hmmm...My dad was a middle school teacher thru the 70's, 80's and early 90's. He was a "disciplinarian" and was effective for the most part as a "lunch duty" supervisor (for kids who got into minor situations the previous day(s)). He decided to retire after a punk rich kid was told that he was not allowed to talk during lunch duty. After repeated cautions, warnings and then subsequential further discipline was required, the student was asked to remove himself from the lunch duty room and clean up the lunch room by pushing in chairs, picking up papers, etc. The kid refused that form of discipline also and by the time the "incident" was over, the kid ran to the principal stating unfair treatment. The principal called the kids parents to APOLOGIZE!!! My dad decided then and there that the problem with lack of respect lies in the lack of administrative support to execute disciplinary actions. No one ever died because he/she cleaned up after someone else. It might make better citizens of them, too. Isn't that the goal?

I would have to disagree. I do understand what you are saying but, i can get the "worst" kids in middle school to listen. To many custodians are rude and yell at the kids and that is not going to do any good.

i think what spikesmom is trying to say is some people have no tact or are rude. When you are working with kids you have to give them respect too. If you treat them like a human they will respond totally different. This is how i deal with middle school students and have yet to have any problems. If you want a kid to pick up a mess that isn't their's you have to ask if they can help you out...and help them clean it too..not keep them outside until it is done..WRONG!!

This whole so and so must not be important enough or have a big enough name in the community is sickening! Obviously those who feel this way, think that way. You only give others the power to belittle you. If you would have more strength and confidence in YOUR NAME, it wouldn't matter who is who...... I would NEVER feel inferior to anyone for any reason. Ever! And I suggest you all do the same. I am not saying I think I am all that, or my family is all that so to speak, but in our hearts we are. Love yourself, and forget about those you think are bigger than you!

WOOHOOO Hannah! Exactly!

i have never made a student help that did not want too..i bribe (sounds bad but works) and i get tons of kids when i ask for help. Custodians have more pull than most people would think but, some take it to an extreme..not all. SPIKESMOM..they will probably do nothing..you will be best off trying not to get all worked up about it. Your complaint is legit but there are a few that have done 10 times worse and somehow still have a job? If they cut custodians those are the ones that should go..not seniority. It should get interesting.

blue- I would if I thought it would matter, but I'm not so sure it would. I was trying to get it taken care of in-house and I thought I had gotten through to the school. What happened Tuesday with my son made it clear that the school doesn't care and didn't talk to this janitor, like I was told was going to happen. I might still make that call.

What a mess! Recent discussions re: Janesville schools make me wonder how anything gets accomplished.

spikesmom- i know directly who you are talking about and am wondering if you called downtown to complain?

I think some of you parents need to come to some of the schools and see the disasters at the end of the day..every day..custodians are there to MAINTAIN the schools, they are being expected to clean up some stuff that is just ridiculous. People should come and look at a cafeteria at the end of lunch. These kids are throwing food all over the place, throwing trays in the garbage (which the custodians are expected to pull out) and it gets old fast!! I think some of the parents should come and do the custodians job for a week and see what it is. OH yeah, and how about kids throwing clothes in the toilet and pooping on them????!!! The custodians are expected to clean that too!! DISGUSTING!!!

I thought someone on here said that janitors see everything. That's right, they do. They know who sits where and who can't be bothered to pick up after themselves. Who knows, maybe thee kids belong to somebody important. My kid doesn't belong to someone important enough apparently, so he's the one stuck cleaning up after all the important kids. Sounds REALLY fair to me. People are really missing my point. Janitors do not have the right on their own to keep kids from getting to class. This idiot is not letting the principal or any teacher know. He just keeps him until he does enough work. My job requires me to be in elementary and middle schools almost daily all over the southern half of WI. I see and interact with custodians at most of the schools. I also see them interact with the students. NOWHERE have I seen a janitor like this one. My son is out of that school forever after tomorrow and unless this janitor ends up at Craig, we won't have to deal with it anymore.

It's not my kid's fault that other parents are lazy and don't teach their own kids to pick up after themselves. If the schools, or janitors, can't get the correct kids to clean up the messes they leave behind it should definitely not be whatever kid is close by.

Oh Spikesmom, that was totally not good what you just said. You are an enabler. You are just justifying the fact that there will always be someone there to clean up someone elses' mess. No offense, honestly, but seriously, please take a deep breath step back and think about this for a minute.

I'm sorry but I don't get the last two statements. I still don't think it's the janitor's job to assign work to the students. This guy is on a major power trip at that school. My son disposes of his trash every day. It is NOT his job as a student to do the janitor's work, and yes it is the janitor's job to pick up after the kids if the kids refuse to do it.

I get your frustrations, but remember in the day when no one would rat, they all would do the time? Those days should come back. Because the ones who had to be punished for something they didn't do would get mad enough to make sure those types of things didn't happen anymore. It is parents like you that allow for an "thought to be" easy ride for kids, and then the real world sets in. Life isn't fair and never will be, and we shouldn't mislead our kids into thinking so. JMO

spikesmom: Do your son a favor and don't make too big a deal out of the incident. It won't be the last time in his life that he has to take care of somebody else's mess ... life is not always fair and sometimes in the real world it is just better to keep quiet and do as you're told. (Believe me, this theory took me years to incorporate into my own life ... so, I hear where you are coming from too.)

ALSO, how is overtime being thrown on janitors to make them look bad?? Overtime is taken because extra help is not given. Also, for them to say the income of a janitor is @58,000 is insane..unless the benefits cost $25,000??!! Also, it would not be a problem to not have overtime..subs..BUT, the teachers will have to understand that there classrooms might not be as clean as they expect them. I am sure complaints would get old fast!! Everyone has to be on the same page..work as 1. Definitely not the case now!

RUMMAGE...So it's ok to punish the kids not responsible and let all the other kids off the hook? Keeping my son from getting to his next class is UNACCEPTABLE by someone NOT a teacher or principal. All my son did was walk outside for 5 minutes and because he made that choice it was his job to clean up after all the kids that left everything behind? Are you kidding???

SPIKESMOM....although I totally get that your son may have not been the one to make the mess, I have to agree with the tactics of this janitor, and I think that he is a very brave person for standing up to the kids even though HE KNOWS that parents are going to call and complain because someones feelings were hurt. But see, these janitors see MORE than anyone in the schools. They see what kids do what, and I am sure they could tell us a few things about our own kids. If he gets the kids to clean up the courtyard, good for him. Especially if it is some random kid that didn't make a mess, maybe they will remember how much it sucked, and tell another kid that is being a slob to knock it off. I see nothing wrong with this, and I hope he doesn't get into trouble.

A janitor at the middle school my son attends would not let me son back in the building after lunch yesterday. Why? Because the courtyard was a mess. My son ate his lunch inside and went outside afterwards to hang with his friends. He did not bring one thing outside with him. The janitor said the area(entire courtyard) was a mess and it needed to get cleaned up. My son tried to tell him that it wasn't his mess. After about 5 minutes my son was allowed to re-enter the building. This same janitor has been pulling this kind of crap all year and numerous phone calls and emails to the principal have done nothing to fix it.

Ok, so having the expelled kids clean MIGHT not work....but you can't tell me that they cannot use cleaning as an insentive or dicipline somewhere? How about extra credit for the kids who need it to graduate? Something could work!

Just a reminder, as one has already said on here, there are bad/lazy everything, and I would also like people to remember that custodians are not the teachers personal assistants. They do have other maintenance to take care of besides cleaning rooms. I don't think they should be required to clean more than lightly in a room when they have bathrooms, hallways, lockers, vomit, outdoors, parking lots etc....to take care of. I support teachers 100% in everything, so I don't want to be misunderstood here, but they do claim those rooms to be THEIRS, so in my opinion the janitorial duties should be theirs as well. If they are not happy with the cleanliness of the rooms, rules should be implemented upon the students who visit those rooms. It seems to me that custodians are being looked down on here, where in actuality, I am wondering just how many of us could walk a day in their job description let alone make a career out of it. I respect them all, and I think all should....they don't have the most rewarding job as it is, and when the holier than thou start preaching about how they do this and that, I can only imagine that would make them "LOVE" their job all the more! You go Custodians!

I don't know how things are in the schools now but I did take some computer classes in the evening that were offered through Blackhawk Tech at one of the middle schools several years ago. Every time the class met, those attending had to step over a huge pile of garbage -- mostly paper but also candy wrappers, chip bags, pop cans -- that was swept up in the hallways and extended from locker to locker across the entire hallway in order for us to get to the classroom that we met in. Still think it was totally ridiculous to have that much garbage being swept up in the hallways every night. I did notice a number of garbage containers that were place in the hallways for collecting that kind of thing.. but obviously were not being used.

How about the outside cleanup. Just take a look at Craig or Parker High School. Trash is scattered all around the school ground campus. I am ashame that I went to Craig back in the early 60's, and now I see trash that strewd all over the place.

I agree with sunshine, complaints made..nothing done. If they would listen they would know who to get rid of.

Being an employee in the district for a number of years soon to retire I have seen the same custodians abuse their postions by not doing anything and getting paid. There a number of staff who won't even complain anymore because it does no good. So they come in on days off or stay late to clean their own rooms. My question is why does everyone keep looking the other way and not doing their job. From supervisers downtown to principles in the buildings. As far as team cleaning seems like it would be just another way enable the lazy custodians to continue to be lazy while the rest of the group does all the work.

High schools have it pretty bad right now. People do not even realize how much of an "area" a custodian has at parker or craig. I am sure that they are doing the best that they can. Some of the teachers need to be more realistic..actually look at the whole picture!!

People keep on making comments about "the old days?" Kids are completely different from when i went to school (@12 years for middle). I work at a middle school and it has gotten pathetic. I wouldn't trust some of these kids to clean ANYTHING!!

WE ARE GOING TO PAY THE MONEY TO "REMODEL" THE HIGH SCHOOLS BUT NOT PAY ANYONE TO MAINTAIN THEM??!! IF THEY ARE OPENED TO THE PUBLIC THEY WILL BE TRASHED..YOUR MONEY WASTED!!

whythink: yes, you are correct that what I have heard does apply only to some teachers with some custodians...Thank you for clarifying. As I re-read my post it did sound like I was referring to all custodians, and that was not my intention.

schnckstac1
Jun 8, 2009 at 9:07 p.m.
Suggest removal How about we stop expelling kids and start a dicipline program where the students that make bad choices have to clean???? Saves money and might help build some character??? Mmmmmmm???
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I don't know if I want the cleaning of a school to be done by the kids getting in the most trouble. The chemicals that need to be used are very dangerous...can anyone say playing with fire.
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In addition, the expelled program, the TATE Center, does an amazing job with the expelled kids. Many students leave TATE and return to a regular school and succeed/graduate. Why change a program that works?
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To the rumor mill about custodians not doing much. I am guessing the same rumors fly around within the custodians about some teachers. That one teacher could have a lazy custodian or that custodian could have been disrespected for doing some of the extra stuff by an up-tight teacher. Trust me, I have talked with custodians who are afraid to touch anything that in a classroom because some staff over react if anything is out of place.
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The custodian and the teacher need to talk. I am guessing some communication could make things better.
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Remember, there are bad/lazy everything: principals, teachers, custodians, students, etc... Most principals, teachers, custodians and students work very hard.

Now this shouldn't even be up for discussion! OF COURSE we want our schools clean....updated....and current. Schools are the foundation of our country. And we better start making them top priority or things are only going to keep going down hill for us as a nation. I can't even believe it is an option to think about not having 'as' clean schools. They should be cleaner if anything in my opinion. There are germs everywhere in a facility like that, and it is apparent that they are kept up!

gmaof3, hear hear.
I think today children would suffer "low self esteem" from being expected to clean...

At my children's elementary school here in town, the custodians are great!! The children get to take turns cleaning in the lunch room and they all want to. The custodian then lets them pick from a prize box, that they have purchased themselves. These wonderful custodians greet these kids everyday with a big smile and a high five. As far as I'm concerned they are as just as important as the rest of the staff at the school!

Another way-back-when tale: Detentions served after school at a private high school that I attended in Beloit involved students being assigned cleaning tasks. It made the time go faster and most of us didn't really mind the chores. Of course, I was smart enough not to gather more than a couple of detentions over my four years there.

schnckstac1 that is one of the best ideas yet.

There is a custodian at Marshall that thinks it's entirely the student's responsibility to pick up EVERYTHING in the cafeteria, even if it isn't anything that belonged to that student. There are certain kids that can make the messes and certain kids that will be told to pick up those messes. It's not exactly fair but it seems to work for that custodian.

Being familiar with the custodians at the elementary school level, they do a lot more than just clean. They are an important part of the staff. They have daily contact with the children and help in many more ways than just cleaning. Often they work above and beyond their expected duties many times without overtime. I don't know how many times they get called in the middle of the night to check out alarms going off or unexpected lights being on. I know my husband takes pride in his job at one of the elementary schools and does so much more than "take out the trash" once in awhile. And no, he does not make $58,000 a year and he pays a portion of our health insurance.

How about we stop expelling kids and start a dicipline program where the students that make bad choices have to clean???? Saves money and might help build some character??? Mmmmmmm???

I wonder how long it will be before they start letting preventive maintenance slide...again?

And before ya know it, it'll be referendum time...again!

According to several friends of mine who are teachers at one of the high schools here in town the only custodial service being provided in the classroom is taking out two garbage bags and putting in two new ones. Boards aren't being cleaned, floors are not swept much less mopped, student desks are not cleaned, and of course there is no general dusting of book cases, work areas, etc (as this has never been part of cusodial work).So, what exactly are the custodians doing all night? Most of these teachers are the ones who clean the student desks with anti-bacterial wipes and often they are scooping up piles of dirt from under desks that have fallen off of student boots and shoes. How can there be LESS cleaning than this? What is it that these custodians are cleaning? It certainly doesn't appear to be the classrooms that are being cleaned. Oh, and there is no recycling program at this high school either ( I have no idea if the one across town has a program or not). I believe a new club is trying to address the recycling issue...Maybe more custodians aren't needed, but the ones that are there need some major overhaul in terms of job performance or job description.

The teachers can take out their own trash, if needed. Recycle. Less chemicals. Save the money! Do whatever it takes to keep the schools clean, yet do it cost efficient please.

kty1309 - you are right - a multi-purpose cleaner could be more usefull AND more cost effective. It could be better for the environment as well. The article doesn't give such info, but I expect you know from a good source.

Are they union? Just curious...
Well, here I go again... "Back in the old days"...
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We had very few janitors at the schools. We didn't have cafeterias, we ate in our class rooms at our desks, on "oil cloths". The milk cartons were delivered to each room and EVERYONE ate sack lunches. The teacher had a small bucket she filled with water and dish soap for us to clean off our desk cloths and at the same time it cleaned our hands. Kids weren't rushed to finish their lunches, when we were done, we could go out and play for recess.
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At the end of the day, the teacher pushed the garbage can out into the hallway, after we left for the day. The janitor would walk the hall and dump the cans, then place them just inside each classroom.
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Each class had the student of the week. It was considered a privilege to be the teacher's helper. The helper passed out the morning milk. The lunch milk... got to help with the flip charts, passing out papers, collecting papers, help with the reading and spelling stuff. Then, at the end of the day, ALL kids checked the floor around their desks, straightened anything that was out of place and made sure the room looked just as nice as when we came in.
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When it was close to time to leave for the day on Fridays, we all stood up, pushed all our desks to one side of the room and the helper pushed the broom across the floor (usually with assistance from our teacher), then we moved all the desks to the other side and did the same thing. Sometimes the teachers would get together and classes would race for little stickers to be the first class done. It was fun!
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Involve the kids... it gives them a sense of pride if administered properly! Nothing wrong with children being involved in the cleanliness of their school!

*Just ask me: Don't worry about bins...whats supposed to be recycled just gets thrown into the dumpster with the rest of the trash outside...

I think fewer chemicals is always a better option, not cost wise, but for health. Maybe this could be used as an introduction into a greener way of cleaning.

JustAskMe, it doesn't have to mean less cleaning, just more cost effective means of cleaning. If a cleaner that is more multi-purpose can be found to be just as effective as the three they were using then by all means, consolidate. There is cost savings in buying in quantity, not to mention the ease of use for the custodial staff, less MSDS sheets to be acquired, so therefore less paperwork, etc...

I would not be opposed to letting the kids do some of the daily housekeeping of the classroom. It would be nice to see the kids take some pride in their schools. I am not saying clean the building, but tidying their classrooms. This may actually be viewed as a positive thing for the children by allowing them take responsibility for things.

sannio, the article said the *cost* is an estimaged 58k per custodian, not the compensation. There's a lot more to hiring an employee than their salary. Benefits are expensive.

While I'm sure they're worth every penny, $58,000/year compensation seems a little steep to me. Maybe there's costs I don't know about.

Example:

Social Worker
WI-DCF BMCW
Pay: $37,228.00 Per Year to $44,150.00 Per Year
In order to obtain licensure most applicants, will need to have completed a Bachelor of Social Work or Masters of Social Work program.

I bet on next year's school supply list, parents will see "can of Raid" for all the roaches and ants that will be moving in.

Lets see - to empty a recycle bin must take AT LEAST 30 seconds. The savings would be enormous!

How clean would the schools be if you limit the cleaning chemicals. Somebody needs to WAKE UP.

Don't the students in Japanese schools clean their own classrooms? Let the custodians tend to the common areas and perform facility maintenance. That would allow for a minimal staff, and hopefully if the kids had to daily clean their own rooms, they'd take better care of them.