Bill is correct. The majority of the births in the 50s in that age bracket were to girls that were married. I did not ignore this fact, I just thought that girls getting married when they were 15, 16, 17 was not something to boast about but apparently that is better than being single. 1750, 1850, 1950 I guess humanity didn't achieve much progress in those 300 years. The answer might be obvious to Bill, but it is interesting that other people come up with different answers. So I guess it is not that obvious. Nobody had a fight back in Bill's day, they resolved everything with such civility. Perhaps there weren't as many guns in peoples' hands because the NRA wasn't as powerful. Maybe it is the founding fathers' fault for putting in the 2nd amendment.
Officer is also correct. I just don't think in today's divided country that we could ever pass a constitutional amendment. The closes we could get might be on gay marriage...maybe

billnewbie- I agree. What ever happened to chewing gum being the worst offense a student ever commited in school? We've gone from gum to drugs to knives and guns! We have the media to thank for that and we can also thank ourselves for allowing the media to creep into our lives and become our conscience! Again, wisdom and knowledge has been replaced by ignorance!

Don_Diego’s statistical evidence that he provided in those links below have some interesting aspects. The statistics referred to are birth rates for 15 – 19 year olds from 1950 to 1997 in the CDC link and the Kansas statistics closely mirror the CDC ones. They show a decline from 1950 to 1997 of a high of about 95 per thousand in the fifties to about 55 in 1997. But if Don had scrolled down the pages instead of settling for the statistics that fit his purpose he would have seen that in 1950, 85% of those births were to married women in that age bracket as opposed to only about 24% in 1997. Now I realize that some of those marriages were of the shotgun type back in the ‘50’s but it is also true that women married younger then and that 15 16 and 17 year olds getting married were not uncommon even without the shotgun unlike in1997. And then there is the abortion factor which also occurs only with pregnant women but do not show up on birth statistics and were illegal in the ‘50’s and ‘60’s and as such were quite rare. So much for Don_Diego’s proof.
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Now for my proof. If education today is as good as it ever was, then why did the state and national legislatures institute achievement testing over the objections of the educational establishment? Was it just the result of political pressure applied by “know-it-all” parents or was it the result of actual educational deficiencies? The answer is obvious. If the social engineering in public schools is so effective then why do we now need metal detectors and armed police officers at so many of our schools? Again the answer is obvious.

"1. The supreme court cannot be overruled by the legislature." Yes they can with an amendment to the constitution. An amendment to the United States Constitution must be ratified by 3/4 of the state legislatures, or of constitutional conventions specially elected in each of the states, before it can come into effect.

DonDiego-The watered down garbage you grew up on apparently.

Truth is something you can prove. 2+2=4 I can prove that. What you are talking about is not a truth but a belief.

"What you're saying about our history is all the more reason for people to know our history as opposed to the watered down garbage our schools are teaching!" What watered down garbage are you referring to?

Don Diego- It's because people aren't perfect. Our culture today wishes to turn our generations into drones! It's become unacceptable to make mistakes anymore! That's 100% wrong! Failure is not a person, it's an EVENT! Too many people's hopes and dreams are depressed in society because people have been fed the same old lie over and over that's it's the end of the world to fail! What you're saying about our history is all the more reason for people to know our history as opposed to the watered down garbage our schools are teaching! Many events from our country's past history were horrible and less than desirable! No denying that. So if we erase that history, how do we learn from it? Wisdom is about learning from past experiences and the failures that others have lived through. We have a plethera of knowledge and people who seem to know all the answers out there, but we have an abundance of lost souls who can count to a million, but have no clue how to raise their children or help someone else in need! We've lost the sense of community which comes from WISDOM. Slice it up anyway you like Don Diego (I know where you'd like this to go, but, I'm not biting)but it's the truth.

Sorry about the misnumbering, I went to private schools.

1. The supreme court cannot be overruled by the legislature. The Supreme Court decides whether or not the laws made by the legislature are constitutional. Many of these educational cases have been made by the Supreme Court. Many policies of the schools are made with the intent of avoiding a lawsuit, which is usually based on a previous decision.
2. Are kids better educated now than 50 years ago? You say no, I say prove it! You want to make assertions, fine as long as you can prove it rather than base it on what you think or your experiences.
3. "With all the social engineering added to the curriculum, had society benefitted significantly? Our graduates seem to have even more problems with drugs, STD's and unplanned pregnancies." Again, you are making assertions based on your belief, not in fact. Even you used the word "seem". Many things "seem" that way because we have kept statistical records recently. For example, here are the statistics from the state of Kansas for girls between the ages of 15-19 from 1950-1995. http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/teenpreg/figur... What do you see? Not much has changed? Granted, this was Kansas, but even in a conservative, bible-beating, blue state young girls get pregnant. Here are the CDC numbers, what do you see? http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr47...

3. "Do kids behave themselves better in class? It would be ridiculous to suggest that they do." On what do you base your assertion? Your experiences? Are your experiences the same as EVERYONE else or just the people with whom you associate?

4. "Have the results proven the wisdom of those changes? No they have not, in fact, quite the contrary. Are kids better educated now than 50 years ago? Of course not." Why do you believe this? Again, is this from fact or your own personal experiences? Do all people who graduated from your school in the same year as you have the same belief? I doubt it. Our memories are in large part shaped by our feelings and experiences. Why can two people witness the same event and have different recollections of the "facts"?

It's quite true, Don_Diego, people haven't changed. They still have a propensity for evil and they still learn the in the same ways as they did 50, 100 even 1000 years ago. Yet the public schools have radically changed their teaching methods. Have the results proven the wisdom of those changes? No they have not, in fact, quite the contrary. Are kids better educated now than 50 years ago? Of course not. Do kids behave themselves better in class? It would be ridiculous to suggest that they do. With all the social engineering added to the curriculum, had society benefitted significantly? Our graduates seem to have even more problems with drugs, STD's and unplanned pregnancies. They enter 4 year colleges without a hope of graduating within 4 years as most need remedial classes to make them competent college students. In short, if our modern methods are better than those of yesteryear, why are the results worse and why should we settle for this?
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And yes, courts can be overruled by legislatures, not that all court decisions affecting schools are wrong, nor are they totally responsible for the state of public education and its desire to spend money profusely.

If wisdom could be taught in a class, then why does every generation, including your's, commit the same errors? People tend to remember the past in a better light than actually occurred. How many times have I heard someone tell how honest people were back in the day or how there wasn't as much crime. This is FALSE! There were many scandals regarding corrupt politicians, ever heard of the Teapot Domes scandal? Many stories were untold because there wasn't the ability to report it and keep track of statistics. Like the Civil War was all that great of a time in history. Women were treated as property. Incest was never reported. People were hanged for being the wrong color in the wrong place. Women have only had the right to vote for less than 100 years. Don't tell me how great people were in your day or how much better society was, because history tells us otherwise.

billnewbie-
Very well said. I couldn't agree more. We've gotten away from the principles that made the educational system great. It's too bad there aren't classes that teach wisdom these days! We don't have alot of that left in our society. Wisdom has been replaced with ignorance nowadays.

Bill-what you don't understand is many of those social programs are COURT ordered. We cannot just demand changes from the legislative branch. They are there as a result of lawsuits. Many social programs that are not court ordered are there as a result of need. Would you rather a teenage mother not get free child care, forcing her to stay at home, resulting in her not getting an education and probably ending up on the social welfare roles where you can complain about her again.

The funding for this referendum could've come out of Obama's immense "earnings" from Fannie Mae! Infact, why doesn't he just kick those multi millions he gained for himself right back into the economy?? That too would be called "stimulus". Actually, the more I think about it, I don't want that blood money in our community.

Interesting how those "know-it-all nagging parents making a teacher's life difficult" that Don_Diego referred to on an other comment board are now convenient foils for the failure of the educational system that just can't simply teach the mastery of the 3 r's effectively. The truth is that the public school educational system has changed from one that had as it purpose the education of students to one that has as its purpose the advancement of the public educational system and the training of students in how they should live. Hence all the nonsensical social requirements both state and federal. Accepting such encumbrances as if there is nothing that can be done about them is part of the problem. We can insist on quality education without all the unfunded mandates and social engineering imposed by those who think that public schools are primarily a place to affect social attitudes rather than a place to educate.
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No we can’t set back the clock, but we can and should revive the original purpose of public schools as well as the proven educational methods that some ridicule. Effective education will never be outdated and cannot be achieved by unlimited spending.

etown--It seems like the vote for the building of Miller Park, doesn't it. Tried four times. On the fifth vote, in the middle of the night, Republican Gerald Petak changes his vote from no to yes, and Miller Park funding is approved. Voters are so angry that they have a recall, and Petak has his legislative seat stripped from him. Then, Tommy Thompson rewards this scoundrel who caved into tommy;s demand to steal from the taxpayers by awarding him a cushy job in the administration! I wonder what bribes the Clinton folks will offer to override taxpayers voices.

the bigger question here is why are they revoting after only 3 months. are they going to have a vote on this every 3 months until people get sick of it and dont show up to vote? i thought one of the things they teach in school is NO means NO.

Sorry--going too fast, and don't want to anger the grammer police. Meant "tripartite" and "can be"

Bill- An "old school" education will not work in America in today's society. While the classical education model worked in years gone by, it no longer functions. You can bemoan this fact, but it is the truth. The courts set the education agenda. From forced busing and integration to special education and 504 plans. These did not exist 20-30 years ago. Many people like you look at test scores in other countries where a more classical model is followed, but these are deceiving. In most of those countries, the lower acheiving students are siphoned off before reaching high school. If you were to compare the top 25% of American students against those other countries you would find that they are on equal footing. "It requires a qualified and dedicated teacher, a proven teaching method and motivated students." Interesting you failed to include parents in your little shangrala scenario.

Rocky...who are you, really? George Bush Jr? Al Gore? You sure do like to take credit for things with which you have had nothing to do. Don and I disagreed over something, then we agreed on something. It certainly had nothing to do with you. Massage your ego at someone else's expense. Now...after re-reading your remarks...sorry, they still read like a tripatite attack. "Yellow dog cur" was a phrase taken from an old account of a newspaper article well over a hundred years ago. My point was that our debate has become more civil over the years, even though it still often has an edge. I'll try to simplify things for you in the future. I know reading and understanding can awful tasks for some to master.

My argument has nothing to do with the proposition that what was good enough for me is good enough for them, it's about what works. A classical education works. It doesn't require computer labs, auto shops, air conditioning, new bricks and mortar or atriums and a myriad of administrators. It requires a qualified and dedicated teacher, a proven teaching method and motivated students. Once such an educational foundation is laid, any specialized additional education can be embarked upon with satisfactory results. But our "modern" approach seems to hinge not just on money spent but on esoteric edifices meant to impress not just the tax paying public but neighboring, and apparently competing districts as well as the educational community at large. That’s a game of keeping up with the Joneses on a community, and even statewide scale. Then, with these gleaming new facilities filled with the very latest modern equipment, the focus and pressure is to funnel as many students into classes using these modern methods and equipment as possible whether the children have adequately mastered the basic understanding of these modern wonders or not. For those of us familiar with horses and buggies, we know that to put the educational marvels ahead of the basics is like putting the cart before the horse with similar results as often can be witnessed when some high school graduates attempts to make change for a dollar without a calculator. With all the pressure over the last couple of decades to spend more and more “for the sake of the children” we seem to be realizing very little value as the price of a public school education has risen very high with ever diminishing results.
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Any reasonable comparison between a classical education and today’s methods finds that the old methods were much more effective and that if we are to make educational progress, we need to backtrack quickly to the days when the quality of an education depended on the competence of the teacher and the motivation of the student and not how new the building is. After all, what is the purpose of public education, architecture and equipment or graduates that can add and subtract? High wages for ever increasing numbers of district employees or students who can read what’s printed on their graduation certificates?

First off, boilers have to be inspected in can operate until it fails inspection, which then it can be repaired and the piping too. Stop the boo-hoo on aging heating. Second geothermal is a luxury that is costly. Everybody wants to go "green" the reality of "green" in the real period of payback and resources spent in trying to use less, is greater than current other options in a lot of cases. Lets look at all the options and then make a decision.
I expect Milton to hear the word "NO" as well when it comes to their school spending so don't feel like it's just Clinton.

I think America tried that philosophy already. Companies had children working 60-80 hours in factories sticking their hands in dangerous machines. If they got maimed, oh well, no health care. Easy to replace. Then there was the meat packing industry, but I am sure you have read Upton Sinclair so you don't need me to tell you what that was like. We had monopolies driving out small business. We had a plutocracy. If the average person lived to their early 40s they were doing well. YEAH, SOUNDS GREAT TO ME!!! LET'S DO IT AGAIN!!!

First off I am not a republican. I think both parties are basically the same, crooks. The republican party is not conservative enough for my liking. I will stand for deregulation anytime over regulation. Less government = MORE FREEDOM!

Markr - sorry, I would have responded sooner, but I do have to work. First - at least my comments seemed to bring you and Don closer together....for what that is worth. I went after your remarks because they were strictly personal - not adding to the debate. You then claimed that I did the same to Bill. Hardly the case. They are called rhetorical questions...used to make a point. Here the point was that the assertion "it was good enough for me, it should be good enough for them" isn't a very useful argument. Obviously this will not probably appease you, but I'll let the other gentle readers decide.

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Back on topic.... Debating who is to "blame" for the current crisis is irrelevant . Debating the root causes is essential in preventing repetition. I agree that healthy debate is essential to the growth of our democracy, but I think my definition of healthy does not include phrases like "yellow dog cur..." Civil debate is possible - where ideas are discussed, and not the character of the people involved in the debate.

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The decision made by Clinton voters had very little to do with the whole democrat/republican debate. It was an economic knee-jerk reaction - and one that was entirely predictable. Milton Schools have, wisely, put off their referendum for the time being. Clinton should have probably done the same. Nonetheless, the needs in the Clinton district (and Milton and others in the area, I'm sure) are real and pressing. School aren't like other businesses...they don't shut down in hard economic times, and their needs often increase during these times. Schools don't get to expand like businesses, nor should they be expected to contract on a business cycle. It is an apples/screwdrivers comparison.

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IMHO, one of the ignored root causes of our current economic condition is the fact that we have been losing ground to other countries in workforce development. That begins, ladies and gentlemen, in our schools. When we nickel and dime these facilities we are only cutting our own throats. When we gripe about funding education and belittle teachers, we are slamming the door on our own economic future. It is a globally competitive market, and the schools are where things get started, or not. Don't believe me? Look to the middle east. How did they so successfully grow the fundamentalist Islamic movement? Schools. They invest time and money in teaching the kids. If you can't invest the money right now, then how about volunteering your time? Out of a job? Volunteer at school. Don't want to teach kids? Then fix some things. Paint a classroom. Be a mentor. You'll be saving the district some money, and perhaps learn a thing or two along the way.

Markr is 100% correct on this. The debate is larger than the Clinton School District. The question is about the funding of education and what is valuable and what is not. If we were to take lbarmilt's view, we could say the issue of abortion has been decided so let it go, but I doubt that any anti-choice advocates would agree. Societal attitudes and beliefs are constantly in flux, so issues must keep coming up.

Political disagreements and differing philosophies have been as much a part of American life as apple pie. In fact we are, in voicing our differences, MUCH more civil than Americans were 100 or 200 years ago. Look at newspapers throughout our history. Back in Andrew Jackson's day, it was common for people to buy papers based upon which paper was calling which politician a "yellow dog cur, famous for his lying and philandering." Divisions in political expression are not only nothing new, they are actually very healthy. Debate, even when raucus and unfriendly, certainly beats the "Gee, let's just all be friends and pretend that that will make everything better" approach. Differences, grievances, disputes...all must be aired in an open and free society. If you are offended that people argue and cling to their beliefs, that's too bad, but there is nothing wrong with giving offense if one feels that another point of view is wrong, stupid, or lacking in some other way. Without debate, we'd be Cuba. Political correctness, never hurting anyone's feelings, and such idiotic notions have no real place in political debate. If you are doing or supporting something that I think is hurting our country, I'm going to tell you so, and in no uncertain terms. I would expect no less from others when they think I'm wrong. Quit trying to stifle heated debate. It's what has made Americans consider many differing approaches to problems, and it is what has made America great.

Thank you to some of the posts that go very far to show why our country is experiencing the problems we are. The partisan politics has ruined the ability for our country to get anything done, much les done corrrectly. Democorats blame the Republicans and back and forth we go. In regard to the Clinton schools and spending. It is not a partisian issue. The people that give the money for government (taxes) to spend said no! this is not partisian, it is the basics on how our government is supposed to work. The people vote and we move on. Why do we have the politicians continue to have additional votes. We, the people have spoken and re-spoken and some local cases spoken again. Stay within the budget, and spend no more.

Yeah officer, right. It was all the fault of Democrats FORCING the mortgage companies to make loans. It had nothing to do with Bush administration policies allowing for the plundering of the economy. It had nothing to do with companies like Anderson, Enron, and countless others stealing everything that wasn't nailed down (and much that was)! The bushkins didn't step in until SO much damage had been done that there was no recovering. It had nothing to do with Bush spending EXCESSIVELY, to put it mildly, on what can only be called, at best, a very questionable war based on lies and deceit. Republicans...take the blame for what you and your leaders have done over the past 8 years. Quit dishonestly putting the blame on others so you don't have to admit your own complicity. As for your arguments about deregulation and privatization...When the cable companies were deregulated, we were promised that competition would arise, lowering prices. Exactly the opposite happened. When the phone company was deregulated, it took 15 years for calls between companies to go through smoothly, and then only when court orders restored at least some degree of regulation, requiring the sharing of lines and equipment. When welfare was privatized, Maximus and other companies immediately began stealing the money. Maximus in Milwaukee was found guilty of using over 100,000.00 of money it had been given to provide for programs for the poor on an office Christmas party for its employees, and of diverting much of the rest of the money with which it had been entrusted to things on which it was prohibited from being used! You can go all the way back to the 19th Century and see what an unregulated, lassiez faire approach has done to our economy. You are supporting a philosophy which has consistently failed every time it has been attempted. We Democrats have to live with the Clinton legacy. Have the guts to accept the blame for YOUR party's errant thinking. You hate liberals so much, but you can't even see that MODERATES have joined the anti-looting side. They overwhelmingly supported Obama, not McCain. Why? Because they did not view McCain as a moderate, but as a puppet for the looters. But you just go ahead with your eyes closed, listening to Rush Limbaugh and Billy O'Rielly, and all the other beacons of "truth." Whatever you have to tell yourself.

Regulation is what got us into this mess in the first place. Our fine government telling the banking industry do give out home mortgages to people who had no business getting the loans. I know you liberals don't want to hear the truth but not everyone can or should own a home.
Privatize education and let the good schools survive and the bad schools close. Pay as you play, not for the rest of your life. No more taxing the elderly out of their homes. No more free education for illegal aliens.

No, I voted against the referendum. We are all taxed out. There is no more. No more for anything, it has all been taken. Wait till you see who is going to be forced to pay for bailouts, TARP, gifts and loans to bankrupt corporations. We really don't have any more. All gone.

Yes Don_Diego, we spent a Trillion on the Iraq war, but we had to get those weapons of mass destruction.....What? You say there weren't any WMDs? Well, then we had to sever the terrorism link and the Al Queda link. No? Wasn't any of that either? You mean our government lied to us? Say it aint so!!!

Let's assume for a minute that the public education system isn't going anywhere for the time being. What would be the idea system? Classes of 30 or classes of 10? Modern classrooms filled with computer and every child being given a laptop? Overworked and underpaid teachers having more time to spend one-on-one with each student? We have spent a trillion dollars on the war in Iraq. What would happen if we spent a trillion dollars on education? We could do it if we put a higher emphasis on education instead of building better bombs. It's the old guns or butter argument.

Privatize education? Because deregulation has worked so well in the real world? What a great idea!!!

Right now rates are low, people need jobs and the problems with the buildings aren't going away.

Perhaps the voters would have been more sympathetic if they had come back with a scaled back plan.

It is time to privatize the American education system. It will never happen due to the powerful teachers unions however. Obama just paid off the teachers unions with money in the latest "stimulus package". According to an Associated Press report, $39 billion is going towards K-12 and higher education, $8 billion is to be used in upgrading existing schools, $4 billion will be used for Head Start and Early Head Start programs, and $25 billion will be used to bolster No Child Left Behind.

Don_Diego - I was, of course, being sarcastic.
FYI - Newer and bigger has never equated to being better.

Yes- There is no such thing as a "free" anything. It is a term coined here in the US and widely accepted as a commonly used phrase.

If that is true then shouldn't the people have voted it in last time? Schools are constantly begging for money in good times and in bad. One other question: What kind of tax hike are we speaking of? A resident of Janesville will pay an extra $120/year on a $100,000 home for the $90 million improvements being made. Is an extra $10 a month all that much? Is sacrificing 1 meal out a month worth better schools? Even in bad time I would think the answer is YES!

Don_Diego - There is no such thing as a "free" public education.

How to pass a referendum on new school spending:
Eliminate "wants" and focus only on true "needs". I doubt anyone wants an inferior education for their children. But you must define, in your community, where the line between education ends and the line for "extra stuff" begins. Most of us can do without the "atriums" and other fluff. Build a simple building with simple classrooms, drop all the "style" and spend the savings on true educational tools like computer labs, chem labs and quality textbooks along with teachers to teach.

If there is a true space problem or facility problem, this can be demonstrated to the public relatively easily. But this wasteful, decorative spending that benefits no one has to go. Next to go are the huge expenses that benefit only a select few, among them might be pools, olympic quality tracks, and auditoriums that mimic Broadway theatres.

I truly believe that a school referendum where a building project is genuinely needed and approached practically with the entire community's interest in mind can still pass in this era of economic uncertainty.

This idea that every district needs all the amenities to compete with bigger districts in "open enrollment" and things like that just doesn't fly -- smaller districts have their own unique advantages, they just have to sell them. Maybe its smaller class sizes, or more emphasis on particular extracurriculars that are hard to find elsewhere. But its the entire community: those with kids and those without, that must be satisfied that the project is in their best interest.

Good luck to all involved on the next go round.

A free public education and additional spending on school improvements during very hard economic times are NOT one in the same.

"...but the facts seperating a long-standing social program and a request for school improvements..." A free, public education is probably the longest standing social program there is.

Well I appreciate your point and agree that we waste a tremendous amount of money that I would like to take back, or not give in the first place. The problem is that people are taking their feelings about the federal or state governments out on their local governments, hurting themselves in the process. The reason I made the mark about christians is that they are famous for telling others how to live their lives while being the first to commit the same errors. I believe this was talked about in the bible as taking the log out of your own eye before trying to remove the speck from someone else's. I do not judge someone by his/her belief system, but by rather if their actions match their rhetoric. I believe Johnny Cash summed it up the best in his song "No Earthly Good". You should check it out.

I certainly must concede your point about doctors pay often coming from taxpayers, but the facts seperating a long-standing social program and a request for school improvements, while a good thing for improving the learning environment, are quite different sorts of animals. If we could eliminate some of the tax spending on medical needs, it would be a great thing, but it is seemingly impossible in our society. School improvement referendums, on the other hand, are not as difficult to eliminate. We just vote no. People are not already receiving the money, so it is not a matter of taking it away from anyone, as revisions of medical programs would have to do. There will surely be a time for spending on these things, but now is not the time. Don't you watch the news? Don't you understand that many Americans are having real trouble putting dinner on the table every night? And your assessment of Christianity (capitalized out of respect) is pathetic. Respect does not seem to be your long suit. If you truly believe that Christians are bad people by virtue of their beliefs, and that non-Christians are automatically the salt of the earth, then I am left with no option but to feel very, very sorry for you. That is NOT a good standard for character judgement.

don--I know. It's really terrible the way rocky chastised me, isn't it. At least we are in agreement on one thing!

I don't get it. Someone chastises someone for doing something then turns around and does the same thing. Must be a christian.

We don't pay doctors with taxes? Ever heard of Medicare and Medicaid?

Truth...Exactly! AND we don't ask taxpayers to pay our doctor and accountant.

Didn't mean to hit rocky twice. I posted once, but it didn't appear after five minutes, so I revised comment and posted again. Then both appeared. Wasn't trying to pile on.

Don Diego- I do not automatically "trust" any doctor and anyone who would is a fool...A doctor is not responsible for your health, you are, and any person knows their own body better than anyone else does..I go to a doctor once in a great while, but I do not automatically "trust" whatever they say.

rocky--you follow your personal attack on me with one on Bill and then with another on bloggers in general. Can you say HYPOCRITE? Mine was not an attack...it was a reminder that you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. I think I see why you didn't understand. You went to a really old school, right?

Rocky--I see you are one of those people who can't understand what you read. Must've gone to school in a real old building. You follow your personal attack on me with one on Bill, and then another on all the other bloggers in general. Can you say HYPOCRITE? Wait...you'd rather live it than say it.

yeah I know, beacuse is one word not two.

Do people usually tell their doctors what they need or trust their doctors? Do people tell their accountant how to do their taxes? Usually they don't be cause they entrust the professionals, who have many years of training, to make the ultimate decisions yet for some reason when teacher, principals, and other trained professionals tell the public what they need in order to be better, societ usually says "What do you know?" Why is that?

Markr - perhaps you'd like to add something to the debate other than personal attacks? Moderator?

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Billnewbie - you clearly fail to grasp the mission of the 21st century school. Tell me - do you still use a horse and buggy to get around? Do you go to the river with a washboard and homemade lye to clean your clothes? What was "good enough" 100 years ago is not good enough today. Schools need to prepare students for the century in which they live - and that can be expensive.

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I wonder how many complaining about the cost are the same ones who say the schools aren't doing a good job these days?

Don Diego--Any good points you may be making are lost in your snottiness and in the assumption that anyone who dares disagree with you must be an imbecile, and therefore deserving of smart-alec attacks. You are only half right. You leave an awful lot out of the argument, but I guess that allows you to retain your feeling of superiority. If you had to account for all of the facts on both sides of the argument, you couldn't look down your nose at others the way you want to do.

I prefer to teach children how to read, how to write, how to add and subtract, the history of their country and the world, geography etc.
They can learn how to fix cars, cook and install HVAC at the technicals schools after they've been taught, and mastered the basics (a prerequisite of any specialized education) which every public school has the resources for in their textbooks and libraries, as old and decrepit as those buildings may appear to be.

Don- Kind of funny you brought this up. Clinton spent millions on a new high school and the metals and ag and auto shops are nothing compared to the ones in the old high school. They did build a nice gym for the classrooms to be built around though.

Even old buildings that are still viable need periodic updating. There is no point to teaching cursive if students never use it in their careers and obviously hand-written materials are no longer something we have to produce daily. Even a farmer will have a computer. If Clinton does not want to educate its students for the 21st century, some other community will.

Highest Taxed States (Wall Street Journal): Vermont has the highest rate of property taxes in terms collections as a percentage of income with a rate of 5.12%. The other top rates are in New Hampshire, which has a rate at 5.05%; New Jersey at 4.88%; Maine at 4.71% and Wyoming at 4.55% .
According to US News and World Report, all of these states rank in the top 8 of public schools with the exception of Wyoming.
Might there be a connection? HHHHHMMMMMMMM

billnewbie- so you would vote for an tax increase for a new school that included a shop area where students could learn to fix cars, cook, and HVAC training? So an up-to-date building where students can learn these skills would be better than a school from the 1850s? So there is something else to learn besides reading', writin', and 'rithmatic? Where do people learn these skills? Take Beloit Memorial High School which as an excellent program for CAD (sorry bill that involves a computer), car repair (sorry that involves computers too), machine shop (my bad, that involves computers), and many other skills. These modern programs would not exist in a school building from the 1950s and without the taxpayers with the forsight to see beyond their wallets.

The time of penmanship being important is quickly coming to an end. Change is hard. What has been a way of life for a long time is changing so fast. This fact is scary for many who like whoanellie long for simpler days. The more you try to fight it, the more difficult your life will be. I used to say I would never get a cell phone, now I have one. I used to say I'd never use email, now I can't remember the last time I hand wrote a letter. Who needs an ipod? No one NEEDS an ipod, but they sure are great to have.

The reality is that changes are coming... They must come. You must share in bringing them.
~John Hersey~
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
~Charles Darwin~
Change is the watchword of progression. When we tire of well-worn ways, we seek for new. This restless craving in the souls of men spurs them to climb, and to seek the mountain view.
~Ella Wheeler Wilcox~
Loyalty to a petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul.
~Mark Twain~

... the Gazette forgot to write about the scores of students who will be transferring out of Clinton because of substandard facilities. Open enrollment will gut the district. What the Clinton voters did is cut off their nose to spite their face. Good luck!

In fact billnewbie they are actually deciding weather they should teach cursive to kids anymore because they do most of their work on the computer! Why teach them cursive when they can let a machine do the writing for them! What happened to a mans signature on something? Now instead of "put your John Hancock on this" it will be put this in your printer and let the computer copy your name!! Ridiculous!!!

At least with a piece of chalk and a sidewalk to write on, the children would learn how to do their own work and understand the principles involved before they turn to the machines. But hey, why should we know how to read well and do arithmetic when the machines can do that for us? Why learn how to walk when we have cars? why learn how to cook when there are frozen dinners? Why learn what makes fire when we have furnaces? I could go on and on.

Yeah, who needs computer labs and modern science labs with the most up-to-date computer programs? All students really need is a piece of chalk and a sidewalk to do homework. Just think of it, we could save millions. Back in my day my dad Fred and my uncle Barney had to stop their cars with their own bare feet!

billnewbie;I agree with you! my house was built in 1921, can I have a new one to live in? I think it is too old to contribute any good to my life! We also drive our cars till they die and keep fixing them because we can't afford a new one. Education is not in the building,it's with the teachers and parents and the kids themselves. I went to school in some very old buildings but still managed to get an education, go figure???

What is it with some who seem to think that old buildings equal poor education? I saw President Obama talking about a school building in South Carolina that was built in the 1850’s as if the age of the building alone caused educational impairment. Do old bricks and mortar somehow absorb educational substance? Do they discharge some undetectable compound that prevents learning? The obvious answer is no yet some cling to the idea that how much we value our children can be measured by how much we spend on their education. So how much is enough? To those who think that way there seems to be no limit.
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The administrator says they have “no plans to come to voters with another project in the near future”. No formal plans, but they will be back. Just as nearly every other school district in this state has shown, persistence pays off, eventually.

Schools need to start living within their means. I would love a new car, but I keep fixing the old one. As with this economy I am not going to buy new anything until things balance out.

Another question that should be considered is enrollment. With the job losses in Rock Co. is it going to remain constant justifying an expansion of the elementary. Current enrollment is 392 the same as it was 20 years ago. http://www.city-data.com/school/clinton-...

Unfortunately, whoanellie, teachers don't work 9 months out of the year. There is a lot of prep work, classes, and administrative work done during the summer months. Also, during the school year, if you can find me a teacher that works only 8 hours a day, I'll give you a gold star. You're right they should be grateful they have a job, but they also put in a lot of hard work in college to get that job. I don't understand what this country has against teachers. Without them, our kids would be running around illiterate and unprepared for life as adults. I for one am smart enough to know that my teachers played a huge part in who I am today.
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I do, however, agree with your point that nobody right now needs higher taxes, and I agree that the Clinton School Board should have changed things in the referendum to show they are willing to compromise. I don't want to pay higher taxes either, but I also don't want our kids to lose out on quality education and activities.

some people think that the there isn't a bottom to our spending barrel! I say get in there and figure out some things that aren't working and get rid of them! Get back to basics, reading, writing and math, supplemented with things they need to get into college. we do so many froo-froo things in the schools now and on top of that programs to babysit after school as well. And I for one do not need any higher taxes. people are losing their jobs and wondering how to feed their kids. Teachers with a job should be grateful, they get paid pretty well for 9 months out of the year!

Shame on the Clinton school board for putting up the same spending referendum that was just voted down in November, '08. The voters had spoken !

Sounds like another case of citizens wanting the best for their communities, but not wanting to help pay for it. Folks, you can't get something for nothing. You want good teachers, you have to pay them well. You want top level facilities, you have to help pay for them.