OptimusPrime: Yes, that is the article I was referring to in my response to mytransam. Thanks for inserting the link!

optimus,nina and mytransams: Thank you for bringing up and finding the article. I found it to be very interesting. IMO, Janesville appears to be doing everything just the opposite of that. I've been wondering about the Studer Group that is doing the studies on the district. They are doing this free for the JDA, maybe because of his former ties to Janesville. I can't remember how many millions this would cost if the district were to pay for it. My concern is that the JDA won't listen to what they (Studer Group) have to say quite as much because it is free. I think the Studer Group already said that it is important to keep employees happy and they didn't listen to that. I relize that there is more to that statement then just giving the teachers exactly what they want but they need to give something. Thanks for the article.

Nina:
Is this that article? If so, everyone should at least read the last sentence on page 5.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/...

Oops, my bad "mytransam", the merit-based pay for dentists comparison is on THIS article...duh...definitely time to decompress for the evening.

mytransam: I have only recently begun researching the complex issue of merit-based teacher pay - and while I feel that a very, very, very, very, very, very, carefully constructed type of plan MAY be a good thing, there are some very, very, very, very, very (you get the point) SCARY examples of merit-based teacher pay. Once I started looking into it, expecting it be complex, I realized it was even MORE complex. There was, forgive me for not remembering the title, just recently a well-thought out (pro and con) article in Time magazine (I caught a link to it through yahoo within the last week). You might find it interesting reading in terms of how hard it is to truly create a fair system when dealing with "outcome based performance" when we are dealing with such complex "products" - our students! So many other factors to consider...One example that you mentioned that scares the you-know-what out of me is student ratings...I know I could get some strong ones, but I know there are some classes, groups, individual students who would just love to give a poor rating as a power trip or act of vengeance because I told him/her or a friend of theirs to put a book away, pay attention,etc. Some would rate "pretty teachers" higher and those that show videos all the time as "superb" and then the opposite...anyways, you get my drift. I have strayed too far once again, so I reiterate, try to find the Time article; it was quite interesting and presented many issues to consider. Also, look at a posting just put up this evening on the story "school board responds..." using a comparison of merit-based pay for dentists. Have a good night mytransam...won't be back on here for awhile...have work to do and life to live outside of this darn computer!!!! :)

Outdoor - that's great!! How true.

I have an actual question - on the DPI site it says average salary, around 44,000; average fringe around 19,000 - so is 43% of the average salary package going toward benefits? (premiums,s.s., retirement...)

I like it spunky!lol

This was circulated a couple years ago with regards to NCLB. I did not create it, but I am simply using it to show the difficulty of evaluating teachers based on performance of students. I apologize for the length of it, and it has even been shortened, but you get the picture. If you look at the schools in Janesville, you will see a huge discrepancy between the poverty level among them. As a result, who will want to teach in the lower income schools?

My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget checkups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I've got all my teeth, so when I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great. "It's quite simple," "They will
just count the number of cavities each patient has and average that to determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as Excellent, Good, Average, Below average, and Unsatisfactory. That way parents will know which are the best dentists. It will also encourage the less effective dentists to get better. "That's terrible," he said. "What?
That's not a good attitude," I said. "Don't you think we should try to improve children's dental health in this state?" "Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who is practicing good dentistry." "Don't you see that dentists don't all work with the
same clientele; so much depends on things we can't control. For example, I work in a rural area with a high percentage of patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper middle class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don't bring their children to see me until there is some kind of problem; I don't get to do much preventive work at all. also" he said, "many of the parents I serve let their kids eat way too much candy from an early age, unlike more educated parents who understand the relationship between sugar and decay. To top it all off," he added, "so many of my clients have well water which is untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much difference early use of fluoride can make?" "It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. "My best patients are as good as anyone's, my work is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is going to be higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am needed most." "Don't' get touchy," I said. "Touchy?" he said.
"Try furious. In a system like this, I will end up being rated average, below average, or
worse. My more educated patients who see these ratings may believe this so-called rating actually is a measure of my ability and proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me, and I'll be left with only the most needy patients. And my cavity average score will get even worse. On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and other excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?"
.

mytransams: I think with the NCLB Act the federal government can cut grants to schools that do not meet the criteria the states set for testing. That is a way that the federal governement is evaluating teachers but the end result of the program, IMHO, doesn't really help anyone. The idea behind the program may be sound but how it is being carried out could be changed a bit.

I know it would not be fesable to change everything at one time. But does not every teacher get a performance review from the adminastration? I also think you should be evalated by your peers. The students also should be able to grade their teachers and that feedback should be taken into consideration durning the reweiw. I know this is supposed to be about the new contract so this is how I would settle it. Teachers pay for your insurance premiums. JSD offer all the money plus back in a performance bonus. The better teachers could get a larger bonus and I feel that would be a small step in the right direction...Janesville Gazette run a poll and see if people agree that a teachers pay should some what be base on performance? I think a large number would side with me on this...Don't the JSD get grants based on how the students do on a test? feed back please? nina? jqpublic? Do I need to get you fired up again? Donovan

spunky: I just can't figure out that mentality,letter B in your statement. I would agree that health care costs are going up but there is a surplus in Janesville. You as a teacher and me as a taxpayer have already paid this. I think the bigger issue is that they are not being truthful with the spending. This fund keeps growing and they use the money to fund other things. It is really sad that this whole deal will result in the loss of great teacher now and in the future. I know most of you will set it aside when all is final and will continue to teach the best that you can. Keep fighting for what is right.

Sluggo: answer
A. To raise awareness of healthcare costs
B. What's good enough for you is good enough for me
C. Cuz everyone else is doing it
D. The district wants more money for the slush fund
E. All of the above
Notice none of these state numbers or a NEED for premiums, just a DESIRE by the board and Evert. Perhaps if the board ever gave us more than their desire, the JEA would listen.

ihavealife: I can't take back what I have said, if I did indeed say some of these things that you refuse to get directs quotes on. If I did say them then I will stick by them. I usually use the term ignorant when someone is really far off base with reality such is the case in these blogs. I would also say that you need to find a hobby! If all you have time to do is dredge up old blogs with things I have said you have a sad life. Stop with the truck building comments. I know that you are trying to slam me and spunky but what you are really doing is slamming the poor GM workers by saying that anyone can do it. Let's just agree that I will continue to call people ignorant if I see fit and you will yell at me for doing so. Neither one of us will change so let's just move on to the topic at hand. The teachers are not being offered a fair deal. That is my opinion and it is what it is. Please don't waste anyone else time yelling at me for picking on people. If you look around it happens quite a bit in these blogs and I'm not the only one. I will give credit to wiheat and caddyshack as they have been able to stay on topic with very well thought out discussions. Maybe we both could learn a bit from them.

What evidence is there to raise premiums and not just keep them the same?

Donovan,
Believe it or not I agree with alot of the things you said. Yes it would be great if teachers were paid on merit rather than years of experiance but the school district isn't going to do that. Why, I am not sure. I can think of one reason off the top of my head though, money. They can't budget correctly now with a solid pay scale how do you think they would manage on a system like that. That is most likely not the only reason obviously but one that requires some consideration. Lets say hypothetically that they did do this. How would you pay someone? Based on if every kid passed thier class? Or if your kid became a doctor? Than every teacher that had that student should get more money because every one of them impacted his learning in one way or another? You see the can of worms this is opening? Sounds good in theory but does it work? I would be interested to see some data on schools that do this. Anyways, that is not what this contract dispute is about.
As for your question on "Why the ____ not" teach in janesville. You said the students are great. I agree for the most part. A kid is a kid. Kids are great everywhere. As for the community being great. It may be in your view but read the blogs on this site and see how much they support education. Better yet see how involved they are in education. This school district has been overtaxing this community for years and saving the money for God only knows what and yet when there is a school board meeting 5-10 people from the public show up to see what they are spending or not spending your hard earned money on. You have lived in Janesville your whole life. Other communities have higher regard for their childs education and the way the schools operate. Go ahead and tell me to leave. Is that when you will be happy when everyone who doesn't bend over and take the crap the school district is doing leaves. That way you have no confrontation.
It just boggles my mind that an organization as big as the JSD can justify charging someone money for something with and excuse like "everyone else is doing it so should the teachers". These are the people that are guiding our teachers and your students. Every one tells their child not to do something just because everyone else is, which everyone would agree is correct. Then why can the JSD get away with telling teachers to pay more in insurance for the same reason?

I noticed not everyone apprecites a honest opinion because one of my post were removed from the other day.I have read evey post as they have came and started to replay a couple of time only to get half finished and then delete the hole thing. I have spent a lot of time in then janesville schools the last few years helping my nephew and I have even chaperoned on some of my step sons feild trips. "WHY TEACH IN JANESVILLE", why the hell not? reason one:we have some great kids here. reason two:This is a great commnity. I have lived here my hole life and have no plans on moving soon. I asked if a teacher is any better in his 30th year than his second and the answer I got back is I know I was better my second year then my first. I think a had a good point and no one would admit it. This is my next point. Teachers look around is there any of your coworkers that if replaced would benefit the students and give yourself a better place to work? I have read only 15% of people have collage degrees and I have a masters degree in education. Nobody have told me that they feel they deserve more money because in the course of the last contract the kids are doing better. Have tests scoures gone up greatly? Has the drop out rate gone down? This is to the JEA and the teachers. The students should be the barometer. Not just there is a surplus so why sould we pay premiums? But what if we pay you more then would you pay premiums? What kind of ass backwords agrument is that? Keep my money I have paid in. Its gone I don't want it back. Offer it in performance based insentives. As parents we should demand results...maybe I am on a island here but I don't care about anyones masters degree or years of experance..what I do care about is if my sons teacher has to passion and the temperment it takes to be a good teacher....like to here back not just have my post removed thanks Donovan.

ihavealife: My bad on the JSD/JEA thing. As far as ranting you are wrong! Your garbled text up above doesn't make a bit of sense. What are you doing with things that I have said in the past? If you want to rip on something that I have said then cut and paste the whole thing so I can at least defend what I said. As far as your friend being in the JDA, well that fits another of my points. They (and the board) for most purposes can't be trusted by the JEA. That message was very apparent in the school board meeting last week. Leave my wife out of this, as her views and my views are slightly different about some of the topics here. I am in no way speaking for her on this blog. You also need look back as I have never posted anything about the charter schools. I was waiting for the 4K program but my point was that it cost much more to roll out than the district had originally stated, there is a problem with that. As far as the name calling, again, find the quotes as I have never called anyone dumb on here. I have stated that people don't understand and that is something that is very apparent and really can't be argued with.
Don't talk about my rants as you seem to do that quite a bit yourself. I can read down over the last few days and see that you have quite a nack for bothering people. **************************************** Sorry to all that had to read the above, it was directed at ihavealife only!

Now back to the topic at hand. The board has not done their part in offering a fair contract to the JEA or by presenting all the correct facts to the public. It seems some of the facts are slowly leaking out but most people have not seen them. There are too many people on here bashing teachers without knowing the complete story. They don't want to get rich but they want to be treated with respect and earn a fair wage with proper benefits. The JEA has made concessions for the past 10 years to help the reserve fund grow and they aren't being given anything in return. The district just keeps taking from them without giving back. If the JDA, or a private company for that matter, constantly dumps on its employees they will not draw in the better talented workforce. They will be forced to choose what is left. That is reality everywhere. If Janesville is happy with 2nd best then, by all means, keep fighting the JEA. If you want your children to have the best opportunity to learn then give the JEA what they want. They aren't asking for the moon.

spunky wrote: "as Janesville's reputation declines, we will get the shallow end of the pool: the rookies, the leftovers, the ones who haven't been able to keep a job for more than the 2-3 year probationary period. There will be good teachers out of that pool, but less of them."

Teacher or not, truck builder or not, I applaud you for speaking your mind about this. And, it is true. Bill O'leary, a teacher in the SDJ for atleast 20 years, was quoted in the paper echoing similar sentiments last week.

Spunky's words could have been more eloquent, sure. But it is true. This contract and negative attention is eroding the chances of the SDJ in hiring WELL qualified applicants for any future vacant teaching positions. I'm pretty sure we all agree that just because you hold a degree in education does NOT make you a great teacher--or even a mediocore one at that. It costs an applicant upwards of $25 just to send a school district their application via WECAN. I wonder how many top notch teachers are hitting the submit button to send their applications/resumes to the SDJ inlight of thge current teachers not being appreciated or valued by their administrators AND working without a contract.

ihavealife: Spunky is just stating how things work in reality. You might try living there sometime! The problem Spunky was talking about exists in every workplace around the world. You have to be pretty naive to think otherwise. You may want to quit talking to your "so called friend" that works for the JEA. He/She must not be paying attention at all to what is going on in his/her union if she is telling you stories like this. Maybe he/she is one of those that Spunky is talking about???? All the teachers want is a fair contract and a board that treats them with respect. I guess all of that would entail a wage increase as well as insurance premiums remaining the same. It really isn't too much to ask considering the money is already there. We and the teachers have already put it there. Quit with the "if I can't have it then no one should" attitude. Again, that is not reality.

ihavealife,
I didn't mean you fell for it but the taxpayers in general. If they hadn't fell for it, they would be directing all of this anger at the JSD/School board and not the teachers.

ihavealife,
As far as I know the teachers aren't asking for the 7mil. They are asking to keep the same insurance they currently have. Which if you would look at the facts stated in previous blogs would not increase taxes or even tap into that 7 mil. The district has a surplus of funds almost every year from insurance. If anyone should be upset it should be the public. They should be upset with the district for overtaxing. Not overtaxing to pay for most importantly students, or teachers salaries or insurance. They are overtaxing to build up a 30 mil surplus. Everyone is making it out as if the teachers are asking for this money. They aren't. They are asking for the district to use the money that they budget every year on insurance and not raise our rates for no reason. And yes I said NO REASON. I cannot even believe that the JSD would give a reason to the paper that says teachers should pay because other janesville residents are. But I guess their strategy worked because by the looks of it you fell for it. You should be working with the teachers, even if you do think "they should pay more in insurance because you do", but more importantly because they are stealing your money. They are taxing you and I and not using the money. Don't you see something wrong with that. The teachers do. What the JSD is doing with their insurance is the same thing they are doing with your taxes, pocketing it.

Give the teachers their $800K, out of the $30 million surplus, give me a break, it is pennies. I am sure the school board has that money slated for items that are not covered in the referendums for the remodeling of the high schools. Isn't that what happened for Marshall's swimming pool? If they are self-funded insurance and they pay co-pays and deductibles, they are covering a portion of their health care costs just like the rest of us.

In my years of attending school for education I have had teachers that would be under-payed at $200K per year and have had teachers that needed to be removed asap to stop the damage.
So how does the school pay according to value without overpaying those that don't deserve it?

I am curious as to how this works...
We need to pay teacher (pay and benefits) better because they deserve it as they are forming our children for the future and after all don't we want the best for our children???
Then I read that we need to pay teachers more because Janesville will end up with bad teachers if we don't.
Just how are we to decide which teachers deserve the higher pay and which don't???

"as Janesville's reputation declines, we will get the shallow end of the pool: the rookies, the leftovers, the ones who haven't been able to keep a job for more than the 2-3 year probationary period. There will be good teachers out of that pool, but less of them." At no point do I make reference to my current coworkers and I did mention that there will still be good ones. It only makes sense that if Janesville is not one of the better places to teach, the experienced, proven teachers may be more likely to look elsewhere. P.S. I regret lowering myself to name calling. I just need to leave the "it's the system that's at fault" blogs alone because nobody will convince me that you are not accountable for your own actions. Sorry for lowering myself and for taking the focus off the topic.

Who started the ball rolling on minimum wage? unions
Who started the ball rolling on 40 hour work week? unions
Who started the ball rolling on safe working conditions? unions
Who started the ball rolling on minimum ages for workers? unions
Who should start the ball rolling on healthcare issues? Guess who
So go ahead - lie down and take it. Leave all the work to the unions, and when they begin to succeed don't thank them for your privileges.

ihavealife,
This is absolutely not true. All they want is a fair settlement. They, the teachers, first of all do not want to pay premiums because of the large fund balance. They are not asking for that kind of money back. Why pay premiums when they pay deductables, co-pays etc... when the surplus is that big.

2MUCH - Who says we want teachers to work for free. Not me. Janesville pays very high property taxes to pay teachers, city workers, etc. Nobody wants a teacher to work for free. But the fact is everyone's insurance rates are increasing everywhere. Not just for teachers. I have a great job, very good pay and still pay my insurance premium (which by the way just went up again for the 5th year in a row), but I can't negotiate that - it is what it is. Teachers work hard and deserve good pay but until the medical system in our country is fixed everyone is going to keep getting sucker-punched with insurance rates. If the district has saved $7 million dollars why are so many programs being cut -- ah...wait except for the 4yr old Kindergarten. I agree some of that should go back to the teachers in pay increases, but the cut programs need funding too. Its a no win situation that the district has put itself into.

justsome1here: Fine. You win again. Please allow me to restate: As an example of what is going on AT SCHOOLS, your tax dollars are helping to supply free or reduced-price lunches to 45% of Janesville millionaires' kids. That better? Now, go find something else to complain about. You usually do.

rockcofarmer: I've seen teachers called overpaid babysitters on these blogs before. That is how daycares work, if you all you ignorant people out there want to call them babysitters then pay them like one. If you read some of the blogs on here you'll see that they aren't screaming to get rich. All they want is a "fair" contract which is something that won't have if the JDA wins. The problem is that there are enough people out there that have no idea of what their job entails and they are the ones speaking the loudest against them. It is very unfortunate that people have this sort of view about the people who keep this world going.

Who is going to control the teacher paid insurance premium cost? The percent that is charged to them for health insurance. How much can it change by, we all feel the pain of high cost insurance but the premium you are putting into to print seems awfully high?

Mere 16 - I did answer the question. I was not "giggling". You take an anonymous pot shot at me and accuse me of being a "cop-out"?
Bill Sodemann

caddy - You started your sentence with "As an example of what is going on at home" which unless you live at these homes, you have no idea what is actually "going on" in them. You made an opinion (the view somebody takes about an issue, especially when it is based solely on personal judgment not based on facts). The fact that 45% of students are on free or reduced lunch only relates to what is "going on" at the school.

AREN'T YOU ALL SICK OF THOSE HIGH PAID TEACHERS??

Their hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work nine or ten months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do... baby-sit!

We can get that for less than minimum wage. That is right. I would give them $3.00 dollars an hour and only the hours they worked, not any of that silly planning time.

That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 AM to 4:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children.

Now, how many do they teach in a day... maybe 30? So that's 19.5 X 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

Let's see . . .. that's $585 x 180 = $105,300 per year.

(Hold on! My calculator must need new batteries!)

What about those special teachers and the ones with master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage just to be fair, round it off to $7.00 an hour. That would be $7 times 6-1/2 hours times 30 children times 180 days = $245,700.00 per year.

(Average teacher salary $50,000/180 days = $277per day/30 students = $9.23/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student.) Very inexpensive babysitter and they even educate your kids! Crazy!

And the B.O.E. doesn't want to negotiate. Sounds like we need a new B.O.E.

District wellness plan: 4:00 get blood pressure and cholesterol checked. 4:30 Find out you are extremely unhealthy. 5:00 Go out for fish fry wrapped in baccon and a night on the town. But congratulations: You've just qualified for a discount on healthcare because you participated in hoop number 127 of 400 hoops the district puts you through in the course of a year. Give me a break.

Sure good and bad apply for a job. The best of the interview pool get the job. The problem is that as Janesville's reputation declines, we will get the shallow end of the pool: the rookies, the leftovers, the ones who haven't been able to keep a job for more than the 2-3 year probationary period. There will be good teachers out of that pool, but less of them. Though after the probationary period, termination is difficult, a new teacher could be fired for looking at the principal cross-eyed, and the union could do little about it. The point is that if there are red flags during this time, the teacher is dismissed. From my observations, rookie teachers would often have to start at a smaller, rural, lower paying district. It was difficult to get some teaching positions in Janesville without a few years of experience and some letters of recommendation from some administrators. My guess is this will be changing. Again, what would your child's favorite program look like if a new teacher came in every two years? I know most teachers were better teachers in their second year compared to their first, myself included.

Just out of curiosity, when are the teachers supposed to find time to participate in a 'wellness program' when they spend most of the day at school. Are they supposed to abandon their families to participate?

food for thought,tell me if I am understanding this right. good teachers start at lower paying starter schools and then are moveing on to better paying schools, and these schools offer better eduction? and they retain better teachers because they pay more? If this is correct wouldn't poor teachers also apply for these jobs?If they have a good resume and interview well they could land the job over a teacher that can really teach. Once they land these jobs how do you get out the poor teachers to make room for the better teacher.Is haveing a high turn over that bad? Is haveing a teacher that has been teaching 7th grade math for 30 years better then a teacher that has only tought it for 2. Come on it's 7th grade. I just think no matter what the pay there will still be good and bad teachers they will just make more money. I don't know tell me I'm wrong I just think pay should be based on performance no matter what line of work...all for today Donovan

justsome1here: Where's the judgement here? I thought I presented a fact: At one school in JSD, 45% of students there are on free or reduced-price lunch. What exactly is your judgement on this?

To begin, I am a teacher in the Janesville School District. I have never posted before, but I do read the blogs so that I may keep abreast of the public's opinion on the issues -both positive and negative. (Let me also add that although I hold a Master's in Education, I do not feel as though I should be put upon a pedestal. I was raised by a father who was a factory worker; thus, I know how hard he worked to put food on our table!) So, let me first say I appreciate every worker who takes pride in his/her work.
However, I feel annoyed when I read some of these blogs because unfortunately, it seems as though these postings have become the venue for many who are discontented with their own salary and benefits. The sentiment that I am receiving is, "Why should these teachers get paid more and receive better benefits? I don't!" I understand your complaint, as many people are overworked and underpaid. However, this page has been set aside for the issue at hand, and the focus has been blurred at times because many citizens in this city feel they do not receive fair wages and benefits. I am hoping everyone can put this aside - or set up a blog custom designed for your own company. Unfortunately, emotions have become so high that venomous and fighting words are being used. What happened to attacking the issue, not the person?
Listen, I never took this job with an intention of becoming wealthy. I took this job because I wanted to help young people reach their potential - whatever that potential might be. I love teaching, and I am good at it. I have high standards for my kids, and this causes me to work a 60+ hour week (and I don't coach). I could easily work my contract, but my students would suffer academically. There are so many of us who put in long hours and we miss time with our own family (just like many other workers do). I don't expect much, but I would like to know that we are appreciated and respected. And yes, that does come down to money. We teachers are not asking for an exorbitant raise, but we would like to be able to pay our bills and have solid health benefits. What the board is proposing is not fair - not with the surplus it possesses. Years back, the district asked teachers to become self-insured in order to save the district money, and the teachers agreed to this. So, Mr. Sodemann, would you please answer why, when there is a surplus, is the district so bent on diminishing our benefits at a time of absolute surplus? We do not understand and can't comprehend why we are not getting what we perceive to be a direct and honest answer. I intend no disrespect, but I am asking for clarification.
I am asking the public to understand why we are unhappy, as we feel we are getting the short end of the stick with little or no real explanantion.

2much - As a taxpayer, it would be naive of me to want teachers to work for free and I am assuming that you would not expect anyone else to work for free either. I personally do not know anyone who considers teachers babysitters nor would they want them to raise their children. Please do not assume all "taxpayers" are alike when you pass judgement on people. caddyshack - unless you know for a fact what is actually "going on" in those homes, please also reserve judgement until you have all the facts.

Mrs. Rashkin, if you were employed by my employer, and saw the profits made by inflated self-insurance premiums, then you might just say ‘Ah, sorry, I haven’t had any claims; could you fork back some of that?’

2much: As an example of what is going on at home, I just read somewhere that 45% of the students at "one school" are on free or reduced-price lunch.

Bill Sodemann - what a cop out! Answer the question. Is it true that you and others were giggling at the board meeting the other night or not? If so, that is abhorrent behavior. I would think that this is akin to students in my classroom giggling at "stuff" when I am teaching. What a good example people like this set for our students. I, for one, am still waiting for your reply to this question!

One quote from someone who works for the district (Angel) appears to get it. You are right, teachers opted for less pay to keep their benefits, now where has that gotten them? This all boils down to the fact that the taxpayers want the teachers to work for free...what is next, you want your daycare workers to do the same? People pretty much send their children off to school with no help from home whatsoever...in fact, some homes are so broken that the only place children receive anything significant of a balanced life is school, so we pay people of high eductation a lot of money to babysit these people's children. Furthermore, as I have stated in past comments, what about the administration people?? They are paid from tax dollars too...they make a heck of a lot more than the teachers do...I know, I know, Tom E. does so much for us...I am just glad that he should be 1 foot out the door by the time my child reaches school age. And, teaching and GM workers are 2 different professions. If you are going to compare, you should compare similar jobs that require the same amount of education or same amount of trade skill.

Here's a thought: Many of us have Student Teachers and Field Study Students in our classrooms from surrounding universities who are inches away from entering the teaching profession. How would you folks want us to advertise Janesville as a wonderful place to be a teacher? We do not need to say much. I think one wonderful advertising agent would be to require them to read the attitudes posted on these blogs. I understand that these blogs represent a minority of Janesville, but the school board seems to want the JEA to pay insurance premiums based on Sound Off comments. Granted, there will always be rookie teachers who are just happy to get that first job. However, any wonder why almost 50% of beginning teachers quit the profession within 5 years? Why would a beginning teacher quit this easy, part-time, over-paid, Summers-off job?

Real quick - I realized I didn't answer your question: Do I think Janesville schools would be better if the teachers were on a different pay scale?
It's not a simple answer for me...I think it could be a PIECE of the puzzle in terms of imprvoving the district. I know that in terms of current teacher morale, it would go a long way. My morale has never, ever been this low. I have never been to the point where I am now that I have to force myself to stay beyond the end of the day; I have never been sickened by "meetings" and going the extra mile for my profession the way I am now. It has been at times a true crisis of conscience for me to feel like I put everything, everything I have into my students, my classroom preparation, volunteering to chaperone and run unpaid extra-curricular and co-curricular clubs AND to NOT be shown value via fair compensation packages. And to have an entire community, or so it feels, telling me I am greedy and self-centered. No, I didn't go into this to be rich, nor did I go into it to be poor. I know a better compensation package would go a long ways in boosting my morale and revitalizing me. I don't believe I have compromised any student's education or opportunities as a result of this, but I freely admit that I have, for the first time ever, been perusing openings in other districts and seriously considering applying. Furthermore, I personally know several young teachers, who have fantastic, promising futures who have already indicated a preference for leaving. Ultimately, I think we need to get a competitive package for Janesville teachers - not among the bottom of the Big Eight conference and the other comparable sized districts in the state - or yes, we will see even more problems in our schools in the future - similar to what was just posted by someone who saw a district with a high turnover rate. The thing I want to end on, however, is to reiterate that while I might leave the district, I wouldn't leave the profession because I do love it, and I do think it is that important, and I think I do work exceedingly hard and long, and I know somewhere there will always be students grateful for it, and it is quite possible I can find a community and district who will value it as well - and will partly show it in terms of support and compensation.

Yes, mytransam, I absolutely love my job and I have wonderful students that tell me they can tell that I love my content area and being with teenagers. While I can not predict what I would or would not respond to on any given blog, if you track my comments, yes, I tend to be involved in all of these education discussions. I am generally not a believer in throwing negative, attacking comments out in order to gain a response, and unfortunately for me, I am embarrassed that I was initially pulled in by that tactic - though I am glad we are attempting to have a civilized discussion at this point. Please, in the future, I just ask that if you want a response, put your thoughts out there without having to unfairly criticize people you don't know. By the way, I do know Mr. Tanko, though I am not in touch with him. What a nice compliment to him.
PS - If it's "taxpayers money - give it back" - well, yeah, I am a taxpayer too and am asking for it back! :) Sincerely, when a district offers a contract with a certain percentage overall, then they don't have to actually give that amount out to teachers because of their consistent "overestimating" of healthcare costs, I do think they need to reconfigure those amounts! I also believe that if there is a surplus from taxpayers - myself as a teacher and as a taxpayer - I certainly had better not see cuts in programs, staffing, materials, etc. due to a "shortfall" of money when that fund continues to grow.
It's been good chatting - I'm off...

mytransams: Here we go again, Yes I would have done things differently. The main reason I would choose a different profession is because of the lack of respect for educators. The other is the cost to receive a bachelor's degree. I did not say I do not like teaching, and for you to insinuate this as fact is far from the truth. As for the educator that made a difference in your life, he and I are in the same field of education!

Training acadamy is the best way I've heard it put. There are many teachers who cannot leave because other districts may not acknowledge experience. There are others who do not want to start from scratch all over again. That being said, there are two groups of teachers you need to be aware of in Janesville: those young teachers and those approaching retirement. Young teachers may not have much to lose and are just taking a SDJ job as a stepping stone to a job (teaching or other) that pays better. Others will be looking for a job closer to home. In previous cases, these teachers may settle down and start a family in Janesville, but with the climate of Janesville, should they? About retiring teachers, as more and more retire, you get more young teachers (see above comments). Do you want the best or do you want the leftovers? Leftovers may be willing to work for less, but they are leftovers for a reason. Also, when they move on to another job in 2 years... you see how this cycle can start as mentioned by sportthewar. Keep this in mind: look at some programs in the schools. Many teachers run programs, not just teach class. How would your school's band, theatre, sports, etc. look if the revolving door of new teachers every two years hit it. It has in some programs already.

Alright already! A school board member finally sticks his neck out and tries to defend JSD's position. The tide of public sentiment must be finally turning against you because those of us who have been reading and posting on this issue since articles have been published have wanted questions answered. First, let me preface the rest of this post by saying I am not a teacher.
First, I want to know why the JSD is demanding that the teachers pay a monthly health care premium. This is not the norm in most districts. Put on top of that, only 80% of everything is paid, and isn't there a co-pay as well? It seems like a terrible offer all the way around. Especially with a budget surplus.
Second, teachers are required to pay for classes to maintain their license, correct? Is the district reimbursing them? No, they are not. I work a glorified factory job(NOT GM), and I get tuition reimbursement. What do these classes cost? About $1,000 or there abouts? Isn't it S.O.P. to cover these costs in many districts?
It is my opinion and the opinion of many taxpayers/parents who I discuss this issue with that allowing any government entity to operate with a large surplus is inherently a bad idea. Surpluses never last long without someone figuring out a way to spend it. So my question to you, Mr. Sodemann, is this: How do you(and I mean YOU collectively)plan on spending this surplus?
Finally, a word of caution: I lived in a district that wouldn't pay teachers. What it became was a training academy for new teachers who would stay a year or two then move on to higher paying districts or quit altogether. The drop-out rate was awful, and in turn property crime shot up. I fear if you continue with your poor decision making, you will likely be re-elected for being "fiscally responsible", but at what cost?
So, Mr. Sodemann, defend your position. And not with numbers that can't be verified by an independent source. There's a bunch of us taxpayers/parents who need convincing that losing teachers is "fiscally responsible".

It's the taxpayer's ,money. If there is a surplus, give it back.

mytransams: This is the honesty I can appreciate! You do not agree that teachers are being underpaid or mistreated! I respect your opinion! You should have commented this way in the first place. As far as my low blow comment to you, I apologize it was uncalled for! Good luck to you in what ever you do!

jq public I knew you would look me up on c-cap. Just by reading your post I can tell that you are the kind of person the puts yourself up on a pedistle. I am very proud of the person I am and not ashamed of the road I traveled to get there. This is the first time I have ever responded to any article. I just feel strongly that teachers are not underpaid or mistreated. Every person is like there own company and makes what they are worth. When I was in school I got treated totally differt then when I took futher edection classes later in life. Donovan

I have lived in Janesville my whole life and both of my parents are teachers. It is sad to see others living in this town being so quick to comment negatively towards those that are teaching their children. All my life I have heard comments about teachers have it so easy since they have the summers off. But most of them don't, many teachers have summer jobs. Also most teachers don't work an 8 hour day. The go in early to work and stay late. Their work comes home with them at night and on the weekends. So please don't be so quick to judge and make statements like "those who can't do, teach". Where would you be today if you did not have a teacher helping you learn and get through school. Everyone probably had some teacher in their life that made a difference to them and made an impact on their life.

Sluggo - I only covered the most recent offer that has been made public and has been in the Gazette. As I have other things to catch up on today, I am signing off.
Bill Sodemann

Bill - if these negotiations are closed sessions, is it a good idea to present one of the boards offers? *(and only one) What about what you said no to? Are you considering PI34 at all? It is going to go away if the board ignores it? Is it true you and another member were passing notes and giggling durning the citizen comments? I watched the lady next to the president rolling her eyes continuously durning the comments - is the meeting going to be on local channels?

jq - Wow, all I can say is I hope you are proud of yourself for that last sentence you posted to mytransams!

mytransams: The reason I would like to know of education level is not because I feel I am better than anyone else. It is because I would like to know what knowledge they are bringing to the table with their comments? Many people post on every single issue on this website. Their education and profession will give me an idea if they have a legitmate arguement or if they are just bitter that they do not have similar benefits. Also regarding the plumber comment, If I had to do it all over again I would have been a plumber or an electrician. These are skilled jobs that will always be needed. I respect all professions. However it is difficult to understand where someone's negativity comes from if they do not completly understand a topic. As for you being a fine citizen, your rap sheet on the Wisconsin Circuit Court system is ridiculous.

jq - What my education is or where I obtained it is not relevant. Neither is what I do for a career. Nina - to take great liberties with a statement that has been posted often about health care premiums "just because somebody else regards teachers with disdain, does that mean you also have to regard people with that same amount of disdain?" Once again, just because I have an opinion that might be opposite of your own does not make me less educated.

Donovan, Thank you for your honest response. But please remember, no one here ever said that factory work or plumbing aren't necessary and difficult jobs, but you imply that teaching is easier. I guarantee you it is not - it is a different kind of hard work than physical labor. My dad and mom worked over 40 years in factory jobs, hated them, and encouraged me to find something that would be more satisfying - not less difficult. I respect every worker who is dedicated and doing his/her best to make ends meet or more, but you put a lot of unnecessary antagonism out there with your first comment, and ended your last comment with the same condescending tone, and hence, don't be surprised to get back exactly what you put out...attacks and negativity. So, let me be the first to put out an act of truce, and let's see what comes back...We are to be discussing the discrepancy between the school board and the teachers stance on specific points of contract negotiations.

Nina - Great explanation! If you are not already a teacher, perhaps you should be!

Huntfish - I am not aware of any records that are not available and open to the public whether the QEO is involved or not. If you can document one lie that you say I have told, I will resign from the board. Thank you for your courteous, professional and of course, anonymous comments.

Bill Sodemann

jqpublic: to answer your question I am a fine citizen.I have held the same job scene I graduated from craig high school in 1990 and as far as being trailer park. I bought my first house when I was 20 now I own 4. I have worked for every thing I own and never needed a union to help me keep my job. One of my teachers from craig had to resign shortly after I finished school for having sex with one of his students.So keep on ripping on the G.M. worker that drinks on his lunch. Does that really bother you? JQpublic you want to know what people do for a living? Why I ask? If I was a plumber would that make you better than me? GET OFF YOUR HIGH HOURSE AND LOOK IN THE MIRROR. My name is Donovan Fischer and I am a supervisor at a local company for the past 15 years. Nina there is more that goes into a job than getting a collage degee in gernal edaction and becomeing a teacher. How many workers died at this janesville G.M. plant? At my job I have seen 2 people loose there hands in machines. Nina do you ever break a sweat at work? oweah I forgot you are better then me. You must be one of janesvilles great minds.
yours truly,Donovan

Bill Sodeman,
First of all the board is scared to go to QEO because then the books will be opened and the real truth will come out about how much money the board has made off the teachers. When teachers ask to see the open records, they get the run around. Why are you telling the public one thing and then the opposite to the teachers? The teachers have no respect for you due to the comments you have made about how they are living in a fantasy world or dream world. Go answer the phones at Phones Plus and complain about how bad you have it to your customers. Tell more lies to the public to get their support and make it look like the board cares about teachers. The teachers know the truth.

luvujvl: This is a classic example of number manipulation. Let us confuse the public so they are on the school boards side. Janesville it basically comes down to this. If your employer year after year had a surplus regarding health insurance. Would you be willing to help them increase this surplus by paying premiums and on top of all this take a pay cut?

He is referring to the chart used to show salaries for the teachers. A cell represents a box on a grid that contains a salary figure. Picture a grid: down the left side place the numbers 1-20 for years of experience (1 at the top, 20 at the bottom). Every year a teacher teaches, he/she gains a year of experience and a new salary, thus moving "down" a cell. To move "over", picture across the top of the grid "educational attainment" in the form of a bachelor's +6 credits, up to a master's, up to master's + 6, 12, 15, 18 credits and so on...Every time a teacher pays for and earns a specified number of credits beyond either a bachelor's or master's degree, he/she can move over a cell. The year that you gain experience AND earn a certain number of credits, you thus move "down" for experience, and "over" for education. Some of the issues with contract talks is that once you have a certain number of years in and have reached a master's degree plus 30 additional graduate credits, there is no room to move down or over for additional salary. Hopefully, my explanation has helped at least a little!

justsome1here: The truth is that in the USA, only about 15% of people over the age of 25 have a college education/degree. So, overall, the general public is less educated than the teachers, of whom 100% have a bachelor's not to mention the high percentage of us who have master's degrees. That's just a fact.

What is a "cell"? I don't get the up, down, over ....

mytransams's post makes me wonder where did he get his education?

Greetings on a day designed to stay inside. For those of you who wish to know what the offer to the JEA has been (for over a month now), I will summarize. (Note: All of this information was publicized in the Gazette, so I am not disclosing any confidential information.)

The offer was a 3.31% increase in each cell for the 1st year with no insurance changes (because we are already 2/3rds into the budget year). Most teachers (those who have taught for less than 17 years) move down a cell, which means that their total increase will range from about 5.5% to 6.5%. Those who do not change cells would get the 3.31%. Those who move over a cell (usually by obtaining 6 more credits of education) would get an additional increase in pay.

The second year offer also was for a 3.31% increase per cell. In the second year however, there would be premium sharing that would cost a teacher $75.00 per month for a family plan (as long as they participate in the "wellness plan" - double if they do not).

This means that a teacher earning $40,000.00 per year would see an increase of $1200.00 to $2400.00 each year (depending upon their cell movement - not counting additional credits) but also be required to pay $900.00 towards their health insurance starting in the second year (July of 2008).

Each reader can determine what is "fair", but I think that there are many people, including teachers, who do not know what the offer is.

If the board was to enact a QEO using the numbers that are most favorable to the JEA, the total cost would be more than $600,000.00 LESS (over the 2 year period) than the offer that I summarized above.

As most of you know, I do not like anonymous comments, so I always sign mine.

Sincerely,
Bill Sodemann

P.S. I will post this on the other related blogs as well.

I too am a taxpayer, and I will respect the other taxpayers who speak in such a way as to deserve it. Mytransam's (aka taxpayer's) comments were ridiculous and trite. Some taxpayers make more valid points than others. Some taxpayers have better critical thinking and analytical skills than others. Some taxpayers have more education than others. Some taxpayers have more common sense than others. There is nothing personal about that; it's the way the world simply is. I didn't see the hallmarks of good thinking or relevance in mytransam's statement and clearly neither did a lot of other people/taxpayers.

justsome1here: What is your education level? I know it does not matter! I am just curious, what you do for a living? Be honest!

Once again, teachers are not the only individuals in the city of Janesville that are "highly educated". It would really be a welcome change of pace if teachers would stop referring to taxpayers as "less-than-educated people".

It's "their" asses, not "there". Maybe some narrow-minded, bitter, and less-than-educated people need to go right back into the classroom themselves. By the way, you clearly haven't kept up with the posts or doing your research, yet again showing how misinformed people are before they "speak" or write because you would know that many, many, many teachers do work in the summers - everything from bartending and waitressing to house painting and real estate not to mention taking graduate courses on top of that. Those who can do have 2nd and 3rd jobs as well as have master's degrees and are TEACHERS; those who can't spout off on blogs about things they don't really know about.

It is the taxpayers' money.

mytransams,
You must have spent a little too much time under the hood of your trans ams. Maybe the next time you are getting out from there you will hit your head on the hood and knock some sense into your self. Thanks for making me laugh today.

my trans ams, what tailer aprk are you living in. lets not act like gm workers are breaking their butts at work. if you go to any local establishment(tavern) in the immediate viciniy of the plant you can find hundreds of workers gettin bent on their lunch break. why does my gm vehicle keep breaking down? geez i wonder.
so lets not go after the teachers ok? if anyone is overpaid and under worked in this town its not the teachers, belee dat. 4 day work weeks and 28$ an hour is something any of us working stiffs would be ecstatic to have, so stop getting drunk at lunch , and stop ripping the SOBER teachers.

mytransams: You must be on of Janesville's finest citizens?

Teachers always use the same arguement."without top pay we can not attract the best and brightest young teachers." it is the same thing every contract. If a G.M. worker wants more money he is greedy.If a teacher whines about his pay,its poor teachers. They already get paid well to sit on there asses. So why don't they just be happy with not working all summer and spend that time to find a real job. "those who can do...those who can't teach" Donovan.

Dr. Evert says he is willing to answer questions teachers have. Then why is it that everytime he is asked a question it takes two weeks for him to decide how to answer that question. "“The board believes some of the statements presented at the podium by teachers … really require answers and clarificaton,” Evert said.Evert hopes to have his written statement ready sometime this week."

I understand, “It’s sound business management is what it is,” Rashkin said. Sound business management is making as much money as possible. And that is exactly what they are trying to do at the teachers expense. Look at the numbers. Teachers have no need to pay more due to a surplus. Remember this is a non-for profit organization not a profit making company. This is rediculous and the JEA needs to make an example that the JSD is not going to continue walking all over them like they do the taxpayer.
Board members I understand some of you are business owners but you must remember this is not a for profit company.