Gina, the statement "...spitin' on ya and everything..." does not come off as a reference to a specific incident but instead as a learned generalization in the form of an aquired false memory. False memory is a real human phenomenon. (This is the nicest thing I can say about the statement.)

Note the absence of consequence.

And then put it all in the context of the literature on the "spit myth".

We all agree that, generally, returning Vietnam veterans were held in low regard. This low regard spanned both sides of the political spectrum.

The left benefited from it politically and the right adopted it for reasons I don't even want to think about.

Just for more information, you can listen to veteran John Petterson talk about the spitting incident here: http://www.gazettextra.com/audioclips/78...
Gina Duwe
Reporter

This should be said:

Gina Duwe is a fine reporter. Her use of the myth in question is only evidence of how persistent and strong that myth is.

Maybe it should be thought of as a malignant meme whose only remedy is the revelation of its true nature.

w-heat, what are you babbling about in your Mar 17, 2008, 11:48 post and your other posts here?

If it's the misspelling of sensable, look at your second spelling of irrelevant in that post.

One of the points of my posts here was to stop posts of a certain kind. I succeeded.

Get over this grudge you have against me. It's eating up too much of your energy, buddie.

Proartist: Just recently you blasted efforts to provide overnight shelter for homeless men because of the threat to your neighborhood. You sound like an intelligent person here, so I am confused by these comments regarding veterans. I am sure you know that a very high percentage of our nation's homeless citizens are military veterans. Social services for them are indeed badly needed (as you stated) but until the services are in place and offer immediate emergency housing, why blast a church group's efforts to offer food and warmth until then? Would you rather have those men, whether veterans or not, spending yet another cold night under the nearest bridge?

And yes, most importantly, I'd like to add my thanks to all veterans. Your service is appreciated.

And judging by the number of responses, (not) I'd say irrelevant was indeed the right word.

Gazettefan wrote;
" you should have arrived at a more senseable conclusion. "irrelevant" is the wrong word."
.
And are you saying "senseable" is the right word?
.
That's laughable.
.
Irrevelant trumps.
.
Define "senseable" and get back to us, OK?

Thank you Vietnam veterans for your service and for sharing your stories.

Before the stampeed of defenders rolls in, here's a typical piece that deals with the "spit" issue. It and and many others acertain that it's a myth.

If any one wants to make the defense that it still could have happened to the blogger here who claims it (or something like it) happened to him, know this, the odds tell me it isn't true.

What's important is that the myth had to begin some way. I regret to say that it began with veterans just outright making up "spit" stories.

I resent what it has done to the image of the Vietnam veteran. Certain veterans with the chronic need to feel like victims and those non-veterans who derive enjoyment from that "victimhood" will be made happy by the false claim on this blog.

http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:DV5...

Nice variation on the "consequence element" to the story. "...told to ignore..."

You just perpetuated the myth that Vietnam veterans allowed themselves to be spit on. You perpetuated the harm. Congratulations.

The myth was mentioned in the story as though Vietnam veterans being spat on was commonplace. Further, the odds that a Vietnam veteran was spat on or spat at are astromonmical, if true at all. The odds that such a person would come across this blog are increased exponetially. In any case, you only confess to allowing yourself to be spat AT without consequences. I dont't believe any of it. The odds are overwhelmingly against it.

What weird emotionality and malability of memory that would possess you to make your claim is beyond comprehension. I don't know what's worse: that you actually believe what you claim or that you deliberatly made it up.

The sad truth is that you don't seem to realize what you've done. And the smugness of your post is disturbing. You manifest how the myth began.

You fed into the whole rotten thing. Again, congratulations.

What is believable about your post, though, is that it establishes that you are not a combat vet.

Let me begin with a short history of myself. I am a Korean war veteran - not treated badly. I was in the 4th Inf. Division when we were sent to Berlin at the time the wall was erected. It was a learning experience. Went to a school in 1967 (still in the Army) in Rochester, NY with 4 other soldiers. Military purchased civilian clothing for us and we were told not to wear uniforms. One weekend, we decided to go to Canada. We were in uniform as the Canadians did not charge us entry fees, etc. Stopped at Sears Auto Department (in the basement). As we went down the stairs, we saw a group of college-age persons at the bottom. As we reached the bottom, they started up. On about the 5th step, they turned around and started hissing and calling us names. They then spit at us. We had had instruction on how to respond to just such a situation so we did exactly as we were told - ignored the behavior and continued on our way. You see, we were to act as ambassadors to the public whenever we were in uniform and that meant not responding in like conduct to incidents such as this. By the way, the Canadians treated us with the utmost respect.
In 1967-68, I was stationed at CuChi in VietNam with the 1st Signal Brigade. We were rocketed many nights, mess halls blown up by booby traps, etc. On one occasion, the North Vietnamese did manage in infiltrate our area and blew up several helicopters, killing some of our personnel.
When I returned to the States, the first thing I did was change into civilian clothes and proceed home to my wife and children.
So, you see, I am writing as a veteran who went through these experiences personally. It DID happen and not just to me.

tugger, Yes.

It seems to me the point of the story is to have people think fondly of Vietnam veterans.

This a noble purpose and debunking the myth that Vietnam veterans were spit on goes to that end.

No veteran in the article makes the "spit" statement, not even as a secondhand account. The statement just appears there as though it is forever floating in the air and is as true as death and taxes.

I said to an earlier blogger here that the missing ingredient to the myth is that the consequence of being spit on is never stated; and that alone is reason enough to not believe the myth.

She claims that an Air Force veteran was spat on by an old lady. Here the missing ingredient is dealt away in the form of an old lady that no self-respecting man would react to physically. Convenient. At least the blogger stopped short of having the expectorating assailent be a nun or Mother Theresa.

There is no angle on the myth that benefits Vietnam veterans. Even the angle of sympathy doesn't work. Even if someone wanted sympathy, why would anyone want sympathy based on the myth of being spit on?

This myth is only a small part of the damage done to the image of Vietnam veterans. The wide scope of damage done to that image is in the public mind.

Here's a test:

Vietnam veterans should be regarded in the same way that World War II vets are regarded:

If that statement is unacceptable to you in any way, I've made my point.

gazettefan: you are a viet nam vet? I am surprised. I have had u pegged wrong all along.....

wisconsinheat, if you read and truly comprehended the posts I was responding to and my post, you should have arrived at a more senseable conclusion. "irrelevant" is the wrong word.

jsvlparkergrad, yes, I know about the disrespect toward Vietnam vets. My point was that we weren't literally spat on. It is disrespectful toward Vietnam vets for people to BELIEVE that we were. That myth doesn't help.

As much as I have disagreed with Gazettefan and evansvillehousewife, I usually did respect their opinions. But Gazettefans post of Mar 15 7:17 revealed unequivocally his self- righteous pious attitude to the extent of placing himself in the irrelevant category.

I am a Vietnam-era vet. I did not go to Vietnam, but many of my unit's members had been there. I did not hear much about protesters harrassing any of my unit's members. But I was stationed in a southern city that was home to a lot of military people and retirees.
When I got out in the mid-1970's and was attending the University of Wisconsin, I had joined ROTC. The climate towards veterans and anything military was less than friendly. The ROTC courses I took were credits that counted towards my degree. But ROTC had been kicked off the campus, and we were not allowed to wear our uniforms on campus. There were a few times when we were jeered at and even called "baby-killers" by our fellow students while going to our ROTC classes off campus. But, no, we weren't "spat on". We were just disrespected. Most of the ROTC students had not even been in the military during the Vietnam war.
I am glad to see that people now can separate supporting the troops, even if they don't support the war in Iraq.

The end is near! Head for the hills!!!

Very nice article and a wonderful way to honor these men who served their country. Our history needs to be recorded. What better way then to get it first hand.
Thank you Viet Nam vets!

evansvillehousewife:

Your so-called expression of respect came from an irrational response to a post that debunked a myth that degrades the reputation of Vietnam veterans.

You also managed to mention something that casts a desparaging distorted light on Vietnam vets.

Good luck on your trip and take your baloney with you. Or good luck with your new username, in which case don't take your baloney with you.

I'm not going to get into the argument here because I want this blog to be respectful to the veterans discussed in this article. The air force member I knew that was spat upon was given a tongue lashing as well and the below named incident was mentioned- which is why I mentioned it.
He did not retaliate against the 60 something year old lady that did it.
Either way- I'm pulling up roots and moving on- literally. This is my last post here as I am moving out of the state tomorrow.
Again,thank you veterans.

proartist; Being disgruntled by war goes hand in hand with war. And veterans of all wars are probably united in their resentment toward a lack of proper treatment from the government on the war front as well as on the home front.

But that does not mean that they are united against any particular war. Even Vietnam vets are not united in opposition to our presence in Vietnam. The great majority of Vietnam veterans support our original reasons for figthing in Vietnam and do not regret having served.

This truth is over-shadowed by high-profile but small in-number anti-war activists and certain books, movies, and TV shows.

As for the Vietnam War itself, it will probably take several more generations or decades for the proper analysis to place that war as hot battle in the Cold War against Soviet/Stalinist expansionism and Maoist expansionism. This is how the Vietnam War will taught in the acadamy once the tenured radicals and other members of the hard-left fall by the wayside.

Despite the fact that the war was lost in regard to preserving an anti-communist South Vietnames regime, it did forstall and prevent the establishment of communist regimes in other countries in that region of the world.

And though it had no ground troops in Vietnam, the Soviet Union spent billions of dollars supporting the communist North Vietnamese and its stalinist dictator Ho Chi Minh. This expense for the Soviet Union contributed to its eventual bankrupcy and dissolution. With the dissembling of the Soviet Union came the fall of the Iron Curtain and the crumbling of the Berlin Wall.

You will not get the truth about the Vietnam War from Oliver Stone's movies (Stone is a self-hating Vietnam vet), Born on the Fourth of July and Platoon, any more than you will get the truth about the Kennedy assassination from his movie JFK.

The fact that you are able to protest the war in Iraq here with a reasonable amount of comfort, shows that troops who die our wars do not die in vain.

gazettefan: At least one Iraq veteran does appreciate the anti-war movement as was demonstrated today at the Milton Ave. march when one courageous vet just recently back from multiple tours in Iraq stopped to thank everyone who was participating. The stories he related were heart-breaking and the lack of care he now gets from the VA is absolutely shameful. I hope the Gazette reporter who was covering the march is allowed to publish some of his comments tomorrow for they are a lesson everyone should heed. And, yes, we will continue to march and speak out against this war because of our patriotism not for lack of it.

evansvillehousewife, since we agree with the use of that metaphor, let's put it aside.

I don't know what you mean by "literary miscommunication" in this case.

If you are saying that you believe that Vietnam vets being literally spat upon was commonplace, I still disagree. And your account of it happening to someone you know is secondhand for me. What did he say he did after he was spat on?

(Also, a Vietnam Era vet is not a Vietnam Vet. He is someone who was in the military during the Vietnam War but was stationed somewhere other than Vietnam. Though, I suppose that someone who chose to spit on a man in uniform wouldn't necessarily know that.)

You didn't do any Vietnam veteran any favor here by mentioning My Lai. What happened there grossly distorts how Vietnam veterans performed in general throughout the war. Despite My Lai, there were still more murders stateside per capita then were committed by Americans in Vietnam on anyone. The killing that took place under the rules of engagement were legal and not murder. The war was the result of a legal declaration of war by the United States Congress. It was not, as some people claim, an "illegal war."

Again, I am with all vets in their complaints about maltreatment by the goverment.

What has to be understood, though, is that a lot of beliefs about Vietnam vets while believed to complimentary and sympathetic are quite the opposite. Indeed, those beliefs feed into an insulting and harmful stereotype.

I don't want anyone to believe that someone could spit on me without consequences.

Well, gazettefan, you make an excellent example of literary miscommunication.
I read it as a metaphor AND literary meaning. I have, indeed, heard first hand accounts of a Vietnam era vet being spat upon- once in an airport shortly after the MyLai massacre.
Metaphorically, it is being used today by soldiers of the Iraqi conflict, to express how they feel abandoned by their military.
Please excuse me.

e-wife, e-fan, what are you two yammering about? I didn't attack veterans in general in any way. I questioned the basis of the few who gave secondhand accounts of vets being spat upon (they didn't witness it); and possibly the credibility of a few vets who claimed they were spat upon. It should be regarded as good news that all this spitting on veterans never took place. Does anyone want it to be true?! Let's hear it if any of you were spat on.

e-wife, I defended you once when you were under attack as a result of someone misreading one of your posts. My original post is my best defense here. Give it another read:

*************************
These claims of being spat upon etc. have been going on for years. (No one in the story above claims it happened to them. Only stated is the belief that it had been going on.)

These claims tend to have the very problem that render urban legends unbelievable, the reports are almost always secondhand: someone knows of it happening, but it didn't happen to them.

When the claim isn't secondhand, it always lacks the important ingrediant of what the veteran did after someone spat on him. Imagine the two most likely consequences:

Either the veteran cut loose on the assailent (and if so, at least some of those veterans would have mentioned doing so, none have) or the veteran did nothing only to leave the listener to wonder what kind of person would allow himself to be spat upon.

I doubt if it happened even once.
****************

If someone wants to use being spat upon as a metaphor for how the county and the government treated Vietnam vets and currently, we are in agreement there.

proartist, I'm not sure all Vietnam vets agree with your celebration of the anti-war movement that took place during the Vietnam War, or currently.

Veterans of Iraq may be treated far better today by the citizenry overall but our government is still "spitting in their faces" by first endangeirng them in a war based upon greed and deceit, and then by not providing adequate medical (physical and mental) care, not upholding their part of the signing military contract (i.e., educational benefits) and worse in the "stop-loss" game. SHAME on everyone who isn't actively telling Congress our government must keep it's promises to our vets to deliver the services and care they deserve. Thank you VietNam vets for your role but ALSO thank you to those who protested with persistence and courage bringing truth to the forefront to bring those veterans all home!

gazettefan, While you are allowed your opinions, honestly, how dare you discount the stories of our own veterans.
They spoke here, bravely, of their own private hell.
Gentlemen, thank you for your courage and honestly.

We are so proud of all of you!!! America is better and stronger because of you! My dad, brother and husband all enlisted so as to serve our country. The article was wonderful and well worth reading. As far as "gazettefan"
goes........your comment shows your ignorance and lack of patriotism. GOD BLESS AMERICA and our veterans!!!!

THANK YOU to each and every one of you!!!!! You served your country proud and well.

These claims of being spat upon etc. have been going on for years. (No one in the story above claims it happened to them. Only stated is the belief that it had been going on.)

These claims tend to have the very problem that render urban legends unbelievable, the reports are almost always secondhand: someone knows of it happening, but it didn't happen to them.

When the claim isn't secondhand, it always lacks the important ingrediant of what the veteran did after someone spat on him. Imagine the two most likely consequences:

Either the veteran cut loose on the assailent (and if so, at least some of those veterans would have mentioned doing so, none have) or the veteran did nothing only to leave the listener to wonder what kind of person would allow himself to be spat upon.

I doubt if it happened even once.