.) Even when I think of him now I think of how he looked and acted when he was just 5 years old. I too am angry at what he's got himself into. I can only hope that he's able to turn his life around.

FINALLY SOMEONE who is NOT making this a fight, and who is making logical sense from both sides of the spectrum. I thank you VERY much dini79 for trying to put a balance to this all.
Your help will not go unnoticed.

Yes, run, it IS terrifying -- and all the moreso when you know someone involved and never saw it coming.

So, I am not suggesting we bury our heads. I am instead suggesting that we come together and find out what the heck is at the root of all this, and work with people -- elected and otherwise -- with the resources and the know-how to try and stop it.

Have you ever noticed how someone for whom you've done a simple good turn -- chasing a paper they've lost across a busy parking lot, or offering to reach something on a shelf -- brings them from perhaps a place of anger and panic and isolation, to a place of cheer and gratitude?

Do I think chasing down someone's paper will stop them from shooting someone? OF COURSE NOT.

Do I think that offering dignity and respect to all people, and asking questions without judging, and permitting myself to wonder what on earth little thing I can do today for one person can change the world?

Oh, no. Not at all. At least not by myself.

And you bet I've been guilty of judging. I work hard not to, but it still creeps in, pretty much daily. I judge rude drivers without thinking that maybe they're on their way to the hospital, which just called them to say a loved one is there. I judge people I see who keep buying bigger and better and bigger and bigger without thinking that maybe this is the one act that makes them feel a little more insulated and safe. I even judge kids based on the way they present themselves, even though "some of my best friend are Goth." I'm not Christian, and I'm sure not perfect. I'm just asking: WHAT CAN WE DO, besides jump to conclusions, blame and judge?

I'm saying: There's more. And there are very good people at work in this community working to solve our problems. I'm saying, let's just join them. Shoot, read to a kid in a school once a week. Work overnight in a homeless shelter twice a month. Whatever. Let's put our heads and hands together and WORK.

All you have to do is call First Call to find out where you're needed. And EVERYONE can contribute. No speical skills or education required.

That's all.

Oh -- and hey, whythink -- you and I seem to be the ones willing to take an iota of responsibility for not seeing what Andrew did not want us to see.

There happens to be movement afoot in this city to try and prevent this sort of thing.

We couldn't help Andrew, but we might be able to help another young person -- as I know you have been working to do, and working very hard, all this year, and I thank you.

So you, especially, will understand that this new movement will come across a lot of naysayers and a lot of push-back. That's just it -- until your own is in some sort of trouble, you believe that your very best efforts will shield her from it.

But I have yet to meet a flawless parent who sees all.

Join our ranks, whythink -- we start tomorrow, literally. There's a meeting. You know who I am, so call me.

Oh -- and Yes We Can.

It is human nature to judge people, and dini79, if you say that you have never done so I'm not sure I would believe you. Yes there may be more to this story, but the fact is that these boys chose to take a gun and shoot someone. They may not always act like this, but they chose to do so in this situation. I'm sure you can understand the fear that this instills in the people in Rock County. It could have been me, I work out at the Y. This isn't simply boys making a mistake, it's life and death.

thekai, I know Andrew as the parent of a girl who went to school with him this year.

I have to say that I have no idea what possessed him to be involved in this act.

I don't know your family well. I do not live within the confines of their homes. And I especially do not live inside Andrew's head.

But I can tell you that I like Andrew personally, a great deal. More than most other young men, when we spoke, he was respectful and charming and intelligent. I'm angry at Andrew, because I know his potential. But more than anything, I am desperately sad -- for him, for his mother, and for his entire family -- that he has let this thing happen to him.

thekai, you and I know that the whole story is not on this page. Tell Andrew to say it.

People who respond to stories in this forum are so awful to others. It's heartbreaking. I think that people are so afraid of the possibility that one of their own could be capable of a stupid and life-altering choice that they simply cannot confront the possibility. I learned the hard way (and thanks for your good wishes in advance, but we're OK now) that a kid raised in the most responsible, thoughtful way can make serious and life-threatening mistakes.

I am not defending the perpetrators of this crime.

I am saying that, especially in this community, people will jump on whatever information they can get to try and make themselves feel bigger by trying to make others look smaller.

That makes smaller people of all of us.

There are serious juvenile problems in this community. They are in all KINDS of families. Here's a radical experiment: Imagine that the kids charged were white. How would these remarks have changed?

Imagine that they belonged to bank executives or folks with ranch houses and manicured lawns. (And for that matter, you don't know otherwise.)

Some of you talk about religion, but I don't hear very Christ-like attitudes in these posts.

Some of you talk about welfare, but I don't see you going to Andrew's home and finding out what's going on there, and if maybe your reaching out could be of help.

Insanity, you know, is when you keep doing what you're doing and expecting different results.

Reach out once.

I sure wish I'd known it was needed in Andrew's case. His family was working hard to see that he got what he needed to succeed. He screwed up -- one way or another. And you people don't even know the whole story. Some kids will take a fall for others.

I think Jesus would want you religion-speakers to treat Andrew and his family the way HE would (and does) treat them: With compassion, dignity, and forgiveness. Start there. Then call some of the local volunteer organizations and reach out, in any way, to any family who needs it. A little charity IN THE HEART goes a long way toward healing.

Blessings for all, including those with fear and hate in your hearts, and including the Morones family, and the families of the victims, and all involved in this nightmare.

FOOFOO-Your "Comminicaton" skills definitely need a look at. You claim not to be racist but your words do not back up the claim.
Why isn't anyone a addressing Mr. Krukar's background?

I will say this, I AM SORRY if I offended anyone of any color. THat was not my intention. Sometimes, one point trying to be made can turn into something completely off base. And I never meant for this to take a racial direction. I am not racist, nor would I ever want any of my children to be...and if I come off that way, then I need to re-evaluate my comminication skills. I am truely sorry. As I said before, I agree to disagree, and respect your opinions as well.

"I HIGHLY doubt this mother is working numerous jobs, I believe that she is probably sitting back collecting tax free money from OUR government and probably can't speak a lick of english. She could be...but I doubt it."
--Based on your personal opinion, and no knowledge of the actual person.

foofoogrl
Feb 19, 2008 at 10:28 a.m. (This comment was removed by the site staff.)

What was in that post that was removed? I believe it had something to do with you saying that my family was, in lineage, illegal, and hence, we do and teach illegal things. Also based on your personal opinion.... unless you happen to have my family tree?

The comment was removed in part because I suggested it be removed... I was highly offended. Apparently the staff agreed that it was an offensive comment to make.
Why do you think that people like me keep different races segregated? Because I was offended by you making fun of my race, and wrongfully criticizing Blacks and Hispanics?

THEKAI....It is people like you that continue to keep your race segregated. I in no way said anything that was racist. I have very good friends who are both black and hispanic. I like them for their individualism, not their color. I simply stated facts that are backed by truth. If it is hard for your to hear, I am sorry, but sometimes the truth hurts. There is NO DENYING that more hispanics in this country are seeking permanent residency then one's who are legal. Deny all you want, but it will not change the truth. Also, if you find the statistics I quoted regarding the population of prisons, deny again if you will, but before you chose to believe it isn't true, look into the percentages....you might be surprised at what you find. It is time all races unite and quit taking offense to things if they don't apply to you. If you are offended by something, that is your own problem, I would never say anything that is strictly based on my opinion from someone's nationality. I have no opinion on nationality, I have opinions on what we need to do to make these young men, and women too, become contributing members of society. I have never once cryed because someone said something dirogatory about my race, I am who I am, and I accept everyone doesn't need to like me. But everytime you turn around another race is stating that they don't have this or that because they are being descriminated against. We all have obsticales to overcome, and it is not productive to sit back and feel sorry for yourself because you feel society is not giving you a fair shake. Pick yourself up, and be responsible for making your own legacy. And ALL BABIES are born innocent. Period.

Well here is what i think the state should do. The state needs to start making examples out of all these kids not just one off them so that all the other kid that think about doing thing wrong will think twice.

The other thing is to make it alright for parents to take things into there own hands again and quit protecting these kid but i know ther is a fine line.

I hope they get the max from the judge.

foofoogirl.....
Except black or Hispanic babies, right? They aren't born innocent, rather, they are destined to end up in a gang, dieing a brutal death, or in prison unless they are extraordinarily different from most of the rest of their ethnic group. At least that's what you were implying earlier. My my aren't you a wonderful parent!? Maybe your kids will grow up to be bigots just like you. You aren't just generalizing, you are being prejudice and racist. My family is not some big group of illegal immigrants. My own father was born and raised right here in Wisconsin. Sure if you traced the lines back far enough, we didn't start in Wisconsin. That's a little obvious though, isn't it? I think that I only have one or two friends who, if you traced their family history back far enough, had part of their family start in Wisconsin before even the 17th century. Of course, back then it wasn't Wisconsin. As a little note to your nature versus nurture, I would like to add that young children learn from all sorts of things. The younger they are the more impressionable they are. Pookysand probably put it the best way you can. They learn from their environment. It is true that the parents are a large part of that environment, but they aren't everything. Also think about the kind of friends that people make when they grow up. The saying, "one bad apple spoils the bunch" doesn't come from no where, y'know. Please stop being so critical of my family when you know nothing about us. Further more, stop "generalizing" about different ethnic groups the way you are doing it. Racism isn't funny, and it isn't taken lightly.

You state a baby learns from it's environment. Precisely! Meaning it is innocent upon arrival....and parents (adults) are in control of the babies environment, therefore, in control of their molded behavoir. We can only control the future, not the past, so obviously, past generations are not relevant. Cycles need to be stopped at some point, and you can't stop a cycle in the past, therefore, we need to step up responsiblities in the future.

How have parents become lazy, and which generation do you want to pin it on? A baby is not born innocent, from a Christian standpoint. A baby learns from it's enviroment, not just adults. That's what I heard on the street, from Karl Jung, no less.

I agree to disagree on this matter, and will respect all views, but I will never stop believing that a child is born innocent....adults are the ones who mold them, with the exception of inherited behavoirs. We teach them everything down to fear. I just think parents have become lazy, and need to step it up. But that is my opinion.

Well, good for her that she is nice. I am happy to hear that. And I am happy to hear that she is a hard worker. You are right that kids hide things, there are always going to be some things your parents will never find out, but when what a child is hiding consumes their lifestyle, it would be immpossible to not see what is going on. Unless, the cheek is turned.

I apologize if I am coming across as judgemental...I actually am a very non-judgemental person. If you refer back to my previous posts, I acknowledge that these kids end up in these situations due to lack of guidance and love, and sometimes because of a mental condition. In my own defense, I am not "assuming" anything....I admitted to "generalizing". Generalizing is not always the right thing to do, but in these incedents, it is quite valid. Staistics that I am referring to are the behavoir of young men who grow up with absent fathers, the behavoir of young children who have parents that would rather turn them out on the streets to do whatever, so they don't have to deal with a problem that seems to hard, but then at the same time....say they would never give up their children...but they already did..they gave them to the streets. I am referring to statistics that stand behind the majority of men in prisions are black and hispanic....and for whatever reason their families ran into hardship, these men become who they are due to the fact that the poverty rate is high among these families, and that is not an example of a strong working comminity. I admit that there are kids that grow up under these situations as I did myself, and break the cycle, and there are also kids that end up like this that have noble parents. But what I am saying is, when you become a parent, your job it to bring your children up to be a prosperous part of society, and I don't care if you have to live in a cardboard box as long as all of your efforts are put forth into guiding your children. It is the ones who live in that box, and sit there while their children are running wild and could give a hoot where they are, because they are sitting there feeling sorry for themselves and blaming society for their hardship. THAT IS WHEN they need to be responsible and admit that doing the best they can is not enough, lose the pride, and turn those children over to someone who cares and will work their hardest to quide them, do not turn them over to the streets.

foofoogrl, I think you are being a little bit too judgemental of the acused person's background, unless you know him personally. I am not judging his family, I do however, disaprove of his actions.

Great! Keep on your own kids in hopes that they don't become one of those "thugs". But again you continue to judge and make assumptions on a woman you do not know. You may be right, she may not be working. But do you have actual evidence that this mother is what you believe she is? What are these "statistics" that you seem to think defend your judgement on this woman? My point is that there are too many people making too many assumptions about this family...and you know what they say about "assuming".

I HIGHLY doubt this mother is working numerous jobs, I believe that she is probably sitting back collecting tax free money from OUR government and probably can't speak a lick of english. She could be...but I doubt it. If the work ethic was there, then there would most likely be some of those ethics instilled in this child. I admitt that I am generalizing, but statics allow me to do that. There are good parents that end up with misbehaved children but that is when you shove your foot up their rear end, and follow through with your job, and do everything in your power to keep them on a leash if that is where they need to be. I don't need to go and volunteer at these community havens for children, I have children of my own that I have committed my time and heart to, and will make sure I am here to not allow my child to become a thug. If this happens, PARENTS wake up....you can "arrest" your own child. Be responsible adults.

Let me start by saying that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT condone what these young men did. We are all responsible for the choices that we make. However, I am shocked at some of the comments by some of the readers. I do not know this family at all but if I am to believe those family members that have responded, Andrew's father passed away a few years ago. So you cannot try to blame the parents (plural). I am not a single mom and hope to God that I am never in that situation. So I can not judge his mom as to how difficult it has been to raise the children and provide for them. I would guess that she has works more than one job and probably not been as visible at home as she would like. Are there crappy parents out there, oh yes! But if you don't know this mother, how can you sit there and judge her. Unfortunately, when some young men no longer have a father or possibly father-figure in their life, they turn to their "peers" for that guidance. That's where we start to see the "gang" involvement. Perhaps those of you who are judging the upbringing of this young man need to get off your back end and go do some volunteering for Big Brother/Big Sister and give some of Janesville's youth the role modeling you think that they don't have. And as for the comment about illegal aliens...why do people in this community see a Hispanic name and automatically decided that they must be illegal? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. There sure is a lot of assuming and judgements being made.

thekai,contrary to what you believe, if he is guilty, Andrew is NOT leading the life of a Christian!!! defend him all you want, but his actions show what he believs in...burning in hell!!

Adrew's parents didn't teach him that violence was the answer or that it was ok.

MyMaro....I agree with ALMOST EVERYTHING you just stated. IHAVEALIFE...I agree with you as well. The gangs in big cities are a WHOLE different ball game. I wouldn't want to even be in the same area code as these gang bangers. YIKES. But, I do have to disagree with one thing you said MYMARO...although these punks and thugs that reside in 53545 are not organized etc....I wouldn't necessarily call them a joke. They do pose a threat to the well being of my children, my family and yours as well. THis to me is NO JOKE. The organizational skills may be a joke, but the violence is not. They all need to be taken down, and as I said BEFORE, the parents need to be punished as well. We may not be able to punish them now, but there should be a new law put into effect from this day and age forth....you raise your children in a violent environment and teach violence...you will have consequences.

adriankoqueen are you really serious? You should really look into getting some tutoring. Apparently you can't read, I never said I knew Andrew personally, and if I did that would be a whole other can of worms.

To assume that I'm a "gang banger" is highly comical and you've really made my night by thinking you know anything in the least about who I am. Sorry to burst your little bubble but I am in no way a "gang banger" nor have I been one. I haven't said anything in previous posts for you to have logically concluded that, but it must have been merely out of your lack of reading skills or possibly your own creative mind...

gangbangers like these punks are just a bunch of wimps(wanted to use another word but know it would be edited) that cant defend themselves so they join one of these groups they claim are "gangs" here in janesville. and what is this Krukar punk doing pretending to be a Latin KIng? That makes it even the more comical. These arent real gangs, they are fantasy gangs. they see it on TV and think they are a gang. As a teenager i lived in Arizona and lost my best friend at a homecoming football game due to rival gangs deciding to shoot it out right at the game. these were actual gangs running around, not these punks we call gang bangers. you couldnt even wear certain colors out there for fear of being shot at. THESE WANNABES ARE A FRICKIN JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

itsourstugglesthatdefineus,
My hole is at least a safe one, you speak from experience are you a gang banger as well, maybe if your so in touch with this young man maybe you should have gave a hand to help him instead of blaming others as well. Try being a leader not a follower maybe he would have looked to you for help.

Whatever happened to accountability for your own actions?

Hey, we all have issues. But finding a .357, bullets, loading it, carrying it around town, finding some guys, raising the weapon, pulling the trigger, all takes some time. Plenty of time to figure out that MURDER is not some small, petty crap. This was not some sort of spontaneous, "Hey, let's break into a pop machine" prank. It took some time to orchestrate, and they had plenty of time to back out. Even angels break a wing, but this was attempted MURDER.

adriankoqueen: You wouldn't have a clue would you? Go back to the hole you crawled from.

These kids look like losers anyway, send them far far away and maybe the will get whats coming to them in prison.
You want to ask like a tough guy now you need to take responsibility for being STUPID!!!

Well thank you for clearing that up, I retract my statement then. Since we have many bible thumpers around whining on here, I was too quick to assume my apoligies.

Assumption taken that I meant faith and religion equate the same thing. NOT SO. I meant faith within your own heart, whatever you definition of faith may be. It can be universally agreed that faith, is a positiveness, and optimistic outlook on things. Faith would lead a person to making better decisions because they would be able to see that a positive outcome would come from different choices. I haven't attended church in over twenty years, but I do still have FAITH and I follow my own spirit. THat doesn't mean that I don't believe in higher powers, but I do follow my own spirituality that is within my own heart....as everyone posesses. Even if you don't believe in GOD, which is not what I meant faith to mean, you still know what is right and wrong, and you know if your actions are going to be detrimental to others or not, even if they in your own eyes will make you prosper. And I want to believe that a person's first instinct is to do right by others, not to harm others....and that is what I mean by having "FAITH".

You don't NEED "faith" to be a good person.

I don't think anyone can deny that these type of menaces have internal reasons and problems that drive them to these decisions.....BUT IN NO WAY SHOULD WE FIND COMPASSION for them while they are practicing the lifestyle. Maybe when they find faith and change their evil ways, and find some way to contribute to society in a positive way, and it is apparent that they have changed, then maybe compassion may be instilled. AND YES, parents are the ones who form their children (with the exception of mental health or some other predisposed condition) by the time they are 7 years of age. They are the ones who by this time teach their child what type of lifestyle they lead. Sometimes the child takes a different path, as I did, and chooses more appropriately, but most times they don't. They continue the cycle. No matter how LOUD you want to shout, or how long you want to preach, statistics and facts show that thugs produce thugs. THe majority of the blame does belong on the parents....and as far as those who 'do the best they can', if the best they can is not enough, grow up and become responsible enough to realize that you shouldn't have children until you are able to do better then the best you can. And if you have already conceived, there are many people out there that want your baby.....place the child up for adoption so they at least have a chance.

I guess I'll try to keep things in order...so to speak.

Per last post, I should be more specific with what I had said, I have strong ties with a member of Andrew's family. Save your retaliations I'm not in any way married, engaged or any other sexual way tied to this family member thank you very little.

Again I digress...

Gangs = pathetic outcries of misguided youth.
These two boys should be punished accordingly. Placing blame on everyone but themselves and their decisions is just a way to weasel out of punishment for the giant mistakes they have made.

Blaming teachers for their SMALL part in this? Well it really all depends on what teacher we're blaming. They say "those who cannot do teach". Well they forgot the handful of teachers who somehow escaped with the ability to "teach" (I use that term loosely) from a flippin' cracker jack box.

Now before you all get huffy with me, I know for a fact that their are "diamonds in the rough" for teachers out there and I can see that Whythink is most obviously one of them and I thank you for actually genuinely caring about the kids/pre-teens/teens these days. It is not easy to find teachers like you.

As for that JOKE of a teacher who calls one of these teens "trash" well I'm certainly sure you don't even know the half of what they've gone through and I'm sure a "teacher" like you doesn't even take the time to care. Hence the cracker jack box comment.

I am not religious so as far as the "God" comments I have nothing to say other than, believe what you will, about "God's presence" in their lives but as most decent religious people say, "Only God can judge me." So I'll leave it at that.

Then the more recent comment that makes me want to spit on half of the people in Janesville, Momof5 said:"If you stay out of their "neighborhoods", out of their gangs and away from their friends/family the chances of your house becoming "swiss cheese" is about as high as an airplane falling out of the sky and landing on your house." Now for the most part I've agreed with your comments on other articles but this is really disgusting. You DIDN'T need to address you've had nothing to do with gangs because if you are stupid enough to assume that would happen then we all already know you know nothing of it.
The reason I made the comment about "Janesvillites" is because sadly most of you all think this way and have no idea how to act maturely instead of pretending you're all still in your cliques from high school. Grow up!

All in all their has to be some give and take from all parties here, what these two did was wrong but I'm sure there were missing pieces in their life that led them to believe this was a good choice. Although they cannot solely blame everyone else. No one said they had to do this, and even if the other gang members did, there are always ways out. These kids deserve punishment but also a chance to change their lives for the better.

Oh man. I never wanted to get into these discussions but with very strong ties to family of Andrew, I feel I must.

But so many points to make, where to start?

Gang activity is everywhere and it is irresponsible for Janesville (or any community) to think "not here." However, Mariposa brought up a strong point. One cannot live in fear of their house being "shot up." While gangs do sometimes target innocent bystanders (ie gang initiations) generally their violence is not random but instead very targeted and concentrated. It is like a bee; don't bother it and it won't bother you. If you stay out of their "neighborhoods", out of their gangs and away from their friends/family the chances of your house becoming "swiss cheese" is about as high as an airplane falling out of the sky and landing on your house. I'm cautious but not afraid; then again I nor anyone in my home have ever associated with "gang bangers."

ihavealife: I'm sorry you feel so frightened by the outside world. I've lived much of my adult life in cities bigger than Janesville and much more diversified. I'm not trying to discount your concern, one should always try to remain safe, but one should also not give power to these misguided kids by letting them control how you live your life. I am asking for solutions, not blame. Blame gets us nowhere but more afraid of our neighbors. It has been proven that the prison system works for precious few offenders, not to say it should be abolished. There should be rehabilitation involved, a re-education of sorts, not just a throwing in of all criminals into one big locked box and hoping for the best. I'm not saying that crime isn't a problem in that town, I'm not saying that there isn't gang activity. There was gang activity when I was in high school there. I'm not blind to this. I'm just saying you've got to live your life without the assumption that some screamingly hormonal teenager with no purpose is going to come charging through your living room guns blazing, or see you through your curtains and cause mischief. Terrible things have happened to all of us from time to time, the things I have had perpetrated on myself are stunningly cold and frightening. I could live the rest of my life hidden away in my house, but I do not choose to let those people control my actions and my life any longer. I do not want to give them that power. Neither should you.

All these people should get the cane on their behinds. In public for all to see.Shorts to the ankles and bent over a pole.I'll tell you that if these parents had to endure a caning once,just once,They would keep those kids in line/in school and out of mischeif. I would applaud this. Humility is sobering thing. BRING ON THE CANE!!!!!!!!!

It's OK, seabee, I understand what you mean. I certainly wouldn't condone such behaviour. It is quite unconscionable. I sincerely hope that he turns his life around and that everyone else following that path does the same. I'm a down-to-my-roots pacifist and I don't comprehend how one could want to take such rash action, nor the machismo that comes up in gang society.

And thanks, wisconsinheat. But it had to be said. I don't know why he acted in this fashion and I'm quite sorry he did, sorry for the victim's family and for our own. I can only be grateful that no one was more severely hurt.

Sorry, haven't had any coffee yet today. I'm gonna go brew some now.

Take it easy seabee. mariposa was was addressing the misdirected blame in many of these posts. What she said has a lot of merit and I commend her for saying it.
No way did she say she condones such behaviour and by her posting it's apparent she abhors it as much as everyone else.

Mariposa,In relation to this story, I don't think that most of us care what race he is. We don't care about his background or struggles. We don't care that his father passed away. We don't care if God is in his life or not. We DO care about people doing drive-bys and runnin round the streets thuggin. He and his little thug buddies made a choice to enter a lifestyle detrimental to their own well being, and detrimental to a safe and orderly society. And by that I mean I don't want to have to be looking over my shoulder while walking down the street because the local thugs believe they have the right to do as they please. We are fed up with this relative of yours and all of the other thugs in this town. If we wanted this kind of atmosphere we would move to Rockford, Madison, Milwaukee or Chicago. And as for as praying for him, I pray he ends up in prison, for a long time. If this were my brother/father/uncle/nephew/friend, I would say the same thing. No tolerance for thugs or what they put the rest of us through!

OK, I debated whether or not to post anything on here because I quite dislike debate of this kind (one founded mainly on conjecture and prejudice), but as the accused is blood of mine, and my sweet brother posted earlier, I've decided to participate.
1. Stop blaming the teachers. They cannot be our Atlas and hold up the world, all of its blame, all of its praise. They are human, good and bad, just like the rest of us and they had little, if anything, to do with this incident.
2. Stop blaming the parents. It is difficult to make blanket statements with any truth in them. Sometimes an absence of parents is the cause of matters such as these. Sometimes the parents do the best they can, work as hard as they can, but cannot forestall any wrongdoing on the part of their progeny. We have all gone through a period wherein our parents could not control us. For some of us, that included small indiscretions, indifference, petty hatred or frustrating actions. For blessed few of us, it has included criminal behaviour. I can only hope that Andrew becomes a better person for this and learns the error of his ways; however, it is not his mother's fault. Also, do not blame his (admittendly absent) father, either. He passed several years ago. Let us leave the dead where they are. I miss my grandfather very much, and your libelous words will not tarnish my memories of him or his family.
3. Stop blaming all together. Please. I do not know why he took this path, nor do you. This is all malicious inference. Treat the individual. Separate him from the generalizations you may have about Hispanic people, generalizations you may have about young people, generalizations you may have about errant people. Don't make excuses, make solutions. And if you had called his house to make a complaint about his behaviour, you would not have had to find an "english speaking cousin " [sic] as his mother and siblings speak English.
I am sorry to have seen so many people choose this path. I am sorry for the judgements I have made upon them myself. But please, do not compound the situation by asserting that we do not have God (we do), that the parents and families do not care (we do) and that the teachers closed their eyes (few do). And open your eyes and your hearts and your heads. Pray for forgiveness, pray that these men will find their way, pray that our society will allow for more rehabilitation and less anonymous incarceration. Do not judge. Pray.

Yeah, if all this is the teachers fault/responsibility, I may have to change my position concerning their desire for a pay raise.

I am sitting here wondering after reading people expressing blame upon teachers, are you KIDDING ME? Where in the heck do you even get the idea that teachers are even a part of this equasion? Sure, in a rare occurance a steller teacher may make a difference in a wayward teen...but that is just a blessing, not something that is in the job description. As I stated before, we all need to understand how these children end up in these gangs, and become enranged at society, it is because of the lack of guidance and love from their parents. These kids do need to be dealt with, obviously, but by the time they are committing these serious crimes, they are pretty much dedicated to the lifestyle, and will most likely unite with others of the same destitude in prision or juvie hall etc... This is why we need to make it a universal mission to eliminate bad parents. They are the ones that begin and continue the cycle, and until we do something about deadbeat parents, and stop rewarding them with state aid for being useless thugs that sit around and breed and create new generations of thugs, these types of kids are going to only get worse. I still believe people should have to have a license to breed.

pigbrain: Very well-stated. Perfect! However, some will still find some backward, crazy-ignorant reason why it is still the teachers' fault.

My experience:
Teens are harder to deal with and are potentially more violent than adult offenders. They act on pure emotion of the moment with no thought of consequence.
HS teachers have a stressful and dangerous job when gang bangers and posers infect their classrooms. I find it hard to hold teachers responsible for student's choices. I believe, based on my experience, the trouble begins for the vast majority of HS students long before HS. I find it ignorant to blame a teenagers bahavioral patterns on an adult he has no past with. The home environment is where the core values are first learned.

luvujvl: Yes, you WOULD want your kids in golf1's class. billnewbie: Yes, even I agree with your philosophy of "Expell anyone who is incorrigible". Get them out of our classrooms so that we can work with the kids who appreciate school and the opportunities an education offers. However; the two big problems with expelling kids are 1: Now they've got even more time to get into trouble. 2: Where will these people be in 10 years or so? Are they going to "find their way" on their own and become productive members of society? It is not that perfect of a solution, so that's why we keep hammering on these kids in regular schools, charter schools, virtual schools, alternative schools, etc. We've gotta give them somewhere to go, and keep our fingers crossed that somehow, some way, we will hook 'em.

I used to work with juvenile gang members. The answer to how they become gang members is not easy. However, it does boil down to if they don't feel like they belong at home or at school, they turn to the streets to belong. Most human beings have a desire to belong.

Amen!

I remind my teen-aged students weekly that this is a concept my own (much younger) children are already very aware of.

Hire scary principals for one. If we consistantly expell troublemakers, ther will be fewer and fewer to expell. Frankly, if some parents won't support discipline in the schools then teaching their progeny should be their problem, not the public schools'. And it would help if the schools wouldn't undermine values taught at home, with things such as amoral sex education,(not immoral,amoral), and the eradication of respect for religion in general, all religion.

People turn bad for various reasons...
bad teacher...
bad parent...
mental abuse by someone...
physical abuse by someone...
drugs...
There are many reasons that they go bad. However, the person held accountable should be the person who went bad. Otherwise they will just have another excuse which lets them off the hook.

billnewebie- I couldn't agree more! Isn't that how things used to be? The principal was scary and the thought of Mom or Dad finding out was incomprehensible. So...how do we get your plan to work?

luvujvl - Thanks. We don't hear that very often. I would love to tell you where I teach; however, my willingness to be so vocal might not be appreciated by all. I just hope I am lucky enough to have your kids in my room. If Jvl had more parents like you, we'd be close to solving a lot of problems.

Again, golf1, please let us all know where you teach because YOU are what we are looking for in an educator for our kids. Hats off again.

If there is no discipline because suspensions don't work, then there is always the silver bullet. Expell anyone who is incorrigible, and only let them back into a special school. Yes, money will be lost with state aids withheld. And special schools cost more. But that beats having a school full of bullies and their victims.

I apologize if I just shifted the blame to the administration and the parents. My point is this: at the end of the day, when the students have disrespected the teachers, the administration has handed down more expectations because of their pressure from the community as a result of test scores, and the community has labeled us over-paid babysitters it is often a matter of choosing my battles. I wish we could all work together to turn this district around. It needs work! These kids need help. When I find my hands are tied, I go back to what I know, my love for the kids and my love for what I do.

Yeah yeah - but if parents can't handle one instance of bad behavior then how can you hold teachers accountable for handling 30+ instances of bad behavior, every hour, seven times a day? It's the PARENTS JOB. Would be great if teachers could lend a hand - and I think they do try - but in the end it is the PARENTS responsibility.

Are you saying that ther is nothing teachers can do? I know it isn't easy, but surely teachers can do something. Will no one in authority listen to you? Do teachers have no authority of their own? Certainly ,administrators have more responsiblity for discipline than teachers, and are more to blame, but if teachers are ignoring bad behavior then that only serves to reinforce it.

golf1, where do you teach? I might consider changing schools so my kids could be in your classroom. My hat is off to you.

Sorry - that posted in a confusing way. Here we go...

Billnewbie: Here we go....
"How many times are bad students promoted just so the teacher won't have to deal with them next year?"

1. Wwwaaaayyy too often. If it were up to the teachers, the kids would stay and learn the material. Unfortunately, and obviously not understood by many, it is not our decision if the child stays to repeat the grade or gets shuffled through the system. Look into the fine lines of the summer school requirements. An interesting read.

"How many times has truancy been overlooked for expediancy's sake? How many times has hooliganism been ignored in the hallways because it's too much trouble to do something about it?"

2. You are right. Often these things are ignored by the teachers because they've learned that all the procedure-following and paperwork-completing in the world isn't going to change the way the habitual offenders are treated. There comes a point when time spent on discipline is exchanged for time spent on curriculum since discipline seems to have fallen by the wayside these days. Even if the habitual offenders were held accountable for their actions by the teachers and then the administrators, there is still one last stop to make and often no one is home to care. The kids know this. Detentions are meaningless. Parents don't care. Kids laugh at the consequence - when and if they even decide to attend.

"How often are students humiliated in class as a form of control by teachers,or ignored when done by other students? I've even seen teachers join in with other students as they humiliate fellow classmates."

3. I hope like heck you reported those teachers you witnessed humilitaing students in class. Please don't judge us all by that. Visit a few more classrooms. Remember, we chose this field. We like kids. We want to help.

Billnewbie: Here we go....
How many times are bad students promoted just so the teacher won't have to deal with them next year?

1. Wwwaaaayyy too often. If it were up to the teachers, the kids would stay and learn the material. Unfortunately, and obviously not understood by many, it is not our decision if the child stays to repeat the grade or gets shuffled through the system. Look into the fine lines of the summer school requirements. An interesting read.

How many times has truancy been overlooked for expediancy's sake? How many times has hooliganism been ignored in the hallways because it's too much trouble to do something about it?

2. You are right. Often these things are ignored by the teachers because they've learned that all the procedure-following and paperwork-completing in the world isn't going to change the way the habitual offenders are treated. There comes a point when time spent on discipline is exchanged for time spent on curriculum since discipline seems to have fallen by the wayside these days. Even if the habitual offenders were held accountable for their actions by the teachers and then the administrators, there is still one last stop to make and often no one is home to care. The kids know this. Detentions are meaningless. Parents don't care. Kids laugh at the consequence - when and if they even decide to attend.

How often are students humiliated in class as a form of control by teachers,or ignored when done by other students? I've even seen teachers join in with other students as they humiliate fellow classmates.

3. I hope like heck you reported those teachers you witnessed humilitaing students in class. Please don't judge us all by that. Visit a few more classrooms. Remember, we chose this field. We like kids. We want to help.

I never meant to imply it was simple. The public schools are incubators of anti-social behavior. It is not all the teacher's fault, but they are not without blame.

golf1: exactly. Teachers mean well. But there is only so much teachers can do, no matter how hard they try. It is the parents who shape the students who that teacher receives into their classroom, and it is the parents who need to fix the problems. Teachers can try all they want - and many, bless their hearts, do try - but they can't fix the world no matter how bad they want to. Parents and family (and the kids themselves) are the ones who carry both the kudos for successes as well as the blame for failures. NOT teachers.

whythink:

Aren't parents a larger part of society?

billnewbie: It's not that simple. Shooting people and graduating top of the class are like apples to oranges. If a former students runs into a burning building, for example, and saves another person's life, are their former teachers taking credit for that student's bravery and quick thinking? I don't think so. At least, I don't know of any who do.

And, luvujvl: I agree, teachers can't fix everything. What Joe Public needs to understand is that most teachers truly WANT to fix everything. Unfortunately, there isn't enough time, money or support to do what we would if we could. I agree, teachers are a big part of the "village"; however, it's hard to do our part when we don't have the faith backing us from the rest of the "village".

Yes !!

How many times are bad students promoted just so the teacher won't have to deal with them next year? How many times has truancy been overlooked for expediancy's sake? How many times has hooliganism been ignored in the hallways because it's too much trouble to do something about it? How often are students humiliated in class as a form of control by teachers,or ignored when done by other students? I've even seen teachers join in with other students as they humiliate fellow classmates. luvujvl, are you that far removed from your experience at school that you can deny that things like these happen almost daily in public schools? Aren't things like these the reason you send your own kids to private school?

luvujvl
Aren't teachers a key part of society?

billnewbie :
I disagree. Maybe the teachers feel some degree of satisfaction when their troubled students achieve some degree of success. And they should, if they had something to do with turning that particular child around and motivating them. But the failures are not the teachers' fault.....the teacher can't control the home environment or the psyche of the kids handed to them due to whatever history that kid has. Teachers can't fix everything - that isn't their job. It is the parents job. I don't agree with throwing blame somewhere, anywhere, to give an excuse - but if blame is to be thrown it should be in many different directions - kids themselves, parents, community, society, but not teachers.

luvujvl:
Teachers can't have it both ways. They claim credit for the success of their students. But, when students fail, they want to place all the blame elsewhere. If they are going to demand credit, then they have to share blame. They don't deserve all the blame, nor all the credit. But they do deserve some of each.

How in the world can you blame teachers ?? The teachers only get what the parents throw their way. They do the best with what they've got. Shame on you all for blaming the teachers - let's talk parents, shall we? Grandparents? Neighborhoods? Society in general? But don't blame the teachers. (No I'm not a teacher.)

What a gracious response that was spunky! Every teacher in Janesville can hold their heads up high after that. You have truly proven how much you deserve the support of this community today.

If it smells like poop, and looks like poop, it's probably poop.

whythink///// that was good and so true.. a teacher should of never wrote those things. but look thats whats wrong with these schools TEACHERS like that.

i just like reading all this everyone writes its either so funny or stupid. does anyone really know the real story of what happend or just believe whats printed in the paper?? maybe the DA will dismiss their charges too and then what?? after ruining their name showing their pictures paper/news. do they have evidence or hear say. i dont understand why people get off on trashing on others not even knowing the facts. maybe when this is over then print the truths of the story.. idk my opinion i guess

Spunky
I truly hope you are retiring or resigning from your teaching position because any, ANY teacher who views any student as "trash" needs a new line of work ASAP. If you are speaking of Andrew, the only boy involved in this incident I know, it is especially pathetic because he hasn't been in a regular school since the age of 14 and NO 14 year-old is a "piece of trash."

Andrew, it is a shame you were willing to be so blindly dedicated to criminal activity and it has likely ruined your life. Andrew was a model student for me and a great student leader. Although I knew of his gang involvement (I never imagined it was this serious) he never brought that crap into the classroom. He respected the school and his teachers / school staff enough to separate his two lives. I feel fortunate to have taught Andrew and I am personally broken hearted at the thought of him with a felony conviction on his record. Andrew is an extremely academically smart young man and it is ashame he couldn't use those smarts to leave, and lead others out of the this criminal gang lifestyle.
I hope Andrew is able to fix his life and grow up so when he gets out of jail he can lead and teach others about how gang/criminal behavior is wrong.

As a teacher I have failed...I failed Andrew and I do take part of the blame.
Andrew, I am sorry!

Trash was the easiest way to describe this individual without giving you an essay. I said it to make a point, sometimes a point people don't want to hear. Everyone gets a fair shake in my classroom, but it was a typical case of show up 2 or 3 days a week and wonder why you're failing, not an uncommon story. Don’t forget about getting excuses 45-52 of 200 for why this person is gone. Call me cowardly for saying it here, but the anonymity here allows for more honesty. Sometimes honesty is not very politically correct. It is very true that schools give too much of a warm fuzzy atmosphere. Sometimes that helps students; sometimes it justifies their misguided attitudes and apathy. They get 20 second chances up to the point that they screw up bad enough and get thrown in jail. I’m sure there are plenty of reasons/excuses these individuals are screwed up. Try to address these problems and help them, but the bottom line is follow the rules or face the consequences.

These type of children make me sick, but at the same time, I need to responsibly admit that they ARE in these gangs because of lack of guidance and dicipline and LOVE from their protectors, their parents. Therefore, with all children needing to feel protecting and love and acceptance, whether they knowing acknowledge it or not, they seek this in the gang community that is made up of a group of kids that lack these same things in their lives. So, when you look at the facts with compassion, it is almost impossible to not feel for these lost souls. The choices they make as far as murdering, drugs etc....are just part of their world, and it becomes just as normal to them as eating dinner at the table and reading bedtimes stories are normal for a healthy functioning family. In their eyes and brains, they feel that what they do is a source of survival...just like animals in the wild. With that said, and understanding why these things happen, I also have to say, that there is no excuse for these kids to do what they do though. Although juvenile brains are not cognitively developed and most don't comprehend the long term effects of their actions, so that is where the responsiblity of adults should come in. The gang bangers that are recruiting these children and the useless parents that contribute to the detrimental effects of neglect should viciously be sought and punished as well. We need to stop the creators of the violence. I truely believe that people should have permits to breed.....it should be a privledge to have children, and instead of our congress continually fighting over the rights of abortion, they should turn their efforts into the basic right to conceive at all.

Janesberghillbilly: Your last comment makes no sense. It is equal to something like this --- "When I was in high school, there were no microwave ovens yet. Coincidence? I don't think so."

wisconsinheat, we're waiting for your treatise on the subject.

We're waiting for your treatise on the subject.

As usual I am confused. Were two guns involved in the incident? If so, where is the second one and who let a 15 year old get his hands on a .357 Magnum? Was it an irresponsible adult? Was the gun stolen? Was the gun supplied by a gang member?

Everybody tries to analyze complex problems with simple solutions. It doesn't work .

To the teachers that have posted here refusing responsibility for the actions of these young men, you are right in saying that these youngsters were beyond your control. However, it is true that public schools do seem to promote an undeserved feeling of worth and entitlement among its students, which, whether you agree with it or not, you have been an active participant in, as you are required to support the philosophy of the school system for which you work. The schools do, from time to time, interfere with parental authority when they suspect that corporal punishment has been used, as if a bruised butt or cheek is a criminal assault. Between the police, the courts, social workers and school councilors, parents can be intimidated to the point of abandoning discipline. Alternatives to public schools are prohibitively expensive, and efforts to make them available to all have been blocked by the teacher's union and their friends in the legislature and the governor and other elected officials throughout the state to whom WEAC has made large investments of campaign contributions in an effort, it seems, to eliminate competition. Therefore, like it or not, you do bear some responsibility.
And it's preposterous to suggest that non-teachers cannot understand the problems that teachers face. If you want respect and support from your community, you should be prepared to offer it as well. Those kind of condecending comments suggest an assumption of superiority. That may work in the classroom, but it does not build the support that you demand from the community.

Teachers are the thing line between barbarism and civilization. Don't blame the teachers.

Yes, blaming the teachers is nuts. What shows up in class is produced at home.

I had one of these misguided youths a while back. He was a piece of trash then and apparently still is a piece of trash. I saw him for 50 minutes a day, which is to say I saw him for 150 minutes a week because he was either, at a case manager meeting, at a PO appointment, or just plain skipping. Don't blame me or any other teacher who saw him for 150 minutes a week for this low life's actions. In high school, the philosophy should be "here it is, take it or leave it." The majority takes it; the losers leave it and blame everyone else for their stupidity. Instead the philosophy is how do we blame the teachers and exonerate the administrators and parents? Try to call home to explain the latest problem you had with him, you have to talk to a cousin who speaks English. Kids like this milk the system for as much lack of responsibility as they can get. If you think picketing from 7:20 to 7:40 caused this, you come in on your own free time and advise the “here’s how not to shoot somebody over a girl” club for idiots. Bring back the wood sheds.

golf1: Thanks. Now, if we get a snow day on Sunday I will have to go to church an extra day during Lent in order to make it up.

golf1: Sometimes you just gotta consider the source.

He'd probably offer that because studies show that rehab does more good than hard time.... chances are, doing time in prison will only increase notoriety. It's almost more of a gamble than a solution...

janesberghillbilly: Really? You REALLY want to go THERE? Okay, let's. I knew eventually this post would turn these teens’ actions into the teachers' fault. Isn't the war in Iraq the teachers' fault, too? Let's get something straight hillbilly, if you do not teach in the SDJ, 5 days a week, you can't possibly begin to understand what a teacher's role is in the upbringing of an adolescent. Clearly you have no children, or you wouldn't have made a blanket statement about the fact that these boys made a bad choice because their teachers didn't teach them better. However, that might explain the large disrespect in Janesville toward the teaching community. Get a clue. Get a backbone. More importantly, get the facts. Find out how teachers struggle to make these kids more accountable for their work, their actions. Find out how teachers are constantly met with brick walls with regard to requests for support in going back to the old days where kids had to earn the respect they got to gain the self-esteem they had. These two boys were rude, disrespectful, lazy and flat-out uneducated several years ago while “the system” enabled them to save their self-esteem so they would feel some success and magically become intrinsically motivated to become better and do well for themselves. Yeah, that worked. Ya know, it might snow up to a foot on Sunday - I bet the teachers have a hand in that.

And one other thing, why would O'Leary offer that plea to either of these two?

I've been confused before plenty but I haven't SHOT anyone over it. Give us all a break on his holiness, although hopefully he'll find it again in prison.

mytake4u----------
I'm not pulling anyone's leg. You don't know me and you don't know my family. We are all very religious. Some people tend to get confused from time to time, but I offer myself as living proof that we walk with god. Who are YOU to judge anyone? Judge ye not, for that is for the Lord and for the Lord only.

Hey I would love to slap the snot out of em. Problem is, that is what we call assault. And if I do a real good job of it, that is what we call homicide. So, all we can do is call the cops. At this stage of the thugs' developement, parenting will never work, well, maybe not never, but not enough to make me think any better of the problem.

oh ya SeaBee! i agree totally. instead of the alternative of slapping the snot out of them call the law for ANYTHING. the more the non-parenting parent(s) have to go downtown and/or deal with the cops the better. it's obvious "thekai" you are pulling everyone's leg, unsuccesfully i might add, about the holyness of this family. they may be in God's thoughts and love, but it is a given that God is not in their thoughts and love or they would have "RAISED THAT PUNK RIGHT"!!! now get rid of all of them!!!!!!!!!

I'm not a parent, and I don't have kids. But it seems to me that what is lacking in this case, and often in this culture, is a lack of respect. For kids, for parents, for authority, for each other...

Actually, all of the thugs involved in this shooting go to Parker.

Gangs? Why to hear it in the past, from the authorities, there weren't any such things in Janesville. Do you suppose they had it wrong?

If you check the Wisconsin Circuit Court Access site, you will see that the charges against Lopez and Lowman were dismissed today. It really is great to see that the court system is willing to give them another chance so they can be back on the streets (and Lowman at Parker) to carry on their gang activity.

billnewbie,

Correct, the therapeutic industry is only one part of a constellation of things that produce this kind of behavior.

I have a convoluted theory about one of the reasons junior is allowed to do whatever he wants. Today's parents themselves are unhappy with not being happy all the time. They have their own sense of excessive entitlement. These parents need someone to blame for the fact they are not continually happy. So, they blame their own parents for every bad thing (little or big) remembered from childhood. They've learned from the therapeutic industry that everything bad from childhood is trauma and life altering in the negative sense.

In order to correct the error made by their own parents, today's parents are servants and enablers for junior's every impulse, wish, and demand. The result is a nurtured psychopathology in the form of excessive self-love or excessive self-esteem.

These two guys should have learned the correct way that such behavior is unacceptable. Now they will learn that lesson the hard way: from the full force of the backlash from the damage they've done.

This little thug culture we have in this town has been growing at an alarming rate. It's time for the people of Janesville to put it to a stop. You see a little thug acting up? Call the cops. Stereo thumping too loud? Call the cops. Violating curfew? call the cops. Look at you funny? call the cops. We have all been too tolerant of these little dirtbags. They are trash. It's time to take out the garbage.

TJNCJ,

He IS a part of my family. I've known him ever since he was a little kid. My family is very tight knit, and I know for a fact that God is in his life as well as mine.

gazettefan:
I agree completely. It's not just therapists though. They teach the same philosophy in public schools as well as in many homes. The kids have been taught all about rights, but responsibilities are alot more difficult to teach. It takes firm discipline to raise kids correctly. Discipline is very unpopular with the professional classes such as doctors, lawyers, politicians, social workers, judges, and school administrators. And many parents find it much easier just to give junior what he wants than to deal with the tantrums that will ensue if he is denied his desires. No, most kids don't go this bad, but look at all the trouble they have with them in school, and the alcohol and drug abuse as well as rampant promiscuity.

thekai-Maybe God is important in part of your family, but definitely not "Andy's" otherwise he wouldn't be where he is.

As for the other guy, I'm sure the plea bargain included turning on his homeboys so he turned it down to save his other gang-banger buddies.

One of the reasons this sort of thing is going on is the overselling of self-esteem by the theraputic industry.

Mark my words, if some kind of therapist gets involved on the defence side of this case, we'll hear that these guys did what they did because they have low self-esteem.

The truth is, many young people have been made to believe that they should have high self-esteem without having earned it.

When anyone goes around wildly committing crimes they carry the belief that they can do so with impunity. This right to power comes from an exagerated (unearned) sense of self-worth.

Whether or not these two have been in therapy, the theraputic industry's word has gotten out: Feel good about yourself for no reason. With this comes the feeling that you can do anything.

Krukar would have only had to spend less than 2 years at that school for his plea...Now he could face way more than that in prison rather than at a SCHOOL..where maybe he could learn to make better choices. Seemed like a no brainer to me...

Andy is my uncle... God is very much in all of our lives.

My heart goes out to the all the families involved, but mostly the Moronez family because I know them. They lost their father not to long ago and are now losing Andrew due to a stupid thoughtless act on his part. I think it's sad that all these kids think that being in a gang and shooting or harming someone is a justifiable way of dealing with situations such as girl troubles.

where in the world are the parents? do the parents need to be charged with neglect because of not instilling moral values and dicipline? i believe so. i think the custodial parent should get 2-5 years and the daddy(who is probably not around) should be found and given 5 years. maybe then other parents of these thuggy type BOYS may get the idea. did the girl that this incident was over antagonize/deploy the group? if so, she should get some time also. after sentencing they should be banned from ever returning to janesville. the families (loose use of the term) should be ran out of town!!!!!!

The tough guys comment was meant to be sarcastic. I in no way believe these children are tough. They're cowards and degenerates who couldn't handle their problems face to face.

Tough guys? Shooting at unarmed people at a safe distance qualifies as cowardice to me.