Citizens held as illegal immigrants
Photo 
In this photo taken on Friday, Oct. 17, 2008 detainees are shown inside a holding cell at the Northwest Detention Center in Tacoma, Wash. The facility is operated by The GEO Group Inc. under contract from U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, and houses people whose immigration status is in question or who are waiting for deportation or deportation hearings.
Pedro Guzman has been an American citizen all his life. Yet in 2007, the 31-year-old Los Angeles native — in jail for a misdemeanor, mentally ill and never able to read or write — signed a waiver agreeing to leave the country without a hearing and was deported to Mexico as an illegal immigrant.
For almost three months, Guzman slept in the streets, bathed in filthy rivers and ate out of trash cans while his mother scoured the city of Tijuana, its hospitals and morgues, clutching his photo in her hand. He was finally found trying to cross the border at Calexico, 100 miles away.
These days, back home in California, "He just changes from one second to another. His brain jumps back to when he was missing," said his brother, Michael Guzman. "We just talk to him and reassure him that everything is fine and nobody is going to hurt him."
In a drive to crack down on illegal immigrants, the United States has locked up or thrown out dozens, probably many more, of its own citizens over the past eight years. A monthslong AP investigation has documented 55 such cases, on the basis of interviews, lawsuits and documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. These citizens are detained for anything from a day to five years. Immigration lawyers say there are actually hundreds of such cases.
It is illegal to deport U.S. citizens or detain them for immigration violations. Yet citizens still end up in detention because the system is overwhelmed, acknowledged Victor Cerda, who left Immigration and Customs Enforcement in 2005 after overseeing the system. The number of detentions overall is expected to rise by about 17 percent this year to more than 400,000, putting a severe strain on the enforcement network and legal system.
The result is the detention of citizens with the fewest resources: the mentally ill, minorities, the poor, children and those with outstanding criminal warrants, ranging from unpaid traffic tickets to failure to show up for probation hearings. Most at risk are Hispanics, who made up the majority of the cases the AP found.
"The more the system becomes confused, the more U.S. citizens will be wrongfully detained and wrongfully removed," said Bruce Einhorn, a retired immigration judge who now teaches at Pepperdine Law School. "They are the symptom of a larger problem in the detention system. ... Nothing could be more regrettable than the removal of our fellow citizens."
Jim Hayes, ICE director of detention and removal, said he is aware of only 10 cases of U.S. citizens detained over the past five years. Even if combined with the cases found by the AP, "that's not an epidemic," Hayes said. He refused to identify any cases, citing privacy laws.
He added that agents investigate any claims to U.S. citizenship, but they often turn out to be false. He said U.S. citizens sometimes claim to be foreign-born, and that immigration officials never knowingly hold someone they can "definitively" determine is a citizen.
It's impossible to know exactly how many citizens have been detained or deported because nobody keeps track. Kara Hartzler, an attorney at the Florence Immigrant and Refugee Rights Project in Arizona, testified at a U.S. House hearing last year that her group alone sees 40 to 50 jailings a month of people with potentially valid claims to citizenship.
"These cases are surprisingly, painfully common," she said.
The nonprofit Vera Institute for Justice found 322 people with citizenship claims in 13 immigration prisons in 2007, up from 129 the year before. That number does not include possible citizens in the nation's more than 300 other immigration prisons.
What is clear is that immigration detentions — including those of citizens — have soared in recent years. One reason is a heightened concern for security that arose out of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Another is a political climate that encouraged a tough stance on illegal immigration, especially after Congress failed to pass immigration reform legislation almost three years ago.
After 2003, the nation launched several programs to detain more immigrants, including one that called on local police and sheriffs for help. Before 2007, just seven state and local law enforcement agencies worked with immigration. By last November, more than 950 officers from 23 states had attended a four-week program on how to root out and jail suspected illegal immigrants.
A Government Accountability Office investigation has since found that ICE did not ensure local officials properly used their authority and failed to collect data to assess the program. As a result, ICE is rewriting agreements with 67 agencies.
The program came under fire partly because it gives local officers so much leeway to decide who to stop. Almost one in 10 Hispanic adults born in the U.S. report that police or other authorities stopped them and asked about their immigration status in 2007, according to a Pew Hispanic Center survey of more than 2,000 people.
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It was a local sheriff's office that sent Guzman out of the country.
He was picked up near his home in Lancaster, Calif., on March 31, 2007, by Los Angeles County sheriff's department officers on a misdemeanor trespassing charge. He had tried three times to board a private plane, showing lottery tickets for passage on one attempt, officers said in a report. He had also stolen a car and told officers his mother's car was broken.
A judge gave him three years' probation and three months in jail for vandalism.
At the jail, Guzman told officers he was born in California, a response noted in official records. But a sheriff's employee still got Guzman to sign an agreement to leave the country without a hearing.
On the day he arrived in Mexico, Guzman called a relative to say he didn't know where he was, and asked a passer-by. The answer: Tijuana. Then the phone cut off.
Guzman was finally returned to California legally in August 2007.
Now he can no longer stand the sun because it reminds him of Mexico. His family will not let him talk about the ordeal because it upsets him. He has frequent counseling sessions, but he is shaky, stutters and seems to hear voices, according to his brother.
"He is our brother, somebody's son, that they deported," said Michael Guzman. "California is like the main capital of Latin Americans. It doesn't matter whether you are a citizen or not. If you look Hispanic, they can question you. Deportation can happen to anybody."
Neither the sheriff's office nor immigration officials would discuss the case, citing pending litigation. The family has sued Los Angeles County and the federal government.
"When the whole story is told, people will see and understand what has occurred," said Steve Whitmore, spokesman for the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office.
In the meantime, Guzman's mother, Maria Carbajal, often works the graveyard shift at a Jack in the Box because she is afraid to leave him alone during the day.
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American citizens also have been caught in the net of increased workplace arrests and jail sweeps.
Workplace arrests rose from 517 in fiscal year 2003 to 6,274 in 2008. Julie Myers, former Homeland Security assistant secretary overseeing ICE, said agents quickly sort out which workers are citizens during raids. She added that federal law, court decisions and search warrants give immigration agents the authority to enter workplaces to question everyone inside, including citizens.
But the raids have already led to several lawsuits.
In 2007, 114 U.S. citizens and permanent residents sued after a raid on Micro Solutions Enterprises, a computer printer equipment recycler in Van Nuys, Calif. They alleged illegal detention and sought $5,000 damage each.
In 2008, the union representing workers at six Swift & Co. meatpacking plants sued on behalf of eight citizens and legal residents caught up in raids.
In one case, three citizens and nine others, all Hispanic, sued after ICE agents raided their New Jersey homes as part of what was dubbed Operation Return To Sender. The lawsuit alleges that an immigration agent pulled a gun on one of the citizens, a 9-year-old boy.
A program to sweep jails and deport immigrants who have committed crimes is more popular. But critics fear the temptation is to deport anyone for anything because they are seen as bad seeds, even if they are American citizens.
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Rennison Castillo arrived early at the Seattle immigration office on Oct. 28, 1998, to take his citizenship oath. He was dressed in a freshly starched Army uniform and was eager to grab a good seat. He sat in the second row.
Born in Belize, Castillo had lived in the U.S. since he was 7 and had served two years in the Army. But his superiors told him he could not stay in the Army without citizenship. So he took the citizenship test and passed easily, missing only one question, on the name of a locally elected official.
"I felt pretty good. I felt I definitely accomplished something, because having a citizenship to the United States was something that I felt proud of," Castillo said.
Seven years later, the U.S. government locked Castillo in a Tacoma, Wash., immigration jail. He had been picked up at the Pierce County jail, where he had spent eight months for violating a restraining order and for residential burglary.
At the holding cell, an officer asked if he wanted to go home. He thought she meant his home in Lakewood, Wash. "Yes," he answered. "I'd love to go home."
She chained him up and told him he would be deported.
Over and over, Castillo said, he told officers he was a citizen. He pleaded with them to check their computer files.
But officials said nothing in their records confirmed his citizenship or his military service. One officer actually recognized Castillo from their Army days at Fort Lewis, Wash., and mentioned their battalion, but told Castillo he couldn't help.
Then Castillo saw a number posted on the wall for the Northwest Immigration Rights Project. On the group's advice, he contacted a friend who pulled his military document from the trunk of his car.
Nearly eight months after he was transferred to ICE custody, Castillo was released. He discovered that immigration officials had two files on him, with different numbers, and has since filed a lawsuit. ICE declined to comment because the lawsuit is pending.
"I understand that nothing is perfect, nothing will be perfect, but I don't understand how they could make a grave mistake like that," he said. "Because if this happened to me, I'm quite sure it's happened to somebody else. What's going to happen to the next person it happens to?"
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For Ricardo Martinez, born in McAllen, Texas, it was not being able to get back into his own country.
Even though he was a U.S. citizen, Martinez lived in Mexico between the ages of 5 and 17.
Like many border residents with family on the other side, he made frequent trips to Mexico. When he tried to return to the U.S. after a visit to Mexico in July 1999, he was turned away by border officers at Nogales, Ariz., because two copies of his birth certificate, issued years apart, had different hospital registration dates. Not proficient in English, Martinez said he had never noticed the error.
Told to get his documents in order, he got a U.S. passport and was able to get into the country. But the problem was not over.
In January 2006, he went back to Mexico to be with his dying grandmother. When he tried to cross back at Laredo, Texas, in March, he carried his birth certificates, his birth registration card, his passport and state ID cards from Nebraska, California and Texas, where he had worked.
But by that time border security had become far stricter. Agents looked up Martinez in their database and found the earlier problem at Nogales. They claimed his U.S. passport was fake, he said.
Martinez was taken to an inspection room, forced to remove his shoes, searched, handcuffed to a chair and held for two hours while officers questioned his documents, he said. He was told unless he confessed to fraud, he would be sent to prison for six to eight months, according to a court document filed in Martinez's lawsuit against the government.
"They told me if I didn't say I was from over there, they would put me in jail. I was frightened," Martinez said.
He said he asked to call his mother to help prove his citizenship, but was refused.
Martinez's stepfather, Florentino Mireles, said in a Feb. 27, 2008, affidavit that he called border inspectors to ask why they had taken Martinez's documents. The response, he said: An officer didn't believe Martinez was a U.S. citizen because he didn't speak English.
Afraid of jail, Martinez signed the papers. In an affidavit in his lawsuit, Martinez said he didn't understand that by signing he was admitting to not being born in the U.S.
It took his parents two years to find an affordable attorney. Finally, at a meeting in Hidalgo, attorney Lisa Brodyaga showed border officers a copy of Martinez' birth certificate from his parents that included his footprints and a thumbprint and tax records showing he had worked legally in the U.S. Officials agreed he was a U.S. citizen and allowed him to cross the border.
Lloyd Easterling, spokesman for Customs and Border Protection, declined comment because Martinez has sued. In court filings, the agency said Martinez denied being physically assaulted or subjected to excessive force and never filed a complaint against the officers.
Brodyaga said the cases of U.S. citizens detained or deported show more than bureaucratic bungling.
"I've been doing this for 30 years and I've seen bureaucratic bungling. This is more than that," she said. "This is an atmosphere of suspicion and hostility, particularly for Mexican-Americans on the border."
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Associated Press staff writers Traci Carl and Peter Prengaman contributed to this report.
Apr 18, 2009 at 12:27 a.m.
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Don't worry too much about being called things like "racist". Those are terms that the left and their minions have used for decades to intimidate and stifle discourse.
This type of intimidation has worked very well for those who use it. What is interesting is that the tone is changing, now more people are speaking their minds reguardless of these tactics.
I would guess that millions of citizens out of work, with hunger and homelessness on the horizon has taken the fear of this intimidation and character assassination out of many Americans.
Apr 17, 2009 at 10:49 p.m.
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Racist? Ha. no. If I were a racist, I wouldn't have a mexican half brother that I am extremely proud of nor would I go to school in West Allis where I am a minority. I give people a lot of credit that bust their humps to have a better life. I cannot tell you how many mexicans and other races live in Delavan that are illegal and brag about not being caught. PATHETIC! I cannot feel anger about an innocent man being hit and killed by an illegal immigrant?? That 16 year old Hart girl that killed a US Citizen that yes, was mexican. And everyone's first question was "was he an illgal immigrant?" Where were all of you then?? I don't remember seeing any of your names posting on that story, but oh yes, that is right, I did. It is not the fact that just because they speak spanish that I think they are illegal immigrants. It comes down to I don't care what your race is, if you are sitting there and do not try to learn English then why are you here? Period. If that is ignorance...I am fine with that.
Apr 17, 2009 at 1:20 p.m.
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THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!
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that is right this is the United States of America one of the most multi-cultural places to live, I hate to tell you but there are not just blonde hair blue eyed people living here, there are many different races, many different languages. Well I at least got a laugh out of what you posted, I find ignorance funny
Apr 17, 2009 at 1:17 p.m.
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Its pathetic that there is a town near where I live that is referred to Delawan instead of Delavan because there are so many illegal mexicans. I hate that I cannot go to the store without hearing people speaking spanish because they are here illegally and do not know any English except No comprende but it is a bunch of horse crap.
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so you assume that because they are speaking spanish they are illegal, that is a joke, my family speaks both and all are here legally. And these comments are exactly what turns this into a racist thing, this is not just about immigration issues, you are stating they make you feel uncomfortable, why because their skin is brown, or because you are so vain you just assume they are talking about you? This whole forum is ridiculous, it is easy to judge when you are not part of the race that is being bashed some of you need to take a walk in the other person's shoes and see what it feels like to be judged just based on the color of your skin.
Apr 17, 2009 at 11:17 a.m.
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Jeanette1984
What is pathetic is you feel uncomfortable because of the language someone speaks.
What is pathetic is you believe that anyone not speaking English is "illegal."
What is pathetic is the amount of racism in 2009 aimed at hispanics.
Apr 16, 2009 at 9:26 p.m.
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Its pathetic that there is a town near where I live that is referred to Delawan instead of Delavan because there are so many illegal mexicans. I hate that I cannot go to the store without hearing people speaking spanish because they are here illegally and do not know any English except No comprende but it is a bunch of horse crap. I hate how they make me feel uncomfortable in my own home town!!! Since when do we have to press "1" for English??? THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!! NOT MEXICO!!
Apr 16, 2009 at 9:15 p.m.
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This is an extremely low number of mistakes, considering the number of invaders in the United States, 20-30 million depending on who is doing the count.
Apr 16, 2009 at 3:56 p.m.
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Really, darwin? My relatives had papers. I have no clue what you're talking about.
Maybe YOUR relatives came here illegally....
Those were my German relatives. My other (American Indian) relatives were already here.
Apr 16, 2009 at 2:59 p.m.
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baybee
Illegal immigrants are an entirely different discussion/debate.
I don't believe the focus of this story was illegal immigrants but legal citizens being deported.
I have noticed this a lot lately, any story involving a person from Mexico becomes a debate about illegal immigration. Let's forget that for a moment, and ask how are we treating and talking about legal immigrants from Mexico or other Spanish speaking countries.
Apr 16, 2009 at 2:50 p.m.
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I'm just sick of illegal immigrants coming here illeally coming here and getting jobs uhhh hate to tell ya but if we wanted to go open up a dive shop and work their we couldn't, so why should they come here?! It's not fair.
Apr 16, 2009 at 2:49 p.m.
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Those comparing what the US allows to what Mexico doesn't allow...
Isn't that a good thing. Shouldn't we strive to treat everyone, including legal Spanish-speaking immigrants better than other countries?
I believe what separates us from the rest of the world is we treat people better. We don't (or didn't torture), we respect immigrants, we provide more services for the disadvantaged, etc... Yes, people take advantage and I hate that as much as anyone but that shouldn't mean we rip those who truly need it. Those trying to learn the language but maybe haven't mastered it yet. We don't lump every hispanic immigrant into one group...illegals.
That used to be what we strived for. Now, times are tough, and we just don't seem to care. $$$ rules all. How sad!
Apr 16, 2009 at 2:09 p.m.
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Who really cares what past immigrants did. They came here without papers, then they came here illegally. A truly free society should have open borders.
Apr 16, 2009 at 2:07 p.m.
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Thats correct Mikki! That was what I was tryin to say in my Wisconsin language. If I am in Mexico stumbling around brain intact or not- do you think they would care enough to run find someone who speaks my langauge? Better yet, is that particular country requiring that their government learn English for all of the American citizens sneaking in their country to work, buy land, buy houses, have babies, get government assistance, commit crimes etc.. VERY DOUBTFUL!! We make it too easy to get in, and now we are making it too easy to stay!!
Apr 16, 2009 at 1:58 p.m.
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Bubs, why the quotation marks? I like them. I can put them wherever I want. It's America. LOL. I actually found it interesting that you picked apart my post, but couldn't even get it right who you were addressing in your reply. Classic!
When my great grandparents came here, they were proud to learn English, and struggled to do so. They were proud of America. They didn't expect the government to provide workers to speak their language.
Apr 16, 2009 at 1:56 p.m.
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Bubs- whatever! Maybe take a break..lol
Apr 16, 2009 at 1:51 p.m.
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Spelling police? I would think that someone so concerned about Spanish speakers in America would want to use English as well as possible and would understand why others might want to point out improper usage.
Apr 16, 2009 at 1:40 p.m.
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ooops- mis spelled considered..Before the spelling police arrive!
Apr 16, 2009 at 1:37 p.m.
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Bubs- I totally understand what you are saying..I guess we all have our opinions. No, there is not any easy answers on some of this, but ceratinly there is on others. Yet now a couple are just comparing apples to oranges..Canadian, French, "deaf"..(PS Most deaf people can write)..We could go back and forth all day.. Yet if I move to Japan, I know I would need to know the language. Im not even gonna get in the whole "Indian" debate.. Yet alot of "illegals" come to the U.S.- have children who are then condidered US citizens, when I believe they should not be.. Again you take your butt down to mexico and try to get some financial help, land etc..Or do you think if I have a child on their soil, that my child would then be considered Mexican? NO. I will stop now and say lets just agree to disagree, because we have all had this debte numerous times before. We can change the wording, the scenario and the players- yet not the outcome it seems.
Apr 16, 2009 at 1:23 p.m.
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whythink brought up something that I was going to bring up anyways. I live in Southern Wisconsin but I don't speak Algonquin, despite that fact that they were here "first." The Western U.S. was part of Mexico before it was part of the U.S. (I used to live just north of the old border in Idaho!), which could give Spanish speakers more of a claim to linguistic dominance in that part of the United States.
Puerto Rico is one of our many territories with stronger roots in a language other than English, yet they are American nationals and citizens.
Some deaf people don't speak English (ASL is grammatically and syntactically distinct from English) and our government requires us to have bilingual workers (English and ASL) to accommodate them. Are non-English speaking deaf people less American than the rest of us? Would posters such as Mikki and whoanellie find it acceptable to deport deaf American citizens because they aren't able to easily communicate with English speaking law enforcement or didn't know how to prove their citizenship?
Apr 16, 2009 at 12:43 p.m.
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Mickie
I believe the people most impacted by the invasion of this land are the Native Americans and Hispanics who had their land taken from them years ago.
Yes, the hispanics now "invading" our country are in reality, just RETURNING HOME!
Apr 16, 2009 at 12:40 p.m.
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Sorry Bubs- guess I misread your post..?. To other points brought up..Guess we are not speaking of French,Canadian, etc.. I think whatever Country you are going to live in legally or not, it is the person(s) making the move that need to know the lingo.. I also believe that our Nation is and has been greatly affected by this "invasion".. If someone is living here and at the very least knows of the basics in our language-then things like this may not happen..But if we are speaking of a handful of cases, where person are mentally ill etc..Then i would guess alot of other countries have some characters of ours..But I doubt they would take the time to even ship them back.
Apr 16, 2009 at 12:06 p.m.
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Question:
If we were dealing with Candadian immigrants that speak French instead of English would we care? What I mean is, if the immigrants looked like you, meaning lilly white, would it matter that they can't speak the language? Just wondering if this is about more than immigration, language, jobs...is it really all about racism?
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that is a very good question i cant wait to see the answers
Apr 16, 2009 at 12:05 p.m.
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Not only is it a bounus to know Spanish, but it generally offers more pay too..Why
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it is along the same lines of if you have more education you also get paid more. for myself at home english is our first language but we also speak spanish and my children the 3yr old can speak both languages and understands them as well my 15 month old does not speak much of anything yet but she can understand both languages, and for me i think i am just teaching them another thing in life that will be useful to them when they are older, not only is this part of their heritage but they will be able to get a job that pays more because they are bilingual
Apr 16, 2009 at 11:46 a.m.
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bubs, I am with you.
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Remember, we don't have a National Language.
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People who arrive here legally, some because they are transferred, may not need to know the language or learning our language may take some time. Seriously, if learning a second language took a week this wouldn't be an issue but it doesn't.
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Just stop and think about this... A US citizen was deported from the US and the question is, "does he even speak the language?" Come on people, a legal US citizen was deported that is the problem.
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Question:
If we were dealing with Candadian immigrants that speak French instead of English would we care? What I mean is, if the immigrants looked like you, meaning lilly white, would it matter that they can't speak the language? Just wondering if this is about more than immigration, language, jobs...is it really all about racism?
Apr 16, 2009 at 11:39 a.m.
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Mickie,
I apologize for the Mickie/Mikki confusion, obviously my previous post was intended for Mikki.
You did nothing to disprove/refute my post. What part did you find hogwash?
I stated that it is not a requirement of American citizenship to speak English, you rant about the fact that some employers (logically) see it beneficial to have a certain number/percentage of employees who speak Spanish, a growing primary and secondary language in our country.
You feel that people who come to our country should learn our language. Good for you; it is not a legal requirement. I do think that Spanish-speaking immigrants should learn a bare minimum of English (many already do) but with the preponderance of Americans who speak Spanish and English, it is not illogical to lack fluency in English in many parts of the United States. How does someone speaking Spanish rather than English affect you? What does it have to do with them being an American (i.e. caring about things like freedom and equality?)?
Apr 16, 2009 at 9:33 a.m.
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Bubs- although your post was not intended for me, I would like to say this..HOGWASH. Our Government, employers etc.. want us to learn Spanish because that is somehow becoming our second language. Have you filled out a job application in the past few years?? Not only is it a bounus to know Spanish, but it generally offers more pay too..Why? Because the United States is employing so many that are spanish speaking, because they will work for much less on the dollar. I feel if you come here, illegally or not- you learn our language!! You think I am gonna go bumble around down yonder and not speak their langauge?? Our Country is becoming Spanish, we might as well just open the borders if we are actually not ever going to really stop it- anyone just comes in anyways, and mostly illegally. Also with HUGE health risks etc... So maybe legalize the whole dang thing so we can properly screen etc..
Apr 16, 2009 at 9:11 a.m.
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Mickie,
Why the quotation marks? This is a news story. American citizens were deported. American citizens are not required to speak English. They aren't even required to be able to speak English.
The government finds it beneficial to have bilingual speakers because many great American citizens and legal guest workers don't speak English (or at least don't speak it well).
I would like to commend you for managing to make one factual statement in your post that I can agree with, this IS America!
Apr 15, 2009 at 7:25 p.m.
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Mickie....well said.
Interesting....illegals can come here and enjoy more benefits than our citizens even can.
Pathetic.
Yet the "story" is that someone is "deported" who is a citizen? Did the person even speak English?
I would like to know why our government is mandated to have bilingual workers! This is America!
Apr 15, 2009 at 10:10 a.m.
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This is an issue that will make many people mad, all good comments so we need to get this figured out somehow. I could say more but ya know Latinmami2 has already accused me of being racist before so I will keep my comments to myself. But I will say I agree with Micki and SG, OOPS put myself out there.
Apr 15, 2009 at 9:04 a.m.
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elly- yes if you would of read my previous posts i am american and because of comments like yours is why people take offense over asking for documentation. you said you are tired of this story and others like it but yet you seem to take the time to read it and comment on it, really does not make that much sense to me
Apr 15, 2009 at 7:52 a.m.
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SG & MICKIE....I agree with both of you. It seems just because us "American's" want to enforce rules we are somehow the bad guys. I am thinking that somewhere there is a guilty conceince, (sp) and that is why our country has been so easy on this subject. Our country truly needs to love it's own and stop caring what other countries think of us. It's time to be selfish.
Apr 15, 2009 at 7:16 a.m.
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Exactly SG- American citizens can do very little in Mexico but visit and spend money on basically souvenirs! Cant get land, a house, goverment help, healthcare etc..etc.. BUT they can here, and on most accounts illegally.
Apr 15, 2009 at 6:59 a.m.
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National I.D. cards with biometric identifiers. No card, no work, no driving, no housing, no medical care.
Tough stuff, but our country has been invaded. It's the only term for the immense influx of foreigners here without proper documentation.
It is far more difficult to enter Mexico, or work there, or live there, that it is to do so in the States. Try to buy a house there-against the law.
How is it that if we apply rules governing ALL immigrants, we are somehow racist, and oppressing Latinos?
Wake up, America-while there's still time.
Apr 14, 2009 at 11:24 p.m.
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Just out of curiosity, I wonder if Mexico ever publishes stories like this about the mistreatment of Americans in their country? I am siding with No.
Apr 14, 2009 at 11:24 p.m.
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It's Islam you should fear not hard working immigrants from the South.
Apr 14, 2009 at 11:23 p.m.
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ELLY, I agree with what you say about the over and over again sob stories, although I would have phrased it a bit 'nicer'. lol.
Apr 14, 2009 at 11:21 p.m.
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THis is a heart wrenching story of a human being. Although this man went through terrible ordeal, I can help but realize that the fight of illegal immigrants makes for a not so black and white procedure. It is terrible, but understandable. I wish this man well. It sounds as if his mind has been through a lot! :(
Apr 14, 2009 at 10:04 p.m.
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Me thinks there is a lot of hate and discontent on this here blog -eh
Apr 14, 2009 at 9:23 p.m.
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Latinmami2- thanks for noticing and acknowledging that I am still able to add my two cents. I am still an American citizen, I think? Maybe I should ask you if I still have the right to do that or not, you being all knowing and Latina
Apr 14, 2009 at 7:57 p.m.
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that was a good post dr talk, you do always have something interesting to read.
Apr 14, 2009 at 7:36 p.m.
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darwin1,
I'll defend you again. While I didn't find anyone on this page call you a socialist, someone did elude to you being friends with a communist. I don't think that was appropriate. But you need to understand that if in turn you call him a fascist, you're not helping your argument any. I'm trying to be nice to you about the whole definition stuff. It helps to define what you mean when you're making an argument (Just don't use rhetorical definitions). That way both interlocutors are on the same page. Have a nice day. And God Bless you. (I'm being serious, I'm praying for you. I'm also praying that I learn some humility because I think that I've been a bit harsh on you. Nothing against you personally, I can just get a bit carried away in debate and end up creating ad hominem abusive arguments.)
Apr 14, 2009 at 7:17 p.m.
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darwin1,
OK, I'm going to defend you a little bit here:
"Much of this started because the righteous-right people throw the word socialist around like it is some kind of derogatory name." --darwin1
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If they are misusing it, then I can see how it can be derogatory. But if they're using it to apply to someone who agrees with socialist ideas(e.g. universal health care, redistribution of wealth) then it's being applied correctly.
Apr 14, 2009 at 6:54 p.m.
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darwin1,
Definitions just aren't your friend.
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Republicanism: the principles or theory of republican government
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You're right, you didn't use the word republic, but Republicanism deals with the principals of a republic. I gave you the definition of republic but it didn't mention anything about a strong federal government. In fact, strong federal governments are to the left of the political spectrum. If you read the constitution, which says we have the right to republican form of government, it's about limited federal government.
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darwin1: "Hitler said you had to have the Churches, the media and the military on your side. Now who does this sound like to you?"
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Let's see...The the liberal media would be on the side of those on the left, the conservative media would be on the side of those on the right, liberal churches would be on the side of those on the left, conservative churches would be on the side of those on the right, and presidents on both sides of the political spectrum have used the military.
Apr 14, 2009 at 6:04 p.m.
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elly - you must not hate it that much since you bothered to come on here and throw your two cents in anyways lol
Apr 14, 2009 at 5:51 p.m.
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If I have to read one more sob story about immigrants or illegal immigrants in the Janesville Gazette, or any other paper in the United States of America I will lose my mind! There are U.S. citizens born and raised here that do not have food or a home and have been accused of being something they are not over and over again. It is becoming unbearable to have illegal immigration shoved down my throat day in and day out. They are breaking the law, I don't feel sorry for them. STOP
Apr 14, 2009 at 5:04 p.m.
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Much of this started because the righteous-right people throw the word socialist around like it is some kind of derogatory name. So, I started referring to them as fascists and Nazis which apparently the Gazette does not allow the use of. Is it hyperbole. Yes it is.
However, if you have ever read Mein Kampf you might notice a striking similarity between the tactics Hitler called for in creating a modern revolution and the tactics used by the Conservatives in this country. In words, Hitler said you had to have the Churches, the media and the military on your side. Now who does this sound like to you?
Apr 14, 2009 at 3:17 p.m.
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the difference our comments were not banned yours were
Apr 14, 2009 at 2:52 p.m.
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That was me. No, I don't like your name calling. As I said in another post, I think you and Darwin can exchange e-mail addresses or phone numbers and handle this idiocy on your own time...
Apr 14, 2009 at 1:28 p.m.
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probably because you two are being childish in your debate
Apr 14, 2009 at 12:45 p.m.
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children to your corners how about you two agree to disagree before you get the forum shut down for your nonsense
Apr 14, 2009 at 11:45 a.m.
Apr 14, 2009 at 11:23 a.m.
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DrTalk, can you read. I never used the word Republic once - not once. Republicanism as in the founding of the Republican party is based on the proposition of a strong federal government as opposed to states rights.
Way to avoid the other issues by nitpicking on a word that doesn't exist in my post.
Apr 14, 2009 at 11:15 a.m.
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I agree.
Apr 14, 2009 at 10:54 a.m.
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It is not racist, it is legal.
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asking for the papers not a problem, it is a problem when someone says they are going to assume every latino is illegal unless proven otherwise.
Apr 14, 2009 at 10:43 a.m.
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When we are in other countries occasionally we are asked to show papers that we are visiting and not there illegally, I don't know why it such a problem to prove you are a citizen here. It is not racist, it is legal. If I'm in a public place and people are there speaking spanish I wonder if they are here leagally or taking jobs away from americans. Just speak english for heaven sake. If I were in Mexico or other spanish speaking countries, I would have to speak spanish because that is the language of their country. English is ours,learn it. latinmama we can tell you are from here, as you are very articulate in your writing and probably in your speech too. How else are we to know and not question? And it is our right to question anyone, regardless of race. It is the law of the land.
Apr 14, 2009 at 9:05 a.m.
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Back to the article folks.
The article states deporting US citizens is illegal; How many illegal aliens are caught in the California/Arizona/Texas area and say.." I was born in CA/TX/AZ."? Most of them. Illegal immigration is just that;ILLEGAL. LEOs made a mistake in offering the deportation papers? No, this guy signed the papers and he had the faculties to claim residency, but also claims insanity?
The argument I hear most now, that is FOR this illegal immigration, states that these illegals are only trying to make life better for their families. Guess what? I could make life better for my family too, in many ways, but many of those ways are ILLEGAL so I do not do them.
Apr 14, 2009 at 6:23 a.m.
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Let me clarify something on my last post: Their actions will define where they are on the political spectrum.
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darwin1,
Hopefully you understand now that you can't define things the way you want to define them. Well, you can, but you created a rhetorical definition of Republicanism. You also created a straw man. See definitions below.
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rhetorical definition:
A definition used to convey or evoke an attitude about the defined term and its denotation; such definitions often make use of images with positive or negative emotional associations.
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straw man:
A type of fallacious reasoning in which someone ignores an opponent's actual position and presents in its place a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of that position.
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Definitions were taken from "Critical Thinking" by Brooke Noel Moore and Richard Parker
Apr 14, 2009 at 4:54 a.m.
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darwin1,
I know exactly what a Republic is, but since you continue to have definition problems, let me define it for you:
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Republic: a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
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All those things that you describe are left-wing. Don't be deceived by the names of the parties; their actions will define them. Both parties have overstepped their authority. Both parties have moved further to the left.
Apr 13, 2009 at 7:37 p.m.
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if you want my take on this topic im gonna say that it is NOT ok to ask someone to identify themselves to prove they are citizens. you will offend more people than you will help. i also think that we should issue drivers licenses to illegals. they are here anyways...why not document as many as possible until we can figure out how to reduce the number??
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thank you for your comment. I am glad to hear your point on something. The driver's license thing would probably be a good idea, and it would help track people better. The irs will issue ITIN numbers to illegal immigrants to help do some tracking and this number can also be used to open a bank account. It is actually something that is strange because an illegal immigrant who has no social can apply for this ITIN number and file taxes, open a bank account, but it does not give them permission to work. This is for all races not just latinos
Apr 13, 2009 at 7:20 p.m.
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This is rather laughable- the focus here is entirely on latin heritage, which is a red herring.
It's more of a classist issue.
Head on up to UW Madison and venture forth into any biotech lab. You can go to the UW web site and look though the ethnic makeup of some of the UW's top scientists- I would venture to say 25% or more are IMMIGRANTS. Meaning born and educated outside of the US, and immigrating here as valued and paid contributors to the world of research.
Even MORE shocking... some of them come here and have CHILDREN!
Yet, I have never heard anyone derailing the immigrant students and professors for having "anchor babies"..wonder why that is.
Seems to me the view in Rock county is that every immigrant is latino, ill educated, and illegal.
Here's news- whatever corporation you work for, whatever you buy, whatever you read or take as medicine- is either foreign owned, partially foreign owned, or will be soon.
Immigration is not something the average American should be worried about. We should be about educating our children so they can compete with desperately poor yet better educated generations in a global setting.
Poverty is a powerful motivator, and prejudice is a crippling anchor to prosperity.
Apr 13, 2009 at 6:56 p.m.
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Dr Talk, do you know what your talking about? Do you know what Republicanism is? Go down your list and ask yourself. Who does this sound like? Illegal wiretapping, torture, referring to the left as traitors, stripping citizens of their citizenship and denying due process in the name of the state? Maybe in your little fantasy world this doesn't sound like the Republican party, but it is the Republican party.
Apr 13, 2009 at 6:04 p.m.
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i actually know lots of other topics. i just dont care about lots of other topics. im not afraid of the comments latinmami. your judgements dont offend me. i know who i am and so do my kids and that is ALL i need to sleep at nite. i post the comments, talk about my usage and air my CLEAN laundry to show that when you make a judgement based on the fact that anyone smokes pot its just as ignorant as making an assumption based on the color of ones skin. i am a repsonsible pot smoker. there are millions like me. i am the rule. not the exception to the rule. my ex novia was mexican born in america so ive seen some of what you go thru. by no means does that mean ive experienced it myself and i would never in a million years compare the ignorant racism you go thru to the ignorant stereotypes im trying to dispel with my passion for pot. but make no mistake latinmami, one IS just as ignorant as the other....
if you want my take on this topic im gonna say that it is NOT ok to ask someone to identify themselves to prove they are citizens. you will offend more people than you will help. i also think that we should issue drivers licenses to illegals. they are here anyways...why not document as many as possible until we can figure out how to reduce the number??
Apr 13, 2009 at 5:48 p.m.
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yea that is not even it, you are comparing apples to oranges, you never post about anything other than your pot, this article has nothing to do with pot it is about illegal immigrants. do you not have any other knowledge in another topic is that why that is all you talk about. you have nothing else to say. everyone gets it kid you are passionate about your pot that is your whole world. i am not picking on you as a person either i commented on a habit you chose to do even though it is illegal if you don't want comments on it then don't air your dirty laundry
Apr 13, 2009 at 5:34 p.m.
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being illegal and admitting to using it DOES NOT give you the right to judge those of us who use it. based on that logic, racism at one time was ok. its all good...you dont really have to answer my question i KNOW why one judgement is ok and the other is not...its cuz one affects YOU and the other doesnt
Apr 13, 2009 at 5:19 p.m.
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are you wanting to judge me for being latina which i have no control over? you are upset about people judging you for smoking a drug that is number one illegal and number two you openly admit to doing it? There is a difference between these, one is something you chose to do and if you don't want people commenting on it then don't blast it all over the internet that you do it, being latina is not a choice that is my culture my race my family.
Apr 13, 2009 at 4:55 p.m.
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yer like the latin version of gfan. why cant you just answer my question?? why is it ok for you to judge me but someone else cant judge you??
Apr 13, 2009 at 4:38 p.m.
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darwin1,
You're having definition problems again.
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"Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"
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Centralized government headed by a dictatorial leader? That's left of center, not right of center. It cannot be applied to Republicans like you did. The further to the right you go, the less government there is. The extreme far right is anarchy. The further to the left you go, the more government there is. The extreme far left is communism. Fascism is left-wing, not right.
Apr 13, 2009 at 4:21 p.m.
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swiss i never said anything to you until you bashed what i was posting and that was over a month ago so get over yourself.
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for the kid if you want to compare being bashed for smoking weed and racisim have at it but i really don't think they are the same thing
Apr 13, 2009 at 4:19 p.m.
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so it hurts your feelings that someone calls you a pot head, well then i am sorry if i anything i have said about your open to public pot smoking offended you, but i am not sure that is the same as someone driving by my yard when my kids are playing and yelling illegals. i am sure you will be okay and won't need much counseling over the pot remarks.
Apr 13, 2009 at 4:12 p.m.
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latinmami ive admitted more than enough about being a pot head. im aware this isnt about drugs. why can you not just answer my question. why is it ok for you to judge, or stereotype, those of us who smoke pot but someone else cant stereotype you because your skin is darker??
Apr 13, 2009 at 3:55 p.m.
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If someone has an opinion other than what you have, you bash them. That was what I was saying before, then you turned it into a name calling blog.
Apr 13, 2009 at 3:52 p.m.
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Another lazy Republican who doesn't know what communist or fascist means. Imagine that.
Apr 13, 2009 at 3:06 p.m.
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that is a very good point, half my family is darker skinned and dark hair other half lighter skinned and lighter hair so half get picked on half does not
Apr 13, 2009 at 3:04 p.m.
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first off swisschick was not dissing your heritage in fact i am dumb because i did not think of your name as letting me know you were swiss so calling you a piece of cheese had nothing to do with your heritage, and the reason i called you a piece of cheese is because the very first thing you posted was bashing me so get over your self and stop crying already
Apr 13, 2009 at 2:32 p.m.
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Excellent point, bubs.
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Apr 13, 2009 at 2:29 p.m.
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Huh. . . The biggest defender here comes from someone who on a regular basis refers to me as "Swisschicken" and "Swisscheese". Who is slamming someone's heritage now?
Apr 13, 2009 at 2:16 p.m.
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I am a natural born citizen who is half-Mexican and half-European but have light brown hair, hazel eyes, relatively light skin, and am over six feet tall (all physical traits that people tell me don't match my heritage). Should I be harassed and constantly asked to prove my citizenship because of my heritage or do I get to skirt such harassment because my skin is "white"?
Apr 13, 2009 at 2:09 p.m.
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It wouldn't bother me so much that there are SO many illegals here, if they would just speak and understand passable ENGLISH. Actually, I work with someone who has been here for over 30 years, is a citizen, and still speaks in such broken english you can't even understand what is being said. Beyond frustrating.
Apr 13, 2009 at 1:57 p.m.
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Darwin1, were you hanging out at another communist movement meeting with your budy Stalin again? Facist, Please...And thanks again for re-affirming why I vote republican.
Apr 13, 2009 at 1:44 p.m.
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it really is a hard situation all the way around for everyone. I want my kids to grow up and love who they are and their culture and their language and everything like that. I want them to love America it is their home. I wish there was a way to sheild them from the hurtful things people will say to them just based on their race but the only thing I can do is teach them that those people are ignorant.
Apr 13, 2009 at 1:40 p.m.
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latinmami its NO dift than assuming im a certain person because i smoke pot. you can judge but others cant now?? thats fair.
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this has nothing to do with drugs or your fancy smoke. good lord is there anything you can post about aside from smoking? And are you telling me you are not a pot head?
Apr 13, 2009 at 1:26 p.m.
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The illegal alien situation, despite stricter enforcement on the southern border continues to be a serious problem. It not only has a very serious impact of funding for education, medical, social services, social security, and law enforcement it also poses a serious threat to our national security. Currently it is estimated that there are 12 to 20 million illegal aliens in the United States. Just that estimation figure indicates that no one knows how serious the problem has become.
Apr 13, 2009 at 1:22 p.m.
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Obviously, there is no quick and easy, one size fits all, solution to the problem of the illegal immigrants who are already here. I can certainly see how it could be offensive to any American citizen to have their citizenship called into question, especially for those native born Americans.
But the flip side to this is, the problem of illegal immigrants should be JUST as offensive to all legal citizens, regardless of ethnicity. In many, if not most, cases it isn't. At least it doesn't appear to be the case from my perspective.
Apr 13, 2009 at 1:12 p.m.
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latinmami its NO dift than assuming im a certain person because i smoke pot. you can judge but others cant now?? thats fair.
Apr 13, 2009 at 1:11 p.m.
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This just one more in a long history of immigrant scares. The fact that many Latin American immigrants get here illegally is not a reason to fear them any more than there was a good reason to fear the Irish or the Italians or the (comparatively very few) Chinese. Yet time and again this anti-immigrant hysteria erupts. It would be hilarious if the results weren't so frequently tragic, because there is hardly a person in the US who is not descended themselves from immigrants. The United States has had a significant Hispanic population from the early 19th century onward. It is possible to be an eighth or tenth generation Hispanic American.
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Sure, people couch their concern in terms of jobs, or taxes, or crime, but the simple fact remains that this is not an actual emergency requiring drastic action, like a pirate rescue. We have enforcement mechanisms and they work so efficiently, as this article shows, that sometimes they even sweep up the wrong people. The more urgent people require the enforcement to be, the more mistakes will be made.
Apr 13, 2009 at 12:56 p.m.
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This is another one of those issues that people have become deluded over. The idea that a citizen can be held without due process demonstrates how the fascist Republicans have been able to frame the issue and undermine our Constitution. Everyone has the right to due process irregardless of citizenship because that is what liberty and freedom are about. Otherwise why would anyone want to come here?
Evidently people like to talk about defending freedom and liberty, they just don't like to actually do it.
Apr 13, 2009 at 12:36 p.m.
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Maybe it is just the way people say it that is offensive, it sounds rude, ignorant and racist.
Apr 13, 2009 at 12:33 p.m.
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if you are here legally or born in American i feel it really should not be that hard to prove it, since it is already an obvious issue i say people should just always be prepared. Maybe there should be some type of ticket you would get if you are suppose to have a visa or something like that and can't provide the info. But the whole let's just assume the brown race is illegal is not okay
Apr 13, 2009 at 12:30 p.m.
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latinmami--How is the government supposed to crack down on it without identifying the illegals that are creating the problem? In order to identify these people they would have to profile them. As I said in my previous post if I was a citizen in a country that had an influx of blond haired/blue eyed illegals, I would have no problem showing my drivers license to the police when asked. The quicker this problem is resolved the better it will be for the citizens of our country......To say that asking for identification is a violation of the 14th amendment is laughable.......
Apr 13, 2009 at 12:10 p.m.
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I agree with you, latin.
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I wonder, regardless of your race, would anyone here have a problem if they were stopped and asked for proof of their citizenship?
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Is it, or should it be illegal for the authorities to ask? Should you be deported/detained if you can't provide the documentation?
Apr 13, 2009 at 12:06 p.m.
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There really is not any reason to just assume someone is illegal until proven different. That would be the same as me assuming every white person is part of the klu klux klan just because they are white. Sounds ignorant. There are a lot of illegal people here that I know, but I don't want to walk down the street with my kids and have people yell go back to your country when this is my country, that has happened and it is horrible and not something that I like explaining to my children but I have to because people just want to ASSume that because the skin is darker you must be here illegally. I agree the government needs to crack down on illegals but I should not have to be punished and neither should anyone else for that matter while the government is trying to get their act together
Apr 13, 2009 at 11:57 a.m.
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The truth is hard for some. "Just yesterday, I read a posting in a Gazette blog where the writer said he/she will assume all Latinos are illegal aliens until proven otherwise."
The statement was about an indivual who had ran a red light, hit a motorcyclist, drove away and was followed and arrested. This individual had 12 violations on record, many driving after revocation, etc.
The statement made that this m.o. was typical of illegal invaders and the author would assume that this individual was an illegal invader untill proven otherwise.
Got an agenda?
Apr 13, 2009 at 11:51 a.m.
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14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, Section 1: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Denying a citizen entrance to the country because of the color of their skin is illegal.
Requiring citizens to prove citizenship because of the color of their skin is illegal.
The actions against the citizens that are detailed in this story are illegal.
The officers need retraining at a minimum, and some even firing.
Apr 13, 2009 at 11:42 a.m.
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I agree with RAF. I do have a question about your earlier post, though. It was my understanding that Justice Ginsberg cited international law when ruling on a case regarding torture...not immigration. I know your post isn't saying that it was immigration, I was just wondering if she had used international law in regards to immigration rulings.
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Honestly, RAF, I can respect both Justice Robert's and Justice Ginsberg's arguments. Let's face it, despite how far we've come, our country is relatively young. I do think that while our circumstances/issues right now do not directly mirror another countries past experiences, I do think that there are similarities that may be considered. To base one's entire opinion on another countries law would be deplorable, and I don't think we've seen that behavior in our own USSC, yet.
Apr 13, 2009 at 11:25 a.m.
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"Why should I be treated any different than my white neighbor down the street?"
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You shouldn't. Until politicians and those that are in the position to enforce this nations laws begin doing their jobs this will only get worse.
Apr 13, 2009 at 11:17 a.m.
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Well I can tell you as a latina who is here legally as is my husband and the rest of my family it is a little offensive, I was born here and so were my children and my husband. I totally understand why people will think it is okay and want to ask people who are latino to provide documentation. But at the same time when you are born and raised in Wisconsin and have done nothing wrong it stinks to have to pay for other people's crimes and mistakes based on your race. Why should I be treated any different than my white neighbor down the street?
Apr 13, 2009 at 10:55 a.m.
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SarahB1.....We need to secure our borders. I see no problem with asking Latino people to provide documentation in an effort to verify their citizenship. We have a serious problem with illegals in this country, and we need to stop being so politically correct when attempting to deal with it.......If I was legally in a country that had an influx of blond haired/blue eyed illegals sucking it's social programs dry, I would have no problem with carrying a driver's license to prove my citizenship. It's the people that are breaking the law that would have a problem with it......
Apr 13, 2009 at 9:36 a.m.
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Immigration is the perfect chance for Justice Ginsburg who thinks the supreme court should cite foreign law to begin citing what other countries do to people who cross their borders illegally; yet ours is full of holes. My guess is her answer on this will be silence.
Apr 13, 2009 at 6:48 a.m.
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Obviously, our system is not working. Just yesterday, I read a posting in a Gazette blog where the writer said he/she will assume all Latinos are illegal aliens until proven otherwise. I don't know what the answer is, but that is just not right.
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