Yes, teachers may have Christmas off (Usually only a little over a week--many jobs have Christmas Day and New Year's Day off so it's not that many more days than the public! Other local companies shut down during Christmas...Gilman for one.) and Spring Break, but teachers have no flexibility as to when they can take a vacation. I know teachers who have missed special family events because they can't take vacations day whenever they want.

Clyde: What is stopping you? You can go and get your degree and have that time off to! Sounds like you are a little bit jealous?!

I respect teachers for what they do but I really get tired of hearing about how they are treated unfairly. How many other jobs give you summers off and Christmas for two weeks off and a spring break off? Give me a break.

moco428 - no I'm not saying that $42,000 is "a lot of money" (although I do think it is a healthy living for a 10 month contract "year"), nor was I implying that it was a starting wage. I used the $42,000 figure because that is the amount "Why_teach_in_Janesville" used in his/her blog when he/she was talking about the increase in salary after now paying a premium for insurance. My point was not about how much (or how "litte")money teachers make but about hoping they would stop with the "we don't get paid in the summer" thing they are always saying. Fine - $42,000 for not a year, but for 10 months work. That probably sounds pretty darn good to people who make less than that for a full-year's work. And contrary to what so many teachers seem to think, there are a GREAT MANY of us who make less than they do.

fattigman - You discouraged a prospective teacher from entering the school district and you blame the JSD for stirring up resentment? I hope your "honest" advice was professional and objective and that you encouraged this individual to research the advantages and disadvantages of all the districts they were interested in before making a decision.

But isn't that the inevitable process of just about any labor / management relationship where a union is involved, public or private?
That doesn't mean unions are inherently bad.
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I would guess the alternative is private, non-unionized education, which does now exist and is always an option for those who want to avail themselves of it.

Heat:

The union prefers rigid pay grids based solely on seniority and post-graduate college credits. Good teacher are held down by poor teachers, teachers that are in demand or short supply (math and science) cannot command more $ because they are paid on a rigid grid system. These friends of the public education status quo are foes of a better-educated public.

TCB
I think we agree, but I'm not sure what you mean by "artificial price controls in the form of a union and good teacher languish unable to command more $ while bad teachers are rewarded with tenure and lifetime employment."?
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Until there's a tried and true way to measure teacher productivity, this is the way it will always be.
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This is a fact of public employment whether it be education or other.

Moco:

Does your wife believe the union caved? Just curious.

37K, 2 months off in summer, plus your income plus essentially free health insurance and a fully funded tax payer pension, is a good deal. Many would switch places in a heart beat. Janesville School district and the tax payers are not going out of business any time soon.

Heat:

Its really a simple economic equation. Supply exceeds demand. When supply exceeds demand, the price of supply will be low. Mix in artificial price controls in the form of a union and good teacher languish unable to command more $ while bad teachers are rewarded with tenure and lifetime employment.

tammyk: Have you ever heard of a typo???????????????????????? That does not mean that I can't spell. It mean's that I made mistake while typing and nothing more than that. I guess you don't ever make mistakes right??? Grow up, if you can't provide anything to the article then don't post. There is always someone that has to take to an issue with spelling..

I'd also like to make a correction to the statement I made earlier about the wages. It is ~ $4500 more than I orginally posted, but that is still not a huge amount of money.

Just curious, but I wonder how many current teachers, when trying to get their first job, actually sat down and compared salaries and benefits per school district?
How many do it today?
I would venture to guess, not many. Based on educators I know, most, if not all, were happy to get in wherever they could. And once in, not very many leave.
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And it's still an employer's market.
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The same discussion was held in past years when the Janesville Police Dept. lowered the starting wage for new officers. That argument never came to fruition then, and I don't think it will with JSD teachers either.
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Granted, some people in all professions will leave for a variety of reasons, but to try to pin it on one contract (or more) is simply not reasonable.

May I add that the district does an outstanding job supporting me materially as an educator? I never want for text books, supplies, or adequate working conditions.

Times are tough. I know the financial duress of some of my students' families. I would never complain about my salary.

I do however believe the that taxpayers of Janesville are being ill-served by the current district leadership in this matter.

Attracting and retaining the highest quality people is the heart of education.

fatigman:

Your are correct, I do not know you and if my opinion was deemed as a personal attack, I apologize.

I the gazette wishes to print salary information, I believe this is public data, I will take you at your word if Evert misrepresented salary. Fault the gazette for failing to proof source their data.

Competitive disadvantage-no. Only if you are defining advantages or disadvantages based on base salary. Cost of living, I believe, is higher in Dane county than in Rock county and with the looming spector of inflation, I'd rather be in Rock than in Dane, because your dollar will go farther.

Again, there is not a mass exodus of teachers (or counselors) going to other districts. If I were to guess I would say the number that leave (for higher base salaries) on an annual basis is less than 10%, maybe even less than 5%-I dont know I am only guessing. I would think that retirement attrition is higher. Because on balance, while teacher salaries are low comparatively to other college graduates, the benefit packages are lavish compared to private business. One tatic, I hope you concede, is the fact the union does not want the general public to know what the total annual cost per teacher is. Most people earning 50-60K per year (a good living) cannot afford to save 20-30k annually in retirement (in fact 15500 is the max 401k tacfree contribution), however, a very young teacher (<10 years of experience) does this every year. Its a fabulous retirement package (one that GM employees would love)-but to continually complain about relative lower base salary is tiresome, especially when empirical data demonstrate student achievement is not tied to teacher salary.

As a taxpayers, those moving to the district have to examine the district as a whole. This includes a miriad of characteristics: one of which is school ratings. I have children and when I have moved I considered not only the neighborhood but how that respective schools rank compared to its peers (among other issues). I think most parents consider this in addition to location.

I agree with those who are concerned that the union and JSD leaked the basics of the contract in advance of the vote to ratify. Much of what I said could be moot if a majority of teachers vote no. My thought is that there is a lot of fatigue surrounding this issue and it will pass, but I could be wrong. There are a few militants on both sides of the issue (who coincently also receive the most press)

MOCO428 - has your teacher wife taught you that 'teachering' is not a word?

I agree that Janesville as a community has a lot to offer. I also agree that we have by and large wonderful students and parents.

To the previous poster: You do not know me or anything about my teaching. So I will disregard your speculation.

I obviously hope that salary is not a person's only consideration in choosing a place to lay down professional roots. As a taxpayer I hope we make reasonable efforts to welcome and retain the best possible candidates. From purely a business standpoint, however, offering some of the lowest salaries in the big eight puts us at a competitive disadvantage.

JSD and the Gazette have not been forthcoming in salary comparisons. At a recent meeting at Franklin Middle School, a teacher called Dr. Evert out on a recent misrepresentation of salaries published by the Gazette. Most schools in the big eight top out 15 years or more beyond Janesville. Dr. Evert conceded the point but a retraction was never printed.

I personally know some excellent teachers who decided to leave. One counselor went to the Madison area and immediately received a $7,000/year raise.

I am not saying the sky is falling. The schools will not come to a screeching halt. Positions will be filled and the job will get done as it always has. However like everyone I want what's best for this community. Creating a hostile climate toward educators is not, in my opinion, a winning strategy.

fattigman:

Do you have evidence that attrition occurs due to beginning salaries. We constantly hear of the threat that teachers are leaving becuase they are not respected or they are not paid enough, etc. Is there anyway to quantify this? I know many teachers emote and if 1 teacher leaves janesville to go to another district in Wisconsin or elsewhere that is evidence, in your mind. But you and I know its anecdotal at best. It is not symptomatic of a problem in Janesville.

As for student loan for new teachers, you should not be worried about this-this does not concern you at all. One of the things that makes america great is the fact if you want to go to college, someone-will help you fund your education. The risk of default is much lower on college graduates than those who voluntarily choose to quit school. Banks understand this risk and they are willing to invest their capital in people willing to better themselves.

Janesville is a great community. In the long run, it will continue to be a great community. Your scare tactic of disreputable schools is straight out of the union handbook. Does Janesville lack diversity, absolutely, but on balance, its a great place to raise a family with hard working parents, good schools, and it is safe.

Lastly, your comment "JSD has stirred up ignorance and resentment toward professionals in this community" who are the pofessionals that you refer to? Do you speak for the entire union? Perhaps you will show the person whom you advised not to "sign up" (as if they were enlisting) to teach in Janesville that you stand behind your own advice, leave the JSD and find a community that fits your utopian vision of respect and rookie pay.

Suspicioulsy absent from your post is the concern over the education your students receive from you. But then again, my guess is that you are not interested in the students, you're interested in rookie pay and allievating professional resentment (platitudes)

csense: Here's an FYI for you. Starting teachers don't make $42,000 a year. My wife has been teachering for 10 years (no masters degree) and is only making $37,000 a year, and that is far from being overpaid! Just because someone does a job because they love it does not mean they should get low pay and erroding benefits.

csense: Is $42,000 really that much money? That is bearly lower middle class as far as money is concerned. Teaching shapes our future, it helps mold the generations to come. If JSD can only attract the teachers that graduated at the bottom of their class, what have we gained? We will have less than stellar teachers shaping the youth of our community. Is that really what you want? The deal that is laid forth is not a good deal! The fact that it was put out for us to read before it has been ratified is unfair. The union leadership caved and I hope the teachers vote NO. What do the teachers have to lose? It seems that much of the public thinks they are a bunch of whiners anyway, why not continue the fight. Everyone seems to forget that the district is misusing your tax dollars and you all seem OK with that. I think the JEA did a wonderful job of exposing that, but no one really cares to listen. Unfortunately the public perception of a teacher around here is poor, everyone thinks they get a ton of time off and are overpaid. I challenge any one of you to try their job for a week with the youth of today. They are not as easy to deal with as we were when we were children. Teachers did not enter the field to become rich, but they did have great benefits which now are being stripped from them. JEA, DON"T LAY DOWN FOR THE JSD!

Who doesn't start out in a job in debt? College is expensive no two ways about it. If your right out of college in any job you are on the bottom rung. That's why they call it a "starting" wage. I think from what I have read that the contract is very fair. In this day and age everybody needs to give a little. a three and a half pay raise every year guaranteed is not bad. Some people don't get a raise every year and certainly not that big of a raise. You couldn't have gone into the teaching industry thinking you were going to be rich. Teachers I know do it because the like the job.

Mysevilla--If you are going to say that $42,000 is their salary for the 10 months they are contracted, I would say they have an even sweeter deal yet!! No matter how you slice it, 10 months, 12 months, 2 months, 6 months -- I will say it again - $42,000 is $42,000 is $42,000.

The contract has not been ratified. I am a teacher and I will vote no.

All things being equal, I say QEO us.

Why is this district so reluctant to be QEO'ed? Is it because they will have to open their books?

I fear the damage has been done. You will see a slow trickle of smart young teachers away from Janesville. The word is out. Janesville will become a stepping stone to better districts, or a dumping ground for those who couldn't move on.

Being QEO'ed will be an unmistakable black mark on the district's ledger, and a warning sign: Enter At Your Own Risk.

What happens to property values in communities with disreputable schools?

JSD has stirred up ignorance and resentment toward professionals in this community. The Gazette has been its hand maiden.

I am satisfied with my salary. I am concerned about the rookie teachers. Most I know are entering JSD with more debt than their first year salaries.

A prospective young teacher recently asked me about teaching in Janesville. I had to answer honestly, "I don't think this is a very good time to sign on with the School District of Janesville."

rainman,
I agree with you 100%. This shouldn't have been released by the JSD or JEA until ratified or not ratified (hopefully). This is an ongoing problem with the JSD. They put information in the paper before telling the teachers. WE get our information from the paper the same time everyone else does. Snow day make up. Evert decided we were working saturdays without even consulting the JEA. And yes I do think they release this to strong arm the teachers into cooperating or accept the rath of the public if they disagree. This is the kind of small behind the back insulting the district does on a regular basis that the general public doesn't see.

thinkaboutit:

I hope you ar not a math teacher! Did you calculate your fully funded pension (which probably is indexed to inflation) into the mix as well?

I would support mmediately increasing teacher salary by 30% if the school district offered a defined contribution plan (i.e. 401k) vs. a defined benefit plan (life long pension at 75% of your highest salary) The cost of employing teachers are the benefits-not the salaries.

thinkaboutit,
I did. And I commend you for the extra time you volunteer to put in to various activities.
But the fact is you are paid according to your contract. For X number of hours. As are most people in the workforce.
Volunteering is not unique to the teaching profession.
Volunteering is just that. Not expecting to be paid for it.
Many people in many different jobs volunteer for a variety of reasons. Some to keep pace with their job duties. Some just to be be kind.
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If you are saying that you must put in extra hours just to fulfill your job requirements, then that sounds like a contract issue and should be addressed as such.
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If everyone that volunteered figured it into their wage, we'd all be below minimum wage.

As a former teacher negotiator for ten years in a Wisconsin public school system, I find it difficult to believe the union leaders and school board would release details of the contract PRIOR TO A DISCUSSION AND VOTE BY THE UNION MEMBERSHIP. This is very unprofessional by both parties. Is this the board of education's way of making the teachers look bad if it is not ratified?

tjncj:

You and Ican agree to disagree. However, much of the debate prior to tentatively agreeing was the issue over paying a tiny portion of the health insurance premium. Many on this board (some teacher some not teacher) thought it was a fair offer by the JSD. Many did not, who knows if it will pass.

You can bet that win it comes time for the next contract, this will be an issue again. The JSD has opened to the door to increases in teacher premiums-this is not debateable. The union was not able to negiotiate a deal that did not include premium contribution. The union knows that the JSD will show higher than average operating costs, declining enrollment, and the teachers at the next contract will be required to pay an even larger portion of their health insurance premium......in my opinion the union failed.

I have no idea what union dues cost each member every year, but I hope the union membership believes the get what they pay for. The union can gnash its teeth and hope that their membership realizes that they tried really really hard this time-but lost. Perhaps if the membership paid more in dues the union leadership would have done a better job? I bet Tom Evert is laughing his you know what off...

fbcoach66
I don't really think anyone cares about the discussion of this topic due to the fact that everything I stated was announced in a Newsconference and not to mention in the article printed above.
"3.31 and 3.5% are huge and more than makes up for those small premiums". Read my previous post.

I don't work in the Janesville area but show me a teacher that works only their contracted hours - nothing extra.
Ha ha, not too many of those out there. There are a few teachers out there that can get away with that, but not many.
Many teachers also serve as volunteer members of various committees, coaches, advisors, etc... (the extra pay for some of those is also nothing more than a nice gesture).

All of a sudden they are spending WAY more than 40 hours/week working (and spending more time with some children than their own parents). There are more and more kids each year that spend their free time at school because they don't want to go home!
In addition to that, you need to factor in various school work, grading, etc... done at home outside normal/contracted work hours.

After all things factored in, I spend 55-60+ hours/week at my school on average (I am involved in a number of extra things). I figured out what I made per hour last year and it was ridiculously low!!!

Now do your math. I spend more hours working each year than the average worker you used as an example (and in only 9 months mind you) and I get paid less than that same average worker.

I guess teachers don't earn the money they make thought. Our society really seems to put a premium on the education of our students [/sarcasm]!

I chose to go into this profession so the pay isn't what I am most concerned about (I do think we are underpaid for such an important job). When people complain that teachers make too much money, it really gets my blood boiling though!

No matter how you slice it and dice it, It's a 12 month equivalent wage.

Actually, teachers are not contracted in the summer. They can just choose to have their pay on a 10 or 12 month schedule. Many teachers choose 10 months because otherwise the district collects on the interest. So no, teachers are not "paid" in the summer. If a teacher can't figure out how to budget for 2 months of unemployment, the district does it for them.

Sorry csense, you beat me to the punch.

csense
Re-read WITiJ's post and re-do your math.
What his post says is the 39.75 per check is AFTER the premium deduction of 43.00 per month, which translates to 21.50 per check.
Thus 61.25 - 21.50 = 39.75.

Saturday math class?

Forgive me "Why I teach." I just reread your posting and noted that your figure was after you pay the insurance premium and that your figure is indeed correct. I apologize!
I stand by the rest of my statement though.

Forgive me "Why I Teach" but if a teacher makes 42,000/year and gets a 3.5% raise, doesn't that equal an increase of $1,470, which when divided by 24 paychecks equals $61.25, not the much lower figure you stated? Also, thank you for pointing out to all, that you receive 24 paychecks per year, two per month, so in fact, you do get paid for the summer months when you are not working. $42,000 a year is $42,000 a year whether you divide it by 24 checks, 20 checks, or 2 checks - it all adds up the same. I am so tired of teachers claiming that they don't get paid for the summer months. $42,000 per year for a teacher working 190 days is the same as $42,000 for someone who is not a teacher who typically works 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year (2 week vacation per year) and that adds up to working 250 days. That is 60 more than teachers do and a typical worker works 8 hour days, while a teacher's contract day is 7:45-3:45 and that eight hours includes their lunch hour, prep times, and time before and after school without students. So, teachers - accept your contract and quit your complaining.

Why Teach... I don't know about your union, but mine would flip about discussing specifics of a tenative agreement in a public forum. I'd talk to my union rep. I'm assuming you do teach in the Janesville Sch. Dist.

Another thing, taxpayers should be expecting to see a decrease in your taxes since the JSD is going to be making more money off the teachers. Bet that doesn't happen either, they will strong arm you the way they did us.

Don't let the article fool you. This is not that great of a deal. If a teacher makes 42,000 and gets a 3.5% raise next year that means his check will go up $39.75 a check (24 checks per year) after paying the $43 premium per month. Before taxes by the way. After taxes they may see $30. Yippee. I personally hope this goes to QEO so the JSD has to be transparent with thier spending in the past year not only for the JEA sake but also for the taxpayer sake. They could keep the $30 bucks if this would happen. They still have not given any justification for this premium payment.

I hope there is no complaining about this contract. My wife & I did not get raises last year, yet prices of everything keep going up.

TCB likes debating with the teachers and was possibly trying to get a reaction. I think they are wisely staying off the blogs while this goes through the process. I would gladly "cave" for the insurance and the raise they are getting.

word

TCB I wouldn't say the union caved. They made sure it was a fixed dollar amount not a percentage. That way it will need to be negotiated to go up.

Also, salary increases more than covers it. Think of it this way your boss sells the parking lot you use. Now you have to pay $30 a month to pay to park, but he gives you a $250 a month raise instead of the $200 you previously agreed on. You come out a head $20.

I'd gladly take that deal or this teachers deal. They usually get stuck with 1.9 to 2.1% raises 3.31 and 3.5% are huge and more than makes up for those small premiums.

Still a very rich health plan. Shouldn't be a single complaint about this given what the private sector pays. Nope, not a word.

"Teachers would begin paying premiums for their health insurance for the first time starting Sept. 1 if they vote to ratify. Some teachers have expressed concern that paying premiums opens the door to premium increases in the future"

The teachers are correct. Incrementalism today-a greater share of the premium tomorrow. Looks like the union caved.

Don't complain about $17/month premium for single coverage. I pay $175/month and 20% co-pay for everything on my company's group coverage. You getting a heck of a deal.

I agree that it seems fair. Average increases of 4% plus would be a dream come true in industry. The premiums may be a sticking point, but they are very low when compared to most plans. A 3% raise and your insurance going up only 10-15% a year is a good year in places I have seen lately. I also think the premium holiday was a clever addition. Maybe I'll take this to the higher ups where I work so they can get a good laugh today. I hope this is passed and we can all move on.

Take it. You ought to ask others in industries where labor was formerly considered "safe" what the heck they're paying to provide health insurance to their families. These premiums are almost a joke. But they AREN'T a joke -- so take it. Your deductibles look fair. Your prescription plan is better than most these days, where suddenly working people are paying a percentage of their prescription costs, and that makes for impossible budgeting and horrifying surprises. Sometimes kids go without antibiotics for potentially life-threatening illnesses. In families where minimum wage is the rule, sixty bucks is a budget-buster. This is a solid plan for you. Good luck to all.