Liberals are obsessed with demonstrating their putative "moral superiority." Thus even though they live their lives without really helping anyone, the political activism they engage in is dedicated to convincing themselves that they are truly good people. Liberals are driven by the need to validate the unspoken assertion that "I care more than you do," which is ironic in the extreme since none of the government programs liberals have designed can be shown to have an overall positive influence in our society.

fool, where did it say wealth or money? Property? Your money is actually owned by the government, you use it as a medium of exchange. Also, notice "life" is first. This means, fool, that life is more important than property

FOTH, loved the salon.com link. Paglia put into words the very concerns I hold about this health care plan (or lack thereof).

That dastardly director of the congressional budget office has done it again. This time he says the increased preventative health care recommended by those pushing for health care reform (oops health insurance reform) will end up increasing spending not lowering it…

“Although different types of preventive care have different effects on spending, the evidence suggests that for most preventive services, expanded utilization leads to higher, not lower, medical spending overall.” Doug Elmendorf, Director of the CBO.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc1049...

From the 14th Amendment: "...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."

OK, Constitutional Scholar Darwin, I've shown you the part that protects wealth. Now show me part about health.

toaty2k, that is all it will ever be is a pipe dream. The Constitution doesn't protect wealth it protects life and health is about life. Sadly, you are like many Americans who dream of becoming rich though their educational level and reality are a canyon apart. You remind me of the couple who won the lottery but kept repeating that they earned it.

Under our current system, if anyone in your family becomes seriously ill or injured everything you have worked for will be taken away. You could end up being rich but dying in an ER waiting for someone to care for you.

fool_on_the_hill, thanks for the link to the Camille Paglia editorial. I have to say I'm in agreement with most of what she says. This health care issue is really hurting Obama. My concern though is that most of the criticism (see below) of the Obama plan are way off point and blatant fear mongering. I mean what does abortion, euthanasia, and socialism have to do with it? At least Paglia can criticize it intelligently.

toasty2k, I know many people like you who are now retired and collecting social security and Medicare, and they rely on those services because they didn't make squat in their careers (or didn't save up). Funny thing is, they still think like you do. I think it's great you have aspirations, but odds are (90% or greater) that you too will be on the government dole someday.

Thunderous applause, toasty2k!

Every pro-reformer and loyal Democrat should read what Camille Paglia has to say about the subject of this blog.

If you don't already know who she is, Paglia is a card-carrying Democrat whose political ideology is harder to nail down --a sort of quasi-libertarian quasi-liberal in my book. She hasn't a drop of lemming blood and is never shy about defending Sarah Palin or ripping Nancy Pelosi a new one when appropriate.

If you are not afraid to hear strong criticism from an Obama supporting Democrat who can't be dismissed as "just another Republican wingnut", then read read "Obama's Healthcare Horror": http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009...

Darwin1 hates people like me. An average person with a family and most importantly with a dream to be successful. I work hard and try to provide as much as possible for my family. I hope one day to make a lot of money so my family is well taken care of. But the moment I achieve that dream, people like him want to punish me for living the American Dream. People like him feel I should have to pay more taxes and pay for others who just want to live off whatever they can get. I like to donate and volunteer for community service, but to people like him that isn't good enough. One day I hope to be that successful and I will succeed by making sure Darwin and his communist buddies are stopped by others like me who just want to live the American Dream in a free to choose society.

Proartist.....Did you happen to click on the link I posted? The pro-reform/pro-Obama SEIU members jumped and beat the hell out of an anti-reformer that was simply handing out flags to those that wanted them........Now that is unacceptable and goes to show to what lows these people will sink to when they don't get their way........

Back to topic...when dissenters were able to get out of the "free speech zones", Bush's Secret Service arrested (and strip-searched) people with Kerry-Edwards buttons pinned to their T-shirts and paper protest signs at his at his GOP-only appearances. But, now . . . http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2...

Darwin1 calling others idiots....LOL!!!! What is that saying regarding people in glass houses???:) USPS is a terrible, outdated business model typical of what we see when government tries to compete against companies that actually have a clue. Whenever I have anything important to send, it is sent Fed-Ex. I can't think of the last time I used USPS--scratch that--Netflix returns--that's it for over a year....I'm guessing 99% of the soldiers use web cams and e-mail and the majority of paychecks are deposited direct.....Get with the times Darwin and stop giving outdated examples to back up your inane arguments:)

Sadly, kinsohn UPS and FedEx do a half job, however, it is the USPS that serves EVERYONE. There is no FedEx or UPS in my small town but there is a post office. A post office that used to make sure people got their paycheck and soldiers their letters home. Even the Alaskans and Wyoming ranchers living in the middle of nowhere. In fact, there have been several times when my final FedEx delivery was finished by that terrible USPS. It appears as though you are the idiot drinking the Kool-aid.

Hey, I feel a lot better since Obama explained that health insurance companies don't have anything to worry about because the post office can't compete with FedEx and UPS. Finally, a good explanation as to why we need a government insurance plan!

You can't make this stuff up!
Is the Kool-Aid the people must be drinking to believe even a fraction of what this nut-job says legal? I want some!

Northman, it was your definition not mine. Now in your deluded world you want to change it again. Before we had a federal reserve each state issued its own money or there was private money. The Whiskey rebellion occurred because Pennsylvania Scots were using Whiskey as a form of currency. It was taxed and they rebelled - founder George Washington engaged them and drove them into what is now Kentucky and Tennessee. You apply your definitions as you want in avoidance of the facts. We could have a completely private money system but we don't by choice - its socialist. Your definition. You are an idiot.

Today, on the News some woman started whining about why we aren't going back to the country our founders created. To bad the idiot didn't realize that in that country she would have not been able to vote or own property. How stupid can someone be.

These Conservatives want to take us back to the Dark Ages.

darwin:
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Despite my misgivings, I’ll try this one more time. Every valid national government, or state if you prefer, creates its own currency. By your looney tunes definition, therefore, every country is socialist! You simply have no concept of the meaning of sovereign states, capitalism, socialism, or the political system in general. It’s not a matter of Republicans, or anyone else, changing definitions. It’s a matter of learning what words mean before you try to use them.
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You really should educate yourself before you embarrass yourself further. You are woefully unqualified to engage in this discussion. Read, learn, and become knowledgeable. In the unlikely event that ever happens, I’ll be happy to reengage with you.

Northman, Republicans wrote the book on changing definitions. Facts are facts. This was your definition: an economic system based on state ownership of capital. The state prints the money, charges interest on the money and gives it away to banks. Now that I have pointed out these facts you call them opinions. Nice definition change.

So Northman, I'm assuming you don't believe that health-care is a community service? So in your view, the community has a right to receive protection from criminals, terrorists, foreign foes, etc., but not disease?

darwin1:
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You are entitled to your opinions, and you are welcome to embrace any world view you like. But in ordinary civil discourse, you are most emphatically *NOT* entitled to make up your own definitions for words. Sorry, but everything run by the government is not socialist. The military is not socialist just because you waived your little wand and redefined the word “socialism” from commonly accepted practice.
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If you can’t frame your arguments in a logical manner, using basic definitions for simple concepts, I for one won’t bother responding to your posts.

andre the socialist hypocrite has spoken.

No the government doesn't. You choose to use government money: you could barter. You choose to use government roads: you could walk. You make choices but aren't man enough to admit it or to accept the responsibility of your choices. You are a Republican.

Northman, the state is the government. So, yes anything run by the government is socialist. How is it absurd not to think so? The military is socialist because it is run by the state. Arguments against socialism always hinge on the idea that it is inefficient and wasteful. What is more inefficient and wasteful than the military? You're splitting hairs to ensure that your socialism is acceptable while the others are not. According to your own definition our whole money supply (Capital) is socialist because it is controlled by the government which in turn is borrowed or given (Republicans) to the banks to then borrow. So, we have a socialist banking system. Is anyone here pulling out their money and sending it back to the state? I would bet not.

RAF, this is a blog. Grammar and usage are not rules set in stone. They change based on common usage: almost socialist I would say. For example, the difference between a dash and a colon can be slight and are usually at the writer's discretion depending on the point they are trying to make. The first rule of writing is clarity of expression. There are many writers who break the rules for the purpose of making a point. If you would like, I could provide some examples for you.

Besides, unless you are my boss, editor or giving me a grade, I could give a crap what you think. We had this discussion earlier and it was concluded that you have reading comprehension problems. Once again, you don't understand and its everyone else's fault.

I think that we all do agree on term limits for everyone in office.

officerfriendly...I am with you. GM should just get rid of the union! That will cut costs.

futurerichguy:
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Absolutely wrong. Socialism is “a political theory advocating state ownership of industry” or “an economic system based on state ownership of capital”. Police are a community service provided by the government, and the military is our primary means of national defense. By your definition, every level of government, and every service provided by government, would be socialist, which is utterly absurd. You’d better ditch your Marxist textbook for something more accurate.

As the right wing nuts would have you believe. They can't think for themselves, but would rather spread lies and rumors to the American public.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2473/3812...

Northman, socialism has a fairly simple definition, and that's government (or public) ownership. So unless we privatize our police and military, those are technically socialist organizations. At least that's the definition in the text books, not Fox News.

You are correct they should have started what they said. But to surmise they could have passed it, alone, at the fed level is incorrect.

Retired:
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You’re right, but the Republicans made a big deal about term limits at the time, then after the elections, they just sort of dropped it. Neither party should be solely responsible for passing the amendment, but when one party campaigns on reform, they have an obligation to at least try to get the job done.

I am an advocate for term limits. That being said assuming one party should have passed it defies how our government works. The US constitution has set the present two year and 6 year terms for congress and the senate; an amendment to the constitution is required to change or limit this…not something a single piece of legislation by either party done at the federal level can achieve.

darwin1:
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I have to give you credit for a good point, the Republicans should have passed term limits when they had the opportunity and momentum. It’s amazing how the perspective on term limits and congressional pay changes once a candidate becomes an incumbent. A hypocrite is a hypocrite, whichever side of the isle he/she is sitting on.
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Your rant on libertarians is way off track. You are confusing libertarians with anarchists. Libertarians don’t want to eliminate government as you infer, just keep it from becoming a big brother intrusion. If you don’t understand the concepts, please don’t burden the rest of us with windy manifestations of your ignorance. Just let your keyboard mercifully gather dust until a simpler concept comes along.
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As for insisting police and military are socialist organizations, where in the world is that coming from? A little factual backing for your wild theories would be nice. Although again, this has nothing to do with health care, a subject you are studiously avoiding defending (just like Obama), preferring to smear your opponents instead (just like Obama).

The irony is you paid paid for that advanced degree and the majority of your statements are incoherent babble that lack transitions or proper english structure; begs the question did you really get a degree, was it a tall tale (like many of your statements), or did you not get your monies worth?

Many Republicans offered term limits when the Contract for America was bandied about and then rescinded once in office - more hypocrisy.

When Voltaire said he would defend your right to say it he was referring to empiricists of the time who were called heretics for seeking the truth. In other words he wasn't referring to liars which is what right wing fanatics are.

Libertarians live in a world that has never happened and will never be. They drive and government roads, use government money, take government social security so they are hypocrites.

Again, is the irony lost on officerfriendly, that the police are socialist as is the military.

DiGriz, I agree that term limits might help but instant write off elections can do that and much more.

There is stupidity in this world. I just wonder why the Republican party has a monopoly on it?

whythink, here is some more examples of real astroturfing and organizing...

http://healthcareforamericanow.org/site/...

Zoom, the cost issue is the very one you brought up cried about in this and other discussions over health care; always the same argument about how much more we spend in this country per person than any other country…and then also the tired and erroneous one of how we don’t see the same return on health care dollar as other countries.

Now that you are faced with the fact that this is also true for education in this country you decide it is not an issue to discuss? Either you think we should pay the same as other nations for similar services or you are just echoing position statements and talking points made by others.

Either way it is a point made by you (and others). I am just pointing out the obvious obfuscation to your point---it is either important on a national spending issue or it’s not; you can’t have it both ways.

Thank you RAF for your civil response to my question. I have a better understanding of your perspective.

I was wondering if I could read these comments without seeing President Bush's name...nope. People were upset when Bush was listening to their phone calls but they have no problem with Obama keeping names of people who may be trouble. HELLO 1984! Lie..if you have health ins now you can keep it. Yea like my employer is not going to shove me into the goverment program to save them money. Lie...your taxes won't go up unless you make over $250.000 a year. Before its over the tax and spend liberal socialists will tax me since I work and have health ins. This is a liberal socialist's wet dream its called redistribution of wealth. You take from those who work and give it to some lazy azz who won't work. Seems to work in other socialist countries. Remember when 1 millon dollars was worth something? Now with the tax and spend liberal socialist's in charge 1 billion dollars rolls easily off their lips. My grandchilderns grandchildern will be trying to pay off this bill that Obama and the other socialist's are running up. Some of you idiots voted for change... did you think it was going to cost this much? Oh and by the way the wall street guys are still raking it in even with Obama and boys saying it was going to stop. I just don't know how much more change I can afford

In Right To Work states you don't have to pay ANY dues to a union if you don't wish to be a member. Wisconsin is a forced-unionism state. http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm

Under Federal law, employees cannot be required to join a union or maintain membership to retain their jobs. (Beck Law)(Union Rights). You still have to pay the part of the dues pertaining to representational activities. The union still has to represent you in any adversarial dispute with the employer, but you do not have to be a member.

MooShoo, the irony, as you put it, is the assumption by you that I am a consumer of the VA...you can't be further from the truth. I have taken the consumer approach and chosen to not to use the VA for many of the same reasons I am against a govt run health care...lack of service for one. I do purchase my health care from non-government doctors and hospitals.

Officerfriendly:
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Amen to that! Less government is the best government.

"Health Care reform is good for EVERYONE..." And there in lies the problem. Communist libs like darwin1 think they know what's best for all of us. Sorry to burst your bubble darwin1 but I know what's best for ME. I don't want your government run health care. Leave me alone. Don't tread on me. Less government = MORE FREEDOM!

"...anyone that is a former or current GM employee HAS to belong to the union..." Speaking of which, isn't it about time Wisconsin became a Right To Work state? http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm. Who's with me?

they multiply like rabbits.......and they only come out at night

916WI:
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I don’t get what it is with liberals. When you try to have a reasoned discussion, one starts talking gays in the military, and another chimes in with GITMO. You would think Bush was still President. They can’t add anything intelligent to the discussion, so they trot out the old mantra of left-wing hoo-doos. From reading the blogs, I now understand how the Obamas and Doyles get elected, but I sure don’t know where these bloggers (voters) are coming from.

+1 Northman--I seriously laughed out loud when I read the Gitmo comparison! I'm sure we could all seeing inviting some of the Gitmo detainees into out homes for some nice healthy debate......Don't you think?

whythink:

Are you suggesting GITMO is filled with peaceful civilian demonstrators? Do you even get the concept here?

northman
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"The liberal version of this, as demonstrated by Pelosi, Obama, and the rest, is: “I don’t agree with what you are saying, and you should be put to death for trying to say it.” OK, slight exaggeration, but only slight. Why should liberals have carte blanche to demonstrate, however violently, but upset conservatives are obligated to shut up and colour? This two-faced, good for the goose but forbidden to the gander, is why I despise today’s liberal movement."
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Can anyone say Gitmo?

Speaking of these "mob tactics", while the anti-reform population is simply stressing their views in a loud, but firm and very clear way, it seems that those that are pro-reform are starting to resort to violence.....
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/231...

This poor guy gets beat up for just handing out flags.......Who are proving to be the "thugs" now?

and just think of the people who vote for these people. Talk about being way off base! Even far fom their own base

“And now, chairing the 21st century un-American Activities Committee, allow me to present . . . tail-gunner Nancy.” Say it isn’t so, Joe!!

Oh, please, not at the post office! Can't you protest elsewhere and not hamper others' attempts to ambulate past, over, under and through you to buy a frickin' book of stamps? (I am only half-kidding here ... ) Please stay out of my way that morning.

When POTUS asks Americans to rat out their neighbours if they happen to oppose one of his policies, that’s what I call “extremely un-American”. Give me Richard Nixon any day!!

"Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American"

What a joke this lady is.

UnAmerican Ms. Pelossi is lying to the American people that you supposedly did not hear about the interrogation techniques being used just to save yourself.

Not to fan the flames of this discussion either way, but i got a chuckle out of this article by Steny Hoyer and Nancy Pelosi.Sorry for another link from me:)
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/08/u...
Pay special attention to the middle of the article, specifically the things stated after the bolded "Let the facts be heard"

The more partisan bickering I read about the more I think about Abraham Lincoln's statement "A house divided cannot stand". The terrorists don't need to do anything except feed into this partisanship and we can just implode on our own. People need to focus on solutions, not sides. Is it the media feeding this? It is getting ridiculous!

Zoom, monopolies do occur in free markets but, unless they are government enforced monopolies, free market forces tend to correct such anomalies over time. Avoid using anti-monopoly rhetoric when arguing for more government. Government is the ultimate monopoly --the only organization legally authorized to use physical force to assure compliance! Both the AMA and the pharmaceutical supply chain are examples of government enforced monopolies.

People tend to confound capitalism with free market principles. One does not preclude the other. A free market can perform whenever consumers and producers are free to voluntarily conduct business. In a truly free market, new and innovative producers are able to enter the market without fear of coercion. It is this essential freedom that guards against monopolies and what is currently missing at every level of the health care industry.

So, andre you belong to and benefit from a socialist organization by your choice of job but its not your fault and you still take the paycheck. You're lying to yourself. Your entitlements are fine but no one else's. You are the worlds biggest socialist hypocrite.

Ok, i give up, take my money...you will anyway (and my kids' and their kids').

I guess i just thought all the stuff i've forgone to have my 18 month emergency fund, my dis. insurance and of course my health insurance was something i earned not something i was entitled to. Although my income has been cut in half since 2007 i still haven't filed for bankruptcy or ssi, i still don't have credit card debt or home equity loans, and if this reform doesn't go through i'll still get along ok with my 7 year old car and 20" non-flat screen TV and i'll still adjust my lifestyle for my income. Good luck with the rest of your postings opposers, i'm done.

Darwin:
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I’m living on a planet with a rich oxygen atmosphere. Looks like the stuff is a little thin on your planet.
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“The military can't even let gay people . . . serve” Is this in some way germane to the health care discussion at hand, or protesters in general?
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“They aren't just presenting their free speech . . . ” I don’t care for bad actors at either end of the ideological spectrum, but what these folks are doing is an order of magnitude from what I’ve seen in past liberal demonstrations. How many people have been hurt? How many stores looted, cars overturned, police injured? That’s just another day on the protest line for liberals.

I hope I Don't have to work Saturday.....I want to protest at the Post office on Milton Ave 9am to noon. crosses fingers.......

On what planet are you living Northman? Right that's what Conservatives and people in the military say. The military can't even let gay people who have interpretation skills for the fight against terrorism serve, but your a bastion of liberalism. Funny!! Then you say liberals want to kill people who don't agree with them but qualify that its a SLIGHT exaggeration. Does your God split hairs to or is that just you? With people like you defending us why do we need enemies?

They aren't just presenting their free speech they are lying, yelling acting in a threatening manner. Give me a break.

"...why no outrage over the increasing costs of education?"

How do you know we aren't outraged about education? Who cares in this forum?

"I think voters should be allowed to vote at the polling booth and at the state line; moving to other areas of the country if one state is running terrible programs like education and health care."

Only a retired person could come up with the "moving" logic. Can I take my job with me too?

FOTH, re: the "free" market. Markets tend toward monopoly in a "free" market. Right now, there is too little competition. Insurance companies are continuing to consolidate, which is their right to do, yet prices are also increasing. I fail to see the argument that opening up all health care to the free market, with no government intervention, will somehow increase competition. Just the opposite will happen over time.

Northman, I could not agree more. You ever notice when the statist liberal tv news networks broadcast these conservative protests?They make sound as though they are the most violent and OH my god it is the end of the world kind of situation? But boy oh boy I am just supposed to take their leftist statist liberal agenda in stride. What a bunch of losers.

While I was in uniform, when the discussion turned to protesters (invariably liberal, usually far left-wing), the comment was always, “I don’t agree with what they are saying, but I will fight to the death to defend their right to say it.” This attitude was near-universal through the military, and was echoed by most civilian conservatives I knew.
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The liberal version of this, as demonstrated by Pelosi, Obama, and the rest, is: “I don’t agree with what you are saying, and you should be put to death for trying to say it.” OK, slight exaggeration, but only slight. Why should liberals have carte blanche to demonstrate, however violently, but upset conservatives are obligated to shut up and colour? This two-faced, good for the goose but forbidden to the gander, is why I despise today’s liberal movement.

You got me there RAF. You didn't understand the sarcasm and its not your fault. Sounds about right.

Sadly, this isn't a blog about education. This is just an attempt by you to do your usual act of avoiding the issue. You don't know what your talking about so you cut and run from the issue at hand by bringing up something else. Education's growth is predominantly do to fixed infrastructure that is dependent on unfixed commodities, monopolies and labor shortages. And I actually agree it is outrageous, however, if you don't learn something you can always try again or get your money back. If you die in surgery, you don't get your money back. Again, Life is Constitutionally protected money and an education are not. Education is usually in state Constitutions. I thought you knew how things worked?

We have to have government regulation because markets don't work the way you RWFs believe. You live in a fantasy world where you get government socialism but no one else should.

Your Supreme Leader is

OBAMA

Statism (or etatism) is a term that may refer to either one or both of the following:

A major government or state role in the direction of the economy, both directly through state-owned enterprises and indirectly through the state-directed economic planning of the overall economy.[1][2]
A political viewpoint "that sovereignty is vested not in the people but in the national state, and that all individuals and associations exist only to enhance the power, the prestige, and the well-being of the state. The fascist concept of statism repudiates individualism and exalts the nation as an organic body headed by the Supreme Leader and nurtured by unity, force, and discipline."[3]
Statism is sometimes used to refer to state capitalism or highly regulated market economies with large amounts of government intervention.

RAF, I find it ironic that you are such a staunch critic of health care reform when you are the consumer of the most socialized form of medicine (Veterans Administration) that exists. And depending how old you are, you might be using the second most socialized form of medicine (Medicare). Please reconcile this irony for me.

Darwin1, you seem to invite a lot of the vitriol that gets directed at you. If that's what you enjoy, then I'm sure others here will be happy to oblige you. Sorry, but your comments to me are too incoherent for intelligent discussion. Take a breath and try again...

You got me there RAF. You didn't understand the sarcasm and its not your fault. Sounds about right.

Sadly, this isn't a blog about education. This is just an attempt by you to do your usual act of avoiding the issue. You don't know what your talking about so you cut and run from the issue at hand by bringing up something else.

However, here goes. Education's growth is predominantly do to fixed infrastructure that is dependent on unfixed commodities, monopolies and labor shortages. And I actually agree it is outrageous, however, if you don't learn something you can always try again or get your money back. If you die in surgery, you don't get your money back. Again, Life is Constitutionally protected money and an education are not. Education is usually in state Constitutions. I thought you knew how things worked?

We have to have government regulation because markets don't work the way you RWFs believe. You live in a fantasy world where you get government socialism but no one else should.

Sarah, I never said you should pay for anyone's education nor have I questioned your reason for wanting health care.

Both of these issues are items that should be fought, voted on, and funded at the local and state levels…the federal government has no business being involved; read up on federalism.

I do have a big issue with a federal overhaul of such a large percentage of our nation’s economy when history has shown every program the federal government runs drastically grows over time and is constantly beyond budget.

I think voters should be allowed to vote at the polling booth and at the state line; moving to other areas of the country if one state is running terrible programs like education and health care. By moving both of these to the federal level we no longer have a choice; you will continue you to fund it no mater where you live…this is not freedom or democracy in a federal system as it should be.

RetiredAirForce: There is outcry over the waste seen in public education. Also, why should I foot the bill for somebody else's education (whether for an adult or a child) and be attacked because I feel a national health care plan is needed?

Zoom, please explain how education is a red hearing. The issue is relevant when the war cry for reform is that we spend more per person in this country than any other industrialized nation for health care…when the same is true for education; it shows hypocrisy over a failed contention---lack of consistency. If the argument is paying the same as other nations for equivalent services, why no outrage over the increasing costs of education?

I and many others spoke against many of Bush’s plans, including prescription drugs. Perhaps you were not listening.

Darwin1, you have as little clue over how are country runs as you do about mine or anyone’s health care. Your remarks, on supposed sarcastic notes, is an attempt to portray your inept understanding on how our current system operates; like your idea people pay taxes on groceries…you are wrong on most everything you type.

Why can't all health insurance be run as non-profits? Seems like that was how it started in the beginning. Makes me sick when an insurance company denies coverage for a sick person or raises my premiums 700% and then pays their CEO MILLIONS! How many people could have received the health care they deserve for the 26 million or so the insurance company CEO pockets from their profits? The system needs a complete overhaul. Either non-profit private insurance or a single payer plan. Having a company who wants to profit off of you between you and your doctor is a lot scarier than having a civil servant between you and your doctor.

fool, the problem is that science and history do not support your blind faith in a market system that is bogged down by collusion and oligopolies. Yes, when someone dies there is a price but that should be YOUR life YOUR experimenting with not someone else's. Life is Constitutionally protected not money. Look it up.

We have government intervention because bosses lock workers in. Evidently, you have never hear of the Triangle Factory Fire where 146 young women died because they were locked in. Or, more recently when 25 workers were killed at the Hamlet chicken processing plant fire in 1991 because fire doors were locked. Bosses lock doors, financiers risk other peoples money, food processors cut corners, asbestos causes cancer.

What your saying makes absolutely no sense. Aside from the fact that you have NO FACTS or DETAILS to support your conclusions. First let's say we had no government regulation and there was a contamination at one peanut processing. Now no consumers are buying peanuts from retailers, processors, value added processors or farmers. So, even though only one person may be at fault the whole industry is punished. Now we have socialism in reverse. Collective punishment for the actions of the few. You haven't taxed people out of business you have punished them out of business. Nice going.

Zoom, not to debate what you wrote but, with all of the medical monopolies, prohibitions, mandates and regulations already in place, some 180,000 people die each year from medical errors, with over half of those considered to be preventable errors. That's not very convincing evidence for the effectiveness of government intervention. (Or the AMA for that matter.) How many people die each year from the (relatively) unregulated, profit-based grocery, restaurant or diet supplement industries? And those rare events lead the news reports ad nauseum, don't they? The consequences to those businesses is immediate and, in many cases, devastating. Reality just isn't on the side of those who trumpet government as the answer to all of life's problems.

Zoom, would say that the behavior of the private system could be a consequemce of high taxes (a liberal thing), high cost of labor (unions), and high dollar liability (frivilous lawsuits).

FOTH, government intervention into the health care system, or any other industry, is a reaction to the behavior of the private system. Since death can't be reversed, we see it as a very important issue when private health insurance companies, for example, don't act in the best interest of the population, but instead act to benefit their shareholders first and foremost.

Yes Zoom.....that was upsetting, but you're making our point for us. When the government got involved a $400 billion plan skyrockets to $750 billion, and now you want them to turn around and implement their $1.6 trillion plan? Giving them access to that amount of taxpayer dollars and letting them loose in this sector will end with the same result as their Medicare program.......It's nice to see you are finally coming around!!!!:)

tostretchthetruth
Aug 10, 2009 at 7:56 a.m.
@proartist- just hold on, your days of making any public comments are numbered, unless of course they are for this current Washington regime. Obama will continue to silence those who oppose. It is happening, and it will continue to happen..
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Nothing was more silencing that the Anti-American lable placed on anyone who questioned rushing into Iraq.
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No republican should be talking about a president that silences the public opposition after GW.
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Heck, if you were arabic and disagreed you likely ended up in Cuba. No lawyer, no rights and no crime committed.
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Yeah, Obama is silencing dissent. WOW!

Zoom, Republicans who really were upset couldn't have said much without violating the 11th Commandment.

Are there any pro-reformers out there willing to at least consider the possibility that government action is what CAUSES most of the flaws in our health care system? Do you honestly believe it is only a coincidence that health care is already burdened with more governmental prohibitions, mandates and individual subsidies than all other industries combined?

I'm wondering if you Republicans were so upset when a Republican Congress passed the $400 Billion Medicare Prescription Drug Modernization Act (Medicare Part D), which has now ballooned to over $750 Billion. I guess socilized health care is O.K. as long as it benefits the drug and insurance companies, as Part D has.

@proartist- just hold on, your days of making any public comments are numbered, unless of course they are for this current Washington regime. Obama will continue to silence those who oppose. It is happening, and it will continue to happen..

RAF, coming from someone from the government run military who receives government run health care, your comments are hypocritical to say the least. I even defended you against kiowmohican who doesn't think anyone on the government dole should be allowed to vote. This may also include former or current GM employee and socialist union member andre_linoge who hates the socialism he benefits from.

My comments were clearly sarcastic evidently that is beyond our perception.

Our federal government is representative, however, it is Republicans who don't like it and are trying to hijack the system with their violent protests. Referendums occur in many states so the idea we could have a national one is not out of the question, unless you of course you don't want the truth to come out.

Recently, all of you RWF's were crying about runaway inflation but that never materialized. Now the sky is falling somewhere else. None of you ever deal with the problems of the current system, you only conjure up fantasies about a future that doesn't exist yet with absolute certainty.

Health Care reform is good for EVERYONE and not just a few hypocrites who cry about the entitlements others receive but not theirs.

"Bush's budged deficit never exceeded roughly $500 billion."

The combat action of the Iraq war was never on the budget, and were allocated as emergency appropriations. Add another $140+ Billion PER YEAR for the war onto Bush's "budget". Obama's budget now INCLUDES those expenses. The costs of this unecessary war are directly inhibiting our ability to fix our problems at home.

The U.S. spends 2.5 TIMES what any other industrialized nation does on health care per person, yet we rank in the middle on nation health. I don't remember anyone bringing up the red herring of education, or that we should spend more on it. Who cares? It's about time our government takes action.

If you want to read a whopper of a lie, check out Palin's quotes from yesterday. In my book, she is irresponsible. Thank goodness she is out of office.

From the article: "American lawmakers who support health care reform are bracing for protests and demonstrations that threaten to turn violent."
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This is a dishonest statement from the Associated Press. It should read "American lawmakers who support universal health care, a.k.a single-payer, a.k.a. Obamacare, are bracing for protests..."
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Obviously there are other version of health care reform that people won't protest.

PanamaRed said "Due to the Bush and congressional Republican spending sprees and tax cuts for the wealthy, we went from a budget SURPLUS to a TRILLION in debt."
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How can you compare a budget surplus to national debt - they are two completely different entities? Way to try and spin numbers to your liking. National debt INCREASED during Clinton's years in office as well, and national debt has been in the trillions since the 80s. Bush's budged deficit never exceeded roughly $500 billion. Give it a few years and we'll see Obama easily doubling the budget deficits of the Bush years.

Let us look at the facts/remarks we have learned so far for those in favor of the Dem’s plan right here on these pages that have said the opposition is lying and distorting the facts.

1. They want to vote for it on a national level; …No clue we live in a representative government and we elect people to vote on these matters for us.
2. Billions of American’s disagree and want healthcare reform; …ahhh, we have less than 400 million American’s.
3. Republican’s want torture covered in healthcare; …how do you defend this?
4. The upfront cost to the President’s plan will increase the deficit; …wait, the President has said it won’t and his supporters here say it will?
5. They want to eliminate the insurance companies and assume this will reduce cost by 30%; …Huh? Even Canada uses insurance companies in its state run plan and their country is the model?
6. Paul Ryan received close to a Million dollars in PAC money from insurance companies and pharmaceuticals last year and this is why he is against the plan; …Wow, in reality he received less than $175,000, but don’t let the facts distort the conversation.
7. The government will control health care costs: …Really? What large government program so far has shown this to be true?
8. We spend more in this country for healthcare per person than any other country; …This useless bit of data does nothing to fix any problem. We spend a larger percentage of our GDP in this country on education compared to any other country where is the outrage at our broken education system? The distracters are only saying we don’t spend enough for education. Nice consistency.

Bottom line for everyone, look up what is real or not. Look up for yourself what an overhaul to the whole system will or won’t do for you. If you support it based on facts fine, but don’t come here and lie to me and others about what you think is in the plan or what it will do.

janesvillemom: Thank you for understanding what I have been trying to convey. So many of those that oppose change have not been hit with "bad luck" yet ... God help them when it happens to them.

"If you believe the delivery of health care in this country is the best it can be, good for you. Billions of Americans disagree." LOL, now there's a statement i would like to see backed up by somebody.

Have you heard the Republican health care plan? Torture will be covered along with Gay lovers, foreign mistresses, cognitive dissonance and allow you to invest social security in the stock market. In order to get this plan you must ignore an election and pretend that you are really in the majority: President Ahmadinejad will be providing lessons on deluding yourself, though I see most of you are there already.

The best health car plans will be on a first come first serve basis at the top of a ten story building without elevators. This will ensure there is no tinge of socialistic arbitrariness. And all taxes on income not earned will be eliminated. Now Paris Hilton can become richer and more famous than ever.

"Prounion, what you choose not to understand is this program will affect people’s lives in a way GW never did."
Where have you been the past 8 years RAF, under a rock?
We were led into a war with Iraq based on conjecture and misinformation that has cost our country BILLIONS of dollars and thousands of lives. Incredibly, hundreds of millions of dollars are still unaccounted for and, my guess is, will never be found. Due to the Bush and congressional Republican spending sprees and tax cuts for the wealthy, we went from a budget SURPLUS to a TRILLION in debt. All the conservatives screamed "TRAITOR" to anyone who questioned funding for the war in Iraq.
Now Obama is suggesting some needed changes to our health care system. These changes won't fix health care overnight nor will in be cheap. The upfront costs will add to our deficit and those laying out the changes to health care have never denied that. The OBJECTIVE is that as these changes take effect our health care costs will decrease and the whole "system" will function both more efficiently and effectively. Each American needs to be more responsible for their own health instead of relying on the "system" to treat the consequences of their poor eating habits. We spend twice as much treating individuals suffering from the results of their poor health choices than we do for those too poor to afford health care. I'm in favor of eliminating insurance companies. That will cut 30% of our cost right off the top. Tell me, what purpose do health insurance companies serve. Do they perform operations, provide follow-up care, visit you when your sick, provide research to find cures? No, they take your money then work to find ways to deny your claim and when that doesn't work they raise the rates. Perhaps if the angry mobs disrupting the Town Hall meetings would shut up and listen they would hear something enlightening instead of only their own ignorant rants. If you believe the delivery of health care in this country is the best it can be, good for you. Billions of Americans disagree.
You don't want to compare health care to war funding yet you don't have any problems comparing it to Cash for Clunkers.
We will be paying (literally) for Bush's pathetic attempts at running this country for many years to come. It's time to crawl out from under your rock and see the light, RAF.

This isn't about lazy people. It's about making health care or insurance affordable. We have our own business and buy private insurance. Our rates went up 700% in 7 years! Yes 700%! We were lucky enough to not have any pre-existing conditions so we bailed on our "risk pool" and got a new plan at a fraction of the cost. If every member of our family had not been healthy, we would have been stuck in that pool and would have continued to pay higher and higher premiums as the healthy people (like us) left for lower priced plans. This just prices the unhealthy people out of possibly being able to afford insurance. Now we live in fear of developing any "pre-existing" conditions that will prevent us from changing insurance down the road when our plan rates increase again. The other problem was that our new insurance didn't cover all of the same doctors as our old insurance, so now I have to find a new doctor who will know nothing about me. Part of good medical care is developing a doctor/patient relationship and by changing insurance that is being taken away. The entire system is broken and although I'm not sure of the answer, change is NECESSARY. If you have employer paid insurance you are lucky, but some day, your luck might run out...ask anyone who has lost their job and insurance right along with it. If you ever find yourself in the private insurance market, you'll have a new perspective.

"Being able to stop pandemics is essential to our common defense and general welfare."
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Another useless point thrown out in the topic of health care debate. Hey advanced degree boy, have you not heard of the CDC? After you read up on them you will see this is part of the reason they are around.

+1 officer......I still get a kick out of Darwin's rants:) It's hardly a "minority of right wing fanatics" that are taking to the streets on this issue. Many of those that initially supported Obama are now speaking out against these proposals. With the way that the momentum is shifting, it might not be too late:)

"minority group of right wing fanatics"? Headline news: Obama approval rating sinks to 50 percent: poll. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090806/ts_...

Newt and Palin accuse health reform of euthanasia which is a complete and total lie. This is about democracy and the fact that a minority group of right wing fanatics think they can hijack our system and overturn the election in November. There is no Constitutional protection of wealth so get over it already. In fact, the Constitution calls for the common defense and promotion of the general welfare. Currently ERs must provide care irregardless of ability to pay. This means that someone with a transmittable disease is treated for it in the worse way possible. Being able to stop pandemics is essential to our common defense and general welfare. Even the military understands this.

lulu (your name is ridiculous)
I have volunteered for the homeless through my church many times. I've also given to charity...which is my choice not a government mandate. I'm not surprised by your choice of words. What i don't understand is why you are online posting about this rather than helping some homeless person right now. Why do you not have homeless and poor people sleeping on your couch (misery loves company). Why did you spend money on gas to drive out and buy a computer and why do you pay for internet access when you could handing that money to a random poor person on the street? I have an idea...since your so pro obamacare, why don't you start by paying my insurance premiums i'll give you my paypal acct info. I'll need $135 by friday. Thank You!

Janesville is full of snobby, self righteous *REDNECKS* Who have no right to be as stuck up as they are! False sense of entitlement, the whole lot of them! Honestly, I don't know how all these people get off acting the way they do!

Don't you think these people work hard for what they have? It's called a separation of the haves and the have nots... and the "haves" are real nasty! I would rather my tax money went to HELP people then to go for stuff like a ice rink we don't need or to bail out these banks and auto companies that SHOULD know how to manage their money (that is why they have their jobs, right?). These people who NEED this health care don't deserve to be put down by a bunch of snobs who only care about those who can help themselves. you all must have been out playing golf or something when they were giving out empathy.

luluberry......get off of your high horse and stop being so judgmental....Seriously!!!! It's called "personal responsibility" and it's something that we see less and less of in today's society. Who is the greedier, more self serving person? The person that works hard their entire life and wants to keep what they have worked for, or the person that goes through life just expecting things to be handed to them never really worrying about where they came from......

fromjanesville2waukesha..

Let me get this straight... If you were in the situation some of these people were in, you would rather starve and be homeless then accept help? I doubt it. You hare just riding your high horse, preaching about what leeches on society these people are. Have you ever volunteered at the homeless shelter? Doubt it... Lord forbid someone take away any of your precious time to help others. YOU, fromjanesville2waukesha are a creep. I thank god everyday I am not a snotty, self serving person like you are. You should be ashamed.

SarahB1 it's sad when people get into accidents. My sister was rear ended at 50 mph while turning left onto Ruger Ave. from highway 14 and almost died. I know how hard it was for her. She had health insurance which she had worked and paid for on her own. Insurance is a group of people who pool their money together to reduce individual risk. If only half (at best)of the people add money to the pool, it is reasonable to believe the coverage will be half as good. Who knows, maybe with financial restraints "Obama care" obviously would have, neither of you might have been "worth" saving. Just a sad potential reality.

Again why should i help pay for your or her health care?

Keep up the good fight fellow "cowards". Make your voices heard! It drives those communist libs, i.e. darwin1, crazy!

Scoffer's, keep guzzling the koolaid, whatever gets you through your life. Fortunately, now that his true colors are being laid bare, your messiah's approval rating is sinking like the Titantic. Hopefully, this country will be able to recoup after this lame duck is sent packing back to Chicago where he honned his thug polictical practices. Behavior that you choose, in your koolaid inebriated state, to believe he isn't capable of!?! Gulp, gulp.

The only reason I have is this, janesvilletowaukesha (and, granted I feel selfish writing this): If I had a chance to get my knees helped in any non-surgical or surgical way, I could return to work as a "regular" RN and better serve my patients and myself. I would earn a higher wage which would result in my paying higher taxes which I would gladly do for the chance to walk without the cane(s). That is my reasoning. I actually spend most of my non-work hours home because I choose to ... one, I can't spend money if I am at home ... two, I can't find myself in another car wreck if I am home. If the latter were to occur, I don't know how I would cover the health care costs. I was lucky enough to still have my Cobra insurance when the first accident occurred. After being removed from my car with the "jaws of life," I was taken by rescue squad to UW-Hospital's trauma ER for treatment. The treatment was great and fair, but I fear without the insurance, I would either be in bankruptcy court or still paying off the bills. The person who struck me from behind at an estimated 50 mph was from out of state and without auto insurance.

SarahB1

Congratulations, you're doing exactly what i feel you and everyone else should be doing...working in order to maintain your lifestyle which is in part your health insurance. I'm doing the same thing. You stated you could've taken public assistance and you didn't. Why? Because you didn't want me or anyone else to pay your way. And why should I? I haven't gotten to where i am now by sitting home watching TV or posting on every other article the Janesville Gazette publishes like some people.

As for having empathy, I understand it's tough for certain people. I know i wouldn't want to work 75 hours per week. I know that because i did it for 3 years in order to provide for my family. Did i go to the government, (the people) my neighbors, for help? Heck no!

Now give me one good reason I should have any obligation to help pay for your healthcare Sarah.

Prounion, what you choose not to understand is this program will affect people’s lives in a way GW never did. Trying to compare health care and war funding is like comparing water to a rock…there is no comparison.

Where was the republican outrage when George spent so much money and American credibility on the Iraq war with his no bid contracts to his budies?
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Now a domestic program comes up and its the end of the world. Give me a break.

Tax payer Protest Rally Aug 15th in front of the Post Office on Milton Ave 9am-12pm
Don,t be tardy to the party!

so lets see.....we have how many carz now???? or is it spelled zars....don't matter you know what I mean. Russia don't even have that many for (blank)sakes. Yes I'm one of those angry mobsters......I'm tired of all this crap. you all need to stand up for your rights before they are gone. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr. ok I feel better now. I agree 100% with RAF.. oh one more thing I'm not sorry if I spelled anything here wrong. LOL everyone have a great day!!

RAF,
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In general, no, profits aren't a bad thing but insurance companies should be non-profit. IMO.

They're courageous and informed? Hardly. In one case they booed the guy introducing people and then repeated what was said on Fox the day before. Such as they were wrong about Cash for Clunkers so how can they be right about this. Too bad you cowards weren't expressing such courage when Georgey boy was torturing people, lying about going to war and bailing out the banks. Now you are trying to hijack our democracy with your own group of brown shirts.

Also, I meant to mention that the car I purchased in 2008 is a used car built in 2004. I am blessed in regards to that, however, as it is very dependable and has only required normal upkeep. And in case you start assuming again, the computer that I am typing this on was purchased at a discount in 2005. My internet service is a gift from a brother.

fromjanesvilletowaukesha: You are throwing everybody into one pot and that is not fair nor is it reality in today's world. For example, I am working two part-time jobs and will start another one in September. None of them offer health insurance. I am a registered nurse and also hold a master's degree in social work. I paid for my education myself without grants or loans. I cannot work "the better jobs" due to my knees and having to use at least one cane (often two canes) to walk. (I have arthritis in both knees and also damaged the left knee after being in an accident on I-90 that was determined to be 100 percent NOT my fault.) I have never had children. I have never been on public aid. I was eligible for food stamps at one point but did not apply for them. I am without health insurance because I could no longer afford the $500 monthly Cobra payments. (I was laid off from a job after the detox unit where I worked closed for good.) I take two prescribed medications, one I get for free (samples) from my physician; the other costs me nearly $300 monthly. I cannot purchase my own health care coverage due to having been treated for depression in the past. I am not wasteful with my money: I own one car and purchased that in 2008 after my 1991 Subaru was totaled in the I-90 crash; I rent an apartment and own no property. I consider myself blessed to have the lifestyle that I do. However, I am insulted by your comments but realize you lack knowledge of what many of your fellow Americans' lives are like. Knowledge you can get easily enough if you open your eyes and mind. Unfortunately, you also lack empathy which is a quality I am not sure you are capable of developing.

Whythink, did you know an insurance company cannot offer a cheap policy? Did you know each state they operate in has minimum requirements for coverage that must be placed in all policies sold within that state?

For you to complain that the insurance company does not offer a cheap plan and not wonder why the state that company operates in is preventing a cheaper policy from being offered shows you are either unaware how this works or disingenuous. Look it up some time http://oci.wi.gov/

whythink, are profits a bad thing?

Do you know how many business', people, pension funds, 401k's, city/county/state bonds are invested in insurance funds and stocks? The very reason they are profitable is because all those people demand it from them. That means the likes of all the people complaining here that have a pension plan, 401k, local or country bond, local bank and credit union are benefiting from this terrible profit...if you really are against them then divest completely; consumerism always works when it is tried.

“Speaking of feeding the insurance companies; ask Paul Ryan how much PAC money he received from insurance companies and pharmaceuticals last year-close to a Million $$, in ONE YEAR.”
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What?????????????

MadeinUSA, you need to double check who ever is feeding you those numbers. People that believe everything they hear without checking the facts, on their own, are part of the problem in this debate.

Ryan received less in PAC contributions for the 2008 election cycle than he did from individual donors; less than $125,000 coming from the insurance industry and less than $48,000 coming from the Pharmaceutical companies. No big deal, just 80% and $800,000 less than you claimed.

But don’t trust my numbers look for yourself, on websites like www.opensecrets.org

Relax Darwin!!! Those people are not claiming to be morally superior--they're just smart, informed and frustrated with the insane amount of money the government is spending lately. Hardly cowards--they are just asking for some amount of responsibility and accountability. Basically--we're broke--spending $1.6 trillion dollars at this point is completely unacceptable. It's a great thing that people are taking to the streets and making this known:)

fromjanesville2waukesha
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I have little sympathy for someone who "accidentally" gets pregnant. We all make choices and have to live with the consequences.
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I understand your point but when do those consequences end? Do we really want it to be easier/better for a single mom of three to quit her jobs, and live completely off the government.
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Shouldn't it be, yes, perhaps the person was irresponsible to get pregnant but now she is trying to do the right thing (working 3 jobs), should health care be what prevents her from staying away from welfare?
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It just seems an option for health care is needed. If the insurance companies are too concerned about record profits to provide an option for people then it is time for the government to step up.
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Darwin1, looks like you decided not to read before typing, again. I said I supported the states deciding on their own as well...as it should be, not a national issue. But, as we all know you never think before you speak.

MadeinUSA-I don't know where you're getting your figures. I haven't heard of insurance premiums with a cost of 1500 per month. Also, why would this "single mother" have three kids. Why would a person have 1 let kid alone 3 without being financially stable in a career with a nice savings account. I have little sympathy for someone who "accidentally" gets pregnant. We all make choices and have to live with the consequences.

" If you're working 3 jobs and you don't have health care, it's because of a choice you've made. Many of the uninsured are people who just don't want to pay the premiums and opt out of the company health care. I already pay for "poor" peoples' kids' health care with title 19 (badger care)." jville2waukesha

Interesting. Do you have any idea what the monthly premium would be for a single mother with 3 kids, who is not welfare dependent? About $1500 a month is what she would pay for health insurance with a $3500 annual deductible. So, she'd pay $21,500 a year in premiums and the deductible before the insurance company would cover anything. It's usually a decision these parents make between buying the rent/food and healthcare. Or, more realistically; feed/house/clothe the children or feed an insurance company. Speaking of feeding the insurance companies; ask Paul Ryan how much PAC money he received from insurance companies and pharmaceuticals last year-close to a Million $$, in ONE YEAR.

SarahB1, because these people working two or three jobs, which is pretty rare, have made bad decisions such as having kids without being financially able i should be forced to pay for both my and their health care? If you're working 3 jobs and you don't have health care, it's because of a choice you've made. Many of the uninsured are people who just don't want to pay the premiums and opt out of the company health care. I already pay for "poor" peoples' kids' health care with title 19 (badger care). In fact if you simply have a child and make less than $2700 you're eligible for health care according to the badger care website. On top of that taxpayers will pay for your child care, food, and rent as well. Next thing i know i'll be paying to help people buy brand new cars....oh wait...

Let’s look at what government involvement will do by subsidizing more health care; demand WILL increase.

Look what the cash-for-clunkers program has done; subsidizing the purchase of vehicles inflated demand for cars decreased the supply---as prices go down or offered free demand will go up. Practical example; if a bar owner has an open bar night (free) will more or less beverages be served? The same concept will happen for health care.

This has been proven by three states that have offered healthcare plans; Hawaii, Massachusetts, and Oregon. The plan in Hawaii failed because demand exceeded the budget by such an extent the program was halted less than a year after inception. In Massachusetts demand has caused the longest waiting lists in the country for treatment/service/care. Oregon’s plan to keep costs under control has resulted in rationing; to wit they have a panel that ranks treatments 1-? and the budget sets what will be treated or not. These smaller scale tests by the states only show what WILL happen if the federal government does the same thing for the nation.

Truth time, I “SUPPORT” a states choice to offer health care for people in their state, yes I said I did. This federalist option is how our nation should work. If you like what one state vs. another state is doing you have the option to move around our nation to pay the taxes incurred by the choice you want and the state offers. When a national choice is made it reduces states rights and voters options.

This constant facade that nothing will change and your costs will go down has been proven false by everything government has ever done to this point. What in this magic plan will show history wrong this time?

Yes, trust the government to control prices in health care...just like they have for the price of a college education in this country.

Come on folks - trust the corporations. They already said they would not hike the price of healthcare again. These massive companies have your best interests at heart, no need for change, its all working very well. Profits are up - not like in those socialist countries where the go between between the caregivers and the patients don't make a profit.

More baseless lies..."No other country in the world has a system that punishes the unlucky the way ours does."

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/article...

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.h...

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/10/1...

The reality is all the complaints people have with the current system can be fixed without a total revamp/overhaul.

The ONLY reason these large changes are being brought by Congress/Senate/President is to push our society toward a single payer plan. The administration and the dem leadership KNOW this is not what Americans want so they are trying to change the system slowly over time, as they say "shaping the American position". In other words being dishonest to get what they want not what the American people want.

It is deemed a crisis now because they have the votes to support it. So big a crisis that nothing will be put into law for FOUR YEARS!

As voters you have a choice. Sit back and let these people change your healthcare system to what they want or stand up in opposition of the pathway to single payer and demand those in Congress/Senate/President do their job of representation not social architects; they work for you...don’t ever forget it.

whythink, if you want to look at an organized effort look here for a TRUE example, not some memo you claim is the reason others are exercising their right to the first amendment. http://action.seiu.org/page/s/sebeliusca...

Andre......I don't understand? Obama's latest television appearances stress that without a doubt his proposed program is to give people an option to their existing health care programs, NOT to replace them. The interviews in the attached video directly contradict this. How can this be? Obama can't be misleading us.......can he?:)

WHYTHINK...you are set on a polarized grouping or something. My decisions were not based on Limbaugh or Hannity, but the general news story. I am not going to be lumped into these (other side extremists). Obama is NOT doing "exactly" what I am suggesting. He is attempting to push for an all inclusive system will will blanket everyone. This better not happen without the general concensus of our population having agreed upon it first. We have too many dead beats in this nation (which are growing exponentially), and who are enabled by this give everyone evrything (evil Robin Hood) type thinking,...who are going to take advantage of this new health care push-AT MY EXPENSE. I said that we should help those who truly need it, but you an I know that many people need to help themselves. Fine lets overhaul the system, but false socialistic dreaming is and will continue to be a failure. I am not a republican either. A realist. Partisan politicing is the reason why we have this problem!

kettleblack: Nice racist remark you made in your 4:17 p.m. posting ... kind of kills any credibility I may have found in reading your message. Also, "state-run media"?! Give me a break!

Incorrect Janevillian--please stop being so dramatic! Most of the critics of health care reform base their objections solely on the proposals coming from the government themselves. It has nothing to do with "lies" originating from the health insurance companies. I have seen(and gotten a laugh out of) the television ads that the pro-reformers have run though--talk about using fear tactics and reporting only half truths!!!! I realize that you look at the existing system as "punishing the unlucky", but with the alternative being letting a historically inept government have a go at something they have no successful experience in with $1.6 trillion of our tax dollars--that will end up making that "unlucky" segment of our population significantly larger than it already is.....

kettleblack
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Are you serious?
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Did you jump to the same conclusions when liberals made accusations about GW?
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Do you believe they were innocent people held at Guantamino?
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Do you believe torture was ordered by Cheaney?
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Just trying to find out if you are some partisan nut or consistant. So because some idiots beat up a conservative Obama gave the order. Does that mean the Republican Party gave the order to kill the Dr. who performed late term abortions?
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Come on, there are nuts on both sides it doesn't mean our current president or our former president are respo
nsible for either.
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WOW?!?!

TRUECITIZEN:
"Why don't these bureaucrats do something about the true-few instead of these crazy theories of blanket-style hand-outs?"
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Isn't that what a government OPTION for health insurance intended to do?
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Obama is trying to do EXACTLY what you asked for but you are falling for the Limbaugh, Hannity, Fox News lies.
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I could be wrong, for the first time ever Hannity, Limbaugh, Fox News, etc... could be telling the truth about Health Insurance Reform but I doubt it. The WMD crowd is liking lying to us again and many are, again, falling in line with the marching orders.
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I am sure RAF will follow me and respond to this again but here is A memo, one example of how impromtu these protests are. Here is the objective, from A single source, of the conservative protests to reform that, surprise surprise, YOU WANT.
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Hey, if I turn out to be wrong about what Obama and the dems want then I hope it fails but I find it curious that the same group that complains about Obama trying to "ram this down our throats" before we can read the bill, can now cite a bill that DOES NOT EXIST.
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Check this out...
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uplo...
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BTW, I am not so partisan to say this. If Obama and the Dems. are doing this to avoid TORT reform because they have sold out or if some of the conservatives are correct about the flaws of the bill...I want it fixed. TORT reform is also needed.
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Bottomline, I want everyone to have access to affordable health insurance. Single payer, gov't option, whatever. I don't care what it looks like because I have great insurance but I want everyone to have access to the same great insurance.
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I strongly believe, public education and health insurance are to essentials for every American citizen.
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I believe this coutry is great enough to provide both.

proartist - You haven't "heard" because you most likely get your disinformation from the state run "media" the likes of cnn and msnbc. Does the phrase "We punch back twice as hard" ring a bell? Words out the mouth of your boy. Coincidence that six were arrested at the Russ Carnahan town hall after the St. Louis meeting? This is the one where the union thugs, the SEIU people, beat up a black conservative, 38 years old who was minding his own business selling his buttons, etc. See it for yourself on youtube. Where do you think they got their marching orders from? Just doing a little community organizing as instructed.

THANK YOU, Janesvillean!!

I think I'll take a page from the wingnut playbook here and say, "When you're taking flak, you know you're over the target."
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Clearly the trillion-dollar health insurance industry is going to stop at nothing to prevent losing its gravy train. The people it is using in these demonstrations have been lied to -- even garyprimer, who is pretty smart, thinks he might "lose" his health insurance. No, garyprimer, you will get better health insurance with consumer protections from an industry that employs faceless bureaucrats whose only job is to decide whether to deny care. Meanwhile, those who are trapped in the system and unable to change jobs or obtain private health insurance will now have the opportunity to do so. These are not lazy people. They are people who had no idea they would develop a pre-existing condition, or whose employer withdrew health insurance because of the costs of one or two employees, or who lost a job with insurance and ran out of the COBRA period and now cannot find a job with health insurance. In other words, we have a system that rewards businesses with greater profits by getting rid of people for the most trivial reasons. Of course it's easier to insure people who aren't sick. But that leaves millions of working Americans shut out of our health care system, and when they do receive care, it is in the most expensive way possible -- at the emergency room.
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No other country in the world has a system that punishes the unlucky the way ours does. The money that has flowed to that industry is now being used to bamboozle the country into keeping the spigot turned on all the way.

Disrespectful? These people were just exercising their right to free speech and while doing so making absolutely sure that the people they elected to represent them were totally clear on how they felt about this issue. When it comes down to spending $1.6 trillion of our dollars this is definitely not a matter to be cast aside. The elected representatives should be thankful that their constituents were very clear as to how they wanted this handled......

kettleblack- ""Violence breaks out when Obama orders his thugs to townhall meetings to silence free speech via physical attacks on participants.""....LOL! I haven't heard of the Obama administration doing anything violent nor creating any "free speech zones" like the Bush administration to keep those who disagreed far away from activities where so they won't be seen or heard. Your suggested title is WAY off base and hardly reflective of what is happening at the town hall meetings with elected legislators. Perhaps that's why the majority won't believe these staged "protest" (fear mongering) events and will not be swayed from demanding real health care reform.

And I should feel bad about having the health insurance? I earned it, and did a great deal to get to that point!!!!!!!!!!!! Others simply want hand outs, and very few are truly falling between the cracks. Why don't these bureaucrats do something about the true-few instead of these crazy theories of blanket-style hand-outs? We are so bleeding heart now, that we (not me though) start to put down people who did what they could and got what they earned, and for some reason have to feel bad about it. Backward.....

Evidently, they are so angry they forgot that we vote in this country. These hippies always so dramatic in front of the television cameras, pushing their minority agenda like we don't understand how democracy works, trying to take over like so many brown shirts. What? These aren't a bunch of disrespectful crazy hippies? There're crazy disrespectful Conservatives? How sad. They have become the very thing they detest.

Sounds like somebody has good health insurance and feels entitled to it.

The white house has started keeping track of these demonstrations and stats keeping, as well as possible individual names, in lieu of security threats........It's B.S.! These people are speaking from the heart and are doing so, because their government is running away with power without true representation, and these demonstrators are using the only thing they have left-their voices! Maybe we should all listen, and Washington should be ashamed for trying to spin it all. I also agree with their (the so-called mobs) concerns about this ever-becoming-socialism medical issue.
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Sarab1....there is always a way, but I would rather a few fall between the cracks, than for a government-lead system, which enables thousands to become free-loaders, and medical care begins to decline in value. (Which will happen, if these ultra liberals get their way).

Or this headline... "Violence breaks out when Obama orders his thugs to townhall meetings to silence free speech via physical attacks on participants." "Coummunity organizing" anyone?

fromjanesville2waukesha: What about those who are working two and three jobs and still have no health coverage? Count your blessings. Not everyone is as LUCKY as you.

Perhaps an optionial headline for this article would be "Hardworking taxpayers speak out against giving more money to lazy people."