How about it SHOULD be Illegal to mix church and state?

"For example, it is illegal to mix church and state,"
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Typical darwin speaking without facts and wrong as usual.

Quit polluting our soil with chemicals and plant marijuana all throughout the fertile crescent, we'd be out of this recession and on top again in no time. If the corruption and Bureaucracy ever comes to an end, that will happen.

"Maybe you can just sit in the lotus position and chant, "It's not my fault, its not my fault" until the intoxicant makes you forget what you were feeling guilty about."

Two things. One, can you show me the lotus position? That just sounds cool. Two, marijuana isn't that powerful of a drug. If you are feeling guilty about something, it won't make you forget (alcohol will though :-p). If you are clinically depressed, marijuana will not be your saving grace. It's a very mild drug. You're suggestion only sounds snooty, but then again, you might not know that since you seem to know almost nothing about marijuana.

"By the way, I never do business with anyone that I think may be involved with murder either directly or indirectly and I won't pretend I don't know it's happening if I become aware of it like marijuana buyers do."

I hope you only buy domestic products. I also hope you never shop at Walmart.

"And pretending that every business person is a murderer doesn't justify dealing with those you know are, even indirectly."

SWEET! My drug dealer definitely is not a murderer! I don't think his drug dealer is, either. Sure, some drug dealers are. But not every drug dealer is, so essentially I'm just declaring right now my money is not to go to any murderous drug dealers without first passing through at least three sets of hands. By then, you can't call it my money any more. I know when I used to deal, I used the profits to take my friends out to eat. That's where my money went, not to murderers.

"Rationalized equivocations are just self-deceptions that justify nothing."

What an astute observation. Saying marijuana is supporting murderous gangs is definitely a self-deception, and it does not justify keeping marijuana illegal.

"I have nothing in opposition that's comparable to the urge you have to smoke it, no rage that I'm being denied something I want."

I'm sorry, do my posts come out as angry? I wasn't aware that I am full of rage. Please point out where I've been speaking out of anger, using that as a device to further my arguments. If anyone is angry, it is the anti-potters who hate the drug they've never even given a chance.

"As for those who advocate its legalization but don't use it themselves, does that mean that they won't use it when it is legal? I doubt it."

Hahaha, I love that you're assuming that. Have you yourself actually asked anyone who said they are in favor of legalization but don't smoke it themselves? I know for a FACT copperguy said he will NOT smoke even if it's legal. There was at least one other blogger who said the exact same thing. So, do you have any more false assumptions you would like to tell us that support your argument? That's just like your argument against marijuana... full of holes. Mr. Newbie, you're an intelligent person and I can tell that by how you present yourself. You're flat out being ignorant though, and ignorance is a disease of stupidity. Please, please, please, open up your mind.

"So even if he did use your favorite drug, it would have been legal for him to do so since marijuana was legal in Oyster Bay N.Y. where he lived at the end of his life."

But wasn't he supporting murderous gangs or something? I mean, he was smoking -marijuana-, right? Isn't that like some sort of demon weed, legal or not? Isn't that a complete waste of his time and efforts? Couldn't he have lived a more efficient life?

"The "murderous gangs" are the ones who control the vast majority of the illegal drug trade, marijuana included, and force those 2 stoners out of business should they try selling some to widely."

Mom and Pop are like your local restaurant owners who make some darn good food. They don't want to expand their trade. They're happy right where they are! And no one tries to run them out of business, either. As I said, there are way too many customers to be competing for business. Mom and Pop have their very own customer base.

"I can see that those rationalizations are too comforting to let go of."

What's too comforting to let go of? The fact that the gangs will continue to kill people after marijuana is legalized? Just because people in gangs use marijuana does not mean marijuana causes all of the gang problems you see. I talked to Greg AGAIN (he's getting sick of this by the way) and he says legalizing marijuana will not stop gangs from shooting each other. He also says legalizing marijuana will not improve the aim of gang members so that they do not hit innocent bystanders. I don't know why you would make any of those assumptions in the first place, though.... as if people who smoke marijuana are 100% responsible for the poor choices people in gangs make.

First off mr newbie, I must disagree. No one actually has to leave the US to use marijuana legally. Many states have legalized it already. We have over 10,000 federal laws. Do you know all of them? If you don't know all of them, then as your quote from Teddy suggests, how do we know we are complying with them? For example, it is illegal to mix church and state, however, many religious people seem quite happy to ignore that law.

billnewbie: i urge you to read this story. as someone mentioned to you before, you need to learn to concede a point. none of us have denied that the cartels profit off marijuana smokers. thats obvious. we have way more choice in that than you believe. read this story on cbsnews.com. it talks about how 'mom and pop' growers are doing more to hurt the cartels profits than anything. how do you explain that?? is this news report made up?? according to this news report the people arrested in this story are doing more to damage the cartels profits than even you do by not smoking.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/0...

"A criminal organization does indeed translate to 'gang.'"
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Not necessarily.
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"But no, 2 stoners growing their own marijuana and smoking all the product..."
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God, I hope they weren't smoking 159 plants worth of product between themselves.
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"...are not a 'murderous gang.' The 'murderous gangs' are the ones who control the vast majority of the illegal drug trade, marijuana included, and force those 2 stoners out of business should they try selling some to widely."
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So you concede that you can buy from local people you know, without funding "murderous gangs."
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"So the next time a few innocents get caught in the crossfire of the drug gangs, just keep repeating those rationalizations until you've assuaged your guilt."
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The sane and able-minded are responsible for themselves, billnewbie. You're attempting to make the indirect into the direct in a desperate attempt to guilt. Your arguments are built on emotion. Not a good sign.
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"I never do business with anyone that I think may be involved with murder either directly or indirectly."
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How do you know? Even if you don't think so, it may be. And who would tell you if you asked?
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"and I won't pretend I don't know it's happening if I become aware of it like marijuana buyers do."
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Any particular example, or is this more of your guilt trip generalizations?
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"And pretending that every business person is a murderer..."
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Not necessarily murder. There're plenty of other horrible things corporations could be doing (who knows?) with your money right now!
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"…doesn't justify dealing with those you know are, even indirectly."
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That's just it, you either DON'T know, or you know your local homegrown dealer. It's not a rationalization; it's the observance of one giant walk-through sized hole in your guilt-ridden logic.

A criminal organization does indeed translate to "gang". But no, 2 stoners growing their own marijuana and smoking all the product are not a "murderous gang". The "murderous gangs" are the ones who control the vast majority of the illegal drug trade, marijuana included, and force those 2 stoners out of business should they try selling some to widely. I can see that those rationalizations are too comforting to let go of. So the next time a few innocents get caught in the crossfire of the drug gangs, just keep repeating those rationalizations until you've assuaged your guilt. Maybe you can just sit in the lotus position and chant, "It's not my fault, its not my fault" until the intoxicant makes you forget what you were feeling guilty about.

By the way, I never do business with anyone that I think may be involved with murder either directly or indirectly and I won't pretend I don't know it's happening if I become aware of it like marijuana buyers do. So yes, I am that "consumer conscious". And pretending that every business person is a murderer doesn't justify dealing with those you know are, even indirectly. Rationalized equivocations are just self-deceptions that justify nothing. It's what you expect to hear on a grade school playground. "He did it first so it's not my fault".

TheKai, other than being in favor of obeying the law,I have no bias against marijuana, unlike its users having one in its favor. I have nothing in opposition that's comparable to the urge you have to smoke it, no rage that I'm being denied something I want. As for those who advocate its legalization but don't use it themselves, does that mean that they won't use it when it is legal? I doubt it. But since they choose to obey the law until it's changed, I have a lot of respect for them.

I can't seem to find any corroboration for your claim that Theodore Roosevelt used marijuana. However I did find that he had Asthma, and later, Malaria, so while marijuana may have some useful medical attributes, treating Asthma and Malaria are not on that list. I also note that Roosevelt died in Jan. 1919. So even if he did use your favorite drug, it would have been legal for him to do so since marijuana was legal in Oyster Bay N.Y. where he lived at the end of his life. Therefore, even if he used marijuana, that doesn't disqualify his statement about the law.

kai. you amaze me. ive got a bowl waiting for you just for that last post. i mean id have it for ya anyways;) but that will be the excuse for that one:) bravo sir.

Has anyone informed billnewbie that "criminal organization" (which I suppose you could call two stoners growing pot inside their home) does not necessarily translate to "gang," let alone "murderous gang"?
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Do you suppose billnewbie is this consumer conscious about everything?
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Let's play a game...
You don’t know who is behind a casino. You want to believe that there isn't any Mob influence, but you don’t know that for a fact. If you were to ask your blackjack dealer who really pays his wages, could you really trust his answer? If the Mafia controls the casino, would he feel free to answer such a question? Obviously not. The Mafia makes a lot of money from legitimate business fronts. Someone is funding them. How can you be sure it’s not you? And if you're not sure, are you still willing to gamble knowing that your money may very well be funding those murderous gangs?
We could play it again, same Mafia, only this time replace casinos with the stock market, another way the Mafia profits and funds illegal activity.
Hell, with today's businessmen, it doesn't even have to be the Mafia anymore...

Bill,
I talked to Greg. Much commercial grade marijuana comes either from Mexico, or is grown domestically by illegal immigrants sent to the U.S. to grow it, to avoid being caught at the border.

It doesn't have to be that way, though. It can be grown domestically, and legally, at the same time. Change the law. If you legalize marijuana and it becomes a domestic crop, then you take all of those sales away from the drug cartels.

I am interested, Bill, in what you think of copperguy. He is a member of a law enforcement unit and believes that marijuana should be legal. He does not use marijuana. There was a period where I could not use, and I still advocated for the legalization. Facts are facts, and in this case, the facts support the legalization. It has nothing to do with personal bias at all. If I said I enjoy psychedelic mushrooms, then I would also say I fully understand why they are illegal and do not think the law should change. This is an example of how just because someone appears to have a bias, it may not necessarily be a bias. Just because someone uses marijuana, they can not think clearly and without bias or prejudice? You are the one who says it's bad because the law says it is. You obey the law. You are bias. I can spit the same argument right at you. In the end, who cares if you're bias or not? The law is what needs to change, not your bias.

Interesting quote of Mr. Theodore Roosevelt. Did you know that he smoked marijuana, billnewbie?

We the people have the final say on whether or not this man goes to jail. Its too bad juries are filled with people like Justaguy who cave in and convict on a stupid law. If jurys would start ignoring dumb laws that politicians are too scared to change because its not politically correct then mabye prosecutors would stop pursuing charges that they cant get convitcions on. Yeah thats right Im arguing for jury nullification of stupid laws. BTW jury nullification is not illegal.

I'd say you owe Darwin1 a hearty "touche!" for the "Jesus as criminal" reference, Bill. After all, a lawbreaker IS a lawbreaker, right? ;~)

Contraband manufacturing and distribution requires an organization, TheKai. A criminal organization. Whether you wish to concede or deny that your supply of marijuana comes from such an organization is irrelevant since they do sell a lot of marijuana to someone. But like I wrote before, you may not see the gangs behind the people you buy marijuana from because you don’t care to. You don’t know who is behind your marijuana dealer. You want to believe that there aren’t any hard core drug gangs there but you don’t know that for a fact. If you were to ask your dealer who he buys from, could you really trust his answer? If he is controlled by a gang, would he feel free to answer such a question? Obviously not. Those drug gangs make a lot of money selling marijuana. Someone is buying it from them. How can you be sure it’s not you? And if you're not sure, are you still willing to buy marijuana knowing that your money may very well be funding those murderous gangs?

That's an interesting analogy Darwin1, but it has a flaw. Christ wasn't nailed to the cross for blaspheme. When He was crucified, they tacked up a sign above His head that read in 3 different languages, "King of the Jews". The charge Pilate settled for to satisfy the crowd so that he could legally execute Christ was treason.

The Anabaptists and others did in fact relocate so that they could practice their faith legally. Are you suggesting that the marijuana users relocate out of the country to practice their beliefs legally, too?

Here’s a quote from a famous “dimwit” that might interest some people.
“No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we ask him to obey it. Obedience to the law is demanded as a right; not asked as a favor.” Theodore Roosevelt
Whether a law is just or not is a matter of opinion. That’s why obedience is compulsory, especially where a means to change the law is available as it is here in our country since opinions are subjected to personal biases such as the ones exhibited by marijuana users. As such, those who advocate that marijuana laws are unjust while demanding the right to break them seem to me to have a conflict of interest that clouds their judgment. Do we put much credence in the legal opinions of criminals about the legality of the laws they refuse to obey? Do we excuse them from obedience when they insist it’s not fair? Like Teddy says, obedience to the law is demanded, and rightfully so since there is an available means to change it.
Calling a law unjust seems less reasonable when it comes from people that call those who disagree “dimwitted”.

I agree illegal is illegal. Jesus was charged and found guilty of the illegal act of blaspheme. Nail'em to a cross: illegal is illegal.

Anabaptists had to leave their countries of origin for America because they were illegally performing their own marriages.

Claiming something is wrong because it is illegal is the most dimwitted argument in the world. It assumes all laws are just when they are not.

or as i like to point out...pseudo intelligent adults;)

Kid--you may be right on that! It is clear that when you are worked up, your supporters get worked up as well. Sometimes to the point of going to far. And same thing on the other side of the coin--as your 'opponents' get worked up, their supporters get worked up and so on. It lowers the value of an honest debate. It becomes a bitch session, personal attack rather than what was intended as a point-counterpoint debate between intelligent adults

good posts both. to localguy: thats why i let 'my army' do a lot of the talking:) maybe it is actually i who LEADS the snippy comments rather than i who follows them:) well said gentleman.

blood: i will keep you updated on my city council mission and thank you for any help you have gettin me in the door

The sad thing here is you say you don't trust a professional who uses marijuana, because it says something about their character. If they are willing to break that law, what other laws will they break? This circles right back to how wrong the law is. If the law is, shoot all Jews on site, are you a bad person for showing some compassion? I know that's an extreme example, but in a world where black is black and white is white, it is essentially the same. The laws says marijuana is bad. I whole-heartedly disagree. Does that make me a bad person? No, and it doesn't make those other professionals bad people either.

You say they are taking such a big risk? Are they really taking a big risk? It is very rare for the casual user to ever get caught. Even if the user is caught, the first time offense will not garner a terrible punishment. Furthermore, in many jurisdictions for a small amount of marijuana, it's little more than the equivalent of a parking ticket.

I advise again, please take off the blinders and try to look at this from a neutral stand point. No one is saying you are wrong for completely disagreeing with putting intoxicants in your own body. At the same time, no one wants you to tell them they are wrong for using marijuana every now and then.

billnewbie,
Your statements about marijuana users supporting gangs and drug cartels are just inaccurate. Concede a point every now and then, it will allow you to have a better understanding of all things in life. Hey, I don't want to start using names or get too much into this; if this were a court room I'd cite the fifth amendment. Let's say my friend Greg, who is just like me in every way possible, is in a unique situation. His family is heavily involved in the upper ranks of certain prominent gangs in the area. Greg also has very close friends who's families are involved in some rival gangs, from leadership positions down to foot soldiers. So, Greg has a really good picture of this gang violence in the area that you speak of. Now, of course Greg knows you aren't talking about just the area, but the whole U.S. and our neighbors. The fact is, though, that these gangs Greg is quite familiar with are very far reaching.
Take Greg's word for it. It is far over-stated that marijuana users are supporting gang violence and/or terrorism. There are so many customers in the area, gangs don't compete for business. That's not how it's run out here. The stuff you see in movies simply is not how it goes down. Trust Greg, Greg knows.

You say the difference is people who drink alcohol don't give money to drunk drivers? How many people go to the bar and buy their buddy a drink when he or she really shouldn't have another? It happens more often than you think. I agree with you, two wrongs don't make a right. That's why I said you have great logic, when you picked apart all of those arguments previously. Your ignorance has put a blindfold over your eyes, though. You were completely unable to look at the situation from an objectional point of view. I asked you to argue why marijuana should stay legal (supposing it is already legal and they are trying to criminalize it.) Instead of producing even a weak argument, you simply said you can find no reason. Apparently you also support gangs having control over the black market. Apparently you also support deregulation. Apparently, you would rather it be a demon weed than a mild drug. Take off the blinders, try to make yourself neutral, reassess the situation.

No one turns on, tunes in, and drops out these days. Those days have long since passed. Is today better than the 60s and 70s? Oh yeah it is. One shining example, we have the internet. Assassinations aren't happening all over the place. Right now, this very moment, we aren't arguing about the civil rights that all black people should enjoy. We're talking about a silly and similarly racist law that keeps us from enjoying an herb legally.

You can talk until you are blue in the face but you will not reach the mind of a stoner..... They are in their own mind the most intelligent and most informed individuals when it comes to their weed. the thing here is weed is illegal and aginst the law to possess and sell So whatever they choose to say in here as to their usage is illegal and thats the facts. All people will evevtually fall to their illegal activities as no one is above the law tho they think they are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Do you think the cartels and gang murders would stop??" if everyone in America stopped smoking marijuana, the Kid asks. No, but at least your hands would be clean of it. It's silly of you to deny that you support those criminal networks. You don't know what's behind your dealer and he wouldn't tell you if you asked, not that you would since you don't want to know.

BLOOD singing off, until the next occassion. Kid, good luck with your presentation, I sent my comments. Remember- a friend with weed is a friend indeed and a friend with grass is a friend that lasts...party on Garth!

Societies today are no more or less immoral than in the past; there is nothing new under the sun! It might have been better hidden in the past, but there has always been a strong element of immorality in the United States and every other society. That's what get preachers into trouble, they start preaching against all the immorality and the next thing they're right in the middle of it themselves. Start judging other people and the next thing you know the big finger of judgement is pointing right back at you!!! Most everything we do in life is selfish, the clothes you wear, the way you cut your hair, the car you drive, all are signs of self expression and therefore selfish in definition. You may not choose to ever be intoxicated and that is morally right for your life, but as soon as you start to overlay your morality upon someone else you start to selfishly believe that your way is the only right way! Because I smoke marijuana then my opinions and counsel as a professional have no value? That's BS Bill! As my friend Bob said, "The enemy I see wears a cloak of decency, all non-believers and men-stealers talking in the name of religion!" Or to put it in the terms of the only Perfect one to walk this Earth, "You are like a white-washed tomb; outside you appear clean and white, but inside is deadman's bones and there is nothing good in you!" You see, Bill, getting high doesn't mark a man any more than drinking a drink makes you a drunkard. It's not what goes into a man, but what comes out that makes a man what he truly is. I choose peace, love, compassion, grace, mercy, forgiveness, understanding, tolerance and to catch a buzz every once and a while. That's the man I choose to be...

BILLNEWBIE- So what I'm understanding from your posts is that you NEVER break ANY law? You go exactly the speed limit all the time? If you drive on the expressways in the Chicago area you drive at 55 MPH? You have No vices in your life? You are completly moral on Every occassion and in Every action? Never lose your temper or act out in anger? Never lust? Not obese?

i PROMISE you there are more marijuana dealers in this town than liquor licenses

actually billnewbie...if you would read all my posts, ive posted NUMEROUS times that a majority of pot smokers 'catch buzzes' as compared to get high. i smoke pot every day but get high once or twice a week. still immoral?? cant understand how that can be?? thats because you are preaching about a drug youve never once ingested.

i appreciate the convo as always...but your insistence that i support some criminal network is silly billnewbie. you notice i never join a religous convo for more than a post or two?? thats cuz i dont know enough about it to form a valid opinion. you can judge us for getting 'intoxicated' and post the thoughts but when you talk about gangs, and killings that we support....well mr newbie you really have no idea what you are talking about and you obviously have no idea how many people sell marijuana in this country. that is the fear monger side of the marijuana scene and quite frankly my dear...just not reality. you are invited to come with me next time if you want when i get a bag. i think you would mess yo pants if you saw who i get mine from. you may think my alcohol scenario is silly, and admittedly it is, but so is your theory that us lowly pot smokers support the mexican cartel. if you got everyone in america to stop smoking marijuana...do you think the cartels and gang murders would stop??

It's not so much a religious point of view as it is a moral point of view, Kid. Being intoxicated is a complete waste of time and resources. It can do great physical harm to the intoxicated and it makes them physically and emotionally unstable, even dangerous. One doesn't get intoxicated for any useful purpose. It's done for selfish reasons alone. That's why it's referred to as a vice. What's morally neutral about using intoxicants is if you don't do so to become intoxicated, like having a glass of wine with your dinner. I doubt that anyone who uses marijuana does so in this way. But for a medical purpose, marijuana use would be neutral as well should it ever be legal for that purpose.

That’s an interesting equivocation you’ve put forth, Kid. If one doesn’t support the banning of alcoholic beverages, one must be in favor of drunk driving. So those who then support drunk driving have no standing to challenge marijuana users for supporting murderous drug gangs. Aside from the fact that 2 wrongs don’t make a right, those who don’t oppose alcohol do not give money to drunk drivers so that they can buy cars and kill people like marijuana users give money to their dealers who then buy guns. It’s not like drunk drivers are trying to run each other over in the streets for control of the drinking trade. That equivocation seems like an act of desperation.

You say that you get you illegal marijuana from Canada and not from the Mexican cartel? Who do you think smuggles the marijuana over the border? Who buys it from the grower? Who sells it to your dealer who you think wouldn’t hurt a fly (unless you owe him money). You think that all that happens outside of the notice of American drug dealing gangs? If so, be very careful when you buy your next package. If the gangs have found out about your dealer’s operation, you wouldn’t want to get caught in the crossfire. They won’t care if you do. But chances are, your dealer is part of the drug gangs’ network, you just don’t know it. And you probably don’t care, which is the saddest part of all.

Yes I would pass judgment on the judgment of any professional that uses marijuana. I don’t want to hire anyone who has such poor judgment that they are willing to risk so much for so little. What is it about a professional that makes them a professional? What do we hire them for? Their judgment. You don’t go to a doctor or a lawyer just for what he knows but for advice and council. You wouldn’t want the council of a person that knowingly breaks the law since that exhibits a lack of respect for the law and poor judgment. What other laws do they feel they need not respect? Similarly, you wouldn’t want to hire a professional who gets drunk all the time either, even though it’s legal, because that's a sign of poor judgment too.

Yes, Blood, modern day American society’s future does seem grim. It’s especially grim when the response that so many have is to "Turn on, tune in, drop out". When everything seems to be on the fast track to destruction, mellowing out is hardly the thing to do, in my opinion.

From my perspective, thekid3477, you and Billnewbie share far more similarities than differences.

localguy:are you the evil love child of localboy and justaguy??...haha jk:)...for real i appreciate your comments. i sorta enjoy gettin snippy tho. i dont sit here and do this bitterly, i sit here and do this with a smile on my face the whole time. i am an individual, like a lot in this area, who is full of wit and sarcasm. my downfall is that doesnt come thru in text and i end up looking angry and bitter. while the law DOES anger me, the individuals who continue to discuss this with me do not. they are a key part of the debate. the truth is anyone whose opinion i may sway with my marijuana/cannabis/hemp beliefs stops reading after 20 posts or so:) those that keep reading will get my message regardless of the words i type. like i said, i do appreciate your comments and ill try to keep that in mind, but ive sorta reconciled the fact that thekid3477 may come off as a pompous arrogant jerk at times. thats not ME so it doesnt bother me:) i agree that mr newbie is an eloquent speaker, and have stated that before. i think he preaches do not judge and smothers his posts in judgements, but whatayagunnado?? good day.

for any supporters reading this. gary storck, wi chapter of norml prez has dubbed wednesday january 20th as medical marijuana lobby day in honor of mary powers, an activist who passed away last fall. meet in the rotunda at noon to lobby on foot or please make a call to your representatives. we want to bombard the telephone. email me any questions!! peace....

Thank you localguy, I appreciate the compliments.

For people sick of the marijuana legalization debat and a blog that is talking about the real truth here, check out the Lake Geneva Regional Website blog and post your thoughts.

http://www.lakegenevanews.net/Articles-i...

Mr Newbie--STANDING OVATION! BRAVO SIR! No matter which side of the issue any of you are on, that is how you debate a subject. No name calling, etc just a well thought out post.

Kid--as the undeniable 'leader' of your crusade I encourage you to speak your mind. YOUR mind being the key. DO NOT rely on others or their posts to help you state your case. I am not, repeat am not, calling out your supporters as I am quite sure they are as passionate about the issue as you are. BUT, what I see when I read these long posts is that as your supporters become more vocal, you become more vocal. As their posts get more snippy and personal (not the words I would have liked to use), yours do as well. I understand your 'movement' needs support but do yourself a huge favor and simply continue to post educated, non confrontaional thoughts/facts. Those on your side will still follow you.

Bill why is it immoral to be intoxicated?

those professionals dont tell you billnewbie because you would pass judgement on them. guess what, they tell me. they tell blood. mostly because i tell them first. ive smoked with teachers(i actually know more than a handful of teachers who like to toke), college professors, service men, nurses, asst DA, business owners, salesmen, mechanics, construction workers and a few other professions that are escaping me. are you saying, you dont judge people, but all those people are morally wrong??

"Whether we can legally waste our time and our lives intoxicated with this intoxicant or that intoxicant really isn’t the issue"

with all due respect mr newbie. that is EXACTLY the issue. duh.

"neither they nor you are morally right to be intoxicated"

a)that is your extremely religous p.o.v. lots of people who drink alcohol or smoke pot would disagree with you. when you say we are not 'morally right', isnt that a judgement?? and 2) didnt you concede at one point that if legal smoking marijuana would be 'morally neutral'?? and now were not 'morally right'?? ive stated before, i KNOW mine comes from canada where it is essentially de-criminalized an nothing close to a mexican cartel. you can blame anyone who smokes marijuana for the senseless murders but thats akin to blaming anyone who drinks for all the drunk driving deaths. and while im aware this isnt the seven signs of kevin bacon, that would mean that next time you enjoy some of the 'blood of christ' you will be supporting drunk drivin?? why do you support drunk driving billnewbie?? sounds silly and pretty un christian like. there are def better things you could supprort w your time.

heres info on the toxicity levels of the big bad marijuana plant

Toxicity is virtually nonexistent in natural marijuana. The toxicity levels of cannabis compounds are estimated at 40,000, meaning that a subject would have to ingest 40,000 times the regular dose to induce death. that means billnewbie, that if one joint gets you high...you would have to ingest 40,000 of them to die. not. possible.

BILLNEWBIE- You describe a pretty grim picture of our modern day society that, quite frankly, I think is not realistic. Bastard children roaming the streets, men and women living in fornication, drunkards and drugs addicts exchanging everything just for another fix; you must be talking about France! You need to light up a doobie and mellow out man. I do hire professionals that partake and I know many fine ones that do their job just fine. I wouldn't vote for a politician who didn't smoke pot in college!!! How unreal would it be for someone in the 60's or 70's to go through college and never try marijuana. They must be a liar or some kind of social misfit! No BILL, as my friend Bob said, "The times they are a changing." We smoke, we toke and we vote and the big political pendelum is swinging back our way. Better get on board and ride before it roles you right over!!!

SNAZZY- I appreciate your comments and your support, but don't be duped to think smoking marijuana is any where close to as dangerous as drinking alcohol. If you look at the stats just for domestic violence or traffic fatalities you'll see there is a HUGE difference between the effects. Also, I hate to sound hypocritical, but most of my marijuana smoking friends are in favor of no cigarette smoking in bars. Afterall, cigarettes WILL kill you!

The hypothetical you posed, TheKai, was to “ask yourself why it should be -illegal-.” Marijuana not having any redeeming qualities is an argument for it to not be legal. If there were such a hypothetical push to make marijuana illegal, the fact that it has no redeeming qualities other than a limited medical one would make the push difficult to argue with other than on the medical use grounds. But, since the opposite is true, those same medical use grounds are at the forefront of the push to make marijuana use legal since there is little else to argue in favor thereof.

I would say that since marijuana and alcohol intoxication has no purpose other than a limited medical one, that it also has no place on any list of needs aside from that.

What control do you imagine is exerted on alcohol use? If a person wants to drink themselves to death, who intervenes? No one. If a person wants to spend the rent and food money on shots and beer, who stops them? Again no one. You may say that marijuana use is less detrimental that is alcohol use. But until it’s legal and used on the same scale as alcohol is, we really don’t know how detrimental the legalization of marijuana will be. That seems to be a risk that marijuana’s fans are willing to take. Now all you have to do is convince the rest of us. Calling us names and belittling our concerns is no way to win friends and influence people. (That last statement isn’t meant for you personally, TheKai)

Yes, Blood, we do have an ageing hippy population who have already affected many changes both in law and in moral choices. Unfortunately, many have caused a great deal of harm. At one time there were taboos and even laws against promiscuity. Those who became pregnant out-of-wedlock along with the boyfriend were social pariahs. That’s changed. Now the streets of our large cities are filled with undisciplined gangs of children who have no father and may not even know who he was. Adultery was once illegal but now it is so commonplace that those who don’t indulge in it seem to be outnumbered by those who do. Yes, this hippy generation has affected many changes and will no doubt affect a few more. The real question is will our civilization survive these “enlightenments”. So far, things aren’t looking too good.

Yes, alcohol prohibition is comparable to marijuana prohibition. Did we “come to our senses” all those years ago? No, we simply acknowledged the futility of a law that was so very unpopular. Sobriety as a goal was never thought to be a bad idea. But it was unrealistic to dictate it by law. Marijuana laws may yet become unpopular enough for us to throw up our hands yet again and change the law. But sobriety is still the better than intoxication, particularly habitual or addictive intoxication.

It may serve your purposes to claim that I suppose that all marijuana users are deadbeat losers. But that’s not so. I do claim that all marijuana users have impaired judgment by their desire to have marijuana that leads them to risk so much to have their drug. The fact is that they hide their use since they wouldn’t be in good standing if their use was known. It’s easy to say that many “professionals” indulge in the use of marijuana since no names are mentioned, but I wonder, how many would risk all they’ve invested to attain what they have become just to get stoned? Who would hire such a “professional” that takes such irresponsible risks? Who would trust the judgment of a “professional” like that? No wonder they hide their marijuana use!

Kid, that judgment and condemnation you feel isn’t mine, that’s from your own conscience. I’m pointing out the errancy of your rationalizations and that they are merely self-serving contrivances meant to justify what cannot otherwise be justified, such as funding drug gangs. I’m not your judge or your jury. I’m just the voice of one calling in the wilderness that your rationalizations are blinding you to the harm you are helping to cause by breaking the law and funding drug gangs. Change it if you can but obey the law until you do. Stop being a party to the evils that drug gangs do.

Whether we can legally waste our time and our lives intoxicated with this intoxicant or that intoxicant really isn’t the issue. Having a right to do something does not mean it’s right to do. Even drunks and addicts know this intuitively. That’s why they always have a ready list of excuses for what they do. The first step toward sobriety is to expose the self-serving rationalizations for what they are. You have a right to be drunk or, if you can legalize marijuana, stoned. But it’s harmful for you and for the people that depend on you. Those are the victims of this “victimless” activity whether legal or not. So yes, it’s hypocritical for drunks to oppose the legalization of marijuana, but neither they nor you are morally right to be intoxicated.

It was stated that marijuana is not toxic. Now it’s restated as not being “fatally” toxic. Well, toxic means poisonous. Ingest enough and a fatality will occur. It may be unrealistic for anyone to ingest enough marijuana to die from it, but it is possible. And like with any toxin, the smaller you are, the less it takes.

Hey Holly, I guess it is illegal to go green.

Such huge drug busts lately. It's rather ironic. I wonder if anyone has put two and two together that they are all ratting each other out for a lighter sentence. Fair warning to the pot farmers out there....law enforcement may be knocking on your door soon! Now if they could do the same for the herion dealers, I might actually be impressed with the drug enforcement task force.

i wish i had the ability to write like that kai. obviously kai and kid are not one in the same:)...contrary to blind ignorant assumptions. you make my writing look like that old hannah that use to troll around hatin on pot users ONLY cuz it was illegal.....:)

Frogger,
I do not mind that you performed the thought experiment I asked billnewbie to do. In fact, I encourage everyone to perform the thought experiment. I would like to say to you though, what are you basing your information on? Specifically, that marijuana growers would sell more than just marijuana. Do the liquor stores not adhere to controlled substance laws that are already in place? Why would a legal marijuana grower or dispenser be different?

better said than i blood. thank you for your efforts back in the day. ive described it as you guys trying to open the peanut butter jar only to have the new generation come by and pop the top off...courtesy of the internets of course:)...but thank you all the same.

billnewbie,
Please excuse me if I have misinterpreted your last post (the one that starts with medical use being okay for those who need it.) As I understand, it seems you have completed the thought experiment. I am not sure why you were searching for redeeming qualities of marijuana if it is already considered legal, though.

Several people will agree that spending life intoxicated, by any means, is a waste. In terms of productivity, I think when directed at marijuana or alcohol that rings very true. If we take a look at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, it is certainly valid to say that marijuana or alcohol are not on the most basic or secondary level of needs. However, I believe they would fall into either the third level (love/belonging) or maybe the fourth level (esteem).

Obviously every person is different, and thus the needs, wants, and goals of a group of people will also have a degree of variance. While you are perfectly happy without intoxicating yourself, billnewbie, not everyone shares that view point. Alcohol and other drugs are indeed usually detrimental to the body and society in terms of short term effects. What we have seen in the past, though, is that it's far more detrimental to society (and thus our health indirectly) to try to outlaw access to the aforementioned vices.

If we try to look at this from a scientific view point, I believe we would come to the conclusion that we must not try to prevent all use of mind or body altering substances, but limit the use in a manner so that we have the greatest control while minimizing damage and threat. If anyone could buy heroin from virtually any store they wanted to, with nothing more than the money they use to purchase it, we would probably have a big problem with heroin addicts. Luckily for us, it is difficult enough to manufacture and harmful enough to scare people that keeping heroin illegal does not seem to have as detrimental an effect as making it legal and available would. For alcohol, this was clearly not the case. For marijuana, this is also not the case.

We should consider what bad effects might come from legalizing marijuana, then compare them to the bad effects that have come from criminalizing it. I believe that any reasonable and rational being will be able to surmise that it is far more dangerous to keep marijuana illegal than to just legalize it.

Regardless of your personal beliefs on whether or not people should "let loose" as they might say, it is known that we have to allow the opportunity through our own venues, rather than let some things remain unregulated and uncontrollable. In short, if you can't control it when it's illegal, try controlling it when its legal. It worked with alcohol, and I believe it will work with marijuana.

billnewbie: proving once again the hypocrisy spilled from the church. "It’s a pity that so many view intoxication as acceptable recreation. What a terrible waste" couple questions...why do christians feel its ok to judge and then condemn others when they do?? have you EVER smoked marijuana??

lets say you are right and any intoxification is a complete waste of our time and life. that doesnt even come close to answering why we can legally waste our life/time with a drug that kills thousands a year and we cant legally do that with a drug that doesnt kill thousands a year.

it may not be equivilant civil rights but make no mistake billnewbie it SHOULD BE MY RIGHT TO SMOKE MARIJUANA. it doesnt matter to you so you dont feel violated but there are millions of annual smokers who do. i cant legally do in my home what millions others do with a dift form of intoxicant. thats ignorance and hypocrisy.

let me clarify for the simple minds. marijuana is not, never has been, and never will be FATALLY toxic.

jvldss: you should do some research. we are way closer to legal marijuana than we were back in the 70's. 14(thanx NJ) medical marijuana states. 4 states discussing LEGAL/REGULATED marijuana...ONE VOTED OUT OF COMMITTEE. the information/message has spread ten fold because of the internet. you will see the federal govt remove their claws in this decade.

No, JVLDSS, I buy mine from the friendly farmer man who doesn't even own a gun and doesn't have a violent bone in his body. You say nothing has changed legally since the 70's when I also lobbied for changing the law? You'd have a hard time proving that statement in California or many of the other states that HAVE changed their laws pertaining to medical marijuana use. Even our federal government has changed the "jack-booted" policies of the former administrations by an executive order telling the DEA to no longer interfere with a state's right to legislate medical marijuana use. Even our own state is likely to pass legislation allowing the use of medical marijuana this year and the Governor has already said that he would sign it into law!

BILLNEWBIE- We have an aging hippie population who are now entering into the generation of political control; I think you'll see a lot more positive movement on the issue of legalizing medicinal and recreational use of marijuana. As for the rest of your argument, it's BS! The comparisons I made to our historical experiences of slavery and a women's right to vote was because of American society has the obligation to correct the ills of previous generations and those are examples of when we have. Legalizing marijuana use is clearly comparable to when we prohibited the use of alcohol and then came back to our senses. Even if don't smoke it yourself you must see some striking parallels to the futility of prohibition. As I said before, it would serve your purpose to suppose that all marijuana users are deadbeat losers, but you'd be suprised how many people you may know, professionals in good community status, are also partakers of the evil weed. The tide is turning and it's time to put a stop to the BS!

billnewbie- it has been proven there aren't any victims. haha Those indirect victims don't count you know!

Kai- those legally selling pot would never sell more than just pot. yea sure. Sorry you didn't ask me.

From a medical standpoint, marijuana should be legal for all who need it, emphasis on need. For every other prospective use I can find no redeeming qualities for marijuana. Spending time intoxicated is a waste of the precious time and the life we have been given. That’s true no matter what you choose to intoxicate yourself with. And since it is a waste of time and life, it is also a waste of money and the additional time it takes a person to earn it, particularly when one considers the more appropriate uses that money and time could be put to. It’s a pity that so many view intoxication as acceptable recreation. What a terrible waste!

billnewbie,
Your logic, sir, is indeed astounding :-). You are obviously a wise person, and strikingly different from justaguy. You seem to have your head screwed on really tightly, and I think you deserve all the credit you get.

That being said, can you do a thought experiment for me, please? What I would like you to do is apply the same logic, but instead of asking why marijuana should be -legal-, ask yourself why it should be -illegal-. In order to properly perform this thought experiment, I need you to pretend that marijuana is currently already legal, and there is a push to criminalize it.

For the purposes of allowing the readers the opportunity to see the results of your experiment, can you please log it as a blog on this story, in the same format that you have already used to argue that marijuana should stay illegal?

Of course, if you do not want to do this or do not have the time that is understandable. I am only asking a favor, that is all. If you wish not to do the thought experiment, feel free to say no. There are no known side-effects to this experiment. Unfortunately, there is also no monetary compensation. Enlightenment of yourself and others will be the only pay received.

Thank you for your time and efforts.

Here’s a reason why marijuana users should reconsider obeying this law. The people you buy your drugs from are dangerous criminals whom you support with your purchases. They kill each other to defend their right to serve you, and they are often poor marksmen who miss their targets and kill the innocent. They are so callous that they open fire without concern for where their missed shots hit.

I have written in the past that those of you who violate this law are well aware that the people you buy it from are prone to violence and murder. Many blame that need to deal with the violent prone to obtain marijuana on the law and the government that enforces it. The government isn't funding these organized crime gangs, you are. They aren't killing each other and anyone who happens to get in the way due to the law, they do it to protect or obtain your business. So the next time you buy marijuana remember, the money you just handed over may very well be used to purchase a bullet that kills an innocent child sleeping in his bed. In response I’ve been told that because of the government, marijuana users are FORCED to buy from such people. Really? What forces you? You’re craving for marijuana, perhaps? Maybe marijuana is more addictive that its users are willing to admit. Maybe marijuana use causes users to rationalize any excuse necessary to justify their actions rather that face accountability for what they have enabled, violence in the streets.

Put down your pipes, put out that joint, get sober and reflect on what you are helping to cause with the money you spend.

OK let me see if I've got all this straight.

Marijuana should be legal so those who want to use it have no obligation to obey the law because wife beating used to be legal. So, wife beating justifies marijuana use? What a strange comment.

Marijuana should be legal so those who want to use it have no obligation to obey the law because race discrimination used to also be legal. Marijuana use is equivalent to basic civil rights? Do marijuana users have to sit at the back of the bus, drink from water fountains labeled “stoners only” and live only in areas designated for them alone? That rationale strains credulity.

Marijuana should be legal so those who want to use it have no obligation to obey the law because during alcohol prohibition, people didn’t obey that law either. So their unlawfulness justifies marijuana users? Relativism can justify anything.

Marijuana should be legal so those who want to use it have no obligation to obey the law because 2.2 million people are already in jail in America so we shouldn’t punish those who won’t obey this law since it’s a waste of money that we could be using towards the education and welfare of our children. So what limits should be placed on the size of the jail population? Isn’t the size of the jail population in direct proportion to how many people disobey the law? Since most non-violent drug users are offered plea bargains that get them very little jail time if any, that argument seems senseless to me in this context.

Marijuana should be legal so those who want to use it have no obligation to obey the law because marijuana is non-toxic. Isn’t the purpose of using marijuana to get intoxicated? You can’t get intoxicated on a substance that isn’t toxic.

Marijuana should be legal so those who want to use it have no obligation to obey the law because other illegal drugs are dangerous as are the people that deal them so the police and courts shouldn’t waste time and resources on marijuana and its dealers. Do marijuana dealers only deal marijuana? That’s a myth. Ask your marijuana dealer if he can get you something stronger and see what he says. You’re lying to yourself if you think he can’t or won’t.

blood" I still don't condemn them because they hurt NO ONE with their occupation"
I am sure mom doesn't care they trashed her house.
No cartel but they make enough to live on.

All of these same arguments for legalization were waged back in the 70s when I was in college and now, 40 years later, there has been no change to the laws at all. All of the arguments for legalization are just as valid today as they were then but, right, wrong or indifferent, the majority of people and their law makers will not support the legalization arguments.

perfectly said blood. i look forward to enjoying some smoke with you!!

anyone know why the lights were out at lions quick mart on hwy14 last night

LGMOM- I understand your viewpoint on what these parents did to their children. They are obviously from a different culture than you and do not view what they were doing as morally wrong. I do agree they were foolish with their open posture, but like I said before, most of these kind of growers are only providing to their friends and acquaintances, not making millions like the cartels. The evidence that was taken proves that clearly. I've been open with my kids about my choice to smoke marijuana and they seem to respect that openness. Only one child, now an adult, has chosen to use marijuana and I have had serious conversations with him about moderation, balance and the current legalities concerning usage. The same conversations I have had with my children concerning alcohol usage. Although I don't want any of my children to drive impaired, I would much rather have them drive "high" than drunk, any day! So, like most things in life, it's more a question of moderation and avoiding extremes. Growing 159 plants in the middle of Lake Geneva in someone else's house with license plates that announced it qualifies as extreme to me. I still don't condemn them because they hurt NO ONE with their occupation, or no more than the bartender who serves a drink across the bar. Heck, I've probably smoked some of their product in the past and I was thankful I didn't have to support some Mexican or Columbian cartel just to have some to smoke. This is about balance and spending our tax dollars on things that really make a difference in our community! It’s about respecting a culture, although maybe different than yours, which uses marijuana recreationally. They are doctors, lawyers, teachers, business owners, skilled tradesmen, clergy, etc. Putting these people in jail, spending all the tax money to prosecute them and house them will do absolutely NOTHING to make Lake Geneva safer or to stop the real threat of crime.

justaguy- I know this is a public forum, but I hope you didn't think I was addressing any of my logical comments to you. You have made yourself clear that you see this issue through the ignorance of your arguments and not the reality of history, culture and realistic comparisons. Why the current prohibition against marijuana doesn't register a clear comparison to the prohibition of alcohol in our past is astonishing to me and many others. It is because of the ignorance of your type of argument that slaves were treated as non-humans, chattel to be bought, sold, traded and abused. It is because of the ignorance of your argument that women were denied the right to vote until the last century. Your ignorance would be laughable if it didn't reflect the many other ignorant people in our society who can woof down their prescription drugs, alcohol and food, but yet judge smoking marijuana as evil! Just so you can be sure, if I ever post on this issue I am not directing my comments toward you or people with similar ignorance. I'm speaking to progressive, fair-minded, open-minded fellow citizens who can realize that the injustice of marijuana prohibition, and all it parallels to the prohibition of alcohol, has done nothing to stop illegal drug use in our society except make the cartels richer and subject normally law-abiding citizens to arrest, incarceration and devastation. It is high time it ends!!!

jvldss: have you ever used any of those drugs?? if you had or even if you used half your brain to know what those other drugs do to the user vs what pot does to the user you would know the answer to your question.

It seems that some posters are arguing that because pot is a plant it should be legal to grow, use and traffic.
Does that mean that heroin, a derivative of the opium poppy plant should also be legal. How about cocaine which comes from the leaves of a coca plant? Peyote comes from a cactus, a plant.
Why should one plant be legal, but not the others?

Rock County will respond with a slap on the wrist. Lucky for these people they live where they do. If you want to commit a crime, Rock County is the place to do it. Do it anywhere else and you face a prison term.

blood: I think it's you that needs to get real here, I guess you forget what happened to those people that ate the pot brownies that moron brought into work? You really think kids wouldn't eat parts of the plant? Oh wait .. them drinking alcohol is your "lets make pot legal" rant right? Wake up ... and they wonder why people call them Dope heads ....

ha. why didnt you just say that to begin with?? coulda saved us some time;)

ok, so pot should be legal! Great, we've come to an agreement. However, at this point IT'S NOT so THEY PUT THEIR CHILDREN IN JEAPORDY!
THAT is what THIS is about! Way to go LG MOM!!! Couldn't agree more with your comments!

myself and numerous other posters care if marijuana should or should not be legal. we refuse to blindly accept that 'its illegal so thats the way it is'. this guy should have had the option to do this legit. HE DIDNT HAVE THAT OPTION. but he would if he wanted to serve adults alcohol?? WHAT?? to put free adult american citizens in jail for growing a plant and providing other adult american citizens with that plant, even if that plant gets you high, is a travesty. not one adult citizen should spend one expletive minute without their freedom for doing something THAT IS COMPLETELY LEGAL IN LIQUID FORM. we americans have the RIGHT to do things to our body as we wish. smoking pot. growing pot. selling pot to adults has been legal in this country for ALOT more years than its been illegal. it was made illegal off mis information and race. thats not my theory. THATS HISTORY. i have no doubt it will be legal again soon. to much money being left on the table and to many greedy corporations with high priced lobbyist who the reps DO listen to. join my team or ignore me all together but the truth is my team wont stop. thanx to the internets we are as close as weve been. ive said before its a snowball rolling downhill to legalization and there just arent enough people left who care enough to stop the ball...let alone roll it back up hill...

Not had a job in two years, try hardly ever! this is a small town, this guy has made his living this way for years and years and years and everyone knows it.

Obviously this genius and his wife didn't think a bit about the young children they are raising, or they'd have gotten jobs making a legal living. Now the kids have to know the police have to take their parents away. A family member, who likely has a family of their own, has to welcome more children because these two adults can't make good and responsible life decisions. Grow up, better yet, don't have kids.

SERIOUSLY PEOPLE...THE ISSUE HERE IS THE FACT THAT IT IS ILLEGAL!! PERIOD! AND THEY PUT THEMSELVES BEFORE THEIR CHILDREN! IT'S SICK! AND NOW THE KIDS SUFFER!
Who cares about whether or not marijuana SHOULD be legal...IT'S NOT!!!

job status is irrelevant...and actually only helps my side. how many people in this area wouldnt mind the chance to make a couple thousand dollars a month growing marijuana?? TRY to calculate the income tax, sales tax, money we spend, and any other revenue that may be generated from legal marijuana. what number do you come up with?? pretty sick huh??

moldy?? regulate it.

kids?? regulate it.

income tax evasion?? regulate it.

basic american RIGHTS returned to citizens?? regulate it.

see?? the answer to your problems are the same as the answer to our problem.

frogger-The house is his mom's. From what I beleive, she did not know what they were doing in there. She now has a home infested with mold.

http://www.lakegenevanews.net/Articles-i...

kid-They were doing this to make a living. Neither of them have had jobs in years.

blood: my appearance is 5'10 1/2". blue eyes, like the sea ive been told;), and a lean buck 60 on the scale. curly, hempseed conditioned hair and the standard issue hippie beard:). oh wait, you meant my appearance in front of janesvilles city counsel to ask them to stop arresting adults in the city for simple possession;) got it. emails on the way...

frogger. YOU brought up the kids as victims and then when blood asks you a question you revert to the most simple of answers. both are illegal for kids. no blank sherlock. one is not legal for adults. thats the problem. why are you so worried about someone elses house?? or are you just being a typical anti-potter and looking, SEARCHING for ANY reason to justify your point??

kid-I wrote "become totally legal, like cigs you still wont be able to grow your own"
sorry I missed a comma. I didn't say you couldn't grow tobacco.
I am done with this pot issue.
Still unanswered questions about wreaking somebodies home or do you think the home has no issues with 160 plants growing in it? It isn't a greenhouse with special ventilation.

Yes kids get a hold of alcohol as well. They are BOTH illegal for kids to have. Have a good night Kid.

Kid , send me your email, I'm interested in discussing your appearance.
______________________________________

For those concerned with their kids eating the pot I think it's far more possible that they would open a bottle of alcohol to try it. What do you think would be more harmful, a child choking down a green pot plant or a glass of tequila? Get real.........

your other assinine opinion is 'Kid seemed to imply that would NEVER happen(kids getting pot in school)'

i didnt imply that. your comprehension skills are lacking. i have NO DOUBT pot gets into the schools. easier than alcohol cuz the drug dealer doesnt ask for identification. my point was that if thats a concern to someone, then why havent we banned alcohol?? thats all over our schools and unlike marijuana...actually killing our kids...

heres the text of the bill. 12 plants or 3 ounces of dried/processed marijuana PER PERSON.

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/2009/data/A...

frogger. with all due respect you should stick with other storys to post on. the 12 plants per person is WRITTEN IN THE JACKI RICKERT MEDICAL MARIJUANA ACT. as far as i know, every state that has medical marijuana allows 'caregivers' to grow for patients. those are licensed citizens...just like these people. so, while you are welcome to your opinion, your opinion does not trump fact. 12 plants per person. if i have 10 people who i am 'caregiver' for i will LEGALLY be allowed to grow 120 plants. again, no offense, but who do you think knows more about the possible medical law, me or you??

and as for your 'what if the kid(notme:) eats the plants, gets confused, and walks into traffic??' ummmmmm....really?? i guess that is possible, my hope would be that the easter bunny would stop him before he got in the road. a stretch but just as plausible as your fear monger story

and for what its worth...i know you are rarely misinformed but its not illegal to grow your own tobacco. heres a how-to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiW-jih_c...

gocubs- yea real nice. I am sure they don't smoke in front of their children. Yea sure.
Maybe DOT turned them in.
I am sure they don't have a flower garden. How do you explain the plate to your kids? Remember too much time in the basement for a LEGAL garden. You don't make a lot selling tomatoes.

I find it ironic that power and light is after them to pay some bills. Maybe they ratted them out!

Go Opionion and Mywords...you both got it right on the head!

When someone has "LET IT GROW" on their license plate like these guys did...I think we have issues here.....Don't you? HELLO!

LGMOM- You assume that Fred is a "dirtbag" and you assumed that he was doing this to make his living, two strong assumptions. If you truly don't have a problem with people using marijuana recreationally then where are they suppose to get it from? The drug cartels in Columbia and Mexico, who really are dirtbags who make millions off of the archaic marijuana laws in the US? I don't really think that Fred and his wife thought they were putting their children in jeopardy and as naive as that might be, it is also a pretty good sign that they aren't harden "dirtbag" criminals. Why don't you join the effort to legalize recreational and medicinal use of marijuana and help protect your friends from this kind of involvement?

Darwin- yes laws change. Here is one for you. Should it be changed back so we don't put more people in jail?
It used to be legal to shoot a guy dead for stealing your chickens. ( Janesville Century of Stories)

See not all laws should be made to stay the same and some should be. I used this example becuase soembody brought up old laws and women voting. Well it is illegal now to kill people.
You could also shoot your wife if she was cheating on you(if you caught her). It was made to be illegal later EXCEPT in Texas.
I would assume if pot becomes legal- medically speaking, because I don't think it will ever become totally legal, like cigs you still wont be able to grow your own. I don't even think you'll be able to grow the 12 plants like Kid mentions. If it is legal for medical purposes you'll need a script and go to the Pharmacy just like all your other scripts. I can see it now the Doctors giving scripts to people that don't really need it medically cause more money in Doc pocket. I have a headache and Tylenol doesn't work- yea right.

LGMom. Yes, it does make a difference. What were they doing? It is non-toxic. Illegality is the issue? Really. I called the police when a reckless driver had their toddler climbing around the car while driving. I was told they couldn't do anything about it. What they mean is that because the police cannot seize property they won't do anything about what is clearly a dangerous situation.

Saying something is wrong because it is illegal is a clear sign of a lazy thought process. At one time it was legal for men to beat and rape their wives. Under your reasoning, that made it ok.

The police don't care about protecting us they care about seizing property. And, they shoot first and ask questions later.

Let this be a lesson for those who want to grow pot residentially, it is very difficult to avoid attention from neighbors, utility companies, law enforcement, etc. If you want to be successful learn the pitfalls before you start growing, not the hard way! There's a website run by a former drug enforcement agent who got tired of arresting normally law-abiding citizens and ruining their lifes. Barry has advised many recreational users how to grow undetected at www.nevergetbusted.com. Tell him Blood sent you his way. Again, it is now the time to rise up and demand your rights protected by your elected officials. The tide is turning and we need to become very vocal!!!

Rumor about town is the house he was growing pot in is owned by his mother or some other relative. Be interesting to see who denies what in this case.

I'm not against pot smokers at all, I think what this couple is doing to their children is deplorable. Their lives turn into an upheaval because this dirtbag wants to make a living doing something illegal - who cares what it is, pot drunk driving - does it make a difference? The kids get the short end of the stick.

My question is how do they figure street value of $3,500 per pound? And, a half pound per plant? These guys sound like they've been smokin some of their take!!!

If these people were big-time drug dealers why did they only confiscate $2,070 and '02 Ford Explorer? Sounds like they were growing to provide for the "underground" pot smoking community in Lake Geneva of which there are MANY! Friends providing pot for friends, not "fat-cats" making huge profits off of drug dealing; not like the drug companies that have been contributing in large amounts to the politicians revising our healthcare system!!! These people are no more criminals than the guys who made "bath tub gin" for their friends during the prohibition. This is just another motivating reason why "pot smokers" need to take a stand NOW and demand a change in laws concerning medical and recreational marijuana!!!

So are they growing pot in a foreclosed property? Wouldn't you need power? Who's empty house is this? Who's empty house will be infested by mold and ruined. If the kids do go in there with all that mold that isn't good!

kid- could the kids eat the pot, get high, be confused and disoriented and HURT themselves someway?(example walk into traffic) I am sure you will ay NO WAY. You don't think straight if you are high. Oh I forgot you do but you are also a "trained" smoker not a CHILD!

opinions- Kid seemed to imply that would NEVER happen(kids getting pot in school).

kid-"why is it that making your own wine/beer will get you GLORIFIED on the front page of the gazette, and making your own pot gets you DEMONIZED??"
must we again. Pot is an illegal activity right now. Didn't you have an article in the paper on pot. Did you forget.

kid cocaine is bad right? Well in the other bust they found cocaine ALSO!

it amazes me time and time again how the blind can find the key board. one of the, if not THE most harmless drugs available to man and its illegal. the most serious potential side effect is from THE LAW...NOT THE USAGE. alcohol/tobacco set precedent and there should be no debate as to whether it should be legal. if your rights trump mine and others safety when it comes to those drugs, why is pot different?? are we free americans with rights?? or not?? this guy should go to jail, but for income tax evasion only, and even that is FORCED on him.

Also, way to go on working so hard on your "garden" that there is now a possibility of your children going to foster care or being raised by someone else because you will be in jail.

words: well put! Obviously NOT a smoke induced rant!
freeradical: I must not be giving the growers of the operation enough credit!! My bad! Way to go potheads, way to work so hard to get your stash to the size of a small forest!! Now if you would have worked a LITTLE harder on NOT getting busted!! Maybe you could have turned the ENTIRE house into a growing system and not just a few rooms!!

Let’s not get into the big moral and political debate if marijuana should be legalized and if it’s “OK” to do versus other drugs. Let’s talk about the facts of the situation. The two of them knew from day one of starting this operation that marijuana is illegal but decided to do it anyway. They had no concern for their children if they got caught and what would happen to them physically or emotionally. They live in a small community where people like to talk. This also has obviously been going on for quite some time which in turn puts not only their children but everyone in the surrounding community in danger from the illegal drugs and the people who seek them. Just because it was in a vacant house 10 feet from their residence and other residences doesn't make it OK. Authorities are required to uphold the law and that is what everyone expects them to do whether we believe in what they are upholding or not.

sounds like a smoke induced rant;) bravo:)

Opinions-Have you ever had a garden of a large size? It's not exactly as easy as throwing seeds in the ground and picking veggies when you're ready, I mean that will work, but not if you're trying to make MONEY off of those tomatoes,right?
Just because the pay is ridiculous doesn't mean there isn't a bit of hard work and commitment involved. Just saying, don't sell these growers short. I see a general idea that pot growers just sit around all day and sell weed when it's done. Imagine having a high class farm, and you have your operations inside. You have to feed, water, manage light, fight off insects....If it was as easy as many seem to think they'd be busting way more people for growing, or way less because everyone would grow their own. Taking care of 2 or 3 plants is one thing. 159? Not exactly a ten minute a day chore.

This is what we call a smokescreen. Take heat away from the fact that you can't seem to tackle the heroin problem effectively, and the fact that weed is already front and center with the bill. Pockets pay people to do things. Maybe these people were watched for awhile, and someone who doesn't want pot to be medicinally available said "ok wisconsin, do your busts now" so they can paint all these people with ties to weed as nasty criminals, so weed must be nasty in return....I'm just saying, great timing with the whole weed thing.

But what happened to the biggest drug epidemic this county has ever seen? you know, HEROIN!? Kind of lost the spotlight now,huh? Strange...

As far as I can tell, these kids weren't close to this pot, unless their parents were selling/smoking it at their HOUSE. The busted house was a rental unit, with no occupants. These kids were not in any danger,unless the parents dealt drugs out of their house. I'm looking past the fact that this plant is illegal so it has an artificially inflated value that makes it worth fighting and killing over, when really it's just a plant. How stupid. With more busts in town, look for more trafficking charges since it'll come from somewhere else, not that all three of these busts combined have any sort of significant impact on the marijuana supply. It's supply and demand. YOu take away a supply and the demand is still there, someone else from out of town is going to rush in to fill the gap. Plenty of drug dealers get happier with every bust, it makes their product's value go higher, and if their customers have little else to go to, they can aquire a soft monopoly for prices. The only good thing about these busts is that there is a extremely good chance that the weed that is trafficked in to replace that wisconsin home grown is more than likely going to be much, much better than any crap grown around here in some dude's basement. SO I guess I owe thanks...Thanks for upping the quality ante, JPD! Good on ya! =D

Vatoloco: thank you for that comment about drunk drivers. One of my fathers best friends just got booked for his 7th DWI and he is only going to sit for a year. This is a serious problem and i think people are finally starting to realize that it is getting worse every year. Pot may be bad i will agree but when you here about people getting killed by drunk drivers every week you know its bad. The police seem to be cracking down on weed but what about the real problem drug by the name of heroin? One of the worst and they cant seem to stop it. How about some answers on that one!!!

Ok-What I find screwed about this is that we let people get 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, or even 8 DWI's without serious jail time. These DWI offenders are more criminals to me because they can kill people at a higher probability than pot dealers and smokers.

kid: I don't recall EVER saying that I don't think pot should or shouldn't be legalized?? My real concern is with the dealing!

the article reads, only 1 arrested but BOTH are being charged, and if BOTH involved, than rightfully so! Hopefully there is someone in the family who can provide a loving home for the kids.

lol@opinions. you think pot should stay illegal but you have a problem w the dealers making tax free money??

yes i absolutely think. again, it should be legal to be taxed, but its not. even the medical marijuana law will allow only 12 plants per patient. so yes, 159 plants is more than personal/friend use. in my opinion these people are fools because they had kids. i think being fools, they did it right by using a dift house, and really, other than the kids being parent less the WORST thing about this is the tax loss and cost to arrest these people.

my opinion is that both parents wont be in jail at the same time. they didnt even charge the wife because of that. the hubby will prolly take the fall, wife will stay free, hubby will be free in a couple years and know next time what got him caught this time.

being illegal doesnt keep people from using marijuana. pot being illegal makes criminals out of those who just arent.

migie10: "stupid"?? I'm thinking you probably could have come up with something better than calling people who don't think pot should be legalized, stupid! Or maybe not!!
This article and the dispute should not so much be about whether or not pot should be legal, it's about people growing, not just for themselves but for EVERYONE to "enjoy". It's not right! And what else isn't right, is the fact that dealers get all this tax free money! Unless of course they actually claim all the money the make and consider themselves self employed?

i absolutely agree that children need as much help as we can give them. i am not condoning what these people did. the law should be dift but its not, and they knew the risk they were taking and they deserve whatever punishment their peers decide. not sure what relevance helping and keeping our kids safe has to do with adults smoking marijuana tho. it sure doesnt seem to be a factor/consideration when it comes to responsible alcohol consumption...

oh, and I must add....making your OWN pot is one thing!!! Making enough to provide the entire county with pot, is quite another story don't you think?

All you guys that are saying that pot shouldnt be legal are stupid. For all the people out there that have to deal with horrible headaches or have family that has cancer and the only thing that helps to take some of the pain away is weed support the legalization of pot!!! Some people need this and how many people do you here dying from weed? Not too many but alcohol? millions!!! How about we legalize pot and get rid of all those drunk drivers out there that are killing innocent people!!!

kid: none of those things are "OK". And alcohol IS illegal in schools and IS illegal for those under the age of 21! I don't disagree about pot being the lesser of 2 evils in some instances. But when it comes to CHILDREN...they need all the help they can get, not having their neighbor growing "some real good stuff" and tempting them!!!

Personally, I think America's drug laws are absurd, however being parents they should have made a better decision than to leave their children without parents, even if it was to pay the bills.

Move, get help, anything. I feel sorry for the kids.

why is it ok for the federal govt to allow tobacco companies to add POISON to cigs??

why is it ok for people in society to become addicted on alcohol??

why is alcohol not prohibited to keep it from our school system??

why is it that making your own wine/beer will get you GLORIFIED on the front page of the gazette, and making your own pot gets you DEMONIZED??

packer fan: Addiction can happen in any situation wether legal or not, that's the problem of the user! I really feel that people "allow" themselves to become addicted. That's a choice too. Maybe not to get addicted, but it's a chance you take when you make the choice to use. Addiction is an excuse so many times, it's quite sad. In this case, although there was probably an addiction to smoking pot, there was an even stronger addiction to getting some fast cash without having to really work like the rest of us!

These people couldn't find legitimate employment for the sake of their kids? I know that it's hard to find a job now, but this isn't the answer. They should have thought about the consequences before they started growing pot. I also don't think pot should be legalized, even for medical purposes. If you get addicted, then you have another problem.

Correction: make that "victimless CRIMES". (Must have been Freudian omitting the word "crime".)

Notice how the arguments in favor of victimless often begin, "But what if..."

Another thing, I understand that many feel that pot is not nearly as harmful as other more common and legal products. However, it is still illegal! It's one thing to make a choice to smoke pot yourself, it is QUITE another to make a choice to run a Class A operation like theirs and sell it. So you think they really keep tabs on where it goes once it leaves their "place of business"? Doubtful! And I am pretty confident in saying that I am sure it's getting into our school systems and that is wrong on any level! I have children and tho I am sure they may try different things as they mature, it's nice to know that dirtbags like these are busted, 1 less place for kids to get their hands on it!

popcorn: of course they bought the kids Christmas gifts, I would think they smoke their own which I am sure is free to them. The gifts bought is probably all from drug money, so heck, their kids probably have a better Christmas than most. Until now anyways!!

popcorn: not sure why anyones kids would decide to eat plants but to answer your question...'what if the kids got into the pot'...well if they 'got into the pot' and ate it they would get high. probably confused as heck too, having no idea what 'high' is suppose to be. maybe cry from the confusion. mouth would get dry. maybe go to sleep after a bit. lots of maybes... the effects would wear off and the kid(not me:) would hopefully learn a lesson. one thing i can PROMISE you is that no death would result. the same CAN NOT be said if the kid gets into aspirin, alcohol, tobacco, household cleaning products...

its a non-toxic plant. no human could possibly ingest enough marijuana,whether by smoking or eating, to be deadly. just. not. possible.

Lets bust some meth labs

As always the comments are more interesting than the article

spud: Good post.

davvic: Good comment.

you know its sad when you have kids and they gotta have that pot...what if the kids got into the pot ect these 2 need to be locked up and think about the kids now the kids prolly get taking away because they had to suck on that pot....they take pot over their kids gee i wonder if if they brought the kids xmas presents?? or if they just brought pot for themself

Spudbeach - "They sell it because they and other people enjoy it." Let's be honest here. They sell it because it's a lucrative business and certainly not for any altruistic reasons. As a parent I can assure you that I would never engage in an illegal activity that could conceivably get me jail time and jeopardize the welfare of my children. I simply would not take that risk. And I feel that any parent that would has put their own interests before their kids. In the article it was stated "Authorities were concerned about who would care for the children if both parents were taken to jail". Clearly the parents weren't concerned with that when they chose to embark on this entrepreneurial venture. So maybe the kids will be better off in somebody elses care. The point I'm trying to make here is not whether pot should be legalized, I happen to think it should. What I take issue with is anybody feeling sorry for these parents. They're not "crusaders" in the war to legalize pot. They weren't activists out there protesting the futility of prosecuting potheads. They were out there first and foremost to make a fast buck and to hell with the consequences!

Enough is enough we have over 2.2 million of our citizens incarcerated. We lead the world by a wide margin in our per capita incarceration rates. Why are we spending so much tax dollars on this while our children fall further and further behind the world in math and science education?

spudbeach...to quote a mr farley..."that...was...awesome"

perfectly said. wow.

Doesn't look like red-eyed Fred is feeling any pain.

dub190 sounds like a bleeding-heart liberal.

after reading spudbeach, i realized that murder and rape and crimes against ppl were more important convictions over crimes people do to themselves. it hurts to see the U.S. waste so much money on the war on drugs, but it hurts worse to see money wasted to convict ppl with weed. it only make ppl stupid and fat. which most americans are. besides other drugs do more damage than weed like the heroin probelm or the meth problem or etc. no one has ever died from weed, and yet states are finally realizing making it a medical drug is helpful.

Poor kids have loser parents.

I don't know how you can stand to argue with these anti-pot posters anymore. Their arguments make no sense and just make me laugh.

Kid you amaze me. You are so motivated and dedicated that you are still willing to try to knock some sense into justaguys head..

JustAGuy: So, since pot is illegal we should just accept it, deal with it, get over it, stop whining, and let you get on with your hating?
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Sorry, but I can't do that.
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I think there should be a reason we put people in jail. I think that we should be able to do better than saying "Because it is". I think that it is reasonable to compare pot to drugs that are legal (alcohol, nicotine), and find that pot is far less dangerous, and conclude that pot should be legal. Once concluding that pot should be legal, I am raising my voice, saying so.
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Let's apply your "argument" that "it's illegal, stupid!" to other great moments in US legal history:
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"Oh, shut up! Since the 19th amendment, it's illegal to have alcohol! If not for you people, all the problems with the bootleggers would go away!"
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"Oh, Thurgood! Can't you just accept Plessy v. Ferguson and stop trying to have integrated education for blacks?"
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"But Abraham, look what you did! You went and got elected, and look at what all your talking about stopping the spread of slavery has done! If not for you, South Carolina wouldn't have left the Union! Can't you just accept the law as it is, and not cast aspersions on the Dred Scott decision?"
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Someday, rational people will wonder what all the fuss was about. And you, JustAGuy, will wonder what happened to the objects of your hate.
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P.S.: For the record, I've never tried pot or any other illegal drug. My kids have never used it either (they're young, so I'm pretty certain). But I'm just trying to change the world so that if they do try it, they won't be thrown in jail. If the worst consequence of smoking pot is getting thrown in jail (hence to get raped, TB, etc.), the law is wrong.

kid: it's all you do is cry about drinking being legal and pot being illegal, you think we want to listen to all that "intelligence" about that all day? pot is illegal, get over it and walk away. You say how you went to pot bcuz of too many drunk driving arrests/tickets ... i'm sure your no better with your pot .... get a life, don't let your pot control you forever .... makes you look weak.

its like a tiger playing with a dead rabbit. lol

'i'm tierd of listen to all your crying' how do i argue with that level of intelligence??

Just a victimless crime ... right?

boating: best you could come up with? intelligent answer ... just as long as the pot heads get their weed i'm sure they could care less about the families of the sellers

Please stop, you're scaring the children.

kid: go cry on someone elses shoulder will you ... i'm tierd of listen to all your crying. boating: use your head and figure it out, i'm not here to hold your hand and tell you a story.

justaguy 7:51pm- The parents put them in danger from any dopehead who may have known drugs were in the house...

Drugs weren't found in the family home, they were in an adjacent property, how does that endanger the kids?

alcohol is legal and pot is illegal?? again justaguy, your wisdom and perspective are valuable assets to this blog. keep up the good work. you only help our cause!!

does your wisdom make it seem like you are always standing alone in the room in real life as much as it does on this website??

spud: Nice spin you put on things, you just can't face facts. Nobody made this loser grow pot and sell it, surely not me and another fact for you to face is that beer IS legal so get over that pity cry also. You sound like you live is a sad little world that you have to blame me for what this scum did to his family ... face the facts and try to grow up will ya?

JustAGuy: They sell it because they and other people enjoy it. If beer was illegal would you call bartenders "scum" but not patrons?
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And I do feel for the kid here. Just remember that the kid's life is screwed up not because dad grew pot, but because of people like JustAGuy. If not for people calling them "scum", dad would still be home taking care of the kids. Now, he's facing a lot of years in jail, for helping other enjoy a drug less evil than tobacco or alcohol.
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I hope you feel good inside thinking about the kids, JustAGuy.

Just as long as you get your pot there are no victims right? It's not legal so get over your pity cry and worry about the kids in families like this.

spud: If you'd read before you opened your mouth I said drug selling scum, not people who enjoy it. Get your facts right or it just makes you look stupid, shoe fit?

As usual, JustAGuy labeling people who enjoy marijuana "scum". Boy, would I love to see he face when he is shown the guy who gets free marijuana from the federal government, and has been since the 70's! I'd also like to see his face when he reads that an actual honest to goodness legislative vote in favor of receational marijuana.
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But no, he'd probably burst a blood vessel, and it wouldn't be pretty.

Lets hear another victimless crime from you know who? I spose the kids don't count either? Glad to see the drug selling scum put in jail but I feel sorry for the kids. The parents put them in danger from any dope head who may have known the drugs were in the house and figured it to be an easy score. Just as long as the pot heads have someone to buy if from they could care less who is put in danger .... let's hear all your worthless spins now "you know who you are"

Fred looks like a nice guy--I hope they aren't too hard on him.....

Another one jeez cmon tax dollars go to something thats dangerous

Yup.......still don't care about pot!! Why is city, county, state, and Federal government wasting so much time and money on this drug? Legalize it and tax it! Bam....national debt gone!

i wonder if now the streets will be free from that evil plant??