I find it really odd to be challenged by the very people - veterans - who should know better than anyone that members of the military are not "normal citizens." In fact, they should stand proudly by that assertion. It almost makes you wonder if they ever read or understood their contracts, which basically state that they are property of the United States government while in service. That is not an "opinion," but a fact that hardly results from "bias."
"Military life is fundamentally different from civilian life. The military has its own laws, rules, customs, and traditions, including numerous restrictions on personal behavior, that would not be acceptable in civilian society." - http://dont.stanford.edu/regulations/130...
http://www.mepcom.army.mil/publications/...

So sad you are this secluded from laws.

"The members of the military are normal citizens..."
.
False.

"DiGrizz, I thought you were a service member? Aren't you supposed to support the Commander in Chief?"
-
Dale, it is unforunate you don't understand the military and its role in government. The members of the military are normal citizens and they are allowed to vote, they don't all vote for the current sitting president---this also means they don't always support him. Looks like only you are surprized by this.

"The premium reduction of 14 percent to 20 percent that Obama cites would apply only to a portion of the people buying coverage on their own — those who decide they want to keep the skimpier kinds of policies available today."
.
Wait... so because, in the future, most people likely won't CHOOSE to keep the type of "skimpy" (bravo for objectivism!) coverage they can afford to have now, and instead will CHOOSE a plan offering MORE BENEFITS that are ALLOWED BY THIS LEGISLATION, thus obviously raising their premiums (although offset, and even reduced, by subsidies)... that's Obama's fault?
I see.

dalegribble, where do you get your information? This is latest from the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

Thirty states and the District of Columbia recorded over-the-month
unemployment rate increases, 9 states registered rate decreases, and
11 states had no rate change, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
reported today. Over the year, jobless rates increased in all 50
states and the District of Columbia.

Black, White, or Martian...
You elect a Chicago Machine Politician, and then you're surprised when he lies, cheats, and steals? Would you be surprised if a skunk stunk?

Geez, Id like to see one of these real people dalegrible is talking about to. Will we see this person or persons in the white house in 2013? I hope we can weather the current storm until then without any irreparable damage. I cant believe I voted for this lying piece of garbage.

dump Obama and everything he stands for? Do you mean like preventing insurance companies from refusing coverage because of a pre-existing condition, not allowing them to drop people's coverage should they become sick or setting a limit on how much a life is worth? yea, those are pretty horrible thing s to stand for. Presisent Obama is the first President that we have had in decades who actually stands up for the people. I am so sick of corporate america controlling every aspect of our lives. Yes we need to take our country back, not from government but from Corporations and lobbyist. Wake up people.

We need to dump Obama and everything he has done and will do and everything he stands for. I NEVER thought I would see such a dumbass running this great country. What has happened to us? We are scared to death to speak out against such a traitor as obama obviously is. Wake up people!! We are headed for a govt. run country as germany was under Hitler. Get rid of obama now and take russ fiengold with him!!

good idea pasta...unfortunately theyd probably arrest me for selling a 'controlled substance' before i had a chance to make a law that would control the controlled substance:)

Will "Herb" Kohl be a candidate?

Say Kidd, if your first fundraiser is a bake sale, I'll take a whole sheet!
RAmen

i know raf...thats why i am considering announcing my candidacy for president of the united states of america in 2012. bring logic back to d.c., free the plant, and vote thekid in 2012!!

Jaxxi the answer sits with your elected representatives. The tax credits you refer to are voted on by both houses of congress and the president. The only way this will stop is to elect people who don't support these actions. With the current two party system I don't foresee any of this changing...

This doesnt have alot or anything, really, to do with the Health Care Bill, however it has everything to do with government spending and taxes that us working citizens have to pay. So can anyone answer this question for me? How is it that a person that is on Medicaid, WICC and gets housing allowances and probably every other free goverment program...also gets a $9000 - $11,000 REFUND for income tax and they havent worked a SINGLE day in a year??? How does that work? It just makes it so the poor stay poor - why would they work? ugh..

Kid I agree, but using logic is not how politicians work.

"the Government run healthcare just like RAF gets"
-
This is called slander you troll. I do have access to the VA, that I don't use.

Unlike trolls like you that whimper and whine about wanting the government to give you something, I use purchased health insurance through my current employer. I could sit back with my hands out, like you, and expect someone else to provide my care but I don't.

"30% disability for being hurt in the military during peace time, they receive $1200 month"
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Listen libtard, you can say all the loony crap you want but if you are going to start misleading people about veterans benefits I am going to call you out for the lying fool you are. You are a despicable partisan person who attempted to denigrate service members then provide inaccurate information to make yourself sound important.

Not only did you lie about benefits received you must also have lied about working with these people. If you did work with them you would know the truth. Pitiful!!!

http://www.vba.va.gov/bln/21/rates/comp0...

you all make me chuckle:) legalize marijuana...we'd be happy to pay for everyones health care...

Complete a sentence? Spell a few wrong words and lookout, but that’s alright!! Typical republican rush listener, when one of your family members are in grave health and they need gov assistance for something make sure you call Paul Ryan or Rush and they can help you out, I work with hypocrites’ like you whom are on VA assistance, kids go to school on the tax payers money because they have 30% disability for being hurt in the military during peace time, they receive $1200 month and free healthcare!! yes you guessed it from the Government run healthcare just like RAF gets… but if all you republicans like to whine and whine and just love the 2 trillion dollar war that your party got us into, then you deserve everything in life that comes your way my friends. Gotta go rush is coming on and I can’t miss what he says today! Hopefully he is on his way overseas for a heart transplant.

They do have similar english language skills.

republiberal if you try your statement again in English I would gladly respond to any question or statement you might have...that is understandable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcO...

Obama in his own words telling us he will eliminate private insurance.

retired airforce... you allready have gov healthcare.. if you really are a veteran.. I dont think so, as one myself you views are that of a moron that retired after 20 yrs at pay grade e-4 because you were kicked out of the airforce. Premiums have been on the rise for the last 8 yrs nothing different.

roe vs. wade = women all across America were whining: "don't you DARE tell me what I can and can't do with my body!"
+
+
Obamacare 2010 = the SAME women along with men of the same level of intelligence are whining: "please, tell me what I can and can't do with my body"
LET'S ALL SAY IT TOGETHER: IGNORANT HYPOCRITES!

"how is your pricing scheme going to work? They can simply put something in your contract that will say prices vary. And then bill you whatever they want after the fact. What naive world do you live in?"
-
What? Since when is medical services purchased under a contract with varying rates?

To make it simple for you. It should be no more complicated than buying a pair of glasses. When you walk into a place for service prices are posted, if you don't like the price shop somewhere else---the same as the rest of our economy works. I guess expecting a self confessed socialist to identify with consumerism is impossible.

DizzyGirl can repeat lyrics from a has been rock band. Amazing. That combined with acting dumb should get you a job..mmm..in the military. Nice to know my tax dollars are subsidizing ignorance.

RAF, how is your pricing scheme going to work? They can simply put something in your contract that will say prices vary. And then bill you whatever they want after the fact. What naive world do you live in?

It is what it is and always will be:

Democrats for the working man
Reublicans for big business

you choose, it is your life.
A leopard can't change his spots no matter how hard he tries.

Darwin1 if you understood completive pricing you would not be confused over it.

Other than healthcare there is no other market, I can think of, where a product or service is purchased without knowing the cost. Even using the loose comparison of auto insurance correctly, following an accident, estimates are usually required from more than once source; the cost is known before repairs are made.

The absence of price controls allows the insurance company to drive customers to a service provider; this does not contain costs it only rewards pricing agreements made between the insurance companies and billing agencies of the medical service.

True open markets control prices by selling goods/services at a price point that attracts consumer dollars, those that don’t compete on price might survive on service, or they won’t survive at all. Medical HSA’s have shown this works.

Darwin1, you are 100% wrong on this point. The principle of market forces on pricing is pure science. I was able to explain this concept to my teenager in 5 minutes. Like a religious fanatic, your dogmatic belief system is blinding you to reality.

RAF, I understand the illusion of competitive pricing but for health care it is just that an illusion. Health care isn't like hamburgers. You can't return a triple bypass, you can't then go somewhere to have it redone. This is why cost-effectiveness, which is something Republicans proposed, is a very good idea - it uses science.

DizzyG, I know you are a genius at writing mindless drivel.

Gary, have you looked at the rate of Medicare increases? For you to state that insurance rate increases, in the pretense they are evil, and not recognize all costs have gone up is a disingenuous position through partisan eyes.

The answer is not in who pays the bill it is how much the bill is. Until competitive pricing controls are substituted for the political game of we care more so vote for us....nothing will change.

"Does anyone honestly believe that insurance premiums will not rise if this bill does not pass?"

Of course they will, Garyprimer! But, premiums will rise at an even steeper rate if this bill DOES pass. This is where the bill's proponents are being hoodwinked.

Does anyone honestly believe that insurance premiums will not rise if this bill does not pass? Get your heads out in the sunlight. At a conservative rate of 8-10% per year under the current system, it doesn't take a math major to figure out that it won't be long before your health insurance premiums for a year will cost more than the average house does today. I guess that you are all planning on getting some very generous pay raises over the next ten to twenty years.

darwin is delusional. His comedic rants offer no value. The best part is when other wingers grab on to his comments and cheer for him....a double delight.

Let's see DizzyGirl can rhyme with his rhyming dictionary and quotes Rage Against the Machine - three chords and some rhymes doesn't take genius. You called Obama a liar for a twenty year war that hasn't happened yet - talk about a lie. We now know why you joined the military - you are ignorant like the rest of the brown shirted thugs surrounding you. However, to your credit they can't quote anything but Glenn, Rush or some other talk radio Fox news fraud. You're wasting your time defending a country you neither love or respect. Your talking about a future election that hasn't happened yet because your too busy undermining the election that already happened. If Republicans win some seats in the next election, we can just ignore them because they will lose the election after that. Nice logic.

Who are you people going to elect? Mark Neumann, a former government employee, who associates himself with the Clinton surplus? I didn't like Bush, but the Constitution says he gets four years so I respected that regardless of his poll ratings. Obama wasn't even in office and the right wing crazies were calling him a terrorist and not a citizen.

Obama is a joke, His health care reform is a joke. <----period
.
I would elaborate but it just angers me every time i think about this joke of a president.

Project that $100 million cost across all employers big and small and we will be seeing more job loss, more production sent to China, Mexico, India, Vietnam. Hell, Canada will look like a bargain. I am seriously thinking of turning in a portion of my 401k, selling my house and buying some land so I can try to sustain myself by growing my own food. I also need a higher capacity assault rifle to protect those crops.

Great stuff, DiGriz! You should be writing song lyrics.

According to Caterpillar, Inc., Obamacare would increase their healthcare costs by $100 million in the first year alone: http://www.chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2...

WE voted the President into office. I know that lacking any education, you dimwits may not know about voting and that crazy complicated process is probably too much for your little brains. I mean you people don't even understand how the courts or the Constitution works. Hopefully, once this is passed you will all be taxed to death and Rush will leave the country, which is reason enough to vote on it.

Let's see how have the Republicans helped business? They invaded a Middle Eastern country, which destabilized oil prices and sent gas to $3 a gallon thereby sucking up all that disposable income that could have gone into our economy. Talk about killing jobs.
So, your answers would be NO. The military has never prevented, stopped or repulsed an attack. Way to waste taxpayer money.

China invade Taiwan that was funny. With the Navy they don't have?
Russia couldn't make toilet paper but somehow managed to make thousands of missiles that can get out of their silos wouldn't this contradict the Conservative belief that socialism and communism are failures?
Even Castro himself said that he would never attack America because Texans are crazy - not the military.

Funny thing, the only way a company is going save 3 grand is not buy insurance and instead pay the fine...come to think of it, thats the end game the president and the dems are focused on anyway.

"Saying that because they didn't attack the military prevented it is the dumbest thing I have ever heard."
-
Easy to understand how something so simple in concept is over your lowly researching head.

"Life insurance covers a one time event"
-
Yes, it is priced and sold that way. The reason it works proves your earlier statement false. Try again.

Darwin1- Whatever you are smoking or drinking I would stop now. You are either stoned or have the reasoning of a two year old.

So they attacked and were repulsed by our great military? No! Saying that because they didn't attack the military prevented it is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. You proved nothing with nothing - good job at nothing. Mr. Wastethetaxpayersmoney.

"The founding fathers were willing to pay for liberty with their lives"
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Yes they did, not with hands out asking others to pay for it for them.

"Conservatives don't want to pay for anything. So, the idea that they care about the country is absurd."
-
The ill informed continue to spout false statements. Name any conservative that doesn't want to pay their own way? The idea of not caving in on a bad plan shows most conservatives and level thinking individuals understand the cost structure this will impose against our country---that is caring for the country, not wanting to place another bad program on the backs of its citizens.

"the point of insurance is to deal with risk which is why you have to have everyone in, otherwise, it doesn't work."
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Darwin, your points are baseless.

If insurance needs all in to work, why does life insurance work...not everyone has it.

If insurance needs all in to work, why did auto insurance work just fine before mandated coverage for all?

Try getting information through object learning and not a talking point from a website or news source.

DizzyGirl, you are a dimwit and a fraud. You say nothing while making crazy accusations. Hitler? You resorted to Hitler. Too bad the right wing is so good at undermining democracy and dictating to the majority what they want.

Again, the point of insurance is to deal with risk which is why you have to have everyone in, otherwise, it doesn't work. You forgot that part in your analysis. Other countries would make better comparisons. Comparing waiting periods without hard numbers is misleading. How long is the waiting period? Have waiting periods gone down? So, it is ok to let people die in emergency rooms so long as you get to see a doctor right away? Way to think only of yourself. Everything has trade offs. We already have waiting periods. It usually takes two months for me to see a doctor now.

The founding fathers were willing to pay for liberty with their lives, Conservatives don't want to pay for anything. So, the idea that they care about the country is absurd.

Exactly right, Vatoloco. Product development and manufacturing is where I learned that truth. Every minute spent on clarifying the goal will pay back ten-fold later.

Twelve minutes with Paul Ryan and Charlie Rose yesterday, March 18th:

http://www.charlierose.com/view/intervie...

It will indeed leave a scar, DiGriz. It is almost certain to collapse the entire system. Some hope for just such a collapse because they believe that will usher in the era of universal single-payer healthcare.

Whomever we elect in November should be given the mandate to not only shovel this crap (if it passes) off the manure pile but all the rest of the old crap beneath it that has caused and continues to cause the extreme cost inflation all of us are dealing with today.

"So, I disagree that doing something right takes longer that doing something wrong. In my experience, doing something wrong usually takes longer because the mistake will need to be undone and then redone properly.'

I got you FOTH-From a manufacturing persective, you build the product right the first time. I used to hear prouduction managers say, "Just send defected product into the other department, let them sort it out over there just as long our production numbers are good."
Weeks later, the machine shop was paying people overtime to fix bad product. What a waste of capital.

"So going and getting an education, taking the risks to be self employed and creating something. Creating the American dream. Reaping the rewards and perks. Working hard. Everyone should share that right?"

Spark-This is the basis of the left's thinking. Why should they work hard when we have a government to depend on. Like Dennis Prager said,"The bigger the government, the less significant the citizen -- especially men.

http://www.dennisprager.com/columns.aspx...

madsintst: In terms of process, a free market is analogous to an ecosystem, due to the evolutionary advantages of diversity. The pending healthcare bill is like simultaneously engineering the genes of every species in an entire ecosystem without understanding the precise function of those genes or the intricate interrelationships of the species involved. The main difference between biological evolution and intelligent problem solving is whether the changes are being made randomly or rationally.

Step one of a rational, incremental approach to healthcare reform would be reaching consensus on the definition of the problem to be solved. Step two would be gaining a thorough understanding of the problem's causality chain. This is how every successful business, every scientist and every person with common sense operates. In contrast, our government prefers to address symptoms not problems, thereby skipping steps one and two entirely. Their proposed "solution" will make our current healthcare system much, much worse. It will be like a wrapping an infected wound with yet another layer of bandages. Gangrene will follow.

So, I disagree that doing something right takes longer that doing something wrong. In my experience, doing something wrong usually takes longer because the mistake will need to be undone and then redone properly. Evolution is self-correcting; government is not. (Yeah, I realize this has been a metaphor stew but trust you'll still get my drift. :~)

Mads -- The problem with a massive change is that you can create a massive problem, one which you may never recover from or that could have lasting unimplied negative effects.

So -- what we have currently, is a system that works, menaing it provides desirable healthcare to those requiring treatment. There are issues with the system, you can always discuss the severity of the issues. But massive change creates a new set of problems, not necesarily solving the original problems and most likely creating significantly worse.

Incremental change is always the best path when applying process changes, where measured results of the change can be an indicator of what the change did. You should be looking forward, so you are not making changes based upon where you are today, but where you want to be tomorrow.

madsintst the government has tweaked on Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid for years are they perfect? Are they funded? Are they within the budget estimates of when they were proposed?

These programs are some of the strongest reasons to get the program right from the start. After all, collecting taxes for something that doesn't begin for 3-4 years shows there is nothing in the program now that is rushed anyway...besides the vote.

"people can leave the state if they don't like the plan"
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You have struck gold here and don't even know it...

That is the basic concept voters do not understand. The states are the ones that SHOULD be setting up programs that state voters want. When you don't like a program you can move to get away from it.

When the federal government takes it over you lost any option at all...

Darwin you have no concept of economics or numbers in general when it comes to healthcare. The state (Mass) dropped to last in the country for longest wait times for care---after requiring all have insurance. The state climbed highest in the country in health care costs---after requiring all have insurance. What is so hard to understand about this?

Do some digging, after all you say you're a researcher, and look up the numbers and facts for yourself.

"extrapolation would be inappropriate because state lines are porous"
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What? Regulation confines the purchased product to state boundaries....try again.

See, spelling error...republicans. That's what I get...

So I take it you're supporting my argument, Fool, since evolution takes MILLIONS of years to get something right, and then it's never really perfect, cause we're continuously evolving. Or are you just saying if we leave it up to republicas we may have health care figured out in a few million years.

(damn, I responded almost immediately. I hope I make sense?)

Make a small change and then test the results is good summary of the process of biological evolution.

thats a good post madsintst

darwin1 - Fact. Mass planned failed miserably. You can sit and post your population percentage crap trying to make it sound better, but it doesn't matter. It failed. It will also fail the Country if things aren't changed in the plan. You're going to sit and deny that it's not going to cost everyone? Wow, you should run for office. Nobody is denying health care needs to change, but the current plan has major flaws. Walk before you run.
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You can sit and bash people that have been successful and spew your "I don't have it they shouldn't have it either attitude". That is pure jealously and a pure socialist attitude. Like I said, I didn't turn this into a party favor debate. I know a lot more about running a business than you think.
-
Take a risk and either fail or succeed. If you succeed reap the benefits. The beauty of America. And like your comment about those leaving that are well off, you should think about the same. But to a different Country if you don't like it here.

Ez, I saw this comment yesterday, but instead of responding almost immediately with something completley unsubstantiated (which seems to be pretty popular here-on both sides of the argument) I decided to think it through, and while in the shower this morning(where everybody does their best thinking) I think I came up with a strong argument against your "Small change..measure results...small change...measure results" approach. And that is, it's inefficient. It could take 20,30, 50 years to find the right program, or most likely combination of programs that will be the most effective.

That's why, in my opinion, a comprehensive bill, that tries all these changes at once is the best way to go. That way you can see right away which programs work and which ones don't. Also, the money you invested on the programs that don't work will be made up immediately through the programs that do work.

Another thing that's great about legislation is that it's not set in stone. Once in law it can be tweaked and modified, hopefully for the better. But if there's no law, there's nothing to build from. Unfortunately, some of the tweaks and modifications will come while republicans are in power, which may weaken the program to a point that, despite how popular it may become, people will be calling for it's dismantling. Believe me, republicans have experience in that realm, just look at what they did to Medicare and Social Security.

spark, you just keep repeating the same old ignorant rhetoric which you clearly did not come up with on your own. I provided you with several clear examples of how business is benefited by government and socialist programs and your answer is to pretend they don't exist? Clearly, you don't run a business.

No RAF, extrapolation would be inappropriate because state lines are porous. People can leave. So, the healthiest most well off people can leave the state if they don't like the plan. Thereby negating the concept of group risk. Also, our entire population is 318 million, Mass represents 2% of the population. Extrapolation is only useful when subjects have been selected blindly at random and there is a control group that has been selected the same way.

ha pastafarian you may be right:)

i asked the mystic ball 'will the health care bill destroy america??' and the mystic ball said. yes. however to get more research i also shook my magic 8 ball and it told me 'maybe'...so who knows what scientific data to believe...

i know spark. just jokin back:) i assume someone is buying groceries on the island so it might not be as bad as you think;)

Kidd, Maybe Ez did his research here?
www.mysticalball.com/

ya, it was a joke.

thanx spark. i really dont care about the groceries cuz thats as relevant to this topic as the insanely good marijuana they grow out there. i asked about the health care out there.

but anyone who doesnt agree w you is a dolt??

i want to change the constitution?? please show me where i said that cuz i know you wouldnt just assume things cuz thats what fear mongers do. im actually a big believer in honoring what the hemp paper constitution says. you should read some of my other posts.

i appreciate that you have an opinion. mine does not difffer greatly from you cuz i really dont have one. im truly trying to form one on health care. your analogy stated that we are going the wrong direction but we are close to our destination and you never answered how that is possible, or how that would work. im not trying to dispute everything you say, as i said, im trying to form an opinion. your analogy also had the president driving a car into oncoming traffic to crash and burn. fear mongering. did you miss the direct question i asked you about that too?? is there a chance the president will actually navigate thru that traffic and we will come out EXACTLY where we need to be?? especially since using YOUR analogy mr obama has apparently steered the car in the right direction.

kid - don't know about hawaii's health care, but the cost of groceries will break you regardless.

Kid -- you just don't get it.

If someone disgrees and ststes takes a counter position without specifics its fear mongering to you. If they provide specific data, you either pull different data or dispute the source of the data or its meaning. My point is the people on this board and in our government take a position based upon a pre-disposition driven by ideologies that they subscribe to.

Given that -- what I state is based upon information and research, but is a summary of the analysis. So say what you want, the reality is I trust neither side and have formulated my own opinions. The fact that you can even express them is a reflection of t he constitution that you and others seek to interpret and change. You will do so to your own peril and will question what happended when standing naked in a field.

i see. so your analogy was fear mongering. got ya.

anyone know anything about hawaii's health care?? ive heard good things but would rather read slanted opinions than research for myself i guess;)

The issue is what we have is imperfect, but you dont through the entire system out which is what I see happening. You make small changes, measure the results, make additional changes, measure the results. It becomes incremental change as opposed to life altering, which destroys the good with the bad. The only reason to through the entire system out is based upon an ideology that has specific motives. There are significant negatives to additional regulation or government control, which I also see as unconstitutional.

Darwin - Again. So going and getting an education, taking the risks to be self employed and creating something. Creating the American dream. Reaping the rewards and perks. Working hard. Everyone should share that right? Sure, as long as they do the same work and earn it themselves. Otherwise, I don't think so. THIS IS AMERICA!

"Yes, because Mass doesn't have the Economies of Scale that the nation does. Not a good example for extrapolation."
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6.5 million and a insurance rate of 97.4% (was ~85% in 2003-2005) is not a large enough sample size for a product that can only be purchased from within state lines?

darwin1 - What am I talking about? What are you talking about? If you think people that started businesses that are successful is because of the Government, you need to wake up.

Yes, because Mass doesn't have the Economies of Scale that the nation does. Not a good example for extrapolation.

spark, what are you talking about? The person you describe earns their income, however, depending on that business they may have received some type of subsidy. Rarely are businesses not the beneficiary of the government for their wealth. For example, their education whether through schools or libraries (Glenn Beck), their use or their customers use of the roadways, clean water (arsenic and Atrazine), electricity (REA), clean air (banning of asbestos or DDT), Interstate trade, enforcement of contracts, disaster relief makes it possible for that business to operate and thrive without having to worry about the rule of law or other catastrophes. The sad thing is that many of these business owners cannot connect the dots anymore.

RetiredAirForce - Thank you for the reality check. Mass. should be used as a prime example. Be careful what you wish for.

"the only way you lower health insurance cost IS to mandate everyone have coverage. I'm not that fond of the idea, but if there is some better plans, why haven't we done it by now? $$$$."
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ekim8404, what you ask has been done in the state of Massachusetts. The results are completely opposite of your comment. They now have the highest healthcare costs in the nation (http://www.boston.com/news/health/articl...). They have the longest waiting periods for care in the country (http://www.heartland.org/publications/he...).

It is not the panacea you are being told by politicians and the media...the insurance companies are going to love it!

cuz it sounds like if you believe we were headed in the wrong direction maybe obama taking the wheel and going the other direction even against traffic might actually not be a bad idea. you say he's gonna crash and burn. there is a chance that he will navigate the traffic and actually get us to where we want to go??

on 2nd thought i like your analogy:)

actually there is one point in that analogy id like to ask about...

'You know your headed in the wrong direction, but believe you are reasonably close to getting where you want to go'

is that the path you want us to be on?? THE WRONG DIRECTION WHILE BELIEVING WE ARE REASONABLY CLOSE TO WHERE WE WANT TO GO??

please tell me how going the wrong direction will get you to where you want to go??

thanx for the response. i appreciate ACTUAL points. which brings us to ezoner....

ezoner: what would you say to the 'dolts' when after your analogy they look at you and say 'what'?? do you have any ACTUAL points cuz that sounds like fear mongering babble...

darwin1 - By the way. Explain to me how someone that starts their own business from scratch, go's through the life lessons of hard times doing so, and then makes a successful career out of it is a fraud? Makes money by being smart, using their head. Using what they were taught. Isn't that what everyone should strive for? Sounds more like jealously to me. The what's mine is your theory, isn't what life is about.

the only way you lower health insurance cost IS to mandate everyone have coverage. I'm not that fond of the idea, but if there is some better plans, why haven't we done it by now? $$$$.

darwin1 - Wow. You lefties need to take a chill pill. I never turned this into a Republican/Democrat argument. Read my very first post. That was made very clear. But typical fashion, you all need to get your undies in a bundle and start attacking. If it makes you feel good, go ahead. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all. Like I said, Obama will be one in done. His own people are turning on him. That's got nothing to do with party favor either. That's simply the facts. It's not working for him and socialism is not what America is about.
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As far as my apparent delusional realty. You don't know me, I don't know you. I know how I was raised, what I believe in, and I do have a problem paying for someone that can afford the most expensive cell phone, designer clothes and a carton of cigarettes, yet I'm supposed to be concerned about paying for their insurance.

sorry FOTH, didn't refresh the browser.

Is that the same blue states in financial ruin darwin?

Kid, the point on air relates to breathing. Current plans require everyone have healthcare coverage; if you breathe you will pay either for a plan or a fine. The first time in our nations history the federal government demands you purchase something. Ironically they will make you purchase something from the very industry they are castigating as the enemy to push the legislation in the first place.

spark, no Republicans aren't rich they are ignorant frauds. You say they believe in hard work and earning their keep yet they promote inheritance which in unearned. They promote speculative wealth which is unearned. Glenn Beck and Rush use the publicly owned air waves (socialism) to get rich. I worked with a Republican who complained about the government yet both he and his wife were government employees. Alaska is largely Republican yet 30% of the people their are employees of the federal government. Red states are subsidized by the blue states to the tune of 90 billion dollars. Funny how facts stand in the way of your delusional reality.

thekid3477, the bill contains a mandate that every citizen purchase minimum standard health insurance from an approved private company. Those who refuse to do so are fined. Refusal to pay the fine could result in doing time in prison. So the act of "simple existence" places one in violation of the law.

Lets see if I can use an analogy for the dolts that want to follow Obama and the dems into the abyss.

"You are driving down the road in your midsize above average car. The engine is slightly under powered. You know your headed in the wrong direction, but believe you are reasonably close to getting where you want to go. So you make a correction in your path"

OR

"The socialistic or progressive grabs the wheel, hist the brakes, reduces the size of the engine, but increases the size of the car with little or no additional saftey equipment (protection). He spins around and heads across traffic and then directly at cars heading in t he opposite direction. HE IS DOOMED TO CRASH AND BURN. All can see it, some believe he is a competent driver, until they are dead or permanently injured." Thats the Obama plan.

vatoloca, you can't obtain a 90% probability from thin air as you did. You need a dataset. This means you need actual examples to get a 90% probability from. You simply made a number up. So, your point is that you are a fraud.

whythink - False again. Republicans don't just care about the rich. That is simply stupid and you know it. Most of the republicans I know are the farthest thing from rich and could care less who is. As a matter of fact, most are simply middle class, but have specific morals, freedoms and choices they believe should be made by the individual. They also believe in hard work and earning your keep.

ark
Mar 18, 2010 at 9:13 a.m.
Suggest removal Ah, yes. I love the if you're republican, you must be rich. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Does that mean if you're a democrat you're a socialist?
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I never said if you are a republican you must be rich...I said Republicans only care about the rich. That does not mean the rich are the only one's that care about the republicans.

Darwin-Not as stupid as you missing the point.

im open to learning things and id love actual points for/against this bill rather than just guessing or fear mongering. please tell me about this crime of inhaling air...

nice try vatoloca, however, 90% is NOT what you said. You said 9 out of 10. How stupid can you be?

Ah, yes. I love the if you're republican, you must be rich. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Does that mean if you're a democrat you're a socialist?

thekid3477, here is but one key element of the proposed reform legislation, if it is passed into law: Whereas the government now puts a gun to your head for the crime of inhaling tetrahydrocannabinol, it will put a gun to my head for the crime of inhaling air.

"Just because your side DOESN'T CARE at all about the American people or at least not those who not are filthy rich doesn't mean something like the "war on poverty" isn't worth continuing to fight."

That's the perception you are lead to believe. Opposition to the fed running a socialist agenda does not translate into "not caring".

I don't believe it is a socialist agenda. Plus, the Republicans had a chance to reform health care THERE WAY and did nothing and the private health insurance companies could police themselves...but instead raise rates to increase profits. So now the government, led by the democrats, are getting involved. Shouldn't they? The republicans did nothing, the insurance companies continues to destroy families while profits increase and while insuring less people. If this isn't when a government option is needed then when is it. If this isn't when the government MUST get involved then when should they. Thankfully the democrats are doing something. It is about time. It is about 20 years over-due.
I would love to see the war on drugs end on certain drugs like marijuana. No problem.

You are right, maybe all poor folks are not lazy but there are opportuntities to better yourself than depend on Uncle Sam to support thier daily living. While I do think that there are some folks that are in vital need there are far more that abuse the system.

Not sure if I agree with that. I have heard a number of times situations where a person could begin to get off the system but if they take the job they lose their insurance, or food stamps. Taking the job is a step in the right direction but then all the assistance is gone and they can't survive. So they don't take the job and live off the system. This happens ALL THE TIME!

Yes, people abuse the sytem, just a rich people abuse the system to avoid paying taxes. Someone abuses just about every system. I wonder, do the same % of rich people abuse the system to get out of paying taxes as poor people abuse the system to get free food, insurance and housing.
Who should we be more upset with?
I am proud of what our military personnel have done. They have protected us from terrorists attacking us on our soil. I do not go around the world apologizing for what we have done to the terrorists.

"vatoloca, what 9 out of 10 times. Please name the 9 out of 10 things. Do you have them or is that just another right wing fraud."

For claiming to be smart, you sure miss the simple things. What I said (9 times out of 10) simply means that the probability (90%) that a fed created program is destined to be a failure.

DavidG - None of Ryans numbers make any sense? Ummmm....really? Whatever you say. Funny how everyone sitting there was dumbfounded with no answers. Funny how nobody has argued his case. Funny how if all of Ryans info according to you comes from other sources, that the President is very interested in what Ryan has to say. Like I said, I wasn't turning this into a Democrat vs Republican argument. You said Ryans numbers make no sense and doesn't show premiums will go up. There's more uncertainties and risk showing they will go up than down. That says to me, the bill still has too many holes in it.

facts101 obviously didn't see the Q&A between Obama and the House Republicans, or the health care summit, or any of the numerous one-on-one interviews he's given over the last year, or even his recent interview on Faux News (where he was actually interrupted numerous times by the Faux News interviewer). A babbling idiot, Obama is not.

"Just because your side DOESN'T CARE at all about the American people or at least not those who not are filthy rich doesn't mean something like the "war on poverty" isn't worth continuing to fight."

That's the perception you are lead to believe. Opposition to the fed running a socialist agenda does not translate into "not caring". You leftists want everyone to believe that you emit a higher moral superiority when in reality you really do not help anyone but keep proliferating the oppression on ther poor. Obama, Pelosi, and Reidkeep telling them that they are poor and they will never amount to anything. This is the fear mongering that they use.If you keep offering free governemnt services you will have a hard time weaning people off the pacifier.

I would love to see the war on drugs end on certain drugs like marijuana. No problem.

You are right, maybe all poor folks are not lazy but there are opportuntities to better yourself than depend on Uncle Sam to support thier daily living. While I do think that there are some folks that are in vital need there are far more that abuse the system.

I am proud of what our military personnel have done. They have protected us from terrorists attacking us on our soil. I do not go around the world apologizing for what we have done to the terrorists.

excellent question whythink. i chuckle at all the people crying about the money that this bill is going to cost us and then turn around and support the billions wasted on adults smoking a plant.

i hope the president gets this bill passed. i dont even know that much about it. i know that the right speculates this and the left speculates that. what i speculate is that health care costs are going up anyways and when i read things like

'Seems he wants to PUNISH those of us with a job and make life easy for those without jobs. Soon it will be better to be unemployed than employed at the rate hes going'

it truly makes me throw up in my mouth a little and actually pushes me to believe that the right is trying to scare and the left is trying to help. do you REALLY think that is his intent?? to make unemployment BETTER than employment?? thats a childish playground thought. its ok chicken little...you will see this story ends just like the last...

vatoloco
Mar 17, 2010 at 3:18 p.m.
Suggest removal Spark-9 times out of 10 when the fed is involved in anything it is doomed to fail becasue when you spend other people's money you just do not have limits.

What has been the exit strategy to end the war on poverty after 40 years? We are still fighting it. How does Obama expect all the lazy, unmotivated, and welfare dependent supporters to get oof their behinds and become self sufficient? I forgot, they just care much more than everyone else.
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Might be one of the more ignorant comments on this thread.

Just because your side DOESN'T CARE at all about the American people or at least not those who not are filthy rich doesn't mean something like the "war on poverty" isn't worth continuing to fight. BTW, are you consistant... Would you like to see the end of the 30 year "War on Drugs" and the legalization of marijuana?

Oh, and not all people living below the poverty line are lazy. Some work multiple jobs...making Walmart execs. filthy rich, while making little money. Perhaps if those execs. had a heart one Walmart job would be enough.

BTW, is the military one of the 9 or in your opinion the only thing the Feds. do well? Just curious.

You want to see Barry Obama lie? Take away the teleprompter the man is a babbling idiot without it. I hope the 57% of the people against this bill vote the democrats out. People wanted change but did they want socialism? Because thats where we are headed folks. I am waiting to see Barry morp into Hugo any day now.

Eman, your comments are old news. Obama's press secretary already said he misspoke; it was supposed to be $3000 not 3000%. You haven't proven anything. You just made an accusation without any substantiated facts and you left some out either because you don't care about the truth or because your incompetent.

George Bush LIED and now hundreds of thousands are dead. Your moral relativism is showing.

whythink, the summary from media matters is cute, now please answer my question.

I see comprehension isn't some people's strong suit...What I was saying was there is no WAY obozo is any smarter than Bush was in any way whatsoever.

Mr. Spark indicated that this is not about our former president, and that Paul Ryan has all the answers and the correct story on costs. I wonder how many residents realize that the actual source of Rep Ryan's health care cost numbers is a fellow named James Capretta who wrote a piece in the Heritage Foundation web site, then funneled the info to the GOP Budget Committee. Capretta was indeed the Asst Director of the White House OMB under Bush. He had previous jobs as a lobbyist, including one for a firm that lobbied for Health Care companies. Look up his bio and story. None of Ryan's numbers make any sense.

As for this story, there is simply no reliable information that tells us where premiums will end up until we see who buys what insurance. In most cases, it seems to make sense that personal policy costs should drop a bit.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Ware higher boot's

Thanks for that link, Spark. I'm happy to see that portion of the Summit on YouTube. (The President's body language is very interesting.)

Monday's Washington Post had a great piece by Paul Ryan: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con... I'm disappointed this wasn't published on GazetteXtra. The links on that page are also worth reading.

I should probably take this time to revise my previous criticisms of Paul Ryan's lemming-like behavior while Bush was president. He is now leading the charge and deserves credit and encouragement for doing so.

vatoloca, what 9 out of 10 times. Please name the 9 out of 10 things. Do you have them or is that just another right wing fraud.

The story headline is misleading. The CBO has said that for individuals the premiums would decrease 14-20 percent for the same coverage. The increase would come about is if an individual qualifies for a subsidy and elects to purchase a plan with more coverage. That is where 10-13% number comes in. The reason for the prediction of the $3,000 savings for employer based plans is for some cost controls features under the bill, however the CBO is declining to make an estimate of those savings for a varity of reasons.

HoopsFan- 2047 pages of good intent? I highly doubt it.

Spark-9 times out of 10 when the fed is involved in anything it is doomed to fail becasue when you spend other people's money you just do not have limits.

What has been the exit strategy to end the war on poverty after 40 years? We are still fighting it. How does Obama expect all the lazy, unmotivated, and welfare dependent supporters to get oof their behinds and become self sufficient? I forgot, they just care much more than everyone else.

thekid - Darwin is correct, our government did repeal prohibition (of alcohol) in 1933. See 18th and 21st amendments respectively. For most of the 20th century the term prohibition has been in reference to alcohol, but that is changing. Our current lexicon pertaining to prohibition does, for many, refer to marijuana. But the word itself can refer to any laws limiting a persons right to use/consume a controlled substance or engage in a banned act. Even if marijuana was made totally legal there would still be prohibitions on other substances.

Everyone understands the need and want for everyone to have health care. That is not the issue. The issue is how and who is going to pay for it. I don't care what anyone says, it will cost everyone and I'm sorry, but it simply isn't fair for some to pay and others to not in order for it to work.

Paul Ryan summed it up best and whether you like him or not, fact is, he called everyone out on it and made more sense than anyone. The man does his homework.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxMZ1WdI...

Heaven forbid we try to get health insurance for everyone. None of us want higher premiums, trust me, but the intent of the bill is good.

I am neither an Obama hater nor fan, but no one seems to have convincingly explained how this bill is going to help and not make things worse for most of us. I don't hear insurance industry people screaming and crying, and that probably means they are being taken care of in this. That means the public probably will lose. If the bill were as good as everyone hopes it will be, there wouldn't be a need to rush it through, and there wouldn't be so much confusion about what it's going to do.

SUMMARY: Newt Gingrich and Joe Scarborough have recently criticized a proposed legislative procedure to finalize health care reform as "radical" and "incredible," despite having supported the use of the same legislative process while they were members of Congress. The rule in question is an accepted part of House procedure, and in the years after Gingrich became speaker of the House and Scarborough was elected, Congress "set new records" for its use.

Self-executing rules began innocently enough in the 1970s as a way of making technical corrections to bills. But, as the House became more partisan in the 1980s, the majority leadership was empowered by its caucus to take all necessary steps to pass the party's bills. This included a Rules Committee that was used more creatively to devise procedures to all but guarantee policy success. The self-executing rule was one such device to make substantive changes in legislation while ensuring majority passage.

When Republicans were in the minority, they railed against self-executing rules as being anti-deliberative because they undermined and perverted the work of committees and also prevented the House from having a separate debate and vote on the majority's preferred changes. From the 95th to 98th Congresses (1977-84), there were only eight self-executing rules making up just 1 percent of the 857 total rules granted. However, in Speaker Tip O'Neill's (D-Mass.) final term in the 99th Congress, there were 20 self-executing rules (12 percent). In Rep. Jim Wright's (D-Texas) only full term as Speaker, in the 100th Congress, there were 18 self-executing rules (17 percent). They reached a high point of 30 under Speaker Tom Foley (D-Wash.) during the final Democratic Congress, the 103rd, for 22 percent of all rules.

When Republicans took power in 1995, they soon lost their aversion to self-executing rules and proceeded to set new records under Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.). There were 38 and 52 self-executing rules in the 104th and 105th Congresses (1995-1998), making up 25 percent and 35 percent of all rules, respectively. Under Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) there were 40, 42 and 30 self-executing rules in the 106th, 107th and 108th Congresses (22 percent, 37 percent and 22 percent, respectively). Thus far in the 109th Congress, self-executing rules make up about 16 percent of all rules.

On April 26 [2006], the Rules Committee served up the mother of all self-executing rules for the lobby/ethics reform bill. The committee hit the trifecta with not one, not two, but three self-executing provisions in the same special rule.

http://mediamatters.org/print/research/2...

Truth - This isn't about Bush. His presidency is over. This is about our current President.

"Newt and others did it all the time."
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If it happened all the time I am sure you can provide at lease one example of a similar situation as today's. You know where a bill that was not voted on, because the leader doesn't want to expose vulnerable members to the ramifications of the vote. If as you say it was done all the time it should be easy for you to find. http://thehill.com/homenews/house/72461-...

truth1, how is that different than Obama saying insurance premiums for some would go down 3000 percent and then they would get a raise because of it?

http://politifi.com/news/Obama-Premiums-...

Bush was considered "stupid" by many......quote--"3000 percent".....you CAN'T get any more stupid than that...How can someone THAT dumb be trusted about anything???

darwin: they repealed prohibition?? sweet time to start growin some herb...

donnaw
Mar 17, 2010 at 9:42 a.m.
Suggest removal If the repubs had tried some of the dirty tricks Pelosi, Reid, et al
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Newt and others did it all the time. You don't know because of that left-wing biased media...wrong the CORPORATE CONTROLLED MEDIA that didn't cover it.

Bottom line...both side do it, have done it and both cry when it is done to them. Both are hypocrites.

The Corruptocrats have to threaten their own party members in showers and pay them off with ambassodorships and judgeships to family members in order to get them to vote for a bill that's great for the country.

Got it.

Truth - Than you are completely getting screwed if they go up that much each year. That is a horrible plan.

Zoom, thanks for the corrections on my Bush tax cut misses. I guess the point is that our government is getting bigger and bigger and it wants to continue to get bigger and bigger and involve itself in every aspect of our lives. This admin wants to be the answer to ever ill we have. The governments only source of revenue is taxes. So as the government grows and installs new programs these programs have to be paid for. US citizens and US corporations are the ones that have to pay. We have already made committments we will likely not be able to keep: SS $6.6 trillion, Medicare $37.6 trillion. Our national debt is already $12trillion. We are already in big trouble fiscally, how can we continue to add new programs?

And how much more could they rise?
My health insurance goes up 45-53% every year.

Because the reps didn't put forth a plan while in control justifies a complete take over of the system now? Everyone with a little common sense understands how bad this is. If it was great it would have passed months ago right after the house voted for their plan, it could have gone right over the the senate for a vote...but didn't; hmmm. After christmas the Senate plan could have gone right over to the house for a vote but didn't; hmmm.

Why? The huffpost and MSNBC crowd like to blame the party of no, reps, bunch of meanies. The truth for them is much harder to swallow. The reason neither of these bills went to the other chamber is the Dem leadership in the senate and congress do not have enough Dem votes to pass them while holding majorities in both...so which party is the party of no?

wcs4710 said: "Frankly I already do not have enough money, more taxes will kill me!"

If you already don't have enough money, I'm guessing NONE of those taxes will apply to you.

The top tax bracket MAY increase from 35% to 39% (the rate when G.W. Bush started, btw). The top tax bracket is only for income earned OVER about $373K. Do you make that much money?

The federal estate tax, by law, was only REPEALED for 2010 (i.e. no tax). The 55% rate you mention is only in the top bracket, not the whole rate. Also, at least the first $1 million of inheritance will be exempt, but the rules for 2011 haven't been decided yet. Will you be inheriting more than $1 million in 2011?

It doesn't take a genius, a democrat or a republican to realize this plan is horrible and will fail the people miserably. It only takes anyone with common sense to understand this. If you think it's a solid plan, you didn't spend enough time studying as a youth. And with that, I will say regardless of party sides, President Obama lacks that common sense. And no I'm not bashing Democrats. He will be one and done.

JimP-The reason it failed was the politicians, but the fact is it has failed. My point is this is no different under our current form of governmental incompetency.

Here are some myths disputed on the bill.

http://www.aolnews.com/opinion/article/o...

We have U.S.exporters that can't get their goods shipped because they don't have access to ships. Soybean farmers who shipments are being canceled because they can't get their loads to the consumer across the ocean. There's a lot of bad stuff going on. Not just Health care. How come this is never in the news?

Yes, ezone its all a plot. In all honesty, we don't know the future. However, Republicans don't want to try anything. The beauty of our government is that it can change: we had prohibition, we repealed prohibition. See how that actually works. Republicans and Conservatives are completely devoid of any reality. First, they claim its unconstitutional, then the economic sky will fall and now finally it is a plot to take over the world.

COuld comment, but I have nothing nice to say!

The bad thing is I think they are doing this on purpose. To crash the US economy. Blame it on capitalism and then watch the difference between the have and have nots. All the power at the top, all the wealth at the top and all people enslaved to the government.

CallitasIseeit: Social Security didn't fail it was our greedy republicans and democrats politicians who failed. It started years and years ago when they put there greedy fingers into the pot of money and replaced it with worthless IOU's.

If the repubs had tried some of the dirty tricks Pelosi, Reid, et al, are trying to do to get this monstrous bill passed the dems would be screaming bloody murder!! If they can't get the bill passed the way it should be following normal rules, they are afraid and shouldn't be passing it at all. Obama will still be trotting out his phoney white coat props until forever--enough! The majority of the country doesn't want it and our slick politicians should all be fired!! I hope they are come Nov.

This whole thing is frightening. I saw a poll today that said 57% of Americans are against this plan. I do not understand the hell-bent desire by this administration to jam this thing through? why? I am confused. Also, due to the healthcare only coverage in the media today, nobody is talking about the bush tax cuts that will expire soon. Highest rate will go back up over 39%, inheritance tax will go back to 55% (from 0), capital gains tax will go from 15% to 20%, dividend tax goes from 15% to 39.6%, plus more. When this healthcare thing passes, and the bush taxes cuts expire we as individuals are in big trouble. Frankly I already do not have enough money, more taxes will kill me! But there will be more to come. ie. Cap n' trade is next. Paul Ryan...please start talking about this!

I am not a right-winger nor a left-winger. It doesn't take a genius to see that this will fail miserably like social security. Both parties are at fault as our political system has failed and we need laws on campaign finance and term limits. See me in four years on this.

Our President, (the smartest man on the planet and perhaps in the history of the planet if you listen to the media and his supporters) states that premiums will fall 3000% if this bill is passed and gets wild cheers from the crowd and no coverage from most mainstream media outlets. Imagine for one moment if Bush, Qualye, Romney or Palin had made this "mistake". The really sad thing is that I don't think he understood how dumb what he said was until his staff had to start covering for him with the old "what the President meant to say was" routine

I would say that most people in Congress, on both sides of the aisle, know that this bill is worthless. It does too much in the way of assumption. No one knows the REAL COST and that seems to change every other day when a figure is presented. No knows for sure who will be covered and what kind of care they will be given. No one knows if the young will flock to sign up and pay for their own health care or just pay a fine and we are still stuck with their bill. Health care needs reform but it needs to be done with care and sensible actions,not just those that are put in to garner votes. If this bill does get passed, don't cry about the increased costs, the lost of health care services. You got what you bargined for.

Grassroots conservatives want less government in our lives, not more. Yes, Republican politicians screwed up by not reforming outrageous insurance company control (given to them by the '73 HMO Act). We are often equally disgusted by big government Republican and Democrat politicians.

To all the Conservatives and/or Republicans crying about this plan while stating they have their own plan that is better...

Where the heck was it when you had control? If you recognize that reform is necessary and have ideas on how to do it...WHY DID YOU WAIT UNTIL NOW TO BRING THEM UP?

You had your chance and did NOTHING! Now, all you do is criticize the person with the guts to do something.

Pathetic!

So, now we know a future that doesn't exist yet. The crazy right wingers have been saying the sky is falling for the past year, yet none of their claims have come true - NONE. I didn't know dumb was the new smart.

The Party of No...busy at work tearing down with no plan to build up. Keep on spewing boys; a healthcare plan will be passed.

You mean the billions of dollars of taxes on drugs and medical devices will be passed on to insureds? No way!

You mean the hundreds of billions of dollars in cuts to Medicare will be passed on by doctors and hospitals to commercial insurers, thus significantly raising premiums? No way!

You mean young people would prefer to pay a paltry $750 tax to avoid having to buy health insurance which costs several times more than that, secure in the knowledge that they can wait to get sick and buy insurance on the way to the hospital, thus driving up premiums for everyone responsible enough to buy health insurance when they're healthy? No way!

Barack Obama is not a liar and not a demagogue, so all these so-called facts must be lies made up by right-wing racists.

The headline should read:

"US economy will crumble under Obamacare"

The US dollar will be worthless in four years (actually it is probably there now) as the deficits soar to new heights. They spent the 2.5 trillion dollar Social Security fund and now they want to run the equivalent of 1/6 of our economy? It is time to buy land and learn how to raise your own food. The end is nearer than you think, the Mayans may be right.

"Premiums would rise under Obama plan".....Duh