chad_vader: I totally agree with you. People are directing their anger at the wrong people. It's the ceo's who screwed everyone over and made out on this deal. They should be made to pay the benefits and pension to the employees that they were promised and guaranteed. Companies should not make promises they can't keep. If they do, they should be held responsible, not the tax payers.

Skilled trades = transferrable employment skills!

Dallas1 - you should feel bad because our wages may have contributed to your wages, directly or indirectly. People who don't understand the economics of that, I pity.

ok snuffy they are real pipefitters and electricians went to school to be an electrician and pipefitter

I wonder if there would be some type of test for the "technically" gifted?? Perhaps they could be "grandfathered" in some how??

by the way they are "technically" pipefitters and electricians.

all I know is that my brother is a pipefitter he got a job as a pipefitter same with his partner from GM, also I know some electricians that got electricians jobs. don't assume you know what someone is trying to say.

People....where is all the compassion? If this type of situation has happened to one of the largest AMERICAN corporations in the world, albeit, an AMERICAN ICON for decades, what's next??? As Americans, we all need to be concerned.

OH and bigbro you are funny you don't know what you are talking about either. Like I said to hannah I know skilled trade people from GM that got jobs in the skilled trade fields they worked in at GM, electricians, pipe fitters so you either don't know what you are talking about.

Dallas1 you know didly squat about GM workers, they do not want any sympathy or want anyone to feel sorry for them. Most of them have put money aside. Not all of them drink. I see alot of green in your eyes just by the way you talk.

Hannah I disagree my brother was skilled trade at GM and he got a job outside of GM doing the exact same thing he did at GM, it actually helped him get the job, he isn't the only one from GM skilled trades that has gotten a job in the field they had worked in.

yes it is bad that people could lose pensions and insurance but you GMers havent had to pay diddly squat for insurance or benefits for yearsss compared to the rest of us working people. Tell me why any of us should feel pity for you.Maybe all of you people that have been collecting wages for nothing and going to school for free should have been taking that money and sticking some of it in the bank (wow there is a new concept for most of you) instead of in the liquor store or in your toys or whatever your pleasure is. To think all of the GM people deserve any kind of sympathy is ridiculous. What about the rest of the people in janesville that have lost jobs either related to GMs downfall or not that havent received any special benefits? What in the heck makes GM people so special? i just dont get where you GM people come off thinking you deserve anything else.

Maybe GM should have had all of you people working instead of sucking them dry for the past 2 years sitting at home doing nothing and getting CLOSE TO FULL PAY. that is a joke right there. what company does that? oh yeah, a company going bankrupt. go figure!

to all you so called skilled trade people . who found out on the outside they weren't so skilled trade after all,,,, lol..

ARRGH! That be right matthew516, I know me a pair of wenches that want to be married. Don't you know the Feds wont let them partake in any of the tax bennies. Says their not married and can't never be. I be guessin they not be any part of "WE THE PEOPLE" you'd be interested in helpin to get their freedoms? Maybe you think your nanny Govt. got that one right? RAmen

ihavealife, on May 21 wrote: "Where do some of you get your info from ??? When I married my husband in the mid 80's he made $9.95 hr working at GM.When he started at GM he made $2.60....70 cents above min.wage.In 1975 GM paid $7.?? hr.I was hired at GM in 1995 and my starting wage was to be $15.?? for the first year and then after I would of made $17.??I didn't take the job so I could stay home with our kids.My point is the workers EARNED their pay over the years.No one just walked thru the door and was given $30.00hr like some of you think.It really is too bad some of you can't/won't move on with your lives and let the GM workers do the same. We all had lives with GM and have lives after GM."
-----------------------------------------
So, see smarty, I wasn't really that far off. It sure as heck wasnt the $12 you thought. I'm sure you'll be first in line to apply when/if the plant reopens.

chad: I'm all set then seeings how I don't really like cookies. :)

smarty: learn to read before you post crap, please and thank you.

That's exactly true Mathew. Everytime the govt. comes out with a new program, they're telling the American people we're too stupid to figure it out ourselves. Hence, the loss of freedoms that come slowly but surely without notice by most.

"The Obama administration has said it would only provide more funds if 90 percent of the bondholders, as well as unionized workers, agreed to concessions that substantially reduced GM's costs."...............
In other words, the American people are too stupid to figure things out on their own so our president/govt. decides to be our mommy and daddy. This what "WE THE PEOPLE" are being minimized to and it's not the govt. that's doing it, it's US doing it to ourselves! I'm not playing.

smarty - of course it is a struggle to get on with a life that was blown up like a house in a tornado! Duh! And how does looking back at working with friends and neighbors, missing the comradeship, and keeping a part of the past that was so relevant to our live in our hearts and minds relate to being something bad. That is just being human. What are you, a heartless and emotionless pile of flesh?

PropertyManager.... THANK YOU for your service. You stated what many others have felt. But these whiney GM folks are really struggling to get on with their lives and still can't stop looking back. Someday the may find the courage to accept change. Again, thank you for your service, your WORK and sacrifice on my behalf makes me humble.

momof5...are you serious? In 1979 a 'plant rat' made $2? And look who is calling who an uninformed arse. Come on people.. what would a 'plant rat' make in 1979.. let's hear it. I'm gonna guess $12 or above?? But I would bet it wasn't $2 !!

Momof5 - that job would be a Congressman or Senator. You only get released if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

How does one acquire a job where the employer cannot lay them off? Please sign me up!!

justsayno--I'm seriously hoping your comment about "mean nasty things" was a general comment to everyone, because I certainly don't recall making any to you about your posts about your husband's layoff. All I can remember is your anger at your husband's employer of 17 years laying him off. I didn't recall a post saying it didn't happen-and yes, I may have missed it. I doubt very much if I even commented on your posts (on the BTC subject). If he wasn't finally laid off, I'm sure I would have thought it was a GOOD thing.
My reason for posting here earlier today was simply to suggest that ANYONE'S layoff-white collar, blue collar, or whatever-ESPECIALLY someone with many years on the same job-is regrettable and just as important as the next one. And I was also suggesting that whether one is educated or not should have no bearing on whether or not the person doing meaningful work should be treated with dignity. Of course he/she should be-from the doctor to the teacher to the trash collector. I'm sure you agree. They shouldn't all get degrees in case they eventually might face job loss. If that happened, who would do the "less glamorous" jobs that didn't require further education? Unless they paid more. hmmm
Now please, if I said mean, nasty things to you, I'm asking you to point them out so that I can give you a proper apology. If you didn't mean me in particular, or you just remembered wrong, or had a wrong perception, then please clear that up as well.
Thank you.
Oh-and BTW-as far as the "you regulars on here..." comment-you and I have a similar number of posts over a similar amount of registered time. I guess we're both "regulars on here."

justsayno-wasn't it just about a year ago you were very angry when your husband's employer of 17 years was laying him off? Didn't he have a "higher" education? It CAN happen to anyone. And tom is correct about GM workers and education, but education comes in many forms. Where would we be if those jobs which took other than "book-learning" were never taken? How about your own individual work with your family? You may or may not have a post-secondary education dedicated specifically for that purpose, (do you?), but if not, that does not make that work demeaning, nor should you be thought less of because your at home work doesn't require a college education (not counting autism-specific consultation with your doctors, etc). Please have the same consideration for others in jobs not requiring a degree. Think of all of those jobs that make your life a little bit easier.

justasynotomath some of these laid off employees of GM are educated. Some of them actually have degrees. GM also sent their skilled trade workers to school they are educated. It takes alot of guts to say that they are not educated.

darwin1 - I actually agree with your last post. I would have wrote it the same.

Darwin- truth is they dont want to be stuck paying it..And your right, it is sad.

This is a very sad situation. How is it that Congress can pass all kinds of absurd laws protecting horses from being slaughtered but can't somehow pass a law to protect pensions from incompetent or fraudulent managers? Company managers who squander pensions should go to jail and have ALL their assets seized.

Your right, better aerodynamics is a code word for Butt Ugly. But if that is what you want, I am happy for you. As I said before, most people with a choice will choose comfort over mpg. But with with greedy OPEC jacking up prices, they force choices on people.

Justdsay, it's good to see husbandof has a job in the prius ed center now. I am curious as to why he was down there (GM ed center) if the writing was on the wall a decade ago?

Your implication that nobody purchased a ginormous SUV to feal "special" is funny. What do you think drove the SUV craze? Few of those buyers had 4 kids or a boat to tow.

You think there is some conspiracy by the media to downplay the transplant's recalls? Oh my.

When people buy a Prius, they know they are trading some style for better fuel economy. It's delibrately shaped the way it is for better aerodynamics. What, exactly, did buyers get in return for buying an ugly Aztek, besides poor resale value?

yeah, the Rendezvous got slammed by everyone for being ugly, yet the Prius gets a pass. Why? Same reason the big 3 recalls are on the front page, while foriegn brand recalls are hid towards the last pages. I remember my sister had a Honda Civic recalled for trans lines causing fires, during the same time I had a Cavalier recalled for a non life threatening item. Guess which made the front page in big letters and which was in small type at the end of the paper.

Chad: whenever I see a Prius, the chorus "U-g-l-y, you ain't got no alibi, you ugly, yeah yeah you ugly" pops into my head. It's the darndest thing!

zoom - in 2007 GM had less recalls than either Toyota or Honda. In 2008 Toyota's recalls went up too. They will find it harder to keep stuff in check the larger they get.

no, but all the eco-nazis and the people who blindly jump on the Prius bandwagon make me puke. It is what it is, a small car that gets good gas mileage. But everyone thinks its something so grand, and apparently it can catch on fire. If your priorities are to be "special", get good gas mileage, get leg cramps from driving 10 miles, have no storage or towing capabilities, well fine for you! But they should not preach to everyone about what they should get. Prius owners tend to be smug, of course that may be the only the ones I know of or read posts by.

Justsay no: Good lord. The writing was on the wall a decade ago? Maybe. But, I can assure you it was written in invisible ink. 10 years ago, THIS GM plant was working Mon-Fri 10 hours a day/2 shifts per day AND they still couldn't keep up with demand. The hours weren't "long" but I can remember a time when "they" were working some Saturdays too! At one point, there was upwards of a 6 week wait to get a Tahoe/Suburban.

I get that you want the world to be fair and just--even steven if you will. You complain when others with a house fire got more publicity than you, etc.., But, really, justsayno--if you don't know what the heck you are talking about, then shut the heck up! Sharing your opinion is one thing, but when you try and tie that opinion to "facts" that don't even exist that's a completely different beast!

And--PS--a decade ago? GM was the #1 selling brand and had "hits" like the Cavalier, Grand Am and newly reintroduced Malibu in addition to the Tahoe and Suburban. Get a grip on your jealousy: green eyes aren't flattering on everyone!

Anybody can play that game.

"NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- August 28, 2008 -- General Motors is recalling 944,000 vehicles, 850,000 of them in the United States, because of the potential for a fire in the vehicles' heated windshield washer fluid system."
http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/gm/c...

August 10, 2006
The federally mandated recall of several General Motors trucks because of a potential fuel leak that could result in an engine compartment fire may have come too late for one California family.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/20...

chad, I'm wondering why you're so fixated on the Prius. Do you have Prius envy?

justsayno - go ahead and buy one of them hybrid Prius'. They are great for cookouts too!Just check here on info for Grilling with a Prius:
http://www.carspace.com/suzikn/Albums/pr...

Amazing how you never read about this stuff when it happens to Import cars, just for the big 3.

Justsay-- its attitudes like yours- that help to kill the American economy...

It really is sad how jealous of GM workers some people still are. I never worked there, but I would never wish bad upon anyone, just because they made a comfortable wage in what is considered "unskilled" work.

Sorry, I meant to say North American production.

zoom, if Ford is going to sell more than GM in north America they better "try harder", they haven`t outsold them for any month this year yet.

ihavealife, GM, Chrysler and Ford have never had the same number of employees, but have also never had the same sales volume, until this year, when Ford will sell more than GM in north America. You should know that whenever a union contract was negotiated for one company, the other companies received almost the exact same deal.

Sorry, Chad! I will *try* and not let it happen again. No promises though! :)

I wouldn't think the pensions would be in any danger at least until GM CEO Barack Obama collects on his after he hands the reigns over to Hillary when he's gone.

Hey, quit talking logic there , momof5, you will make their heads explode. Then there would be the headline "GM/UAW talk causes heads to explode".

noteworthy: I highly doubt a retiree will make more than $3,000/month at BW3's.

I don't understand this either, chad_vader. Some criticize people for not saving and "making" the taxpayer foot the bill. But, then out of the other side of their mouth, they complain that "retirees" are out getting jobs. Big whoop. Some people LIKE to work. Others want to add to their nest egg--incase this rainy day turns into a full-out monsoon.

Besides...if a high and mighty GM retiree/worker is working at BW3's WAITING on people, doesn't that debunk the preconceived notion that "they" are above the common folk????

The article poses a question. The answer is "yes". The extent of the peril is yet to be seen and speculation is just that. This is similar and related to the question "Will GM file for bankruptcy?"
Of course they are going to file! They are acting reluctant to minimize the backlash. They are hanging on to buy time while they figure out how to steal everything that is and isn't bolted down before the feds lock the doors. In the meantime, billions of dollars in federal loans that will largely be forgiven or paid back by someone else are a huge incentive to keep hanging on for as long as possible.

woodsman...I WASN'T an "ungrateful" brat growing up. I started babysitting when I turned 11(until I was 18) and got my first job at 16. I bought a lot of my own things because my parents taught me the value of money at a young age. Imagine this, I'm also an only child! We didn't have toys, had one car, and our vacations consisted of 1 week at a resort in Northern Wisconsin and 1 week of camping....in a tent. No frills in my family. I'm now a 42 year old adult, and I don't live under my parents roof, therfore, I can purchase a car that fits my needs. We also have a 2002 Tahoe that we will drive til it dies, which may not be far off. Things going wrong here and there. Anyways, start looking at your clothing labels, 5 bucks says they aren't made in the USA. By the way, my dad really likes my car and is considering one for himself now that he wouldn't have to drive it to work or the Union Hall.

momof5 - I remember 2 short strikes since 1978.That's about it. Of course all that was pretty much given back in the last contract.

"I guess what I'm asking is did the higher wage contracts put GM at a competitive disadvantage or was it just poor management, marketing and planning?"

It's the latter. Ford is surviving, with essentially the same wage and benefit burden as GM and Chrysler.

Chad and any others who worked at GM: how many times and for how long did LOCAL 95 strike since 1974???

I know there have been strikes at this plant, but by and large I remember them being on a national level. Maybe hannah is remembering something different than I am.

Hannah: you can find a dual income family working in ANY sector who has horrible credit. Working here or there doesn't make one immune to poor financial decisions. Some people just don't know how to manage their money-no matter how much or little of it they make. And, GM insurance isn't what it once was.

We test drove a Pontiac G8 today. Beee-u-t-fullll car!

Chad - Ignore the haters, For me I have great respect for anyone who lost a good job at GM, LSI, Baker, or wherever and they are taking any job to put food on the table or for the health insurance. I'll bet the level of integrity they'll get from these people is off the charts as compared with the typical inexperienced or new to the working world person. Nothing worse than having people not show up for work because they had the all important concert, night out on the town with friends, etc. These companies are getting quality people at a steal. Good Luck to all the GMer's, LSI and unemployed workers.

wait, first people aren't planning for a rainy day. Now it is said they are looking ahead and trying to get jobs? Which way is it? This is sooooo confusing!

I heard that Buffalo Wild Wings had a lot of GM retires appling for jobs - I can see why if the retires are only getting $3000 plus a month from their GM pension... They are going to need the extra money...

creature - pretty good on the time line. My view, after 30 years with the company, is those years were full of mismanagement. Let the buck stop where it belongs, with the people in charger of running the company. That is not the UAW. The Union never designed a vehicle, never set prices, or instituted quality policies that the ended up ordering workers to ignore to make production numbers. The UAW represented the labor, and did their best to get what they could for benefits. Are there mistakes made on both sides? yes. But I still don't see management looking at labor as a partner, just as a means to pay their bonus.

Saw a report on Yahoo Finance that a deal was made with GM/UAW/Government. All that is left is the bondholders and then no Chapter 11. The short story for the deal was GM giving 39% of stock for the 10 Billion of the 20 Billion owed the trust fund. More plant closings to come. From reading the various posts about wages/benefits over the years sounded like the higher hourly wages didn't kick in until the early 80's? At what point did the Big 3 begin to really take a hit against imports, late 80's, 90's...? I guess what I'm asking is did the higher wage contracts put GM at a competitive disadvantage or was it just poor management, marketing and planning? Just wondering if anyone wants to share an opinion. For me the answer was GM management wrote checks they couldn't cover and the end result put people out of work. The UAW had to see it coming and didn't rally the troops for the long haul. Be strong guys your future will get better.

Reading through all the comments, I cant get over all the petty remarks people are making. One can definetely tell the community is divided on these issues. Lets face it people, GM is gone and never coming back. As for the pensions; how anyone can not feel a certain amount of pain for people that worked at GM is beyond me. I really feel that the people of Janesville would be wise to direct their concerns toward the local government for answers as to what they are going to do to lure companies into Janesville so jobs become available again. Instead of beating a dead horse, we need to look towards the future and hope and pray our once prosperous city has the right people at the helm to overcome this tragedy that we are experiencing right now. As far as the pension issue is concerned, the PGGC is now operating 34 billion dollars to the red. NOT GOOD! We can thank a federal judge who ruled that United Airlines could bail out of their pension obligations to their employees and set a disturbing precedent for other mismanaged companies. Its obvious we need change. Change in attitudes, change in spending habits, and mostly, change in tolerance. We simply cannot allow anything even close to this to happen again. I truly believe we will get another chance in time to do what is right. However, we desperately need to make sure the right people are running the show. We cannot accept or tolerate the "ME" lifestyle any longer. Overindulgence and spend til your at your limit have paid a major role in the problems we face today. I dont think anyone can argue that.

916WI - transplants use up to 47% domestic content compared to at least 80% for GM. Does not compare as far as jobs made through local content.
Oh, and the great Toyota Prius -0%

There are unions in other countries.In fact Germany has some of the strongest Unions. japan has labor unions. If you truly believe in education you would study the labor movement and see why it was/is needed. Capitalism is founded on one person mutually agreeing to a cost for the other persons product. Our product is labor. And before there I am burned at the stake here, as like a lot of things it is not perfect. I see there needs to be changes made to bring the unions back on focus. But for all those espousing capitalism, you should have also studied why the average worker found a voice in collective bargaining.

hannah - did you even read what I wrote? Your comment makes no sense - as usual.

If employer opts, it is usually allowable for retirees to take a lump sum distribution versus an annuity, paying monthly, etc. This is the exact reason - the retiree has control of their money, not prior employer. Years ago, when life was simple, including the investment world, monthly annuity payouts were the norm. The last twenty years or so have been completely different. Companies go bankrupt, investment houses are plentiful. I would never leave a retirement benefit connected with a prior employer, regardless of the number of years of service but rather roll it in to an IRA and retain professional advice for investing guidance, if needed.

So......what is the union doing for you all now? Do other countries have unions? I really do not see how a union benefits anyone except drive up the prices of the product so they can pay the employees outrageous wages and then take a cut in union dues...what have they really done for you? Why would GM want to deal with the unions if there is none in other countries? lol...Union.

Ok, I am seriously going outside now, but I wanted to add something else. The figures some of you put on here, I would like to remind all are placed into the public's knowledge very carefully. Meaning, until we sit in that accountant's chair, I think it is safe to assume that all dollar figures we as the common citizen see, aren't accurate. Just my opinion. So, I tend to not invest much effort on what the media states according to monies spent....etc... makes for a much easier day in my world.

ANONAMOUSE...Seriously right? I have no problem passing by and forgetting about something that pertains none to me! I wish others could lighten up as well! We give those the power to offend us.......don't give them that power!!!! :)

Chad Vader wrote" 916WI - the problem is that they are sending most of the profits back to the homeland. Very little is kept in our economy. Plus, with all those moronic Governors giving away free land, dismissing taxes, ect. who do you think is paying for all that!! The Taxpayer! But it's ok, it's all under the table. Not in the news like for GM."

Actually quite a bit is kept in our economy. Millions spent on salaries, construction, logistics, etc. The states that give land and tax subsidies will more than recoup them through income and property taxes. The reason those subsidies are not talked about is because they are commonplace--it is done all the time in manufacturing and retail. As far as the profits going overseas, that's completely understandable, they should get a return on investment. GM profits have been non-existent for years, so they're not exactly contributing to our economic base--actually they cost us $15 billion this year.......so the transplants are arguably better for our economy at this point......

TOM...I would NEVER ever mean to offend someone, and I am sorry if I did! I was just trying to make a generic comparison, of how we are rebuilding Iraq...etc. when in my opinion we should be out of there already. But that is my opinion... I would never mean to upset you or any other military family/member. I have a best friend who is a Sgt. in the Air Force and is stationed in Germany and I would never mean to say something mean. I was just saying, America is not of "one" "color" anymore, metaphorically speaking. So sorry if I upset you in any way. :(

Just remember guys, you still have the right to NOT read about GM peoples problems.
_____________
Likewise you can scroll past our comments too.

OK, g'all darn it, all this talk about General Motors made me mindlessly go to the garage and crack open a nice cold one and squeeze a little lemon it....now why on earth would that happen??? JUST KIDDING! But I did crack a nice cold one, and squeezed a lemon in it and am heading outside to smell my roses! :~)

Mu husband is over in Iraq he is not over there to pay back any debt, I also have friends in Afghanistan and they are no over there to pay back any debt.

I agree that people are getting sick of hearing about scorned GM employees, but I do have to say, the reason it is such a long drawn out topic is because there were SOOOO many effected within ONE company. The economy's troubles as a whole is in the news everyday also, it is just not labeled because it is of combined lost jobs. There are not many industries that can make or break a community, and as it seems, GM is one of those industries that has detrimental effects on a nation as a whole. Some may not like to admit that for lack of respect for the company, but it doesn't change the truth.

My point is, and I am in no position to state I do this or that, because I guess I go a bit John Kerry every now and then. I think that I want my money to stay in my country and protect my rights and freedoms, but then in the next breath I will talk about all of the awesome deals I got at Wal*Mart with all of my wonderful coupons (heck my coupons are probably printed on paper made outside of the states), who get most of their merchandise "not" from America. So, in order to support my means, I am forced to shop at Wal*Mart and other not so American friendly places. At the end of the day, we really only have ourselves to rely on, and we need to make due with what we have. And as ideal and peachy as it sounds and looks in a picture as a whole, it just isn't feasible for some families to live the "American" way. They need to live "Their" way, because in reality, America has failed many Americans, and it is really coming down to the survival of the fittest. People do many things that are against principles when they are desperate. Just look at a homeless person. They do whatever they have to, just to survive. Things that wouldn't even cross their minds when they once had a home. So, it isn't any of our places, rights or jobs to tell another what they should do with their monies until we are going to contribute to the cause we are choosing to criticize!

Just remember guys, you still have the right to NOT read about GM peoples problems.
There were people getting $10 and less for maintenance , ect. I had no problem with taking less compensation for jobs that were less physical. There are problems all over, but the real problem is that the people who really get hurt are those not in a position to really make changes. Those are the targets that should hit with the anger now.
And the difference with footing the bill for GM, yes it is the same, but even MORE of that help stays in the US if we keep jobs here.

TOM ~ the comparison may not make sense to you, but it does to me. At the end of the day, isn't it all about money? And our troops work that are working and giving their lives every single day are pretty much doing it to pay back a debt we have to another country....sounds about the same to me.

Chad you may be correct that the tax payers are going to end up footing the bill for the foreign autoworkers but aren't we going to be doing the same with GM workers? All are americans and we all do what we can to feed our families and put a roof over our heads. Also as Americans we live in a society where we are free to buy what we want and or need. Unfortunatley GM didn't keep up with what the public wants and or needs at an affordable price. Now they are paying for it. Yes it sucks but it happens. Many businesses go out of business when they are no longer competitive.

People are getting rather sick of the GM employees plight. Everyone is hurting right now. EVERYONE

I think this comment by anonomouse sums it all up.

Chad - I think it is pretty clear that GM line workers were very well compensated. Not saying there is anything wrong with that - hell if I could make $30+ per hour for line work - I would - I think most people would. But there comes a point when you have to stop and think that most factory line jobs make between $8-$16/hour. Not a awesome wage - but I would argue a fair one. Now I know you will argue with me about the union - but this really isn't about that. Worker wages drove up the price of the cars along with other factors.

Chad I hope things work out for GM pensions but just because I bought an American made Foreign car doesn't mean I'm anti American. I needed a reliable vehicle. I didn't need to tow or anything special so I wasn't going to go further in debt to support GM who I've had bad luck with. Obsessive debt is what got us all into this bad economy. If you haven't noticed its not all GM. The housing crisis started it. People can't buy new GM or any other vehicles if they are getting foreclosed on and laid off. People are getting rather sick of the GM employees plight. Everyone is hurting right now. EVERYONE

anonomouse - well said. I believe that most people buy what they can afford - and something that suits their needs. I won't buy "American" just because it is American - and I won't buy foreign just because it is foreign. I buy what I can afford that will meet my needs the best. This goes for all products that I buy. I don't have the luxury of having an unlimited budget so I have to weigh my choices and choose the best value for the money I want to spend.

anonomouse - these companies held states hostage to get what they wanted in tax breaks and other freebies. Who is paying for this???
It's like us paying for those who cannot afford medical insurance. Someone still pays, but it isn't a direct connection.

tty1023 - the UAW has given back a lot lately, did you see the prices go down? Yes, there are always places to cut the fat, but it is the ones trimming it that don't look at themselves.

I don't think most people buy their vehicles to be "cool' They buy what fits their needs and is affordable. Why would I want to spend more for a vehicle that can tow when I never tow? Why would I want the added gas mileage? I bought a vehicle that fits my needs. It wasn't a GM so I automatically was labeled a hater. GM didn't offer what I wanted at the price I paid. My vehicle was made in America so the wages went to American workers I know some of the profit went overseas but I'm sure the American worker spent money locally in their communities. So I support the American worker. I am just unwilling to pay more than I can afford to keep someone who makes twice as I make working. And I also own a Ford so I'm not anti american.

916WI - the problem is that they are sending most of the profits back to the homeland. Very little is kept in our economy. Plus, with all those moronic Governors giving away free land, dismissing taxes, ect. who do you think is paying for all that!! The Taxpayer! But it's ok, it's all under the table. Not in the news like for GM.

Rummage - I like your way of thinking :)

Rummagesale not even close to the same thing. When you buy american it stays in america when you buy foreign the money (profits) go to Japan, China or anyother foreign country. Our troops can not be compared to that. Not even close.

True Chad - very true. But you and I both know that is not the only reason that American cars are so expensive... right?

ttyl - I wasn't admonishing you, just had a bad way of trying to make a point. Everyone has reasons to choose what they do. If your requirement is MPG then you make your choices around that. But as you don't tow things, others do and their requirements are different. I still believe if we had fair trade, instead of free trade, we would lead the world in quality. But having to compete against unfair quotas and tariffs from other countries (why do you think our trade deficit is so large) handcuff the American worker.

Hey, I just thought of something. For all of us out there that beat up on foreign cars/parts (as I said before I wouldn't probably buy one 'just because'), we are just fine and dandy ok with our AMERICAN troops being combined with American and Foreign parts aren't we? Meaning, our troops are made up of all different races right?? Just something to think about... ;o)

Here is what I've owned. Most were GM. Overall good results.
80 Camero 8cyc base model was 7 out of 10
86 Camero 6cyc base model was 4 out of 10 Full of problems from the beginning. Stalling out, Computer board replacements, never ever ran well.
89 Berreta 4cyc base model was 7 out of 10
92 Buick Regal Custom was 9 out of 10
94/95? Dodge Ram SLT was 10 out of 10
2000 GMC Jimmy 4x4 was 8 out of 10
2002 Avalanche Z71 4x4 is 10 out of 10

Please stop referring to Japanese cars as "Jap crap" They are far from it.....My Honda and Toyota autos have been absolutely bulletproof for the last 10 years since I made the switch from those of the big 3. If I could say the same of the American car makers I wouldn't be driving foreign cars now.....People also need to understand that Toyota, Honda and BMW have invested heavily in production facilities in the United States--so when we buy cars made by these manufacturers we are absolutely supporting American families--a win/win--the consumer gets a reliable Honda/Toyota or BMW and we're supporting America at the same time.....What's wrong with that?

RummageSalesRock - I agree with you. I know quite a few people that have retired from GM or just were recently laid off. They are all very honest and good people. I feel bad for them because they are very worried about the future. It is unfortunate that only a few can ruin a good reputation.

And please, before someone says I don't know what I am talking about, I do. I have whitnessed this with many family members. And all are retired now....yes my philosophy fits my own experience, but back in the "day" that was the way it was. I wouldn't accuse someone of doing something if I didn't know it was true. But, just as with automobiles, peoples characters are never perfect and are never absolutes. So, just because there a few bad cars/employees doesn't make it bad as a whole! Our minds are just programmed to remember the bad stuff...

Chad - how am I pushing it on everyone? I stated the reasons that I choose to buy what I buy and now the ex-GM gang is all up in my face. I hardly think driving a Honda makes me "cool". Smart? Maybe -but not cool. If I wanted to look cool I would buy a Benz or a BMW. It just burns you that there are logical reasons that people would NOT want to buy American cars and you can't stand it. I know that imports have problems - no vehicle is perfect.

TTYL.....typical angry arrogant ex-gm employee you are oh so right on! Those types aren't allowed in my life...don't have room for the over inflated "thought" to be entitlement! Urgh~ And those are the types that give a company as a whole a bad name....break every law in the book because they know they have the union behind them, those are the type that are responsible for the situation the automakers are in right now. Their entitlement egos over spent the company benefits and now the ones who were honest hard workers are paying the price. Most of the ones who gave the company a bad names are sitting back on a pension laughing all the way to the bank knowing they barely worked a day in their lives .... now, remember I SAY MOST! I love what GM stands for, it is just sad that the few bad seeds created the over all Carma of the company.

ttyl - difference of opinion are fine, but there are others who profess that Imports are all perfect and none never break down. GM needs some vehicle types to compete, but as I said before , if GM had built the Peeus then everyone would have said it was as ugly as the Azteck. My sister bought a Peeus Hybrid, that thing is small and cheap, but she is so proud of the gas mileage. Great, but it won't fit my needs. Do we all give up larger vehicles/trailers/boats/ect. just to appear to be "cool"? What happens to all those industries if there is nothing to pull them with? We all make choices, try to do good where we can. But if someones criteria is MPG, then fine! Let it be theirs and don't push it on everyone.

tty I hope that your job is never out sourced to another country than we will see where you really stand. See if your attitude changes about non american products.

Basically, American quality sucks.

Not exactly true. American quality suffers when the Union pays their employees an ungodly rate and the higher ups are stealing from the company with their over inflated wages. Then there isn't money left for quality.

I know of a few American quality products that don't suck

You are right - I should have made my post clearer - not all American products suck.

I have a leather interior - it is very nice - heated seats too :)

Find me an American built car that lasts 200K+ with only basic maintenance for under $11,000 and gets 37+ MPG."
Yeah, I bet you could tow a 2x2 trailer with that beast. And you probably got the best Pleather interior to go with it.

Chad not everyone wants to tow things with their vehicle. And how can you verify these interiors are "pleather" if you won't even let one get near you.

So basically if you do not agree that American made cars are the best then you cannot post on this blog. Right? I am not going to spend $20,000 on a car when I can get a better and longer lasting car for 2/3 that cost and it will get better gas mileage. P.S. - I don't need to tow anything.

Still waiting on that car....

Chad - I have read your posts - while I think you have many valid points and you seem like an intelligent person - I just have different opinions that you do. I prefer foreign cars to American cars - I never said I wouldn't buy other American made products - I buy them all the time - but when it comes to vehicles - I choose Honda/Toyota.

Woodsman - you on the other hand are the typical angry and arrogant ex-GM employee. Get over yourself.

amen, tom1class2! This will end up spanking those yuppies in the but some day.

'Find me an American built car that lasts 200K+ with only basic maintenance for under $11,000 and gets 37+ MPG."

Yeah, I bet you could tow a 2x2 trailer with that beast. And you probably got the best Pleather interior to go with it.

I would rather pay 20,000 for an american made vehicle with 25+ miles knowing that I am helping support an american family to put groceries on their table, cloth their kids instead of to a Japanese or Chinese company who don't care.

TTYL....oh you are so right, American quality sucks, American Humanity Quality that is. No wonder we are falling apart! I hate mean people! My front porch says.........get this now........BE NICE OR GO AWAY~

Basically, American quality sucks.

Not exactly true. American quality suffers when the Union pays their employees an ungodly rate and the higher ups are stealing from the company with their over inflated wages. Then there isn't money left for quality.

I know of a few American quality products that don't suck

ttyl1023 - you need to open your eyes a little wider. Free trade (ha!) and other countries like Japan and China putting unreasonable trade tariffs on our exports to them make for unfair trade. and the fact they can ignore environmental restrictions we have here and pay for basically slave labor makes for an apples to oranges comparison. Of course, maybe we should lower our standard of living instead of raising theirs, just like NAFTA and other trade related jokes want to do.
Companies here are trying to compete under unreasonable circumstances, so they get cheaper and cheaper parts. If we had Fair trade, the quality concerns would not be such a difference. Americans are still the best.

Find me an American built car that lasts 200K+ with only basic maintenance for under $11,000 and gets 37+ MPG.

Oh - it has to be a 05' or newer

Sorry don't take pills don't need them. Don't have a problem only with foreign cars!

Time for your pill...

upnorth: You are an ungrateful bratt of a KID! You desert your father & the bread & butter that you lived on,to drive jap. crap. I hope your father makes you park it in the street & down the street from his UAW home,i know i would & have. Not on my watch,in my drive!

Ok lets support Japan and China to hell with America. GOOD!

I have owned 2 malibus and 1 venture van no problems with any of them. The venture van has almost 100,00 miles on it no problems at all only routine maintence.

Basically, American quality sucks.

Quality, on some things.

People wonder why we have such high unemployment in this country they are buy from Japan and China. What ever happened to buying american.

Time to start living within your means people. Save for a rainy day - or months or years.

propertymanager...Mitsubishi was a company that used US POW's as slave labor in WWII. I'm surprised as a former Marine you would buy such a thing.

upnorthwi- I agree with you regarding Toyota. A used camry was my first car and it was awesome - never broke down - hardly cost me any $ at all. I own a Honda now and luckily I have not had any problems with it either.

property - I've had hardly any problems with my GM vehicles the last 8 years. Everyone has an experience, and that will form the consumers tastes. But you were implying the workers built trash, or didn't care. Not true. There are many happy GM owners, as well as ones who had an import be a bust. so checkmate.

hannah - probably someone with more time in got more pension. Also, if like GM's it depends under what contract you retire. I guess I was trying to say, like the Milton Courier feeds to it's readers, so do all papers. That is why The Chyrsler pensioners maybe get less press.
Collective bargaining is a good and useful tool to add representation to those who otherwise would have none or very little, but it can be misused too. But like a person I know who had a supervisory job, always went to work, great person, but when the new boss came to town they were let go. Why? Officially - a reduction.Unofficially - he didn't want a woman in that job. She had no choice, advised by a lawyer, to take the severance and not sue as this would have been too hard to prove. This crap still goes on.
And how many people hit the lottery and still end up financially broke? Our schools need to teach budgeting.

I LOVE my Camry!! My dad retired from GM, all of my cars were GM made(8), 3 years ago I bought a 2003 Camry with 100,000 miles on it. I figured if I got 3 years out of it I'd be doing good. The only thing I've had to replace are the tires, brakes and battery and I've put 79,000 more miles on it. ALL of my GM cars had something wrong almost immediately after purchasing BRAND NEW. The joke at the dealership was wondering if they were made on a Friday. I'm thankful my dad had a good job while I was growing up, but I'm a Toyota girl from now on.

Chad, I bought Mitsubishi and it lasted with no problems for years on end. I bought a GM product and within three years, things started going wrong and falling apart inside and out. Guess which vehicle cost me more to purchase.

PropertyManager - Poor workmanship my A$$. You obviously have a "thing" for line workers. We had won many JD Power awards and other quality awards. I worked in the quality department. Any problems we had were mainly parts out of spec, not bad workmanship. You owe an apology to all the hard working people, some who even went out of their way to make the best quality vehicles for the customer. And not everyone could fit a family life, 10 hour work days, some sleep time, and find time for education.

Thanks, melstew47. Most people are good people. I think some who hate GM people or only know ones that are stuck up probably gave them the ol' "Oh, your a GM jerk" attitude when they met them. What you throw at the wall will bounce right back at ya. 95% of the people I came into contact with were good people, hard working and charitable. Most are trying to move on, but it's like playing a game without knowing all the rules.

“annual revenues for Mercy Health System have increased from $33 million in 1989 to $375 million now” That represents almost a 12 percent increase in revenue per year for 20 years. If wages were to keep pace with that increase then someone making $33 00 dollars an hour in 1989 would be making $375.00 an hour today. I wonder how much of that revenue came from employees and retirees of GM and GM’s suppliers and contractors. There are a couple of economic realities that are about to hit healthcare in the face. Number one: the Government will no longer tolerate outrageous increases in costs that are bleeding Medicare and will ultimately bankrupt Medicare. Two: employers can increasingly no longer afford health insurance and are dropping it. A large factor contributing to GM’s disastrous failure is the billions of dollars GM owes to the UAW retiree healthcare fund. GM will most likely get rid of this unaffordable obligation by filing bankruptcy. What kind of increases will Janesville’s healthcare providers be able to sustain without the GM Golden Goose and without continued blank checks from Uncle Sam. How long will it be before the healthcare providers line up in Washington for their bailout? If the healthcare industry thinks it’s business as usual then they are about to be in for a big surprise starting with not-for-profit healthcare administrators who are typically making six and seven figure salaries. When people have to pay for healthcare out of their own pockets you can believe every charge will be meticulously scrutinized. And how will healthcare providers collect when their clients have lost their job, their car, their house and their credit cards. The answer my friends is blowin’ in the wind. Hear it howl. Instead of bickering with each other we should all join hands and support the Obama administration in coming up with affordable, accessible healthcare for every American. We can start reforming healthcare by checking out the following link: http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/h...

propertymanager...Oh just stop with the 5 years in the marines, will ya. Some hard labor might do you some good now to get you back into shape. I've never worked on the GM line but I sure wouldn't call them losers! Maybe you were the only one! Now just go put on some of your nice cloths and go look important.

PICK<PICK<PICK!! Does a job go with the offer of the apartment?? Just kidding,you "DON'T" have enough money for me to live in rat hole MADISON,BELOIT of steroids all Madison is!

yes I do Sarah...and you people pay for them. If people didnt pay the price, then all of Madison would start dropping rents. I go with the Market flow. Just like us consumers paying for overpriced, poor workmanship GM vehicles. We will and thats what sets the price. Come on up to Madison and I will rent you a nice studio for $800.00 per month, furnished with you paying the utilities in a modern highrise by state street.

PropertyManager: You don't know GM and you definitely don't know Beloit. By the way, do you manage any of the overpriced dumps that UW students fork out tons of money to live in?

Sorry about the loser on the line comment. Was not something I should have said and I do apoligize. Woody seems to have pushed a button.

Propertymanager just because you were a loser on the line doesn't make everyone a loser you may be the exception. I know for a fact that not everyone worked on robotics there is also physical labor.

And also Woody, I was a loser on the line, until I went and worked on an education, which yes, makes me very Important in my job now.

Rummagesalerocks, good post i agree,loved your post,at least you dont sound hateful,mean angry people suck.

Hey Woody, Maybe you missed the Marine part of my conversation. Five years active duty Combat Veteran. I think I know physical labor, and you people did not do physical labor due to robotics. You want to know physical work? Join the Marines, your line work does not even compare to physical attributes.

It sounds like propertymanager couldn't be just a fellow worker on a assembly line because he's too IMPORTANT!

here we go again, let the arguing begin(lol)let me explain this to you in simple terms so some of you understand it,first of all i have no connection with gm at all im a cashier.the people that worked at gm including the retirees are entitled to these benefits,especially the retirees,they worked hard their whole lives,and now have to worry about not having insurance.thats a bunch of crap.the people who recently lost their jobs at gm will have to move on like my husband did,he lost his job at lsi.what they need to be worrying about is the retirees,they need their insurance and their pensions,theyve earned it the hard way.for those of you who have nothing to say but mean things about gm affiliated people,i ask you,do you not have nothing better to do?and do you enjoy watching all this sufferage?now please tell me why you enjoy it and why they dont deserve anything? it was one of the worse days in our house when gm shut its doors,and lsi,lear, and every other business that was affected by closing.and we lost all of our insurance.

Propertymanager not all GM employees spend, spend, spend and put nothing away. Just because some do doesn't mean everyone did. No matter where you work there are people who spend, spend, spend and there are people who save. It isn't just GMers.

propertymanager...so you couldn't handle the phyical work so you became a what? A manager? And YOU think your so important running around town "dressed up"? It sounds like YOU think YOUR more important than others.

Unfortunately, I don't think alot of people paid attention when Delta Airlines went bankrupt. Delta then went to court and asked them to okay using the pensions money to pay off their debts. Those employees lost everything! That was an eye opening time for me. I work at a job that has a pension plan, however I would never count on that money actually being there when I retire. I will have to make sure that I have enough money saved up to take care of me, god knows social security probably won't be there either. I know saving isn't easy right now, looking at my 401K statements make me cry, but I have to hope that things will get better. Good luck everyone!

I live to the West of Janesville in a small town. I used to live in Janesville and did not care much for it. The general attitude when I was there was not very welcome.GM workers seemed to think they were a little higher up the food chain than others. A majority of the people I met were just High School graduates ( If that) and worked at GM just like parents and grandparents before them. It is a well known fact that GM employees regardless of the money amount they were being paid, were well paid compared to other factory employees with tons more benefits. That is why the price of GM vehicles were astronomical with poor workmanship. With the money made you would think that a person would want to maybe continue education while being stuck on the line of a factory. But the line pay was more than most jobs and comfortable, so nobody advanced the education. Just spend spend spend and put nothing away. I have friends who are wondering where they will go now. I worked in the factory for a short amount of time. It was a sign to me after the Marines that my life would go nowhere being stuck in that plant. The money was good yes, but, routine work day in and day out made me go get a better education and to Madison for a job of equal or better pay and spending my time dressed up and running around the city on nice days, sitting in my office on rainy days. Education is the key to you GM Workers. Good luck to you. Your town is dying just like Beloit.

ChadVader......We look at this from 2 different perspectives. I don't think the taxpayers should be forced to indefinitely prop up a failed business structure. Whether GM fails or is able to pull through this recession, it should be all on them. If it does fail, it will either fall apart or be forced to reinvent itself and the way it does business. This is where innovation has it's roots. If massive amounts of taxpayer money is thrown at the problem, what really is the incentive to change? What did our $15 billion dollar "investment" result in? I never have bought the "it's too big to let fail" line...Those situations always turn into black holes for resources that could have been used much more effectively elsewhere.......

LYNDA, well said! :)

Skiddz: My husband worked at GM for 30 years and he is now working on his 2nd million as his first million never came in. Where do you get your mis-information.

916wi - I see your view, but I don't see it as that simplistic. Since the auto industry is like a spider web across this country, the question is more of the damage that would be done should it fail. I guess I would agree that taxpayers making up for the morons who ran this company off the road is sad, but letting this large manufacturing base fail may do more harm to the US. There are many more disasters the taxpayer has picked up the tab for ( take a trip back to the Love Canal fiasco), where the greater good outweigh the cost. And unlike all those, this money is slated to be paid back (unlike AIG).

Oh, and that was fuzzy math ($30 and hour for 30 years), and getting into management meant having a control chip to be inserted. No thanks.

And let's remember, no matter how bad our day was, there is ALWAYS someone who had a worse one.

Honestly, I think at this point in time, our chances of getting struck by lightening are greater than knowing the fate of the auto industry. :o( So, what I suggest, is, go outside, sniff some flowers, enjoy the sunshine, hug your loved ones, tell them you love them, and enjoy life as it is, because all of this worrying about what will be, is only robbing all of us of what IS. Tomorrow is never certain, no matter what we are talking about...

That's right Rascal! It took them only 20 of my years there to finally put on labels so I could see what toxic crap they wanted me to work with. Between that and the damage done to the body, it sure does seem like there are not many who make it long after retirement.

ChadVader--I don't know what you're referring to with regards to "fuzzy match"? I never have had an issue with the hourly pay of the workers and definitely didn't bring it up in this discussion. I agree that any corporation has a moral commitment to it's employees. That is between the corporation and the employee NOT the American taxpayer and those employees. If you are upset with the way the company is being run either educate yourself to a point where you can enter management in an effort to make the changes you want made, or leave the company and walk away from it's products. Just because GM management in tandem with the UAW ran that corporation into the ground, doesn't mean the American taxpayer should cover the expense of picking up the pieces......agree?

I grew up a GM brat and we never lived in a lavish house - just a normal middle class family house nothing fancy. We never had toys like boats, motorcycles or or all the other toys some many people think GM workers have. We had alot of lean times growing up due the strikes. We did not get everything we wanted when we wanted it. Alot of families lived the same way we did. I have family that works at GM now and they don't live like alot of people think, no lavish houses no extra toys they pay their taxes just like everyone else. I am tired of people thinking they know everything about GM. They are not rich people they are just normal people trying to make the best living they can for their families.

Why do people always point out the extremes in situations? The news searches around till they find the one nut job that will give them a good quote, like the pipe fitter. And it is true, many people did plan and save for retirement to only see those plans blow up. Too sad. (And what is scary, if I go to a nursing home they will take all my equity and savings to pay for it while those with little or no equity get the SAME treatment for free. Why am I saving again??).
The money given to all the bigshots who are jumping ship would more than pay for a lot of our retirement/benefits. Yet, some of you just want to gripe about people who just desired to make a good living instead of complaining about how everyone else should be as poor/underpaid/overworked as you and third world countries that the WTO wants to turn us into.

People should understand that at age 62 the "supplement" or pension is cut 80% as social security kicks in. If you pay attention to Chrysler, the UAW signed off on the bankruptcy and the pensions are intact(with the exception of dental and vision) for now. The companies and the government know the death rate for retirees ensures funds should be available in the future. For UAW haters,you can be happy that the chemicals, absestos, oils. and solvents in the factories, make the life expectency for auto workers much lower than average. A reason to really worry is the solvency of social security in a few years. UAW retirees have nothing to be concerned about for now. The "news" releases are timed to generate fear, with this guy Lute as the most usefull idiot of the press corp. that covers Detroit. All articles by that reporter are filled with speculation, bias, and little facts

Skiddz: I used the 30 year figure because that is what GM uses: "30 and out." If someone "retired" from the plant with 20 years, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to draw their full pension amount anyhow...so all of your points are moot in addition to being unfounded and stupid!! You haven't a clue what you are talking about and it shows via your pettiness.
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Furthermore, if someone "for a fact" told you they were making $18-$22 an hour to drive trucks off the line, they were feeding you a VERY big line of bull! I *think* it is more in the $14 range--and that was as of last summer.

To whoever gave out their pay for the 70's: thank you and I stand corrected. However, it was a heckuva lot closer to the $2/hr than skiddz believed $30/hr mark.

skiddz...You talk about how much GM workers make and spend but you fail to talk about how much they paid. A third of their check went to income tax. If they bought as much as YOU say, they paid lots of sales tax and the big houses YOU say they have, they pay a huge amount in realestate tax. Also, as much as YOU say they bought, they must have kept many people employed and many things were paid for with their tax payments. So skiddz, did YOU benefit from the GM workers?

momof5- I had some times of double time. But I also had many years of low income because of layoffs. 916wi just likes to use fuzzy match with exaggerated numbers to prove a non existent point. I wish I made 430 an hour for 30 years!

916wi - my analogy was that the more I made, the more taxes I paid, the more I could help charities, and the belief that business owners have a moral duty to their workers. To run the business wisely and to stand by their contracts with workers and not just the contract that says they get millions of dollars when they retire after running the ship into the reef. By the way, I was not even CLOSE to $30 an hour 30 years ago. Get your facts straight.

Excellent points, localboy1968. I think it's also important to point out that a lot of these retirees who thought they were covered, and are finding out that they now are not, aren't in any physical condition to go back to work. It's one thing if you are young enough to go out and get another job, but if you have health issues, (which we know many Americans do) it is quite another.
+
Good luck to all. And to those who aren't directly affected by this I urge you to count your blessings and make an effort to be kind.

"Doom and Gloom" Jim Leute, well done. Your articles get worse every week.

Noggi...Thanks for the link to the WSJ article. The interview with the pipefitter from the Chrysler plant was classic. He made $129,000 in 2008 and was wondering how he was gong to survive on "only" half of that this year.......Yeah, $65,000 would be so hard to scrape by on:) He better go apply for food/housing assistance! What reality are people like that living in?

you are welcome. changes are happening - lots is going on - some good some bad - but when we know the facts to the best of our ability - it helps. the fear of the unknown is the worst.

our union local is doing a pretty good job of keeping us informed -

have a good one.

gypsytoo, thanks for the information.

regarding jobs going overseas and mexico - there in lies the beginning of the problem

when everything is made elsewhere - what jobs are americans going to have and what money are they going to have to buy those products? or to pay into social security or to pay income tax?

I buy as much american as i can (heck i even bought a GMC Suburban build in Janesville - dealer would not tell us where it would be built - wrote him a letter saying it would be built by the UAW or we would not take it - when it finally came in 8 months later it was built in Janesville - the dealer knew all along but would not tell us - never went back to that dealer again) but it is getting harder and harder. no job means no money - and no money means no purchases - and what does that do to the economy? bring jobs back to the US - one would have thought that GM would have figured out that the more jobs gone means fewer customers - GM employees are their biggest customer - at least they used to be. Number one selling vehicle in Flint Michigan thru the 90s was the Buick LeSabre - at least until they closed the plant. Not anymore - gone - gone with the wind.

regarding the pension changes - my understanding is that the 1800 whose had the pension problems on May 1 are under the SERP program - do a google on SERP Chrysler and it should explain all. Chrysler had way more retirees than that.

they were salaried people who had put into their own retirement as they did not have enough years - at least that is my understanding. not the rule of thumb pension -

momof5: I was not trying to add any salt to open wounds. I really feel for the workers as they did their part and built the vehicles. I hold the management to blame. I encourage all GM'ers to gather the troops and make a march on headquarters in Detroit. Make some noise, be heard, get on TV and make a stand for what is right. With regards to my statement about a neighbor paying the bills. Yes its was simple and for effect but truly accurate in that you too will be subsidizing your own pension if the Government is paying any portion.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12428663...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12428663...

I was voicing my opinion and things I've witnessed and heard over the years about GM employees and was told by a retiree and his wife to go to GM and apply for a job. I said.."Oh, aren't you funny!" Am I supposed to feel sorry for GM employees while they collect unemployment and subpay? I think not. Now, the Lear employees and other auto industry employees that lost their jobs and don't have the 'perks' of GM employees I feel for. Simply because I know they are struggling. COBRA payments are unbelievable. When you are getting less than $400 a week unemployment and you are paying $900/mo COBRA payments, rent/mortgage, insurance, food, clothing, gas for vehicle, etc. $400 a week GROSS is not enough. Then end up getting nailed for taxes.

We are greedy. We always want more. We never have enough money, toys, etc. How much will it take for you to be happy? More money, bigger homes, designer clothes, bigger vehicles, boats, and more toys...

And then we wonder why our jobs are disappearing overseas or to Mexico or Canada.

Risk is risk - corner store or GM - no guarantees for a sure thing. GM contract subject to risk as any contract. Called Life.

Summer of 1977, I earned a whopping $2/hour at Libby's here in Janesville. Momof5, I would hope and expect that GM workers were earning more than that. In fact, I think minimum wage was $1.90/hour at the time and my extra 10 cents per hour came from working 12-hour shifts at night.

The simple deal is, if you worked until you retired, you worked as long as you needed to in order to survive on retirement based on what was promised. If they take that away AFTER you retire, how can you change it? If you knew about it before, you could have worked longer, saved even more (instead of pumping it in to the economy like a good American)and modified your living. I think it is wrong to take away what you worked for and earned. That is right, a pension is a benefit you earned. It isn't a gift. For most of you, if you were told you would get $300 at the end of the week for working 40 hours, and payday your company told you, that they only wanted to pay you $150, you would be hot! This is the same thing.

Kiowam why do you think their has been a boost in Cash for Gold infomercals. Everyone is trying to get the only thing that has any value when the dollar collapses.

He Momof5 stop drinking your Kool aid so your eyes can read what I said. Scroll down to my original post. What did I say? 20 years buddy, and from the end of 2008 that would put you at the end of 1988, no were close to your 1979. Where did you learn your math GM? Cause it looks like you couldn't even get the wage number right for the year you were wrong about.. Oh and I also calculated that with NO over time in, and as other said the plant came open to 10 hour shifts, and time and half fridays. so are you serious? Do you know how much MORE money those worker made then the $1,200,000.00 I figured before. Cause seriously its not like they make you wait till you have 15 years to get to $30bucks a hour, what was the average starting rate at the Janesville GM plant 3 years ago? I bet it wasn't the $2 your trying to make it out to be. Maybe 10 times that amount? I know people that would come back from college in the summer get a job driving cars onto the trains at the plant and they got like 18-22 bucks to start off.. SERIOUS? that much to drive a car onto a train car... YOU GUYS are the joke. Oh and MOMO it doesn't matter if your company was miss managed. The average one of you workers have still made over a million dollars in your lifetime at GM I bet or atleast cost the company over a million, so NO I will never feel sorry for you or your family, you did this to them by not saving. Instead all you GM folk had to get everything new and made in china. Now that you help all the other companys build their plants over seas by suppling them with a income by going to best buy and farm and fleet and buying that made in china product with your outragous income, you get mad that they want to move your factory over their so your company can make a buck, cause you charge so much to drive a freaking car onto a train.

If I'm getting any pension or severance package, I'd be milking that sucker for all it's worth now. Grab the $$$$, and convert it to something other then US dollars! When the giant pyramid scheme collapses you can laugh at all the fools sitting on these "huge" pensions backed by worthless paper!

I hope they are still getting their pensions from Chrysler because if they have gone to PBGC the supplements will be dropped, and all they will receive is whatever amount was in place for each year of service when they retired.

You are actually supposed to get advance notification if the pension is going to the PBGC, but with an expedited bankruptcy like Chrysler is going through all bets might be off. This type of deal hasn`t happened before.

Your second post does say no change in pension plan, but that contradicts what happened to the 1800 people in the first one.

The article doesn`t say they were salaried people, and it does say they will only receive the part of the pension covered by PBGC.

nother one -

http://www.uaw.org/chrysler/chry01.cfm

can't find anything that says Chrysler terminated their plan and PBCG took over -

some salary personel who had a special pension program that they paid into - had a lower check may 1 - but were supposed to get it paid infull may 15.
http://www.freep.com/article/20090502/BU...

The PBGC took over Chrysler pensions May 1`st. Some didn`t get their checks till the second week of May.

woodsman - i think you are close - in 99 when i retired from the line - was not making any $20 an hour - these people should do a wee bit more research. as far as i know line workers are making $28 an hour in the 2007 contract - and new hires are a whole different story.

as far as i know Chrysler pensions are still good and they have not dropped the plan onto the PBGC. yet

facts should be checked before sounding off -

The Chrysler folks are getting a sweet deal for being let go. Not many workers get that. GM employees also got a sweet deal. And then you have this CEO of Associated Bank who gets forced out and she gets $1.5M as a severance. Not bad either. Sorry UAW members. The gravy train is done and you have been lucky to get what you have already gotten. Good luck and deal with it like everyone else. You are not better than any other worker.

I wonder if this means GM is not coming back to Janesville?

Yes that's about right, woodsman. I'm looking at a check stub of my Dad's from 1968 from there, 40 hours, gross pay $135.20- that would be $3.38 per hour in 1968- not a new hire, he had 41 years in at that time.

3.50-4.25 hr. back in 71-72,not 2 dollars in 79!

momo5, off the top of my head I`d say the wage was in the mid to high teens in 1979. In the 90`s and 2000`s when the plant went to 10 hour days, every Friday was time and a half. But in the long run it makes no difference, the PBGC will pay the pensions when GM goes bankrupt, at least part of them. Then skiddz will have his tax money going to pay those pensions, as will the GM workers who made whatever they made.

ChadVader.....Your analogy makes absolutely no sense--The more accurate comparison would have been if I lost my job or my company went bankrupt would I expect the government to come in and cover my mortgage because I am the debtor to the bank and can no longer make the payment. Obviously, the answer is no. The government shouldn't come in and cover GM's debt to it's employees either. It's not that anyone wished this on the GM employees--what it comes down to is that GM promised it's retirees the pensions and health care NOT the American taxpayer. Unless the government is going to step up and treat all people equally and give every retired taxpayer free money and health care then surely you must agree that one group shouldn't be the only one to receive the benefit. I understand the pensions were backed by the government to a certain percentage--the government should pay out the smallest possible percentage--these are hard times--Everyone is being forced to make compromises--but the last time I checked other fields that were hurting(construction companies, manufacturing firms, etc.), they did not get a $15 billion dollar handout to subsidize their lifestyles.

P.S. I don't have any children either, but I've never had an issue with a percentage of my taxes funding the school system. You did attend school, didn't you? Think of it from the perspective of a late payment on your own education:)

Skiddz: you are a bigger bafoon than I originally gave you credit for! 30 years ago, honey, wouldve been 1979. I bet even a DOCTOR wasn't making $30 an hour. You have just made yourself look like an uninformed arse, because back in 1979 a "plant rat" was making $2 or less an hour. Hey--Chad--can you dig up an old paycheck stub so we can make "skiddz" finally sthu!

While you're at it, how about you Google this name "Richard Wagoner." If you want to talk about execs taking 90 million after they retire...he made 14.4 MILLION in ONE year...the government had enough of his lipservice and forced him out...BUT...and this is where you can impress me with your internet skills, skiddz, tell me what kind of severance/retirement package he got??

How is this the worker's fault? Are there still 1982 Chevette's sitting in the showroom of Fagan? Did GM not sell every last Pontiac Aztek their employees assembled? Maybe I can get a good deal on one of those left-over 1992 Lumina's like I've always wanted. Get a grip! The company was mismanaged--not misworked.

So, skiddz, how about YOU get off your uninformed ignorant high horse and join the rest of us here at this place called REALITY??!

And double time? Maybe here and there over the course of 30 years. Triple time? Hahahahaha...for a VERY select few on a VERY limited basis. Stop drinking the kool-aid...your remaining few brain cells will thank you!

Chad: how many times did you get double time? Triple time??

Hey Wahoo I would like you to hold your breeth till GM comes back to this town. :)

Oh and for those of you that say I didnt make 1.2 million well even if you didn't I bet you are not far away from a million dollars. YET all of you still need more money why??? Oh wait cause you spent it all at those Box stores buying chinese made electronics at bestbuy and imported furniture at Siker, or made in china American farm products at Farm and fleet.

I heard on MSNBC this morning that under Obama's fuel mileage plan, GM will need to add more production space. Maybe Janesville is not done yet!

Once again a failure in federal regulations and oversight. Pensions were supposed to be guaranteed by an independent fund, but the oversight agency regularly allowed them to put less money than needed. It's so much easier to blame the unions, the workers, etc. than to blame the execs and the federal regulators.

Truth: a-flipping-men!!!

Chad: cyber high 5!

This very paper reported a few month back that the Average worker at GM gets around $30bucks a hour. So if you get $30bucks, you have worked for lets say 20 years at GM. Thats $1,240,000.00 that you made not including Overtime which we know is just outragously higher pay, what double and sometimes triple time? So please since you have made over a million dollars in your life get off you high horse GM workers, sell your damn crap and live a life that is equal to your skill level. Or maybe just start getting used to Reaping what you sowed for yourselfs. You all want to blame the execs, but I don't see the execs taking 90billion dollars from a company after they retire after they have already made over a million when they worked. Me I am just trying to get to my first million mark. I wish all of you unemployed Gm workers luck on making it to your 2million dollar mark from our tax dollars.

So...let's say you have 375,000 in various financial products in the bank; a bank that received bailout money. The bank goes through some major hardships and closes. Should YOU not be entitled to your "insurance" payment, via the FDIC, of 325k just because "your" bank was abiled out?? After all, the demise really wasn't your fault personally so why should you get the shaft??

As for the "made a decent buck" comment. When? Back in the early 80's when GM employees made just over minimum wage? Back in the 50's when those retirees made $1 or less?? Sure, if you were "lucky" enough to retire in the last few years (mid 90's to now) you "made a decent buck." But, 10 or 15 years of your 30+ career at a "decent buck" doesn't necessarily make up for the other 20+ years making minimum wage or barely better. And, yes, I'd be saying this of ANY company.

I think I got jipped. Where's all this preferrential treatment GM'ers get/got? I still got speeding tickets, have to pay taxes, and dang it...I still have to pay full price for a Happy Meal. It isn't like the city or state sent out a special card that "we" could flash and get hidden perks and benefits.

Jealousy. Petty uninformed jealousy.

If any of us look back, we have been living in a modified socialist society since Roosevelt. Welfare, medicare and medicaid are the main ways in which the government has and will try to take care of it's citizens.
What happens when retirees lose medical insurance? Medicare, the VA or bankruptcies take the brunt of the medical costs. Taxes and higher costs are the vehicles that pay for all of this.
What happens when a worker loses their job and are not qualified for another to meet their lifestyle? The taxpayers are tapped for re-education and unemployment. Some people may never be unemployed, yet pay into the unemployment fund their entire life.
When people complain about how they are paying in for these programs, just think of your mothers, fathers, and grandparents. Should we stop trying to take care of the people who helped build the world we live in today, or should they get sent to the death arena because the life jewel on their hands are red? (reference Logan's Run)
We will never see the FICA taxes we are paying into the fund every week, but I would rather not see a family member or co-worker die because they have been ostracized by the younger generations?

rascal, Chrysler pensions were cut the first of the month when PBGC took over, the same thing that will happen to GM.

916WI - gee, maybe if I(the taxpayer) didn't have to pay for someone else's kids to go to school I would have more money. Maybe the bank should foreclose on your house, just 'cause they can, to heck with contracts. Maybe if I got a $15,000,000,000 from the taxpayers I would not need a pension (unless the post office lost the check, I can't find it!) This is not just a little setback, but the destruction of peoples lives they had planned out, even with savings set aside. Why would anyone wish that on someone.

Creature: I usually agree with what you say. But, I have to disagree with you here. WHO is knocking on their neighbor's door to pay their bills? Maybe I read a different article than you, but I didn't read anywhere in this article where anyone is looking for the government to come swooping in and save them because they feel entitled. The pension insurance mentioned in the article isn't anything special that only GM is privy to.

NO ONE deserves to worry about their pensions being cut. I don't care if you worked at GM, Chrysler, Playboy, K-Mart or Enron...no one deserves this and certainly no one really and truly plans on this.

My dad worked at GM for a very long time. This pension uncertainty scares the bejesus out of me! Would I like to see "something" done? Hell yes! Would I like to see the government come swooping in with their red Superman capes on and save the day? Sure. But, I realize and am fully cognizant that it is not the government's place to necessarily do that. Do I feel my dad is entitled to his FULL PROMISED pension? Hell yes...again! You don't give nearly a quarter of a century of your life to a company for them to say "too bad so sad...we are cutting your pension benefits by 25%...but look at how purr-ty our new plant is in China." So, yes, my dad is entitled to his full pensuon but the one who needs to fulfill that promise is the same one who made it: General Motors. Cut the fat elsewhere and leave the men and women alone who made this company what evolved to be: before Wagoner sunk the USS General Motors.

As for saving for a rainy day. Ha! Pretty sure this is more like a monsoon than a rainy day!

These people are in an unfortunate situation, but the American taxpayers have already given $15,000,000,000 to the GM workers. We should not be expected to give them any more. They made a very good wage for many years, the employees should have more than enough saved to cover themselves through these hard times.....

This guy is a hack for the company, The UAW deal with GM will be like Chrysler, the pensions are protected.No way the government can absorb that many people.Trying to scare people just before the deadline is working, but not likley. 500,000 GM retirees losing pensions aint gonna happen.. yet, 5 years from now might be a different story if the economy does not recover.

What about all the other people around the country who have been laid off or lost their jobs??? OH NO GM PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE TO PAY FOR INSURANCE!!! What about the people getting a $360 MAX unemployment check with no kick in from a UNION? GET REAL AND WAKE UP TO REALITY!

creature, when GM goes bankrupt we all will be paying the pensions through the PBGC. The article states pensions for those 65 and older are $3000, a line worker would have had to have retired recently after working 60 years for that to be true.

Apologize for the misspelling. Should have said retirees.

Anything associated with GM is in peril.

I'm really sorry to hear about the bad news for the retires but to hope or expect the Government to step in and bail you all out is just plain wrong on multiple levels. Yes its sad you were all made promises that were not kept. The majority of U.S. workers have no pensions. I've worked for 25 years and had to save everything myself. I'm sure that is the norm. The only hope of retirement for most is to put money away from pay checks. For the Government to step in and take care of you all is Socialism. Life is hard and many times you'll get hit with the unexpected. This is one of those times. The lessen to be learned is save for a rainy day as it will come sometime. GM has only its management to blame for this problem. Pitch forks and torches I say. Storm the castle, and take what is coming to you from the ones who made the promise. Don't knock on your neighbors door and ask for him to pay your bills.

I can see GM once into bankruptcy getting rid of dental and vision coverage and also cutting health care and pension between 10 and 40% depending on age of retiree and whether salaried or hourly. However, heaven forbid they totally get rid of health care and the pension because the older people pushing 70 and into their 70's pushing 80 rely on that income to survive since they were the ones not making 40K and above since most started in the 50's when they made 1.00 per hour and worked there way up into the 1980's making 20.00 - 25.00 per hour before retiring. Now, that they are in their late 60's into their 70's, they cannot work any longer due to medical conditions and the hard work they put in at the GM plants all their lives. I pray the Obama administration and others making these decisions take this very crucial element into effect when deciding to NOT end health care and pensions entirely, just reducing the benefits or pension amount 10-40% lets say.

I agree,someone doesn't know shi-! I know for a fact that a person that retired in 1977 gets around 9k,maybe.

quick question on those pension amounts - retired from a Flint Michigan GM facility in 1999 when they shut the door. was 54 years old. am now 64 and holding - i sure as heck do not get any kind of money like they are mentioning in this article - and i had 35 years on the line when i retired - where oh where did they get these numbers?

Then you obviously didn't look for articles, because I have read some. Actually, it looks like the Chrysler retirees may be better of than we will (not that they got a much better deal, but ...). Let's see, Janesville had a GM plant, don't remember a Chrysler plant here??? Maybe that's why it was of local interest to a local newspaper. Why don't we worry about all people being affected, and quit whining about who gets a press release.