No crystal ball needed--only the smallest bit of common sense. There is not one analyst reporting on this that thinks GM will actually pay this "loan" back. GM is bleeding money at an incredible rate--they produce a product that people are not buying and have no viable plan as how to turn things around. Another respondent hit the nail on the head. There is not one traditional bank that would loan this company 100 dollars let alone 25 billion dollars. The company needs to file for bankruptcy protection, re-organize and regroup....Aside from that, the government would be better off giving Honda and Toyota $25 billion in subsidies to build more plants in this country. The management of those companies have proven they can run their respective companies efficiently while also being profitable......

Joan:

The Janesville plant is finished-its not opening again. I believe its the oldest plant in the GM inventory-rife with inefficiencies. It was a nice ride, but its over.

There is news on today's local page about the GM closing and the effect it may have on the retirees and it cannot be opened. What up Gazette?

Wow - some people think they have crystal balls.
Let's just deal with the facts:

1) It's a loan not a bailout
2) GM has ceased production, not closed

Wall Street clearly believes this bailout will happen. GM stock is up about 150% in the last 6-7 days of trading (has went from around $2.00 to $5.50). Sure glad my put options expired last Friday, before the thing took off! :-)
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It's nonsense to say this is a loan. Everyone knows the loan will be defaulted on, and is why no one in the public sector would loan them the $$$. When its the tax payers $$, no one cares any more if it's ever paid back. We no longer have any government accountability, or fiscal responsibility any more. This IS a BAILOUT, and it's going to just tag on a few more billion to the national debt when defaulted on.

For Paul and anybody else who thinks that Pattycakes is Patty on medical (who know where) and that Macdaddy is her husband, please know you are EXTREMELY wrong. I honestly didn't read this article and only came on to see what I or my husband was being accused of saying. I only wish the best for everyone involved in what's going with GM. We have many neighbors that work for GM (some of them-both husband and wife work for GM) and some co-workers' spouses that are retired from GM so I hope everyone is able to benefit from this unfortunate demise. Thanks!

The execs ruined it for themselves by flying into DC on their private jets. Brilliant

You have to be an idiot to think GM isn't getting the loan. I won't call it a bailout because it's a loan. Obama already said he's going to make it happen so let's all relax.

The fact that the financial markets were able to get so many handouts after creating fake products and pyramid schemes just shows how the financial industry has much more power than the manufacturing industry which it has replaced over the last 20 years.

However, that power should erode due to the results of that power, and manufacturing should gain hold in the next months and years with the help of a weak dollar and democratic control. The republicans are still in charge right now and they do not support union workers, so there you go on the delay in getting the loan.

Funny how the media calls it a bailout when it's a loan. If you have an FHA or WHEDA mortgage - were you bailed out?

While I'm at it, can we stop saying "shore up" the financial industry like its been lost at sea or something? Who comes up with these stupid phrases? I really hate "shore up". Dorky.

No bailout. The company has obviously failed, so throwing 25 billion their way is throwing good money after bad. The infrastructure from management down to the line worker is broken. Once one adds a shift away from American cars into the equation, the current situation is hopeless. The writing has been on the wall for years--the younger generations want nothing to do with American cars. When I grew up, my friends and I all dreamed of owning a Mustang, Camaro or Corvette. Those cars have been replaced by the Acura RSX, Nissan 350Z and Toyota Supra. Incidentely, I ended up buying that Camaro after graduating college. Total piece of junk! I have since owned 2 Hondas and 3 Toyotas, all of which performed flawlessly and have offered a great return at trade-in time......

There's a reason why they announce their labor costs in per worker per hour form.

It's quite misleading for your average non-economist reading a blog that UAW workers are taking home $70/hr in wages in benefits when no individual worker is doing such a thing. Using this statistic, if they cut half their labor force (half of the hours worked) their "labor costs" will increase sharply when measured in this way. So, may be useful for the automakers accounting departments...not a good way to assess the standard of living of a UAW worker..which many are apt to do when faced with this figure.

The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages, and I can assure you that GM is not paying $42 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. Rather, the $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM’s total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

It is not the hourly workers that are killing the auto industry.

Thanks for the clarification puffer.
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I wrote that post kind of fast. This is after all just a blog, and not a research paper. Most all what I post is off the top of my head. I should also correct that FDIC was created in the 30's (1932)and not the 40's.
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You are correct in that banks pay into the FDIC. However; there is only roughly $52 billion in the system, of about $4.3 trillion of insured accounts. So I see where you get the 1.25% figure. The problem of course arises if a massive bank like Citi (or JP, Wells Fargo, Bank of America) goes under, and no one buys them up. Those major institutions all have well over $52 billion in accounts, so it would break the FDIC, and require a tax payer bailout of the FDIC regardless. $52 billion is not a lot of $$$ when you see what sort of $$$ that is being tossed around with these TARP bailouts.
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Now what I have been arguing is that these huge banks WON'T go under, and most are just calling the bluff of Paulson and the feds, so they can get cheap $$$ under TARP. I fully admit if a major bank does go under, and no other bank can buy them up, it's going to require a massive fed (tax payer funded) bailout regardless, and most likely cost more then what we are doing with TARP.
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These huge banks have multi billions (if not trillions) in assets and accounts world wide. Remember as soon as WAMU went under there was big JP Morgan taking them over at pennies on the $$. Wells Fargo was so upset that JP took them over so cheap, that they filled a lawsuit that they were not given fair play in buying them out! So JP chomps at the bit to SPEND BILLIONS to buy out WAMU, yet they (JP and others) need a TARP bailout????
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To me these bailouts are NOT needed, and it's been totally overblown by the huge lobbying interest that these banks have behind them on Capital hill. Paulson is right in bed with all these huge banks (he is ex CEO of Goldman Sachs, don't forget) and HE ALONE is deciding who gets the money!!! This is sheer madness. Any small/mid size bank that is in big trouble, and goes under, will simply be bought up by a bigger institution at a bargain price. That's just how the market place works. These huge banks are NOT in danger of going under, IMO, and TARP was just a way of getting easy $$$$$. All they had to do was create enough panic, and fear, and sure enough a near $1 TRILLION in loans were allocated in no time at all, in a 400 page bill that most did not even read!

kiowamohican - just a clarification. All FDIC insured banks pay into the fund that covers funds within the insured limit at banks who fail - it is not taxpayer funded. The target is to keep the fund at 1.25% of total insured deposits, which it is below at this point but is doubling premiums in 2009 to replenish the fund. It is possible that this could become taxpayer funded if these funds run out, but at this point it is not.

test

Where were all the lawyers when this TARP bill was changed to 400 pages with all the pork, gimmicks, etc? Doesn't our government have anyone to look over these papers before they pass a law? Or was congress well aware of all the pork added on and just let it go thru? We better start looking into rehauling our system in the government. No pork should be added to any laws being voted on. Especially when it's our money being handed out.

Also the only insurance company that has failed and got part of the TARP $$$ is AIG. I agree that it would have been better to let them go under, and be bought up by someone else, and emerge stronger. Instead they got $20 billion, and then later $200 billion, and after each "loan" the executives went to top class resorts, and spas.
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The banks being bailed out is not as cut and dry. See, the major problem with those who say don't bailout Citi (or other large banks) is that if you do let them go under, and no one buys them up, the government will have to bailout all the accounts anyway. As the FDIC insures you, I, and all Americans on $$$ we deposit into our bank. Such an FDIC bailout of a major bank could very well end up costing far more $$$ then a TARP bailout, or equity stake/backstop backing bailout, which is what we have done with quite a few major banks the last couple months(Citigroup being the latest).
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So it's not really as easy as saying "the banks get a bailout no questions asked, while the autos get crucified". As a major bank failure is going to lead to an FDIC bailout by law anyway. FDIC was put into law back in the 40's after many did loose everything they had in their bank when the bank went under during the Great depression. It was one of the good things that actually came out of the New Deal.

w8nc:
That was one of the considerable flaws in the TARP (Troubled Assets Relief program) "bailout" bill that was passed into law. This thing started as a 3 page bill, that was initially voted down. After all the gimmicks, and pork were added onto it, it ended up being 400 pages in the 2nd go around. As I posted many times in regards to that bill when it was all taking place back in Sept/Oct; how many in congress actually read the bill? Even read 3 pages, let alone all 400?
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This thing was ram rodded through congress under the notion that the economy would totally collapse the next week if TARP was not put into place. Most did not even realize the bill had pork give outs for wooden arrow makers, sheep wool producers, and on down the line. However; the big thing most in congress did not know was the astounding power that it gave to the Secretary of the Treasury. Who basically ascertained TOTAL control over how, who, and where the $$$ would be directed.
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So to answer your question, basically it was ALL Hank Paulson (the current secretary of the Treasury)who decided to change his mind, and redirect how the $$$ was spend. All by the authority he was given by the TARP bill. The troubled assets the bill was originally meant to be buying up, instead changed into taking equity stakes in troubled institutions. When he made this sudden change, not only did the market crash, it made many in congress steam about how it went against what the bill was designed to do. However; THEY signed onto the bill, not even knowing what was all in the thing, and the power that it asserted to he secretary of the Treasury. Just showing the whole thing was a big rush to "do something", when in fact it arguably did more harm then good.

Why not let insurance companies fail so a stronger insurance industry emerges? I'm not really for or agains any "bailouts" but I don't really think it's fair to offer it to one industry and not the other. Plus, can anyone tell me how the bailout money can all of a sudden be used for something other than what it was not intended to be used for? Can the government say, "oops... we changed our mind"?

Under bankruptcy you can STILL operate, while you restructure. Letting them fail does not mean all operations just cease. It gets put into court, and concessions are made on plans to go forward under a structure that will be PROFITABLE!
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For all the talk I have heard about these "evil" companies who are making this obscene profit (big oil was a HUGE target of this over the summer), I think you are now starting to see what happens when a company is NOT profitable.
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BTW, massive unemployment does NOT = high prices. In fact; it leads to DE-flation, and prices come down. That is what happened during the Great depression, and is what you are starting to see a little bit of now with the struggling world economy.

You are correct Billnewbie:
The WSJ had an article that detailed just how insane the costs for the big 3 are now, and I believe your $81 (per vehicle) figure was correct. I'll have to see if I can find a link to the article.
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I honestly have no problem with auto union workers making huge $$$ for unskilled work. I'm happy for their success. Just don't come whining when the gravy train goes bust.
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Everyone knows that a bailout will just extend these bloated contracts a few more months, and that they will be in the SAME position a few months down the road. How many times do you supporters of this want to be bailed out? Because the way it stands now, it will be just one big endless bailout; as none of the big 3 will turn profit under the current state of their company, and market conditions.

Yes, the union labor cost per car is quite high. I have seen estimates as high as $81 per hour (WSJ). That is not how much a line worker is paid w/benefits as that includes the price of all those retired workers and those who collect benefits while unemployed or under-employed as well as all those voluntary separation packages offered and accepted.
Conversely, I have seen Toyota's U.S. labor costs estimated at $35 per hour benefits included. How can GM, Ford and Chrysler compete with that?
Are the non union employees of the "big 3" overpaid as well? They most certainly are. Do they think so? No more than the UAW members do.
So what's the solution? It's obvious that no one will step up and volunteer to take less (a lot less), especially when they believe that no one else will and since many believe that they are not overpaid anyway. Bankruptcy is the only real solution. It puts an end to the nonsensical rationalizations of why nothing really needs to be changed. Sure, everyone agrees that something needs to change, but everyone also agrees that changes need to be made by someone else. Management thinks the union workers need to change while union workers think management has to change and the retirees don’t care what changes as long as those changes don’t affect them.
All those employed by the auto industry are on the equivalent of the Titanic. Protecting your side of the boat and blaming the other side isn’t going to keep you dry.

I've never heard anyone say ALL Toyotas are made in the U.S. I assume you have the same disdain for GM products made in Mexico and Korea?

Calling someone an "American hater" because they buy what the free market has to offer is silly and ignorant. I bet you would have a different view if you worked at a U.S. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mercedes or Hyundai factory, to name a few. Nevermind that the Toyota Matrix is built right alongside the Pontiac Vibe in a GM/Toyota joint venture.

Until the Government decides to put limits on free trade, I will buy what's best for the economy of my family, not what's best for your economy.

An earlier post on Nov.24 states, "Toyota says its higher than ususal inventories at the Long Beach port are a result of shrinking demand, particularly in Southern California, one of its biggest markets."
http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstories/?...

A while back, the Jap vehicle owners just couldn't say enough times how their Jap vehicles are made in the USA, in attempts to justify what they are doing.

So how do the import lover, American haters explain the Toyotas at the port of Long Beach? Will they say that the Toyotas are being made here and exported, then imported again?

hannah: There is a reason RAM trucks have always played second fiddle to Ford and Chevy. They are known for power train problems. In some cases, especially with some foreign cars, I'd agree with the point you are trying to make, but Chevy does build good pickup trucks. They have the highest resale value of any full size truck. Moreover, Chrysler is in just as much trouble as GM if not more. The only reason you don't hear about it more is because they are privately owned.

hannah,

I don't know where you have been but Dodge isn't exactly doing well either. I work with a media planner for the Dodge account and her day is now filled with pulling advertising and hoping she still has a job tomorrow.

shorty64, thank you for saying what needed to be said. Corporate America has finally won. They have average, ordinardy working people pitted against each other over who has what and how much do you make and what do you have that I don't... Instead of trying to lift themselves up and make a better life for themselves and their children, they want to bring others down to their level. They think we should all work for basically nothing while the executives make more and more.

What everyone has failed to realize is that every foreign car manufacturer is subsidized by their own government, with the exception of Canada. How can GM compete in a country like Japan when a car built in the US costs twice as much there as it does here because of the tariffs and taxes that are added on to it? Until our government does something to level the playing field, none of our companies can compete in foreign markets.

And speaking of costs, if the US had a national healthcare system like the rest of the industrialized countries have, that would be one less worry for the automakers.

The bailout idea is wrong on so many levels. One thing that comes to mind is the bandaid effect. We've seen one restructuring after the next fail.
This is a defining moment in time where an icon of an institution has the opportunity to completely re-engineer and retool itself. The "good ole boys" way of doing business cannot and will never again work in this society. Things must absolutely must get worse if any permanent improvement will ever be created.

Dealers are not taking the cars ON PURPOSE.

"Normally, the cars would be rolled out of a huge container ship, onto the pier and onto trucks within hours headed for car dealerships around the country. But, dealerships have put the brakes on new car inventories."

"Experts say the cars have kept coming at their regular pace partly because auto factories can take months to adjust to changed in demand."

"Toyota says its higher than ususal inventories at the Long Beach port are a result of shrinking demand, particularly in Southern California, one of its biggest markets."
http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstories/?...

Great point Hannah! Toyota, Honda, KIA anyone!

The whole GM bailout fiasco reminds me of a saying I read a while back. The one who complains the most about the way the ball bounces is likely the one who dropped it in the first place.

shorty64
I worked at Generac and stood on my feet 10-12 hours a day making $8.50 an hour. I busted my butt and watched a girl get her finger ripped off by a machine. Not trying to offend anyone here, but the wages the GM workers made was highly inflated when compared to work done at different factories for similar types of work. At GM, it was who you knew that got you a job there not what you knew. THAT is why GM workers will find a difficult time making a wage that they are used to because they do not have the necessary skills needed today. That is the facts. That is why they want a bail out. it does not matter anymore. the ship that was GM has sailed overseas to make more money for cheaper labor.
Plus, we outsourced all of our jobs to other countries for cheaper wages and we paid for it by buying those products and having our kids and pets poisoned.

piterboy... you say you retired from one of the big 3 and are "threatening" to buy foreign?? Might want to reconsider if the big 3 fail you have NO pension. Be careful what you wish for.

First of all, what a shame it is to read all the hatred in a small community. To set the record straight on the $73 an hour saga please read from The New Republic an article titled the Assembly Line; it WILL set alot of you straight. Secondly, those of you blaming the UAW; ie local too, wake up. It's not just them. Many workers bitch up a storm when things are "given up" for lack of better; to make for a more profitable contract. Janesville has given the best contract out there, many other plants have said "no way" to do such. So give a little slack there please. I wonder too, how many that "would bail the union, or never join a union" have been the "squeekiest wheel??" Many of those elected officials put in time from their families etc. OFF the clock to make it a decent place to work. Years and years on an assembly line, whether it's GM or other takes a toll on a persons body. I am willing to bet not many of you can stand doing the same thing, hands hurting etc. for 30 plus years. I couldn't. One other thing to consider, with those of you so ready to send all these people on their way, get this... Talk is Ground Round, Prime Quarter, Fudd Ruckers and a couple pizza joints are possibly shutting down. Makes a person, an honest person; wonder what will become of everything. This country is in a dire straight, and if something isn't done soon, I hate to think of the outcome. The few of you that are proud to drive your foreign vehicles, good for you; just pat yourself on the back for the great future you are leaving for you kids and grandkids. Slap yourself beside the head if you are paying for that foreign vehicle with your pention from one of the big 3. May the best outcome be bestoed uppon these people that are out of work because of all of this. And hopes for a better 2009 to all directly involved.

Its like the little kid saying, "Is there REALLY a Santa Claus?"
Hoping when they know the truth..

Seriousely I am scared to buy things from China. Too much lead. JMO
Buy American!!

astenson2001,

I don't think it is about realizing that "GM IS GONE". Now it is about GM workers being able to collect their pensions. The buyout (with restructuring of the executive team) would help with that. A bankruptcy could mean that GM doesn't have to honor those pensions.

Believe me, if you live in the Janesville area, you want them to be guarenteed a pension. Because of the nice pension they have, they didn't have the 401K option until later in their career. And even then, they probably didn't put as much as you or I did because the pension would supplement most of their retirement. I know if I still lived in the area I wouldn't want all those people on social services after they reach retirement age. The taxpayer will end up paying for that.

a comment way down below from angel about the employees owning the company.

That is in reality what needs to be done. It is called an ESOP.

The $$ is a loan from the gov. to the auto company but to qualify the executive mgmnt needs to go, reorganize to a ESOP company, employyes will own stock and they have voting rights as to who is on the board of directors. They wont need a union since they own the company. The hard part is the legacy costs for the retired workers but work somthing out with a lump sum payment.

The hourly wage will be lower, and total package for bennies will be less BUT they will have jobs, and have cheap stock today that will appreciate in value. Let's say they pay $15/hr on average as an example plus $15/hr in bennies plus 1 share of stock for each hour worked. 2000 hrs a year= @$6000 for GM stock at todays value BUT if the company does well and gets back to $50 per share then look at your earnings and your nest egg. Not bad for 1 year. However you would now have workers in 2 or 3 years time that wished they did not vote for Obama since if they sell that stock, they will get taxed alot more under his plan.

What this does is make the "big 3" competitive with the Jap's as far as making a profit on an affordable fuel efficent car instead of relying on SUV's and trucks profits to subsidize the less expensive cars.

Also I dont understand why some people think all that the big 3 make are gas hungry cars and trucks. They make quite a few high quality and fuel efficent cars. Also GM owns Saab and Ford owns Volvo so if you really need an imprort buy one of those since the $$ comes back to the US. I dont care if a Toyota is built in the US the money goes to Japan.

Reminds me of the old movies where the prisoner sits in the electric chair, the clock is ticking, and the camera pans to the phone on the wall, waiting for a call from the governor. The governor would make the call if he only had the power to do so, but the call in this case must be from GM and they are too busy planning their resurrection (and exit strategy in case the soap doesn't sell).

All the manufacturers are offering rebates or financing incentives of some sort on almost every product (yes, even Honda, Toyota and Nissan). Auto sales have gone from 16 Million vehicles per year to an estimated 10 million per year rate. Nobody can afford to create an artificial demand by witholding products. These aren't beeny babies. A more likely senario is that demand is so low on some vehicles, there is no space on the dealer lots.

A bailout is like a band-aid on a cancer.
These companies, the "big 3", need bankruptcy to fix what ails them.
Bankruptcy puts control of these companies under a court appointed receiver and gives pink slips to the people who managed these companies to bankruptcy, bringing to a stop the 8 figure bonuses, the executive jet rides and even the 2 martini lunches. It brings in new management with fresh ideas and it abrogates contracts that make these companies unable to compete.
Yes, that means that bankruptcy will force the UAW to renegotiate its generous contracts which have been built up over time by the negotiations and strike support of union members both past and present. That is a difficult pill to swallow. But the fact is that the typical UAW worker is paid very well indeed, too well to compete with foreign automakers. Not only are UAW workers paid a little too well, but their work rules are also a huge detriment to the competitive position that American automakers face. Don't Union work rules prohibit line workers from doing certain tasks they are capable of doing that must instead be done by some other worker specialist, often times causing production to stop while the right worker is located and assigned? And yes, the retirees will have to get by with less, not starvation and other privation, but less than what they have become accustomed to. They may feel as though they are helpless victims of this current debacle, but in fact they were participants in the current problems their industry faces with their shortsighted demands of the past when they were active UAW workers.
The UAW and all the non-union employees staked their futures on their employers and now they will all have to face the consequences of their joint failure. The current economic problems of the country are not the reasons the “Big 3” are failing, it has just brought the failure out in the open for all to see.
By the way, the Janesville plant is never going to re-open. No one wants a 100 year old plant in a place with nearly the highest property taxes anywhere in a state with nearly the highest income tax anywhere and a state budget so out of control that they need to fix it every 4 months or so with a new state legislature controlled by a party that sees higher taxes as the ticket to Shangri-la.

OK - seriously. I am not a pessimist by any means, but it is time for the people of Janesville and GM to pull their heads out of the clouds and realize that GM IS GONE. It would not matter if GM got part of the bail out money or not, GM has ended its run in Janesville, Wisconsin. And what about the workers of Gilman, Lear, etc who are also affected by the economy? You never see a Gazette story stating their hopes or point of view on their situtions. As it has been for years, GM workers and Union members are the only ones recognized as having a voice. They are also the ones still sitting around holding out hope with their 2 years of pay and benefits coming their way while the Gilman, Lear, etc workers have to live in the real world with the rest of us. Maybe the GM folks can join us soon - as in Dec. 23 when they realize that their "Generous Motors" days are done for good.

Yes, all the manufacturers are not doing well, but customers don't base a buying decision on how many cars are on the dealers lot. If GM has to restructure through Chapter 11, the entire auto industry won't come to a stop. It's becoming more likely that a Government "bailout" will actually be pension and auto warranty guarantees, so GM can restructure retiree benefits, get labor concessions from the UAW, and drop some brands. The Government could provide loans to GM for warranty insurance, so customers won't be afraid to buy their autos during chapter 11.

Interestingly, a few days ago, Honda said they only have about 14 days supply of the Fit (built in Japan), and are considering production of those cars in the U.S.

I have no problem with the bailout if two conditions are met:

1. The current executives at these 3 companies are immediately let go and new management is brought in. The current business model is a failure and the major cause of US automotive strife.

2. The union has only half the power they did before this. The overhead on employee pay and benefits are part of the reason for the shape of the company. You can't deny that. To save this company, benefits have to be slashed. It is just the cold hard truth. GM, Ford, and Chrysler need to be able to achieve the profit margins that foreign auto companies are seeing with their US factories.

The funny part is the price of GM stock right now. If all of you that are wanting the government to help them out would buy stock. Problem solved. Problem is...NONE OF YOU WANT THEIR WORTHLESS STOCK! So why should I as a taxpayer pay for it? If i wanted it, i would call my stock broker and buy stock in GM, but i don't want it, just like you. That is the point of selling stock.
Amazing how economics works.

GM CEO gets up in front of employees and says

I AM NOT A CROOK .

Just crossed the wire...Citigroup is going to get an even BIGGER bailout to save them from bankruptcy.
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WHERE are all these people who were posting on how needed, and great an idea these bailout were? I heard some say it was a "loan" and "investment" HAHAHAHA. Lets see, we put $25 BILLION in tax payer money ALL READY into Citi, in an EQUITY (stock) stake. Since that "investment" the stock has dropped over 80%! So how is that "loan/investment" working out now? Details on the next tax payer infusion will be coming out later this morning.
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The GM "loan" will be no different. It will just be massive corporate welfare disguised as a "loan" that will never be paid back, and just add more to the national debt.
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So any thoughts on where these executive will go once they get their BILLIONS? AIG blew a few million on a 5* resort in CA for their executives after we bailed them out. Citi and GM, should go balls out when they get their bailout. Head off to the Atlantis in the Dubai, compliments of you and I (the tax payer).

If we bail them out, all I have to say is,
"Dude, Where is My car??"

Jonesy99-
I agree to a point. Why bail out those who can afford to live the great life? Spa vacations, private jets, etc etc. Sickening. I think that the money used to bail out all these companies should be used to bail out American families instead. I am a RN, my husband programs CNC, so we do ok. But at the same time, we have four children, one who has to have multiple open heart surgeries and who has multiple health problems and I have to fight with insurance companies. Too top it off, I messed my neck up and had to have surgery and will be out of work for 8-12 weeks. Mercy, my employer, has been excellent to our family and my husband can do overtime. But you dont see our government bailing us out.
Do you know some countries actually give free health care, time off, free nannies, and free college educations? All for what we pay in taxes..
But yet WE get to bail out BIG corporations.
Dude, where's my Car???

msleo- I think you need to reevaluate your figures about some of the wages you state that dental hygenists and lab techs make. I think you have grossly miscalculated.

ALl of you need to contact your congressman (or congresswoman)and let them know that federal money should go to lending institutions that have the guts to issue cheap car loans so that people can buy some of these cars now and keep some of the lines working. Maybe they need to even help people buy the cars with tax deductions? In addition, the company needs to rapidly refit the lines to start making product that the consumer wants. The days of the big Envoy are over. Any money from the government has to be with these goals in mind.

While I appreciate your empathy dkush21, I am a survivor. I've learned that times have changed substantially. The employers cannot be expected to be what they once were. There is too much competition.

Thank you LuLu. Glad you have finally seen the light. LOL.

stillgrowing1: Sorry to hear that. If a company is going to give the employees insurance, they should have given it to the supervisors also.
There really should be universal healthcare. That is one major problem in this country and why so many are not insured. And only to those that are U.S. citizens.

Excellent idea Angel...I'm quite sure the employees will jump right on that failing business.
To dkush21, yup thats what the real world looks like to the rest of us. I was under contract with Lear as a supervisor a couple years back. Guess what! I had no insurance through that entire period.

I have a simple solution to this situation. Most of us can agree that the government shouldn't bailout the big three. They need to help themselves. The employee's past and present could buyout the business with their own money or assets. This has been done numerous times in the past. They could easily turn those companies around. Lets face it, if the employees don't want to do this they have no right to ask the American taxpayer for help.

HaHaHa, as I read up on the comments the Google ad box reads:

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&

Unions: The 7 Great Lies
Do you know them? Don't let your employees vote before you see this.

How fitting.......

My husband just lost his job at Lear, cobra for medical insurance, vision and dental was aprox $950 month for the both of us. That would be $11,400.00 a year.

Back to the question about the shrinking middle class.
When I was in college in 1993, we were asked to write our thoughts about the increased number of college students. It was at a time when it became much more fashionable for women and minorites to become educated.
I suggested that the rules of supply and demand would dictate that wages would stagnate or decline because the number of educated and qualified employees had doubled.

Wow... I can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with the Joker....

Tazjr800 - in 1993, I was involved in negotiations for bids containing Janesville UAW assemblers. Their hourly rate was $18.44 an hour, and the total rate was $48 which included all benefits charged to GM. Don't start misinforming people by telling them on this post that the total wage rate is $41 an hour. It is around $73 and that was reported by GM themselves to the media. I can assure you that health care rates alone are over $25K a year.

Even if there is a bailout of GM, they should keep the Janesville plant closed. It is too old and would take too long to retool for a new line. The GM gravy train has already left Janesville and won't be coming back. The sooner some of you out there realize that, the sooner we can start to recover and get more jobs with realistic wages and benefits instead of the outrageous wages GM employees were paid.

Well I dont make that much.. I survive on $16 an hour and I feel lucky to get that. Most people in my place of employment dont come close. I program CNC machines and make sure they run. I am a single father who also helps my ex-wife with the daughter who lives with her. I have no retirement fund, collage fund, or any of the extra benifits that GM workers have.. my point is this and only this.. WHY should I care if GM workers get thier benifits or not? Why should I shed a tear for GM.. BOOHOO.. Life sucks and it will get suckier, but damnit, I refuse to give my money to support those who shoulda saved for that rainy day, cause its storming on me.

8% another UAW brain wash

Unions were created a long time ago under different circumstances in labor/ world condtions. Those times are long gone and the union has become a leech on the system. Just as our bi-partisan government is failing us all, so are the unions. It is time for change as it is sure to come. I say this with the teachers union inclusive. Let the cream rise to the top and be compensated for the value they bring to the table. If you want good teachers, pay for them. Let them compete. Same goes for factory work.

I doubt that wges and benefits are only 8%. Wages are always the biggest controllable expense for any business. There is also the fact that the value of the time of those hourly people is important to the profitability. When I was supervising the paint booth cleaners, their 10 hour a day job was comprised of about 2.5 hours of work. Some of them made no bones about telling me where they slept on the job.

All you Union haters and bashers need to get one HUGE fact correct. The UAW workers wages and benefits are NOT $73 per hour.Their wages and benefits are roughly $41 per hour. The $73 per hour figure has RETIRED LEGACY costs included in that figure. Think about it. The average wage is $28 per hour. If health benfits are roughly $12000 per year, which they are, that equals $6 per hour. That takes you to $34. Then add in pension benefits and you get to $41. Maybe if people heard the TRUTH as to the wages of the workers, this country would see how bad GM is ran and how overpaid the execs are. GM's hourly workers wages are only 8% of the cost of a vehicle. Where is the other 92% going? Don't blame the workers.

piterboy - don't be an igonrant socialist idiot. People like you are the reason America is in trouble. Move to Canada.

HEY WAGONER, KEEP 1 MILLION OF YOUR 26 MILLION AND GIVE THE COMPANY 25..........THAT SHOULD WORK AND GET A SUBCOMPACT CAR IN THE PROCESS!!! DOWNSIZE YOUR LIFE AND I WILL DOWNSIZE MINE...OTHERWISE I WILL CONTINUE TO BUY FOREIGN AS LONG AS I HAVE A DRIVERS LICENSE, YEAH AND I RETIRED FROM ONE OF THE BIG THREE.

We Dont need Unions PERIOD.

Now why should the teachers union be left out of this? It is a union is it not? Do I feel teachers are underpaid? Yes. Our Government should be handeling this. Does it want a country of morons? If we leave any aspect of our livelyhood to some second party, to take controll of our best interests, for a fee. Then we leave ourselfs open to explotation. we elect congressmen that should do this for us.

As far as unions go not for them at all but have to say the teachers union is not out of control like the UAW. The UAW does a great job brain washing workers. How about being gratful to have a job like the rest of the world and represent yourself by your performance not by the protection of a union.

Woody union are nothing more than legalized organized crime Period .

Don't compare the teachers Union to the UAW. A far fetched analogy at best. Get real woody.

Just a question...Are all you anti union people against the teachers union also?

My point exactly.. have a tangible worth to the company you work for.. not some corporate boss who borrows from a bank and has ideas on how to make the company more profitable, when he hasn't a clue as to what the company does. Then he takes off for a vacation in the bahammas as the company fails... Now what was that persons worth?

I think we should go back to where people made wages upon their worth and how much they contribute to their job. This is where we went wrong. Like I said before, you have lazy and hard working people. Let the lazy ones go and keep the hard workers. This also goes for the big wigs. Don't just sit behind your desk reading a newspaper, (and I'm not saying that you all do), pull up your sleeves and go out there and dirty your hands a little bit when needed to keep your own company afloat just like my Dad did. I thank him everyday that he showed me the true meaning of hard work.

No it is not new news, we debating the role the Union, all Unions have in the demise of the the current plight most americans are in.

Someone should tell me if I remember this correctly. It seems to me that before the announcement of plant closings, there were mass layoffs of engineers from GM. I question how the company could be competitive without the proper personnel in place.
I began college in 1990 (at 30 years old). At that point (18 years ago) the demise of the big 3 was already being predicted. It was known then that they were unable to be competitive. Is the plant closing thing really news to anyone?

Love the $20 whopper analogy it makes so much sense could of not been put better. I think it might let some people understand why alot of american are not for the bail out and feel the UAW is a big big part in the failure of the big 3.

i still say what about a burger king union.. they have an assembly line, work crazy hours, need health care and retirment benifits.. what about them? They are more world wide based than GM. No I do not work there, just pointing out Union flaws cause they dont care as they couldn't make enough money to help them, or we would have 20 dollar whoppers.

For decades we have all sat back and watched as the UAW went head to head with the Corp for more money, more benefits, more perks, when they all should have been listening to the consumers and building a better product. Just like an upside down pyramid with the customer at the bottom, they got too top heavy and blinded themselves to the consumer, assuming that they can tell the customers what they want instead of delivering what they asked for and when the customer walks, the whole thing topples. Can it be fixed? Yes. Should that burden be placed on the tax payers? No. All these years that the union should have been fighting to stay competitive they dropped the ball and now the workers will suffer. That is sad but it was preventable.If the GM workers want to get mad and blame somebody look to your leaders they let you down, not the customers or the tax payers. We just witnessed it and tried to warn ya'll. Good news is that together we can fix it but not by giving the corp billions of dollars. We dont have any reason to trust them anymore, we dont like it when somebody talks down their noses at us after all if it were not for the consumers their would be no need for them at all.

I have also made this comment without any opinions from others. I am not for the bailout, but if they do offer the D3 money, require stipulations with our (taxpayers) money. Require the D3 to only source parts made in the USA on autos built with the bailout money. Make this requirement to be compliant within 2 years. Think of the industry expansion that would go on trying to meet this requirement. Suppliers would be bringing in jobs back in to the US. They would need new buildings (construction), and additional management (college grads). Make the wages relevant to the business and bring back the American auto industry. We CAN reverse the flight of all of the business that has left in the last 30 years.

Imagine if Burger King had a Union.. 20 dollar Whoppers

Good job RED!!! You hit it right on!

getreal12: Yes the blame goes all around. It's like a dominoe effect. The big corporations, pharmaceutical companies, insurances, etc. all want more money, therefore driving the cost of living up for all the workers (not only GM workers) so then in turn, we need more money to make a decent living. Yet, we are not allowed to make a decent wage. Everything that goes wrong, comes down to it being the fault of the people who are finally making a decent wage. There seems to be something wrong with this picture. Yes, because of the Unions, you did have people who took advantage of the system (you know the lazy ones and the ones who were always on comp when there was nothing wrong with them). But, there were genuine hard working, grateful people who earned every penney they made. And unfortunately, because of the Union, these lazy ones still got to keep their jobs.

It appears that even the Feds know putting money in GM would be like betting the Titanic would stay afloat even though the first four water-tight compartments were already flooded. No matter what happens, at this point GM will fail. No bailout money can change the fact that GM has too much production capacity to support it’s sinking sales and the continued erosion of it’s market share. Do not blame the union. The problem is not that GM workers have been the benefactors of good union contracts. The problem is we’ve let the rest of middle class jobs go without union representation. I’ve been predicting the GM bankruptcy for the last five years. The GM executives have a lot of nerve going to Washington with a tin cup in one hand and their corporate jets on the tarmac at the airport. GM management is so far out of touch with the reality of day-to-day, working class Americans that they certainly won’t be able to manage their way out of a corporate disaster of their own making. Quite frankly I don’t think Rick Wagoner could boil water in a microwave but then why would he involve himself in such a mundane task? When I was in school we used to learn from our failures. I got an “F” once and had to face the music. My teacher didn’t change the grade. I needed to work hard to master the failed subject. The deeper subject to contemplate here is whether we want to be socialists, communists or capitalists. If we choose to continue with capitalism then we will have to get used to the idea of letting poorly run capital enterprises fail. Yea a bunch of people are going to lose their jobs but there will be plenty of new jobs elsewhere for those who are willing and able to work. Success is achieved through hard work. Businesses who isolate their leadership with obscenely huge salaries, bonuses and perks like corporate jets deserve to fail. Maybe the boards of some of these whining companies should write the definition of austerity and frugality one hundred times on the corporate whiteboard.

Our country can be a leader in more ways than just our might. We could lead the world in inovation, and in how we take care of our people. The gready companys all of them.. banks, auto, merchants, all are the modern day royallty.. with the rest of us as serfs.

it's time to let GM go bankrupt so they can reorganize and make the drastic descisions needed to survive. If they don't do it pretty quick they will flounder even with bailouts. I know nobody wants to hear it but they must get the wage package to $30 an hour and cut the retiree's loose.......... Anything short of this and they will fail.

dkush21 I agree the big corporations do have some blame in this, but at the same time how competive could GM be with the high cost of labor my question is when are GM workers going to take some of this blame? Big corporations and not the only ones to blame.

Boy some on here are showing how bitter they are for not having a profession that pays a decent wage, so they don't feel anyone should. I'm afraid I'm going to have to pass on the rest of your crazy posts. See you in the welfare line!

getreal112: Maybe you should blame the real culprits here, the big corporations are the greedy ones.

I have said this many times before, but it isn't the pay that is the big problem with the UAW. It was (most recently it has got better)the work for the pay. The UAW worker used to be underworked for the compensation. But the problem now is the frivolous contractual obligations. It is the jobs bank, it is the disciplinary procedures, it is the attendance contract, and most of all, the separate trades negotiated. All of these add up to uneffecient business deals, and add unrealistic cost to the auto that drags down the business. Do not blame the retired GM people and their pensions. These pensions were EARNED. Keep in mind, when you take a job with a company, they offer you a wage AND benefits in exchange for 40 hours of work. You wouldn't want your company to short your paycheck would you? So don't ask the company to short the pension. This should be off limits. Basic manufacturing (unskilled) does not warrant $73 an hour (wage + benefits) anymore. It should be at least half that, and if you don't like it, get an education and go for a different job. Nobody makes you work at GM. The times have changed. You do not deserve a job at GM, nor do you deserve a good paying job because you are American. You must earn your way through life, and you go were the pay is at, even if it requires an additional education. The UAW has brainwashed the membership in thinking they have a right to a good paying job. That is not true. I think the auto industry should not be bailed out or loaned any money. Let them go bankrupt if the market determines this. Just don't mess with the retired workers or their pension.

the value system is totally messed up. Why was there ever a need for SUV's. Fuel hogs and enviormentally destructive.. why? Why do we keep strugling day to day to achieve stuff?? How many of you actually spend time at a familly table.. with your spouse or childern? Yes we need technology.. but we need it with a bit of humanity.

so ANYBODY that goes to school to learn a trade shouldn't take a job that pays well?

stillgrowing1: Yes, I agree the Union is a joke now, but don't put all the blame for the Big 3 downfall on them. The big 3 got greedy so management can give themselves millions in pay and bonuses so I believe they are as much, if not moreso to blame for their own downfall. Heaven forbid if they have to give up something to keep the business going.

GM workers keep bringing up the point if we go under millions of jobs will be lost. Well thanks alot all your greed your striking your UAW, your high paying jobs for a high school education has put millions of american people out of a job. All should be ashamed of yourself and your greed. GM workers do not care about american jobs only their own.

no.. no person should make ungodly amounts of money.. that is gread and what is wrong with this country.. the world needs to take a step back and do some rethinking

my point? My point is why is it ok for one skilled profession to make $73 an hour and not another skilled profesion?

The unions have reduced management to a group that has no choice but to show up with their hands out...They need to go bankrupt so that the union folds and so that all facets of the business become about doing business again.

You are absolutely right. Unions did start out for a good cause and then Business101 came around and all they are doing now is looking how they can make more money!

'The bail out may be a loan but even banks and other institutions don't make loans to companies that are mismanaged' so why are we bailing out banks?

msleo.. your point?

If I remember my history Unions started out to make sure workers were not slaves and taken advantage of.. well in moderen times we have goverenment organiziotions to make sure that does not happen. So what are local unions for now? Gangster orginizations as they have been? Money grubbing leaches as they seem?

exfib my husband has a college degree, he is in skilled trades, he had alot of schooling for the trades he has. Just as much if not more than the hygenists I know so why shouldn't the skilled trades in the auto industry make what other skilled trades make?

And is that not what the BIG 3 are doing now? Putting their hand out.

In business 101, they teach that the purpose of any and all businesses is to make money. That requires something more than showing up with your hand out.

All the unions need to take about a 50% cut in wages and benefits and truly be on unemployment rather than the subpay and a unempolyment check that says looking for another job is waived. The bail out may be a loan but even banks and other institutions don't make loans to companies that are mismanaged or held hostage by their employees asking for money for doing nothing. Business loans are not made to companies who are essentially bankrupt already on paper. With the benefits given to the laid off workers, there is no incentive for them to get off their duff and look for work or be entrepenuerial and start their own business. That type of an attitude would do more for the economy than sitting waiting for the handout everyweek.

jonesy99 - and who will buy this new and improved product when millions from the auto industry, the retail industry, the health industry, the supply industry, the housing industry, the import/export industry and so on are all out of work and on welfare?

Just because some of these GM workers did not have a college education does not mean that they are uneducated. Some of them work very hard and deserve a good pay. And just because someone goes to college, does not mean they are well-educated either. I've have time and time again how some "educated" people have made some very stupid decisions even to a point of bankrupting their company.

Yes we need to Re-tool the auto industry.. not just the current status Quo

The problem is that GM workers are brain washed by the union. I dont think the workers even know how ridiculous their wage packages are. GM cannot be profitable ever with UAW in control. All these people go on strike even just a year ago or so for more more more they need to be taken down a peg or two let them go under and let someone else start making american cars without the UAW they get what they deserve.

Here is my answer to anyone who thinks I am GM jealous... I did not work there, You did. Your Union made deals with them, I did not. If Gm and your Union is failling you that is your problem not mine. Why do I need to give tax dollars to keep your health care and benifits while I have none?

To dkush21...I have had 3 supervisory contracts with GM. I'm not speaking from an uninformed perspective. It's unacceptable and truthfully gross, what has gone on in that plant.

My comments have been directed exclusively toward the GM situation. Uneducated people aren't supposed to earn 20+ per hour. Do they offer insightful growth potential? GM has for a long time been an entitlement program.

stillgrowing1: My husband worked at Lear and was laid off. And let me tell you he is one of the hardest working people I know. My brother-in-law worked at GM and he was another hard worker. Quit making it seem like all GM workers are not hardworking people. As far as I'm concerned, they both earned every penny they made. You want to know what hard work is? I learned from my Father who owned his own manufacturing business. He started off working 7 days a week and aprox 16 hours a day. And he made sure that I learned to work hard for my money even if he was the President of his own company. He also worked just as hard as his employees if not more. Nowadays, alot of these CEO's don't even know the meaning of hard work.

msleo, the $73.00 figure from my understanding is the number including hourly wages, health care costs, insurance, retirement costs, etc.. included. While your husband probably made $20-$25 dollars an hour, they associated costs to his employment on AVERAGE came to about $73.00 an hour (GM's number, not mine).
As far as your comments to other professions and their wages, GM's work force while skilled at what they do, is/was not a skilled profession by trade. Many workers never went past High School. Any profession in a medical field requires a college level degree. The reward for this extra education is higher wages. Thus this is the reason we tell our kids to "stay in school".

Time to let some of the wastefull companys die so new and independent ones can rise up and offer new and forward thinking ideas come forth. Like evolution the biggest did not prevail. Why keep feeding a bleeding relic, at the cost of something new and most likely better?

HAHAHA manage a profit line.. HAHAHA and they do that so well.. more money to them for thier hard and well done jobs

stillgrowing1: And there is your answer to why we are headed for RICH and POOR and no MIDDLE CLASS anymore.
Employees should shut their mouth and be happy with the wages they make now. Let our big corporations keep us at bay. We should not be aloud to make a LIVING WAGE. Oh, by the way I never worked for GM, but I still think that people should be able to afford to live. With heating and cooling, insurances, education, food, health insurance and everything else going up in price, we need to be making a good wage.

The jobs of the CEO's is to manage a profit line. The contract's have ensured that that cannot happen. It should be no concern of an hourly employee about anything except the work that is front of them.

OK> I have a question: How much of a wage/benefit/bonus cut are the CEO's of the BIG 3 willing to take?!

I have been working short days for almost half the year so far, I had to drop health care and claim exempt on my federal taxes to survive. My company is in dire times and I am not in rock county or have anything to do with GM.. who crys for me? Who crys for my fellow workers? My retirerment plan? Hahahahaha yeah right

It's time for local GM folk to take their unemployable butts elsewhere. There was so much waste in that plant.
The problem is that the people have been in there for so long, they don't know what the real working world is like.
Good luck with that.

What about just one Union.. one that just makes sure everyone gets a fair wage, and health care, a cost of living raise.. oh wait is not our goverenment supossed to do that for us? what about doing away with saleried employies unless your like the President or have a job like Fireman and on call all the time? Why so many companies have so much fat in the front offices when they do not actually contribute to something real? Why not let the auto industry die.. who will be able to buy a car anyhow. Why not only add taxes to those who make over 250,000 and drop federal taxes for those who make under 40,000? Maybe smaller comunities could become self sufficiant.. local grown, loacl labor, localaly bartered? I for one dont want my federal tax dollars spent to keep some person rich and fat when I cant even buy my childern stuff for christmas.

wyp $73 an hour? My husband works at GM and doesn't get anywhere near that!
Do you become upset with the dental hygenist who makes 20 to 40 an hour when she cleans your teeth? How about the x-ray tech who makes 25-45 an hour starting out when she adjusts the dial and pushes the button to take your x-ray, or the lab tech who also makes 25 an hour to analyze your blood? I know nurses make decent money, I have several as friends.

Why should some industries be able to pay high hourly wages but not the auto industry?

I know my husband would have. He hasn't felt that the union has had his best intrest in mind for a long time. Just their own pockets

I fully agree with you exFIB. The union and greedy workers who voted for $73.00 per hour while the rest of the country may make tops of $20.00 with benefits. Million's of workers only make 6 to 7 dollars. Now the wall have come crumbling around you and all you can say is bail me out. Most retire's in this country has no benefits after they leave. I don't understand why the big 3 has to pay out such large benefits when they leave. Oh union and workers put this into there package just like our gov officials up in Washington vote in there benefits.

I think if GM put it to a vote, the workers would rather keep their jobs, even at a lower wage, and tell the union buh-bye

Okay, just a question for all to ponder...."How much of a wage/benefits cut are the UAW workers willing to take in order to keep their jobs?" Some say they would, in no way, ever work for a Japanese car company. But, what happens when GM closes it's doors, and perhaps a Jap company opens in it's complex? Then, will they be willing to work for a non-UAW company? If so, kill the overpayment now, and try to save your gluteus maximus. Awww, never mind...too late. Let the Big 3 go.

exfib, your wrong I do like your point! I like it alot. I know of many union workers that don't like/agree with the union and would jump at that chance. But in this picture you create, will this happen before or after millions loose everything? and how many years will the working be taxed to hell and back to pay for those not working and waiting for all these new jobs?

I guess I am one of the "idiots" that you are referring to. If you "loan" somebody money and they don't have the means to pay it back and then claim bankruptcy, then that "loan" then becomes a handout and the inevitable (meaning closing up shop) still happens, the only difference is that now the the government using our tax dollars gets added to the list of creditors who get defaulted on.
I don't want anybody to lose their job, let me be clear on that. But why should I take on a fight for people who continuously abused their union and priced themselves out of a job? I have more sympathy for the supplier employees than those of the big 3.
My take on this though is that the market share lost by domestic automakers will be picked up by somebody. Most likely it will be foreign companies who will expand MORE into America and employ MORE workers who don't want the UAW representing them. Thus the chain will complete itself as those factories will need suppliers, dealerships, etc, etc. Then all the doom and gloom that was predicted will absolve itself and the American worker will live happily ever after. Just ask those Toyota workers in KY and TX, or the Subaru workers in IN, or the BMW workers in SC.
You get my point, you just don't like it!

And lastly, it shouldn't be "bailout", it should be "buyout"! If the banks or auto industry is getting money from us tax payers, WE should OWN the companies and tell them what to build or who to give loans to.
+
OK I will get off my soap box now. Like I said my hubby no longer works for GM, but I don't want my America to be full of millions of my brothers and sisters living on the street starving!!!!

How come the government is buying stock in banks and not in the auto industry. Give them the loan with the stipulation they build economical cars. one's that people will buy to insure the life of the companies.

BTW I'm not saying what the CEOs are doing is right, and I agree they did this to themselves. If the big 3 had started producing smaller cars years ago it wouldn't matter that they pay 30 an hour in wages. They would be selling their product. But we CAN'T let MILLIONS become unemployed. It would cost the taxpayers a hell of alot more than 3,700!!!!!

It's only a loan if they pay it back. No lending institution would allow a loan that is at least twice as large as the combined value of all three companies.

FIRST OFF THE AUTO IND. IS NOT GETTING BAILED OUT IT'S A LOAN. THE BANKS ARE GETTING BAILED OUT AND TAKING POSH VACATIONS!!!!!
Na lets not LOAN money to the big 3, lets just have them close up and have MILLIONS loose their jobs. Do you think it would cost the tax payers LESS? All the welfare, uninsured health bills, all the homeless with thousands of empty homes just sitin around. Sure you idiots think it's cheaper than 3,700 to support all the welfare to be handed out. If the big three go under it WILL trickle down. The electric/gas cable, phone co. will have to jack up their prices to pay for all those who can no longer pay,as well as lay off workers because no one will be paying their bills. All the retail co. that will loose and go under cuz no one will be able to buy their goods, it's the grocery stores that will close up and lay off workers cuz no one will be able to buy food. You all are IDIOTS!!! My husband USE to work for GM but was lucky enough to find a different job, but if there's MILLIONS all going for 2,3 jobs........
I pray for the 'LOAN" so that my kids will be able to find work when done with school. If my Grandma and Grandpa have to take your kids jobs what song will you be singing then? Just because YOU don't work in the auto industry doesn't mean YOU won't be paying for the downfall of the big 3. MANY of you will loose your jobs and benefits when the mass unemployement trickles down. Not to mention the THOUSANDS in taxes YOU will have to pay for all the welfare. You all need to pull your heads out of your a@@s.

Okay Momof5, say GM gets their 9 billion handout (actually 8.3 billion, but who's counting?) and they currently burn through 7 bil a quarter, the handout buys them, oh what, 3 1/2 to 4 months of cash reserves. What can GM do to possibly turn the company around in 4 months to return to profitability that it hasn't done already. Sounds like a waste of my tax dollars to me. This isn't any different than Fannie Mae giving $300,000 mortgages to people making minimum wage. If a person or company cannot afford a loan they should not get it!
On the other hand, Ford who was said they have enough reserves to make it through most of 2009 would seem to benefit the most. At least with a handout and their existing lines of credit, we know they will make at least until 2010.

BY BY don't look good and the top people go to congress in there owen jet's Hmmmmm, Jets=1,000,000 a peace or more so how about they sell all those jets and lay off the top people.

And don't forget, the average wage and benefit package for the workers bailing the car companies out is about $30 an hour. Average wage and benefit package for an employee of one of the Big 3, $73 an hour. Yeah, we all want to jump right on that train. Not!!!

Kush: again my point only is that there might have to be sacrifices made. i know of people that are collecting every month from GM and never worked there. (there spouse did, and now died) How do you expect GM to be competitive in pricing when the amount of money paid to retirees and those laid off is the most expensive part of every car that comes off the line?
Simply put they cannot compete, therefore they need to cut the retirees off for the better of the company.
If the grandparents sold their home that is paid off that should provide a good cushion for a while too. again, why do people expect so much? Who says that you deserve to have a house, cars, vacations, eating out at restaurants, etc. The rest of the world does not live like we do. They take their elderly in and care for them. You do not see Senior Living Centers in other parts of the world, or even in America until recently. Maybe we need a re-adjustment. Hopefully these economic conditions will help people see the reality of the US.

why should taxpayers bail out a company? why should the government get involved??? Again, isn't government involvement and control exactly what everyone feared during the cold war? Now it seems to me everyone is trying to become like the communists whether through government hand outs or health care. It didn't work for the Soviet Union, why do we feel like it would work for us? Are Americans seriously that arrogant??

Macdaddy: Some of these Grandparents don't have much but their homes that they worked all of their lives to pay for. Who are you to say that they should give up their possessions and home? They probably knew better than anyone now how to save money and spend it wisely. Why should they suffer because of the greed we now have?

The big talking point now is "Bail us out now or you all will suffer". This amounts to fear-mongering and extortion. The truth is that we are all suffering right now and cannot afford to bail anybody out of financial trouble.

wtp

Very good point .

exfib: it is 25 billion split between the Big 2.8. If it is all divided equally, then GM, Ford, and Chrysler would each get 9 billion. Yes, sounds like an exorbant amount of money but, in the big picture, it really is "a little cushion." It is hard for me to be against the bailout when I come from a background that leaves me little room to be unbiased. And, whether the banking bailout was the right thing to do or not, remains still to be seen.
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I for one am hoping that the bailout does go through. Doing so, I feel would force the US auto industry to do some serious revamping and restructuring. It is obvious, to me, that GM is getting the bigger picture...finally. They are cutting production of large SUVs and trucks, idling duplicate plants, trying to get their payroll and healthcare funds under control, returning excess personal jets, and focusing more efforts on hybrids, smaller cars and mid-sized sedans. Too little too late? Don't know yet. But, atleast they are trying to be both proactive and reactive all in the same right. Doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results in the definition of insanity.
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One of the stipulations, IMO, to GM from Congress should be to focus more on domestic sales and growth and less on global sales and growth. It is wonderful that there is such a need and demand abroad for SUVs, but expelling resources on global brand recognition is a very slippery slope to be skating on. I doubt Chevrolet wants to be viewed in this country like Corona is viewed in Mexico.
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I personally think GM will survive this crisis and emerger a leaner, meaner, more competitive machine. Ford will fare ok. Chrysler? Just another name for "Titanic."

GM /Unions / and Employees have caused this disaster /GM employees should have saved 100.00
from each pay check but no they spent ,and the taxpayers should not bail out any Car Company
let them suffer .

Didn't they just open a plant in Siberia or something??

My mother was Henry Traxler's secretary in the '30's. He said at the time that Janesville would regret the GM plant. Sure sounds bad now!

Thank you for not clubbing me. I am glad to see that the concept of personal responsibility has not been lost completely. Nobody wants tough economic times, but they come and we must deal with them as best as we can. Maybe they will help to bring back the concept of family. It's not that it is lost, but it has certainly taken a beating in the past few years.

i don't necessarily think grandparents need to go to work, but they might have to sell their vacation homes, extra stuff, maybe move back in with their kids, and have their kids take care of them, like it used to be 50 years or more ago. Every one seems to be so self-centered and selfish that they feel it is deserved to not have to work and have someone provide for them. The providers being the workers today or taxpayers, their families should be the one to step up and support their grandparents if they are that concerned.

In capitalism, true capitalism. You get what you earn. No free handouts!

Nice idea, but can't do it if I'm outa work as well.

It is going to be up to you to make sure that grandma and grampa don't starve.

Sorry Exfib, I meant to direct this to wtp and macdaddy.

So, what wtp and exfib are saying is that you wouldn't mind seeing senior citizens go back to work to keep from starving and possibly taking jobs away from other unemployed people. Would that make you happy to see your Gramma or Grampa busting their backs trying to keep alive. Boy, you two must be real sweathearts.

“GM just wants a little cushion to get them through tough times right now,” Sherrod said

25 billion is a "little" cushion? Mentality like this is why GM is going under.

YOU ARE SOOOO IGNORANT!!!

This is not new. For the past 40 yrs unions and there workers have demanded more and more benefits and wages to the point that they subbed there own foot and now they are crying. It is not just the auto unions who has hurt this country. Steel workers union is another example. If there never would have been unions the cost of everything would be much lower and competitive with other nations around the world. This is why it is hard for the 10's of millions of workers who work for non union companies to keep up with inflation caused by the unions.

i hope GM and all these companies go bankrupt. i believe like many others that this is the Union's undoing, and that if they go bankrupt get rid of the retirees benefits holding them back from competing in today's market they can revamp and succeed, without doing this it is like taking a bucket trying to throw water overboard on the titanic as it is sinking. Makes no sense, you have to eventually realize it is going under and there is no hope of saving the ship (GM, Chrysler, Ford).

Strange that the greedy car companies are demanding immediate bailout money or else thousands and thousands of jobs will be lost.I didn't hear them giving a hoot while moving to other countries for CHEAP labor and thousands of jobs were lost then. What hipocrites!!!They certainly need to clean house and restructure. By the way, where's that little guy with the big ears when we need him. Remember Ross P. and the "giant sucking sound?"

What about me.....I want to be bailed out

There is a culture crisis at GM, UAW, and the auto industry. The management is often demonized for flying in private jets, but time is money, and the time that is wasted flying commercial costs money. I believe that the culture needs to reflect a vested interest in the success at GM. The union representatives do not portray an attitude that demands success of the entire company, but rather an attitude of we want this or that and we deserve it. The management needs to make attitude changes also. There needs to be rewards and punitive measures for success and failures for all parties involved. The bottom line is to stop wasting money!