What are your thougths on theodicy?

Yes, Dr Talk...he refused to prove his statements. That is code for he can't, like the majority of his ridiculous claims.

DrTalk, I don't take reading assignments. Absorb the material and present it in your own words. The psychotic debating tactic you apparently learned from RAF isn't going to be any more successful than when he tried it.

I refused to prove my statement about Luke's bloodletting with citations but I thank prounion for doing so.

Again, what do you think Luke did for treatment plans? Titanium knees hadn't been invented yet.

Dr.Talk - I was hoping you could perhaps return the attempted favor - and answer some of my questions that Billnew has been refusing to answer? Especially the she bear question and also wondering why the prayer didn't work for that little girl?

gazettefan,
Here's more historical facts about the resurrection:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/e...

gazettefan:"DrTalk, what have historians said about Jesus rising from the dead? Answer: NOTHING!!!"
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First of all, you failed to backup your claim that Luke practiced bloodletting by trying to change the subject. Maybe prounion should teach you how to google. Looks like he TRIED to back up your claim for you.

Second, historians had plenty to say about Jesus rising from the dead. In fact, we've had this conversation before. Here are the facts surrounding the resurrection:
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/east...

Dr.Talk - here is a link on the history of bloodletting - it was common practice during those days. The priest and the "doctor" were sometimes one and the same - since sickness was caused though to have been caused by demons. Some of us have "evolved" to modern day thinking. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/redgold/basics/b...
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Seems clear that if Luke was an MD he would have been liekly to practice the advanced scientific methods of the day?
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What would ahve been great, of course, if if the bible was divinly inspired god would have shown some sort of hint that sickness was caused by something other than sin or demons, why doesn't he?

Yeah, RAF, like you have the knowledge to tell what I know and don't know. Ha!!!

Dr Talk, GF is so obsessed with what he thinks is real that the line between fact and fiction for him is completely gone. When he says it, he believes is to be fact that is his proof.

DrTalk, what have historians said about Jesus rising from the dead?

Answer: NOTHING!!!

No, Gazettefan. The fact the I brought up that Luke was a doctor only means I have to prove that he was a doctor. This has been confirmed by historians and archeologists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_the_Ev...
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Now, you need to provide proof of your claim that he practiced bloodletting.

Yes, DrTalk, and I explained why the "scientific community has not validated..." yet in my Bush 2 post.

And if your going by order of who brought up what first: then your claim that Luke was a doctor leaves you with the responsibility of proving he was a doctor. You can do this by explaining what his treatments were.

Gazettefan: "Kyle had to go to China to get the treatment that Bush 2 and his idiotic posse interfered with here as a result of their idiotic problem with embryonic research!!!"
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Add gazettfan to the list of people that didn't read the article. Here's what the article said:"The treatments are not available in the United States because the scientific community hasn’t validated the procedures, a prerequisite for federal government approval, said Terry Devitt, director of Research Communications at UW-Madison."

Gazettefan:"DrTalk, time and time again you have failed to provide proof for claims like a dead guy talked to Paul. Prove it."
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You're confusing me with bibledude.
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"What do you think doctors did back in the first century? MRIs?!!!"
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Once again you are trying to shift the burden of proof. You need to provide evidence for your claim that Luke practiced bloodletting.

OK, karen...., how's this for focus. Kyle had to go to China to get the treatment that Bush 2 and his idiotic posse interfered with here as a result of their idiotic problem with embryonic research!!!

The debate is relevant to the idiocy of believers who claim they have the moral highground!!!

Get it?!!!

Why don't DrTalk and gazettefan go on aol or something and hash out their differences. This is very annoying. You two need to focus on the article instead of going off on some tangent!!

DrTalk, time and time again you have failed to provide proof for claims like a dead guy talked to Paul. Prove it.

What do you think doctors did back in the first century? MRIs?!!!

gazettefan "DrTalk, at least 90% of your responses to my posts are a matter of your avoidance. For instance, how did Doc Luke treat his patients aside from blood letting?"
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You're engaging in what's called shifting the burden of proof. It's not for me to tell you what medical practices Luke performed. You said that Luke performed bloodletting but you failed to provide evidence. Please provide it.
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DrTalk, at least 90% of your responses to my posts are a matter of your avoidance. For instance, how did Doc Luke treat his patients aside from blood letting?

It is rich that you believe in non-existent supernatural events while you exhibit the ruse of wanting evidence. You've given-up. Now you're down there with RAF and the rest of the laity.

gazettefan:"You're supposed to be spiritual (and superstitious) and you can't understand why someone who knew nothing about germs would wash their hands after touching a dead body?
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I already told you why. See my July 29, 7:03pm post. I just wanted your explanation.

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By the way, I'm still waiting for the evidence that Luke practiced bloodletting. I'm going to assume you don't have the evidence otherwise you would have provided it by now. You keep avoiding the issue.

DrTalk, you're supposed to be spiritual (and superstitious) and you can't understand why someone who knew nothing about germs would wash their hands after touching a dead body?

And if you knew nothing about germs and your hands were dirty you wouldn't wash them before eating?

What would Paul's treatment plan be for Kyle?

i have worked with kyle before he is a very nice young man and i am happy that this has helped him and hopeful he can ended up getting more of this is a couple years. you people are missing the point it about that this stem cell helped him and hopeful helps him more to be able to do more. i am praying this helps him. and for you other people that are just on here to fight about stupid stuff grow up. it about something that has helped him.

gazettefan:"Leviticus has nothing to do with the awareness of germs."
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Why were they considered to be unclean after touching a dead body and be considered clean after washing up?
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"Of course ol' Doc Luke practiced blood letting."
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You still failed to provide evidence.

Are you reading the truth, or what Editor Scott Angus wants you to hear ? It seems Mr. Angus has taken up censorship on other articles on the Gazette Extra.....

http://www.gazettextra.com/news/2009/jul...

DrTalk, why would I cite Leviticus? Leviticus has nothing to do with the awareness of germs.

But more importantly, the fact that Paul rejected the laws of the Hebrew bible, which includes the tribute to "god" of hand washing, goes to the anti-semitic basis of chrisitanity.

Paul transformed the Hebrew practice of all human acts being a tribute to god into the individual internal conceit that is the christian personality. Sin then pray for forgiveness, sin then pray for forgiveness ad infinitum. It's all in your head. You don't really have to live like you're religious -or good. You only have to believe you are. That's way prisons are full of christians. And that's why the jerks you have to deal with everyday are christians.

Of course ol' Doc Luke practiced blood letting. What else would he do? Tell us, what else would he do? If you were sick and he managed to appear before you, would you let him treat you or would you go to a real doctor?

gazettefan,

I thought you were a Bible scholar; that's why I didn't provide the passage. It's Leviticus 11:24-32 and it had everything to do with killing germs.
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But you still failed to provide evidence that Luke practiced bloodletting.

Kyle: Oops!! I mistakenly referred to you as "Ryan" in my original comment posted on July 25th. I apologize for that. I'm not sure how I did that, but I now understand how one of my grandmothers always got my four brothers' names mixed up. (P.S. No, I'm not a grandmother yet, but I am confused at times. LOL!) Best of luck to you, KYLE!

I cannot believe the people who are so ignorant about this article. To Kyle this is the most important happening in his life. He is nothing more than a young adult trying to live his life to the fullest. Don't tell me that most of you wouldn't do the same for your own son,daughter,cousin, or friend..you'd be lying if you said no. I myself am proud of Kyles accomplishments and I hope he continues to progress. To all of you "Nay" sayers I sincerly hope nothing of this magnitude ever happens to your family. Kyle is a wonderful,sincere young man that I and my family are proud to call our friend. His parents are to be commended for fighting for their sons life not ridiculed by people because they have nothing better to do. Go Kyle Go...........we love you!!!!

DrTalk, I'm sure ol' Doc Luke practiced some real good medicine back in the first century. What kind of treatments do you suppose he employed?

Funny you didn't mention the "part of the bible" re: the hand washing. And if you could, could you say that the hand washing was for the purpose of killing germs? Answer: No!

You also might want to comment on the lie in the bible that has Pilate washing his hands re: the death of Jesus. This lie is evidence that the true impetus of christianity is anti-semitism. Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus; christianity was invented by Paul because he was a self-hating anti-Semite.

And "delusion?" You believe that Paul had a conversation with a dead guy!!!

Gazettefan: "And, yes, Dr. Luke specialized in bleeding patients and then sending them the bill which bled them ever more."
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First of all, you failed to provide evidence. Second, those who actually read the Bible know that "the life of the flesh is in the blood." Lev. 17:11
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Gazettefan:"Also, not nice of the lord to not inform Doc Luke about germs and washing one's hands."
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Those who read the Bible also know about washing their hands. You should read the story of Ignace Semmelweis. After reading a part of the Bible where it talks about washing hands, he made all the doctors and nurses wash their hands after treating each patient. The death rate among new-born babies dropped.

Are you still under the delusion that science and religion don't mix?

Just food for thought, if people were not so sue happy and people did not abuse the remedies we already have the FDA would be quicker to approve therapies that are considered controversial. In some instances our own actions have allowed the government to step in and over regulate. IMO the FDA is too powerful and in part causes the high cost of therapies and the lag behind the rest of the world, which is why people that can afford it go to Germany for cancer treatment and China for transplants or stem cells. Overall I feel that big government is killing us all in one way or another. Kyle is lucky that he was able to get this treatment and I hope the benefits for him are ongoing. Maybe more stories like his will open the eyes of naysayers to the benefits of this kind of therapy. I am not pro abortion but I am pro choice. It is not a religious issue to me but one of not letting government regulate a woman's body and we already have enough children in this country that are not being taken care of properly, let alone the population of the world that cannot be sustained at this rate. Since abortion is legal why not make these stem cells available to qualified researchers for the greater good.

I personally know the Knopes family and I have great hope that Kyle will be able to enjoy some of the pleasures in life that most take for granted. Whether it is religion, government or other "powers that be", I hope that non-conventional medicine will eventually be accepted by the FDA and will allow more people, such as Kyle, to receive the treatments. I know that as a parent, I would, like Penny and Steve, go to the ends of the earth to do whatever I could to see my child become all that he/she can. I am sincerely hopeful (and prayerful) that Kyle has long-lasting benefits from this treatment and mysterious science.

GF not only has trouble posting facts with his troubled claims he can't read adhere to the 10 items, "before you post a comment, consider this"

Since "gazette fan" has basically hijacked this discussion, & is bound & determined NOT to discuss the topic at hand, I'm officially leaving. I suggest the moderators "pull the plug".

Yes, Luke was Paul's faithful eskimo companion. Paul and Luke invented christianity, which had nothing to do with Jesus.

And, yes, Dr. Luke specialized in bleeding patients and then sending them the bill which bled them ever more.

Also, not nice of the lord to not inform Doc Luke about germs and washing one's hands.

DrTalk, are you familiar with the term "representative sample?"

And whatever Luke was re: science, he was certainly a liar when it came to the life of Paul. His account (Acts) as to what Paul did after his nervous breakdown disagrees radically with what Paul said about himself.

oops...Luke wasn't one of the original disciples. My point was just that Luke was a physician, thereby disproving gazettefan's point that somehow scripture is anti-science.

gazettefan,
You completely missed the point. How does that article prove your assertion that all religious people are anti-science? It doesn't. Therefore you committed the fallacy of hasty generalization.
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"And, anyone affiliated with a religion who achieves a scientific advancement is working against the tenets of religion and scripture."
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I'm not sure which religion or which scripture you're referring to. Christianity certainly doesn't teach that. Luke, one of Jesus' disciples was a physician.

Yes, brwe, I'm still ticked off for being kicked out of Up With People for being unruly.

he has also been known to bash others form of relaxation...but he seems to be easing back on that;)

Tell me "gazette fan"--do you HAVE any issues besides bashing other peoples' religions?

"That claim is a ruse by religious people who falsely assume the moral highground. They know nothing about what they are talking about. Their stance only proves that they care nothing about people like Kyle.Religious people are the main impetus for attacking scientific and medical advancements. Only a religious person would murder his child for the reasons given by the fool in this story.
what the guy in the cited story did was uniquely religious. That is, he murdered his child as a result of his belief that a "benevolent" supernatural being would supersede in morality and effectiveness the morality and effectiveness of medicine and medical advancements.

Certainly democratization in the world has diluted the extreme religious mentality that would have people commit en mass the crime in the cited story. Though, that mentality still lurks dangerously everywhere in its diluted form.

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And, anyone affiliated with a religion who achieves a scientific advancement is working against the tenets of religion and scripture (see my above paragraph). Therefore, said scientific advancement was not the result of religion in the positive sense."--Direct quotes from "gazette fan". AND I'M HOSTILE?

brwe, what gives?!!! Your comment doesn't reasonably follow from what I said. Very non sequitur. And hostile!

Certain people seem determined to convince the rest of us of their ignorance. Tell me "gazette fan", is it just Christians you hate - or does your paranoia really extend to all non-atheists?

DrTalk, look up the word "anecdote."

Further, what the guy in the cited story did was uniquely religious. That is, he murdered his child as a result of his belief that a "benevolent" supernatural being would supersede in morality and effectiveness the morality and effectiveness of medicine and medical advancements.

Certainly democratization in the world has diluted the extreme religious mentality that would have people commit en mass the crime in the cited story. Though, that mentality still lurks dangerously everywhere in its diluted form.

------

And, anyone affiliated with a religion who achieves a scientific advancement is working against the tenets of religion and scripture (see my above paragraph). Therefore, said scientific advancement was not the result of religion in the positive sense.

prounion,
If we are importing technology it's because it's more cost effective for us to import it. It means Americans are effective at doing something else and can make more money doing that than creating those same technologies here.

karenjis41--I think you're misreading someone here. I haven't seen anything derogatory aimed at Kyle. His treatment was done using what are classified as "adult" stem cells & is completely non-controversial.

"Wonder why the USA isn't leading the way on stem cell research - religion."
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Back to making assumptions into facts...

Sorry, I meant Steven Hawkings

The negativity on here is very wrong. Kyle is a wonderful human being who someday may be the next Steven Hawkins! Leave religion out of it and leave the poor kid alone! Until you walk (or in Kyles case) roll in their shoes, keep your negativity to yourselves!!!!!

just becuase the scientific community validates a medicine/treatment doesnt mean uncle sam will allow it

Dr.T - we are importing technology - why?

UW-Madison--Isn't that one of the leading Christian colleges?

Prounion:"Wonder why the USA isn't leading the way on stem cell research - religion."
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Sorry, but you're wrong. Here's what the article said:
"The treatments are not available in the United States because the scientific community hasn’t validated the procedures, a prerequisite for federal government approval, said Terry Devitt, director of Research Communications at UW-Madison.

“The (treatment’s) safety and efficacy has yet to be confirmed by the biomedical community,” he said."

I think gazettefan knows that he just committed a hasty generalization fallacy. He used one piece of anecdotal evidence to support his belief that all religious people are anti-science. But of course he's wrong. If fact is was Christians who started the major branches of science.

Wonder why the USA isn't leading the way on stem cell research - religion.

I love how people can debate this issue.. about medical advances that can save a life! Until you are a parent of a child who is terminally ill, you really have no business saying this treatment is wrong! What is wrong is ignoring a possible treatment for whatever reason, and letting a child die. I know Kyle, he's a great kid that deserves to have a happy life. Remember the heart is a muscle. I know how Penny feels..my daughter is terminally ill. She has many diagnoses with her heart disease, pulmonary hypertension, cor pulmonale, Digeorge syndrome, scolosis, autoimmune neutropenia...We are using Sildenafil, the main ingredient in Viagra, my Alexis is one of the first to be on it, but she still will more than likely one day need a double lung transplant. Depends on if her vessels in her lungs get bigger..they are too fragile now..I try to have hope in medicine, and I wish we were at the point I could provide her with stem cells for new lungs.

BTW~I do NOT believe in abortion. I do believe in trying to save a child's life and make their quality of life as improved as possible.

There is also the possibility of cloning new tissues and organs. This does not require the use of stem cells.

The article above, which these posts are theoretically related to, makes no mention of any religion - pro or con. So far, my only references to religion have been in answer to your wild -eyed irrationality. So why don't you explain to all of us the common thread linking the article, my posts, & the last link you posted?

Religious people are the main impetus for attacking scientific and medical advancements. Only a religious person would murder his child for the reasons given by the fool in this story.

http://gazettextra.com/weblogs/latest-ne...

There's nothing more humorous than to be told you know nothing--by someone whose knowledge of the subject virtually defines "nothing"! We can argue about the point at which life begins, but to state unequivocally, "There is no destruction of human life in any stem cell research...(or) treatment.", is beyond asinine. No one disputes the destruction (death) of the donor embryos. A common fallacy is that only "religious" people have a problem with this & other "life & death" issues. Years ago, I used to demonstrate outside an abortuary alongside an ardent atheist! In fact, if you take the time to search the internet, you can find the Atheist & Agnostic Pro-Life League. janesvillemom--I'm hoping your research included more than that one source. Please check out the PDF at http://www.nrlc.org/Factsheets/FS08_Stem... for the other side of the discussion.

Good Story! Kyle, I'm glad that the Gladiator organization was of some financial help and could make this possible for you and your family.

Hopefully we can work togather in future to make another trip possible.

Good luck Kyle, maybe someday stem cell treatment will become more mainstream, hopefully even able to help people like my husband suffering with the effects of MS the possible applications seem endless. Lets catch up to the rest of the world.

There is no destruction of human life in any stem cell research and any stem cell treatment. That claim is a ruse by religious people who falsely assume the moral highground. They know nothing about what they are talking about. Their stance only proves that they care nothing about people like Kyle.

Good luck, Kyle.

Fantastic story ... thanks to both Ryan and the Gazette. Keep the faith, Ryan; you're doing great. One more note: Your handwriting is more legible than mine has ever been!

Congratulations Kyle! I am so happy for you..Have HOPE...

http://www.newsweek.com/id/208450

It looks like the money has arrived! Hope they are successful!

Okay, I did some homework. Scientists prefer embryonic stem cells because they can proliferate in the lab for a year or more without differentiating (adult and umbilical stem cells cannot). Therefore, they have a supply of embryonic stem cells readily available for research. There are very few stem cells in adults and umbilical cords so it is difficult to get enough for research or treatments. Without research, they cannot get FDA approval for treatment. Also adult and embryonic stem cells are different in what they can do. Adult stem cells usually can only create cells of the area they are derived from (cells from teeth can only make teeth for instance) while embryonic stem cells can create any organ or body part. This makes embryonic stem cell research more attractive to scientists because if they can figure it out, the possibilities are endless. Adult stem cells do have the advantage of being less likely to be rejected as they can be taken from the person who needs them. Interesting stuff! I just wish the US would speed it up, but that takes money.
Source:
http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/bas...

quiet onelife2live.

It is a good story. And I still question the stem cell issue.

I think the Gazette is for stem cell? Or is there a bad side to it? I mean, respectfully, has there been bad overseas stem cell cases...just asking. Someone might read this and hop on a plane for the same thing. Will they have the same result? again, just asking.

The biggest obstacle to this particular treatment NEVER has been the government! The problem is that great potential has been shown for treatments with both adult & umbilical-cord stem cells - neither of which require destroying life - but the vast majority of "researchers" AREN'T INTERESTED! They'd rather focus their resources on fetal stem cells, which have shown no such potential & can only come from (previously) living human beings!

i agree hank

with all the bad things happening now days,this story highlighted my day,im so happy for this young man, and he looks pretty happy too.i hope his condition continues to improve.good luck to you kyle and i hope it only gets better for you.