for what it's worth, I believe many people who are incarcerated cannot think for themselves and actually NEED someone to tell them what to do, where they can and cannot be, etc. As soon as they are released, many re-offend in order to get back to what they know. If you ask me, it looks like a lazy man's way, but I realize you are not asking.

Another point I feel the need to make is that as soon as juvenile laws changed to give kids the same priviliges and rights as adults, kids started getting away with whatever they felt like at the time. "You can't make me go to school." or "You can't (discipline) me or I'll sue the school." Kids have not yet earned the right to determine what is in their best interest. That is the job of the adult to establish. I think if we revamped the juvenile justice system and reversed some of the Supreme Court decisions that gave kids the right to be lazy and gave the rights back to teachers and parents to EFFECTIVELY discipline (not abuse, of course), we would see a significant change.

Jail equaling reward. I am obviously making a generalized statement. And, with experience with knowing people who have been on the frequent flier program, there is some sort of commodary among the losers who will never change. They are all in the same place, with no 'down looking' from society, they are all 'losers' and are 'cool' among their peers and sit and sip coffee and tell stories about what they have done...etc... I have a brother who came out of jail with MORE loser friends than he had prior to going in. AND idolizing them for what they have done. Jail does work for most, who have a misfortune and mess up, pay their dues and learn, but there are many (bangers, dealers etc...) who will never change, thrive on that lifestyle, and basically, it's a little party of sorts to all get together and make the most of their down time. Watch gangland. These idiots who wind up in jail, still have the ability to do hits on the streets, have rank in the prison and nothing really changes except their freedom to walk the streets.

Janesvillean, your argument that our country puts people in prison five times as much as the world average is hollow. Even those countries that incarcerate the least still do incarcerate, and for the same reasons we do. There is little else to do with the incorrigible. The question shouldn’t be why does America incarcerate so much, but rather why does America have to incarcerate so much? Is the problem in our institutions or in ourselves? If the problem is just in our institutions, then changing a few laws should do the trick. Make fewer things illegal, punish less severely, offer alternative treatment and watch the crime rate fall. One thing though, we’ve already been down that road. Throughout the late sixties and the seventies leniency was the rule. Prison terms were short and paroles easy to attain. The crime rate grew steadily. A new attitude came into being. Truth in sentencing laws, elimination of parole and a general strictness became more the norm. Even in New York City, parts of which were crime stricken hellholes, a new kind of mayor with a new attitude took over. More people went to prison and again the crime rate fell. So yes, when one compares historical records one can reasonably conclude that as prison populations increase, crime rates fall, ergo incarceration works.

As for the education qualities of punishment and whether it works, for most it does. Didn’t your parents punish you? Aren’t you a better person for it? Of course there will always be the incorrigible few for whom no punishment will ever teach anything. Most of our resources, financial and otherwise, are wasted trying to reason with these unreasonable ones. Counseling, probation, fines they never bother to pay, electronic bracelets and community service are generally wasted on such as these. They neither change these minds nor (more importantly) prevent more victims as incarceration surely does. So again I wonder, is the problem with our institutions or with ourselves that our society creates so many incorrigibles? What is it about our society that seems to nurture so many who have no respect for the law and little compassion for their fellow humanity?

Yes, I know, many will object that on the subject of illegal drug use, no one is a victim except perhaps the user who only hurts himself. If only that were true. I’m sure that many people who post here could offer anecdotal examples of the harm done to the innocent by drug users. And it does no good to point to all the harm that alcohol use causes as a rationalization of why drug use should be legal since 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Why do we want to allow even more misery for the innocent? And why should we stand by and allow our fellow humans to destroy themselves with drugs? Would we do nothing if they slit their wrists in front of us? Is it alright to do nothing if they destroy their lives much more slowly?

optimism
For most, Jail is NOT A REWARD.
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Remember, you can come up with an example for just about anything...that doesn't make it a rule for all.
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I worked in a Medium Security prison. I was interviewed at Columbia (where dahmer was). These are not great places to be.

jail isnt a reward for bad behavior. anyone who has ever been in jail would not say that. wake up one morning and not have the freedom to go anywhere and you will understand. ive been in county jail for a total of about 200 days in my younger life and smoked pot once. are drugs available in jail?? im sure more so in prison...but to say they are easier to get or that jail is a reward is just plain ignorant...no offense....

HAHA, very funny about the what jail I was in. We all know, or at least the ones who pay a tiny bit of attention, the dealers don't stop once they're off the street. But, if you choose to believe they do, so be it. I have had family in jail many times, who actually love jail....hmmmmm....he is a drug addict, a gang banger and pretty much a loser....tell me that jail isn't a reward for bad behavior?

Crime rate down - police lose some funding -- police seek legislative assistance to secure more funding == predicted crime rate increase coming soon.

well thats funny. i was serious about waiting for your reply...and really meant no negative...lame attempt maybe but it was an attempt to keep the convo light. you can run from the convo JAG...not surprised at all as that seems to be the M.O. of all those who try to discuss this with me and fail to find any logic to refute me.

thank you for adding absolutely no substance to the convo. if one person reads these, and i doubt:), its easier to get them on my team when i discuss it with closed minded people like yourself.

its also sad that you think i want drugs legalized to serve my own good. i currently smoke pot and have not run out for more than about 10 hours in almost 5 years. legal or not im gonna get it and im gonna smoke it.you should read more of my posts cuz the fact that im a free responsible american adult is only one of many reasons i want pot/drugs legalized.

do you think copperguy wants drugs legalized to serve his own good?? even tho he never has and never will use??

thekid: I see you are starting your childish remarks, once someone doesn't agree with you you say stupid things. You may say you're an adult but your "i apologize for throwing multiple questions to you at once. please take your time...i eagerly await your reply..." comment shows your real age, I'm not going round and round with someone like you, grow up and maybe i'll give you the time of day. You have a good one and don't let me catch you behind the wheel while high .... you may not like me ;)

for what its worth...just off the top of my head ive changed my opinion on the bike tunnel after listening to people discuss it. im on the fence when it comes to health care and could be swayed one way or another if there was proof vs speculation(i understand the proof will only come once the bill passes, which is ultimately why i dont care either way). i have an extremely open mind JAG, i think it makes me a better person to look at things from all sides and ask questions to clarify one side or the ohter. you...you enter these discussions and blast those of us who want the laws changed, even those like copperguy who doesnt smoke or use but has seen the waste of resources the war on drugs, specifically marijuana is.

ive provided a few links to support my side and you refuse to even look at them. im not saying poof you have to agree with me...but dont you think an opinion is MORE valid if you look at it from both sides?? basically what you are saying is that you have an opinion and even in the face of info to the contrary you are not going to change. worse...you wont even read the new info. how is that an adult convo or an informed opinion??

legalization is not the only thing im open to. its not my way or the highway. i believe it should be legal/taxed/regulated similar to alcohol but im open to giving me a ticket for possession, similar to speeding and im actually open to it being illegal if THE PEOPLE would vote that way.

click on that first link and you will see, even tho you may still think its dumb, you will see that people of status in the community agree with me that adults should have the right to choose(it actually wasnt my idea;). click on the second link and you will see that drug usage has actually declined in portugal where they decriminalized all drugs in 2001. how do you explain that??

im at work so im not yet partaking in relaxing with a plant...but i do have a beautiful girlfriend waiting with some beautiful buds when i do make it home;)

thekid: you can send as many questions as you like but i'd hate to take away from your toke time .. so please you take your time, wouldn't want you doing too many things at once, you might forget to flick that ash ....

The only suggestion you are open to is legalizing drugs, that's not very open minded just your way or the highway. You think me reading something you point out and poof i'll say you were right all along? not going to happen and also, we aren't talking about people using in their own house and arresting them, it's the drug dearlers, the ones who drive while high, I say arrest them all day long 24/7, make them wonder who is knocking on their door, friend foe or cop. It makes me sick to see and hear of all the people getting killed here and in mexico just so scum can make a buck selling IILEGAL drugs and to hear that lame line on "legalize drugs and it won't happen anymore", if that's your suggestion i'm sure it's only to serve your good.

i apologize for throwing multiple questions to you at once. please take your time...i eagerly await your reply...

justaguy: i understand you think to allow adults the right to choose drugs is 'stupid', but what if there was proof that it actually worked??

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/...

still a stupid idea??

im not saying that you DID say you had the answer. you dont mind telling people they DONT have the answer, i thought maybe you had some better ideas. we have the problems you listed NOW. do you suggest we do nothing or just continue on a path that has obviously failed??

i called the troll a troll cuz he DOES say the same thing over and over and over and over. disagree w me all you want at least ill answer questions and try to discuss things. sure i call names, but at least im open to suggestions unlike many people on here, yourself included. why wont you click on that link?? afraid to learn something new??

maybe legalizing all drugs isnt the answer...but neither is arresting adults who want to use them. how do you explain the drug usage among teens in holland(where pot is legal) being lower than that in the u.s??

To legalize all drugs surely won't fix it but did I ever say I had an answer to that? You also asked about people who still make/traffic illegal booze and I answered that, big diff or not and I'm not going to that link, makes no diff what it's about. You call people that don't agree with you a bunch of trolls with the same point over and over and over again, boy that sounds just like you but you by far are the biggest troll, people don't agree with you and in time you start to insult them and call them names, i'm sure i'll start hearing them too as you've done so many times before. Drugs aren't legal and doing NOTHING other than to make them legal? ya right

optimism: if you dont mind me asking...what jail system were you in??

one more thing justaguy. minors are currently smoking pot, and people who cant afford it now will steal to get it. how do YOU suggest we fix the problems??

Rock county, has always and will always be a drug highway. This is never going to stop, and now with industrialism down, it is only going to get worse, and with all the people unwilling to pay taxes, or unable, crime will take over as it is. People, wake up. NOTHING, is going to make this better until the bottom is up and these users all kill themselves by overdose. You think just because someone is behind bars they aren't still dealing or using? Uh um....think again. It is easier to deal on the inside then the out.....what needs to be done first and foremost is these loser parents who pass along loser lifestyles need to give their children up, and ruin their OWN lives with their using and be a big enough person to let the cycle end. Until the cycles are over, there will never be clean streets. And it is easier for the cycle to continue because bad behavior is rewarded .... in this day..... the poor picked on me's of the world....always someone else's fault.

im sure some still make booze if their counties are dry. uncle jesse brewing some moonshine is dift than organized crime(al capones) trafficking in tax free profits. big diff actually. im ok with dry counties. at least the people decided to make the county dry and not the federal govt. if uncle sam would follow the 10th amendment and let the states decide, and the people voted to keep marijuana illegal i would say that at least the people decided. id still smoke of course:) but at least it would be decided by the people.

of course those negative things will still happen. they happen with other currently legal drugs. that doesnt mean adults who smoke pot responsibly should be arrested for it same as adults who use legal drugs as intended now arent arrested for using it. why does it matter to you so much if adults smoke pot?? do you REALLY think arresting them and incarcerating them is a good way to spend money??

you never told me your opinion that link either sir...

Some still do make illegal booze, I think we still have a dry state/county or two. If you think to legalize drugs will stop the problems we have it won't work, you'll still have the underaged that will want drugs, you'll still have the people who can't buy it so they'll still steal for it ... if you think i'll stand by legalizing pot/drugs just so the potheads can smoke it legaly dream on .......

if thats the dumbest thing youve ever heard...would you classify these people as dumb for believing the same thing??

http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

ha. yer funny justaguy:) im aware of how they actually got al capone in jail. how many people today make/traffic alcohol illegally??

Legalize all drugs? the dumbest thing i've ever heard ... and it was capone not paying taxes that put him behind bars not legalizing booze.

justaguy: i dont think that westorbust, or anyone against the war on drugs, wants to do nothing. we could legalize all drugs and that would put the gangs out of business, same as re-legalizing alcohol put al capone out of business. we could then use that money in a drug education program for high schools vs arresting adults who are OBVIOUSLY going to use whether its illegal or not. what do you think of that plan??

i have no problem arresting and incarcerating criminals to try and 'educate' them. if youve never been in jail you cant even comprehend how that 'education' involves how to become a better criminal, but thats besides the point. there are anywhere from 20 to 50 million people who smoke marijuana in a given year. they ALL KNOW they are breaking the law. most of those people are probably just like me. kids. family. jobs. house. bills....and it just so happens they like to smoke marijuana. THEY ARE NOT CRIMINALS AND THOSE PEOPLE BELONG NO WHERE NEAR A JAIL CELL. holier than thou trolls who post the same point over and over and over and over because they have NOTHING ELSE should feel guilty for thinking their cubs dont stink and that they SHOULD be arrested for an 'education'.

billnewbie, this country puts people in prison FIVE TIMES as much as the world average. We have the largest prison population per capita.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pr...
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Is this "punishment" working? Is the "removal" working? Is the "education" you speak of working? What is so great about the current system given our current level of crime? Why do law enforcement professionals look to alternative sentencing if they believe the current system is working so well and financially sustainable?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...

westorbust: So you think we should just do nothing? Let the drugs and gangs take over? and then we'll have you pissing and moaning bcuz you have drug dealers and gangs living next door to you ... it's you that needs to WAKE UP

Some may not be aware of this truism or may reject it out of hand since it's not PC, but punishment is education. It may be the only form of education that works with people who have no respect for the law, particularly those who feel no compunction about disobeying laws they find to be inconvenient towards the lifestyle they choose to live. For them, punishment may be the only treatment that has any effect on their behaviors.

It's not surprising that some have complained about our nation's incarceration rate due no doubt to yet another truism that escapes the attention of many. That when we lock up our criminals they aren't available to commit more crimes, therefore the crime rate falls. And since our legal system bends over backwards to find reasons to plea bargain and offers social services as alternatives to punishment to offenders, those who actually end up in prison are the ones who've used up their allotment of second chances and have earned their terms behind bars well beyond whatever they were sentenced to.

lets really punish these types of idiots who break laws. Only to get out and break more laws.. Why? Because apparently their punishment the first time around was not harsh enough.
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Have you ever spent time in a prison? Seriously, as a visitor, guard, social worker, custodian, teacher, administrator, etc...
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I have, and it is a harsh enough punishment. Not one offender that I talked with while in prison wanted to or planned to break the law again. They all had a plan to get a job and stay away from trouble.
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What happened? No excuses but I am telling you part of why so many return to prison. This is part of the reason and excuses no one from breaking the law after getting out. This is not a liberal, bleeding heart excuse but what I saw time after time.
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The person is locked up for a time, perhaps works in prison, attends school, groups, etc... They stay out of trouble and might even tutor younger inmates.
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When released they are returned to the same house, street, neighborhood that they caused all the trouble in. If they were gang involved, the gang is right there, drug involved (dealer, the users are right there, user the dealer is right ther). Oh and BTW, they have a P.O. on them. Visiting their job and in their life.
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This would be stressful for anyone and many simply can handle it. Do you know if someone fails to pay their bills they can be locked up again? Let's say the guy used to deal. He gets out, has a job but isn't making enough. He is facing jail unless he makes more money QUICKLY. This is real, does he take the chance and steal or deal again or just quietly go to jail for not paying his restitution.
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This is exactly why they go back to the same house and neighborhood. What other option is ther? None make enough to live independently and few could find an alternative placement. Heck, in Milwaukee, the half-way house is in the middle of the "bad" neighborhood.
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The system does need to be looked at. Criminals, especially violent criminals need to be locked up for long period of time.
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BTW, calling me an idiot. The article is about Jville gang activitiy and drug activity and you suggested cutting off arms. When I suggested education, related to this article you played the "sensitive" card and brought up rape. I guess OVER EXAGGERATION IS JUST WHO YOU ARE...true?

whythink- ok ummm, idiot..lol.. Do you really think I meant that literally? But guess it got your attention- but YES, lets really punish these types of idiots who break laws. Only to get out and break more laws.. Why? Because apparently their punishment the first time around was not harsh enough. Is that better for your sensitive side for the criminals out there selling drugs to kids, raping, beating?? Gosh, I hope so.

could someone please provide a link to a drug dealer who got a 'slap on the wrist'?? i mean i know it happens with child molesters and drunk drivings but ive sort of been out of the drug knowledge loop. your help is appreciated

whythink im aware its still illegal. my kids dont know i break the law and quite honestly when they become adults, if its a law they dont believe in, that HURTS NO ONE when they break it, i will be more proud of them for standing up for what they believe in than cowering to the fear of arrest.

I don't support any money going to support drug enforcement. The "war on drugs" was lost long ago, we just perpetuate the bureaucracy and justify public servant salaries.

No law will ever stop or deter people from doing drugs. Gangs evolved because of the drug culture and the illegalities of it.

Wake up.

mickie
Mar 18, 2010 at 11:14 a.m.
Suggest removal How about some real punishment for the criminals.. Lets adopt some of the harshest, like some other countries instead of a slap on the butt and then sending them back into population again. Bet if you lost a hand for theft you would only have 1 more chance to lose the other. A lot of our troubles stem from our own ridiculous court systems, and what we do with criminals etc..
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Heck, let's go back to the good old days where men could beat their wives too. Bet a meal wouldn't be cold then. IDIOT!
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Chopping off hands "like other countries" is not a good move. Education, enforcement and more education. We might not be able to save this current generation but we cannot give up on the next generation.
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Janesville, Beloit and Rock County are not so full of drugs and gangs that it cannot be stopped...not yet. These communities need to fight back with education and enforcement. Yes kid, that means any illegal drug use. Until it is legal, we cannot condone it by ignoring it. When as adults, we pick and choose what laws are worth following we teach the kids to do the same...the results of that are dangerous.
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It isn't too late...there are already good people working extremely hard to fight these issues. We need more good people to join the fight (even if they disagree with some of it) or things will get worse.

How about some real punishment for the criminals.. Lets adopt some of the harshest, like some other countries instead of a slap on the butt and then sending them back into population again. Bet if you lost a hand for theft you would only have 1 more chance to lose the other. A lot of our troubles stem from our own ridiculous court systems, and what we do with criminals etc..

First things first, Mr. Spoden, you need a more recent picture. This one isn't bad, but it is getting old. Second, I agree, this amount of money will not help as much as we all would like it to. Third, Janesville and Beloit are so full of drugs and crime, how are they going to stop it? They are not! JMO

It still will not matter because the courts let evry drug dealer, manufacturer and user out. It is the judges and the courts that have become so liberal. If they would truley get punished instead of a slap on the wrist they might not use, sell or manufacture the next time.

I agree, this is trumped up to look good. Too bad the real flow of things is not discovered by the public. A very partisan grouping affect here eh? This amount of money will not help much anyway in the grand scheme.
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I have an idea! How about if the departments start letting their officers do their jobs correctly and they will have more opportunity to make these arrests. Continued specialized training coupled with patrol tactics. It wouldn't hurt also if they stopped getting buy with minimal staffing.

Sarah, I think the City of Beloit isn't included because they have their own drug task force, or somehing like that. The smaller departments are included in with Rock County because they aren't big enough to have a task force and having the input from smaller departments helps all of Rock County. I think.

frogger, how did you infer that? I don't see an attitude from HER.

What about between Rock and ROCK county????

I see biggirl still has a problem with law enforcement. "Couldn't some of this money be spent on other more positive things that would prevent kids from starting drugs in the first place?"

Some decent parenting would be a good start!
Like they have mentioned lately. Lock up the meds!
I do agree some after school programs or something.

Because it came here, it'$ not "Pork"

Yes. men in suits will tell us how to end the drug problem.

Meanwhile, thousands of infants were prescribed Prozac in the last year.

Fight the drug war *snort*

why would we spend socialist like money on health care when we can instead use it to incarcerate more adults!!

you better start hiding al capone...uncle sam is coming for you!!

DRUGS AND GANGS IN JANESVILLE O NO just can't be true,LOL.

Keep in mind the Dept. of Justice has a Anti-Legalization policy. Any State that passes laws to make marijuana legal, will lose funding.

These are law enforcement grants from the Justice Department. As such, they will focus on ... law enforcement. Rock County does have a drug court and is using that to engage with alternative solutions.

A somewhat misleading title. Is the only way that the so-called drug problem to be addressed is through enforcement? Couldn't some of this money be spent on other more positive things that would prevent kids from starting drugs in the first place?

Seems like a double edged sword, doesn't it?
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Atleast someone is FINALLY acknowledging the problems in Janesville and the rest of the county!