pudssweetie said: "Did you know that there is a provision in the bill that says that women will be only allowed to have so many children and after that will be forced to have a hysterectomy?"

How many children? What Doctor is going to 'force' a woman to have a hysterectomy? Do you have a brain?

Only an idiot believes everything they read on the interwebs. Keep the ridiculous lies coming though.

Kinsohn and RetiredAirForce, you are both right and now it was announced that if you opt out of the health care plan you will also receive a $3,800.00 fine. Here is a message to all you bots out there who want this health care bill to pass. READ,READ,READ, search and read some more. The information is out there on the web for you to see. All you have to do is take off the blinders long enough to see what is all proposed in this bill. Stop listening to the idiots on CNN and other news channels and start looking things up for yourself. I have seen with my own eyes what is all proposed in this bill and I for one refuse to let the government control my health care and tell me who I can see and how often. I also do not want the government knowing what I have in the bank and is another provision in the bill. Government will have real time access to all your bank accounts so they can automatically take out each and every month money for your health care. Is this not invasion of privacy? It is bad enough that they know how much money a year we all make, but they have no business knowing how much money I have in the bank. Can anyone say COMMUNISM? Did you know that there is a provision in the bill that says that women will be only allowed to have so many children and after that will be forced to have a hysterectomy? Can anyone say China? If I wanted to live in a communist country I would move to one, but this is the United States of America where are are supposed to have freedom speech. freedom of choice, freedom to live anywhere and freedom to do what is in our best interest. Wake up people our freedoms are being taken away and it is time that we stand up to these thugs in congress, fight back and say Hell No to the ridiculous bills they are passing.

Uh, actually, if you 'opt out,' you will end up in prison via the IRS.

proartist, you are seriously miss-informed. Currently you can't OPT OUT of either Medicare or Medicaid, federal law requires money taken from you for these programs. The medical reforms in congress now require ALL to participate, if you don't money will be garnished from you even if you don't see a doctor.

I"m still waiting for everyone who doesn't want health care reform to OPT OUT! That's all you'll have to do to avoid the misperceived "socialized medicine". Simple. Done. In any other "socialized medicine" country, that is how it works. You can STILL buy your own private insurance. It's YOUR choice. Please, don't deny others who truly need health care the care which you're confident you're already receiving. That person may likely be you tomorrow by no fault of your own. To do less is to condemn yet another generation to substandard universal care in a world that is moving on in spite of America's failure to learn.

If the economy is better,fewer people lose their jobs, it only makes sense. If the economy worsens, more layoffs. The sooner the economy is turned around, the sooner the unemployment begins to turn. It will be a long turn, the last two recessions it took 29 and 34 months for employment to return to it`s pre recession level, and they were mild recessions compared to this one.

tired don't even waste your time.

If the economy is better, less people lose their jobs.***
That has to be the most open ended - relative statement I've ever heard. Not to mention incorrect. So if we "only" lose say 499,000 jobs this month then am I to assume we're on the way back up. That would be great - I'll be sure to check those numbers. Wait, what about the 1,000's of unemployed that went back to work part time or had hours cut to less than the month before or gave up looking for a while or took a job at alot lower pay rate than previously, just to have a job - Are they doing "better" too?!!!!

Yes,common sense! If the economy is better, less people lose their jobs. The economists at Goldman/Sachs said in the Wall Street Journal that GDP growth in the third quarter will be 3.3%. Without the stimulus they say it would have been around 0%.

Yes common sense...

No, that comes from the Administration, and common sense. If you stop the bleeding, jobs are saved, IMO.

The letter never mentions a "saved" job estimate.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9987/...

Estimated Macroeconomic Impacts Of H.R. 1 As Passed By The House And Senate, 2/11/09. Letter to Judd Gregg/ Paul Ryan

CBO is a website with many articles. Please point to the report or document you are getting your information from.

CBO is not going to "claim" anything, they estimate, and you know it. They estimated the number of jobs that would be created/saved by the stimulus.

CBO.gov

Your words are not a link to the source.

CBO scoring of the stimulus said 1.6 to 3.4 million saved/created by end of 2010. Wall Street Journal, not a liberal source, admits the stimulus is working. They cite a "consensus" of economists in their article. Can you cite a link where CBO says no jobs have been, or will be, saved/created?

Please provide your link for the CBO claiming a saved job.

This from someone who uses CBO numbers to try and make HIS points? Do you believe in "death panels" too?

Anyone believing a government estimate or political promise of "saved jobs" is brain dead.

Anybody still bringing up "death panels" is brain dead!

CBO estimated 1.6 to 3.4 million jobs being saved or created by the stimulus, with little or no effect on GDP. CBO scored HR3200 as having a $239 billion deficit after 2019, only because of a Medicare Doctor reimbursement clause in the bill, without that, which will be done even if HR3200 doesn`t pass, they score it as having a $6 billion surplus.

for those of you that don't think this Gov't is QUICKLY becoming Socialist read this. This basically declares Martial Law on all residents. I feel like I'm in the middle of Red Square. WE have to stop this insanity. Some people say the Bush administration "shreaded" the Constitution - What is this!!!
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.vie...

http://www.care2.com/causes/health-polic...

darwin; ok, I'm done laughing. Yes, some politicians do lie - on both sides, they say what you want to hear - everybody knows that, but for you sit there and say I lie just makes you a complete ass. Actually what is funny is the irony in your name being your a complete neanderthal - def. neanderthal - boorish: ill-mannered and coarse and contemptible in behavior or appearance; "was boorish and insensitive";
***
What you dont get is there are 3 sides to this - the left, right & those like me who are in the middle. You do nothing for your "cause" by attacking people like me. A lesson you & Obama would benefit from greatly is to NOT isolate & attack those that disagree with you. Although I saw thru his false promises (notice I didnt say lies) & didnt vote for him, INDEPENDENTS are what got him elected & he "forgot" this since he got in office. I say forgot but in reality I think it was in the playbook from day 1 to decieve.

**
you are correct in saying hyperinflation isnt here - yet. Thats because business', contractors & consumers are digging deep into their cash reserves to stay afloat right now. You can get the "best deal" on just about anything you want to buy or have built today than anytime in atleast the last 10 years but when this cash runs out, watchout. Companies will have no choice but to raise prices to make up for it. Its simple economics they have to generate a profit sometime - right now its just about clearing the inventory (freeing up tied up cash) & trying to keep their employees employed - its called survival. You can already see the cash is drying up by the number of bussiness leaving the area - looking for additional ways to cut cost. They've already laid off all they can to keep up production, cut admin, cut overhead in anyway they can & all thats left is labor cost. Obama was correct in one thing he said though, "this will save or create 3 million jobs" - thats about how many will be left when the cash is all gone.

The lies are coming from the left, as in the implication that hyperinflation is not a concern because it's not here yet (predicting weather by looking out your window) and implying that the government takeover of healthcare will reduce costs when in fact the CBO says just the opposite.

If you really believe inflation is not a threat, I suggest you short oil or gold futures which already have inflation baked in - you'll make a bundle if you're right. Otherwise, it's all a lot of left-wing blather.

"my lies" - thats funny!

Yes, tiredofhearingit, let's look beyond facts. Let's look beyond any reality that is very far from any truth. This is because Conservatives don't like the truth: they prefer lies. When the stimulus plan was introduced all Conservatives could talk about is hyperinflation: there was none. Now health care is going to cause hyperinflation everywhere, even though health care is already in double digits.

tiredofhearingit, we are tired of your lies.

Wow, I wish I had me a job where I got paid to "work" all day on the internet to "debate" these things. Seems to me that the energy spent in here debating could be used to lobby on behalf of yourselves and others that believe as you do.

I fold and am throwing in the towel on ALWAYS being within a "debate" on the Gazette's blogs. No offense to the Gazette.

Look beyond the “facts” about health care reform & consider the ramifications of the 8% imposed on all business’ payroll to provide for the Public Option. This is a required fee for all business’ that either don’t currently provide h care or want to put their employees on the p option. This fee will be passed on to the consumer – thus creating a super inflation vacuum with no way out of. Consider everyday items that we all buy everyday. Take a gallon of milk for example: how many different employers (businesses) handle this product before it’s sold. Farmer, Farm Hands, Truck drivers, milk processors, packaging, distribution, grocers / conv. Store. This is atleast 7 different companies that handle the product before its sold – all potentially adding up to 8% to each wage package. Suppose all these employees made $10/hr. This would potentially add $ .80 each multiplied by 7 for a total of $5.70 added to the cost of a gallon of milk which today is approx $3.15. I understand 1 gallon is NOT handled per hour by all levels & this particular example is not realistic but its simple & gives you the general idea of what I’m trying to show– it would be impossible to determine that in a simple blog. However, a portion will have to be factored; other products may very well fit into this category at the full 8% per. Keep in mind that all these business’ will additionally be adding Net operating cost to their product because of overhead items such as lawn care, snow removal, maintenance, raw product cost (what they buy to produce their product) etc. – making it even worse. Then to add even more insult to injury, for products not related to groceries, the end consumer will pay additional Sales Tax reaping Billions to the Fed & State Govt.

In the end, how exactly does this public option then help Americans – particularly Low & Middle Income families? The way I see it, we’ll have rationed H Care but won’t be able to buy anything else because of the cost. Then what happens when 8% is not enough & it’s raised (just like all of our other taxes) to 9,10,11%............. Maybe I’m wrong, are there any economic scholars out there that can explain this situation to me.

Yes darwin those that can not follow laws loose their ability to operate freely in our society. Yet they still have rights. They can still practice religion, speak, and even petition the government.

RAF, sadly you are wrong again. The government CAN take away rights with due process. Try reading it again.

"Zoom, the "factcheck" didn't debunk any of the page by page items I posted."

Huh? You have a reading comprehension problem. Only an idiot believes viral emails.

"End-of-life care discussions include talking about a living will, hospice care, designating a health care proxy and making decisions on what care you want to receive at the end of your life. Doctors do the consulting, not the "government" or a "bureaucracy." The e-mail author’s assertion that the bill calls for "an ORDER from the GOVERNMENT" for end-of-life plans rests on language about a patient drawing up such an order stipulating their wishes, and having that order signed by a physician. There’s nothing about "an order from the government." The bill defines an order for life-sustaining treatment as a document that "is signed and dated by a physician …[and] effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment." See our article "False Euthanasia Claims" for more on such assertions."
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/twenty-...

The "orders" you refer to come from the patient, not a Doctor, not the Government. They are the patients wishes as to how his/her treatment should proceed in an end-of-life situation. To take this and try to make it into some sort of government intervention is ludicrous. This counseling, by a Doctor/Physicians assistant/Nurse Practitioner, not a government official, is in the 2003 Medicare bill, and offered by some insurance companies, WellPoint as an example

onedayatattime: Page 426 - an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include—. Page 430 - the intensity of medical intervention if the
patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;
-
So, 3200 calls them "orders", and they cite the word about 30 times. I didn't add anything to it, nor did I claim that seniors be given euthanasia counseling. I do recommend everyone read the entire bill.

In response to lovemycountry....page 429 and 430‘ What you stated that was specified• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
What was actually specified (ii) effectively communicates the individual’s
18 preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, 19 in
cluding an indication of the treatment and care 20 desired by the individual;
If you are going to cite this bill, at least quote it and don't put you own spin on it. So many of the people, such as yourself, who are against any kind of reform are simply fear mongering. Did you think that no one would actually go and read what you are claiming is in the bill. How is anyone supposed to make a informed decision when there is so much blatant distortion of the truth such as you have put out there. So the many lines you "quoted" are simply your distortions of the truth.

Here's how to bring down the costs of healthcare from 20/20...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ8SkS0kOe8

“Rights are documents that tell the government what it can't do, not what it can.”

A liberal explanation like this is laughable. A right is something a person has irrespective of the government. A right, described in those precious documents is something the government can not take a way. There is not one right you have that requires any action by another…as was designated by our founding fathers.

Take for instance your right to life. It is yours, and not the governments. It does not take any action away from others for you to life, nor does it take action by the government to support.

The “twisting” of the document by those that want government sponsored healthcare attempt to explain your right to life relies on healthcare and the government…when this is the complete opposite of how our democracy was founded.

A right requires no action from others for you to have, and protects you from the government, as it should be.

"The insurance company is beholden to it's shareholders, the government to it's voters."

At least the insurance companies LISTEN to their shareholders.

They do pay taxes. They pay sales taxes and property taxes if they rent. Just not sales taxes on groceries - ha ha. The two comments made by Conservatives here were completely wrong. How exactly does Health Care reform end democracy? The Constitution and Bill of Rights are documents that tell the government what it can't do, not what it can.

I have heard that border jumping/ baby popping is a new tourist destination for women in their third trimester. DizzyGirl, how is that even remotely true. I worked with predominantly Hispanic people at one job: they work hard and don't whine like some ethnic groups who are always trying to make others out to be scapegoats for their stupidity.

"if they pay taxes they ought to be able to participate. Not many will because they tend to keep a low profile to keep from being deported."
-
Well, that's what you do with them, deport them back to their home country. Most don't pay taxes and you know it. I worked for a company in Sterling, VA (construction-related), and out of twenty employees, only three were caucasian. The rest were Hispanic, and only two spoke English. They were all paid under the table. One of the reasons I left the company. The owner was a crook, but not unlike many other business owners in the D.C. area, which is RIFE with illegal foreign nationals. Note that I did not say "immigrants." That's another nice perk for them that you mentioned, BTW. All they have to do in order to make us pay for them the rest of their lives is to hop the border and pop out a couple babies. Nice.... Ellis Island reinvented.

"Coverage for illegals will not change , UNLESS they buy insurance like the rest of us. Are you going to deny them coverage if they purchase insurance?"
-
Yes!! I would deny them coverage because they are here ILLEGALLY IN THE U.S.!! What a nice set-up for them....They get all the benefits of U.S. Citizenship without all the taxes.

"The bottom line is the government would have the control over our health decisions, not the patient and doctor."

That's a lie. If you actually read HR3200, or at least an independant analysis of the bill, instead of relying on viral emails, you might learn something.

Unless you don't need insurance and pay for all of your medical bills out-of-pocket, some bureaucrat in an insurance company decides what medical services are covered by your plan, or how much they will pay, which effects what medical procedures you will choose. The insurance company is beholden to it's shareholders, the government to it's voters.

Andre,
The Dems are so disorganized right now it's not even funny. Obama can't even keep his people in order. He needs to start wearing the pants. It seems Pelosi and Reid run the show.

Its sickening to see folks who want to use Ted's Kennedy's death as a measns to push healthcare reform. They can't seem to get it done by themselves. Yes, thats them. Go figure.

AMEN!!

Yeah, and what where all the things this administration said about the stimulus bill that haven't panned out? I don't know why all this debate is going on anyway. The democrats control both houses of congress and their president ready to sign it. They said they didn't need republican support. Just what are they waiting for? If it is so great, pass it and live with the consequences. Maybe it is the consequences that have them spooked. If it is a failure they will hold all the blame.

According to a press release from the House Ways and Means Committee, only LEGAL residents will be able to get the credits to help purchase health insurance under HR3200.

Setting some "rules"!? Now who is playing on words?

If setting some rules for health care insurance is "running" it, yes! Let`s keep discussing the proposed legislation, and when ,and if, they come up with a bill, then we`ll really have something to discuss.

This government that you want to do a better job of verifying social security numbers. Is that the same government that you think should be running the nations health care?

RAF, the government is not going to be paying for health care for all the people, just helping with some of the costs of insurance. It will not be a government takeover. It will not be less than they are paying now, nobody said that it would without a single-payer system.

It can`t be explained by a "play on words", lies are still being told about the counseling. As for immigration, prosecute the employers. No jobs, no immigration. Granted, the government has to do a better job of verifying SS numbers, but the biggest problem is the using of undocumented workers to help the employers bottom line.

Pharm, question for you. There are a total of ~ 90 million people in this country in Medicaid and Medicare; ~ 1/3 of our population. Total health care spending is ~2.3 trillion. Medicaid and Medicare account for ~ 1 trillion dollars of that spending.

If our government already runs programs that account for over 40% of total healthcare spending with 1/3 the population, how does adding 2/3 more account to them spending less money than is already spent (aggregate total)?

The $1,600,000,000,000 bill that the taxpayers will have to pick up is reason enough to walk away from this "reform"......

Your comment about "death panels" has been explained by playing on words by both sides and you know it. As for when illegal immigration started, I would say after the laws were enacted to control it, or is that too hard for you to grasp?
+
And your solution to illegal immigration would be? Just ignore those that break the law? Are there any laws you know of that legal citizens can just ignore?
+
Do you think that the laws governing this country should be enforced, or are they just "guide lines" to follow?

"http://www.atr.org/obama-care-cost-trillion-a3641#"
+
This is a link to the costs for the TAX payers.
+
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinio...
+
This is a link disputing obama saying illegals won't be covered.
+
Does anyone really think that tax payer money won't be used in coverage for illegals?

When was the start of the current problem, 1900, 1800, 1980`s when Reagan granted amnesty? So you want to deport them, keep their kids, bill(laughable) some other country, what a wonderful solution! Yes, there is misinformation from both sides, but the outright lies seem to be coming from one side, see "death panels', a government takeover(4%?) of health care in a public option.

pharm, we deport them. Then we bill their country of origin for caring for their children. Then we amend the constitution so that the children of illegals don't automatically become citizens. If the issue of illegal immigration had been dealt with from the start the current problem would have been corrected already. That is what we should also do with the health care issue. Treat them, deport them, and bill their country of origin for the costs.
+
".misinformation can be a dangerous thing."
+
Can we assume that this is directed at both sides of the issue, or just the side you take?

Don't let DC make your health care choices. Here are several other options for needed reform.
www.cprights.org
-
The best reform will control costs and get coverage for the uninsured 3% of American citizens.

Actually, I have never expressed an opinon on here about immigration, we were talking about what is/is not in the proposed legislation. Let me ask you a question, if we could miraculously find every illegal in the country and deport them, their children born here, under the Constitution, are citizens, do we raise them with our tax money, or deport legal citizens? If McCain had won, his plan for a health care tax credit would have gone to anyone filing a return, the same as what is proposed under the Obama plan, they check your financials before hand. Illegal or not, if they pay taxes they ought to be able to participate. Not many will because they tend to keep a low profile to keep from being deported.

Pharm: Excellent job! Thanks for trying to keep the truth in this debate...misinformation can be a dangerous thing.
+

" Are you going to deny them coverage if they purchase insurance? Would you deny them coverage now if they buy insurance?"
+
What they should be is deported and forced to enter the country legally if they want to be here. You don't agree with that I take it.

pharm, and just why should illegals be allowed to participate in the first place? What part of illegal is so hard for you to understand? If the goal is to dispute the "myth" that illegals will get coverage, then why not put that provision in the bill specifically stating that the bill is for legal residents of the US only and illegals are barred? Why not have that language to dispel the "myth"? There is a reason that the language is ambiguous.

Did you read it? It says exactly what I said. Coverage for illegals will not change , UNLESS they buy insurance like the rest of us. Are you going to deny them coverage if they purchase insurance? Would you deny them coverage now if they buy insurance? I don`t hide in the shadows, I logged on before going to bed and your post was the top one in the thread

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinio...

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_11...
+
Here it is pharm, now explain it to us.

pharm, tell me wise guy, what IS in the bill? You think you know so much about it, come on show us your knowledge about a bill that isn't even finished. Speak up sage.

If you can show me ,or anybody, where it says illegals will be covered ,any more than they are now without having to buy insurance, do it, otherwise be prepared to be called when you make an untrue statement.

pharm, don't be telling me what to post or not to post. Tell your liberal democrat cohorts to start telling the truth, if that is possible. Since you know so much about the bill, then give me all the details proposed and tell me which ones are going to be written in stone. I like the way you hang in the shadows and just show up for certain peoples comments.

If the reform was a financial wash that would be one thing, but adding well over a trillion dollars to the skyrocketing load of debt that the government keeps throwing at the taxpayers makes extensive government intervention in this segment completely unacceptable......Thankfully people are rallying against this and the momentum has shifted......

Zoom, the "factcheck" didn't debunk any of the page by page items I posted. A "Health Commissioner" bureaucrat would, under 3200, make all of these decisions for our healthcare. The bottom line is the government would have the control over our health decisions, not the patient and doctor.

Under HR3200 illegals will not get any more coverage than they do now, emergency care, unless they purchase insurance like the rest of us. Don`t be spreading those rumors andre.

zoom, the people who don't pay taxes, and people that are here illegally will be paid for by the tax payers, what part of that don't you understand? Show me where in the constitution it says that the government should provide or pay for health care for the citizens! I, along with many others, don't want government run health care. The destruction of private health insurance is one of the goals of this monstrosity of a bill. Here in obama's own words is his intention.
+
http://www.breitbart.tv/uncovered-video-...
+
Government run programs are in trouble across the board, why would anyone want to trust the government with their health care? Why also do the democrats continue to blame republicans for the problems they are having getting support for this fiasco. They don't need republicans, they control both houses of congress and have their president ready to sign the bill. Do it if it such a great idea. They know that when it fails, and it will, they alone will be responsible and pay the price. They won't be able to blame republicans like they always try to do, that's why they don't want to go it alone.

"they can be treated, but they should receive the bill, not the tax payer."

Who ever said people shouldn't be billed for services, or be obligated to pay them? You continue to spread the fear that somehow a public option will allow millions of people to get free health care. That is not the case. The goal is to make health care more affordable for everyone, so more people can pay for insurance. If we continue on the path we are on now, fewer and fewer people will be paying the unpaid medical bills of more and more people.

"It's amazing how glib you can be about someone else's life, as if you could never be poor, or need assistance from others."
+
This is quite an assumption on your part that I have never been poor or needed assistance. I have been in both situations and survived. Again I will point out that helping the poor, or giving assistance should be a choice, not a government mandate. I have donated time and money to charities for years. I did it by choice, my choice, not the governments.

zoom, they can be treated, but they should receive the bill, not the tax payer. I know we are paying now, but that doesn't mean it is right nor that I agree with it. Just like if someone fails to pay for a tangible item they buy, then put liens against them until their medical bills are paid BY THEM,not the "neighbor" no matter how long that takes. Contrary to what many believe, I am not my "brothers" keeper unless I choose to be. It's called freedom of choice not government forced. If you feel obligated, then go to the hospital and tell them to send you someones unpaid bills, but telling or wanting someone else to be liable shouldn't be government mandated.

By the way, yes, I do feel obligated to help the poor. I give a percentage of my income every month to do just that. I am, however, getting tired of double digit increases in the cost of my health care every year, and I would like to have medicare, or something like it, around if I need it after I retire. It's amazing how glib you can be about someone else's life, as if you could never be poor, or need assistance from others.

andre, are you proposing that we deny basic medical care to everyone without health insurance? We should check everyone at the door to the emergency room to make sure they can pay? That is really the only way to prevent you from paying for your "neighbors" $50,000 hospital bill, in the form of higher costs for services. In the end, you ARE paying for those without insurance, because it's AGAINST THE LAW to deny people emergency care.

"Nobody is proposing that universal health care will be free for a huge percentage of the population."
+
What percentage do you consider "huge", and why should the tax payer be liable for any percentage that doesn't pay any tax at all? Why should the tax payer be liable for illegal aliens period? Here is a scenario for you. If your next door neighbor came to you and said they received a bill from the hospital for 50,000.00 dollars and needed help paying it and wanted you to help them, would you? Would you feel obligated in any way? Should you be required to help them? That is what people are now asking the tax payer(neighbor) to do.

"But how, and why, do I have a LEGAL OBLIGATION to pay the medical bills of every American?"

Guess what, YOU ALREADY DO PAY, in the most inefficient way possible! Who do you think pays when someone goes to the emergency room and can't pay thousands of dollars in medical bills? Everyone else does, in the form of higher costs. Only about 4% of Americans live in a household where NOBODY works. Unfortunately, there are millions of Americans that either can't get insurance through their employer, can't afford private insurance, are denied coverage by insurance companies, or simply won't pay for insurance. Nobody is proposing that universal health care will be free for a huge percentage of the population.

lovemycountry's cutting and pasting of a viral email adds absolutely nothing to the debate. Here is the debunking of that email list:

A notorious analysis of the House health care bill contains 48 claims. Twenty-six of them are false and the rest mostly misleading. Only four are true.
August 28, 2009
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/twenty-...

When I got home this morning and was going through the mail I opened a new issue of VFW magazine. On page ten there is an interesting one paragraph article stating the VA has a backlog of over 905,000 outstanding claims, as of July 18th, up 15% from last year. “VA’s backlog includes over 737,000 unprocessed claims---of which about 20% had been pending beyond 180 days---and approximately 173,000 appeals awaiting decision." And people still want more government involvement in health care?

Red, the main problem with your solution is that it scares the hell out of 100 million or so Americans, who then vigorously oppose anything and everything else you have to say. I liked Pete's credit card analogy. Medicare is also like a credit card. What if, instead of a credit card, Medicare was more like a debit card, with a fixed lifetime benefit credited to each recipient? In this way, each recipient is motivated to become a more conscientious consumer of healthcare. That factor alone would dramatically drive down cost and greatly reduce fraud. Add the ability to transfer a credit balance from one recipient to another and the element of charity would become an integral part of the Medicare system.

You all need to call Paul Ryan and tell him to get the federal government out of health care by ending medicare NOW. Why the heck should taxpayers be on the hook for seniors living to be 100 years old; seniors demanding joint replacements, cancer treatements and all the other expensive medical stuff that this country can't afford. Yes, let's get government out of health care by ending medicare now.

lovemycountry
I don't know where you cut and pasted your propaganda from but it is full of half truths.
All a person has to do is open the link provide by andre_linoge to see the complete meaning of the sections that you provided and not a twisted version. It is unfortunate that so many people are to lazy to read the entire bill and instead believe someones twisted version.

My mom and dad were from another country. They did not speak English very well. My mom had a 6th grade education and my dad never went to school. In my early school years, I remember being on AFDC, food stamps, participated in the free cheese program etc. We were definitely below the poverty line. We benefited from a lot of the public assistance government programs. However, my mom and dad eventually got ok jobs where they could start earning ok money. They worked hard and eventually did not need the governments assistance. I graduated from high school and got a college education and now have a decent job. The problem we have is that we have too many people that keep sucking the system of public assistance with taxpayer money. Yes, I admit my family was using alot of taxpayer money but we got out of that "governemnt needs to support me" mode. The war on poverty has been going on since the Lyndon Johnson years and we are still fighting it. If we keep sending that signal that the government will take care of you people will become dependent on it and have no incentive to work hard or make a better life for themselves. Yes, there are people who cannot help themselves and I do not have a problem with that. It's the ones who abuse the system and keep thinking that somwhere in the Constitution it states that "general welfare" means entitlements to free government money.

"But how, and why, do I have a LEGAL OBLIGATION to pay the medical bills of every American?"
-
In a democracy, you don't, and shouldn't.

I have always, and still do, identify myself as a liberal. So I know that what I am going to write may cause some others, mainly other people who consider themselves as liberals, to diallow me that title. But I was always led to believe that our public assistance programs were there to help those who were in the most dire need, and were unable to help themselves. I, like most people, I think, am not only willing, but eager to help such people. But EVERY American? That's the part that I can't get my head around. As an individual, I may be, in fact am, willing to do as much as I am able to do to assist in providing for those who meet those two criteria--they have a dire need, and they can't help themselves. But how, and why, do I have a LEGAL OBLIGATION to pay the medical bills of every American?

"45.7 million people in the US (15.3% of the population) who were without health insurance for at least part of that year."

Note the routine half-truths put forth by Dems and faithfully regurgitated by state-run media: "people" and not "Americans." Tens of millions of that number are illegal immigrants, or as libs call them, "undocumented."

The number also includes millions covered by medicare and medicaid that aren't enrolled (but can be at any time, effectively providing them insurance.)

It also includes people who lost a job in one month and got one the next.

It also includes millions of people that haven't paid their Cobra premiums when laid off, but can choose to pay them in arrears if they get sick.

Most lefties don't know this because their thought leaders have determined it best they remain ignorant of these facts. Not helpful to the borg.

• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
• Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_11...
+
HR 3200

H.R.3200 before you praise this thing read it or try to. It is nothing more than the government using our desire for Health Care reform as bait. Underneath this is a trap and a system to steal away our wealth and freedom. The same thing is in the Cap & Trade bill. WAKE UP OR BE CHAINED. When they say the Devil is in the details or what is missing from them.
Look under the Bill folks..its a trap!

“It’s a complete travesty,” Torres said of government-run health care. “If we allow this to pass, it’s the first step to the end of our democracy.”

First of all, the United States of America is not a democracy, it is a Republic!

Second, if you think that this is the beginning of the end of our Republic you really haven't been paying attention. This isn't the first step it is the last step.

The illegal, unconstitutional federal reserve, the government takeover of the automobile industry, the bailouts, medicare, medicaid, unauthorized warrants, the patriot act, unguarded borders, the end of habeous corpus, fema camps, the list goes on and on. Sorry Mr, Torres but what country have you been living in lately. I certainly don't recognize mine anymore. How did we get here? The crowd of people at the Janesville town hall meeting thought the constitution was a dirty word when Mr. Ryan was held accountable to it. They were literally horrified. It is no wonder why we are where we are.

I thought I WAS being politically active, proartist. (I hope I'm not entirely wasting my time posting here.) I do tell my legislators what I think on occasion and have never missed voting a single election, including the "worthless" primaries. In fact, I have proposed an innovative governmental solution or two that were implemented and subsequently copied by other jurisdictions. As for running for office... ROTFL! Regardless, would you want me deciding how you spend your money, being the benevolent entity that I am?

fool_on_the_hill:"I can't choose to not do business with the feds.".....No, but you CAN become politically active, you can vote, you can let your legislators know what you think in myriad of ways, and you can even run for office to draft your own legislation :-)

Red- I agree ! How wonderful it would be not to have our country heading to financial (read currency) ruin because of bankrupt, unconstitutional, entitlement programs ?

To RAF @ 10:20am--- if you honestly want to know where Paul Ryan's funding comes from, research www.opensecrets.org.

Proartist, I totally understand where you are coming from but totally disagree with your perceived solution. The flaw in your argument is that you presume government to be some sort of benevolent force serving the best interests of all Americans. How did you feel about the benevolence of the federal government during most of this new millennium? Even if Washington was totally benevolent, it certainly isn't very likely to serve the interests of each and every individual American simultaneously, is it?

There is nothing inherently good or evil about either government or business. However, I can choose to not do business with Cigna or Merck but I can't choose to not do business with the feds. That is the essence.

Let's get big government out of health care. Let's end medicare. That will take care of the deficit spending. While we're at it let's get rid of social security too. Imagine how much higher wages would be without withholdind social security taxes. You senior citizens want the government out of health care? Me too. Let's end medicare and all the other useless government give aways. Seniors step aside. The time has come to end medicare.

The bulk of pharmaceutical R&D is already from the tax-payer and charitable giving. Advertising and lobbying is a far more gigantic portion of pharmaceutical costs when it comes to R&D and their own corporate dollar.

writergirl: "...very real fear that if you GIVE the government control of your health care, you’re also GIVING them the right to deny you health care."... Anyone who currently has "health care" coverage knows this is already the STANDARD in corporate America. CEOs care nothing about your health and everything about profit and loss. If the government (i.e. the PEOPLE!) has greater control of UNIVERSAL health care, there is opportunity to serve ALL those who, through no fault of their own (i.e. children, under-and-unemployed, elderly poor, etc.), have NO options whatsoever.

janesvillemom; I stand corrected on this particular drug, but I still think the point should be made that more Gov't will hurt rather than help health care

Macdaddy, to answer your question about why the elderly are against it, perhaps it has to do with a very real fear that if you GIVE the government control of your health care, you’re also GIVING them the right to deny you health care. When you’re 65 and you develop a completely unforeseen condition that requires you to get an organ transplant, and a 25 year old with a completely preventable condition also requires that same organ, who do you think is going to get it? Please, take a look: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/life-... do you really think the government is going to look at each individual when it comes to who gets what treatment, and then make a decision?! No, what’s going to happen is the government is going to make generalities, and if you happen to fall in the group of “too bad, so sad” that’s just your own problem to deal with because the CHOICE will no longer be yours. Socialized medicine is NOT the answer, it’s a system that is already failing: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...

http://www.chelationtherapyonline.com/te...
*
I guess the generic/OTC things are closely related and they only try for OTC when their patent runs out. So it is based more on the company profits, than it is on the FDA, who only approves drugs for OTC if the company petitions them to do it.

Duh, I misread your conversation...you were talking OTC and I was thinking generic. Sorry!

tired, Claritin was NOT kept from becoming a generic by the FDA, it was by the patent that the big pharma had on it, protecting their profits. I do understand that they need to recoup their investment in R&D, but it seems like they MORE than do that, WAY more!

proartist; Claritin - do you see the dbl standard your appying - it was held up by the GOV'T waiting for FDA approval - and you want More Gov't!

FOTH; lets hope he gets that megaphone & works - not talk or organize - his way to the White House someday

lakennedy; Sorry, I should have been a little more general. I was trying to add to YOUR point & WE should all be careful what we wish for. not intended to be directed at you.

Yes health care needs fixing, but do you really want to buy something that isn't even written onto paper yet just to buy a plan? Maybe obama should come up with a plan so we know what we are getting and not just some jack in the box where you have no idea what it is till that box opens up.Get a real plan so we have something we can say yes to rather than push this stack of papers past our eyes while they are closed ... most people aren't fools that will buy something without knowing what it is they are getting, i'm no fool anyways ... are you?

jviers77 - 45.7 million uninsured. That number is, however, a "snapshot" of a nation in which more than 20 million working Americans change jobs every year. Many of them are briefly uninsured between jobs.
-
Almost 39 percent of the uninsured are in five states -- Florida, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California, all of which are entry points for immigrants. About 21 percent -- 9.7 million -- of the uninsured are not citizens. Up to 14 million are eligible for existing government programs -- Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, veterans' benefits, etc. -- but have not enrolled. And 9.1 million have household incomes of at least $75,000 and could purchase insurance. Those last two cohorts are more than half of the 45.7 million.
-
Insuring the perhaps 20 million persons who are protractedly uninsured because they cannot afford insurance is conceptually simple: Give them money -- (refundable) tax credits or debit cards (which have replaced food stamps)
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/article...

proartist: You're right, perhaps the timing of the meeting had something to do with the lack of representation from my generation...Regarding the rest of your post...I have no idea what you're talking about. You seem to be assuming a lot of things...where I get my news, why I attended the session, etc. Let me clear a few things up for you. For starters, I don't watch FOX news. Secondly, I attended that session because I don't know. I want to learn more about the proposed legislation and Ryan's issues with it...that's why I went. I even stood up and asked a question alluding to that. I really don't know, but I at least don't pretend like I do, and am making an effort to find out, which is more than I can say about you and your posts..your constant attacks and uneducated assumptions about other people...especially those who don't agree with you are stiffling any sort of honest debate. It doesn't help, it hurts.
+
tiredofhearingit: It's nice that we agree on something, but I don't know what has led you to believe that I want the legislation to pass in its current form...it's a silly assumption.

lovemycountry...
*
I don't know where you get your "facts", but you're missing quite a few people in your statistics. It's lies and misinformation like the stuff you're putting on this thread that cause folks to look at things a little skewed, or through Fox News colored glasses. Here is the correct statistic...
*
According to the United States Census Bureau, in 2007 there were 45.7 million people in the US (15.3% of the population) who were without health insurance for at least part of that year. With unemployment and outsourcing, these numbers have been increasing since 2007.
*
It is nice to see that most of us agree that a change needs to be made in our current system. Now, if we can all just come to some compromise on a plan, the US will be better off. I do agree with Congressman Ryan that fixing cost and availability are the 2 most important problems to tackle with health care. I do not believe, however, that we're going to be forced to all have the same plan and see only the doctors we're told and be treated for only what some beaurocrat feels we neede to be treated for. That is all propoganda, fearmongering, and at best, conjecture.
*
Also, The costs of treating the uninsured must often be absorbed by providers as charity care, passed on to the insured via cost shifting and higher health insurance premiums, or paid by taxpayers through higher taxes...In other words, we who are insured are already paying for the uninsured, and the health care reform plans are trying to fix this.

Maybe these new hill people are just the old unflatlanders, DiGriz. It's all a matter of perspective.

According to some enlightened commentisto in "the Bible Camp thread that will never die" - the hill people are going to rise. Maybe they'll pay for everyone's health insurance?? Sounds like an un-tapped demographic we need to explore further. I wonder what they look like?

It surprises me that you are only 29, lakennedy. (That was a compliment.) I noticed the gray hair in that photo, too. A big factor is retirees have more time available during working hours. Rep. Ryan needs a much bigger venue and/or megaphone.

Americans have spoken. The majority are against THIS proposed healthcare bill. Let's control costs and get coverage for the uninsured 3%, but not with more government running our lives and higher taxes taking our prosperity.
-
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c...

Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C.S Lewis

Your point? I also remember how Claritin (for allergies) was an over-the-counter, far less expensive drug in Europe years before it was allowed to be over-the-counter in the US letting the drug companies and medical community reap profits by keeping it prescription only. There are numerous safe drugs that have been benefiting European/Canadian patients for decades that are still not allowed for use in the US.

"Everybody points to Canada's health care system as terrible yet they live longer than us and have lower infant mortality rates while spending half what we do on health care"
-
It's because they eat more maple syrup and drink LaBatt's Blue from birth...

I also have friends in the UK. Or maybe "had" friends is a better way to put it. Drugs which are FDA approved in the US are often not used in socialized medicine countries as they are deemed "not cost effective". (This means the disease is not common and the drugs are expensive.) A friend died from a disease as medicine was not made available due to the cost. Other friends in the US with the same disease take the drugs and are living beautiful tax-paying lives. I don't think it is any governments' responsibility or right to chose the value of a life.

"Any man who has the brains to think and the nerve to act for the benefit of the people of the country is considered a radical by those who are content with stagnation and willing to endure disaster."
-- William Randolph Hearst
(1863-1951) American newspaper publisher.

janesvillemom - the woman who lived in Britain also said: "I was surprised doctors don't make housecalls in the U.S. In Britian, a doctor shows up at our house ten minutes after we call." (She must have had the super duper premium socialized medicine package)

As a member of the younger generation, I would have loved to have attended this session. However, I was not aware of the date and time, and I also had to work all day!

Proartist.......I am a member of the "younger" group who couldn't make Ryan's meeting. This has been a topic of discussion in the office where I work. Many of the "thirtysomethings" that I work with--all well educated and in the loop as to what's going on w/ our government--are completely against the government getting involved to the extent that it wants to in this market segment. Forget looking at Canada and England and their respective systems--focus on our government's track when it comes to involvement in these social matters. THEY ARE COMPLETELY INEPT AND HAVE FAILED MISERABLY TIME AND TIME AGAIN!!!! Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Amtrak, USPS--we have entire states that are going broke--yet we want to give our government access to trillions of dollars to reshape 1/6 of our economy......Seriously--get a clue!!!!!

Did anyone listen to the podcast clip on the side of the article? Great comment from a woman who has lived in the US and Great Britain.

lakennedy; "Either way, it is troubling. Especially since it's my generation and our sons and daughters who will have to live with the consequences of this legislation..."
We finally agree on something. Just be careful in what it is you wish for - nothing is free & there WILL be dire consequences if this bill passes in its current form.

andre_linoge----Everybody points to Canada's health care system as terrible yet they live longer than us and have lower infant mortality rates while spending half what we do on health care; so it must not be too bad. By the way I spend my summers in Canada (Sioux Narrows) to be exact and I can see the Dr. on any Tuesday for $25.00 and the day he is not in Sioux Narrows, I can see him at his office in Kenora for the same $25.00. Try that in the U.S.

proartist do you have any facts to back your comments?

I was reading his slide in the background of the photo...HUH? The first sentence makes no sense (grammatically). The middle sentences seem somewhat supportive, or at least just descriptive of the bill(cutting costs, researching best treatments) and the last sentence is a GIANT LEAP to something that looks like rationing and eliminating innovation! I thought it was a listening session, not a brainwashing with bad logic session!

Mr. Scott - "Paul should be able to mop the floor with her today!"......A mop well-finance, bought and paid for by the status quo insurance lobby and related corporate interests ;-)

Paul Ryan is debating Gwen Moore in Milwaukee today, the same Gwen Moore who admitted she basically hasn't ready much more than the heading of the bill, and the same Gwen Moore who would only field pre-screened questions at her townhall meetings. Paul should be able to mop the floor with her today!

canada medicine- I have mentioned this before:

My relatives daughter lives there
She went to the hospital to have here baby and they said your obease. to treat you have to abort the baby. She said NOT- went to two others and they said the same thing. went to a doctor that isnt under the plan or whatever they call it and had her baby

You won't believe who gave the for-profit insurance companies all the power; the federal government! 1973 HMO Act
-
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=281...

rockstars & lakekennedy - Perhaps there weren't a lot of "younger" people in the audience because 1) They're out working trying to retain the too expensive and too lacking catastrophic disease insurance they currently have; 2) They actually WANT reform and know trying to educate Ryan is totally hopeless; 3) They are not willing to accept the fearmonging others already in-the-system/getting benefits have bought into; and more. As for all the other negative articles about health care in Europe and Canada? Hmmmmm...have you done a comprehensive search of AMERICAN care news stories demonstrating our ever worsening situation compared to them or do you just listen to the lies on FOX News? Do you understand news about our higher infant mortality and more? As noted earlier and needs repeating often, it is human nature to complain about any health care system but intelligence is demonstrated when you acknowledge that you can share and learn from what works in other cultures instead of blindly chanting ad infinitum "We're #1."

rockstars; possible resons for the attendance figures. 1.Some people dont believe Washington is even listening - so "why bother" particularily now that the Dem's have come up with this "nuclear option" & forcing it thru
2. Not everybody wants to be portrayed as "a right wing nut" just for simply voicing their opinion / opposition - particularily in a "union town"

"what's left of the baby boomers": What? do you realize how many of them there are? alot of the baby boomers havent even hit retirement yet. http://www.bbhq.com/bomrstat.htm

lovemycountry: There are two sides to your posts...Here's just one link, but there are thousands, literally thousands, similar to these stories.
+
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/11/opinio......

Doctors, trade unions and others have called national protests against French health-care cutbacks this year.
-
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12495804...

lovemycountry: There are two sides to your posts...Here's just one link, but there are thousands, literally thousands, similar to these stories.
+
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/11/opinio...

United Kingdom: 701,000 births last year. 4,000 is little over 1/2 percent.
And wasn't there a birth in a car in the interstate right here in WI a couple weeks ago? Guess that means there are overcrowding problems here too!!!! OH NOS!!

rockstars: I noticed that too. I'm 29, and went to the listening session at Craig. I was shocked by how poorly my generation was represented in the audience. I saw a handful of people under 60 there. I'm not sure if it's because there is a general lack of civic engagement in my generation, or because for the most part, we still have our health and this isn't a pressing issue to so many younger citizens. Either way, it is troubling. Especially since it's my generation and our sons and daughters who will have to live with the consequences of this legislation...

Canada's top doctor: Health care system 'imploding'...
-
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadia...

Can I just point something out? Why is Ryan's town hall filled with what appears to be 60+ year old residents? Are these the only people opposing health care reform? It's what I'm seeing in so many of the pictures. What's left of the baby boomers appear to be the ones opposing this.
.
Just something I noticed. Not saying it's good or bad. Just sorta weird.

United Kingdom: Bed shortage forces 4,000 mothers to give birth in lifts, offices and hospital toilets
-
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...

hannah: Why do myths always seem to perpetuate while facts get drowned out? My dear British friends recently bitterly complained about the cost of their annual dental cleaning, checkup and x-rays with a final out-of-pocket of a whopping $26. Yes, their taxes are higher...but the other hidden costs are MUCH lower when compared to the U.S. It's human nature to complain but they would NEVER swap their health care for our limited "disease" care. All women are afforded FREE annual mammograms. Doctors office visits (timely and comprehensive with doctor of choice) and prescriptions are the equivalent of $5 out of pocket. As another friend experienced, her end of life care (after living 13 years with leukemia) which included 3 months in the hospital, doctors, and many meds left her family with a final bill for all expenses of $0. When I visit, I am also covered under the National Health Service even though I'm not British! If this type of UNIVERSAL care costs a bit more upfront rather than lining CEO pockets so they can keep lobbying the government for the status quo while denying coverage to patients, then Americans are incredibly foolish not to LEARN from this and the other 20+ developed nations far ahead of us who seem to "get it".

Thank you for that link, dogs_rule. Very enlightening! Dr. Emanuel's position is both rational and necessary in a system of truly socialized medicine, where decisions should be made in the best interest of the collective, not the individual. (Nothing wrong with that, if you're a socialist.) However, this inevitably leads to central planning (totalitarianism) to prevent such system from collapsing under its own weight. I respect him for speaking the truth. With any economic system, he who pays the piper should call the tune.

Thanks to Medicare, Medicaid, etc, we are already headed toward central planning. The current reform strategy will just get us there a lot sooner. The only alternative is to start moving toward a freer market instead of away from one. John Stossel has some thoughts on that: http://www.reason.com/news/show/135727.h... At this time, Paul Ryan appears to be the only elected official offering us any hope of moving in the proper direction.

(Incidentally, I have received individual responses from both Ryan and Feingold. Kohl's office hasn't ever acknowledged receipt but they did harvest my e-mail address to spam me with unrelated propaganda.)

Kiowa - actually, this issue MIGHT be exactly what's needed. If the Democrats just ram health reform down our throats, they will pay dearly for it come next election day. This isn't the first time it's been tried....Maybe term limits are not as far away as one might think?

Blah blah blah health care reform. "Just keep you government hands off my medicare" one conservative said in a meeting a few weeks ago. This country is too stupid to realize how bad the insurance industry and health care industry are screwing you.

Janesvillean....I completely disagree with you. The points that people are fixated on are very real. The over $1,000,000,000,000 cost that the taxpayers will be burdened with as well as the government's historically disastrous track record of implementing and managing these social programs.......It's great that people are becoming more informed and standing up for what they believe is right.....

Have to give credit to Ryan for at least holding the town hall meetings, and many of them. Many representatives are running under their desk. Tammy Baldwin had her meeting teleconferenced, and Gwen Moore had all her questions screened. Funny that supporters of this plan are acting like Ryan and company are obstructing this. The Republicans don't have any power what so ever. The Democrats can ram this through with their huge majorities, if they just stick together. Granted it will be a political, and economic disaster, but who cares? National health care has been the dream of the left for decades. Pass it while you have the power. The ship is going down no matter what you do at this point.

Most of the things people seem to be scared about, aren't true. I wonder why that is. I wonder.

Funny Dig, I have written twice to both Kohl and Feingold. Not receiving any response form Kohl and twice receiving the same boiler plate letter from Feingold’s office. Did I expect them to roll over and do my will...no. I did wish to express my thoughts as a. Until an elected official is on the bubble for not being re-elected, they will never change their tune and will continue on the same path as always; I guess all voters can’t grasp that.

"I have sent Paul Ryan many letters to sign HR 676 (health insurance for patients before profit)And he keeps replying that his plan is better. (And he's pretty much ignoring me)"
-
Interesting info......hmmmmm. Maybe I DID vote for the right person since he's not rolling over or drinking the kool aid??

Pete- flash forward a few decades to about 1861 and take a look around. I seem to remember from my history classes that a few states did try to secede from the Union. How did that work out for them?

I agree Pete

and to all of the people who keep saying (including one lady from the townhall who droned on and on) how great the UK socialized system is, read this:"'Cruel and neglectful' care of one million NHS patients exposed"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/health...

mymaro,
if we're ranked 37th, let me ask you this....
if you, your child/spouse/whoever fell deathly ill, which of the 36 countries would you go to first?

Dogs_rule-Exactly, more regulations, bureacracy, paperwork, higher taxes, government intervention, and misleading unknown items in the bill is not the answer.

Zoom, I agree healthcare costs are rising so we need to make it more affordable. Throwing trillions of money into it and taxing the crap out of businesses and other people is only going to create other problems. Businesses will close, people will have less money in their pocket due to excessive taxation. More taxes affect the economy in the long run.

fldpan-Thats how liberals work. They will even use a dead senator to push their government takover, power tripping healthcare agenda. Amazing isn't it?

"Obama and his health care cronies have NEVER ONCE said that this bill (whichever one of the supposed five they choose to use) would actually IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF HEALTH CARE!"

The goal isn't to improve QUALITY. We already have high quality health care in the U.S., but the cost is increasing at double digit rates, the number of uninsured is growing, and more people are being denied coverage every day.

I had a stent put in an artery a few years ago. I was in the hospital for 22 hours. The total bill for that 22 hours was over $70000. The surgery, which took less than an hour from the time I left my room to the time I was put in a recovery room, was nearly $40000. Thank god Im fortunate enough to have good insurance.

Of course we need to make sure the right thing is done. But the fact is something has got to be done. According to the World Health Organization the United States health care system ranks 37th in the world.

Of course it's screwed up. No argument. But your letting Obama ram this thing through because your being told it is the best thing for you. You have no idea what is in it. We need something done but we need to slow down a little to make sure it is truly the right thing to do.

I just can not believe anyone would use a so called celebrity's name in a serious discussion on something this important. Proves the sheep theory.

Sicko points out the FACT that our health care sytem is GARBAGE!!!!!!! You can "read the bill" until youre blue in the face, it doesnt change the FACT that something has to be done. The current proposal may not be the answer but our government needs to FIND the right answer very quickly.

Michael Moore and as far as that's concerned, anyone in Hollywood can make anything or any situation look good or bad depending on how they want to slant it. THAT is the problem these days. A bunch of sheep willing to follow. Not one person commenting has taken the time to read the bill or at least the summary for themselves.

SickO Is a great movie and everyone here should give michael moore a chance and watch it. They delve into France, England, Canada and even Cuba's national health services. You don't have to pay $6000 for having a baby in England. There is no billing departments in the hospitals. In fact, you can find a cashier who will give you money to take a bus or taxi home if you can not drive.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/canadi...

Read this article from The Wall Street Journal before you rush to judgment. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...

Hannah- Have you ever been to England? Did you know that not all english people have rotten teeth and bad breathe. Just like not all Americans are fat and lazy. Your always the first poster to come use stereotypes to make a point. These countries have health care for all their people. Why don't we? England's National Health Service is so much better than our current system.You should read some facts at http://www.healthcare-now.org/docs/sprep... support HR 676 if you want to see some real change. I have sent Paul Ryan many letters to sign HR 676 (health insurance for patients before profit)And he keeps replying that his plan is better. (And he's pretty much ignoring me) Private Health Insurance is like a hospital gown. Chances are your a*$ ain't covered.

Has anyone seen the documentary called "Sicko"? Eye opening is an understatement.

Yes, Canadian health care is just fine.
+
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadia...
+
http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUSINE...

The federal government needs to run our healthcare system. They also need to nationalize all banks that are 'too big to fail'. We can't afford to continue allowing the current greedy healthcare providers to get rich on our hard-earned money. The big banks have already shown how much they care for us.

I just do not understand people,they get a President that wants to change health care and only 10 percent read up and understand the bill.MACDADDY:When you become of age for medicare you too will apply as you have payed for it through out the years.I am a Amateur Radio operator and talk to Canada every day.They are real glad they have there system up there,no forms to fill out,no drugs to pay for,no dentist to pay for.And they do not have to wait.When a Canadian comes to the U.S. they have to take out a Ins.Policy cause there Ins will not pay the high cost in the U.S.In fact we have alot of American Doctors that practice there cause they do not have to worry of law suits.The Insurance Co. and Drug Co.Put billions of dollars toward keeping the partys voting against any bill that they do not profit on.I pay over $1,200 a month for a $1000 dollar deductable.It will continue to climb,plus the cost of medications...If there is alot of out cry on this,the President will give up.Then we will see the winers come out complaining of the high cost.

As Congressman Ryan said, healthcare reform is needed. Just not this 1,100 page bill mandating government takeover. Bureaucrats in health commissions deciding the type of care our doctors can give us is not the American way. We can cover the 3% of Americans that need and want health insurance and control costs while keeping the choices with the patient and doctor.

“I feel frustration that many Americans feel, that the people that we elect to go to Congress don’t represent us anymore,” one attendee said in Fontana. “I feel they represent President Obama, and they’re his representatives in Congress.”

Well, the majority of Americans did vote for Obama, and did vote for Democratic representation in 2006.

i posted the entire event on youtube (i missed one question when i changed tapes).
unedited.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_qu...

"And the ugly, he said, is that without reform, health care is expected to cost $4.4 trillion by 2018 and account for more than 20 percent of the national economy."

This is the problem anti-reformers continually gloss over. They worry about investing $1 trillion over 10 years to fix health care, yet doing nothing will cost 4 times as much, and beyond.

I heard a girl on the radio talking about Englands (i think) health care. Is this the same place where there teeth are all rotten and nasty breath? health care except for your teeth???? If not which country is it that heath care is run by gov and their teeth are terrible?

i dont understand all the elderly people who complain about this government option for health care, yet they are the same ones getting test after test and seeing the doctors because "medicare" pays it. Who pays for medicare???? Taxpayers- that's right it is socialized medicine. That's the truth. When it's convenient for you or helps you out, then you are for it. See this health care reform for what it is. Medicare for the rest of us!

I appreciate Paul running a very professional town hall meeting in Janesville. While we all can't agree on everything, I agree that the meeting was civil and well run. He listened. That what he was there to do. Kudos.