Changes have to made. It is like we are inviting them in.

You know... stories like this make me incredibly sad. It not only feeds into the terror of the average American who have no moderate Muslims to be their example, but it also makes me sad for every Muslim, like myself, who now get to be the target for prejudice everywhere we go. This man should be ashamed of himself for saying "Allah o'Akhbar" (God is great) before killing innocent people. He is making this world terrified of Islam. People like him are making it impossible for my husband to get his citizenship to this country because hes Arab too and hey, all Arabs are terrorists, right? He directly effects every Arab/Muslim family in America. Like the line in Crash when the black man said every black person suffers when one black man breaks the law. Its not that one black man who suffers--its ALL people because now that person simply feeds the stereotype--feeds the fear.

Islam is a very misunderstood religion. It is not oppressive to women (I am a Muslim woman married to a man from Saudi Arabia...if anyone is the living stereotype of a woman bound for oppression, its me). Islam is no more violent than Christianity either. Terrorists do not share my Islam. They do not see the religion the way I see it. They use their own spirituality and their own interpretations of the Qur'an to carry out violence. Anyone can do this. Anyone can use verse after verse from the Bible and use them to kill innocent people--its been done before. The difference is that people in the USA know that this does not represent Christians nor Christianity. We have enough moderate Christians in this country willing to be loud and speak up about the truth. Its about time we get a few Muslims to speak up.

I could type a novel about what Ive learned about Islam and the Arab world and what its like being married to a Saudi man. Every single one of my experiences have been positive and have changed my life forever. Do not think that what you see on the news represents the average Muslim man and woman. It does not. I am surrounded by them every day of my life and I could not thank God more for bringing me such a great group of people.

Looks like now its coming out that his contact with his cleric intensified before the shooting. No doubt to shore up this guys faith.

Max - yes we agree if we could go back with david copperfield we would all be messiahs. Hey how about the other follow up questions - asking to clarify your other statements.
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I am interested specifically in an examination of how you came to the conclusion that some of the bible was added in later and how you can correlate that with the infalable word of god?

Kin you wrote: Still waiting for news of Bumba's first friend who chose to die rather than say he wasn't the son of God.
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Not sure I can supply that for you. The congo was a peace for over 1,000 years and information was passed orally until the fifteen hundreds, then the christians came in and death followed. I forget the point you were attempting but mine was that evidence for Bumba's existance is the same as that for any other god. Is you point is that people were willing to die for jesus thus he is more real than bumba?

Max- Joseph Smith said he had some golden plates that proved Jesus came to minister to the Indians and even had 12 others sign legal affidavits stating they were witnesses to these plates..Do you believe them? Just because some one says they witnessed something does not make it so. Most of the writers of the gospels reported these events and were not witnesses to these "miracles".

How do you find that stuff DiGriz? "They weigh between 800 pounds to 0.78 Rosie O'Donnels." That's rich! If there is a way to make a buck off of worshipers of Narwhals then slice me off a piece of that.

Still waiting for news of Bumba's first friend who chose to die rather than say he wasn't the son of God.

Yes Prounion, there are a few arguments from Scripture that indicate that the purpose of the miracles were a witness to the testimony of the message. The most explicit would be Hebrews 2:3-4:
"how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, 4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."

That being said, just because someone witnessed a miracle didn't mean they would also believe. The pharisees watched Jesus heal people and wanted to have him killed for violating the sabbath. They were worried that people WOULD believe Jesus because he performed signs and wonders to authenticate his teaching.

Jesus didn't want people to follow him because they were 'miracle' hungry. He even said, "An evil and adulterous nation seeks a sign." If you and I could go back in time with David Copperfield, we could all be messiahs. Miracles make for a lousy foundation for belief. The miracles were not central to the faith, only to the authority of the testimony.

Jesus told a parable about a man who had died and wanted to go back and warn his brothers. Jesus said that his brothers have the Word of God, if they won't believe that, then they won't believe someone even if they come back from the dead.

This proved to be somewhat prophetic in that Jesus came back from the dead and yet thousands refuse to believe; still, all those to whom God grants repentance will believe and be saved. (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18)

Come on max you answered a question - no need to delve into the you guys are god bashers reflexive defense.
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You seem to at first say that the passage should have never been in the bible to begin with?
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This is interesting you wrote: Once the apostles had all died and the Scripture was canonized (closed) there was no reason for those kinds of amazing miracles.
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Do you base this on the bible - are there passages that say that the need for miracles is now over due to the closing of scripture?
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Why would you think the time for miracles ended? Again - I will burn in hell if I don't come to believe within a tiny fraction of time compared to eternity, why not just appear or continue with the miricles - why would god hide his existance so effectively when eternal torment is the punishment for not believing he exists?
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If you answer is free will based - then did all the folks during the time of miricles, the alleged multitude that saw Jesus rise from the dead, the isrealites from the old testament - did they loose their free will?

Ok DiGriz, I see your point. I'm beginning with wrong premises. If I can begin with a disparaging and cynical view of ALL things Christian and declare by fiat that God is bad, believers are stupid and Scripture is nonsense, then it could give me a totally different set of conclusions. Yes, I'll have to rethink this. I will try and focus my mind with a much more narrow view.

(I ordered the first three Harrison books. Thanks again.)

OK Pro, I answered this as did BibleDude and BillNewbie and perhaps a few others but you didn't like their answers, they were good answers. Let me give you what I believe is the most orthodox answer. Obviously this is a unique and tough text or you wouldn't have picked it.

Please let's NOT get into the whole science of textual criticism and document reliability, let's accept the findings of the scholars both secular and Christian.

That final section doesn't appear to be the words of Jesus. In the 4th century a couple of historians (Euseius and Jerome) said that this passage was not in the earlier copies of Mark. Your response before was that we are copping out and picking and choosing want we want but there are not many passages that would fall under this same suspicion. The story of the woman caught in adultery is the only other one I know of.

Having said that, in the event that these were the words of Jesus, I need to speak to the purpose of miracles. Jesus and the apostles were not trying to cure every ill and limb. The miracles cannot be separated from the doctrine that the apostles were teaching. There were men like Simon Magus who said he was speaking for God and there had to be a test. The miracles that Jesus and the 12 performed where to authenticate their message. Paul did in fact get bit by a snake. The apostles did heal the sick in conjunction with preaching the Gospel. There is no record that anyone drank poison.

Once the apostles had all died and the Scripture was canonized (closed) there was no reason for those kinds of amazing miracles.

Fact is, some poor ignorant fools have claimed that a miracle is the proof of the presence of God and so try to force miracles through snake handling and other acts of stupidity. Then there are the charlatans (Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Robert Tilton, etc.) who use a verse like this to fleece the flock. That was not the intention of this verse. We have a rule in theological circles: Never form a doctrine around an obscure verse. A similar principle is to be careful about building a doctrine out of a narrative portion of scripture.

This is the Drano test passage, allthough testing by the laying of hands on the sick might be a better/safer test. If that works one of you should head on down to the children's ward and cure the kids there. Then us trolls would not accuse your god of sitting on his hands while children suffered and died for much longer than Jesus did during his few days of torment.

Mark 16:17-18 (King James Version)

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Thanks DiGriz, it sounds like a great series. I enjoyed Dune back in the day and Histchhiker's Guide, now I like Jeffrey Deaver's mysteries. Harrison's books sound like great fun, thanks for the lead.

It was probably something in my brainwashing, every time I start to insult you I get the shakes. Maybe they can help me at the Saloon Church, some of those guys had the shakes. I'll be ok after I go fire my SIG P229 out the window in random directions. Take care.

LMAOROTF, DiGriz! Definitely LMAO! Definitely ROTF! Definitely... Three minutes to Wapner.

DiGriz, I'm trying so hard to form a clever comeback but I just can't get past your service and uniform. Maybe someday.

Whereas no one reads our garbage anyway, let's change the subject to Slippery Jim. In "The Stainless Steel Rat Goes To Hell" Jim's looking for his wife who has been captured by a man who takes advantage of people with LMAOROTF (as you call it). The premise sounds great and I'd love to start reading it, but should I go all the way back and read the first book and work through the whole series or can I start in THAT one.

Blessings and be safe sir.
Prounion, you're a troll.

LMAOROTF. Sounds serious Griz - what can we do to help those unfortunate souls afflicted with that terrible blight?
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I have heard of this before I think - some vitims of LMAOROTF don't even know they have it and when they are told they have it - they lash out and call that person a troll.

Excellent post Max, I'll look into that. I don't think I am frustrated though, I have learned a great deal on these blogs, its like a hobby. And I think it has prepared me to debate in public, speaking of which - joejack when's your next appearance?

Sounds like Max is talking about the millions of missionaries that are sent out by a god.

"I won't generalize and say that all people who are atheists are hateful, bigoted, and violent even though the most atheistic regimes known to man (Stalinist Russia, Mao's China, and Pol Pot's Cambodia) were also, not coincidentally, the most violent, hateful, and bigoted. These are just facts." The argument is flawed.

Even god ITself is a mass murderer. Did IT not command ITs minions in the old testament to kill every man woman and child of the opposition? Every time there is a preventable murder and IT does not act to stop it then one could make the case the god is an accomplice.

The last time the religious ruled the world was known as the DARK AGES! Pulling names of religious leaders who massacred many would be just as easy. Then there was the Puritans who murdered in the name of the same god you believe in.

Our god believing leaders murdered the indigenous people of North America by the hundreds of thousands because of manifest destiny, the idea that god wanted them to. The US in more modern times has been involved in supporting the believers as long as they weren't communists. I suggest you research the SOA and its ties to some nasty people here in this hemisphere.

It seems to me that leaders, believers or not, are all susceptible to following their own delusions and finding justifications for it. But if the leader happens to believe in a god as defined by the bible then it is "okay".

Prounion, we watch you day after day and this has got to be very frustrating for you. We want to help and the good news is, there is help. Try to change one habit everyday for example, today, try to stop posting online. Let me know if I can help.

"Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) is an anxiety disorder where a person has recurrent and unwanted ideas or impulses (called obsessions) and an urge or compulsion to do something to relieve the discomfort caused by the obsession. The obsessive thoughts range from the idea of losing control, to themes surrounding religion or keeping things or parts of one's body clean all the time. The thoughts and behaviors a person with OCD has are senseless, repetitive, distressing, and sometimes harmful, but they are also difficult to overcome.
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/center_ind...

Andre - the religious - even without any evidence for thier beliefs - act on them. Case in point - this article.
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Such misery and ignorance perpetrated by groups of deluded people that believe in the imaginary with no more evidence for their particular imaginary being than the infinity of imaginary objects and beings that also cannot be dissproven.
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While we cannot dissprove the existance of thier gods, we can make the case that their existance is unlikely in the extreme, much like all the other gods and all the other beings and objects a human mind can conjur up.

Kin come now. I am sure those people and mircles existed for Zues and Bumba and Odin. Sometimes the gods would sleep with humans, and the humans would give birth to a god. If you are looking at today in particular, maybe because only real god's survive and are worshipped in present day (?), at any rate all of the sacrific for a personal god happens with equal or greater zeal today wether it be Allah or Jesus or Bumba. Point is they all operate based on blind faith and manipulation of thier followers.

Ok dub - guess your done then. I am not sure what else you would call the leg bones on a whale then.

I am looking forward to followers of Bumba who can point to ten people who knew Bumba personally who, when faced with terrible deaths or denying that Bumba was the son of God, each chose terrible deaths. In fact, I'd settle for one. I'd even settle for one documented miracle that occurs when someone prays to Bumba.

In the meantime, I won't generalize and say that all people who are atheists are hateful, bigoted, and violent even though the most atheistic regimes known to man (Stalinist Russia, Mao's China, and Pol Pot's Cambodia) were also, not coincidentally, the most violent, hateful, and bigoted. These are just facts.

In so doing, I'll be showing much more open-mindedness and tolerance than the loudest lefties on this string.

Here is a great You tube video that I was talking about in my earlier post in this thread, on how the Muslim religion will soon dominate the world.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kKkY5EpV...
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One must find it amusing at all these secular/atheists on blogs like this debate how right their beliefs are, and the reality is they will fade away in the wind; as the Islamic culture takes over the world by sheer numbers of procreation! Kind of reminds me of one of the great American philosophers/poet; Ralph Emerson..He wrote about how all the intellectual "elites" pat them self on the back for being smarter then all the rest. While all those idiots they mock are the ones breeding, and procreating the race, in mass! LOL.

Truth - You are still around aren't you? I am interested on your opinion of the fossil record. The deepest layers contain no fossils, then the fossils of simple moving to more complex as one moves further up the strata of undisturbed layers. To me clearly this is due to early simpler life forms evolving in complexity. What are your thoughts?

Right Andre - and if I took the postion that Bumba existed you would not be able to prove me wrong.
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Of course just as is the case with the christian god it would be only conjecture on my part unless I provided evidence. Nonetheless it is impossible to prove that Bumba does not exist.

http://www.investigativeproject.org/1081...

Check out this story.

One of their (CAIR) assumptions is that "the war on terror is a war on Islam".

http://www.cair.com/

This group, Council of American-Islamic Relations, to this day refuses to acknowledge the word "islamic jihadists" to downplay what really some of these cowards stand for.

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/ProvenCAIRt...

Maybe this will help?
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http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/essays/c...

Dub you wrote:
I was referring to the way evolutionists claim cows evolved from whales. Please replace udders with tails, or six stomachs, or ears, or legs, then proceed with the "evidence"
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As was stated before whales and cows have a common ancestor - which explains the vestigial leg bones that whales have.

whateverx33-can you post any article that is "sympathatic" to the gunman? I'm interested in where the cons are seeing these.

Freeradical, thank you, thank you, thank you for your sensible thoughts. The nonsense that runs rampant and unmoderated in these threads trivialize the importance and focus of this horrible story.

I scroll down no more than ten posts and I'm reading about the "christian inquisition" and evolution. It's a travesty an article about our own soldiers dying has turned into, what looks to be at first glance, not only off topic-but on topic of another article(didn't that one get disabled? Let it go!) Let's drop the evolution/christian/religious mumbo jumbo and if you want to comment, make it about this article. It's about the man who killed our own soldiers on our home soil. If I heard correctly it is one of the single largest losses of life and casualties in a single attack since the war started. And you steer us into evolution/religion? It's one of the only times I can honestly say, BOTH sides are wrong.For this page.

I am so sick of watching the news and reading newspaper articles that are defending this guy on what he did! He is NOT the victim, as most liberals are saying. He deliberatly killed fellow Americans, and for what? He didn't want to get deployed and go kill other Muslims? German-Americans and Japanese-Americans killed Germans and Japanese in WWII, so that's a really dumb excuse. I can't believe people are actually buying this whole "oh poor Hasan, he must have been going through so much" seriously? I hope this guy does get executed, he's nothing short of a TERRORIST, and anybody that believes otherwise is both blind and ignorant.

And why did the comments in this article suddenly turn to talking about christianity and evolution?

I apologize for the sexist remark. A failed attempt at humor.

dub, to answer your questions; some, no, no, I just did. You made some statements yesterday, and I gave you my retorts. I am not trying to prove evolution, that is not my job. Evolution is a theory/fact that is accepted world wide, it is your right to believe or not. the largest Christian sect(if you will), teaches evolution in their schools, believes the world is 4.5 billion years old,a "form" of one celled life from which all species evolved has been around for billions of years, and concedes that all living organisms are"genetically related." It is the Roman Catholic church.

Troubling portrait emerges of the quality of American education.

The inqusitions were the use of Christianity for political purposes and was politics not religion, just like the disputes of Ireland against England is political in nature, not religious. Christianity is the NeW Testament.. The Old Testament was for dealing w/ things like human sacrifice in primitive time.
- Evolution has never been 'proven' and there is more evidence against it than supports it, and natural law disproves it, such as all matter is falling apart, not improving.. and the same is true of dna/communication.
- Most, if not all new evolutionary thought and theory is built upon previous unproven thought and theory.. There are things in the textbooks which have been disproven but are still taught in the textbooks and classrooms. It's a belief and a faith like any other.. One which Hitler fully embraced. All beliefs and groups have their insane ones, that's a fault of human nature, not just some group(s).
- Scientists saw the Australian Aborigenes as inferior on the evolutionery scale, as the "missing" link, and encouraged their being hunted, so they could be experimented on by evolutionery scientists and displayed in zoos.
- To judge Christianity on the acts of Islamic extremism shows yet another human bigotry, which is the true root of all evil aNd wars.

Kin both religions are not based on any sort of evidence. Both have a very violent history and guiding texts that can easily lead the beliver to the logical conclusion to engage in human killing. Just a fact, not bigotry.

Looks like we are in agreement then Andre. No one can say the Bumba myth is not true.
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Actually crafty you might want to read back further - Dub asked for evidence and provided an example, pharm provided that very same example, then dub asked for another one and was served again. There is a ton of evidence for evolution - what kind would you like to see?

Pharm rocked you Dub. Not.
Dub asked for ONE shred of EVIDENCE of Evolution. NO ONE has provided that proof. No one will either.
Send the terrorist scumbag to the electric chair where he belongs.

"I was saying that his faith and your faith are identical - incriminating your dangerous ignorance along with his."

Put another way, one muslim is ignorant and dangerous, so all Christians are ignorant and dangerous.

You're so close-minded you can't see the bigotry you wallow in every day.

Kin - what in the wrold would be racist or intollerant about my post. I was pointing out that the irrational belief in god leads to violence - wether that imaginary friend in the sky is Allah, Jesus, or Bumba.

Ok Andre - whatever anyone says carries equal weight with you. To take your example further - when someone from the Congo says that Bumba vomited forth the universe, the earth, the stars, us and the animals, that is just as valid as christianity because you can't prove it is not true.

You've gotta love how lefties who profess to be tolerant and open minded, when given the protection of anonymity, post the most intolerant and close-minded comments you'll ever see. Witness the post two down from this.

I shouldn't be surprised that the biggest racists I've ever known were all Democrats.

Dub Pharm is right. Whales and cows had a common anscestor in the distant past. Whales do have hind leg bones. Transitional fossils are all over the place. BTW pharm rocked you. Please come up with more examples of how impossible evolution is.
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I was not defending a murding terrorist - I was saying that his faith and your faith are identical - incriminating your dangerous ignorance along with his.

Uh, whales have tails. I know very little about this subject, but I do know that whales were at one time supposed to be land animals, somewhat like a hippo, and still possess hind leg bones. No real evolutionist would say cows evolved from whales.

Uh, whales do have udders.

Ok andre - sorry you are right you have no god. I am not sure what your point is if you agree that there is an infinate number of things that cannot be proven to NOT exist. That is why the burden of proof is on the christians to prove that what they believe is true. If I say santa is true and real, the onus would be on me to prove it, not on you.

Nice link Dub. Its amazing that people can look at that and see think he was crazy for thinking Allah created the universe, then make the statement that their god was the real true god without providing any evidence beyond what islam provides for Allah.
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Actually there is a mountain of evidence for evolution, which is built upon every day, without evidence that would point to a different theory. Surely you don't mean that because a human did not physically observe the entire timespan of human evolution that it cannot be proven as fact? What evidence would you require to prove it as "fact?"

It will be intersting to see how they charge this dirtbag. If this guy so hated America why the hell didn't he go and join the rest fo the islamic fascist scum and get blown up by our bombs. I say let's strap this guy to a bunker busting bomb under an F-15 and drop on top of a terrorist camp.

Thats for sure, the United States might yet be defeated by the political correctness enemy...Those that are using it against us are, no-doubt, having a gut-busting laugh at us.

dub190- right on. Political correctness is what got our brave men and women killed by a coward.

Whenever Hasan is in better health, let's start the water................ process.

Reports are surfacing from Walter Reed Medical Center that several officers working with Hasan knew he was making anti-American remarks/comments regarding the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. They did not want to come forward for fear of being labeled racists against the Muslim community.

If I remember correctly, someone used radio carbon-dating that showed the wood from the trees buried by the Mt.St. Helens eruption to be something like 100 million years old....That makes something just not right with carbon dating methods.

Of course that is also consistant with the universe not being just 6,000 years old too since light is hitting the earth today from starts billions of light years away.
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Also the forty or so different radiometric techniques performed on a variety of materials that also establishes the age of the earth.

Prounion, just give a quick glance up at the article headline before you start typing again, it will help you to focus.

Max - may the flying spagetti monster's noodly apendage touch you and remove the anger and hate from your heart.
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I was thinking this morning about how much evidence there is for the earth being 4.6 million years old as opposed to the few thousand years that dogma dictates.
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Interesting that the mitocondrial DNA mutation rate when compared to the difference in DNA between us and other species is consistant with an old earth. Wonder what other evidence would support the old earth.

Prounion, YOUR brain is muddled with religious thought. It's all we get from you.

The trouble with you religion obsessed fanatics is that you have lost all sense of balance. You spend your energy and efforts in forcing every one to endure your unwavering dogma. You're like a wind up doll that just keeps repeating the same fanatical buzzwords over and over. You cant stay on any topic because you only have one point of view. You judge and speak condescendingly to everyone who disagrees with you. Religious fanatics are boring and tiresome.

Andre thats true - in fact there are an infinant number of things that you can't prove Do Not exist. Like santa, or the Easter buddy, or the Flying Spaggetti Monster, or the invisable pink unicorn. Same is true for your god, and the god that this guy killed for.

Max I thought we were on topic. The troubling picture of this guy is that his cognitive capacity was muddled and cripped by religious thought with no basis in reality. You know the old saying bad people will do bad things but to get a good person to do bad things - that takes religion.

What a surprise:

"Danquah assumed the military's chain of command knew about Hasan's doubts, which had been known for more than a year to classmates in a graduate military medical program. His fellow students complained to the faculty about Hasan's "anti-American propaganda," but said a fear of appearing discriminatory against a Muslim student kept officers from filing a formal written complaint."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091108/ap_o...

How many people/kids are murdered, raped, assaulted, and abused daily/weekly/annually by subjects with known histories or obvious aberrant behaviors that predict such proclivities and outcomes? Most, no doubt. And yet we as a society stick our collective heads in the sand and do nothing until such irreversible tragedies are acted out!

That is the real shame of our "civilization" in it's present incarnation -- denial of appropriate preemptive action in the cause of an absurd degree of perceived individual rights, often despite all obvious signs and evidence, and the ridiculous extreme of not taking appropriate measures due to our not wanting to offend anyone!

Headline - "Troubling portrait emerges of Fort Hood suspect".

Prounion, you're off topic again... still... perpetually, whatever. Retire your soap box.

Someone once told me that many late-term abortions were done to cover up the "evidence" of people in high places sleeping with their secretaries after they started to show a bulge....Now, is that murder or what...

The corrupt governor, Kathleen Sebelius played a large part in the scheme too, I believe.

realchoice.blogspot.com............Kristin Neuhaus did the "rubber stamping"

I don't have a link, but many were justified for "psychological" reasons.....like someone needs to kill a baby past 6 months for psych. reasons....They had a "professional evaluator" that would swear to anything..I've never heard of a late-term abortion that was turned away from there...they just got 'em done however they had to.

Truth - would you mind providing a link to the info on the rubber stamp with Tiller?

Max- your god would have left some evidence that he did all this, you just need to find it. He would not have created us and everything, threatened us with eternal suffering if we did not beleive, then hide all the evidence so that defending your position with logic and reason was impossible, that would just be cruel.

Tiller had a "rubber stamp" medical source that would lie about the mother's health to justify the killing.

I'm actally on the fence as to whether killing Tiller was justified, he yanked viable babies out and killed them when there really wasn't anything medically wrong anywhere.

truth1, stop feeding the trolls. They are haters, judgmental bigots who use hyperbole instead of logic and jump from thread to thread shoving their beliefs down everyone's throat. Don't feed them.

We agree on removing the tax exempt status! Also on the price of liberty being eternal vigilance.

Sorry truth - my bad - got you mixed up with the other guy. I retract my statement that you believed that Tiller's termination was justified.

prounion- What that tells us is that churches and pastors should never sell-out to the reasoning of gov't operatives and be paying attention ALL THE TIME....You'll probably be surprised to know that I think property taxes should be paid on church buildings, perhaps at a lower rate, but they should pay like others have to....They shouldn't be able to carve out huge plots and put up huge buildings removed from tax rolls.

Yea the best case for the churches is that they behaved like the people in the villages that smelled the burning flesh coming from the smokestacks and saw the starving families and knew exactly what they were doing to the jews and did nothing.
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The thing is that the religious tout - relentlessly by they way - that they are more moral. Some even say that morality comes from god. Then there should be some evidence of that I say. Christians have higher divorce rate, teen pregnancy rates, but they rage against homosexual marriage and anything other than abstinance only sex ed.
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Even so - even when they sat idle and went about their work supporting the Riech, in the end they were really only human. They were not an all powerful, all knowing, all loving god.

It wasn't me that said "40 abortions justifies killing an abortionist", it was someone else......I did say that Tiller got it for killing heathy babies from healthy mothers past 6 months along....Tiller didn't get killed for what he believed, it was for what he DID to babies past 6 months.

Niemoller, a pastor, was killed for opposing Hitler as I think were a couple others, but most of 'em went along....There was another one that opposed him and lived into the 1990's, but I'm ashamed to say I can't remember who it was.

prounion- Most of the pastors in Germany had sold-out to Hitler and his politics, had they not done that, yes, they may have died, but they may have accomplished something, we'll never know.

DiGriz- I didn't make any statement that I "didn't like catholics", I just said the "pope" is just another man...It is what it is, thats ALL I said, not that I "didn't like" someone.

Dude - you said homocide was justified if a doctor aborted 40 babies a day - in some eyes you would not be a "real" christian. Don't worry though - you are accepted here by us.
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The real problem here is the common belief that blind faith is a virtue. Once a person buys into that - and it really doesn't matter which one of the you will be rewarded for all eternity religions that did the indocternating - a good person can use logic and reason to kill.
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A person takes on blind faith that their existance on earth is but a spec of dust in thier own great everlasting endless timeline of eternity. Then he is told, and accepts that non-believers will have only that little meaningless spec of time, but no afterlife, or one of eternal torment. So then the infidel starts trouble in the eyes of god - and blammo logic dictates that this relatively insignificant amount of time on earth should be terminated, especially if he starts messing with people minds with things like facts and science that might rob someone of thier blind faith and everlasting life, then its an easy and resonable choice to kill.
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Once a group of folks starts buying into religious ideas without a shred of evidence that they are true, usually that starts at birth, anyways they become a breeding ground for violence.
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The churches (protestant, catholic, others?) in Germany in some cases actually helped the Nazi's both during and after the war, they could have at least followed the example of thier god and sat idle.

A real Christian won't commit violence over destruction of any symbol, including a cross or a bible...Try standing on a koran in front of Islamists.
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We have to define what a "real" Christian is, A real Christian tries to forgive as best they can, they don't go out killing for the sake of their religion...I'm sure there are all kinds of factions that call themselves Christian and commit all kinds of violence, most of 'em are frauds......Where were all those Islamic groups condemning 911, or beheadings for denouncing Islam?...There are none that I know of, maybe some individuals here and there, but how about CAIR and the like?
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You can't be telling me a cross is as offensive as a swastika, are you?..If Hitler hadn't been permitted to hang swastikas over the crosses in the churches back then, maybe the Germans wouldn't have all gotten so brainwashed.

How far back can we go - Army of god in the 90's, Protestants vs Catholics too old? The klan too old - certainly raping and killing of women as witches is anchient history, as is the inquisition. Ok just recent times then today christians regularly kill witches in Africa, after all Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Or the Lord's Resistance Army working on god's behalf in Uganda raping, killing, sex slavery and using children as soldiers. All this misery due to religion while god sits idle.

Truth - here is a brief list of current religious hot spots in the world:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_w...
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Here in america relgion induced death and misery are all too common. of Note is the epriodic story of some ingorant parent that watches their child die of somethings simple while they pray over them.
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Take you previous comments that 40 babies a day justifies death for an abortion doctor - some christians go ahead and pull the trigger on that - enforcing god's will.
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Also GW was very religious, I think he meant it when he said we were going on a crusade and then started invading countries. God was on his side, at least in his mind.

Is that true, DiGriz? In all you time spent in the Middle East, have you ever heard a single Christian exclaim a religious sentiment with regard to the death of a Muslim? (I am going back outside, too. The weather here is beautiful.)

Wow, way to "bring it home", DiGriz! Standing O, my friend.

...I'm going outside now

Well DiGriz, I am a Christian and won't physically harm anyone that doesn't try to PHYSICALLY harm me..I really don't care what anyone chooses to believe.
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You've got to get it in your head that Islamists ARE killing and Christians ARE NOT killing others for what they profess to believe.

DiGriz, I'm not one that believes one can go on doing whatever they want and then ask "forgiveness" or pay money and "go to confession" and keep on doing it......Anyone that thinks that way is seriously deluded.
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That said, I'll say again, Christians don't torture animals for fun or religion the way others' do OR hurt people for saying Christianity is bunk.

I'll get flak here, DiGriz, but I'm not in favor of the "pope" brand of religion...He's just another "man", not "God's rep".

I'll be the first to say the American Indian situation was horrible, but the slaughter didn't happen in the name of true Christianity the way its happening now in the name of Islam.
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I believe those killers will sometime answer for what they did.

I watched a fascinating program about Hitler's occult connections, before that I also didn't know that the swastika is an occult symbol, I'm sure not many know that.....Jim Jones was debunked from the beginning by a Christian reporter, Les Kinsolving, but none of the idiots in California at that time would listen to him and the gov't officials even worked against Kinsolving.

I've not heard of many professing Christianity abusing animals for fun and for religious purposes....Other "religions" do that and so do many non-religious people.

Can anyone tell me where to find Christians killing people for saying Christianity is bunk?
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I can tell you where to find Islamists killing people for saying Islam is bunk.
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Tell me again how "all" religions are responsible for the same level of harm.

DiGriz- With all that, you're still talking about forms of dogs that were in no transition of change into anything but another form of dog.

truth1, you alone present irrefutable evidence of the damage done to mankind at the hand of religion. The latest 10,000 years of ice core evidence corroborates the documented historical record and all other known physical evidence. Please share with us your scientific explanation for the previous 740,000 years of ice core evidence.

I don't know how old the earth is, and don't really care to speculate, but 10,000 years seems just as good as any figure anyone else has.

Without delving into past history, today we don't have Christians killing people for not "believing", at least none that I've heard about, but we sure have Islamists that do.

Truth - how old is the earth?

DiGriz- So you're going to tell me that all the variations in dogs and the different sounds they can make means they're something other than a dog and may be in the process of "evolving" into something else?.......There are wolves and there are poodles, but there are no cats in that transition.

I'm really not going to debate whether there is or isn't a God....All I'm going to debate is that people did not evolve from apes or monkeys.

I'm not going to debate human suffering, it troubles me just as much as anyone, but it doesn't show that humans evolved from apes or monkeys.

Of course "all" fossils weren't manufactured, but since they fooled people with the manufactured "piltdown" for so long, how are we to know just how much else they've made-up and in how many areas?...They even got "piltdown" put into school science books.
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DiGriz- So you still ended up with a bird, the same kind of bird.

Truth - your god would have left some evidence that he did all this, you just need to find it. He would not have created us and everything, threatened us with eternal suffering if we did not beleive, then hide all the evidence so that defending your position with logic and reason was impossible, that would just be cruel.

Truth - stick with us - don't give up. Our experience on these boards is that all christians follow the same route - more or less. They test their belief system out on us, we provide facts, they get mad, accuse us of being the problem, then leave. Sometimes they come back, much later hoping that we forgot what tough question we posed to them that drove them away. Beyond evolution, the slaughterfest that your god has inflected upon humanity, the evil passages of the bible, the multitude of religious scams, the 30,000 children that suffer and die daily in god's designed world, the inabilit of christians to stick in the arguement with some semblance of logic and reason is perhaps the clearest proof that their all loving, all knowing, all powerful god does not exist.

Really interested in knowing how old you think the earth is Truth.

So then because one fossil was manufactured - they all were - the tens of thousands, millions of fossils, all a large scam?

Hi Truth - gravity is only a theory just like evolution is only a theory. Its just that a scientific theory used in this sense is different than that used as a straw man arguement by the religious.
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Try this out -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_a...

On the "gap" thing, it depends on how much you want to "believe".....At least one of those "transitional humans" was an ape skull/jaw that was ALTERED by the "researcher", I think it was the "piltdown" one, they did such a good job that it took a long time to finally discover what was done...If they manufactued that one, what other manufactured "evidence" did they make and what else are they capable of?
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Filling gaps with manufactued evidence is very poor form.

DiGriz- Yes, there STILL IS the "gap" problem regardless of those things you state.

prounion- Those are a lot of subjects to digest at once...Let me take this one first: The "theory" term for evolution you say, is inappropriate by saying "gravity" was once a "theory", now its proven...Yes, but we once had a flat-earth "theory" that was disproven..Yes, "evolution" is a theory, and a very weak, nearly impossible one at that.

Ah the old theory comment, how bout that theory of gravity - is that working for you?
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I am not sure where exactly you think I need to have faith in evolution. Faith is something one must have to believe in something for which there is no evidence. What part do you think I make a leap of faith on?
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I would like to know more about what you think are "horrendous gaps," could you please elaborate? Surely you don't mean a lack of transitional species and evidence of that sort - that is abundant.

Truth, excellent, and again as this conversation goes on please don't give up like all the others.
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First off - lets see what brand of Christainity you are, we already know the pope is out, how old is the earth - is it less than 10,000 years?
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I am not sure where exactly you think the science is faulty when it comes to radiometric dating so its hard to adress your comment. The last person to raise the issue eventually just said he believed that god changed the rates at which isotopes decay so that the age of the earth would appear to be much older, hopefully you do not ascribe to that sort of mere speculation.
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Also of interest is that light from distant stars would have taken billions of years to get here. Again hopefully you don't think the speed of light varies, there is no evidence of that. Or maybe god put the light already en-route to us.
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Yes when you talk about 4.6 Billion years a margin of error of a million years isn't so much. To put it in perspective the difference between a 10,000 year old earth and its actual age is like making the mistake that New York and LA are only several yards apart.

Bottom line is that it DOES take just as much "faith" to believe in macroevolution as creation.....No "creation" in school, fine, but don't waste students' time with nonsensical brick-wall-hitting "theories" that have to keep changing in order to not look so utterly ridiculous.

The so-called "scientists" sold out to that phoniness also seem to be able to lose a million years or so here and there with nary a blink.....One says it happened a million-or-so years sooner, the next one says it happened a million-or-so years later.....Just too funny ....Someone should inform them that even ONE million years is a long, LONG time ....LOLOL

prounion- First off, I don't really care what the "vatican" or pope(s) have to say as I have nothing to do with any of that stuff.
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Whats wrong with the theory of "evolution"?...We can start with the horrendous "gaps" that are never fully explained and the cartoonish attempts made by all kinds of people to explain how it supposedly happened with ridiculous, phoney pictures and imagery and "could haves" and "possiblies" along with the fact that "carbon dating" is nothing but circular reasoning used in fake "research"...Those PBS shows just make my eyes roll.
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Now, I know there is lots and LOTS of money involved in this kind of so-called "research and exploration" about evolution, but there has been painfully little "proof" to show for it.

Where has evolution been absolutely proven prounion? It hasnt. "Science" can point to anything, if someone wants it to bad enough. FACT is evolution hasnt been proven any more than any of these religions.

And, I cant believe Im even responding to ANYTHING DiGriz posts (ignorance abounds is his/her comments), but, did I say I believe in EITHER of the BELIEFS? Ummm...NO I didnt. And please enlighten me as to where I can find the absolute proof of evolution. Can you do that? I didnt think so.

LTM - you mentioned that the anti christianity crowd picks on christianity and not islam - I point out they are the same delusion, I am a case in point against your statement.
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It does not require one ounce of faith to believe in evolution, all the evidence from all of the fields of science interlock seemlessly to support it. There is not one bit of conflicting evidence I have to ignore, there is not a leap of faith I have to take. I can verify and ask questions. I do not need to mentally chant or beg repeatedly for continued belief in evolution. I do not need to surround myself with other believers of evolution.
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I understand evolution, I do not kill those that do not understand it. I think the theory of evolution might be just a tad different than a religion LTM.

Kio and Love - christianity and islam are the same. Same evidence, same reason to believe(faith), same death, destruction and misery thruout history. Both are based on ignorance and largely an accident of birth location as to which one people follow.
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Hope that helps.
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Nope, has nothing to do with my comment, not one iota. And even though I personally am not a religious person, I think your comment about religion being based on ignorance, is pure ignorance on your part. Why do you say that? because YOU think so? Because you believe in evolution? Which hasnt been proven any more than the possiblity of an almighty power. Get off your high horse buddy, your belief of the theory of evolution is NO DIFFERENT than those that strongly believe there is a god.

Do you think if we formed a club and met at a bar to discuss how best to shine the light of reason on Janesville at a bar the paper would do a story on us?

Right on, DiGriz! We just need to get several million more people understanding this.

I've seen some of those, Kiowamohican. Most surprising are the stats for places like England and Canada! Ironically, this is precisely why every American Christian should be strongly supportive of Constitutionally separated religion and government. Otherwise, it is simple majority rule.

fool-on-the-hill:
I agree; the numbers and statistics will blow your mind, and this is coming from a guy who makes a living off studying numbers and trends! There is some real good internet video's and articles out there, that detail what is happening simply by the rate of birth/procreation of the Islamic culture. It's really a staggering thing.

kio, the numbers say it is already too late to reverse the current demographic trends. Many European communities are already predominantly Muslim and have started the task of adjusting their laws to accommodate this reality.

Yes - god bless us and no one else.

Prounion, some people believe their particular birthplace was an act of Divine intervention in favor of their own particular soul. This belief forms a foundation to justify the hatred of foreigners.

mickie: Good story, and good to hear your of your brothers service at Fort hood, and to the country. There was a Wisconsin native killed in this terrorist act...Very sad stuff.

Prounion: I wasn't speaking to the religion, or their origins/beliefs. Just the fact that it's become widely acceptable to bash Christianity in today's society, and much more widely condemned to bash Islam.
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There has been some interesting writings on how Islam will take over the world simply by the current birth rates they are having today. As the areas of the world that subscribe to the Islamic religion are exploding in numbers, and procreation. While all other religions, and non religions (which I assume you are) are showing little to no population growth. So basically if you extrapolate out the numbers (never a good thing to do, I admit) you will have a dominant Islam culture (by sheer numbers) in the coming century.

For example this is what your bible teaches -
2 Chronicles 15
13That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
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Throw in a little promise that if you make god happy and do his will you will be eternally rewarded, fail to do so is eternal torture and people do things like kill other humans, but righteously.

Kio and Love - christianity and islam are the same. Same evidence, same reason to believe(faith), same death, destruction and misery thruout history. Both are based on ignorance and largely an accident of birth location as to which one people follow.
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Hope that helps.

My brother has worked at this base for about 15 years..He retired last year as a Long Bow Apache pilot after 24-25 years.. Thankfully he has been working in Arizona right now, because he is again working out of that base. This has been a tragedy for all, its an American tragedy..God bless the victims and families..

Oh no I wasn't saying it was ok to kill someone because they die naturally. My point is that intelligent design and embryonic dogma are in direct conflict. If it is the will of god that "every sperm is sacred" to quote MP then he would not have designed such a flawed system. Right?

Truth I am so glad you are here - why did you not join us in the other threads where we debated the existance of god? Anyways your here now - lets rock.
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Where specifically do you see the flaws in the theory of evolution and didn't the vatican endorse macroevolution?

lovethemidwest:
The double standard has been there for years with the rise of the world wide secular movement. Christianity is really the one thing you CAN be racist about. I mean look at the ones who bash Christianity. Rarely are they called racist, or bigots, but more often praised for being courageous, bold, and enlightened. If you attack the Muslim religion, not only are you deemed a racist hate monger, you can often have a bounty put out on your life. Look at Solomon Rushdie, when he wrote "Satanic Verses". The Muslim hierarchy has something like a $5 million reward for his head, to this day.
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The big problem this whole new PC world has created is that many like this Hasan guy are known WELL IN ADVANCE to be serious threats to society, but now no one dares to say anything. Because if you do, then YOU are the one condemned. It's YOU who has the problem, you who is a racist, who needs help, and sensitivity training. So good people just say nothing, and then you have a Fort Hood, or VA Tech.

Im confused here. Im not a religious person at all, havent been to church of any kind since grade school. However, I often wonder why it is that when a christian does something terrible people claim its because they are christian and make all these anti christianity comments, and its OK. But when a muslim does something, anyone that says a word about the muslim faith is attacked for being a "racist" or an ignorant person. And its not the muslim faiths fault, the person must be deranged or something of that nature. Little bit of a double standard I would say

Well, prounion, I suppose you'll come back here about midnight when I'm not here and accuse me of "running off"

....all that drama, dramatic sound-effects, and phoney cartoonish images on PBS "evolution" shows doesn't prove macroevolution either.

Come on now, prounion, you've got to keep up here if you want to make your arguments.

prounion- Since, you say, most embryos are aborted natually, are you saying that justifies abortionists doing abortions for convenience of the woman?
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Thats like saying shooting somebody is ok just because other people die of strokes, heart attacks, etc.......................

I don't want to "jump to conclusions" but I just think the guy was mentally disturbed or "crazy" or whatever you want to call it. Every race, religion, geographical area, etc has its crazies. Automatically blaming Islam for this is like blaming Jodi Foster for Reagan's attempted assassination. Its not the best example because extremist islam is a problem, but the Reagan mentions popped this up in my head.

...don't say it was "for the health of the mother" either, thats not the case the vast majority of the time.

prounion- I have no idea what you mean when you say "in the name of my religion", but if you're trying to "catch" me, OK, I'll bite by giving you the statement that I think Tiller got what he deserved for doing what he did based simply on my humanity....He killed perfectly healthy preborn children past 6 months..Yes, he needed to be stopped.
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NOTHING to do with religion.

Truth - is Dub's comment reflective of the Christian way to think? Do you think that way - or do you have a different babies per day limit on when to kill in the name of your religion?

Dub wrote: The life of 40 babies a day is worth far more than the life of one murdering abortion Doctor. That's just the Christian way to think.
Go ahead, atheists, tell me the rules of Christianity, I don't care, the gloves need to come off.
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Ok Dub excellent where to begin - first off my christian friend you and truth please stick around after the story moves off the front page, thats where the debate really gets interesting.
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Where did gos tell you to draw the line - are you sure it was 40 babies a day or could it be 35?
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More importantly I assume you are an intelligent design person, most embryo's are aborted naturally, meaning that the woman does not even realize she is preggers and due to natural causes it aborts, intelligent design?

I lean conservative, voted for the "other guy" and was completely against Obama getting elected, but that being said, I didn't find Obama's comments in this case offensive at all.

I might have opened up with the Fort Hood comments instead of doing the opening he did, though, understanding that it was his first public comment after the shooting, and that the shooting was being covered extensively on the national news.

Nevertheless, I can find far better things to be offended about regarding the current administration than this.

disappointed- Bush may have been an idiot in many areas, but "idiot" doesn't even BEGIN to describe what we're in for with this guy.
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I just found another source that says the shooter shouted "allah akbar" before shooting.

I am ashamed at how ignorant some people around here can be. . .it's as if no one from Janesville has ever left the city, state, or country to see the outside world!! Shouldn't we wait until we know the full story before pointing fingers thinking we know the whole story based on his name and religion? I'm not saying this was not an act of terrorism, but we need to wait!! And there is no need to slander other countries or religions!! Or did you forget that not every Muslim- in fact, the majority- are not extremists!! As for those that are Pro-Bush. . .funny how blind you are to everything that happened the past 8 years and suddenly "wake up" and open your mouths!! Bush could do no wrong and Obama can do no right. . .yeah right!! And Bush was SOOO great at responding to emergencies!! Does Hurricane Katrina ring a bell to anyone?? Oops. . .pro-Bush people were sleeping during that. Let's try 9-11 when we had all the information about what was going to happen. . oops we were sleeping then too!! Okay, how about abusing detainees who had not even been charged. . .huh. . .must have been sleeping then too!! Oh well. . .just keep pointing your fingers at Obama and screaming "WOLF" with every move he makes so we can be one divided red and blue nation!! That's how to get stuff done, right?? Okay. . .I'm done. God Bless the troops and prayers for all Fort Hood families.

With Reagan, we had a former movie star that was and ACTED LIKE a president.....Now, we have a president that wants to act like and be NOTHING OTHER THAN a movie star.

The next thing we'll see is o chewing potato chips watching caskets coming off the plane.

"smile and a wink to grieving in .0001 seconds"
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PERFECT description...
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An absolute sickening puke on 2 legs.

I think if you put a scar on his cheek he would look like Al Capone! What ya think?

Oh, yes, "racist"--thats another one .......you don't agree with some people of ANY color 100% of the time, you "hate" them and a "racist"....Some of these people just need to get out of 3rd grade.

Criticalthinking......disagreeing with and voicing an opinion against the social/economic agendas of our president is not racist. I wish the liberals would come to understand this point.........

dub- There are a WHOLE bunch of whackos out there who will say you "hate" them if you don't agree with what they say and do 100% of the time......just expect it.

DiGriz: It would not have been politically correct to have preemptively stopped Hasan.

Thank you for your candid and informed commentary on the war. Very much appreciated. Wish I could just beam ya'll home!

I'm not sure if we're fighting against "islam", but I know we're fighting against islamISTS and they want to kill non-muslims however and wherever they can....
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Can anyone verify if that guy shouted "allah akbar" before he shot???....I heard he did.

"I just wonder if Hasan was as full of hate and assumption about the people he killed as you are about liberals".

Sorry but that's something that this religion teaches them, to hate whatever the West does. I was stating an opinion as to what some people might think about this massacre, not tragedy.

I'm not mad or filled with hate like you claim.

"Many will try to find a reason for this and people like you, Hannity and Fox News will then make the accusation that you have already made."

Excuse me, I merely pointed out that some people would rationalize his actions as "ok" because of our military is doing in Afgnaistan and Iraq. Look, I agree that there needs to be an agressive approach on terrorrism but the whole Afghanistan thing has got to end. Like Digriz said, If they want to live in the dark ages thats their problem. These folsk will never change.

Muslims are responsible for many of the wars that go on because they feel as though every other religion or human being for that matter is not in line with what they belpieve in.

DiGriz- I agree COMPLETELY..

totellthetruth- No "christian organization" that I know of tells their members to kill people just because they refuse to profess Christianity....I have no "beef" with you, just wanted to point that out, thanks...

Using the title of "religion" to support political activism as done by extremist (notice the term extremist, not mainstream) Palestinians and Muslims is making a mockery of our constitution. I should not use religion in any form to destroy human life. It is wrong in any case. The difference is made when your religion instructs you to destroy life. If a Christian 'church' organization was telling people to kill others it should be held in the same regard as these extremist evil muslim groups

DiGriz- He may be "classified" as a leader, but I'm not following in any way, shape, or form (LOL).

Bush didn't "screw up the ENTIRE planet" in 8 years, but o is just getting started.

NVgrf- Well, NONE of that even remotely compares to "giving a 'shout out'" when you should be profoundly downhearted over killing of American soldiers.

I'm sorry, my comment was uncalled for and I'm having it removed.

Hey prounion, you got any more nonsense to post..I'm still here.

Terrorist among us, in our own military, it's about time America wakes up.

....and they're doing it ***TODAY***

DiGriz- Like I said before, if you want to compare people that tear live healthy babies from healthy mothers with people that simply aren't "muslim".....I'm not going to waste my time ......Islamists kill others JUST BECAUSE THEY AREN'T MUSLIM AND NO OTHER REASON.

DiGriz- I'm not really interested in discussing that here .....

DiGriz- Thats why our founders made it so that our country couldn't be ruled by religion....Anyone is free to rule THEMSELVES by religion if they want and not if they don't want.

DiGriz- If you want to compare someone being killed for pulling live healthy babies from healthy mothers with being killed for being other than islam ....I won't waste my time engaging in an argument like that.

I'm not sure if its true or not but I've read that the shooter shouted Alla Akbar before he shot the soldiers.
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Oh, yes, and those soldiers didn't do any abortions.....

DiGriz, "Don't pull that card on me again. I just live with reality." I am not sure what card you mean. If you are referring to my labeling some of your comments racist then yes, that card was played, justified, and played. In terms of the obliterating an entire region (if that is what you are referring to), I still believe I was justified. Dog eat dog world or not, some comments are just unjustified and wrong especially when they include destroying an entire region civilians and all.
In terms of, "There's too much power to be had...too much control to garner, and too many personal ambitions" I agree with you, people are in for the long haul when it comes to each other being narrow-minded war-mongering fools. However, the problem is not helped by regular people pushing the violence.

I also have to say that in relation to the bible burning comment and how a christian would do nothing but a muslim (if the koran was burned) would freak out. Try burning an american flag in front of that same christian (if they are american) and we might see the similarities between the muslim and the american disappear...poof.
Whythink: you are missing the point when you are arguing the semantics of truth's point. Truth said, "no *real* christian", not simply "no christian". In this lies your problem. I believe "real" could be substituted with "true", implying that in order to be a true christian one could not do X, whatever that is. The point wasn't that no one had done something, just that if they did they would not be a "real" (or in this case "true") christian. All this aside however, I am pretty sure God(s) had nothing to do with the killing at Ft. Hood, it was a sick man acting out in a terribly evil way.

whythink - Yes, that stuff was done by people that professed Christianity, but it wasn't done JUST BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T ADHERE TO a religion, like the islamists do...It was done for an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT reason.

Ok, so what Abortion bombing or Dr. who performs abortions murder was done by a none religious right christian.
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Find me one and I will give you that point.

whythink- Your accusing me of "lying" is nothing but funny.

whythink- Abortionists are not getting killed because they are not Christians, they are getting killed because they are abortionists. Killing of abortionists has almost nothing to do with religion.

truth1
You lied, "No real Christian spazzes out over others trying to convert people away from Christanity."
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Then when someone pointed out your biased lie you come back with
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truth1
Nov 6, 2009 at 1:06 p.m.
Suggest removal DiGriz - Are you comaparing the number of abortionists killed to the number of people killed by Islamists?????.
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Nobody is making a comparison just pointed out your statement about, "no Christian" is false. It is a biased lie.
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The comparison is irrelevant because you said, "no Christian." So if you recognize that even 1 Christian murdered in the name of Christiantiy than you must recognize that your initial, "no Christian" statement was a falsehood, misrepresentation and a lie.
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Typical Conservative Tactic.

prounion and Digriz- THIS is the 21st century and what is happening NOW is all I care to comment on not your convoluted arguments about hundreds of years ago, I'm not interested in discussing that on here.
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***BOTTOM LINE*** is that you can burn a bible in front of an armed Christian and nothing happens...try buring a koran(queran, whatever)in front of an armed islamist or converting someone away from islam......anyone that can't see the difference has nothing between the ears but air.

Truth1 - first off please do not flee this thread - even if you start to feel reality start to sink in.
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Second off - you need to go to google and read about the crusades and the fact that christians from all over Europe streamed into the middle east to fight the muslims.
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Also how would you know if the crusaders had "taken Jesus into their heart" or are their other requirements to being a christian? Following the Pope's orders can result in one not being a "real" christian?
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Griz nice posts.

By the way-has anyone read about Kimberly Munley? What a hero! She was the one that topped the gunman by shooting him four times. It's amazing and I'll be looking forward to hearing her story.

Next someone will say that WW2 internment camps were a bad idea.

Truth is, to accommodate everyone and not offend anyone, this country will ultimately cut its own throat. I bet that loads of people this guy worked with and around thought he was a loose cannon but were afraid to to speak up or were silenced if they did.

It's a nice idea and a worthy goal to be inclusive, but being so at the expense of being real is an illusion with great and tragic costs. One day history will recognize this country for the rudderless fool that it has become (or, more likely, it has already happened and most of us simply fail to realize it! -- shame on us).

It's like dropping the "illegal" from "illegal aliens," when that is what they indeed are by statute. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, "idiot" was a clinical term that subsequently turned into "mentally retarded," which morphed into "cognitively disabled,' which probably has now been "euphanised" and included in the nonsensical term "differently-abled." Hey, X-men are "differently-abled.' No matter what you call them before you -- idiots, retards and cognitos -- they are all DIS-abled. Sorry, talk to nature (aka "God," aka the "intelligent designer") about your issues with that circumstance.

Get real, folks (or is it "people"?), or get taken -- or in the case of this wacko (aka "martyr" for Allah/God/Jehovah/Shiva/Zarathustra/the Great Pumpkin), get killed. Either way, I hope the virgins are all males.

DiGriz wrote, "Let them go back to farming gravel and living the simple but pathetic lives they want to live" Racism.
and,
"If they do it again, we carpet-bomb the whole country (atomic weapons are too messy imo), starting with Kabul" Telling.

Ok, now ask yourselves why might people in Palestine and the surrounding countries not like america all that much? Well in the two quotes I offer I give you some examples. Many americans think we have the right, duty, or need to go around killing people (innocent or not) who do not agree with us or who threaten us. However, when someone kills one (or many) of us we hate an entire race or ideology. It seems to me that we must be just as bad as them, only we hide behind words like "Freedom", "Truth", and "Christianity" instead of "Allah" and his word.

In terms of the Obama reaction, it needs to be taken in context (I know that Fox news does not know what that means). Obama was speaking at a conference of Native American leaders he promised to give them. Given the audience, it is completely acceptable for him to speak as he did. Talk about a group of people who should, and in many cases do, hate americans (meaning non-native). While the shooting is important, Obama had to direct his comments to the group at hand, he was *not* giving a press conference on the shooting. To say that this shows how little he cares for america, its people, and its soldiers is ridiculous. If Obama was really dedicated to our military he would pull the soldiers out of the two wars so they could stop getting themselves killed.

DiGriz - Are you comaparing the number of abortionists killed to the number of people killed by Islamists?????.

DiGriz- I do believe the "crusaders" were of a Roman govt persuasion and NOT true Christians.

dub190-Your comments are hate-filled and completely offensive. The hate in your heart for so-called 'un-american' liberals and our president is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in the world today. People that hate other people for not believing what they believe are narrow-minded and that sort of thinking often can lead to dangerous and awful situations like what happened at Fort Hood.

DiGriz- More people have been killed by atheist govts than any other....The other part of what you said doesn't pertain to what I said at all.

Yes, not as bad as it was made to sound.
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truth1
Nov 6, 2009 at 12:48 p.m.
Suggest removal DiGriz- Your dicrediting of all religions while lumping them together is terribly misguided...... Take the example of the dog...No real Christian would spaz out over anything that was done with any book including a Bible..No real Christian spazzes out over others trying to convert people away from Christanity.
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Really, our separation of church and state debate hasn't resulted in an Christian, "spazzing" out because they believe someone was trying to convert people away from Christiantiy? Really? Are you SERIOUS? Not one? Huh? You must live in a different America than I do.
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How about Christian bombers blowing up abortion clinics? How about the christians who defended the killing of the Dr. whom performed abortions? How about the hatred toward that Dr. and his family?
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Yeah, we Christians don't have anyone "spazzing" out.
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whythink- The video is "not as bad as you thought"..........you've GOT to be KIDDING us!!

DiGriz- Your dicrediting of all religions while lumping them together is terribly misguided...... Take the example of the dog...No real Christian would spaz out over anything that was done with any book including a Bible..No real Christian spazzes out over others trying to convert people away from Christanity.

Thanks for the video link. Not as bad as I thought it would be based on your description but I don't hate President Obama...
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Still, poor decision to start a talk with a "shout-out" and laughing before changing to a somber update about Ft. Hood.
Not President Obama's best moment.

I want to first say that what this man did was completely unjustified. There is no reason he should have done this terrible thing. However, the tone of comments here is depressing. Not only are some of you bashing the president and calling "liberals" un-american, but you are being overtly racist toward Palestinians and muslims in general by making questionable comments about their religion and ability to serve our country. Why is it that when liberals cried foul on Bush many of you called us un-american for doing it and yet you can call the current president a commie and consider yourself a "good" american? This seems confusing to me; the "support your president no matter what" worked well for you when he was your brand of crazy, but now that the president is our brand you get to say whatever you want -- no. Why attack the president who could have done nothing to stop this act. At least when people bashed Bush, he had seen the intelligence saying 9/11 would happen and chose to ignore it. Obama didn't see a release saying it was going to happen, so please lay off or start calling yourselves un-american too. I do have to say that by now seeing racism like this in Janesville is not surprising, however, it is still infuriating, he didn't do it because he was muslim, he was sick (much like a lot of our returning soldiers).
To the comments made by diGriz, if we are really nothing to them why don't we leave them alone. I think your comments point to a great reason to stop these wars, we aren't gaining more freedom anyway. I know many will disagree with that, but really? We are just as free as we have been in the recent past (well most of us), and fighting these wars will not stop terrorism, or radicalism, or any other ism you want to attach to something.

So, in closing, Boo to Hasan, and Boo to the people of Janesville and the surrounding area who are choosing to use this tragedy to push their agenda, monger hate, and attack the president.

vatoloco,
I just wonder if Hasan was as full of hate and assumption about the people he killed as you are about liberals.
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Many will try to find a reason for this and people like you, Hannity and Fox News will then make the accusation that you have already made.
Nobody, NOBODY in their right mind, will excuse what he did but I want to know HIS reasons. I want to understand why he did this.
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Obviously he is sick with anger but why was this his way for taking out his anger?
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Could anything have been done to prevent this? Most of the time, when something like this happens, the murderer isn't the only person who did something wrong. The murder is NEVER justified, but what were the other wrongs done leading up to this?
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I have many questions. I don't believe this is a muslim problem. This remains a US problem. There are simply too many mass shootings resulting from sick unjustified anger in this country.
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At some point, when things keep happening to the same people, the victims need to wonder what could I do differently or better. Unfortunately, this isn't an isolated mass murder.

dub190, please define "American." Is it only the people who agree with dub190, or is there room in our country for people who happen to disagree?

I agree with dub190. I cant believe that Obama had the nerve to give his shout outs and laugh and joke when he was suppose to be addressing us on the situation at Ft. Hood.

totellthetruth, I was talking about EVERYone, including our hate-filled enemies.
What the hell IS so funny about peace, love, and understanding? Those qualities certainly don't lead to tragedies like this.

This individual did a horrendous thing...now do I hold that against any other Muslims..no. I am a white, Christian and I would not want to be judged by the actions of Tim McVeigh or Eric Rudolph. I give others the same courtesy.

Bagder-Absolutley not! This guy deserves to be executed. What I am saying is that someone will find some reason to defend this guy because of what he supposedly went through as a muslim in the military. Someone will find that what he did was justified to kill other innocent people based on his religion. It's like saying "Hamas (terrorist group in Palestine) has every right to bomb Isreal because Isreal goes after them with an agressive approach when in reality many fail to see what Hamas does to Isreal.

It's called playing the victim and having more sympathy for the murderer than the victims. Typical die hard liberal characteristic.

Just stop it, the "hate" moniker got old a long time ago.

Goodboy, so you are okay with all of the hatred toward America by extremists who will stop at no end to kill innocent people. Good for you, keep that peace and love thing going.

Good job, everyone! Let's keep the hate train rolling! Hate, after all will transform the world into something beautiful. It certainly worked for Hasan.

"he swore an oath to the military, I didn't hear anything contrary to those oaths"
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OH,... well,....now THAT should have proved something ......IDIOTS.
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Newsflash: Muslims are allowed by their OWN religion to *lie* to further religious causes..Now, I'm not "attacking" all muslims by pointing that out, just stating a fact.

Does it surprise anyone that this guy listed his nationality as Palestinian? Sworn enemies of all Americans and Jewish people.

vatoloco: Are you saying this guy (Hasan) doesn't deserve his day in court?

Digriz- what's your take on all this?

Don't worry everyone some die hard liberal will come to his defense to claim he was justified in what he did. Just wait and see.

So they identified problems 6 months ago, but hadn't gotten around to investigating? Looks like there were some obvious red flags. He was a loner, he had issues that "required counseling", he was against the wars, he had hired a lawyer to try to get out of the military, his "worst fear" was being deployed and he had made threats...gee, let's deploy him and see what happens! Someone really dropped the ball on this one.

He didn't have a problem shooting his fellow American soldiers, but had a problem being deployed.

Anyone who studies phrenology could tell you that this guy was on the edge.