The full proposal is being presented at tonight's city council meeting. I look forward to seeing all of you down there to hear the proposal in it's unbiased form before the Gazette summarizes it and post's an article. If your really passionate about this topic...you should be there.

mespl - way to try and turn it around. Go back and read a bunch of my posts on this and everyone else that has posted over and over before you start making your comments.

http://gazettextra.com/news/2009/may/20/...

**********

This is where the city should direct its attention and funds in my opinion.

whosays - I agree with you 100% that we as citizens deserve to have the whole plan including benefits (both revenues and entertainment value) and costs laid out. The community as a whole should have the right to evaluate whether this project will be a benefit in light of all the facts and decide whether or not to pursue a venture of this magnitude. My feeling right now is that the city is keeping us in the dark with regard to the details of this proposal, unless the details simply aren't hashed out yet.

The city provides a place for youth football, soccor and baseball. Kids who play hockey or figure skate should have the same opportunity as all the other kids to do their sports in the community they live in, not go outside their community to do them.

Funny how the last three posts all use the tired old term "negative". It's always, if you don't agree with me then you're being "negative".
Actually, some of us are very positive about this city, and that's why we care enough to express ourselves regarding something like the ice arena. I positively think it should be privatized, 100%. A privately run ice arena would bring all sorts of positive benefits to the city, including paying property taxes to the city government (that's a *positive* cash flow to the city, rather than the negative cash flow caused by city government meddling in the private sector). All of the other benefits touted by those who support a city government ice arena instead of a freely run private arena, will still exist, but at zero cost to city taxpayers. That's win-win-win people, a rather *positive* outcome wouldn't you say?

I can't believe the negativity in this city. Sometimes, things that are needed aren't money makers. For instance, how much revenue does the bike trail bring into this city?? Yet we still have it. We travel to hockey tournaments all over the state, we spend money on all sorts of things when we go. It is never a "cheap" weekend for our family. That money stays in the communities we travel to. If Janesville were to build a new rink, it would bring families into this community. A new facility near the sports complex would make Janesville the premier city to play youth sports in. We truly would have it all!! What a great place to raise my children. I hope enough of us stay positive and level headed long enough for this to happen.

I'm crossing my fingers that all this gets resolved and that we are fortunate enough to come out of it with a new facility. Even if this does mean a tax increase. Most of the negative is coming from people who have no use for an ice center. Thus the "I don't want to pay taxes on it" mindset. My family does not use the pools or parks here, or the bike trails or senior center, nor would they even have use for a skatepark. We are still paying taxes for all that kind of stuff. We will continue to pay taxes for them, even if we never use them. If more taxes is what it takes to have a decent arena then so be it. My family will finally have tax dollars going towards something we'll enjoy using!

If the streets were a money maker, they would be kept up! Is this what you are saying?

I am very proud to live in Janesville for the past 66 years and know so many fine people, but the negative people are my one true sore spot. Wait until the whole program is presented and where it plays out. You only know negatives without even hearing or listening to the details. This plan is probably adjustable.

If we are to return to our financial respectability of the past, we must add amenities like this. By the way were you complaining when the good times were here?

That is what the people who make decisions on business and plant locations study. If the owners do not like a community, then there will be no jobs.

Of course, we can abviously role back the carpet and invite the horse and buggies back. Great source of fuel.

I can hardly wait for the negative responses to this post. Do not bother, I already know your backward, uniformed answers. I am unemployed and scratch to pay for the minimum necessities of life. I do look forward to new growth and oportunities in the Janesville area.

Spark ,I'm with you.

Blah Blah Blah, That ice arena is not a profitable business if it was then how did it get to this? If that ice arena was a money maker it would've been kept up, Now its just a big money pit waiting for our tax dollars to be dumped into it! Hey Hockey Moms, if you think it's that great of an idea then your whole group along with Hockey Dad aka: Our new City Manager should pool your money together, then what you fall short of in your goal become a small business together HOCKEY INC maybe, and get a loan FROM A BANK! Run the ice arena as a business and see how much you make (if its such a great idea have at it) I hope you all make millions and can retire I really do, but leave my tax dollars out of your wants because I actually would rather spend that on MY NEEDS!

Spark: apparantly you are listening because you are complaining about it. And you are waisting your breath the most by simply complaining about everyone that is writing anything. And yet again no constructive input, thank you, very informative.

mespl - In case you've been out of the country or somewhere else, this discussion has gone on and on and on. People didn't want their taxes being spent. Then people didn't want the upgrades to the current one. They wanted it privatized. They didn't want the beer sales. Now someone is thinking about privatizing part of it (which by the way is how many rinks are handled with both city and private help). Now people are complaining about that. Good God, it's exhausting and quite honestly, becoming comical as all hell. Because at the end of the day, people are simply wasting their breath and valuable time spent from their short lives. But hey, if that's what get's you excited, go for it. Hope you all like listening to yourselves, cause nobody else really is.

I'm still waiting to hear if someone has a good source of information regarding the various hockey rink proposals. Does anybody know where to get information on these? Quantitavie is preferred over qualitative. Thanks.

SPARK! Where ya been!?? Anything positive you can add to the big share of gloom & doom projected on this topic.

Wow, Spark you added a lot to this discussion!

PEOPLE - GET A LIFE AND GET OVER IT! GOD!

I can't believe this continues to be a discussion and that our elected city officials support/entertain this! This community as a whole is suffering significantly from many economic hardships. I can't help but think what $200k could do for families in need, how many meals it could provide, or how much it could stock the shelves of the widely used ECHO. Shame on the city council for approving renovations in this economic crisis. Have any of you driven past ECHO at 8 or 9 a.m. lately? I am ashamed and extremely disappointed any amount of my tax dollars would support such a frivolous leisure activity. If a rink is so desired in this community and has such potential to create revenue, then those that want this should support it privately. I'm sure there are potential donors in this community that would offer some financial support, but please don't look to my tax dollars for assistance. And although I consider myself very fortunate to be financially stable and able to donate in the current economic crisis, you can bet any money that I have to donate will NOT go to supporting an ice rink when there are homeless and hungry children in this community.

Ok I give in Build the rink I will be there. I just looked at the draft the team had yesterday and the players they have signed. I'm convinced this is going to be a big draw for fans of all the local talent they said there would be on the team and there right. One yes one local kid!!!! I'll be there now I was wondering how I would keep up with the talent from Janesville. It's worth it spend the 2.5 million we will get it back. God I love Sarcasm.

And I have not been wrong from the start. I said the 200,000.00 would not be the final number they ask for and it wasn't.janesvillean you want this so bad I'll back it all you have to do is agree to pay my share of the property tax. I bet you won't!!!!!

Timetochange didn't seem to want anyone with "hockemom" in their username to respond. But since you did, can you please provide us with a source of information that provides concrete research on these proposals. I don't think anyone has done that yet. Thanks!

Timetochange -- like you, I would also like to see some numbers! I would like to see the results of the research that has been put into this proposal. What will be the income and expenses? As a taxpayer, we have a right to know the numbers! If anyone knows where we can read more comprehensive information about the various hockey rink proposals, can you please share?
***
Also, timetochange, thanks for your posts (sincerely). They really gave me a good laugh today.

timetochange....people who come to the rink will spend $ in our community. The more games, tournaments or events we offer the more people will come to Janesville and guess what they will do? They will SPEND $ here. When we travel to other cities we spend quite a bit of money, we buy fuel in their city, we eat in their city, we stay in hotels in their city and usually end up at a pro shop or mall in their city. Give change a chance.

If you are not involved in hockey you have no idea how passionate people are about their sport,more passionate than any sport by far. Obviously hockey is not as popular as football or basketball in this town but i feel alot more momentum towards hockey with the success of the bluebirds and the soon arrival of the junior team. The ice rink is an ammenity to the city and i gaurantee any town this size has an ice rink, its just bad timming that the rink is in major need of repair. Im pretty sure when the junior team starts their games here you will see people from other communities talking about how run down and small are rink is compared to all the other teams rinks.Its time to bite the bullet and get on with building the new facility. Rinks are never big money makers but more for the community enjoyment and keeping kids active. We have nice football,baseball,swimming,and biking facilities its time for a new rink.If you feel you are being taxed to death then move to a smaller town with no ammenities its your right. Time for people to start thinking positive and emerge stronger than ever. Ice is nice.

This really isn't a bad idea as long as the private ownership outweighs the city ownership. That is how the city I currently live in works and they have a very large junior A arena. It has been working out well for us, but we have a much larger average income and the junior A team makes a profit each year.

Good I'm glad I could help.

From what I can see the main argument for this is that it will attract people to Janesville for the games from outside the community. The secondary argument is the poor condition that the current facility is in. With regards to the main argument even if the facility attracts 400 people per game and we can assume that there would average one game per week if spread out for the entire year, that is still only one night a week that those people are in Janesville spending money. I personally think that the 2.5 million would be better spend with tax incentives that attract businesses, even if they only attract enough businesses to employ 400 people. Those 400 people will be spending a larger quantity of money in Janesville than the people coming here once a week would spend, because they will be here five days a week working. And that would have a greater influence on the surrounding businesses. So if there is an argument in favor of the ice arena becides the one that I just shot down I would love to hear it. By the way I think that it would be very nice to have this I have seen the old arena and it is an eyesore however I think we should use tax incentives to get business here first, start building the area back up and then build a new arena, now is not the time to attract visitors it is the time to attract employers.

Does this mean my tax dollars are going to be spent on this project? I hope not...

Thanks, that really clears things up for me

Have you ever been down to the rink during a hockey tournament - it brings a lot of people in yes more than 30. I done explaining.

tom1cass2 would you mind summarizing the benefits again? I apologize, but I have spent a lot of time in these blogs, because I am very interested in how this plays out, but I have yet to read any solid data supporting how this investment will pay itself back and really benefit the community as a whole. The fact that it will "bring people to the community" just doesn't cut it. How many people...30 per game from outside of Janesville maybe? That doesn't justify the investment. I would like some numbers to back up why you think this makes sense economically. And it would help if the person who responds doesn't have hockeymom in their username. I would just like an unbiased evaluation from somebody who's not emotionally tied to this issue, including projected revenues and expenses, to support why this makes sense.

Should be up in a couple of weeks. Beginning of June.

Here we go again. I'll say this slowly so everyone can understand it.
It's not the proper purpose of government, to build, own, maintain, or operate an ice arena.
If private business wants to do this on their own, then get government out of the way and let them. If they do not, then that fact alone proves that an ice arena is not a viable business.
Focus here folks - this is not about the parks, the bike paths, swimming pools, etc. This is about the city government making another decision that we will all be paying for, for many, many years. Do the right thing city government - get out of the ice arena business.

Anybody heard how the repairs are going on the present rink?

People have tried to explain the benefits of the new rink but no one seems to want to listen. Why should we keep trying to explain when you won't listen. I don't use it so its not being used (that is the mentality of alot of you people). It is used more than what everyone thinks - not just by hockey or figure skaters.

And, again, does anyone have any idea how far $2.5M could get us on other projects? I honestly have no idea what an expenditure of this size means in the grand scheme of the city budget but I cannot help but think that it would be much better spent on a project that would benefit more than just a very small subset of citizens.

I really like how people can't see the big picture. Janesville is so closed minded and prude it is unreal!

Hey hockeymom(s) - Can you please explain how pouring millions into the ice rink will help the city grow and benefit more citizens than just the few who play hockey or ice skate?

This is incredible!!!!! I was shocked when I read this. Did all the taxpayers in JVL suddenly win the lottery and are just flush with money? Soon we will have taxes as high as Madison. If (and I stress IF) the COJ has an extra 2.5 million laying around, maybe it should be directed at existing infrastructure and business incentives. Things that can benifit a larger portion of the community. COJ will still have to budget an annual subsidy to run this. The claims that COJ will become the "City of Run-Down and Vacant Buildings!!" will come to be, because there won't be anyone left to maintain it. If this group wants this NEW building and will lease it back to COJ, then let them build it with their own money. The annual costs will be comparible to what the COJ loose currently.

They are asking the city to shell out 2.5 Million to help build this ice rink and then they also want the city to pay rent for using the facility. Talk about double dipping. But wait there’s more they want the city to pay to operate and maintain the facility also, because that worked out so good for the last ice rink, that is a fabulous idea. “The proposal asks that the existing ice arena remains open” but it is not open it is in need of repairs that this group is against because it is not worth the money and that is why they want a new ice arena, so instead of paying for one or the other let’s just pay for both! I love how they want this new facility yet they don’t want to pay for even half of it and they don’t want to be responsible for maintaining it or staffing it but they want to get money from the city to lease it to the city after the city pays for the majority of it and the maintenance and the staff. That is quite a deal for them, doesn’t sound to promising for the city though.

Way to go hockeymomsrule! Janesville needs to spend money to be able to grow & for others to want to come here. We drive to the Madison area a lot for our kids to attend things that just aren't offered here in Janesville, which I'm sure a lot of other parents do too. Think about the $ parents spend in the Madison area to support their kids. I would rather spend our $ locally to support local busiesses but don't have much of a choice for our kids to be able to do the things they love.

OMG!! People..get your facts straight before you post. Not the same guy who bought a bus and a bought baskteball tickets. It's a proposal not a mandate. This city needs to focus on attracting new businesses and families. The "let's not spend any money" mentality has got to stop. If we keep it up instead of Janesville being the "City of Parks," we will be the "City of Run-Down and Vacant Buildings!!" Can't wait til that sign goes up..we are headed that way!

Is this group serious? NO NO NO! Stop the insanity! The city cannot afford to give money to this and donors are all tapped out. I also know that once the children of these guys are out of hockey in a few years, they will leave the Ice Center high and dry. Happens all the time.

The real kicker here is they are "still discussing" who will own the place. The group thinks the city should run it day to day but they want some ownership. Think about that mr and mrs taxpayer. This is per the wed Stan M show with Larry S.

paytomuchtax - You've been wrong about this "since the beginning" - At least the beginning of your comments. $2.5 million is NOT 15 times more than $200,000. Maybe that's why you pay too much tax.....?????

I am confused. We are asking the city to fund a new ice rink that cost families to skate on. Yet the city has not put in a bike and skate park that can be used year around cost free to families. Every family who has children own a bike and skate board but no place to use them safely. Yet we look around the area and see towns like Whitewater, Delavan, Edgerton and the list goes on who has put in a park for everyone to use free. lets be realistic when spending money and build what the community needs that will get the most use.

A referendum...what a novel idea! We're talking about dropping millions while the tax base is shrinking so we should probably let the entire community weigh in on this issue instead of just the few on the council who don't seem to have done any kind of cost/benefit or payback analysis on this project. BTW, can somebody explain the significance of a city of 60,000 spending $2.5M on a project like this? I can't help but think that kind of dough could be much better spent somewhere else but I just have a hard time thinking in terms of millions and understanding the significance because that is a lot of money! Also, I am in favor of letting the private group fund the whole thing if they think it is such a good idea...I don't really want to help them.

i think my idea will work.

Will the new ice arena be less controversial than the old one?

Is this expense big enough now to consider a referendum?

Said Squire: "We want to have a quality facility for a community of 60,000 people and the surrounding area, and this is great for families and kids to have the opportunity … to spend time together.

"That's what Janesville's all about."
It's all about drinking beer and getting drunk! Long live GM!! What a dumb idea.

An old PC tech support joke sums up the city vis-a-vis the ice arena.
------------------

"Hello this is tech support. I understand you have a problem with your computer. How may I help you today?"

"Okay. I was just typing on my computer, in the notepad. And suddenly the entire screen went black. Nothing's on the screen, and I can't get it back no matter what I do. I'm so confused."

"Okay. No problem. I'm here to help. First of all, are any lights on the computer on? Is anything blinking?"

"No. There aren't any lights blinking or anything."

We all sat there in silence, wondering what the man was doing wrong. He went through all of the steps I would have gone through with this woman, had I gotten the call, and he seemed to be extremely polite, friendly, and helpful. Than he asked her, "Okay, we've gone through a good number of issues, and none of them seems to be the problem. Can you please look behind the computer, and let me know if it is still plugged in? Do you have a child or a cat or dog who could have knocked out the plug, or perhaps you could have accidentally knocked it out yourself?"

"I can't see anything back there, so I can't tell if it is plugged in or not." she answered slowly.

"Well, um, can you move a few things, or look under the desk?"

"I can't see anything." she said again.

"Why can't you see anything? Is something blocking you way?"

"No. It's dark in here. The power went off about an hour ago."

We all held our breath, waiting for his response.

"Okay. Well maam, this is worse than I thought."

"Is it bad?" She asked him.

"Oh yes. Do you still have the packing material and the box that this computer came in?"
"Yes." she replied.

"Good. I want you to pack everything up and take it all back the the store." he told her.

"What do I tell them?"

"That your too stupid to own a computer." he replied.

------------------
The city should return the ice arena.

paytomuchtax (well, you certainly make your position clear there), these are not the same project, so this isn't what you're saying it is. Definitely during the discussion of the arena upgrades it developed that there were serious shortcomings at that facility.
.
It's like you have a car that needs repairs, and the mechanic tells you it's going to cost $2000 to do the repairs, versus the option of buying a new car for $20,000. You can't say that the "price went up", you're comparing a different way of solving the problem. And really, the $2000 needs to be spent now, because you can't buy the new car until next year anyway.
.
If the proposal on evaluation is potentially a better investment than renovating the arena, it could be a good move. But it's still a year or two from any type of decision, so the interim upgrades will still need to take place to allow the team to use the arena.
.
As for making the team raise the entire kitty, obviously if they have to do that it is just not going to happen. Presumably they need a budget for uniforms, equipment, salaries, promotions, and all that on top of a facility.

I have a perfect solution!! The Hockey people say they can raise $1.5 million..... this is the exact amount needed for repairs to the existing facility! How about these fund raising efforts go towards the existing facility and the city won't have to spend anything? Then we could just give the whole ice arena to the junior hockey league in return for public ice time? It would no longer be a drain on the city and cost us nothing! This would be a totally win-win situation for everyone!!!

csense It is you who don't get it. They want 2.5 million. Now we started this at 200,000.00. now it is 15 times more at 2.5 million. I also find it upsetting as a parent who has had to say no to his son because we could not afford the fee for youth hockey that they have 100,000.00 in the bank to donate. Why not reduce the price so more could be involved. And who will be stuck with the bill for the second sheet of ice if they don't raise the money the tax payer. Don't think for one minute that they won't put in the second sheet right away because as the article says they have 100,000.00 in donations that are tied to that second sheet so it's a done deal. If this is started and the fundraising does not get done we as tax payers will be stuck. I said all along that it was going to cost us way more than the 200,000.00 they said and it is. Why don't they do they fundraising first than build I will tell you why because they know they can't raise that kind of money so if they can get it going they know it will have to be done even if they can't get the funds raised they will be at the door of the tax payer. You mark my words that will be the case I have been right about this from the begining!!!

hannah - you should really read the article before going straight to commenting on it - the city is not being asked for $4 million+. They are looking at 2.5 and the hockey club and building committee would be coming up with the rest. And, when the time comes for a 2nd sheet of ice, the article states that the hockey club would be fundraising for that amount, not the city.