Momof5...try and stay with me here:)....we need the utility companies--they provide a necessary service that benefits all those that use it. How they choose to allocate the money they collect makes absolutely no difference to me. GM, on the other hand, could simply disappear and the majority of the population wouldn't even realize it was gone. To throw another $14 billion at that mess is pure stupidity. Bankruptcy is the only answer for them at this point.

Whether you're a bank, a car manufacturer or a small business, if you run your business wisely, you succeed. If you do not, you fail and deserve to go away. That's the simple and harsh reality of businees. Forcing taxpayers to fund billions and trillions of dollars in bailout money to companies that obviously don't have a clue how to run a business is ridiculous.

916WI: I didn't prove any point of yours. You, my friend, are double talking. You are ok with funding pensions of power companies. Ok.

What I said was NO bank in the US could afford right now to subsidize a large loan right now to ANY corporation. Period. That wasn't your point!!!

momof5...Thanks for making my point:) You're right--banks do not have that money to lend because any legitimate business would never need to borrow it. Any company that has to borrow $14 billion just to cover operating expenses is a company that needs to be put out of its misery.....Don't you think?

ihavealife--the power company analogy makes absolutely no sense. We need electricity and natural gas--they can charge whatever they want for it and people will pay. I have no problem covering those expenses every month because I use the services they provide. GM is a completely different story. I haven't owned a car made by an American automaker in over 10 years, to say that my tax dollars should be "invested"(thrown away would be a more accurate description) in that company makes about as much sense as your analogy.......

"People are not looking at any cars, not just GM. In point of fact, GM has outsold Toyota both months this year, and Toyota took out a loan last month, and asked for $2 billion more this month. It is not just a US problem, it`s a world problem."

The difference is that Toyota is not asking for YOUR tax dollars. Why would you care if they got money from Japan? Ford made smart decisions, and is weathering the storm for now. There is nothing special about GM that they deserve a loan they will never repay.

"Conservative estimate of government money for GM bankruptcy, $46 billion, high end, $86 billion. We`ll see!"

GM is currenly seeking a total of $30 billion of our tax dollars. That's an estimate of what they really need. That will not be enough, and this won't be the last time they ask for money. They will still fail, and never pay it back. With sales dropping 50% or more, there is no longer any reason to bail out GM. The market size dictates that GM shed dealers, brands and management. That will only happen through a chapter 11 reorganization.

Rooster,
Great comments.
Our childrens kids will never be able to forgive us for this; we had the world by the you know what and just pissed it away, I can hardly function I am so upset. Untill we hold these elected officals accountable we are never going to over come this.

Unfortunately if there is no GM, then benefits for retirees will likely be cut along with tens of thousands of more jobs. That's just the way things work. GM has done nearly everything possible to avoid bankruptcy and I'm confident they'd prefer not to have to do any of the above. Nonetheless, if consumer confidence doesn't pick up and people don't start buying more cars, then there is nothing GM can do to save itself. It's really up to the consumers now, which are suffering in numerous ways due to the economy.

BTW, 916WI, I doubt any bank in the US market has that kind of capital lying around to loan to ANY company. AND if they do...it is tax payer bailout money. Thanks for playing.

916WI: NO retiree, in ANY sector, should EVER have their benefits slashed or compromised. Period. Of course it happens, and of course it is outrageous and unjust. But, that doesn't make it right and doesn't mean 100s of 1000s of hardworking men and women who DEPEND on that money should have to be the sacrifical lambs so to speak because others had to.

There are no easy answers to this mess GM has found themselves in. No one ever wants to take less or do away with more. But, at the end of the day, $5 in the bank is better than nothing.

With the fragility of the GLOBAL economy, GM may be the first to go belly up--but they won't be the only casualty.

To say Toyota got a loan and not a bailout is a little suspect. Toyota's motherland is where? Japan. Don't be so foolish to think their government didn't have a hand in the lending bank's cookie jar!

Most pensions will be covered. The ones that will get hurt the most are younger retirees. But, we will still pay for it through the PBGF, our tax dollars, and the tax dollars of the GM workers. $46-$86, even saw one source that said it could cost $100 billion for a GM bankruptcy, our money.

Factcheck--That's the difference, Toyota took out a loan. No bank in their right mind would give GM a loan, because they know the money would never get repaid. Their financials are a complete joke. Yet in walks in our government with an open checkbook--"need $14 billion--sure, the taxpayers won't miss it..." It's pathetic and it needs to stop......

Momof5--obviously you're having problems comprehending what is going on here. So please try and stay with me......Not sock it to the retirees, rather don't change the rules for them. The pensions of retirees in other industries were compromised with the current economic collapse, what are we doing to help them? What makes the pensions/benefits of the autoworkers more important than those of others? Nothing does. The taxpayer did NOT sign on to subsidize the pensions and benefits these retirees over and above the programs already put in place by the government. GM burned though billions of taxpayer money last quarter with no sign of it making one bit of difference. What are you smoking to make you think that this will change anytime soon? Thanks for listening:)

zoom, it's a little more complicated than that! There is a plethera of people who have retired that are expecting a pension until they die from them. Who's going to pay those people?

sorry--should be "they' not the and "lose" not loose.

factcheck: FINALLY someone with a clue...!!! The only automaker to NOT drop this last quarter was Hyundai. Why? Well, the guarantee that if you loose your job, they will take the car back from you--no strings. Their sales went UP 11%. Can't wait until all these new Hyundai owners start driving their Santa Fe's and Sonata's to the unemployment office. They'll be in a worse slump than GM then!

916WI: I'm just wondering...are you friends with thekid? Because, "wth are you smoking" comes to mind while reading your post. Really? Sock it to the retirees? Brilliant. Pure brillance.

People are not looking at any cars, not just GM. In point of fact, GM has outsold Toyota both months this year, and Toyota took out a loan last month, and asked for $2 billion more this month. It is not just a US problem, it`s a world problem.

Conservative estimate of government money for GM bankruptcy, $46 billion, high end, $86 billion. We`ll see!

don't you understand that management is recycled from one failing company to another? Most CEO's were CEO's somewhere else first and there is a reason why they are not a CEO at the first company any more.
New management will not fix the auto industry. Sorry to rain on your parade.

Because it is Corporate America we should bail them out with stimulus money and automaker bail out money? Why? They should know business better than all of us right? let them go bankrupt and hire all new management...

Auditors are the start of the Chapter 11 process. At this point, how would a GM Chapter 11 bankruptcy be any worse than what we have now? Sales have already tanked. People are still being laid off. Factories are still closing. Those consumers that were on the fence about buying GM cars are not looking at GM for fear they might actually go bankrupt. Better to start the process and get it over with.

I would rather have to deal with negotiating revised pension and medical terms with retirees--they might have to make some concessions, as we have all had to do, rather than keep pumping an insane amount of money into this pig of a company. They're done.......last one out, turn the lights off and lock the door.......

$100,000 per family? Lets say there is 320 million people and the average family is 4. That is 80,000,000 families. $100,000 would be $8 trillion if I am carrying my zeros correctly. That is 10 times the bailout. Inflation would skyrocket and the economy would be in turmoil.

I don't agree with the bailout but the $100,000 doesn't work.

runnoft, yes that is exactly what i meant, i didn't proofread carefully enough before posting. (on another note, not proofreading was my biggest downfall in English classes in school, because i was lazy)
thank you for pointing it out and correcting it, and i am listening to Jessie's Girl right now.
And he's watching him with those eyes...You know i wish i had Jessie's girl...where can i find a woman like that?

The third party is the Pension Benefit Guaranty Fund, a government entity that is almost broke and will need a " bailout." The only ones moved to Medicare were white collar workers after turning 65. I wouldn`t be surprised if that did happen to blue collar workers in the ongoing negotiations, but it hasn`t yet.

fact check, i think you need to check the facts. Pensions are insured with a 3rd party, so people will still get most of their pension. On the health insurance thing, GM is already starting to pull the plug on this forcing those of age to get medicare and supplemental on their own. so a mute point.

Time to pull the plug. I can think of a lot of other ways to waste money, we could build the worlds biggest hot fudge sundae and at least when it came time to eat it, everyone could grab a spoon, not just a select few. Billy Durant took advantage of other car makers weaknesses in the early 20th century. GM's best bet is to try and merge or have another company take them on. This has gone on for long enough. GM has been on a long decline since the late 60's, this is it, this is how it ends, read them their last rights and bow your heads........amen.

Sorry, mispelling, "moving".

MacDaddy: I said the same thing. If our government wanted to see the economy moing again, they should have given $100,000 to every working taxpayer family. Giving it to the banks that are sticking it to us even now was totally wrong.

If they go down, we are on the hook for the pensions, and maybe the health care. Got any idea how much the taxpayer will pay for that?

i agree with Diplomat, you can't let the banks go under, but there are other alternatives than to just hand them a blank check.
.
For instance here is my solution. Give every American Family $100,000, cash. No taxes on it. What would happen is one of three things. People would spend it on stuff, people would save it, or people would pay off debt. With all three of those things going back to the banks, but also helping out all families possibly lower their overhead and debt obligations.
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Thoughts on that?
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By the way, we need to let GM go down, so they can come back stronger, maybe that should be their new car name, "The Phoenix" and rise from the ashes.

You really don't have a clue when it comes to economics. Letting the big banks go under would have been an complete disaster.

bailouts across the board have been dumb and they are unsustanable. no one should have been bailed out. not the banks, not anybody. then the economy would have started over again with a level playing field. now of course, the japs are going to fund their automakers who, thanks to japanese state paid health care, have enjoyed a large margin in cost over the american auto maker. both have similar basic wages. now obama is considering global socialism in his meetings with the english prime minister. won't that be nice. we can go DOWN to their level of socialistic economics. today watch for a stock market dive.