I love google! According to this website: http://www.geocities.com/alcus2/nelsons....

"OZZIE'S OCCUPATION
On the Ozzie and Harriet TV show, it was said that Ozzie's occupation was never known, but in the movie released February 23, 1952, Here Come the Nelsons, he was an associate at the H.J. Bellows Advertising Agency. The movie was the bridge between the Ozzie and Harriet radio and TV show."

Did anyone ever find out what Ozzie Nelson did for a living?

ok, we're straight now, gazettefan. I remembering HEARING about Our Gang from like my grandparents or something, but I missed the wholesome clean shows, except for Leave it to Beaver and Brady Bunch. :D

I meant that site staff dump MY post.

Let's get something straight, sassy, I saw it as decades old reruns. Also, I requested that site staff dump it, all things considered.

before my time, gazettefan. I HAD to say it. :D

Darla was cute!!! (If no one minds my saying so.)

and girls are not the bunk. I can just picture Darla now.

who cares about Valentine's Day? That's just ONE out of 365 days to show love and respect...

"We, the He-Man Woman Haters Club, promise not to fall for this Valentine's business, because girls are the bunk."

I've met a few "Romeos", that's for sure, but I think way deep down, most guys have a little "He Man Woman Hater's Club" creed tattooed in their soul somewhere that they just can't "shake". LOL

Is it like the chicken pox that lays dormant and then appears as shingles later?

"-Alfalfa, will you swing me before we have lunch?

-Sure, Darla.

-Say, Romeo. What about your promise to the He-Man-Woman-Haters-Club?

-I'm sorry, Spanky. I've got to live my own life." Our Gang

I've finally found the counterpart of Our Gang's "He Man Woman Haters Club". Alive and well in Gazetteland.

"You smell that? Do you smell that? Napalm, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that."

Oohh.. I wonder what is was that got my post removed. It certainly wasn't filthy, it just made the point that those that rule the world can't rule their members to be moral.

gee thanks, gazettefan. very kind.

I doubt what you say in the first sentence of your last post very much, ms...sassy.

and now that I have made a comment about a negative view that I have regarding men, I am the one who looks nutty, appears to have been "tossed aside", appears to be bitter or is a jealous freak.

There is something wrong with a society that accepts multiple partners and, as a whole, salutes (or at least doesn't condemn) those unwilling to live by the society's rule. There is a reason the law states that multiple marriages is forbidden. Yet multiple partners is widely accepted within the same society...I've apparently said too much. I have gotten sucked in to a discussion that I cannot win, based solely on my gender.

"This idiom is usually used to refer to men who don't want to get married, when they can get all the benefits of marriage without getting married."

and thanks, but I didn't need assistance. I know what it means.

and I say it is because men (or the men I have met) know that it's IMPOSSIBLE to control their "weenies" or they just plain and simply don't WANT to. Either way, I don't care much for the polygamy reasoning nor the society I live in, which accepts having many women and the "reasoning" that women just need to accept it.

Perhaps the assumption by Seabee (“One big point I think you have missed is the #1 reason men would historically enter into a marriage. Sex.”) is wrong to begin with. It seems that in many polygamist societies sex is NOT the driving force. From one of the cited sources: “From an American Indian standpoint, the institution of polygamy was seen to benefit both husbands and wives. For men, a larger household meant that they would have more children and more relatives, with a concomitant increase in wealth and status in the community. For women, polygamy usually meant that they could maintain co-residence with their sisters as co-wives, could get daily help with child care and other household chores, and have an increased probability of keeping their mother in the household.”

While personally I believe in one-man, one-woman marriage, and I certainly will preach the “cow-milk” idiom when my daughter is of age, as usual we must not believe that what we know and believe is what other societies know and believe.

ms_sassy_wi at 10:38
.
First, I will assist you with your basis of idiom reference:
.
“Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free”
This idiom is usually used to refer to men who don't want to get married, when they can get all the benefits of marriage without getting married.
o http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/id...
.
Sorry, but studies indicate that men marring is more about leaving a legacy:
….the journal Biology Letters, provides evidence that the reason for these unions is that men prefer young women due to their high fertility while women prefer older men due to their wealth and high social status, which make them good providers for the offspring.
o http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jh...
o http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3088165/

I disagree wholeheartedly, I_C_Y.

As seabee suggested, "#1 reason men would historically enter into a marriage. Sex."

and the buying the cow reference was re-enforcing the only reason men could enter into marriage. sex.

so...if men could control their own weenies, they would attempt to be responsible for themselves and cultivate the traits that are necessary in society, and would we wouldn't be having this conversation now...

attorneyatlarge 9:39 p.m.
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Interesting hypothesis!
.
Yet if you re-read your first paragraph, you would see that the men you speak of are in fact in control of their member, and are making a choice!
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A reference of ms_sassy_wi at 12:01, rather concise description explains it …"why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free"
.
It appears as though economics is involved!

^5 attorneyatlarge!!!! what a GREAT post!

wwr1961 1 p.m.
.
You make the presumption that there is a correlation between Intelligence Quotient, and a positive problem resolution!
o http://law.jrank.org/pages/1366/Intellig...
o http://www.odu.edu/ao/instadv/quest/geni...
.
Many of the former residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would argue that Mr. Einstein, and Mr. Oppenheimer’s device proved to be not so positive for them!
o http://inventors.about.com/od/astartinve...
o http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/...

I_C_Y appears to be very intelligent. Lets put him on teen pregnency. I think he may get us to zero. Imagine that. No thesarus or dictionary needed!! Allllrrrriiighty then.

I don't have that opinion, I_C_Y...this article is about THIS polygamous sect. My comments are about what happened in Texas. I have not spent my free time researching case law in this area. Sorry if I disappoint you, but to be quite honest, since it's not happening in my backyard, I don't care what happens to those children or those women in Texas. there. I said it. happy now?

and since sex is so available, men with "marriage quality" characteristics are basically extinct.

This forces women to choose between being alone or being with someone who does not meet her expectations. And with each new partner, the expectation of quality traits starts to disappear.

My parents generation would say things such as "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free"...which, when being brutally honest, suggests that women are responsible for men no longer possessing or cultivating traits that are necessary in society.

ms_sassy_wi 4:40 p.m.
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According to US Census data, and limited other resources, both Polygyny and Homosexuality are deviant societal norms.
.
Plural Marriages
o http://www.jstor.org/pss/3772798
o http://books.google.com/books?id=z_dv0j9...
o http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst...
o http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst...

Homosexuality
o http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html
o http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm...
.
.
And yet, through the actions of the courts, laws that had been legislated against deviant population groups, were struck down. Specific to this case would be Lawrence v. Texas ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02... ) in which ....” Casey, supra, at 851–which confirmed that the Due Process Clause protects personal decisions relating to marriage, procreation, contraception, family relationships, child rearing,” and “There has been no showing that in this country the governmental interest in circumscribing personal choice is somehow more legitimate or urgent.”
.
.
So, what validates your position of having the State target one specific deviant group?

Attorneyatlarge, One big point I think you have missed is the #1 reason men would historically enter into a marriage. Sex. For women it was financial security. TOday you have women in the workplace capable of providing for themselves and in the last 40-50 years sex and promiscuity have become so cheap and ingrained into our culture that a man, or woman for that matter, need not marry to indulge the sex drive. Couple that with the advent of "the Great Society", which subsidizes fatherhood, and motherhood in some cases, and its easy to see why marriage and family no longer are respected as they once were. Another point about the abandoned mothers, while I do not support anybody abandoning anybody, I think there are extremely high expectations that people have about their significant others, reinforced by our consumer culture, that are impossible to meet and I think this plays a huge part too.

I-C-Y- my conjecture is that the family unit is breaking down to :
1) The high rate of men not marrying or providing for children that they create. Not many women WANT to be a single mother.
2) The high rate of divorces due to superficial reasons.
3) The stress of paying for daycare, transportation, and all the bills takes away quality parenting time from the children, resulting in no transfer of values.
If you have looked at the Disney channel lately, you will see that most of the 'families' viewed there on popular 12-16 age sitcoms are single parents. The social acceptability of sigle parents needs to be addressed- simply put, we need more help so mothers that have been abandoned can parent thier kids.

I concur that the damage done within the confines of the family unit has had hugely negative impacts on our society. I just don't believe that having multiple wives, children with relatives or having a man marry a girl (not woman, by any stretch of the imagination) 2 or 3 times younger than he is could be considered healthy no matter what has happened with the rest of society. The FLDS operates under very scary practices and interpretations of the Bible, but that is just my opinion.

I still think an investigation of their practices is warranted.

I also firmly believe that the ACLU, and other organizations like it, have done more destruction to the core family values than anything else in this country. Those organizations will probably be the ones who step in to say that whatever they (the FLDS) decide to do in their religious cult is acceptable. go figure.

ms_sassy_wi 2:54 p.m.
.
As an opinion, I would have to disagree with the main point: Children are a reflection of the FAMILY.
.
My conjecture is that the “FAMILY” unit is what has suffered over the last 40 years.
EX: 1. The high rate of single mothers
EX: 2. The high rate of divorce
EX: 3. people living vicariously through their children’s sports lives.
EX: 4. Parents who won’t hold their children responsible for anything they do in stores, at school, wherever.
.
Because of the breakdown of the family unit, the ripple effect is being felt in the rest of society.
.
As for the day of reckoning. It appears 2036 is a fairly safe bet (well, better than the Lottery!)
http://www.space.com/news/050519_asteroi...

I_C_Y: I concur that sexual activity among teens is out of control. I am not (or at least was not intending to imply) saying that state/county run foster care programs are any better at helping kids learn how to live. I am VERY frustrated that parents today seem to have lost the instruction manual or the list of job duties when they decided that getting pregnant was a good idea. I'm frustrated that social service agencies aren't allowed to protect the kids and teacher and administration's hands are tied. Reports of abuse tend to get thrown to the side like it was in the 50's (what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas?)

There are SO many kids who have a destructive home life that their life is pretty much ruined before they even have a chance. That goes for kids who grow up in cults, have been physically or sexually abused (or neglected), their parents are drug abusers, alcoholics, workaholics, or in sub-standard foster care.

The focus has been taken away from doing what is best for the children. We are truly going to pay the consequence for that someday, and that day is not very far away.

ms_sassy_wi 8:34 p.m.
.
I think you need to look a little deeper, when advocating that the State/Foster care system is better:
…National data on child abuse fatalities show that a child is nearly twice as likely to die of abuse in foster care as in the general population..
http://www.nccpr.org/newissues/1.html
.
.
As for your second paragraph:
Teen Sexual Activity
• In 2005, 47% of high school students (grades 9-12) reported ever having had sexual intercourse, down from 54% in 1991.
• Fourteen percent of high school students reported four or more sexual partners in 2005, the same percentage as 2003 and 2001
• pregnancy rate has decreased to 75 pregnancies per 1,000 females aged 15-19 in 2000. (that’s 7.5 percent)
http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/r...
http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/d...
.
.
Based on the most current information from the Texas FLDS case:
Attorneys for Child Protective Services say 15 of the 31 mothers are adults. One is actually 27. …Their contention that abuse was widespread led to the removal of more than 460 children.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,3572...
.
.
So, 16 mothers are under age, based on 460 children, that’s 3.47 percent!
.
Based on your analogy society would be much better off removing girls from High school!

momof5, I love Big Love! Every time I here polygamist news I think of that show.

right...but most importantly, they (being the State of Texas' Department of Human/Social Services) HAVE the affected children in protective care. What is wrong with the courts for not seeing that what these children continue to be subjected to is emotionally damaging. I realize that the children will more than likely be returned to live in their "little culture" but isn't it the courts duty to protect them?

other members of society who don't think they are doing anything "wrong" but go against what is accepted in the United States (namely pedophiles) are prosecuted and the children are placed in homes where they can receive the care (and treatment) to repair the abuse that they have been subjected to by his/her PERPETRATOR. Why is this viewed differently? Because it is a religion and not an ice cream vendor?

ICY- I'm done going back and forth on little technicalities you seem to want to dwell on.
I've stated all I need to state on this and I'm going to let others make their own determination as to our respective opinions.
*
www.rickross.com ...................."polygamist groups"

ms_sassy_wi 7:52 p.m.
.
To try and summarize what I “think” your getting at. Yes, there has been a decline of both morals, and “real men”, since the late Sixites, but that is a completely separate thread!

truth1 6:46 p.m./6:48 p.m/7 p.m./ 7:05 p.m.
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Do you actually read what you write?
.
You have not supplied a single reference or link to anything substantiating any of your comments specific to this discussion.
.
You continue to disperse invectives and conjecture. Although circular in nature, you continue the same theme!
.
The point being, your “feelings” and “emotions” bring nothing tangential to this discussion.
.
To paraphrase Einstein, “It’s all relative!”, meaning common factual documents provide a base reference that all participants can review and validate, or excoriate! Without factual references, it is no longer a discussion arena, but instead group therapy for emoting!

I_C_Y, I try. It's hard to expect others to be forthright or honest if I'm unable/unwilling to be...

I just think it's a shame that they are not protecting these children from the men who "claim" to be their faithful leaders...that's no different than the priests in the catholic church abuse investigations or the "trustworthy" adult preying on children who have no direction in their lives.

Not only rape, but "throwing out" other children to fend for themselves.
*

This goes to show that Texas at least cares about children being raped while Arizona and Utah couldn't care less.
*
www.rickross.com ......."polygamist groups"
*

ms_sassy_wi 5:30 p.m
.
Thank you for being forthright and honest. It is an honorable trait!

Sorry, ICY, I don't need to cite anything specific to the "Texas case", this is the same ilk that came from Arizona/Utah.

This "group" is no better than those that our soldiers are going to Iraq to fight as far as human rights are concerned.
*
They're going over there to fight and die only for us to allow this stuff to go on on our own soil?
*
I don't think so.
*

I don't have anything necessarily specific to the Texas case, sorry.

Polygyny in the FLDS from a child's perspective:

"Kathy" published her story in Today's Christian Woman magazine:

"I was one of 13 children raised by our father and three mothers in a polygamist community in Utah. We were fundamentalist Mormons who practiced the original teachings of Mormonism from its founder Joseph Smith. This teaching includes following the Principle, which states a man must practice polygamy -- marrying at least three wives -- to enter the Celestial Kingdom." 10

"Even though I knew which woman was my biological mother, we were encouraged to treat all the wives the same. Outwardly, our family seemed content, but beneath the surface lay jealousy and pain. We never acknowledged these feelings because we were supposed to sacrifice our emotions. Even laughter was discouraged."

"We [children] were constantly told to 'keep sweet' and that 'perfect obedience produces perfect faith.' Behind these sugary slogans lay the impossible duty of living in complete obedience to the Prophet.

In Fundamental [Church of Jesus Christ of] Latter Day Saints (FLDS), the Prophet is the earthly leader and mediator between God and man. Women are on this earth to serve their husband and obey the Prophet. If a woman does this faithfully, her husband may invite her to join him in the Celestial Kingdom. A woman's eternal fate depends on keeping this Principle. ...

The Prophet is in charge of the Placement of young girls in marriage. The quality of her Placement depends on her level of sweetness. Knowing this, I tried very hard to live in obedience. At age 14, I began sewing my wedding dress in anticipation of my Placement. I hoped I'd like my future husband, but I feared my fate would be like those who never knew love.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/fldsin...

http://community.livejournal.com/liberta...

"One point that comes up in both news stories about the FLDS and discussion on my blog is that relatively young women—how young is not yet clear—were having sex with considerably older men. Many people see as obviously a very bad thing. One commenter took it for granted that having sex at twelve or thirteen was something which "99% of the world" would find abhorrent.

It has been stated that at the time a girl "becomes a woman" or reaches puberty, she is scheduled to marry.

On May 7, 2006, the FBI named Warren Jeffs to their Ten Most Wanted Fugitives list on charges of sexual misconduct with minors.

On August 28, 2006, Warren Jeffs was captured on Interstate 15 just north of Las Vegas, Nevada, after a routine traffic stop. He was captured with his brother, Isaac Steve Jeffs, and one of his wives, Naomi Jeffs, both 32. Isaac and Naomi were both released. Jeffs was tried in St. George, Utah and was found guilty by a jury of two counts of being an accomplice to rape.

Child marriage is illegal in the United States. Several religious groups allegedly practice child marriage. The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, has allegedly practiced child marriage through 'spiritual (religious only) marriages' as soon as they are ready to bear children as part of its polygamy and laws have raised the age of legal marriage in response to criticims of the practice. Church leader Warren Jeffs was convicted of being an accomplice to rape of a minor due arranging such a marriage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marri...

I realize Wikipedia is not a very reliable resource, but that is what I came up with so far. I will look for a more reliable source.

ms_sassy_wi at 3:53 p.m
.
Can you direct us to a link or document that substantiates your comment about 12 year olds specific to the Texas FLDS case?

so sexual relations with a 12 year old is not only morally ok, legally ok and does not pose a threat or danger to said child in the State of Texas? that's great news.

OK, the search warrant was invalid, as there was ZERO evidence of child abuse or neglect. Does that make polygamy right/wrong? No, it makes it clear that the Court has looked not only at the evidence found as of today, and before the raid, but at the welfare of the children to return to their homes. Morality? Oh man.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticN...

Yes, what happens here in Janesville, pertaining to an actual case of children being molested, does hold bearing to this story. You folks are so quick to call people of a different religion 1/2 the country away rapists, and incestuous pedophiles that you have ignored the actual pedophile right here in your backyard. BTW- polygamy is a part of several different cultures around the world, not just FLDS. Does that make it right? Heck no, not to me anyway. However, it's not right to inflict your values and/or judgements on others from your religious point of view, from a religion that is a severe global minority;Christianity.

Again; ZERO evidence of child abuse before, during, or after the raid and investigation. This is a good example of why we divide "Church and State".

but...remember, no one is immediate danger. I'm angry. and disappointed in the "system" once again. and to think that people are discouraged in "the next generation"...gee, I wonder why people are feeling that way. *sarcasm*

I just spotted the article. It was a red line on the Drudge, so I thought I would pass it on. As for myself, I doubt that I would agree with the Texas court on this matter, but I also doubt that the court would care what I think. No doubt there will be many rulings on this matter, but the bottom line to me is that it is morally wrong for these people to allow and diabolical of their leaders to promote multiple marriages sexual slavery. Let's not forget the ostracization of young men who trusted their leaders and were held captive from society only to be cast out as threats to the perverted lust of older men for underage women.

Anyone know when the new season of HBO's "Big Love" starts?

I read that article. The children were not in immediate danger, whatever that means. What exactly DOES immediate danger mean? And what is dangerous and harmful to children? This is absolutely ridiculous.

I crack myself up sometimes. party on wayne, party on garth.

I crack myself up sometimes.

what?

Texas appeals court says no.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=...
Asphincter says "What?".

You appear to be evading the question, so I will state it directly:
.
Who has been arrested for either pedophilia, or rape in the April 3rd Texas FLDS case?
.
Since you were the one that made the allegation, I anticipate that you will be able to produce some link, or document that substantiates your comment!

Try www.rickross.com and click on "polygamist groups".
*
I've emailed back and forth with Mr. Ross and I don't always agree with him, but there is a lot of good info on his site.
*

ICY- Every form of media is full of FACTS that do not need repeating by me.
*
All you have to do is read and research.
*
Its not too difficult, there is plenty of material.
*

truth1,

First comment conjecture.

Second comment emoting.

Wow, you’re batting 100 percent!

Now, do you have any actual FACTS to substantiate your comments? Or will you continue to take up Internet bit space with your blathering?

I'm sure Martin Niemoller would be all in favor of going after these atrocious criminals too.

They came for the child rapists and I wasn't a child rapist, so I rejoiced.

There sure is a lot of hyper emoting and conjecture, but very little FACTS presented in this discussion.

1. Question: How did this start?

Answer: A 33 year old nut-job hoaxer named Rozita Swinton called NewBridge Family Shelter several times.

…The arrest affidavit for Swinton shows the phone number used to report allegations of abuse in Texas matches a number used by Swinton to allegedly make other false sexual abuse claims.

Court records indicate investigators suspect Swinton of placing abuse calls to eleven different agencies since October 2007

The NewBridge Family Shelter took three phone calls from a woman claiming she was being abused at the FLDS compound.
http://www.9news.com/news/local/article....

2. Question: How was the Warrant issued?

Answer: The Warrant to RAID the compound was issued against Dale E. Barlow, …thought to be the husband of a teenage girl whose report of abuse triggered a raid on a polygamous sect's Texas compound.

Update: The Warrant against Dale E. Barlow has been dropped
Monday May 5, 2008
Arrest warrant against FLDS member dropped
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/05/flds...

3. Question: How many people have been arrested ?

Answer: 3
- The nut-job 33 year old phone hoaxer Rozita Swinton, from Colorado Springs
http://www.9news.com/news/local/article....
- Levi Barlow Jeffs, 19, for interfering with the duties of a public servant, a class B misdemeanor
- Leroy Johnson Steed, 41, was arrested for tampering with physical evidence.
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21097/fl...

Friday Apr 18, 2008

Police Arrest 416 Children Using Tanks & Machine Guns in USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIzwOgQ1...

Which brings me to:

“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”

- Martin Niemoeller

While my previous post will appear off-topic, it is justified given that the opening paragraph of the story above perpetuates a myth.

The post is from an op ed piece in the Gazette last year.

The sound bite: “We had to destroy the village to save the village.” is a painful misrepresentation of what happened at Ben Tre (population 50,000) in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive. That pain is exacerbated by the tragic fact that the bite became popular shorthand for how the U.S. military performed throughout the entirety of the Vietnam War.

Important to the fact that the bite painfully misrepresents what happened in Ben Tre, and in Vietnam as in general, is that the words were never spoken by the man who ultimately proved to be reporter Peter Arnett’s “source”. Arnett compounded the distortion by claiming his source was Air Force Maj. Chester L. Brown. In fact, Arnett’s "source" was the senior officer at Ben Tre, Army Maj. Phil Canella.

Arnett also made the false claim that he was protecting his "source" from what proved to be a nonexistent military investigation into who uttered the “village” bite. The fact is, no investigators nor anyone else asked Canella about the bite until the 1990s when he said that he had told Arnett: in defending the town it was a shame that some of it was destroyed.

Canella also stated that the great majority of the destruction of Ben Tre was done by a large Viet Cong force as it attempted to destroy a much smaller band of Americans [who fought bravely for fifty hours].

Eventually, Navy gunboats and the 9th Infantry Division helped save the day for the Americans and the VC were defeated in Ben Tre as they were defeated throughout the Tet Offensive.

Defeated may be an understatement for what happened to the VC during Tet (and this goes to the greater issue that the “village” bite misrepresents our effort in Vietnam): The VC, who mercilessly brutalized fellow Vietnamese at Ben Tre as well as throughout South Vietnam during Tet, were in fact almost totally destroyed by Allied Forces at that time.

Furthermore, who did what to the Vietnamese people for the “benefit” of the Vietnamese people during the Vietnam War was made even more clear in 1975. In that year, the raggedy remnants of the Viet Cong, who were supposed to be the political representation of the south Vietnamese people, were ostracized, imprisoned, and murdered by their communist brethren from North Vietnam. The brutality of this communist regime toward any form of political opposition by other Vietnamese continues to this day.

While my next post will appear off-topic, it is justified given that the opening paragraph of the story above perpetuates a myth.

The post is from an op ed piece in the Gazette last year.

I looked this up and is very interesting.

Plural marriage and the law of placing

The FLDS Church teaches the doctrine of plural marriage, which states that a man having multiple wives is ordained by God and is a requirement for a man to receive the highest form of salvation. It is generally believed in the church that a man should have a minimum of three wives to fulfill this requirement. Connected with this doctrine is the concept that wives are required to be subordinate to their husbands.

The church currently practices the law of placing, whereby a young woman of marriageable age is assigned a husband by revelation from God to the leader of the church, who is regarded as a prophet. The prophet elects to take and give wives to and from men according to their worthiness.
Child marriage usually refers to two separate social phenomena which are practiced in some societies. The first and more widespread practice is that of marrying a young child (generally defined as below the age of fifteen) to an adult. In practice, it is almost always a young girl married to a man.

The second practice is a form of arranged marriage in which the parents of two children from different families arrange a future marriage. In this practice, the individuals who become betrothed often do not meet one another until the wedding ceremony, which occurs when they are both of a marriageable age. Which age this is differs by local custom. In most practicing cultures, this age is at or after the onset of puberty. This is the case in the FLDS church.
Not only are young girls at risk but so are young boys.
Lost Boys
It has been reported that the FLDS Church has recently excommunicated over 400 teenage boys, some as young as 13, for offenses such as dating and listening to rock music. Former members claim that the real reason for these excommunications is that there are not enough women for each male to receive three or more wives. Six such teenage boys have filed a conspiracy lawsuit against Jeffs and Sam Barlow, a former Mohave County deputy sheriff and close associate of Jeffs, for a "systematic excommunication" of young men to reduce competition for wives.
Critics claim that some members of the church are violating laws (because polygamy is illegal in the United States) when they participate in polygamy. Critics claim that incest and sexual abuse of children are prevalent among church members.
This is not the only thing that has other worried, there are health issues as well among the FDLS members.
Birth defects.
The Colorado City/Hildale area has the world's highest incidence of fumarase deficiency, an extremely rare genetic condition which causes severe mental retardation. Geneticists attribute this to the prevalence of cousin marriage between descendants of two of the town's founders, Joseph Smith Jessup and John Yeates Barlow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental...

and whether or not charges are pending or an investigation occurred has nothing to do with child abuse. Abusing a child sexually, physically, emotionally or by neglect is wrong. Having enough evidence, etc. to prove it happened (what does a kid know anyway? everyone knows kids lie, etc) is another issue altogether. remember David O'Leary is running for DA again...you might want to investigate alternative options if you are concerned about local molestation cases being swept under the carpet.

Toyota, It wasn't a hoax and the accusations weren't unwarranted. There was in fact sexual misconduct occurring. The tip was spot on.
Nothing about this situation makes me feel superior. It fact it saddens me deeply to know that parents would abuse their children in this manner.
What happened here is irrelevant to what is happening in Texas. If child abuse was swept under the rug here that is flat out wrong but it doesn't make any difference to what is happening in Texas. It's disgusting on it's own merits.
I've never made any claims of christianity. I'm not a religious person though I wouldn't argue that the religious training I received as a child has influenced my value system.

thekid..., I'm not seeing you with dreadlocks.

(Don't worry, I'm not going to get on that other thing.)

i cant believe there is a story as to whether rescuing minors from forced sex with old men was the right thing to do....let alone a debate about it. if this is a 'religion' im a rastafarian and my marijuana intake is religious

JCK; Yes, the tip WAS a prank, a hoax, and the person who called it in has been in jail for making other false accusations. Yeah, in JAIL for making unwarranted accusations of sexual misconduct.

I DO NOT agree with polygamy at all, but I respect the freedom of others' religious choices to do so. There's WAY too many people here in this Blog/Forum who have made the leap to judge polygamists as cultists, pedophiles,rapists, and incestuous predators. Where has the evidence come to light that fathers in this particular sect of Texas FLDS were having sex with their own sons or daughters? Someone post a link to the records in that Texas County please.

Judging others from so far a distance must make you feel superior and forget about your life, or lack of a life. We had an actual case of multiple children being molested right here in Janesville swept under the rug, and you folks want to burn people at the stake from 1800 miles away, w/o evidence? AND claim yourselves Christians? Wow! I do not recall the exact Biblical quote but; Who are you to judge?

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Looking out for the victim is what has made America America.

There is no legitimate argument against what Texas did.....NONE.
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All you have to do is read/hear some of the testimonies from the victims that have gotten out to know this..period
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What may happen elsewhere is completely irrelevant.
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I wonder how many know that in the vietnam community it is common practice for the father of a bride to "de-flower" her before her new husband will...how gross is that?

I am also willing to bet that these same practices happen in many other tribal countries as well. If it becomes impossible for them to practice their beliefs here, who's to say they don't move on to another country where it is acceptable? There are many things happening in this world that I think would truely disgust us further than this. I think there is a show about these things...it is called TABOO.

What we are all feeling is a consceince. These sect's don't have the same ones as us. And never will. I agree with people needing protection if they can't protect themselves, but, how do we determine how these people feel? It is another example of our way is the only way....so United States!! I am proud of my country, but not all man made laws apply to everyone, no matter how much we try to force them on them. Indeed this in my eyes is wrong, sick and twisted but who am I to tell someone else how to conduct their community? And how am I to know that my truths are universal truths?

"She compares their community to a crack house.

“If you go into a drug den in a burnt-out rowhouse and all the adults are drug addicts, how can you leave the children there?”

Hamilton calls this sect a “conspiracy of adults to commit systematic child sex abuse.”"

Law Enforcement rescued the 8 year old from the crack smoking, porn watching, abusive parents in Milton.

Law Enforcement rescued the 11 year old girl from Milwaukee who was "encouraged" to perform sexual acts with up to 20 males.

This is no different. Law Enforcement has an obligation to protect the people who cannot protect themselves.

to "support_local_racing"
I definitely was not condoning what is going on. I just know, as a mom, your children mean everything to you, and it would be difficult to have them taken away. The babies and children don't realize their mommies are babies and are confused too. I would never want me 12 year old daughter to be married to a man 4 times her age. I am not a pervert either. I just feel sorry for the moms and their children. I do think that the authorities are doing the right thing by getting involved by all means. I am just compassionate for the innocent.

Don't fear people. Our govt. will come to the rescue! Why wouldn't they? The U.S. govt. knows what's best for everyone! Just ask them. Infact, they've got this great program where it's profitable for mothers to be single and have babies and raise their children in a broken home with no sense of family! Fired up! Oh, I almost forgot, when the mother wants a raise, all she has to do is have another baby or two! What a great program this has turned out to be... we're killing two birds with one stone with this one~ 1) Taking the father right out of the eqaution and 2) setting the table for more disconnected kids to come up through the ranks and take positions of power in our country. Isn't that exciting knowing our future is in such good hands????

just because it is "accepted", does not mean it is right. My parents used to tell me "just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD".

These girls and young women are being exploited, but don't know it, as billnewbie said. Children are being exploited and abused in general society, too. I realize this is a religious sect, but so was Camp Davidian (David Karesch) and for that matter, the Helter Skelter "Family" of Charles Manson.

What goes on "behind closed doors" in these sects, cults-whatever you choose to call them-is illegal. Yes, "man" wrote the law, but this is where this group chooses to live. They must abide by the laws of the land and "teach a child in the way s/he should go...when s/he is older s/he will not depart from it". What they are doing in the FLDS is WRONG and the children need to be de-programmed by professionals and placed with loving caretakers.

Happycamper, I was addressing the Catholic church reference that toyota made specifically not making a comment about which religion has the most perverts. I know that the Christan Science Monitor says otherwise. I was paying attention, are you?

If a person even has to stop and think about the answer to the headline of this topic, they should have their head examined! Of course something should be done! I'm sick and tired of people having to second guess themselves when it comes to doing the right or wrong thing depending on if it's "politically correct" or acceptable in today's world! There is only one right or wrong! NO IN BETWEEN!!! These modern day intellects who only believe that what works for them is the only truth are killing this country. There's no integrity and no sense of honor anymore in our culture. Everyone's about themselves anymore! Here's a newsflash for you new age intellects: If you're bullying up on my friends or someone who isn't equipped to defend themselves, I'm not turning the other cheek. I've got their back! And should you one day decide to confront reality and get with the program, I'll have your back one day as well when you just might need it! Think about that!

Yeah, its a "way of life", riiight.
For the pedophile/rapist men, maybe.
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A lot of these girls DO know that its wrong and want OUT.
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And just because WE may have a messed up culture in the 21st century doesn't mean we should let them get away with THIS.

In "general" their way of life doesn't effect the rest of us, I bet the majority of us didn't know this stuff existed until the media tuned us in. Iraq is another story, they do effect us, but how we are handling them, like "friends" is all wrong....we need to treat them as the snakes they are....THEY ARE THE ENEMY.

Polygamy has been considered immoral for a long time. It has always been one sided, decidedly for the benefit of men, and as such, it has been made illegal by our society as it is short on benefits and long on inequities. But, society is changing. The values held dear for so long are transforming. Some say for the better and some say for the worst. Now, many believe that sexual exploitation is tolerable under certain circumstances, provided it is practiced among consenting participants and no one is “hurt”. 25 year old men impregnating 14 year old girlfriends are becoming more commonplace, and even though such behavior is illegal, it is almost never prosecuted. In fact, most such activity is never reported as the victim does not recognize the exploitation to which she has been subjected. Many such “men” have multiple children with many different young ladies while taking responsibility for none.

The women of that sect have been taught from birth that their place is to be married, submit to their husbands and have children. In general society, many girls are taught to seek and submit to multiple sexual partners, that personal and sexual gratification are all that matter, and people that think otherwise are prudish fools. I don’t accept for the polygamist philosophy, but it’s better than the drivel that the popular culture is dishing out.

"can't imagine how difficult it would be to have my children taken from me"
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That's interesting "noname", because I can't imagine what it would be like to have my 12 year old married to a 50 year old pervert and having children of her own.

You know us "common folk" might find the actions of these sect's dispicable, but the truth is, whether we like it or not, they will continue to practice their religion. It is the same as us trying to civilianize the Iraqian community, it WILL NEVER HAPPEN. They know nothing other than what they live. It may be illegal in man's laws, but from what I understand, these people don't live by man's laws and never will. Why crowd an already overcrowded prision system with people who are in aggreement with the lifestyle, and aren't running through the public randomly raping people?? I think it is sick, yes, that is why that is not my way of life....

The only comment I would like to make is, as a mom, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to have my children taken from me, and not be allowed to see them. It just makes me sick to think what they must be going through. In their eyes, they feel they have done nothing wrong, and the children must be so confused.

The FLDS community in Texas is a cult and people are held there against their will because their free will has been systematically repressed and destroyed. Most other religions practice repression, but their practice of isolation varies depending upon how fantastic they become.

JCK, while the catholic church has it's problems most sex scandals involve other religions. Pay attention!

The sect was funded by illegal activity. The activity was stopped and the sect was, soon, to run out of money. The actions of the goverment will, as usual, be debated for a long time. I have no problem with how it has been handled. If they were left to continue they would find another scheme to bilk people out of their money.

Toyota,

The anonymous tip was not a "hoax." It may not have come from the source that was originally reported however the police investigated and discovered that there was, in fact, child abuse occuring so it was not a "hoax."
I'm not sure what you are reading that you apparently are unaware of the arrest of numerous Catholic clergy across the country. I can't give you specific numbers but the arrest of a Catholic priest for child abuse hasn't exactly been a national secret these past several years.
There is a huge difference between the Texas incident and the two (Catholic priests and ice cream stand) incidents you reference and that is that in this instance the children are actually in the physical custody of the abusers. The abusers aren't their priest nor their employer but rather it's their parent. You can understand that can't you?

Actually, I think that most of the children who have been raised to accept this perverted religion probably do so without question and think that everything is perfectly natural. They probably fear being rescued and have been taught that any outsider is basically an incarnation of the devil. People are capable of believing anything.

Good post attorneyatlarge.
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All I have to say about the rest is that, if you were a child who was raised to be the victim of forcible rape, wouldn't you want to be rescued by any means?

Regardless of whether or not the tip the police received was a hoax there was child abuse on a grand scale. I agree with taking the children away from there parents. How will they ever find out what really goes on from these kids if they are with there parents who are coaxing them what to say. You've seen the mothers in tv interviews. Everything they say is scripted. If a child anywhere else were removed from her/his parent that has been abusing them there would be no outcry whatsoever. Leave religion out of it. This is about nothing more than a bunch of perverts abusing young girls.

Yes, it is repugnant that a family and religion was built around brainwashing women into thinking they are nothing without men, and that producing children and sharing a man with other women is acceptable.
However, show me how that is different from today's cool thug culture. FLDS dress their children modestly, while our society puts our five year olds in thongs and shirts that say "juicy." I can name off a couple of young teens at the charter school that have children with the same father. I'd rather have my 8 year old daughter wear a dress than the belly showing tank tops of today.
So while I think that it is disgusting the young teens of FLDS were nothing more than baby making machines, it's not like our modern culture today tells OUR modern young ladies that they are worth anything either.Boobs and parts, that's all women think they are worth today.
Our society makes TONS of money of the marketing of young women as objects of sexual desire,,,,, except young men are taught that girls are to be used and tossed, not married and treasured.
Should the FLDS kids have been taken away? I dont know.
I'm sickened and sad by how children are raised today almost EVERYWHERE I look.

Bringintoyota-"most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers."-The Chritian Science Monitor. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news...
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In all churches, religions or any sector of people there will be a percentage that are pedophiles. Was it handled badly, yes. To suggest the Catholic Church was organizing and promoting it is a ridiculous statement.

Bringintyota- the age of consent in Texas is 18, and as for the phone call being a hoax, the police were acting in good faith, so even if the search warrant falls through, whatever they find there is still able to be brought to court.

I am all for people having the freedom to chose their partners, however many there may be, but when a child is endangered, as was the case here, something needs to be done. Don't prosecute them for being polygamist, but rather for the child abusers they are.

Wow! A pedophile ring? A couple of things to consider from Ellen Goodman's OP/ED piece;
a. What is the age of consentual sex in Texas? (No, I don't endorse what was happening there, but it may actually be legal.) I think the age for consentual sex in southern states is much lower, around 13 or 14 yers old.

b. The "anonymous tip" WAS a hoax. It was not called in from a 16 year old claiming rape or incest. It was called in from a woman in Colorado Springs, CO, who had just been released from probation for having made the same claims about another group; the claim was a hoax as reported on CNN.

c. Institutionalized and organized pedophilia has been around for several decades now in the Catholic Churches of the U.S.. It is so organized that the Catholic Church offenders (Priests) are actually moved around the country to make it harder to find them, the offenders.

How many arrests have been made concerning those priests? How many children taken into protective custody, protecting them from the Priests? There is little concern for the actual children, only politicians getting ready for elections. Whatever happened to the case right here in Janesville with the children who were claiming molestation by their boss @ the ice cream stand on the west side? Not much public outcry on that one.

The h*ll with individual differences and human rights. We all know what a fine authority the great and moral state of Texas is - more executions than virtually all others put together; Enron, the biggest public theft in history; Tommy-boy Delay's illegally manipulated congressional districts; the massive, war-mongering, historically record-profiting oil lucre; the Bushes and their Texas-size lies and vicious public and secret wars and multi-continent invasions; Viet-Nam Lyndon Johnson; and, worst of all, those repulsive referee-intimidating Dallas Cowboys - Let the horror continue, Don't mess with Texas! I say Execute those home-spun misfit perverts! On the state capitol steps in right there in Austin!! Who is Texas to take a back door to the glorious Salem witchcraft trials or the Spanish Inquisition?