LOL @ mrbread. Nice comeback to a very, well let's just say, dumb statement. benthinkin and wiheat are correct, put the numbers on the table and then we can have a discussion. Caddyshack has done a very nice job using numbers to back up his/her argument.

low pay gaurantees teachers teach because they want to! Wow, I can't even believe that was said! Maybe we should take that philosophy everywhere. Low pay ensures lawyers like law. Low pay ensures movie stars love to act. That is ridiculous. woody, do you love your job? If so, then let's reduce your salary. I guess if you hate your job, then you should get paid more?

hey teachers, I have an idea for you. If you love to teach, do it unconditionally. If you do not like to teach, go into the business world.

It is hard for me to call what the school board is doing as being bargaining. Refusal to Mediate should read School Board Decries REAL Bargaining 4 Posturing

Remember, high pay does NOT make a teacher better, but, low pay guarantees that the teacher teaches because they WANT to.

Here's a better headline. Teachers Refuse To Work Together And Solve Their Problems In A Non-Confrontational Way, And Thereby Set A Great Example For Their Students!

I'm not a tax expert by any means, but if I am not mistaken the tax dollars for BTC come from Rock County, but the schools tax comes from the City of Janesville. I'm guessing some other towns in the county would be kind of mad, unless you spread it out to all 8 or 9 school districts in Rock County, but after you do that there probably won't be very much money to use for anybody.

as said earlier about tax money being redistributed i meant that some of the money from btc and giving to public schools and have the students make up the difference. collage is a higher education where public school is not it is required to attend some kind of school be it public or private. I guess that is what i was trying to say. this would end some or most of the issuse at hand with the teachers.

I know I can not speak for all, but I do not believe the students are affected in the "day to day" school operations. Every once in a while a question may come up about what is going on and yes I know some clubs and other activities are affected, but I do not believe that this issue has drawn the students into it. Again I only speak of my observations, not of all involved.

vetman - I think you are misguided in your figures about BTC instructor salaries. It is true that there was an article published last year about salaries in the state for tech college instructors, however, most of the data was skewed by those instructors in the Milwaukee area who choose to teach much overtime and accordingly make much more than the average instructor at BTC. (Also in most other areas of the state, the normal teaching load is 10-20% less than the load at BTC, which further inflates the salaries of non-BTC tech college instructors. Other tech colleges are paying instructors overtime for hours BTC instructors teach as part of their normal loads.) According to the 2006-2007 pay scale, a first year instructor with only a bachelor's degree and work experience would make 39K while a 15 year BTC teacher with a masters and 24additional credits would make 73K. I doubt there are more than one or two instructors at BTC who make $100K or more. Also, I don't really think comparing K-12 with college instructors is an equal comparison. In the tech college area, you are asking professionals in various areas to take a pay cut to teach hands on skills. Nurses, welders, and CPAs for example could be making considerably more in their respective career fields then they are teaching. If salaries aren't at least minimally attractive, the pool of qualified, quality instructors is severely restricted.

Harvey Dunlap was one of the greatest teachers I ever had-at any level.

I hope the teachers' new health insurance package includes the surgery necessary to remove the rings from their noses that WEAC is pulling them by.

Caddyshack - I am not "complaining" about the JEA trying to settle the contract dispute. I am "complaining" about the tactics being used. As far as I am concerned, the JEA and the JSD can hurl accusations at each other til doomsday as long as the students are not drawn into the mix. Also, please do not assume to know what I would or would not be happy with for benefits, simply because you do not know what mine are. You make an assumption that because I offer an opinion that mine are worse than yours. From what I have gathered (premiums or no premiums) that would be an incorrect assumption.

vetman- In order to teach some courses at BTC, you need to have the degree for which you are teaching plus experience working in that field. For example, to be a nursing instructor your degree has to be in nursing (some perfer masters) plus additional education courses.

And everyone else should be also. Present the numbers and facts as they are, and win or lose on the merits of the case.

beenthinkin,
I'm with you on this one.

Wisconsinheat: Sometimes people get to caught up in emotional debate that the mere thought of logical, data collecting problem solving (example would be an actuary)is to much for them to handle.
I really think that putting it down to the numbers is the only way for a fair solution.

beenthinkin said: "On the surface it appeared that the teachers were having $15k per year taken out of their pay... and that is simply wrong. It is taken out of their total compensation package.".
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That is one of the points I tried to get across many, many, posts' ago.
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That in order for everyone to be on the same page, we must first be reading from the same book..
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That is where an actuary comes in to play. Everything can and should be costed out in dollars and cents so there is no dispute as to what the bottom dollar is.

I think someone should wake up. someone needs to revaluate where the property taxes are distrubited to. BTC gets $ from property taxes and they make $100k or more and the k-12 teachers are in the ballpark of $30k-$50k. maybe the should take money from btc and put more to k-12 grade schools. but dont raise property taxes to do so. it is a simple fix.

mrbread: I did not make a "comparison" nor what about me. What I was pointing out is that caddy was using a dollar amount without discussing the whole story. On the surface it appeared that the teachers were having $15k per year taken out of their pay... and that is simply wrong. It is taken out of their total compensation package. I used my case as an example to show that.

I for one support the JVL teachers and hope that they stand their ground.

It seems so simple I must be missing something. Negotiate one rate of increase-- salary & insurance together. Let the JEA say how much should be held back for health insurance.If the fund runs short it comes out of every teachers check-- if long there is refund. As far as the surplus goes that should be up to a court No one here has enough facts and/or knows the law well enough.

Our economy is a mess, and most everyone is taking cuts in some form or another. How do you think we can prevent a similar mess in the future? I will tell you, through EDUCATION. Our priorites should be top notch educations for our children so that they can learn history, and try not to repeat it! We must do what it takes to make teaching remain a desirable profession. The Janesville teachers are not asking for any more than the other comparable school district teachers are getting.
I would also like to point out how the school district adminstration still manages to get large raises. Raises that far exceed what the teachers are asking for. Why isn't anyone coming down on the adminstration?

Zoom- You indicated that teacher's salaries/benefits should NOT be affected when the economic climate is poor. Unfortunately, the taxpayers as a whole are experiencing such realities as layoffs, benefit decreases and little/no salary increases. Why should teachers be exempt from the economic realities of our community? Where do you think the money is coming from to pay for public salaries? Teachers are not a protected class. They should live by the same rules as the rest of us, which unfortunately right now stink due to a recession. I am not advocating bringing teachers 'down' to size- I am just advocating some common sense. Idealism is very expensive.

Some people around here scare me with their close minded, "what's good enough for me is good enough for you" attitudes. America shouldn't work that way people, and that's a good thing. Move to a socialist or communist country if you think everyone deserves the same thing.
Where I work, my premiums and copays increase yearly. My total compensation package also comes out to be double my hourly wage. I accept that without having the mentality that it should be like that for everyone. If you think teachers have it so good, what's stopping you from going to school and becoming one?

I don't understand how the JSD can justify increasing the insurance payments when there seems to be an excessive surplus. Shouldn't the decision be based on fiscal issues?

Let the teachers keep their benefits, and give them a reasonable wage increase. Just because other businesses are having a hard time doesn't mean the teachers benefits should suffer. Social Engineering should not be the JSD's goal.

ben.. why does this discussion always turn into a "what about me" episode. Aren't we discussing the teacher contract? To be fair, teachers have training and experience that is coveted throughout the private industry, and they could theoretically demand a much higher salary in the private sector. Instead of comparing all of our situation to teachers', think about why they want more. Last time I checked, stuff costs more this year than last! The price of things we all need to survive goes up! So to should all of our salaries/hourly wages. If your situation sucks, sorry, why do we have to make the teachers' situation suck also? They play a critical role in our society that is often times unheralded, look for research on communities that support teachers, you find lower instances of crime. You can ivest in our future one of two ways, by creating a strong educational system or a strong prison system.
What is even more absurd about this whole discussion is that it is playing out in the public forum. I don't know how Evert settled his contract or how his terms changed, why not? I don't know what the negotiations at any business look like. People may argue, as a taxpayer i have a right to know, I should have the same right to know why my can of soup cost more! If the price goes up by a nickel, then I want my say in the contract negotiations at woodman's. Full disclosure apparently isn't always a good thing. As citizens we should be more concerned about the devolution of civility between the two sides. What can be done to repair that relationship? Settle the contract equitably, in private.

caddy...here is my post."caddyshack243, Your figure of $15k for insurance is based on the insurance being part of your total compensation package.
All benefits for employees are part of the total compensation package, so it is not just teachers who are "paying" that much.
My employer's figures show that my "total compensation" is 2+ times what my actual hourly rate is on my check every week."
Those would just be facts, nothing more.
Feel free to read into it all you want though.

Posted by benthinking on March 5 at 6:34 p.m.:

"There is an old saying that fits perfect here...
There are two ways to make yourself look better,
one is to raise yourself up through hard work and effort.
The other is to knock those around you down."

Hey ben, these are your words. Now, how are you trying to make yourself look better?

Why teach in Janesville,

Hang in there, this too will end.
It's nice to know you still like your job.
I can't imagine thats easy right now with all the negativity going on. I hope the next meeting will get the Janesville teachers the contract they deserve.

mrbread,
That's an awesome idea but the district will never go for it because then they wouldn't be making all of this extra money from the insurance overbudgeting.
justsomeonehere, Never have I complained about my students, my salary, or my working conditions. Thanks for not actually understanding what you are talking about again. I have not complained about my employer either. I have been posting facts on this blog. I like my job, and yes that is what it is, a job. Excuse me for wanting to keep a benefit that the district has no justification for taking away. I understand that you don't have this benefit and it upsets you but there isn't much I can do about that. And as for the "dissenting tactics of the JEA", thanks for pointing out everything that they do that you don't like, yet never have you had a better solution to something they have done to offend you. Also, thanks for making me feel a little better about myself and my intelligence after reading your comments.

Why not just give teachers the option of shopping for their own insurance and reimbursing them for the cost ($17000). Let the free market drive down the cost of insurance for all.

"Vechinsky indicated he would not back down from the premium-paying idea, noting that it’s become the norm with other employers while teachers continue to resist."..Several post indicated that they don't think the teachers have the public support. I believe that may be true because too many people think like the above quote. It's important that they continue to protect the benefits that were fought hard and long for and at the same time improve their benefits if possible. If the labor market were to follow the lead from Mr.Vechinsky there would still be tractors being built at 1000 Industrial Dr. for 20cents an hour. Teachers do what is right by the JEA membership...And just as a disclaimer, I'm not a teacher or a GM worker.

caddyshack243, Your figure of $15k for insurance is based on the insurance being part of your total compensation package.
All benefits for employees are part of the total compensation package, so it is not just teachers who are "paying" that much.
My employer's figures show that my "total compensation" is 2+ times what my actual hourly rate is on my check every week.

Ouch!

I was just too darn busy right-clicking to concentrate on numbers.

Don't mean to pick nits but you know I like to keep things as accurate as possible.

Oops, thanks wiheat. Deductibles are $200 per family member, but a $600 family max. Hey, you just saved me 200 bucks! Thanks.

justsome1here: While you may not be here complaining about your situation, you certainly are here to take every opportunity to complain about the JEA's efforts to settle the contract dispute. As we have repeatedly stated, every teacher knew the salary potential when we took the job. However, we never really expected, despite our consistent pay raises, to continually fall behind the inflation rates, cost of living rates, have to fight for every nickle and dime, and now defend ourselves with this insurance issue. I look at potential teachers nowadays and wonder why the heck would anyone want to go into teaching anymore? Sure, it is definitely spiritually rewarding, but certainly not as financially rewarding as it used to be, and it certainly isn't worth it to have to continually take below-the-belt shots from every anonymous blogger in Janesville. Quit? Not a chance. I just retreat to the comfortable sanctity of my classroom where I can embrace my clientele. As long as the grown-ups leave me alone, I'm fine. You think you can do better? Come on in and sub. You got a degree? Sign up. Show us how it's done.

Sun Prairie's 4.4% and 4.5% seems to beat JSD's original offer of 5% and 1%, and the current JSD offer of 3.31% and 3.31% per year with a $1700 insurance premium equivalent. Sun Prairie's insurance premium was a token amount. Sorry folks, I will not vote in favor of a $2000 raise with $1700 of that going to the still-growing insurance fund. I'd even bet justsome1here wouldn't be happy if s/he were facing that. The JSD still has not proven a financial need to over-supplement the insurance fund.

Caddy: While you may sound like a broken record, I thank you for repeating the facts to those who either skipped them the first time, were never informed to begin with, or are just so caught up in the "Why should teachers get more than I have" argument (that has no merit in this discussion whatsoever). Clearly, it can't be redundant enough.

justsome1here stated that teachers "serve the public" meaning they "serve the students" as was put in parentheses. If teachers are just "servants" then why do they need a college degree? If they are just "servants" then why does the state require them to get addition college credits every 5 years? Seem a lot of work and expense for a "servant". Why does a "servant" need to be physically abused by an 8 year old before any administrator or school board member will take note of the abuse the teacher has taken all year from this child?

Why_Teach_in_Janesville - I am not the one on a public forum complaining about my employer, my benefits, my salary, my working conditions, the people I serve (the students) and the public in general. That would be you. I admit that I have voiced a dissenting opinion about the tactics of the JEA and will continue to do so.

Sun Prairie Teachers Strike Contract Deal With District
Board To Consider Proposed Agreement Next Month
http://www.channel3000.com/education/154...

Deductible:
$600 Family
$200 Single

JEA members pay 20% of doctor visits. Surgery is paid at 100%.

ilovehockey: This is overly redundant, but here we go again. My “free” insurance costs me $15,600 annually for a family insurance plan, and the JSD wants to increase that to $17,700 next year. If my insurance were truly “free”, then the $15,600 or $17,700 the JSD budgets for my insurance would become part of my salary and the JSD would foot the bill for my insurance premiums. I also pay $800 in deductibles and 20% of all other medical bills. That is not exactly “free” either. Also, my guaranteed raise next year may not cover the cost of the JSD’s proposed insurance premium plan. And also remember that the JSD made $1.7 Million from the JEA insurance fund last year and has already made another $.7 Million this year. The JSD wants the JEA to pay additional insurance premiums into the insurance fund that the JEA has overpaid by $2.4 Million since 2006 alone. Get informed. Read the other blogs on the insurance funds.

When he was born I was in high school, my sister was in high school and moved back in. afterwards when I moved out my sister and him moved in with me. Essentially the better part of his life I was around. Stand at attention is more in reguards to his attitude. meaning he doesn't acknowledge most people when they speak to him, in general I notice most kids do not. When I speak he stops goofing around playing around or ignoring the world and looks at me. Essentially he has refocused his attention. He does not do the same for his mother, dad, grand parents, they allow him free reign. That created a differnce in the way he acts.

He is a puke and a punk in reguards to the way he treats people. He has pushed his mother down yelled and screamed at her. Even as a child he acted differently around people that let him get away with murder when it came to talking back at them versus when he was dealing with someone who did not put up with it. When he was young a lot of people swore around him when he started swearing at a young age it was funny a lot of us laughed. as time progressed we stopped laughing and curbed that habit. He didn't get spanked for it.

Like I said I only ever spanked him twice, when he was 4 and when he was 6. Both were in reguards to him continuously failing to stop doing something he was told not to for months on end. Like opening the door everytime someone knocked he always thought it was his grandparents or a friend at the door since no one else had ever come by. Nothing like letting him play video games while you take a shower to come out and find cops in your living room. Thankfully it was the cops and not anyone else right?

So at what point do you draw a line? I would have been beaten the 1st time it occured. Its a matter of enforcing your words when its merited. Telling a child for 10 years they will get punished/spanked but never punishing/spanking them is not enforcing a value system.

He learned that there are repercussions at this point its a corner since spanking is never 100% reliable. Used as the harshest punishment they are happy they only stand in a corner for a bit and yet realize it could be worse. Spanking is good for young children as they get older timeouts work just as well. Its a matter of application, abusing a child gets you nowhere.

How this fits into the discussion here is that there is a failure to even raise a hand towards your child. They don't realize people will start a fight with them. They don't have a sense of respect for authority figures, being the teachers in school, cops in life. They have always reigned supreme in their own world.

This creates the problems teachers deal with everyday, they might even need a sociology degree soon to even teach. Maybe some self defense classes to boot. They are hired to teach not babysit but usually they do both.

Haeight,
I have so many issues with your last post.
1. If he lives with his grandparents, why do you as his uncle decide to spank him? Either you are too young to be in that role or too old to be living with your parents?
2. A punk and a puke? Disgusting
3. Stand at attention??
I hope I didn't encourage your post by what I posted. There is a line.

Enough already. Lock representatives from the two sides in a classroom and don't let them out until they come to an agreement. This has been dragging on for months and when it seems there might be headway, one of the sides begins acting childish again. What kind of an example does this set for kids who are told to find ways to solve problems and compromise for the greater good. And how much time is being taken away from kids in classrooms, or how much administrative time that should go to the kids greater good, is being burned up during school days? Stop it already.

I don't have children yet, I do have a nephew who is about 12 now. From the time he was born he lived under the same roof as me, be it my parents house or my house. In that time I spanked him twice after countless times of talking to him.

he is a punk and a puke, treats him mom like trash. Its not horrible but I know I would have been put in my place had it been me at that age.

The moral of the story is that he listens to me all the time he understands that when I raise my voice at him its for good reason. He does not give that same response to my sister or any of his grandparents, with the exception of my dad and his wife. Since they are old school and will resort to smacking you around. He stands at attention when they speak to him likewise for me.

He just understands there is a no nonsense attitude with us, and he knows he can push his boundaries with everyone else. since they have never put their foot down with him. Lack of respect carries over to persons of authority as life carries on.

aj,
How many of those kids were arrested for what they did?(The violent ones not the missing homework)
I know of a story, mind you I have heard this second, third or possibly forth hand, that has hit his teacher 3 times and hasn't been arrested and another kid that was ticketed for throwing his pencil on his desk.
Are their guidelines for police involvement?

You know, what you posted is sad. But, these things were happening in the 50's too.(So my mom tells me)

I actually laughed when I read Haeight's post. I have felt this way myself. I always wanted to do well as a kid and always wanted to be pleasing to my teachers so I was never a problem in school. I can tell you every decision I made as a kid was made with the knowledge if I messed up my mom would "beat the crap" out of me. I knew better and I feared her. Heck, I still do.
I know that we had to do something to let kids know parents(or anyone else) didn't have the right to abuse them but they should have been taught the difference between abuse and discipline. I jokingly told my child I was going to knock them out if they didn't stop what they were doing. You know what they said? Ya, and you'll go to jail cause parents aren't allowed to hit kids anymore. They were joking...but still.
I don't think parents should hit kids, honestly. I would rather just have them know, understand and follow the rules. But, to have the fear of it. Sure. My husband always says fear went a long way when he was a kid.

Ilovehockey
I really hope that your attitude is not the attitude of the general public in this town. I really don't think it is. I think many people on this blog may agree, but the majority of the public can't be that ignorant. The "If I don't have it then you shouldn't either" mentality is terrible. By the way our insurance isn't "free". I am not even going to waste my time to explain why it isn't to you. All you have to do is read the other posts.

The public with children in high school and even middle school were brought up in a society where punishment was delved out on a daily basis by their parents.

They are restricted by laws saying they can't hit their children more than x amount of times or leave a mark or any number of things. Or they simply choose to not punish their children since they felt it was so wrong they got beat as a child for misbehaving on a constant.

Todays society thinks they can discuss every little mistake with their children. A child has no fear of repercussions. How many times did you not do something as a child for fear of getting the life beat out of you by your parents? Kids today have no such fear.

you reap what you sow. you might want to get used to children being tossed out of the system for not complying with rules. if the teachers ever allowed to lay hands on your children again I am sure things could be expediated at an earlier age than dealing with near adults acting as delinquints.

jetski30 suggested that the public may not have a clear idea of what it’s like to teach here. Here you go. Many days are wonderful and rewarding and I have a lot of positive connections with students. Other days are downright hideous. Here are some excellent examples of what I’ve dealt with in the past two weeks and why many teachers may sound so frustrated:
- I had to send a student out of class 3rd hour because he refused to turn over his hat to me. I don’t really have a problem with students wearing hats but if it’s going to be a school rule, I do feel obligated to enforce it. I only wish that I didn’t have to have continuous confrontations with students about rules that they are well aware of on a daily basis.
- About 10 of the 45 students I have in one of my subjects did their homework today after I spent a great deal of time telling them where to find the answers.
- Many teachers attempted to break up a big fight and two of them were injured in the process. One was hit in the face and the other had her arm pulled. We were trained in non violent crisis intervention (so as not to harm the students as they are trying to take you or another student out) but I haven’t had to use my skills yet.
- One of my students attempted to knock another one my students out by swinging a billiard ball in a sock at her head.
- Two boys just flipped out swearing at me after I very calmly discussed with one of them that he couldn’t write obscenities on his PowerPoint title page.
- A colleague of mine tried to stop some students engaged in a public display of affection and was told “you’re just jealous – you’re too fat to have sex.”
And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Teachers all over the district have similar stories daily.

While I would love to support the teachers, because I believe the majority out there are good, I simply have a hard time trying to justify it, when most of us don't get a fraction of what they are being offered. Free health insurance! Wouldn't that be great! And a guaranteed raise every year, I certainly don't have that.

There is no way you are going to get the "common worker" to support you, when it is way more than what we get. Not everyone in this town works for GM, and by continuing to complain about "what you deserve" you just put the rest of off by coming across that you deserve more than we do. And alot of us have to deal with rude and undesirable behavior, it's just adults instead of kids. But, we still don't get free insurance for it.

jetski30, I think for me it is hard sometimes to separate the teachers from the JSD. I just lump them all in the same basket. If I don't like something in the school district, the teachers somehow became a part of that. Does that make sense? This issue has helped me to separate the teachers from the JSD and realize that the JSD are the teachers" "boss" and they are not responsible for what it does.
Also, my children have had to interact with some "bad" teachers through the 14 years I have been here. The screaming, swearing, coffee cup throwing, name calling and the "Dunlap Rap". All by teachers. I have also had some really good experiences with many teachers here too. Sometimes, I wish I could support just the positive ones but I realize I have to support them all or none. That is hard too. It's hard to trust a district, knowing that many parents have lodged complaints about a certain teacher, that do nothing about it and continue to allow them to be with our children. But, again, that is a JSD problem, not the teachers.

I don't understand why teachers are not supported in the community they work in? I am not a teacher but have you ever walked through a school while kids are in session and listen to the way they talk to teachers and disrespect them? It is horrifying, if I were to be a teacher, it would take me all of 2 seconds to toss a kid right out of school. If parents can't take responsibility to teach their children self respect, manners and morals, then they should shut up and support the teachers for taking such an interest in their child because they do not!

lol

Golf1, I am sorry you are feeling so frustrated. I would like to thank you for showing me that you are a teacher that still has passion and love for what you do. I can only imagine how disheartening all this is for teachers that truly do care about their students. I do want to support the teachers who are being positive role models for our children. I think it's about time that the JSD does the same.

It's late. Try LEFT click.

melstew47 - "im tired of hearing about it and reading about it."
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If that's the case then right click on that X in the top right hand corner of your browser.

for crying out loud quit wasting everyones time and effort give these teachers what they want and shut up about it. you know you are going to give in to them anyway. teachers pick up your bags lock your class rooms and leave! they will come to their senses an negotiate with a good offer, i dont even have kids in school anymore. thank goodness and im tired of hearing about it and reading about it.

And...I am not sure why I continue to read this "junk". It just gets me fired up. I know the facts. I understand the issues. No matter what happens, it won't change what I do for my 100+ kids each and every day. Sadly for them (because I love my job no matter what I get paid or how much I have to give up with regard to my insurance) it may affect whether or not I stay in Janesville.

Wiheat - I do understand that. And, I thank you for your support. You are very level-headed and fair about this whole mess. I like to read your perspective. While I stand by my union, I agree, cancelling the meeting doesn't make us look good, but maybe it was a good decision based on past results? Again, too bad Joe Public judges us on some things and not all. This whole thing is very sad.

golf1,..I hear what you're saying. I do appreciate the dedication and hard work of teachers.
Just offering a different perspective on things.
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gmproud in the post before you has a point.

What is frustrating here is that no matter what the teachers do, they will be wrong, slackers, lazy, etc. And the Gazette will continue to slant us as such. Again, come into our rooms and see what we are doing so "you" understand that our years of previous schooling and continued schooling are actually making a difference. Remember, we are working with a generation of kids who feel the world owes them - and we choose to continue trying to make a difference.

Teachers will never win a PR battle if they continue to try and fight it through the Gazette or this forum.

I have to agree with jqpublic on the matter of public support for teachers. Teachers have a rep of living life on easy street and unless they have less than the average citizen the general public will never be satisfied. I suppose this an excellent reason to have a union to stand up for the teachers since the public won't. The facts have been stated on the surplus and the public seems to be turning a blind eye to it.

Dear Gazette, Stop brain washing people under the guise of "reporting." This article could also be titled, "Teachers retreat from unproductive mediation" or "Teachers express discouragement with mediation" or how about "JEA says talk to the hand" instead of using the word "refuse" to make teachers seem defiant. Plus, why is the Gazette making me feel sorry for Tom Evert? This isn't personal...so please keep it professional and stop the slanted reporting. Gracias!

jq, sounds like you've basically resigned yourself to that. If so, get used to QEO for years to come.

I don't really know the answer to that specific question. There are / were a lot of variables and perceived missteps along the way.
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That's why my comment about hiring a PR person was only partially tongue in cheek.

Yes, times are a-changing. Sun Prairie settled for over 4% per year salary increase for each of the 2 years with a minimal insurance premium. JSD is still offering 3.3% per each year, and offering to have the JEA pay an additional $2000 in insurance premiums next year for Family Plan coverage. Our “free” insurance costs each Family Plan JEA member $15,600 annually, and the JSD expects to increase that to $17,700 next year. The JSD has yet to prove the financial evidence that the JEA is over spending the insurance as is. It was stated in the Gazette recently that the insurance reserve fund last year made $1.7 Million, and this year the insurance reserve fund is currently an additional $2.4 Million.

wisconsinheat: I agree public support would be nice. However in this community teachers could work for free and the public would still complain. If you have not already figured this out! It does not matter what the teachers do, positive or negative they will always ridicule teachers!

wisconsinheat
you may be right that this is not good in the eyes of the public but you still never answered my question. How should have the JEA gained public support in this contract dispute?

Wiheat: Thank you for your knowledge, experience, and support.

I have been to many seminars and workshops presented by a gentleman named Robert West.
Does that name sound familiar?
He used to be on the WEAC payroll as a lobbyist / public relations consultant (not sure of his exact title, it been a few years.)
His main theme was / is winning negotiations through public relations, and apparently he was quite successful at it.
Obviously there is no magic wand to wave for all negotiations, they're all different.
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Point is, the merits have been hashed and re-hashed, but by refusing to even meet with the mediator at this stage appears to be a PR blunder.
Remember, once this contract is settled there's more to come, and obviously the more public support the better. And this isn't the way to get it. Just the opposite.

wisconsinheat,
As I stated in a previous entry, it doesn't really matter what the teachers do to try to get thier point across on these issues, either way they are "whinners". You seem to have a lot of knowledge on negotiations, how do you think the JEA should have went about this dispute?

After a few years of teaching, the "new" teachers sense of "Wow, I have a career and make more than my minimum wage at the college dorm cafeteria" wears off, they will begin to fight the same fight on salary and insurance as they try to become homeowners, support families, save for retirement, and the like. Many other threads on this topic have discussed the pitfalls of having ONLY new teachers with few veterans to serve as their state-required mentors! Very short-sighted and not realistic to suggest the majority of the district's teachers quit.

hpytchr,
Are you a teacher in Janesville?

"The JEA statement said members met with their attorney before deciding to forego the mediation session."
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Maybe JEA would be better served by hiring a public relations specialist instead of an attorney.

justsome1here,
Here we go again. You constantly comment on this and other issues and have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. The only thing you do is try to find something to complain about then somebody proves you wrong with facts and you look for something else. Please stop it, this is very annoying and some people (obviously not you) may be on here to get more information on the subject matter. If you want to complain about something at least have some facts to make an argument legitament. This is a request and not an "ultimatum"

hpytchr: That offer is the same as the QEO!

justsome1here: You are just as bad as the JSD only stating part of the facts. Yes Sun Prarie decided to pay a portion of the premium. You failed to mention that they currenty are receiving 100% coverage without any co-pays or deductibles. The School Board in Sun Prarie proposed that teachers pay 2% and 4% of the premium. 2% if they are in the health and wellness program and 4% if they decide not to join the program. If a family plan cost $20000.00 2% is only 400.00 and 4% is 800.00 for the year!!! How can the JSD justify that the JEA pay 5% and 10% if they already have a surplus? By the way 10% is $1776.00 for the year, this is a little different scenario than Sun Prarie. You also failed to mention that Sun Prarie is not self funded! Stop leaving out information,publish the facts!

I am unhappy with the current situation and would be very happy to recieve the percent of income raise that the district has offered. The actual offer is posted on the bottom of a Gazette acticle from Feb. 19th. I believe that this is the largest cost of living raise in this area. As for the insurance, my husband has a Masters degree, also has an important job, makes about the same as a teacher with a Masters and pays a portion of his insurance. I also don't like statements that sound as if we think our profession is the most important job in the city. Every job is important regardless of the amount of education you have. See the offer here. http://www.gazettextra.com/news/2008/feb...

Every year there is a new batch of young teachers graduating. If current teachers are so unhappy, maybe they should just quit or retire and let these young teachers come in, they would love to have this pay and health care. Teachers quit whinning!!!!

Yes, times are changing...but I believe Sun Prairie settled for an unbelievably low premium - something to the tune of $70 per YEAR for a single person. The JSD REJECTED a JEA proposal for a small (though bigger than seventy bucks a year!)set dollar amount premium for teachers. Teachers do not want to pay premiums but did put out a compromising offer - not good enough for the JSD though! It's their way or the highway...No compromise on their part...remember, they'll drag the teachers "kicking and screaming" because everybody else is doing it (paying premiums). Great lesson for the kids - JUMP! After all, everyone else is doing it, but I digress...

The teachers may be ready for the QEO, but the health care issue will only be delayed, not disappear. It was reported not to long ago that teachers in Sun Prairie will begin paying premiums for health insurance. The times they are a changing.

I do not feel the JSD is acting in good faith at all.
QEO the JEA and be done with it!

I think the huge issue here is that the public actually believes that the JSD is negotiating in good faith. Is it good faith not to compromise on any issue? They (JSD) literally has shot down every single compromise that the JEA has proposed! Including premium payments regarding health insurance! The JEA proposed paying a fixed dollar amount, yet the district will only accept a percentage amount. A percentage of a cost that they feel is appropriate. In previous articles the JSD is asking the JEA to pay 5% or 10% plus 80/20 in copays and deductibles. The amount that the JSD feels is appropriate is $17776.00 for a family plan. Next contract it will be $21,000.00. After that it will be $24,000. When will it ever stop, how much longer can they hide the fact that they are making millions of dollars off of the teachers as well as the public. I hope the JSD will stop the madness and just QEO the JEA! And if you read the article accurately, the QEO is a better offer than what the JSD is willing to propose to the teachers. The JSD should quit threatening the JEA and just do it. If you have not already noticed the teachers are ready for it!!

The teachers don't want to pay a part of there insurance. I would love to only have to pay $100 a month. We have Ins at my husbands work and pay nearly $700 a month. With a 30 dollar copay on drugs and dental is another $100 a month I work for the district and if I wanted there insurance I would have to pay the entire premium. I know some aides that do and it takes most of there checks!

"Evert emphasized the board still wants a voluntary settlement." "The JEA is still willing to listen to any change in offer from the school district and would welcome a voluntary settlement,” the statement reads.
Key phrase of "change in offer" sounds like an ultimatium.

Maybe reading the whole article would help - was there an attorney invovle? Maybe that's what they were advised:
"The JEA statement said members met with their attorney before deciding to forego the mediation session."

Who's not negotiating?
“The JEA is still willing to listen to any change in offer from the school district and would welcome a voluntary settlement,” the statement reads."

badgelvr,
My child tested out at the advanced levels in all areas.
You may not know this but there are thousands of home schooling networks that are there to help other parents in areas when/if they need it. Also, the program I was involved with does have licensed, qualified teachers. Thanks

BTW...Are you aware of how many presidents, composers, inventors, etc. that were home schooled?

Stalemate. Nobody wins and Everybody loses (especially the students).

wisconsinheat,
You are exactly right, enough is enough and this is exactly the point the JEA is trying to get across. So please do encourage the board to end this (QEO) so we can get the 3.8% and keep our insurance benefit. Thanks for your support.

huntfish1,
Past offers don't really matter in mediation sessions. Anything on the table can change in the blink of an eye, that's the mediators job.

I think JEA leadership(?) had some very lame excuses for not being able to meet with the mediator the first time, and I think this is even more ridiculous. If they were truly serious about settling they would be there.
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Maybe they wouldn't reach an agreement but like I said, they have nothing to lose by trying. If it is at an impasse then let the mediator declare such and go from there. But by refusing to even meet, no matter how unproductive they THINK it might be is inexcusable and I for one have had all I can take of these "tactics."
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I'll be encouraging the board to end it. Enough is enough.

The school board is complaining about paying for good teachers? isn't that a little counterprodustive when your trying to hold your city up as a respectable place of learning?

Its one thing to squabble over money when your not the highest rated school system. Its another thing entirely when your not on top and your not offering enough to attract qualified individuals.

The smartest people in all fields are in business. they ae not teaching, a few very smart people do teach but for their own reasons. In order to get the real teachers you have to pay good money. When was the last time CEO taght in a high school? Wouldn't that person have a lot more to offer than someone your paying $50k a year to teach economics?

wisconsinheat-
It makes no sense to continue to mediate or meet with the School Board when their offer is worse than what the QEO would get the teachers. Why bother meeting with the board and waste everyone's time when the board has not intention of bettering their offer.

I think some of you missed an important sentence in this story,“The QEO offer is better than what they’ve offered,” Parr said. The JEA has tried and tried again to compramise but the JSD is unwilling to budge. Therefore what is the point. The article did not say the JEA wasn't willing to negotiate. It said this meeting will be a waste of time because of the lack of negotiating done by the JSD. If they were to put a half way acceptable offer on the table the JEA would be there to work with them.
As for public support for the teachers-there is little to none the way it is. We picket and people are outraged. We work the hours our contract says and not volunteer (working with your kids and giving up time with our own) and we are a disgrace to the profession.
This maybe a strategy to tell the district that we are not going to give in on every single thing they demand from us and will stand our ground. Did you ever think they don't want this to get to QEO becuase then taxpayers will see just how much they are burning you for?

Trish...no doubt some home schooled kids are well taught and bonding does take place. However, I would bet that that is an exception. It would be an interesting longitudinal study to determine if home schooled students actually do better at home rather than in a public school. How many parents that home school their kids are actually qualified? That also would be an interesting study. How many teachers are qualified to teach students in areas they aren't certified? Are "you" qualified to teach your child Calculus? How about Physics? Are you fluent in Spanish, German, or French? If you are, then you should be in the public school system sharing your expertise with others. If you aren't, you may be doing your child a disservice.

That was a typo....QEO>

Having been directly involved in mediation and arbitration sessions personally, I can say, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it takes more than one session
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As far as I'm concerned, there is NO valid reason not to meet with a mediator for the second session unless the JEA just doesn't want to settle. They have nothing to lose by meeting.
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I've backed the teachers but held certain reservations on the contract until some insurance questions are answered, but by refusing to even meet with the arbitrator again, I find that inexcusably poor leadership on behalf of the JEA.
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I now think it's time for the board to end this nonsense and impose the QEU.

badgerlvr
I did home school. I loved it and they did extremely well with the program we had! I think it was a very good bonding experience for both myself and my child. It was fun.
Now you'll ask why I am not still doing it so I'll just give you the answer now. Social interaction and sports.

Back on topic, I don't blame the teachers or the JEA for refusing to hit the tables again with the Janesville Administration. Been there, done that. They talk in circles and nothing gets resolved.
I support the teachers. Unfortunately, Professor, you don't get to pick and chose which ones to support, you have to support them all.(Or not support any) What I wouldn't give if we could weed out the bad ones, the ones that have lost their passion to teach or were never very good at it to begin with. But, I have been in the schools. From grade school to high school and I am amazed at the way some of the kids act, talk, behave. I probably would have lost my passion too.
On the kids' side, in my opinion, they aren't allowed to be kids anymore. The "0" tolerance idea is out of control. I have heard all the stories of this teacher or that teacher swearing, throwing notebooks, a coffee cup, screaming, etc. Oh, and let's not forget the "Dunlap Rap". Pretty bad when they had a name for it, IMO.

Futureteacher, I personally like the young, passionate teachers over the ones just waiting for retirement. Not that all the teachers nearing retirement are just waiting for it, some hope that day never comes. You can tell by talking to them which one they are.

Badgerlvr- Been homeschooling 5 years already and doing just fine. So when are we supposed to be whistling a different tune? And there are lots more just like us. Some are even former licensed teachers themselves.

FYI, this IS a common conversation in the Education Dept at UW-Whitewater. Why cant teachers just set up shop like doctors, private business entities. They have set the bar, you get what you pay for. If you dont want to pay for the best thing out there for the future of your own children, so be it! Too bad after all is said and done and there are those who realize that they can not afford good education but could have supported embetterment of the public system.

Future Teacher,
In addition to that, take a look at the south in this country where public education has been devalued to the point that anyone considered barely middle class sacrifices to send their children to private schools.

In the end, that is the other alternative, lower taxes and private school k-12 tuition.

Despite my username, I'm not a school teacher. Admittedly, I have to hold my nose when I think of some of the 'bad' teachers, and what they are paid versus what they do. BUT I HASTEN TO ADD, that they are the EXCEPTION. Between day care and school, many kids spend 10-12 hours/day in their most formative years away from parents--if they have any. Pay teachers top dollar, and attract the BEST to the professions which essentially raise our children, so the rest of us can have two-parent incomes, and afford to feed and cloth them.

Northman - Now that was funny!!!

For those of you who don't think the teachers are "worthy", try teaching your little munchkins at home. I'll bet that within two weeks you'll be whistling a different tune.

Oh, they refuse, do they! Don't they know what's good for them? Why, just take the time for a bit of yoga, and meditate, and the next thing you know . . .
Oh, does that say mediate? Never mind!

So when teaching becomes a better occupation privately like say lawyers or doctors and the public system caters only to those who A. dont care about quality teachers, B. cant afford quality teachers, or C. the youngest and cheapest teachers available, where will all you who look down on this whole thing be? Kissing your childrens future goodbye? Teaching them to ask whether they "want fries with that?" Be good little robots on the line? How blissful ignorance must be.

I know many teachers in this community and, yes, they do know how little support they have in this community. Isn't it pathetic! Look at the parent support when a teacher calls home--little, look at the number of parents who attend conferences for their middle and high school students--few, look at the disrespectful students teachers deal that more than likely learn that behavior at home--many, listen to the swearing and constant delinquent behavior in the halls--over and over all day! People/kids in this town have little respect for anyone whether it's the police, teachers, business owners, their own friends and family, etc.

It's not suprising that the Janesville teachers don't want to negoiate. The school district has already tapped the taxpayers for outrageous remodeling projects and are talking up building another high school, so why should the teacher's not get their cut? After all they've never had to compete in the market place to determine they're market value. So, let's not go to hard on these prima donnas because we're a union town and fat pay checks and benefits are part of the local landscape.

I support the teachers in their fight to keep what they have but they need to keep the talks going. I agree, pulling out is not winning public support. I know it seems like a waste of time dealing with a board that doesn't concede to anything but they are winning the popularity battle with the public because of things like this. Stay with the negotiations no matter what, it makes the JEA look more proffesional!

I wonder if the teachers have noticed how little public support they appear to have? Situations such as this do little to help their image with the rest of the community. Maybe they need to talk less and pay more attention to the prevailing attitudes among the taxpayers.

until you people who are complaining, go back to school and get a degree to help educate today's youth, i suggest you stop criticizing those who devote their energy into enhancing the education of the younger generations.

you are simply pathetic.

I will also say that lots of us in JVL would like to stand behind the teachers but unprofessional behaviour such as pulling out of meetings at the last minute is disheartening, to say the least. Is that the kind of example that you want to set for our children, your students? Good morals include keeping meetings that one has commited to.

Of course the district has a big healthcare fund- that is what happens when a district is self-insured. If JEA is SO sure that the district is skimming or mismanaging the healthcare fund, then a complaint should be filed with the state insurance board. Has that been done? If not, then do it! I'm sure that all taxpayers would like to know if their tax dollars are being mismanaged.

The Gazette does a good job of making us look like we are "giving" up. Considering that at the last mediation the schoolboard said "no" to every proposal (with the exception of two small details), whats the point of going on? Those mediations went on for 8 hours (not to mention the MONTHS that this nonsense has gone on for)we are tired of justing meeting resistance on everything we put before them. They claim to be willing to negotiate, but saying "no" isn't doing that at all.

The district has money, they have been taking holidays from paying our premiums (saving, and pocketing MILLIONS of dollars) and now they want us to pay in? Why, that doesn't make sense. Perhaps at a point when the money is down, but that is certainly not the case.

“The QEO offer is better than what they’ve offered,” Parr said. The handwriting is on the wall. Better grab it an run.