Man made god in his own image, sexist, homophobic, violent, racist, ect.

Who has the higher human and animal kill count - god or the devil?

I don't know about you but threats of extreme violence and torture if I do not believe/love someone sounds like a dysfunctional/abusive relationship.

Does god lead by example?

It's the very cliff billnewbie and Eman don't want to topple over.

...and over the cliff we go.

Ahh - he hit them with a plague beacause the worshiped a rival god because of the women. Then he ordered the slaughter of the innocent children by the tens of thousands who could not have possibly been old enough to have played a part in the acts that angered the lord.
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Of course with 32,000 virgins - there must have been conservatively an equal number of nonvirgin women? Did all of them comitt the crime - or were there a few thousand of them that were innocent also. I am sure as with most of the death that god hands out - the innocent die with the guilt, and in the most cruel way possible.
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Would you tell your children to be god like? Not me I would want mine to not throw a tantrum and or commit genocide when they get jealous.

Oh sorry, I misread your "context." You're incorrect, the plague was not the women:

Numbers 31:
They (women) were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people.

Numbers 25:

1 While Israel was staying in (a town with a name edited out by Gazette's filter), the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods. 3 So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the LORD's anger burned against them.

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, 18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."

Joshua 22:
17 Was not the sin of Peor enough for us? Up to this very day we have not cleansed ourselves from that sin, even though a plague fell on the community of the LORD! " 'If you rebel against the LORD today, tomorrow he will be angry with the whole community of Israel. 19 If the land you possess is defiled, come over to the LORD's land, where the LORD's tabernacle stands, and share the land with us. But do not rebel against the LORD or against us by building an altar for yourselves, other than the altar of the LORD our God. 20 When Achan son of Zerah acted unfaithfully regarding the devoted things, [a] did not wrath come upon the whole community of Israel? He was not the only one who died for his sin.' "

Played very well, prounion. You got buckyfan to hang in there longer than billnewbie. Ultimately she bailed, they all do eventually. What must it be like to feel emptiness where substance should be.

How 'bout saving those virgins for personal use, buckyfan? Seems akin to the dreams of the terrorists who murdered 3000 people on 9/11.

To bad you've only maneuvered yourself into a position where you can only read this and not be able to respond.

Prounion, it's funny you felt you needed to "help" me with the context. You said nothing different than I had already shared.

This is my last post for now. I have answered your original question, I have offered the study. You continue to ask questions. Let me know when you want to meet.

As for your final question about Jesus/God, look to water for your answer. I hope you can figure it out on your own.

Thanks Bucky - sorry to hear about your illness. Let me see if I can help you out on the biblical context. The plague was actually the women having sex with the isrealite men and pulling them towards a rival god. Thus - since your god is a jealous god - he says so himself - he ordered the slaughter of all.
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My question is, putting aside for not the fact that your god is simply a social construct, how can you worship a god that would slaughter the babies that could not have possibly deserved thier fate?
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Also since god is jesus and jesus god and both eternal - did Jesus order that slaughter?

Don't these people have anything better to do? Probably not, as they're likely the same people that want to ban toys from kids' meals. What a bunch of losers.

1. God’s wrath through plague—I don’t believe it happens today, but there are others who might argue that. My reasoning: There are no “chosen” people like in OT times who are punished as a whole. Also, God does not reveal Himself as he did in OT times. So, yes, eternal damnation.

2. You did not understand my interpretation correctly. The people slaughtered didn’t have the plague. The plague was affecting the Israelites for their pulling away from God and breaking His commandments.

I cannot speak to your definition of a loving God, as I have said before.

As for your most recent post. I work. I’m a single Mom. I spend many hours doing evening/weekend activities for youth programs, and I have a serious illness that requires more attention than I’ve been able to give. I also do not have Internet at home. I cannot have a full Bible discussion with you on this matter in this format. As I have offered before, I would be happy to meet with you/speak to you on the phone if you want to explore this further. It’s much quicker that way and won’t cause me to lose my job because I’m spending work time on this matter.

By crowds I mean there were 32,000 virgins god ordered to become slaves - I assume your theory is that is a result of the sin of the winning army? Anyways the scale of the genocide must have been very large. If there were 32,000 virgins - the women that had "known a man by lying with him" must have numbered into the tens of thousands as well - maybe a thousand pregnant women - and thousands with thier male toddlers at their side?
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I assume that they went into oblivion and not into eternal torment in hell after they were slaughtered since hell had not yet been invented at that time?
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What do you think that was like for them waiting for the army of god to finish its bloody business? Must have taken along time to slaughter what maybe 100K infants, toddlers, women and elderly? The passage was clear that then men of fighting age were utterly wiped out in battle - no prisoners, no survivors as god had ordered.

Thanks Bucky - couple of follow up questions:

1. Plague comes from god's wrath? Does that still happen today or is his wrath now quenched through eternal torture and burning in hell?
2. If I understand your interpretation - there was a plague - and the slaughter was ordered to stop the spread of the microorganisms from the captured people via slaughter. Why keep the virgin females?
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You try to inteprete the passage as a tough choice to commit genocide for the great fight against the bacteria that would have wiped out the Isrealites - not likely with the keeping of the young ladies.
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Or do you mean that because they did not keep god's law god gave them the choice to slaughter or he would hit them with the plague?
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Can you imagine a god that would make you kill a mother while she holds her infant? How about on that does that repeatedly? Along with crowds of children that watch as thier mothers and granmothers are slaughtered? Is that a loving god?

Prounion, the reason I asked about whether you would kill when you/family faced death is because that is what was happening to the Israelites in Numbers 31. They faced death by plague because they didn’t follow God’s law, intermarried with the unbelievers and were drawn away from God. The only way to save themselves from certain death was to kill the others. So, if you were in their shoes, apparently you would have done the same.

I, on the other hand, am not sure I would be able to kill to save myself and my family. That is why I didn’t join the military, and that is why I don’t own a gun for protection--because it is likely to escalate the situation if I’m not able to actually pull the trigger.

As for Gazettefan’s comment about creating doubt, sorry my friend, you are mistaken. I have always wondered whether I would be able to stand up under such extreme circumstances, and it would be foolish of me to say yes or no. Jesus also struggled with his impending death: (“Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”) As those in war might attest: While you might be trained for action, it’s an entirely different thing when you’re in battle. Some are able to do it, and some crumble. I pray I can stay strong in every adversity, including my current path toward an early death.

Thanks for reading and respecting what I have to say. I hope that you will never be faced with such a struggle as those in Numbers 31: killing others to save your own family as a punishment for your own sin.

buckyfan, the point is to get you to understand that your important beliefs are based on nothing substantial.

Doubt has entered your mind. Though you'll never admit it here, someday you'll garner the courage to face the truth and truly enjoy life for the rich experience it is.

Of course I have read it, and I am eagerto discuss and examine the text. You don't seem to be as eager for some reason?
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What would you have done?

You would have had to have read the bible in the first place in order to understand it.

Bucky's answer of "not sure" is still the most straighforward moral answer I have been able to get from a christian.
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Why hide your answers in riddles and smoke - would you guys have speared the babies?

Wait Knights you sound like an athiest. Most christians would say that morality comes from the bible - and from the unchanging god. You say that when god endorses slavery and genocide he does so because the authors of the bible thought that was moral prior to the 1st century? Or do we simply pick and chose the sections of god's word that we deem ourselves to be moral?
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Would you have speared the babies if you were there then?

Interpretation of the Bible is always done within specific cultural contexts. As cultures change the way in which morality is perceived changes also. All cultures experience this temporal nature of morality, a gradual change in opinion over time. Each cultural frameset is liable to read morals into the largely amoral text of the Bible according to their perception of what morals are within their cultural context.
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Therin lies the answer of the spearing of wed mothers and their infants.

Oh sorry Bucky - yes I would use deadly force - not sure how that relates to the slaughter of captured women and children after all then men have died in battle but anyways - yes I would use deadly force.
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So just to be clear you are not sure if your faith is strong enough to kill on god's orders?

Already answered, prounion. If you can't figure out the answer from my post, then your reading comprehension is sorely lacking. Also, I'm a woman. So, the question is moot...

Finally, you didn't answer my question to you. Tit for tat, baby.

Bucky - god did not ask in Numbers 31 he ordered and when the natural human moral code of the army kicked in they saved the women and children. Moses had this to say:

15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

This was based on God's order, god ordered humans to slaughter other humans.

I am guessing that these folks are not yet christians because christ had not been born so god ordered killing but by hebrews was your point?
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Anyways - not interested in your biblical interpretation as much as what you would have done had you been there - what say you dear christian? What would your response to Moses have been? Pound sand or where is the spear? Pound sand or where is the nearest airport?

OK, prounion, I'll bite (although I had said I would not discuss the Bible with you further).

Not that you really care what I answer, but God has never asked any Christian to kill. But He has asked many to actually die for Him. I'm not sure I have the faith to do either, and I hope I'm never asked.

Does that make me a bad Christian? Probably. I most certainly am as flawed as everyone else on this planet.

A question for you, Prounion, if someone was threatening you and your entire family with death, would you go quietly, or would you use deadly force to survive?

Ok - can't answer what you would do in the event god asked you to spear babies and the mothers that hold them by the thousands.
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I as an athiest am able to easily answer the question - is my moral code superior to yours?
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Lets back up for a minute and see if we can give you guys an easier moral question to answer. Is spearing babies and the mothers that hold them in general morally wrong? For instance you read an article about genocide in africa where this very thing happens - are the people that commit these atrocities wrong?
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Again I am not asking for an interpretation of verse here - it is clear your god is genocidal - countless examples of him scrubbing large groups of people from the earth - flood for example. Rather just asking what you would have done and what you believe is right and wrong.

Gfan- Buckyfan summed it up at 3:38 but I'll add to his thoughts.
Since you (and prounion) persist with requests for an answer to the question regarding Numbers 31 I have come to the following conclusions. No matter what the answer, you have a counter answer already prepared. Once you have declared victory, usually after multiple posts going nowhere, you will move to another question. This too will be a Bible challenge, and this too will be rubutted with pre written answers. This goes on and on, sometimes for days. Meanwhile you, or your buddy prounion, will post the original challenge about Numbers 31 on another thread, hoping another well meaning soul will take the bait.
I've been down this road with others and at the end is a cliff, over which much wasted time will fall.

Ah Gazettefan, so glad you confirmed to me, at least, what I've been certain of for a long time...your questions are not to seek knowledge/understanding but to mock. What value would it be to me to answer, then?

The answers you seek are right there in the text. If you cannot find them, let me know. I promise not to mock your simplistic understanding. That would not be very loving (I'm not an eye-for-an-eye kind of girl).

Until then, the dust continues to be shaken. I'm happy to discuss other issues with you if you do that sort of thing.

buckyfan, your bible based thought processes have appropriately harmed your ability to understand. My bible scholarship demands that questions be asked of believers to emphasize the fact that the bible makes no sense. The further point is that in order for believers to "make sense" out of the bible they have to commit folderol -proving my point. Short of that, they can refuse to answer those questions -again proving my point.

Next question.

Wilt thou shut ye ol' pie hole?!!!

Wilt thine own soul not seek the truth and believe gazettefan? Corrupt and dirty are your thoughts and actions. Wilt thou be damned without knowing? Wilt thou confine yourself to eternal damnation? And if so, I ask why. This is not a question asked of man, but from your savior himself.

Gazettefan, you're not much of a Bible scholar if you cannot figure these things out on your own.

All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.

And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Thy raiment waxed not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell, these forty years.

And while you're at it, what's up with Knightettessse.............?

buckyfan, nice try, honey. But you answered nothing. Let's hear it, what's up with Numbers 31. And you hurt your cause by bringing up Job. Explain that too!!!

Oh Gazettefan, we've been through Numbers 31 before. If you are not satisfied with my answer, I cannot do any more for you.

If you need a refresher, the answer you seek is in Numbers. If that's not satisfactory for you, try Job. When you're done reading those, let me know your conclusions. I'm sure they'll be as amusing as they usually are.

OK, knightlettes...... Anything else?

LOL

When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:

And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.

Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.

Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.

Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.

Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words

Perhaps, buckyfan, can tells us about Numbers 31 and that other number code business in the bible.

I just didn't take farfnik as a tongues speaker, so it had to be something else, foth. Honnrtodj might have been a good guess, but I struck out in a different direction.

No... that you would even TRY, Buckfan! (I just assumed it was honnrtodj.)

RIP, Farfnik.

And farfnik is now removed from the Gazette. That was certainly short-lived.

Don't fret, foth, I didn't spend too much time deciphering (givl can be hpph;rf).

Gee, and here I thought *I* had too much time on my hands, Buckyfan! LOL

Third eye - I would not have speared the babies, my moral code would not have allowed it and I am an athiest.
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You are correct about the repeated asking of the question - wrong that a christian has answered it.
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I am asking what you would have done - its simple.

Gazettefan, farfnik is using code to give his not-so-nice opinion of Scott Angus. Just look at a QWERTY keyboard to decipher for yourself...all the letters are just one key over.

Not sure what Scott did to farfnik, but I'd say the anger is displaced. And the posting is pretty childish.

foolonthehill, as one of the world's foremost bible scholars I am at a loss to cite anything in scripture that would explain why the lord would allow Touchdown Jesus to be destroyed by fire while a nearby porn shop is left unscathed.

Perhaps, billnewbie or thirdeye can decidedly enlighten us, as it were, if you will.

farfnik, if you're going to speak glossolalia, kindly interpret for the heathens.

Kingnettesss must have gone the way of joejack and that lunatic in Beloit who has videos on youtube. Where do they disappear to?

thirdeye, answer the Numbers 31 questions if you're so damned smart. What are you afraid of?

ProU
You have asked this many times on previous posts, and I am sure you have recieved many answers.
Is this your only problem with the bible? One verse?
Must be, since your a one question 'pony'.

Third eye - what would you have done had you been present at the Numbers 31 god ordered slaughter?

Knigettes... It is time to invoke 1 Timothy 6:20 (...turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge.) regarding gazettefan. He feels that he is an expert on the bible because he can create riddles within it's pages.
Brings to mind a common sense saying:
'Never argue with an idiot, he will bring you down to his level and beat you with his years of experience.
People looking on will not be able to tell the difference'

...and, speaking of being hit by lightning, GFan:

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/06/15/...

Pat Robertson, who attributed hurricane Katrina and the Haitian earthquake to "divine intervention", had no comment.

"givl dvpyy smhidd"

FARFNIK! You took the words right out of my mouth! Although, I would add rebersack and hobbersober.

Kinda hard to take them seriously when they go on and on about protecting embryos but can't say they would not have speared the babies, children, pregnant women.
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It takes religion to force a moral code that rationalizes slaughter of infants.

The lord couldn't take it anymore: Kniglettes was struck by lightning.

Knight - come on - thousands of captives were slaughtered what would you have done if you were there - why can't a christian answer this question?
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No I would not have slain the babies, but maybe the women and the elderly.
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Yes I would have killed em all - let god sort them out.
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I would not have slain the pregnant women - but would have kept the virgins as god instructed.
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I would have defended the babies with my life.
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Which one of these potential answers is the most moral according to your religion and or your beliefs?
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Go ahead and write up an answer of your own - not too tough unless your mind has been crippled by religion - in which case you face reality and your vision of a loving god coming into conflict and it would be uncomfortable to think about what you would do had you been hanging with Moses that day.

Recent stories have been shut down after billnewbie posts.

Well, prounion, christians are apparently allowed to get high. ;~)

KnightHospital, the Old Testament, the Hebrew, bible is part of the christian bible.

The old testament cannot be compared with the new truth. It was meant for the Hebrews, from which the Christian church sprang, but the Christians are not tied to by the blood of the one true God.
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Your attempts to bait are mute. There is no interpretation of the word.

Knight hospital - my moral code as an athiest allows me to proclaim in a straightforward maner that I would NOT have slain the infants slaughtered on gods orders in numbers 31 - what would you have done? all I can get from the other christians is that I am somehow defective for asking.

Great point proartist. I wonder if you would agree that religious minded people shouldn't be robbed of their money to fundy our crappy school systems.

As usual, any time you mix "name-your-secular-institution-or-topic" with religion, religion initiates divisiveness among otherwise sane people. This comment board demonstrates EXACTLY why organized religion has no place within the PUBLIC schools and why government tax dollars should not be funneled into religious entities no matter how righteous such endeavors may seem on the surface.

"How do you explain the contradictions in the synoptic gospels?"
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Man's interpretation of that which cannot be interpreted, for it is the word and will of God. For you to question it in and of itself is sinful.

There is death because Adam ate the apple. Who are we to question the will of God? He set rules, and we broke them. And so we pay the price of our mortality, and are so blessed.

Pray for the twelve children who die from starvation every hour because "god" is too busy listening to your folderol.

There are no contradictions because there is no interpretation. It is the word of God.-
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If you do not believe, then I will pray for you.

Reputable bible scholars agree: The gospel of "John" was not written by John.

How do you explain the contradictions in the synoptic gospels?

In John 21, it clearly defines the author as one whom the lord loved, and that most certainly be John.

knigettes....., the gospel of "John" was written 65 to 90 years after Jesus' death by nobody knows -who, by the way, had no contact with Jesus.

That gospel is so way way out there that it can't even be included in the synoptic gospels. The synoptic gospels, written decades after Jesus' death, have such sever and fatal contradictions that they have to be mashed together in an attempt to hide those contradictions -hence the word "synoptic."

The gospel of John has no credibility.

To say that Jesus did not exist Darwin1 is as to saying that Eleanor Roosevelt did not exist. A great woman, who did the work of the Lord, but not as great as her Lord, whom she revered, respected, and loved.

"This title therefore read many of the Jews, for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city; and it was written in Hebrew, `and' in Latin, `and' in Greek." - John 19:20
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It's obvious that Jesus, our savior and Lord knew Greek, gazettefan. Perhaps not fluently, but there are many more references to the Greek language being used by those who followed the one true God.

And what of this Commandment by Jesus' father (or somehow Jesus himself -depending on how that whole trinity thing sorts out in your mind)?

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me"

Interpretation problem? Wrong word?

Don't forget Deuteronomy 12:32

Different meanings of the same word are listed in order of usage -number one being the most used.

What does your bible say? And how could the wrong word make its way into bible? And, if Jesus said we should love our enemy, how could he say anything that would adulterate our love for our parents? Why can't it be a tie?

On point is that: If the wrong interpertation is so commonlly used in the bible, how is the bible to be interpreted properly.

And also to the point: The "witnesses" to the life of Jesus didn't speak Greek and were barely literate -if literate at all. Scripture was written decades after Jesus' death by people who didn't know him in places far from the his wanderings. The passage of time and the length of distance nourishes the belief in the supernatural.

How can the bible be respected as a source for anything other than its own unreliability?

The Greek-English Lexicon give 3 possible translations for the word miseo...
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μισεω
-to have a strong aversion to, hate, detest
-to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard
-in contrast to preferential treatment
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In two of the three possible translations we see that "miseo" can mean to "disfavor" your parents in favor of Jesus, to give preferential treatment not to your parents, but to Jesus, or to detest them. Given the abundance of teachings from Jesus in regard to forgiveness of others and loving your enemy; to think he is speakig of literal hate takes a long stretch of the imagination.

Furthermore, Dwight....., there is nothing mitigating about a god or a son of god telling people to love their parents less so that they can love him more.

Think about it.

Dwight......, sources confirm that "miseo" means "hate" -including the ancient translation of the word.

Nice try.

And before you get into context, know this:

"You are to keep with care all the words I give you, making no addition to them and taking nothing from them."
--------Deuteronomy 12:32

gazettefan - The word "hate" in Luke 14:26 is very much lost in translation. The original greek word it is translated from, "miseo", literally translates to "to love less".
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"If anyone comes to Me, and does not love his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters less than me, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26)
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Better?

That darn psychiatric profession has turned everything into a mental disorder. The psych-industry baloney should leave the relig-baloney alone

And it doesn't matter if Jesus actually existed or not. The point is: everything in the bible is supposed to be true. How can mutual contradictions be true? To believe total opposites at the same time requires that healthy thought processes be shutdown.

This bleeds over into other things, like how billnewbie can believe that Shakespeare's work is religious and christian.

The world is 6000 years old, and there hasn't been a real biblical type miracle in over 2000 years. They used to happen with great frequency, but nowadays we just don't seem to see many pillars of fire or resurrections. Has God gotten weaker?

How do you know Jesus said that? You can't even prove Jesus existed. Where is the body? Oh it ascended into heaven? How convenient.

What about when Jesus said this?:

"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26)

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son."

Eman, your last post was unresponsive to my previous one.

Eman, nice way of responding to my helping you fill the void of your lack of education re: how our government works. No "thank you" for the free civics lesson?"

PS I knew I could shut you up.

Eman, here's further explanation: Federal law relies on the Constitution. Federal law rules the land save for matters not clarified in federal law. State and local governments can make laws that are not specifically in the purview of federal law. State and local governments can make no laws that are in contradiction to federal law.

This is basic high school stuff. The Civil War had a lot to do with this issue. Even though that war may not have ended to your liking, it is time to face reality.

Having had first-hand experience with the tyrannical marriage of religious belief and government power, Mormons are among the staunchest proponents of separation.

Eman, you might want to try reading a Supreme Court opinion on this because the "Congress" part doesn't matter because its the "make NO law" part that does. No government entity can establish a religion or Utah would be a Mormon state already. Please try staying with us in reality.

While there is no phase, "separation of church and state", in the U.S. Constitution, there is also no phrase, "freedom of religion". A history of the phrase, including unambiguous quotes from Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_...

and thanks to this nonsense, I have good reason to believe that teens who COULD benefit by the processing that AA provides, more than likely WILL NOT do so on his/her own time (what teenager will attend something that they will benefit from-whether they are willing to acknowledge it or not-if not "forced" to do so?) In other words, thanks to the FFRF, we will now have additional teenagers with problems who don't feel worthy enough to help. GOOD JOB.

Darwin1, I'm just so much better than you and your insipid attacks that I will not respond to them...just wanted to point that out.

:)

CRES will no longer be taking students to optional AA meetings in the fall. Students will decide if they want to go to AA or other twelve step meetings on their own time. Thank you to our supporters. We are only trying to do good things for kids.

Good point, foolonthehill. I guess I just didn't want to use another form of the word "word" in the same sentence.

"Word pile" would be better. Or maybe lexidroppings.

"Thought Piles", GFan? That's being generous to point of flattery, wouldn't you say? While the noun "pile" is apropos, please reconsider your choice of the qualifier, "thought". May I instead suggest, "neural netherland" or "synaptic slurry" or even "cacophonous cognitive chaos"?

(Where is Spiro Agnew when we need him? ;~)

Especially politicians that pry on fears of others. "You will lose your medicare". "Your children will starve at school". "They are going to fire teachers, fireman, and police officers". "We will give you more of .... (insert ANYTHING here)".

Especially religious politicians.

"Only religion gets to make fraudulent promises it can't prove."
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No, happens often in our society. The most prolific are politicians...

Only religion gets to make fraudulent promises it can't prove.

Talk about being cynical; people finally find salvation and all billnewbie can do is put them down. This is why people don't like Christians. It isn't about love and forgiveness, it is about being better than others and pointing that out.

cmnfnf, silently praying to yourself on government property is no more a ritual than thinking about blowing up a building on government property is the same as actually blowing up that building.

And government property being public property doesn't mean you can perform a religious ritual on it any more than you can build a house on it.

As for your bowling reference: ARE YOU HIGH?!

gazettefan, When I'm on jury duty I pray that I will make the right decision. That is performing a religious ritual on government property. Also, doesn't the fact that it is government, i.e. public property give me the right to use it also.
The dictionary defines religion as: a something one believes in and follows devoutly.
I have family who expect me to give up my church time for a get together because that is the only time they don't have bowling. That is something they follow devoutly. So by that definition, we could never allow a bunch of bowlers to meet at Courthouse Park.

billnewbie, maybe someday you'll be able to write compact sentences with torque. Until then, we'll have to endure your insufferably worded thought-piles.

Not bad, eh? You wish you could write like that.

You are impressive, Gazettefan. In the same sentence you proudly beat your chest about how courageous you are and then accuse me of being a narcissist. You're a laugh riot!

billnewbie, it's just the opposite. Believers when dying are in terror of death because it finally hits them that they've been living a pipe dream (if thekid'll pardon the expression). Proof that deep down inside no one really believes in immortality is that friends and family of a dying person do not give messages to the dying person to deliver to other friends and family who preceded them in death.

By the way, death is not a far-off, unreal thing for me. I know it's coming and I have the courage, unlike you, to not narcissistically feel entitled to immortality.

You keep on visiting those dying folks, Bulllriders. Those on their deathbeds need the hope that the gospel offers. That's why so many who are dying and have rejected God respond to God and His promises at that time. Their cynicism, sneers and defiant bravado at God and the gospel all fail them as they see the end of their lives up close and personal. When death is a distant future event, it's easy to ignore its consequences. For those who say there is no God, death is the end of existence, the end of hope, the end of all. From a distance, death seems like an abstract, an unreality. It’s easy to ignore. But when they get within a few hours of that certain event their perspective changes. Their snide comments don’t reassure them anymore. The courage they thought would sustain them fails. Whether they expect the abyss or hellfire at the end of life, neither alternative is appealing when death is imminent. But the gospel offers hope where none existed before. Those who scoff now may well wish someone like Bulllriders will be there when their time of dying comes. God waits patiently and offers choices that can be refused or accepted. Death offers nothing and will not be denied.

bullriders, you seem to have a bad effect on people when they're sick in bed. Stay away!

I think that a lot of people for get that this country was built on faith you people can slam god all you want to but we will all find out when the time comes who is godly and who isnt I have seen alot of nobelivers turn to god when they are on there death bed so every one can state what they believe i know what i do

Dumberjack, you are the one who said that you believe in the Constitution and now you have some other crappy excuse as to why it is ok for Christians to once again impose their fraud of a religion on the rest of us. You can talk all you want about how much Christians pay in taxes because it doesn't matter, you still aren't allowed to take MY money for your religion. There is NO god, you can't prove one exists but you want us to pay as though one does - it is fraud.

Religious groups have be lying about the end of the world for some time now. How many times will religious groups have to be wrong before they realize that they are? 20? 30?

darwin
as usual u miss the point. the mear mention of the word "GOD" is not going to send these kids
into convultions and cause them all to run out and buy bibles. If this is the case i will meet you at a place of your choosing so you can give me all that evil "in god we trust" paper in your wallet. I am willing to make that sacrafice so you will live in a better world. hipcrite

For all of you who are trying to remove God (Jesus' father and ours) from our schools and government.......it will happen eventually. Fortunately for Christians, we will NEVER experience it, we won't be here to feel the pain. There IS only one way and it is found when you believe in Christ.
It is easier to believe now than it will be when all of us are gone and you are left with a world of non believers or those who half heartedly believe.

The blogger who said Christians should be crucified.....wow, what a testament to whom your soul belongs.

God will leave our schools, our government, our country and the world. But ONLY when He decides it is time, not any of you! You can NEVER take God away from us or us away from Him.

gfan, I have had many conversations with alcoholics. Some were practicing (read: drunk) and others have months or years of sobriety to their name. I think pleading to the humanity of a practicing alcoholic is nearly impossible. Generally speaking, an alcoholic (practicing) does not care about the effects the drinking has on others...at a point when one does begin to notice the lengths to which others are going to try to help one become sober is when that person is ready for a program with tried and true "steps", levels or other program terms which are necessary for success (or at least progress). The decision of which program is selected should be up to a well-qualified person and the substance-abusing person...not a group of haters to decide how or where to become a healthier person. right??

The right to assemble and performing religious ritual on government property are two different things. The former is allowed by the First Amendment; the latter is denied by it.

ms...sassy, it seems to me that your post roughly boils down to this:

Genuine sensitivity to the community can't be established in alcoholics because many of the people in public office are not only knuckleheads but knuckleheads who are responsible for many of the ills in our society today. And the alternative to directly focusing on the community by establishing sensitivity to fellow members of the community is best done by connecting alcoholism to the knuckleheadedness of the people in public office and by turning to a higher power for organizational guidance.

Your statement that many people feel entitled to unearned happiness is accurate; (I've been known to occasionally depend on that sort of unearned entitlement myself). But seriously, I am certain that that sense of entitlement is best alleviated by appealing to the humanity of the alcoholic by intently showing him how unhappy he is making others.

God in the picture would be a distraction. As a matter fact, anyone who can't directly achieve sensitivity to others is probably a candidate for someone we don't want hanging with god. The failure to feel empathy for others smacks of psychopathology. We are all better off when psychopaths don't have god. God would exacerbate the god stance of psychopathology.

God can be in an alcoholic's life but sensitivity to others should come first. The appeal to the alcoholic should be to feel the pain that he is causing others; and his happiness is something to be earned from a sense of accomplishment.

dumberjack, maybe you try actually reading the entire amendment and not just the part you like.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

When EVERYONE's tax dollars are stolen and used for a religion that NOT everyone believes in, you are "respecting an establishment of religion." Want to practice your religion as YOU see fit, get YOUR own money and don't steal mine.

I am not an overly religious person. to be quite truthful this day in age i don't believe in much of anything.The one thing i do believe in is the constitution of the United States.
Which if i remember correctly states "freedom of religion" not freedom from religion. As far as seperation of church and state, why is it if someone wants to put up a manger scene, or maybee do a dance to celebrate Quansa at the court house they would be promptly escorted off the grounds, yet if someone wanted to give a nazi rally or "freedom from religion" rally they have to be allowed??
If you choose to believe in a higher power i respect that and will not interfear. If you choose to believe in worms and dirt, i respect that as well. I think it is an individuals right to decide what makes him get out of bed and crawl through life each day. i respect your right to stand on a corner and tell the world your beliefs. and you had better damn well respect my right when i turn and walk away because i have better things to do. this is my individual choice. have enough respect for your children to let them decide what is right for them. stop forcing your non-religiouse beliefs down their (and my) throat.I have yet to see anyone forcing their christianity on me.I have been envited to their house of worship if i so chose. This world as well as this country are made up of a huge conglomerate of races and beliefs.maybe we sould celebrate these rather than piss and moan about them. If you don't like what this group is saying, walk away. DO NOT try to force me to walk away. If i choose to it is my decision.
Put it this way how would you like to eat oatmeal three times a day, 365 days per year?

If you need to make a difference, cook a meal for a homeless person. Help you elderly neighbor take out his trash.get a straw and start sucking some oil out of the gulf.

don't waste your life telling other people what they should believe in.

gf, of course responsibility toward the community is the ultimate goal. Not everyone agrees that that is the goal, though. Many believe that their own pleasure and/or "happiness" is the ultimate goal, neighbors be damned. It requires some organization to maintain freedom. We have example after example how we have relinquished organization for the betterment of the community to the few who don't know how to use the decisions and power effectively and now we have HUGE societal problems, increasing taxes and effective oversight is replaced by panic, due in large part to the fear of being sued by the people who shove accountability down the throats of those who are trying to be agents of change which IS for the betterment of society. I don't see it as a religious movement as much as it is an option offered to get the kids to find a way they can identify with to stay sober and become conscientious and contributing members of society once they reach adulthood (AA is ONE of several options-EACH program has benefits and flaws in their design, but EACH treatment option and self-help support group is aimed at reaching different populations in different ways).

This is just another example of right wing Christians trying to force their religious socialism on us. If you want a religious school pay for it yourselves, stop using my tax dollars and ramming your religious fraud down our throats.

Our country was based on the SECULAR idea that men can govern themselves. The very concept of democracy as opposed to the divine right of kings is from the secular enlightenment and not Christianity.

cmfnf, the trouble with god in government (let's go with the christian god for now) is that after 2000 years of christianity there are 30,000 denominations of christianity. Now add all the other religious denominations to the mix. It shouldn't be hard to imagine what all that disparity would do to a government and its people.

Democratic governments have enough trouble dealing with the mixed purposes of its people and its groups to be able to survive what religious chaos would do to it.

thekid, no offense. I had in mind Spicoli's age from 5 to 10 years-old when he was an unrepentant alcoholic. ;~)

ms...sassy, I would only replace "higher power" with "responsibility toward the community" -including self, family, and friends." I am reminded of either Max Weber or Reinhold Neihbur (I always get those two mixed-up) who said: Society is god. He meant that our cues for good behavior should come from the good behavior of people who hold society together. Ultimately, any value that religion or a belief in a "higher power" would have is that we respect our fellow humans, near and far.

So, if responsibility toward the community is the goal, why not focus on that directly? To require that alcohol be replaced with something as immaterial as god, to a large degree, would only be trading one intermediary (intermediary in the attempt to negotiate reality) for another; and we all know that belief in god doesn't always produce community-minded behavior. Much like, we all know that alcohol is mostly a mighty righteous social lubricant, we also know that as an intermediary it sometimes in some people is nothing more than an intermediary that produces anti-community-minded behavior.

Accordingly, I propose a reality based step-program that relentlessly drives home the point that alcohol abuse is harmful to the self and others and runs contrary to the betterment of the community.

I'm a little bit confused, too, since the JSD takes on the wrong issues to fight about...the same guy who says we can't fight breast cancer in the public schools by wearing tshirts promoting awareness is now going to be the curriculum director at the District level...which will also (I assume) be the ultimate party responsible for making CRES curriculum decisions....sounds like the world (or at least the JSD students) are going to be going to hell in a handbasket, since no one cares enough to stand up for the RIGHT causes and we may end up LOSING the battles (withholding proactive and healthly lifestyle information and not offering the options available in the community when an unhealthy lifestyle choice has been made) AND LOSING the war (our children; our taxes and our country's future stability). The comments were disabled on the Tshirt page, but we can still comment on this one....not sure that makes any sense. Also not sure we should continue to be bullied to make a "change" that is not only not helpful but DETRIMENTAL to people who need support the most to make the desired lifestyle changes. IMHO

Our country wasn't established to separate government and religion, but to keep government from running the religion, as it was doing in England. When one allows God to be the ruling factor in their lives, you can't keep God out of it. As a Christain, every decision I make ought to be based on what I believe AS a Christain. That IS my life. You have the freedom to worship God in your way, the god you want, or not to worship at all. But, our country WAS established with the freedom TO worship. If you want to be free from religion and all of it's effects, the Northpole is free for the taking. Feel FREE to leave.

what about the tax dollars that we will spend after we remove the program from the JSD, because finding an appropriate location will be unlikely....so the result is the teens who have alcohol and drug abuse issues will continue to be a drain on society in one form or another for the rest of his/her life. This is an absurd fight. Maybe the JSD can move the program into portions of the high schools that were just remodeled (before GM's closing and the economic downturn). This might aleve some or all of the issues....except the issue that FFRF can't see that perhaps the reason that people turn to alcohol and drugs in the first place could POSSIBLY be because their lives are empty and without purpose or direction without guidance from a higher power, no matter what one chooses to call it.....IMHO

sry i need some thc to help me focus. thats pretty funNY;)

thats pretty fun gfan;)

Yeah, that'll settle it. Let's hear from Spicoli.

Lets hear from the parents of the students. What do they think? have the students been helped with this program? Do they think there are religious undertones? Or is this as others have claimed, a big ol stunt to get the lawyers involved and tax dollars spent on any thing but education.

Now Children,

Let us try and continue our convorsation without using the name of "God". Shall we. Religion should not be involved in politics or schooling but it is. Unfortunately, even the idiots in our national treasury forgot that when they printed "In God We Trust" on our dollar bills.
This country was founded with the intent of separating religion from governement and state yet everyday these hardcore Christians think its their way or no way. I think they should be crucified.

cty35799 i have no god in my life and my soul is far from empty. its so unlike the religous to think they are the only ones who know the path...oh wait...its EXACTLY like the religous to think that. i think your god would be upset if he knew you were judging like that...

DanMan, it's not polite to call religious people gutless.

WATCH IT PEOPLE!!! Lets get along. Is it possible. I doubt it. We won't be able to carry on this discussion, the cyber-god will censor us.

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You people are gutless! Why don't you tell elliot and his commie friends to stick it!

"Put God back in to politics and our schools and watch our children and economy flourish like never before!" - cty35799
Whose God would you choose? Would you find fault if your tax dollars were paying rent for class space in Buddhist temple or an Islamic mosque? For any nation to flourish, there must be a completely secular arena (i.e. government, public schools, etc.) where discourse can occur in a rational manner free of religious bias.

Yes, and to protect religions from government interference, the government can't prefer one religion over the others. Therefore, no one religion is to be allowed in any government agency.

Our Constitution has been strategically twisted! Separation of church and state was written to protect our religious freedoms from the government! AGAIN, our founding fathers wanted to protect our freedom of choice of religion from the government!! NOT to protect our government from religion! It has been twisted by the liberals, and we just let them continue to manipulate us! AMAZING!
Put God back in to politics and our schools and watch our children and economy flourish like never before! These people, who are trying to keep God out of our life, are EMPTY SOULS and need Him more than ever!

billnewbie, your characterization of FFRF has since time immemorial been the appropriate way to describe religion -including christianity.

Also appropriate to the self-defeating effect of your post is your chronic response to religious issues here. Instead of dealing with the issue of the harm of religiosity embedded in any government agency, you deflect to an off-the-point aspect. Ultimately, your complaint is especially consistent with the chronic behavior of your fellow religionists to exploit weakness. To wit: the institutionalized practice of the Catholic Church to sexually exploit the weakness of children. And the creation of theology and theodicy to bamboozle adherents by rationalizing the barbarism and nonsense of biblical scripture.

Yours is the same old perfidy, only with a different face.

God Bless America. Amen Freakycat !!!

That's the new American way ExFIB, sue 'em into submission. The FFRF knows Janesville' school system has few resources and thus no stomach for this fight. The FFRF is confident that Janesville's school board will acquiesce to FFRF's demands rather that pay the cost of defending themselves. That's why the actions of the school board so far are not enough for the FFRF. Total submission is their goal and that is all that will satisfy them. They sense weakness, they feel strong. This tactic exposes the FFRF's true agenda which lies in their hostility to all religious belief and the people that hold them, except their own. And if the children who are being helped suffer as a result, I'm sure the FFRF will assuage whatever guilt they may feel with the rationalization that their objectives justify the means. Those children being denied the services they need are just collateral damage in their "holy war".

This is CRAZY! I know Carrie and the teacher, Jay, and neither is pushing religion on these kids. They are simply providing a safe place for kids to finish the education...with additional focus on remaining sober.
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I don't believe the location should be an issue because it is just that...the location. If this was in a building accross from the church with the only window looking directly at the cross/church wouldn't that be the same issue according to these people.
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I am all about no religion in public schools and I would bet most of what I have that NOTHING Carrie or Jay do pushes religion.
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I believe this group does good things at times but this fight...is a waste of time, energy and money for all involved.

wtp, get back to us when you claims are backed-up by a scientific poll.

Why is it always the same 5 or 6 people who make all the noise and get there way. I would bet the other 99.9% of people appreciate the fact that there is a recovery program for young adults to finish there education. These same 6 people are no better then the echo freaks in this country who make it miserable for all of us.

exFBI, cause and effect: The school caused the expense problem of its attorney.

Careful people, we need to keep our comments of anything relating to religion or politics, civil, or the invisible man in the sky (cyberspace), will not allow us to continue our discussions.

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Right, you complain about the tax payer money that goes to these programs yet you say nothing of the tax payer money that goes to the school's attorney to defend itself from these whack-jobs.

The phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" means that as a matter of law no government (federal, state, and local) can do anything that establishes a religion, whether or not the religion already exists outside of the government. Therefore:

The government can't establish a religion within a governmental agency such as a public school.

There is no law (such "law" would be illegal or unconstitutional) that allows religious practices at CRES. Therefore a religious practice at CRES is illegal and in violation of the First Amendment.

Right! Why do we have to bow to freedom from religion everytime they don't like something other people choose to do? IMO everytime the whine or complain we have to do it their way WELL they have choices to go or not to go and like what was said don't go if you don't like it as others may like it and be ok with it.

I agree!! CRES is trying to provide a service to the families of the Janesville School District, and support students in recovery, and this anti-faith group is nit-picking it to death for it's own political agenda. Let them get back to their work of providing an education to recovering Janesville students in a supportive environment instead of spinning their wheels and wasting their time answering to the manipulations of a group making accusations about wording and suggestions just to get attention for THEIR OWN (lack of) faith issues. What the taxpayers of Janesville deserve is a program like this, in a "recovery-safe" environment that isn't going to waste taxpayer and district money to relocate and re-word its program for no good reason. FFRF, find a productive use of your time and effort that will actually support the community instead of shredding it!

"freedom from religion" groups shove their beliefs (or lack there of) down people's throats worse than anyone, yet they go around accusing everyone else of doing it. How about this, if you dont like faith based schools.....Dont send your kids there? Quit trying to change everything to fit YOUR standards.