The government bailed out Chrysler at one point, and that was repaid early and with all the interest. Why not follow the same guidelines for that loan. Granted, the economic situation was not as bad then as it is now. But had the economy not gone south I think chrysler could have made a sustainable come back.

billnewbie: I totally agree with your sentiments
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momof5: I know you are not defending Wagoner, and my criticism is somewhat unjustified; as ANYONE in his position would be doing no better. This is a sinking ship which can not be saved with out major downsizing and restructuring. It still raises your eyebrows, however; when you see these CEO's have the company collapse and they are literally making millions. My $14.8 million figure was off by about $0.4 million. He made $14,415,900 ( http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/of... ) this year, much of which was from stock options. That's what is so laughable when you hear politicians pontificate about cutting down on CEO pay. They just get around via stock options, and accounting games.
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almeg: Call it what you wish with the euphemisms, but it's a EXTREMELY risky loan/bailout at the tax payers expense. MOST companies when struggling raise capital via public stock offerings and public bond offerings. They are in so much trouble that no one in the private sector would dare take on the risk of investing in their stock, or bonds , because they know when they default, your investment is totally wiped out. If no one in their right mind in the public sector will take the risk of loaning them $$$, why on earth should the government (taxpayer)? All it will be doing is passing off national debt to future generations when the loan/bailout is defaulted upon.

billnewbie~ You are exactly right. We are truly in a time of transition into the new economy. The global economy everyone thought we were already in is now officially here. The entire world is digitally linked up via the internet. It's called progress. Alot of opportunity out there for those who are willing to accept the change needed to move forward and alot of pain for those who turn their backs on the new rules. It's inevitable....it's CHANGE.

Keep in mind that GM was on the verge of bankruptcy back in 1992 also. They were huddled around the fax machine waiting for the bond raiting to come in. If it had even fell 1 point, they were going to file Chapt.11. What saved them was the economic boom of the 90's. The UAW did them no favors by forcing GM to dish out the money (signing bonuses, back pay for outsourcing construction projects etc.)and not taking progressive steps that would have led the company to healthy (real health) business decisions. Instead, everybody was in it (including mngt)to get as much money as they could while the economy was strong. You are now seeing what thin ice they were operating on. The economy slumps, and the company was not healthy enough to survive it, and now is on the verge of bankruptcy. The only thing the UAW leaders have to say is that they are not giving anything else up. They just don't get it. The UAW should have pressed for a board seat, so they could have pushed GM to keep executive pay relative to labor pay, and also pushed for a progressive contract. This should have been done during the 90's so they could have weathered the next economic downturn. But instead, they are pushing for the tax payers to bail them out. Absolutely incredible. What is Yale and Harvard and Princeton teaching our current business leaders?

First of all, the Big Three are not asking for a "bailout". They are asking for LOAN! The auto industry relies on credit, which has all but been frozen through traditional channels. If we let the Big Three fail, we are looking at a lost tax revenue of $156 billion over 3 years. 1 in 10 jobs depend on U.S. automakers. Nearly 3 million jobs are at risk. Do we really want that to happen?

kiowa: I never said what ANY CEO makes is just. And, yes, I agree whether he is paid 14.8 mil or 14.8k, (he) should be held accountable and therefore, not have a job. However, he does still have a job and I feel, that whether he opted for it himself or it was forced upon him, we should atleast recognize that he too is feeling the pinch--even if it isn't to the magnitude the masses would prefer it to be. Seriously, how many CEO's are in charge of corporations that are laying off workers, closing plants, near bankrupt but STILL take their large bonuses and give THEMSELVES a pay raise? I'm not sticking up for Wagoner and I do think he is more part of the problem than the solution.

Life is cruel. When you're young you can run fast, jump high, get up at dawn and stay up all night. When you get old your strength fails, you can't concentrate and you need a lot of rest. So it is with corporations.
Some 50 years ago, the passenger railroad business was dying and the freight side was doing poorly too. Many railroads went bankrupt and the government took over the passenger business. Eventually the railroads recovered but they were never what they used to be. 40 years ago the same happened to the steel industry. The predictions were doom and gloom for the country should big steel fail. Fail it did, yet the country survived and the sky did not fall.
Times have changed. The auto makers cannot make the changes necessary the way things are. This goose that laid the golden eggs has run its course. $25 billion for bailing this group out is just money down a rat hole as nothing will change as this union's president illustrates with his attitude and rationalizations.
The sky is not falling despite Chicken Little's warnings but the changes needed will not be pleasant.

It boils down to accountability! The public voice has been pleading with GM and the UAW to get their act together for years. Like all greedy, self-focused, corporate/money driven organizations, they chose to ignore the truth and seek the almighty dollar regardless of the consequences! Short term vision. They've compromised the future's of thousands of loyal workers who put their trust in them! To have the nerve to ask for a Govt. handout is par for the course! Never give, just receive! As Kleej stated, no one, including the workers, is free from fault either. I too worked at the plant and was one of the money hungry many who turned the blind eye to the masses and took what they gave me! It's called "selfish" plain and simple. This is a wake up call for everyone. We can either learn from this, or let history repeat itself again! As for the company receiving a Govt. bailout...... what about the workers in mainstream America who have been struggling for years who didn't have it as good as people like me that busted their tails day in and day out that have been displaced in these horrific economic times?? Our govt. needs to put PRIORITIES over OBLIGATIONS and do what's right for the working man. End of story!

Mom5:
Wagner is still making $14.8 million according to the publicly disclosed SEC fillings. I'd sure like to run a company, loose BILLIONS, and take home $14.8 million. If he does in fact take a pay cut next year, what will it be to? $10 million?
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The speculators have little to do with the oil prices, other then they can artificially drive them up or down once they start to rise or fall for the very SHORT TERM. Speculators are good at applying this artificial pressure to wipe out positions out on the other side of the trades. The price still is dictated largely by supply and demand, and the strength of the dollar. If you take a look of a chart of the dollar, you will see how it's almost inversely proportional to oil. Not only has its recent strength driven down oil, but look at ALL other major commodities (corn, soy beans, wheat, rice, ext). All have declined by about the same %age as oil has. This is because these commodities (including oil) are traded on a global market and denominated in US dollars, so consequently a strengthening dollar, will decrease prices. Just as a weakening dollar (which was happening during the year run up) will increase prices. OPEC actually cut supply last month by 1.8 million barrels a day, because of weakening world demand. Further cuts are in talk with the slowing down around the world. And yes the world is slowing down big time. Most all of Europe, and Asia has seen negative GDP, which makes them officially in recession. The US will soon follow with their GPD #'s, and make the recession official here (even though we all know that we are in one)

I think that the reason Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have been able to remain competitive is because a) they are non-union and b)they do not have the large retiree healthcare fund to pay out every month. I forget the figure I heard, butit is in the tens of millions each month.

kiowamohican: I cannot speak for Ford and Chrysler, but General Motors already annouced Wagoner will be taking a pay CUT and not taking his year end bonus due to the current state the corporation is in. While he is lucky to have a job, that is for sure, I appluad him for doing the right thing and not padding his pockets even further at the expense of the longevity of the corporation and its workforce. I also feel this will position them (GM that is) in a much more favorable light in terms of getting Congressional support re: the bailout.
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And, finally, kiowamochian: the falling gas prices are a direct result of the UNREGULATED speculators keeping their mouths shut. The demand for oil hasn't went down and the production hasn't went up. I agree that the current economic state is to be blamed largely on the price of gas (trickle down effect). But, I do not believe that the gas prices are going down because of the global economic crisis. Why are they going down? Because they should never have went up to begin with!

Is 25 billion bailout going to change the way the automotive industry manages it's companies? I highly doubt it. They have real problems and they are going to have to make changes in the way they do business. The taxpayers should have to bailout businesses that make bad business decisions.

etown - I hardly consider the $10M the state gave GM as money. GM's annual payroll (in 2006) was over $300M. For WI to pony up $10M is chump change to GM. It is probably one of the reasons GM decided to pull out of Janesville. They just didn't see any committment from the State, County, and City. They have other plants that have their municipalities drooling over them with money.

the bailout will never be approved look at what wisconsin did for gm and the money they gave them, it will never be repaid back ,then look how they repaid wisconsin

Few questions anyone can take a shot at:
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Does anyone seriously think a $25 billion loan/bailout will ever be paid back under the current economic conditions that exist?
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How long before they blow through the $25 billion and request ANOTHER bailout? I'll put the over/under at 9 months.
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Where will the executives of the big 3 be booking a massive resort party at, once they get the bailout? AIG went to a top class resort out in CA once they conned the politicians to bail them out for $20 billion, and then $200 billion MORE after that. I'm thinking the big 3 can book something in the Caribbeans, or maybe Monte Carlo.

Rather funny that few seem to get that the low oil prices are a result of the faltering WORLD economy. We are entering into a DEflationary spiral. The same sort of thing happened in the 30's after the markets crashed hard in 29. Oddly the US dollar has strengthened as we are still seen as the financial capital of the world, and countries have run to safety in our currency. The strengthening dollar, is also a big reason for the FAST decline in oil, and all other major commodities, that are denominated off the US dollar.

Somehow I think that all of this (i.e. high oil prices) was a plan to get control back from the union. I mean, really has the oil company ever screwed auto companies the way they have for the last 7 years. They've been in bed together from the start. So they figured they would drive up gas prices, which would drive production down to the point where they could justify layoffs and plant closures. Only to open new plants with lesser paid employees.

What they didn't count on, was the whole economy going in the crapper, and now people who had financed cars all of a sudden can't pay for their cars. They didn't count on us changing our driving habits, they figured we would just put off buying a new suv.

And now as a last ditch effort the price is coming back down, but hopefully, we have learned our lesson and will continue to modify our driving habits so that this never happens again.

OMG .... Why aren't all of you people .... with all of your answers to these problems .... running this country?

ihavealife - nice description, but I am pretty sure that will not happen.

Now is the time that union members talk to each other and to union leadership to provide valid and reasonable solutions to get out of the mess the auto industry is in. It is time that the government is made aware that sitting on their thumbs and throwing money hither and yon will not solve the problem.
Many of you, I'm sure have contacted your elected rep's in government and let them know how you feel, but now, how about contacting them and offering your help. If the bailout is wrong, let them know why it's wrong. If you believe the bailout is good but it needs something else to improve it, don't sit on your thumbs, let them know. Somewhere out there there is an answer. Time is short-----could you be the one that solves or helps solve the puzzle? Work together, that's what Americans do best.

ctr1... you should be honored. Stick around, you might actually learn something too.

Red, your post is a repeat. You already said that earlier.

How long do the big 3 automakers have? No matter what we the taxpayers do from here on out the big 3 will sink. Too much production capacity. No more credit availability for consumers who are too deep in dept to be deemed credit worthy for a car loan. Very costly healthcare and pension contractual responsibilities and not enough revenue to keep it from sinking. Let's invest in universal health care so employers no longer have to underwrite it. Then we will be competitive with the Europeans. The "giveaway" to the big 3 should begin in the form of socialized health care for all. Otherwise we're just throwing taxpayer money away when the outcome is inevitable. "No matter what we do from here on out the TITANIC will sink". Instead of greed and shortsightedness companies need a sound business model based on honesty, integrity and real value – not smoke and mirrors accounting. Let’s start by just saying “NO” to outrageous executive salaries, perks and bonuses. In the meantime many business will fail. There will be great social turmoil and upheaval. And after the wind, earthquake and fire a still small voice speaking truth to this age.

What an honor to be in the presence of so many experts!

Ray Stone's link says it all, how you can pay 12,000 workers 31/hour for nothing, and if the 80/hour figure is accurate, how many 80/hr employees does it take to assemble a vehicle start to finish? Add to that the cost of retirements (which were earned) and cost of retiree health insurance wow, surprised they didn't fail sooner.

usaret...agreed. Here's the problem the UAW and other unions face. None of these organizations are focused on doing what's best for the masses. They're focused on what's in it for me, and how much can I get RIGHT NOW! No vision leads to short term gain and long term pain. We're seeing it unfold before our eyes. There were plenty of people around the plant who had this vision, however, it would've been virtually impossible to get a leader like this voted into that position. These leaders are handpecked by the National Union. Never forget that. Even if a person was able to get into office and attempted to restructure the UAW to be in a position for the new economy, and do the right things it would've taken to secure jobs and move the industry towards the future, there would've been way too much opposition by the majority of the union members who were so hung up on themselves and "what can you do for me now?" that they would've been ousted for trying to do the right thing! Leadership is a thankless position to be in if you have character and are truly attempting to do the right things for all the right reasons! The majority always goes against the grain because of the instant gratification factor that's been instilled in our generations of people. I think many people are starting to see how the future's been compromised over the years. What's done is done. The best thing we can do is not to let it be in vain and learn from it and move forward!

acejd93,

Your argument is completely false. Toyota has plants in this country right now that paying people 14/hr with barely any benefits. They would find people to do the jobs. The extra overhead of union employees and union benefits have made GM behind the curve as far as operating costs are concerned. Unions had their place in the auto industry back during the industrial revolution, now they are causing more problems financially. GM's corporate office has made some huge mistakes, but if all three are suffering, it is a pretty good indication that the union has a part in the demise of the industry in the US.

localboysince1968,

Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense then. $80/hr total compensation.

i have a hard time feeling sorry for a company that pays people to stay home and for 2-3 years after their job has been lost. the union got too strong and now the country is paying the big price. get rid of the high rolling ceo's and build a car that people can afford like the old days and you'll be ok.

usaret - You ask a good question. I can honestly say I saw it coming for many years. Should I have done more? Yes. I wish I had known how. As it was all I did was talk about the same stuff we are now discussing. I did try to represent GM in a way that might help others more receptive to buying GM products. Our kids were warned that there was no future with GM and they should not follow in my footsteps. Your question is valid on a larger level. Our political leaders, with Paul Ryan being a lonley exception, is just as blind to the long term impact of government spending as GM and the UAW were the our industry. Just talking won't get that job done either. When the unfunded obligations of government (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security) come due we may in a far worse situation than GM is now.

I'm all for a bailout so long as there are strict pre-conditions, namely large consessions by the unions, and large concessions in executive compensation. The last thing I want is a bailout to protect executive bonuses and retreats. Of course if the Janesville plant remains stagnant even with a bailout, then forget about it.

Reading all the posts, it was interesting to see how many saw it coming over the years but never did anything to head it off. Why?

2005?!?!?

12,000 UAW workers paid for not working

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider...

kleej - all I can say in response to your post is AMEN!!

RichE95,
You make a great point that I failed to mention in my last post. The lack of vision that exists isn't just on the UAW leaders side. The leadership of GM is just as lacking as anyone's. That was a great post. I will also add this: The workers who have been hit hard by all of this need to read what you just said and take it to heart. The same principle applies to the people. We cannot sit back and be resigned to our fate! Too many are waiting for the govt. to come up with a solution so that the affected workers can maintain the current lifestyle they've become accustomed to. Those days are gone. We the people need to look inside ourselves and make it happen. The govt. isn't responsible for our quality of life, WE ARE! There's so much opportunity out there and unless people are willing to change, it's always going to be beyond OUR grasp. Change is hard, I understand! (Believe me I do!) But, it's 100% necessary!

RichE95 - You summed it up the best from the inside. Posters, please pay close attention to what RichE95 has explained.

garyprimer~ Amen brother! That's exactly right.

I worked for General Motors for 35 years. GM flows through my veins and I so much want to see the company survive. However, I can not support the companies request for a bailout without reform in management and labor. My personal epiphany about the problems with GM and the UAW came in the late 1970's and the oil embargo. Our company was dominated by the arrogance of easy success but in reality GM and the UAW were in a "death embrace". For the next 25 years I listened to management claim they would soon step up to the uncompetitive nature of the UAW contract. It never happened. The last contract puts the burden on future employees while maintaining the current status quo. The promised cost relief will not come soon enough. GM has never made a dime on small cars and won't without a restrucured labor agreement. The original agreement with Saturn workers was to be the road to the future but it washed out when profits from SUV sales rolled in. We were told in the early 1990's that the company would be managed in the good times so we were ready for the inevitable bad times. Again it didn't happen. Any bailout of GM without reform of the UAW agreement is doomed to make GM a never ending welfare case. Yes, the ultimate responsibility lies with an upper management which declined to address or press for a competitive agreement with the UAW. GM was not managed in the long term best interests of employees or stockholders.

A house divided cannot stand. When the interests of the individual or group of individuals within a larger association, be it a company, marriage, church, or club become more important than the general welfare, all hope is lost.

Kleej - very well put.

Also to 'thediplomat', $80 is the amount it costs the company for wages per auto worker. It is the cost of the hourly wage + benefits that total this sum. That amount is right on

garyprimer, I agree with you to an extent. The UAW is just a name for a group or entity of PEOPLE who make up that organization. So if fingers were to be pointed, it would have to be at the LEADERSHIP of the UAW! The leadership of the UAW is made up of PEOPLE! It's simple what's happened here. The LEADERSHIP of the UAW has lacked VISION for decades! Under the watch of all the autoworkers who make up the UAW, the leadership of the UAW has compromised the future of the workers and the future of the industry for short term gain. Better known as INSTANT GRATIFICATION! "What can you do for me now"? I was a part of this as well so I'm speaking speaking about me right along with everyone else here! WE the people that make up the UAW have priced ourselves right out of a job! The UAW leadership lacked the proper vision to make the necessary adjustments that were needed to adjust to the new economy that we're now in. Here's what happens. The workers who vote in the leaders of the UAW would never vote in someone who might have an idea about making concessions and maybe giving in a little for the future. Visionaries are frowned upon these days because of the entitlement attitude that's instilled in our culture today. During the 1900's the UAW could get away with it when they had the ability to leverage due to the demand and lack of competition for the vehicles. The rules have changed and they didn't have the vision to adjust to that change now that it's here! I guarantee you had the LEADERSHIP of the UAW had the visionaries and the right leaders to rally the autoworkers around them and ride this change into the 21st century, the auto industry would NOT be in the turmoil it's in right now and the workers wouldn't be facing such an uncertain future as they are either. Everything rises and falls on LEADERSHIP!

working off an old model: unions worked when we had local/regional economies. We now have a global economy. No business is going to pay $100.00 to produce its widget when they can get the same widget produced for $10.00. (Those are random numbers for explanation purposes) There needs to be practical, realistic balance between management and labor, or they will all lose their jobs.

I do know people inside GM, & the ridiculous redtape & inefficiency is mind-boggling. The engineer, who certainly knows how & why to turn a dial, has to wait 3-plus hours for a union guy to do a 5-second job, while the union guy sits around & then when he/she finally shows up, complains that 'turning that dial is the job of another shift'. In the mean time, that 3 hour wait leads to further delays and on ocassion even shuts down the line. That bleeds money too. The engineer can't turn the dial because that will violate the contract.

Redhawk - my point in presenting some of the contractual items is the excessive benefits and financial burdens due to contractual obligations required of GM. These obligations are passed on to the consumer in the cost of the auto. Granted, GM didn't have to accept these, but we all have seen what happens when the Union doesn't get their own way. They strike. The contract ends up being the lesser of two evils. You were the one who mentioned JPD, JFD, and JP Cullen when describing "good paying jobs", therefore you will get people who will explain the difference in the jobs based on the pay.

By the way - I don't need to explain my employment history. I just know these things.

angel, your description of why you wouldn't work in a factory is one reason why I never complain about what wages and benefits the workers were able to negotiate in the past. You couldn't pay me enough to work those jobs, exactly because of repetition and boredom, so I consider the above average pay as compensation to work a job many people would not consider otherwise. That being said, since the situation isn't the same now, the idea that the UAW shouldn't sacrifice (along with upper management) is sickening.

whybesad,

Where are you getting your $80/hr figure from? That would mean autoworkers are making $160,000 a year without overtime. I didn't see that many escalades and McMansions when I lived in Janesville. Better do you salary survey again.

Wow, that is a pretty simplistic view from the Union. The economy is just one factor. Another factor is that because the Big 3 have so much more labor cost (due to the union), they can't get the same profit margains out of their vehicles that the foreign automakers can. One of these days the Union is going to have to start taking some of the blame here.

Angel- You're* not stating facts. You are talking out your @ss. J.P. Cullen workers make MORE than line workers. At least you admit that you don't use your brain. That explains a lot about your content in your postings.
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*You're- You are- a contraction as opposed to your- a pronoun. Please familiarize your "educated" self with these literary basics. Also, an apostrophe (') is also used to show possession. You continue to diminish my faith in our education system. The spell checker only checks to see if there IS such a word, not if it is used correctly.

Local, we can agree on your last point, but don't think for a minute it is like that now. The jobs are loaded down.

wow, my spelling and grammer were bad.

redhawk, nobody is talking about the bank bailout, because it has nothing to do with GM. If the banks were not bailed out, discussion about GM would be moot, because ALL commerce would have come to a halt.

Contrary to what the Detroit cheerleaders are telling you, if GM reorganizes under Chapter 11, auto production for ALL the other manufacturers will not stop. There will be delays, but not a complete shutdown of the entire auto industry. Just look at who are crying wolf the most to the media, and tell me they are objective.

The problem I have with the UAW is this: They want to be involved in all decisions automotive related, but do not want to take any responsibility if it doesn't work. The UAW was created to represent the workers on specific issues of working conditions, pay, and rank based on seniority. What they have done, is become more like a burden, and not a asset to the companies. That is why companies steer clear of unions. The funny part is that most orginal union ideas they faught for are now basic employment laws. If you look at non-union auto companies, they treat their employees as good as union companies, without their interference. Of course those non-union companies don't hang on to the dirt bags that don't want to work. In a previous post, Ace complained about the jobs being "loaded up". The problem with UAW workers is I believe they were not over paid, they were just under worked. There is nothing wrong with their pay, it was what the company was getting for that pay that was the biggest problem.

Red what skills do you actually need to work on the line at GM? This is why the auto worker is getting bashed. Do I want to work at GM? No I don't, I have to admit the wages and the benefits are unbelievable. Was the work hard or need any type skill? No, it invoved doing the same thing over and over again. Was it boring? Yes. Was I overpaid? Yes, you compare that job to any factory worker. If we compare those jobs where you need to make informed intelligent decisions, the auto worker is grossly overpaid. So please keep that in mind.

Local, I never said the skills were the same. And not every job at GM is a non-skilled job. And nobody has brought up contractual issues, of which you seem to think that you are so well versed. What I said was nobody's complaining about banks and insurance companies taking the bailout money and abusing it. There were no concrete stipulations put on these industries as to what the money could be used for. A lot of it is going to pay dividends to shareholders. And the rules of game changes every week. And why the anti-union behavior? Couldn't get in at GM when they were hiring?

redhawk, nobody is talking about the bank bailout because it has nothing to do with GM. If the banks were not bailed out, discussing about GM would be moot, because ALL commerce would have come to a halt.

Contrary to what the Detroit cheerleaders are telling you, if GM reorganizes under Chapter 11, auto production for ALL manufacturers will not stop. There will be delays, but not a complete shutdown of the auto industry. Just look at who are crying wolf the most in the media, and tell me they are objective.

Nobody can blame workers for wanting better wages and more benefits. You should all get as much as you can. God knows the people running the company are milking it for all that they can get, but when everyone gets too greedy and there is not enough money to go around, things can fall apart in a hurry. You can't really think that everyone is happy with the way the government is handing out "loans" to banks and insurance companies. We have the biggest bunch of thieves in Washington. If you think that our new man is going to be any better, take a look at what he is doing with his excess campaign funds. The reality is that it is in no way certain that the company will survive with a bailout and if no one is willing to change, it is inevitable. Only a madman continues to do the same thing and expects different results.

Redhawk - were do I start with you?

1st - The bailout of the financial institutions were in the name of national security. That means national security of our currency system, which is the responsibility of the Federal Government. The Feds are not responsible for the economic stability of the auto industry.

2nd - To compare the skills of an auto worker to that of a fireman (min 2years post high school & specific training), and a policeman (also min 2years post high school and police academy training) is ignorance. Until just recently, you didn't even need a high school education to get the job of an auto worker. JP Cullen positions are not all of the same. Skilled workers are paid more than general laborers, and general laborers are not paid $32 an hour, with free health care, clothing allowance, 5 VR days, and protection from coming to work drunk, stoned, or even worst, 3 days absence without any contact with the company. That is correct posters. GM UAW employees can skip 3 days of work without any contact with GM (calling in)and no fear of retribution of losing their job. Try that at JP Cullen, JPD, or JFD. Most major offenses (in the real world) are considered first offense at GM and the UAW will negotiate to have those removed from your record. If Redhawk wants me to continue, I can educated the real world on some more of the UAW contractual benefits that would be considered atroucious in the private sector. These are all added to the cost of the vehicle. Redhawk, just let me know, and I will continue with an added post.

Angel, I don't want to get into a petty "My dad's better than your dad" exchange. That's not what this forum is for. Apples to oranges? I don't think so. You say you worked there for a summer, and they told you that you had some of the hardest jobs there. Not to take anything away from you, but I doubt very much that you ever saw some of the hardest and most skilled jobs there. Not everyone can be a firefighter or build houses or farm or work an assembly line. But each job requires unique skills.

Red, your comparing apples to oranges. Comparing the skills needed to be a police officer or fireman and JP Cullen worker is far more intense than a autoworker. I bet even those 3 trades you mention would love to make as much as the person on the line at GM.

What gets me is nobody is saying anything about the government bailing out the banks and insurance companies. They too created their own mess. Nope, it's just the auto manufacturers we're all against. And quit whining about how much money and benefits the auto workers make, nobody ever complains about what J.P. Cullen workers or the police or firefighters or anyone else with a good paying job makes. Instead of insisting that everyone lower their standard of living and come down to your miserable way of existance, why don't you whiners take some initiative and try to make your lives better.

Don't forget about all the GM brands that overlap. It's one thing to be caught with too much SUV capacity when fuel prices rise, but do they really need to make a Chevy, GMC and Cadillac version of the same vehicle? What is the purpose of Pontiac? That isn't the performance brand, because it doesn't include the Corvette.

All of the dealerships that support different brands also dilute the market. Chevy, GMC and Pontiac often compete for the same customer. The franchise laws don't allow GM to cut brands easily or cheaply, so GM is forced to let brands wither on the vine, but now it is too late. Dealerships need to be trimmed as part of any bailout package, along with Management changes and labor cost reductions.

This is for fool_on_the_hill:

http://detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...

Myth #4 They already got a $25 billion bailout.
Reality None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.
Myth #5 GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Reality The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.
Myth #6 They don't build hybrids.
Reality The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.

Myth #1 Nobody buys their vehicles.
Reality General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide - about 3,000 more than Toyota. Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year. Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.
Myth #2 They build unreliable junk.
Reality The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo. Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth #3 They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.

I wouldn't say the UAW is out of touch. They are not responsible for marketing or design of the auto. They have come a long way in becoming progressive and IN TOUCH with the plight of the auto industry. What baffles me is when the head of the UAW only states what they are NOT going to do, instead of saying WHAT can we do to save the company and help save jobs. Again, blind rhetoric to the dire state of the business.

You can't blame the economy for this! Why not look at the ridiculous hourly wage the employees are paid? Or even the junk cars and poor marketing? UAW is out of touch.

The ignorance of the UAW to deflect blame for GM's condition is appalling. The ignorance of Rick Wagoner to refuse to step down is appalling. This is why we should be alarmed that the government is considering giving them money.

We voted the democrats in. The democrats want to bail out the auto industry. This is it, the end of the story. This is what we have to live with.

Thank you for your sensible concerns. I just hope that Congress shows half of the sense that you have expressed in your comment, but I do not have much faith in that happening when they take up this issue tomorrow. From the tone of this article it seems that the company and the union will resist any effort to be held accountable for the taxpayer's money. The party is over and now is the morning after, but they are in complete denial.

I would like to know how Rick Wagoner still has his job and still receives something to the tune of nearly $30 million dollars a year in salary, bonuses, and stock options? If you are the CEO or sit on the board of a company that is losing money as bad as the big three are, it is my opinion that you should not receive a bonus or stock options in any way, shape or form. Base salary maybe. That may sound extreme but think of a small business owner, if they are in the red at all, they don't get paid. Granted a publicly traded company is significantly different from a small business but the principle is still there.
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It is my opinion that for too long GM rested on its laurels and relied heavily on SUV's and trucks to carry them even while gas prices were rising. Although gasoline prices have came down over the past few months, it wasn't like gas was $2 a gallon one day then $4 the next morning, it was a steady increase and it was obvious what was going to happen. Hindsight may be 20/20 but GM should have been making smaller more economical vehicles before it was too late.
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A lot of people like to blame the UAW as being the sole reason why GM is in the position it is in today. This is simply not true, there are many factors that go into the reasons why the big three are in the positions they are in right now. The largest factor of all is that there is a whole lot more competition now than there was even twenty years ago. The big 3's share of the market has been steadily declining for quite some time now. Also keep in mind, while contracts were being negotiated, there were teams of lawyers from both sides negotiating every deal. It wasn't like there were men armed to the teeth standing in front of GM's board saying "do this or else." A lot of people make it sound like GM had no choice in the matter, they did and they agreed to every contract that was ever signed.

Before our government invests a huge amount of our money into a failing industry, I think it would be appropriate to ask for a business plan that would demonstrate the ability to repay that money. We deserve to see a business model that has a chance for profitability. Will there be vehicles the consumer wants to buy? Will there be prices that can be perceived as truly good values? Will those prices result in gross profit margins that can sustain the companies? Will wages and benefits for executives and rank and file workers alike be in line with the reality of the desperate situation these companies are in? Will legacy costs be disected and controlled?

There are many other sectors of the economy that are also hurting right now. And there's only so much money to pour into bailouts. As taxpayers, we're being forced to become owners and investors. We have a right to expect a return on our investments. If we help to keep these companies going now, will they be able to sustain themselves in the foreseeable future? Let's find out before we hand them our hard earned money. We all want to save jobs, but let's make sure these companies have solid plans for the future that include the appropriate elements of sacrifice and creativity to enable them to stay alive on their own.

If you own a small business that is failing is because your idea was stupid to begin with, not the economy!

How many pearl harbor veterans drive Toyotas? You say you drive foreign cars because of quality. I don't think so. Over one hundred different cars are made in America with JD Power awards. Sorry your foreign car just got door dinged. The wind cought my door.

Right on Joker.

Ace, spare us your whining. Fine, you worked hard. But so does everyone else in this town. You act like you were underpaid, had crappy benefits and lived a miserable life due to your employment.

I agree that it is whiny GM workers like you that make it bad for the other workers. Lose the pompous attitude. Also, you did not make $14 an hour at GM. Be realistic. Regardless, I could run circles around you at GM or any other place. Why? Because if you are so defensive, you must be accused of being lazy or not that efficient of a worker.

Finally, spare us the patriotic flag waving regarding UAW. They are a guilty party in this mess. Not the only guilty one, but they helped cause this mess.

Just fix the economy and leave us alone. We had nothing to do with it, we weren't even there, we were home alone that evening and went to bed early.

Angel, First off, "people like you" I take offense to. You don't know me! And to clarify for the record to you, I hold 3 college degrees in business, accounting and mechanical engineering. But you're right, I wouildn't make it as a nurse, I don't like the sight if blood. I have worked elsewhere and had the same attitude as everyone that people at Geanerous Moaners read papers and mabee put 2 screws in a vehicle. That's why I went there but the grass wasn't greener on the other side but the money is good. It's amazing how much you'll do for money. When I started it was easier. I don't know how long ago you worked there but up until 3 years ago it was easy, then they wanted all jobs to be loaded to where you work atleast 56 minutes out of the hour, and no that doesn't mean you get 4 minutes to screw off, you split that 4 minutes up and that leaves roughly 6 seconds per job to get a drink, blow your nose or tie your shoe without getting downline. I'm glad you thought it was easy, but do it for a living and that'll change your attitude. As for construction jobs, they are hard no doubt, but you can stop every now and then to get a drink and such without getting disiplined for it!

Ace you have to be kidding? I worked at GM for a summer between Semester's. I also worked construction one summer and at another factory a different summer. Do you honestly think working at Generous Motors is that difficult? It is was the easiest job I ever had. When I had to put my time in there, I got the jobs where your fellow co-workers were on vacation or sick leave. I was told that some of those jobs were the hardest one's that they had there. If that was the case you have no right to say how hard it is down there. If you ever worked anywhere else you would relize how good you actually have it. People like you are the reason that Generous Motors workers get bashed. You have it to good to realize what work is really like out there, and no I did not want to work there as a career. I didn't want to become brain dead from the boredom. Instead I got my higher education degree from and I am doing what I want. I bet if you think working at GM is hard you could never last working as nurse. There you have to not only work hard but use your brain. Those 2 things I never had to do at GM.

Ya right Ron. And SUV`s get good gas mileage.

The public needs to know that GM was already on thin ice before the economy tanked. The economy only exposed what was being hidden by economic good times - bad management strategies. The only reason the UAW was even open to consessions was they hired an financial consultant of their own, to review GM's books back in 2006 (when the economy was fine), and found the company was in trouble then. To have the UAW claim the current situation GM is in is due to the economy is blind rhetoric. What is interesting (and I don't have the answer) is the D3 have know for years the impact of legacy costs, but didn't have a strategy to absorb, or adjust business practices to offset it. It didn't sneak up on them! The only thing that crippled GM that was not their fault, was the rising cost of health care. However, I can't believe that GM with their buying power could not have just refused to pay those amounts, or at least joined with Ford and Chrysler to force the health industry to keep costs relative. If you look at some of your medical bills, some of the charges are just insane. The D3 might have even been better served to start their own medical system, given the cost they have incurred each year. I am glad I am not charged with making the decision whether to bail them out or just let the law of free markets determine survival. I really wouldn't know what to do.

If wages and benefits were lower, would they lower the prices of the vehicles since their costs would go down?? NO!!! I'd like to see you people do the work at general motors and make 14/hr with no benefits. 90% of you wouldn't last a day when you realize you can go elsewhere and make the same money with less wear and stress on your body! You can all do the blame game but it's not the UAW that is at fault, think about it, if it was the auto industry would have went down the toilet years ago!

Almost every other post so far sums up the situation the same, to varying degrees. It seems the GM cheerleading is returning to reality. I'm impressed.

Detroito: None of the transplants stopped production after 9-11 either. GM simply used 9-11 as a marketing tool.

Lets look back to 9-11. After the country was attacked the entire economic condition of the country was at stake. Who committed themselves to helping the economy-General Motors "Keep America Rolling."The company could have said, Well lets idle all American operations because we don't know what lies ahead. Instead they took massive hits on their bottom line to keep people working. Back then was it General Motors bailing out the economy. Finally it seems to me the government has been bailing out the farm industry for over fifty years.

Local boy, for once I agree with you. Well said. Darius, excellent comments. Thank you for your insight as well.

"The piece don't explain what makes the Big Three so uniquely vulnerable to economic pressures. Specifically, how are Toyota, Nissan, Honda and others who manufacture autos in the United States able to withstand the same economic conditions that threaten the Big Three with extinction?"

The country of Japan has universal healthcare, that's the flipside of not having retirees either. Honda just had it's first retiree go on pension a couple of years ago. Also, those companies build their products here, rather than ship them here from Mexico, India, S. Korea, China, and South America as GM does.

The UAW has is either short on brain or has alot of nerve. They need no further than to look in the mirror at themselves along with the rest of the corporate America to see why the economy is in the shape it's in. The UAW and many of these labor unions have always turned a blind eye as to what's going on in the rest of the world because to them, "THEIR" world is all that's ever mattered. Whatever suits them is the only priority! There have been workers hurting in mainstream America much longer than people think. Now that the unions have priced themselves and the workers right out of a job, it becomes an issue!! It shows the greed and the selfishness that exists in corporate America and the lack of responisibility people are willing to take for their own actions. The UAW is the voice for the auto workers, not their conscience! I've stood on both sides of the thing too! I was a Local 95 member for 10 years and never agreed with their motives or tactics. I'm not relieving myself of blame either. I took what was offered for the almighty dollar just like the next person. I did what I had to do at that time and managed to block out the guilt part because I was greedy just like the rest of them. I did wake up in time, unfortunately, not many others did that went down with the ship in Janesville. I'm not proud of myself for living the lie, but, I can't change the past. I can learn from it and turn it into a positive. Only, this time time, it's never going to be about ME anymore! People need help out there and it's hard to help others when so many are focused on themselves! IT'S TIME TO CHANGE!

Keep in mind, the UAW is going to be for any action that saves the company from filing bankruptcy, because if they do, their contracts are void. Upper management needs to show sacrifice as well as labor. And lately, upper management has not shown enough sacrifice.

There are many people to blame here, including the UAW. This is another gutless move by union leadership to pass the buck as always. Now everyone needs to throw in together and try to stablize this situation.

From the movie TITANIC: "How long do we have Mr. Andrews? An hour maybe two at the most. How about the pumps? They buy us time but only minutes at best. No matter what we do from here on the TITANIC will sink". How long do the big 3 automakers have? No matter what we the taxpayers do from here on out the big 3 will sink. Too much production capacity. No more credit availability for consumers who are too deep in dept to be deemed credit worthy for a car loan. Very costly healthcare and pension contractual responsibilities and not enough revenue to keep it from sinking. Let's invest in universal health care so employers no longer have to underwrite it. Then we will be competitive with the Europeans. The "giveaway" to the big 3 should begin in the form of socialized health care for all. Otherwise we're just throwing taxpayer money away when the outcome is inevitable. "No matter what we do from here on out the TITANIC will sink". Instead of greed and shortsightedness companies need a sound business model based on honesty, integrity and real value – not smoke and mirrors accounting. Let’s start by just saying “NO” to outrageous executive salaries, perks and bonuses. In the meantime many business will fail. There will be great social turmoil and upheaval. And after the wind, earthquake and fire a still small voice speaking truth to this age.

This is a very complicated issue to identify the root cause. It is a joint effort of blame. You can blame the greed of the UAW who took the manifest of safe working conditions, honest day pay for honest work, and expanded it to frivulous benefits (representing and fighting to keep drunks, drug users, attendance abusers, sleeping on the jobers etc.) exceeding the industry standard for uneducated manual labor. When I discuss these Union problems I am specific to the issues created in the 70's 80' and mid 90's. They have come a long way (too late) to become more progressive. You can blame GM management for incredibly bad domestic decisions coupled with spending sprees on Saab, Fiat, and Hummer with very little return on investment based on the orginal business plan. You could easily argue the major overlap in products that lost their original marketing structure created by W. Durant of purchasing steps you would endure during your buying lifetime. Not enough specific identity between the brands. Another mismanagement effort could be the unseemingly indifference between Ford, GM and Chrysler. What is really the difference? They all seem to share or copy each others technologies, which even confuses the auto buyer. I could go on to even explain the deeper rooted problems with supplier relations, dealer relations etc.

Well I would guess toyota is over 50% less than a so called union made vehicle. If the company makes more where is it taxed. How and where is the profit spent. I would guess not in the US. Are all unions that want good pay and benfits bad or is your opinon about only auto workers.

May want to blame the union for some of the blame to. $80 an hour compared to Toyota's $36.

To take str8shtr's comments one step further, is there anyone here who does not place the ultimate responsibility for a corporation's success or failure squarely on the shoulders of its board of directors? Under the current circumstances, I can't think of any group more deserving of shareholder and employee outrage.

It may Have to do with how imports and US made imports are assembled here are taxed.Also The CEO's of those companies do not live in the US or pay taxes here. My question is why does a suv made in a forgien country for $15.00 dollars a day labor cost. Cost the same as one made in US Where labor is $20.00+ and hour.
p.s. be proud GM,LEAR,LSI,You have all worked together to do a great job. Don't point fingers at each other there are enough people in this area that will point at all you and say that you made to much you didn't work hard enough.They just never got enough ambition to apply. I would guess.

They also have the ability to build multiple platforms on many of their assembly lines. I am not talking about a Tahoe and a Suburban, but a mid size vehicle and a SUV or some sort. They are able to build what the demand is, and not pile up 150+ days on hand of inventory because the plant only builds one vehicle. Times are tough now, and give it a few months, and even they will be laying off people if things don't improve.

good question fool. not sure i have the answer but i know that the toyotas/hondas/nissans are built in the u.s. by NON union workers....

The piece don't explain what makes the Big Three so uniquely vulnerable to economic pressures. Specifically, how are Toyota, Nissan, Honda and others who manufacture autos in the United States able to withstand the same economic conditions that threaten the Big Three with extinction?