http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuBmSbiVX...

I totally agree with outnumbered. I can think of one college in particular that totally avoids preparing new teacher candidates of student and community response (lack of parental involvement or support, as well as lack of administration support). Whether it is on purpose or not is still unknown.

My father got out of teaching because of the lack of administration's ability to control unruly students and the constant threat of lawsuits by parents who thought it was appropriate to bully teachers instead of discipline their brats at home for inappropriate behavior in class. Teachers have to put up with crap FROM YOUR KIDS that you CERTAINLY would not put up with (or God help us all if you do put up with it at home...or wait, is that what our Police Department "wastes" their money on too?). Pulic servants such as teachers and police officers deserve SO much more than they get and here you all are-complaining about an insignificant amount of money in light of the big picture.

SarahB1- You are right teachers did know what they were getting into (different student learning styles, students with needs, correcting papers at home, salary, etc).....however, I don't think colleges prepare new teachers for the extreme behavior issues of some of these students (ones who get violent), lack of parental support, and lack of community support (meaning "teacher bashers".)

By the way, I thought it might be helpful for you "teacher haters" to actually have some resources so that you can get your teaching degree and get all the pay/benefits/vacation time that teachers get. Websites to various Wisconsin colleges are listed below. See you in 4-5 years when you can breathe new life into the teaching profession. Good luck! You'll need it!
Whitewater
www.uww.edu/coe
Madison
www.education.wisc.edu

Don't get me wrong. I completely support the medical profession. You folks are dealing with sick patients and their families on a daily basis. You're totally worth your weight in gold as far as I'm concerned. Just wondering why you don't feel teachers are worth their weight in gold when basically nurses and teachers are both in the service profession.

SarahB1-Just curious...how much do you make as a nurse? What are your health benefits like? The reason I ask is that when I graduated from college, a nursing friend of mine was making almost DOUBLE what I was making. We both had 4 year degrees. Then when she got her masters degree and I got mine...same thing...almost DOUBLE what I was making. Things that make you go...hmmmm.

SarahB1: I'm not even going to waste my time! I won't argue with a know it all!

Wow, so much teacher bashing on this thread. As a parent of two, it takes more than a few teachers to have good students. Parental involvment is crucial. School is not a daycare where you drop your kid off to get rid of them for 8 hours a day. If the situation were reversed, and the parents got paid as well, for having an above average student, and no pay for anything less than a B average, we could say that those parents arent doing thier job, and deserve nothing. You folks act like our educators are getting rich from thier profession, how sadly mistaken you are. Our educators deserve every penny they get to deal with your (oun) incompetence. They must pick up the slack from where the uninvolved parent leaves off.

jv92: Couldn't give me a name, why not? You didn't make your point, you demonstrated the overall hatred for educators in Janesville. Congrats! I'll be waiting for that business name next time you post!

Here Here, Stubby (9-17 at 5:34 a.m.).

"I would say that finding ways to engage, motivate and teach 30 kids from 30 families who utilize 4 or 5 different learning styles, and simultaneously educating 4 or 5 with special needs while maintaining classroom discipline and a positive learning environment and keep up with all those parent contacts.....
(whew - tired just typing that and I didn't even mention the counseling requirements) makes surgery or shuttle flight engineering look pretty simple."

This is what a really great, effective teacher does every day. Unfortunately, they are as rare as the really bad teachers. Most teachers fall on the big spectrum in between. The more challenges that meet the teachers in the classroom, the fewer teachers who will be able to meet the "really great" standard and more will become the "really bad" teachers. Teachers are now expected to provide differentiated instruction to a classroom of highly diverse students while maintaining discipline, providing guidance and counseling emotionally fragile students and, OH YEAH, teaching them something along the way. Public Schools have tried to be everything to everybody and have become nothing for anybody. The Janesville School Board knows this is the best compromise contract. Unfortunately, some of the problem has come about because of bad business management in the JCSD. The finance committee should have been able to better guestimate what salary increases would be expected so there wasn't such a surprise to the budget process so late in the game. I hope they used a very conservative estimate of state aide for this year or they will have the double whammy experienced by the Madison School District last year.

interesting thoughts on money and the public school system from john stossel.
and if you agree with him, then you have bad kids, hate teachers, drink too much and hate your job.
(burp!)
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/article...

jv92:
"Point number 1: Some teachers are better than others. Teachers and unions always claim evaluations are not possible therefore we can never have pay based on merit. Can you clear this inconsistency up based on your comments?"
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Don't try to change the subject. You agree that some teachers are better than others, clearly.
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"You again are measuring teachers which your union and every teacher on this board has refuted since the beginning of time. How are you or maybe your interviewing skills so special? I'm sure some teachers would take issue with how you propose to evaluate them. Clear this up?"
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You again are trying to change the subject.
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"Good candidates will go elsewhere. Maybe...but the good candidates still left will be there for the right reasons."
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So you concede that that part of the argument is valid. You are willing to trade higher quality for lower pay. And you say its the unions that promote mediocrity?
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"Merely pointing out how you claim to value education so much but fail to pony up more cash than you are required to back your convictions. Who's the tightwad? *Your* just more willing to spend other people's money. When it's your own? You are just as tight as me pal."
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I made it clear earlier that I would welcome the opportunity to pay more property tax to put that money into education. You are not. Which one of us is the tightwad?
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"Why do we pay surgeons more? Seriously I have to cover this again...(this must be where your sign comes into play)? There are fewer surgeons in the world therefore in the free market place they are able to command higher salaries. If there were as many surgeons as there are teachers, surgeons would be much cheaper to hire. You seem to believe our teacher pool is so thin with as you say "good" candidates but the data do not agree with you, nor are you able to substantiate it which makes your point without merit."
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If you want a better surgeon, are you going to offer more or less money for their compensation? What data disagrees with my point? Simply because I haven't given you empirical data to back up my logic-based argument, you argue that the logic *must* then be incorrect. Some freshman level critical thinking courses would be a wise thing for you at this point.

You know what jq you are correct. I am done posting on this thread because I feel I have made my point.

One way to gauge the better teachers would be to take a student poll every once in a while....It may not be everything but it SURE would mean SOMETHING.

Point number 1: Some teachers are better than others. Teachers and unions always claim evaluations are not possible therefore we can never have pay based on merit. Can you clear this inconsistency up based on your comments?
Point number 2:"If you keep the compensation attractive you will keep the high number of applicants and keep the chance of getting an application from a 90th percentile teacher." You again are measuring teachers which your union and every teacher on this board has refuted since the beginning of time. How are you or maybe your interviewing skills so special? I'm sure some teachers would take issue with how you propose to evaluate them. Clear this up?
Point number 3: Good candidates will go elsewhere. Maybe...but the good candidates still left will be there for the right reasons.
Point number 4: My pissing match. Yeah I piss with the best. Merely pointing out how you claim to value education so much but fail to pony up more cash than you are required to back your convictions. Who's the tightwad? Your just more willing to spend other people's money. When it's your own? You are just as tight as me pal.
Point number 5: Why do we pay surgeons more? Seriously I have to cover this again...(this must be where your sign comes into play)? There are fewer surgeons in the world therefore in the free market place they are able to command higher salaries. If there were as many surgeons as there are teachers, surgeons would be much cheaper to hire. You seem to believe our teacher pool is so thin with as you say "good" candidates but the data do not agree with you, nor are you able to substantiate it which makes your point without merit.

jv92:"How are you able to tell some teachers are better than others?"
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How are you able to tell some janitors are better than others? How are you able to tell some engineers are better than others? How are you able to tell some garbage men are better than others? This is why you have an interview, talk to the candidate, check references, etc. Haven't you ever taken part in an interview?
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"How does having a larger pool ensure this since they are all state certified and licensed?"
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It's simple statistics. If you want a shot at a teacher that is in the 90th percentile, you might get 5 candidates in 50 applications. If you keep the compensation attractive you will keep the high number of applicants and keep the chance of getting an application from a 90th percentile teacher.
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"Good candidates are everywhere"
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And thats the way we should want it. Cut the pay and the good candidates will go elsewhere - you said so yourself.
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"Sent that check to the school district yet? Who's the tightwad if you support education? I'll bet I double or triple your taxes easily? I contribute way more than you probably ever have in your entire teaching career."
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Hoping to get into an internet p*ssing match, ay? That's very mature of you. How many times do I have to tell you that I'm not a teacher?
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"THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN PAY AND QUALITY."
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Then why do we pay surgeons so much? There is a connection between pay and quality in every profession. Higher pay->more interest in the position->higher percentage of quality available->higher percentage of quality hired. Typing in all caps doesn't make you right. Try picking one chain in that logic that isn't consistent and telling me why.

jv92: Could you possibly be anymore obnoxious? What line of work are you in? At least give me the name of the company so I can boycott the business. I'll be waiting for you response!

King,
Answer my questions. How are you able to tell some teachers are better than others? How does having a larger pool ensure this since they are all state certified and licensed? Good candidates are everywhere. WAKE UP, that is what I am saying.
THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN PAY AND QUALITY. You have no data because there is none to support your point. I may be a tightwad but well like the saying goes "here's your sign." You have the one thing that can't be fixed.
Sent that check to the school district yet? Who's the tightwad if you support education? I'll bet I double or triple your taxes easily? I contribute way more than you probably ever have in your entire teaching career.

booch11: Your second post:
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"poor poor teachers.
they get a total of four and a half month total off every year and just can't seem to cope.
poor poor pitiful me.
poor poor pitiful me"
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Yeah, sounds like a real civil discussion doesn't it?

funny that when faced with a contrarian viewpoint it seems those who are pro-teacher contract resort to name calling and insinuations.
sad that all of these highly edumacated people talk down to use stupid rubes while assuming we have bad kids and hate our jobs (rather than have a civil discussion).
oh and btw, i'm not anti-teacher -- re-read my posts. i think this is not a good contract for the times we live in.
that being said, i need another beer so i can go kick my dog, yell at my kids and turn on some teevee for the next six hours.

"teachers are demanding raises and cadillac benefits while expecting taxpayers to foot the bill. isn't that a TAD selfish on their part?"
Not when they've had to take substandard raises and sometimes zero raises when the QEO was in place putting their earnings further below the consumer index than the rest.
AND they more and more have to put up with "stinky" attitudes from taxpayers that don't understand their obligation and what it takes to provide quality education to a growing group that could care less, dragging down progress with the ones that want it(good education.)
Talk about your "Dirty Job."

Besides, you want to complain about education costing the tax payers so much money, go to your state budeting committee meetings and tell your legislature on how much the state mandates costs the local school districts a ton of money for education. It does no good to blame a teacher for working with children when the real problem starts in Madison and goes all the way to D.C. So instead of complaining on a BLOG, take your right as an American and go to the state of WI assembly meetings and ask for madates to be lifted off school districts. Or is that too much to ask of all you nay sayers!

I have lived here 12 yrs and can't believe the teacher bashing in this city. What about police personnel, firefighters, city and county workers??? We pay their salaries too but when was the last time the Gazette went after them for the public to hear union negotiations???? Just curious why this city hates teachers so much? Is it because they all decided not to futher their education and go work in a plant......I don't get it.

jv92 and Booch11 - Evidently you two are unhappy in your current jobs. Maybe you should have invested in your education and furthered it for a better career instead of being stuck in a dead end job with no air conditioning. Quit whining about everyone else and take care of your own problems first. Its called self improvement! No wait, let's point a finger and blame everyone else for your problems and choices!

"teachers are demanding . . ."
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From an earlier article about the contract: "Several [school board] members said they couldn’t see rejecting the deal, which likely would result in an arbitrator awarding the teachers much more."
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Your use of the word "demanding" is interesting in a case where they settled for less compensation than they could have in the interest of establishing a positive relationship with the district.

booch - Offering more money to attract higher quality candidates is just as much "using the market" as offering less money to attract cheaper candidates. The two methods just have two different goals. I think that thinking price first is a foolish way to look at education.

kingrizzo,
how is the teachers union "using the market" to "drive up the quality of teachers and employ the finest collection of people the district can afford?"
teachers are public sector employees.
there is no free market here.
sylvan and huntington are two examples of private learning centers where competition exists. if they don't perform, they go out of business.
if schools don't perform, well, for the most part, nothing happens.

mmof3 & royo,
what is stopping you from heading down to the education building and writing out a check?
****************
proartist,
you said teachers are "too easily dismissed from consideration when there are budget challenges..."
hmmmm - guaranteed raises, extremely low health insurance out of pocket expenses (locked in for the duration of this contract), retirement at 57 and as i recall, a HUGE referendum a couple years ago. How exactly have they been dismissed?
***********
gbwbill,
you said, "God bless our wonderful Janesville teachers. They certainly deserve more than these selfish, negative commenters are willing to give them."
aren't the comments made by the pro teacher folks just as selfish and negative? in an era where unemployment is very high and social security has been frozen, teachers are demanding raises and cadillac benefits while expecting taxpayers to foot the bill. isn't that a TAD selfish on their part?

Thank you teachers for doing a great job with our children. You deserve every penny you get!

I would be happy to pay more property taxes if it means my child will get a good education.

jv92: I haven't provided data because I don't need to. The logic here is sound and you have provided no arguments to show it isn't.
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You have agreed that pay has a direct effect on the number of applicants. Lower pay = fewer applicants as you said, so then higher pay=more candidates. Yes?
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You have not yet disagreed that higher number of applicants = higher likelihood of finding a good candidate. By "good candidate" I mean a person who works well with kids, likes to work with kids, works well with others, writes great lessons, works well with parents, fits well in the district, etc. Is there anything about this that you disagree with?
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You have not disagreed with the statement that hiring a "good candidate" with the qualities mentioned above would be a good thing for our students and schools. This should be painfully obvious to anybody with half a brain.
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You don't disagree with the very simple arguments but you call the collection ridiculous. What about it is ridiculous?
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It's not ridiculous, and you know it. What you find ridiculous is spending the money at all. You want to use the market to drive down the cost first and employ whoever is left and willing to work for those wages. I want to use the market to drive up the quality of teachers and employ the finest collection of people the district can afford. This is our major difference and you would rather keep whining about lack of data than admit that your opinion is that of a tightwad who values savings on his tax bill more than he values the quality of education our students receive. Tell me where I'm wrong.

How would you use the "merit" system with teachers? Seems to me this would add more costs. You would need to hire a classroom observer, a person to look over all the work and test scores from each student and basically, a stalker to watch what each teacher does. That seems foolish to me. My children are all grown and gone but I do have grandkids in JSD and I have never heard a complaint about their teachers (they go to 3 different schools). In fact, if one of these 3rd grade teachers can handle my step grandson, more power to them, he is a hand full. Multiply that handfull per classroom, you should come up with about 5 or more that are very hard to teach and do not listen to rules. I think teachers nowadays have a rough job, I would not want it. They deserve, IMO, everything they get, if not more.

I stated in an earlier post that I would gladly pay extra for the great teachers that have done wonderful things for my children. Unfortunately we live in a world where that money will never make it to the people who deserve it.
We are too busy allowing backseat armchair hindsight is 20/20 people to manipulate our educational institutions to "leave no child behind".
News flash... what that has done is leave EVERY child behind. We have been giving watered down diplomas, to half hearted students that we have forced into part-time programs that do less than prepare tham for the real world. What job provides an IEP???
Teachers need to be supported! Students who want to be there need to be supported.
If you want tax savings... approach your government and get them to stop forcing us to educate those who do not want what we generously provide.

Continue on in your delusions. I could go point by point with you all day but you still do not answer questions or actually read what I write. You have not provided the data to back your points and have not delivered that check to the district office.

jv92: First you acknowledge that teachers will go somewhere else (and you encourage them to do so) if the pay is lowered. Then you argue that my point regarding higher pay bringing more candidates is "ridiculous." Your logic is not consistent. It's only ridiculous to you because you don't find any value in having the best teachers around and that's where you are wrong and totally short-sighted.
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I rest my case with you because you have admitted that you do not care about finding the best teachers for our schools - in fact, you prefer to find more mediocre ones that can be paid less as you don't think there is much of a difference. You want to pay less because you don't think it's that important. I want to pay more because I think it's very important. You have validated my earlier accusation that you're just a cheapskate when it comes to spending on education. You would rather have teachers who are willing to work for beans and are there "for the right reasons" than pay to find teachers who are also there for the right reasons but also happen to be fantastic, talented teachers. You seem to think that there is no such thing as a talented teacher who cares about the kids, or if there is, you want to lowball them and push them into a different profession. You are foolish.

Teachers may not "not doing surgery or flying the space shuttle" but they have a more valuable role....they teach and train those who will do this - and much more - in the future! Teachers are far too under appreciated, generally too disrespected for the professionals they are, and too easily dismissed from consideration when there are budget challenges. THANK a teacher today for having the passion to help each and every student and the persistence to persevere when underpaid and undervalued!

My kids are students in the Janesville School District and they both have outstanding teachers. They deserve every penny they earn if not more.

unions: neither punish the bad or reward the good. unions reward all behavior.

A lot of union jobs in the manufacturing sector are gone due to union demands. The only ones left will be the private sector until the wages and benefit become unsustainable to the taxpayers, With this economy on a slow decline I wonder how much longer it will take for that sector to wake up. The golden goose has only so much gold and then it will be gone.

God bless our wonderful Janesville teachers. They certainly deserve more than these selfish, negative commenters are willing to give them.

phbp,
one other thing, nice use of the "golden rule" by your own bad self.

phbp,
i never said i hate teachers.
what i dislike is the deal they're being offered in a very bad economy.
please re-read my posts.
i was especially miffed by some of the teacher reaction in this article (specifically those who didn't like the agreement but voted for it anyway).
please keep in mind, teachers are not the ONLY people/profession who put in overtime.
in my sales job, especially when i'm travelling, i frequently land in a city and am required to finalize agreements well into the dark of night. my salary does not compensate me for those extra hours. and trust me, my deal is not nearly as good as yours (and you're not paying a cent of my comp package).

Question #1 Yes, they are not doing surgery or flying the space shuttle.

Question #2 Yes, congratulations! It happens everyday! It's called the free market place. You made my point for me. If teachers don't like the pay they receive, they don't have to do it. I have been trying to get you to see this for what...going on 2 days? It happens all the time in every profession. SO the ones that really want to teach "for the kids" will be there for the right reasons.

Question? #3 Yeah...whatever, I lack common sense. OK. Still have not presented the data to back your ridiculous point. Signed that check yet?

Didn't think so. Typical.

jv92: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your argument can be summarized by saying that we don't need to pay teachers as well as we do because we don't need to attract the best to the field. Is this your position?
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You sure do like to oversimplify things, don't you? You seem to believe that the only reason a person could choose teaching is because EITHER he or she wants to do it for the kids OR because it pays well. Don't you think there are many people out there - especially the ones with the most talent - who would like to work with kids but would take a different path if the pay was drastically different?
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I stand by my reasoning that more pay brings more and better candidates which provide better instruction. You will never agree to that as long as a union has anything to do with determining the level of pay and it's pointless arguing with you about it. I think you have made it clear to everybody reading here that your anti-union hat is blocking any common sense from entering your head and leading you to believe that children are best served by decreasing the incentives for young people to enter the teaching field. Were you to argue that the pay should be lowered because the community can't afford the wages we're giving to teachers I would still disagree with you but at least it would be a valid point. Instead you make choose to illustrate just how little you value the job that teachers do and that, I think, is the foundation of your poor argument.

Lots of jealousy and anti-teacher feelings here. I would imagine that these folks hated school when they were kids too. It's a shame. Janesville has outstanding teachers!

SarahB1 - Parents don't need to "find" a way to decrease a kids behaviors. They should as Niki would say just "do it". Then send your kids to school for an education.
If the school board or teachers enacted something to change the bad students, you would no doubt be the first to complain.

Sarah,It will never happen. The union would fight to the death to prevent it.

Hey King Rizzo,
Dr. Schulte will probably be in her office within an hour. I eagerly await your report about how she gladly accepted your check for 2 or 3 grand.

I agree with merit paying teachers.At back to school night some years ago .My parents were told by a teacher that he really didnt need to be here teaching, his family owned a resort in Wisc Dells.Also I went to Craig and I had some really terrible teachers,but I also had some excellent ones too.I think students should have some say about the teachers teaching them.

There is a process for improving low performing teachers. If the teacher does not improve, there is a process for ending the relationship.

The argument based on fear about "bad" teachers being compensated the same as all the others is one to which the leaders in the buildings need to be held accountable. A good leader will shape the "bad" teacher into a better teacher or help him/her recognize the job is not a good fit for him/her.

Trouble with labeling a teacher "bad" is that in my 21 years of knowing teachers at every level in Janesville, some of the same teachers "avoided" by certain families have been sought after by others. Human beings are subject to many influences. Some parents want a teacher who is strict and holds little Johnny accountable. Other parents want all the work finished at school so they do not have any responsibilities in educating their own children. Some parents feel the homework is too easy or standards for learning are too low. Others will not support even basic goals. . . . you get the picture. Get to know the teachers, visit schools, volunteer, or come out during an evening event. Get to know the building principals and ask how you can help.

Test scores are one measure -- and we all want children to learn and grow. However there are skills that tests don't measure--human relations. Teachers in public schools are continuously teaching a complex blend of academics and social skills. What may be standard operation at home could get a person arrested in public. Teachers have to help kids navigate the complexities of behaviors they see live or in the media and teach them what is acceptable in public settings. Some children already have positive social behaviors and strong work ethics, others do not.

Until you have positive suggestions on how to improve our society and thus our opportunities to succeed in the global economy of the 21st century, teacher bashing just helps avoid facing reality.

Booch and Jv92 -- why are you two so angry and bitter towards teachers? The words you say are truly hurtful and in many cases, false. While you spent close to eight hours repeatedly coming back to this blog just to bash teachers, I spent four of those hours grading work, making a math game, and trying to figure out how to make learning fun, interesting, and understandable in reading, language, math, social studies, science, health, and spelling for my diverse group of learners. I'm was up at 5 this morning, and am now "enjoying" my coffee (although not anymore) reading this blog before I head into work at 6:30. I was so frustrated I had to comment.

What is the point of being so disrespectful? I teach my students that it is okay to question something you do not understand as long as you do so respectfully. I see nothing respectful in many of your comments. Does no one use the “Golden Rule” anymore? I would NEVER tear apart your career, your salary, or anything . I would never share or imply things that are blatant lies. (FYI: DROP the 4 to 4 1/2 months off garbage. I started working this year the first week of August (setting up my classroom along with every other teacher at my school) and I will work until the third week of June. With NO air conditioning. Oh, and I will be taking classes during the rest of June and July.)

I became a teacher to make a difference in the world, and to be that teacher I never had the opportunity to have. I spend countless hours at school or thinking about school when at home because of my love for the job. However, I do not love ignorant bloggers who love talking about something they obviously do not (or never will) understand. Nevertheless, I am a teacher. I teach the Bill of Rights, and I value Freedom of Speech. Everyone has a right to his/her own opinion; I just wish that opinions were shared more courteously.

Have a nice day, Booch and Jv. I hope you can spend another day putting in some quality time on this website. I'm going to go and make a difference now.

I would say that finding ways to engage, motivate and teach 30 kids from 30 families who utilize 4 or 5 different learning styles, and simultaneously educating 4 or 5 with special needs while maintaining classroom discipline and a positive learning environment and keep up with all those parent contacts.....
(whew - tired just typing that and I didn't even mention the counseling requirements) makes surgery or shuttle flight engineering look pretty simple.

Stop going back to the usual union talking points and avoiding the questions.

First you reiterate a poor argument about graduates, argue we need to keep pay where it is to attract the teachers when the marketplace clearly does not agree with you. They knew the pay scale meaning they were not going to get rich and sometimes they would have to have frozen wages. Maybe for multiple years at a time. But for the sake of argument lets say I'm wrong (which I'm not). Lets assume you are right. Teachers got into teaching because of the security, healthcare, and such (gosh I still thought it was for the kids.) We have so many people going into teaching that is a sign we need to scale back compensation to more closely reflect the market. Why if you are a business owner is this so hard to get?

The data you fail to provide does not exist because your whole line of reasoning would not pan out in the data. More compensation=better candidates=better instruction. It's false and an anecdotal reference to another poster shows you know your point is without merit.

"This reinforces my point exactly. So far, we have paid teachers fairly well, given them good benefits, and provided reason for them to believe that that level of compensation would continue. As a result young people have flocked to the field. Schools get to pick the best ones and the worst are left to find a different field." OK this really makes no sense. So you'd equate teaching with say flying the space shuttle or doing surgery? Sorry, I think teachers have a tough job but do not require the skills or talent of a shuttle flight engineer or surgeon. So there is no need to jack the compensation to the sky.
Again you have failed to explain why we need to attract the best of the best of the best if they are all state certified and licensed. You did not explain how you are able to know when one teacher is better than another because I really want to get you in there to get that pay based on merit system going.
My anti-union blather? Does your business pay any taxes? Oh, don't get me started. I love union bashing. I do it with the best of them! It's on of my hobbies and I'm good at it because they are sooo easy to take apart point by point.

booch11: "there isn't a company next door offering $15 an hour jobs" ... "which is exactly why we had 100 applicants"
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So, you were offering the highest paying job around and you got a huge pool of applicants. Thank you for illustrating my point. jv92 - is this sufficient data for you?
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"the only companies offering lavish benefits these days are gov and schools."
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That's just plain false.
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I knew plenty of people who made it to college that were little monsters in school. I also know professional people who were little monsters. But that's not the point, and I didn't mean to offend you by suggesting your daughter was a little monster. My point was that I have heard many more stories of parents getting angry with teachers because they disciplined their precious children than I have heard stories of actual bad teachers. Know what I mean?

jv92: I already explained to you that I own a small business and am at the mercy of the free market every day. I have been rather successful with it so far so I think I have a pretty good grasp on how it works. You need to relax with your anti-union blather.
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If the graduate is a talented individual and has the choice of working in an elementary school starting at $30k with no promise of future increases or working in some other field about which he or she is passionate and can earn $50k out of the gate, which makes more sense? Believe it or not, people can be passionate in more than one subject and one that pays a lot more than the other is going to get their attention faster.
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"They knew the pay scale before they got into the profession."
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Yes, exactly. And they knew it has a history of going up regularly and rewarding people for staying in the salary schedule longer and committing to a district. That's called an "incentive". You want to end that for some reason.
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"Your points still make no sense and ignore free market principles."
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One of my points is that teacher compensation shouldn't necessarily follow free market principles, or at least your version of them which says that we should find the people who are willing to work for the least amount. Your free market principles would not attract the best candidates into teaching and that would be a bad thing. What doesn't make sense about any of my points? You have so far asked me to provide data to support one of the steps in my logic but that would suggest that it at least makes sense.
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"Oh almost forgot...it doe not look as though many recent graduates are being dissuaded from becoming teachers. UWW's teaching program is always filled to the brim so there does not appear to be a shortage. Another of your points does not square with reality."
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This reinforces my point exactly. So far, we have paid teachers fairly well, given them good benefits, and provided reason for them to believe that that level of compensation would continue. As a result young people have flocked to the field. Schools get to pick the best ones and the worst are left to find a different field. You start reducing the pay or benefits and you will see fewer young people willing to go that direction and thus, schools will have a lesser chance of seeing the best candidates when an opening comes up. You know that logic makes sense and so you're just going to insist on having some data that shows that higher compensation means more applicants. Think about that statement for two seconds and you will realize it needs no data to support. People go where the money is.

kingrizzo,
one more thing, i take umbrage to your insinuation that my daughter or my neighbors' kids are a "little monsters." all of the kids you call in to question are in college and are already professionals in their fields.
funny that you assume all teachers are good yet those who call some teachers into question have kids who are bad.
are you familiar with the phrase "kettle calling the pot black?"

kingrizzo,
i have read not only articles but the entire contract.
it's a sweet deal. (As proof, hmmmm, school district is upping their contribution to the teachers' retirement fund from 12.3% to 12.9% and teachers who VOLUNTEER their time now get $15 an hour to VOLUNTEER).
in this contract, prez of the union will see a nearly $14,000 raise.
not bad in this economy.
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sadly, in this economy, there isn't a company next door offering $15 an hour jobs -- thus no sloppy seconds as you so crudely say. (which is exactly why we had 100 applicants -- this is the REAL world my friend).
the only companies offering lavish benefits these days are gov and schools. and all those bennies come from taxpayers.

By the way...you don't want to test my statement because you know you'd lose, plain and simple. There's NO data to support paying teachers more improves instruction. I think we can lay that one to rest. Oh almost forgot...it doe not look as though many recent graduates are being dissuaded from becoming teachers. UWW's teaching program is always filled to the brim so there does not appear to be a shortage. Another of your points does not square with reality.

But King they always say they do it for the kids? If the graduate is dissuaded by the lack of pay, was the graduate in it for the right reasons? Money or kids? They knew the pay scale before they got into the profession. Your points still make no sense and ignore free market principles. I suggest you put down the union pamphlet, stop listening to mom the teacher, and get out into the unprotected world that is the free market. You'll be better for it. You'll be paid based on how valuable you are and won't have to resort to poor emotional attacks, name calling, and pandering that the union teaches its robots.

booch11: if you want to discuss how the contract rewards "ALL" teachers I will. As I mentioned earlier, I think you highly overestimate the number of bad teachers that exist. There are already too many teachers applying for jobs for many bad teachers to get through. Your stories about your neighbors doesn't surprise me at all - the teachers they told you to avoid were probably some of the better ones - ones that told your neighbors that their kids are little monsters and that they need to do a better job parenting so that their children weren't such disruptions.
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"i ran a company that had entry level jobs for $12 an hour. we posted two openings and had 100+ applicants."
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And if the factory next door was advertising an opening looking for similar candidates and was offering $15 an hour, you're going to wind up with sloppy seconds, aren't you? If you suggest that the line of applicants would "stretch a mile" no matter what the compensation, what kind of quality do you expect to see in that mile-long line as the pay drops?

Have you actually read the articles about this contract?
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The teachers accepted no back pay for the year they worked without a contract and a lower than average raise, instead making it known that they were primarily seeking changes to working conditions. The district accepted and acknowledged that the teachers could have gotten more through arbitration. Sounds like they reached a great compromise to me. Yet, you say the teachers look bad because they took any raise at all. Get real. The people who came out of this looking bad are the ones blubbering here on these comments about how they didn't deserve one penny more and are greedy slackers.
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I'm not a teacher and never have been one, but I remember the teachers I had when I was in school and recognize what an impact they had on my life. I remember that there were good teachers, average teachers, and bad teachers. I can think of maybe 1 or 2 bad ones (not counting college) and quite a few great ones. I am grateful that those people chose to enter and stay in the teaching profession and I think that we should do everything we can to attract similar people into the profession in newer generations.
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We don't need to test the statement that more pay=better hires because every person who reads it can understand it. Picture yourself as a young high school graduate at the top of your class. You would like to go into teaching but could have your choice of many professions. Which is going to make you more likely to go into and stay in teaching: a guarantee of a nice wage and good benefits for the span of your career or the knowledge that you will be expected to work for whatever the next lowest offer is?
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Finally, I think the whole free marketplace argument is a moot point anyway, because teachers would end up making a similar amount were the unions to be dissolved. Sure, they might have to pay more in healthcare premiums or give up some other benefits, but their salaries would probably rise to make up for it. Teachers are professionals with a fair amount of training and I think most people would agree we need them to be exactly that. If they aren't paid as such they won't enter the field and so that's why wages are what they are.

kingrizzo,
if you carefully look back at what i said, rather than assume what you think i said, i would happily reward good teachers. but the system rewards ALL teachers.
when we came to this school district, we asked our neighbors which teachers to avoid. guess what? they had a long list at the ready.
as for lesser benefits attracting a smaller pool, once again, go back to what i said.
i ran a company that had entry level jobs for $12 an hour. we posted two openings and had 100+ applicants.
seriously, you don't really think offering a fraction of this contract would result in fewer applicants? the line would stretch a mile.

domino,
i'll visit you in june, july and august when you're manicuring your lawn and sipping tea while i'm still working til 10p.
and then when you're 57 and relaxing for the next 20-30 years of your life on my dime, you can some visit me greeting you at walmart.

So who says these teachers are of lesser quality? If they are these people (judges) need to step forward because anytime somebody brings up the idea of merit pay based on evaluations, all the teachers on this board say it is unfair and impossible to measure teacher quality. So where do you get the special talent? Perhaps you are a teacher as I supposed earlier? Maybe a retired one?

No, no, no lets go with Nicolet. Use the extremes to make your point. Are the teachers paid more? Is the increase in pay a linear relationship to test scores? I doubt it.

The part of your logic that does not make sense is that offering more money attracts better teachers. OK so now you provided more info on your rationale for this statement. More money=more candidates=better hires. This is a testable statement. Do you have data that supports this assertion. If not there is no need to automatically offer the most money to attract more candidates. This logic also simply ignores the market forces of supply and demand which all of us in the free market place deal with every day. Your logic also ignores the point that several teachers have made on this site about how impossible it is to determine teacher quality.

I don't think teachers are any different than the rest of us. They just want a job. They aren't going to work for 10k (and they shouldn't) but they certainly would take less pay and benefits to save their jobs, IF the free marketplace were anywhere near our public schools which it is not. Hopefully a new governor will have the equipment to face down the unions.

This recent episode was actually a net loss for the teachers. They did not look good and it was not in their best interest to push for a raise during a recession right after Janesville lost so many businesses. They should have pushed any interest except a raise. My guess is this contract will come back to bite them. Enjoy!

Sorry Booch, but I don't work in an air-conditioned building. Maybe you should visit in May or June when kids are wilting on their desk. Nice try though.

Don't pretend like every licensed teacher is of equal quality. Half the haters who comment negatively about the contract make that their whole point - the "bad" teachers get the same raises as the "good" teachers and so, they suppose, the union just promotes mediocrity. I think the percentage of "bad" teachers is very highly overestimated by these people, but that's a different discussion. You are arguing that we should pay the lowest possible rates for teachers and expect that we will still somehow retain the "good" teachers? wtf?
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Your example using MPS is about as valid as if I were to use a district like Nicolet as an example for the opposite argument. Picking the extremes to illustrate a point is really not good practice.
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Before I provide any data for you, tell me which step of my logic you disagree with and want to see data on:
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Higher pay for teachers attracts a larger pool of candidates when a job opens. A larger pool of candidates is more likely to include a larger number of "good" teachers from which to select. "Good" teachers provide a better education for our children. Therefore, higher pay for teachers results in a better education for our children.

How is this going to help us rebound from these hard economic times like the Cheryl Heth says? This only provides a financial boost to teachers by increasing pay and retaining jobs. What about the dwindling population in this county that must now foot the bill. It is money out of or pocket that In Order To Preserve This Education System we will not see a return on this money for years and years likely if at all.
I have not had a job for a year and a half yet I am expected to pay the increased taxes for these raises. If this money comes out of my pocket and it is above and beyond what was projected for the budget where is my say in the matter?
These teachers might end up working themselves out of jobs at this rate. How much more are they going to want next time around, especially if the economy has rebounded. GIVE A LITTLE AND TAKE A MILE.

I'm still waiting on that data that shows students do better when districts "invest" in teacher salaries.

Your lowest common denominator point makes no sense. If these people were not qualified, they would not have been licensed and certified by the state. So picking teachers that will take lower pay and benefits does not equal poorer instruction.

Your point: "If I'm looking to hire someone, I want to offer the highest compensation I can afford so I can attract the best candidates." What you can afford is a relative term. So maybe we should recruit only teachers that require $150,000 per year. Then test scores should go through the roof? I doubt it. There is NO connection between pay and performance in teachers because there is no market pressure in that profession.

jv92: With the current system and its oversupply of well-qualified teachers, our schools get to cherry-pick the best candidates and put them to work for our children. Knock the compensation down and the pool of candidates shrinks, along with the likelihood that you're getting the best teachers you can afford.
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If I'm looking to hire someone, I want to offer the highest compensation I can afford so I can attract the best candidates. Your theory that a long line of applicants is bad is true if you're hiring someone for manual labor and just want the cheap product, but with a job as important as teaching, I don't want the lowest common denominator. I think you are being incredibly short-sighted with your opinion on that matter.

I'm not trying to sharp shoot you. I really would like data that says when teachers are paid more students do better. Actually it is quite the opposite. Look at Milwaukee Public School system. The per dollar spent number is quite high but the school system is one of the worst in the nation. I have yet to see a credible study that demonstrates this effect you propose. So your "vicious cycle theory" is nothing but union speak talking points.

King,
I simply cannot agree that money to teachers improves education. It is not "investing." You and I both know that for every teacher teaching now there are hundreds of qualified, state certified, well educated teachers prepared to step right in and teach. They are just praying for a job. The supply of qualified teachers is very high. This suggests there should be strong downward pressure on their wages and benefits. There however is not because the unions and state governance has stacked the deck against the tax payer. They have effectively prevented the marketplace from bringing teacher pay in line with the laws of supply and demand. I for one believe the tax payers have suffered because the marketplace has not been allowed to work.

jv92: Your vision of schools as institutions that do nothing but hemorrhage money is misguided. Can you not fathom that the money is being spent on something incredibly useful and necessary? If you cut spending on schools in tough economic times (when "so many of us are struggling") you will start a viscous cycle where kids in the next generation will start their working years with skills that won't get them anywhere but their nearest auto plant, and we have seen what happens then, haven't we? The local economy will sink even further and you'll be sitting there in your rocking chair calling for further cuts because the economy is in such a rut. Show some foresight, invest in the future now and perhaps we can turn things around.
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For the record, I don't have a tax trough either - I own a small business and pay more in taxes than I otherwise would with the money I make.
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booch11: "i worked cleaning factory paint pits and watched three colleagues die in an industrial accident." . . . "my daughter graduated from chs a semester early and is excelling at college"
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And I suppose she did it all without the help and encouragement of any teachers? Do you appreciate the irony here that you're bashing teachers in one breath and bragging about your daughter's education in another?
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truth1: "most of who have 'degrees'"
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Yes. "degrees." Something you must know a lot about.

rocky,
IF kingrizzo purchased from jv92 -- BIG IF.
what i do know is our taxes pay those teachers (note the word PUBLIC).
our unemployment rate is up, social security is frozen, teachers get a raise, get a locked tiny health care payment for a cadillac plan, and get to renegotiate if inflation hits 2.50 -- so they get more money.
my taxes are not frozen.
my healthcare costs are rising.
my original point -- way back when -- was SOME teachers were unhappy with the agreement.
not much blood left in the turnip.

Wrong on all fronts Rocky. I actually live in the marketplace. If my customers don't like products or services I provide, they leave and it costs me money. My customers have a direct say in my living unlike teachers. If I disagree with what they do, say, or what I am paying I have little recourse. Yay for them. Mediocrity encouraged and incompetence protected!

Booch - I bet King Rizzo does pay JVL92's salary. Perhaps not through tax dollars (but maybe so if he is on social security), but if he makes anything or provides a service, then everyone who buys that product or service pays his salary just as much as taxpayers pay teacher's salary. Perhaps you should seek an economics teacher and take a few lessons. Oh- and pay the going rate of about $40/hr for your lessons. Public schools are a bargain.

rkrra:
i would bet if they all quit, the line of applicants would stretch a mile.

What? Do you think the teachers taxes are untouched? Many Janesville teachers have children in school also. They are not only trying to get compensated for the crap they have to put up with from students AND parents, they are also paying for their childrens teachers. You truely have no idea how hard they have to work sometimes to please everyone. Ya, maybe they should quit...but who will take their place?

dragonfly- If there are students doing that in school and it doesn't get handled immediately, then that is a failed "system" not worthy of having any money put into any part of it...A complete failure....Many good students CANNOT learn in that environment...Why do "the people" stand for it and pay ANY taxes into such a failure?....Failed schools owned and operated by government flunkies most of who have "degrees"--- to what good I don't know---if what you say is true.

dragonfly,
nice generalization.
my daughter graduated from chs a semester early and is excelling at college while holding down a near full time job.
yeah, i suck as a parent.

kingrizzo,
IF you paid jv92's salary and benefits and had to pay his/her retirement, then you would be welcome to go tell his employer he was a terrible employee.
BUT YOU DON'T!

domino,
please.
your working conditions are soooooo bad.
i worked cleaning factory paint pits and watched three colleagues die in an industrial accident. oh, and we purchased our own safety equipment.
last i checked, you have a nice air conditioned clean work place.
poor poor teachers.
they get a total of four and a half month total off every year and just can't seem to cope.
poor poor pitiful me.
poor poor pitiful me

Thankfully KingRizzo you don't need an increase in your property taxes to contribute more. Just march your king self right down there and write a check. They will accept it. I await your report on how this went. As for being a cheapskate? If I don't watch my money nobody else will. I don't have the tax pig trough you have to go to when times are tough. It seems a lot of people including school districts could benefit from a few of us who are frugal.

What does more money have to do with better education? What does new buildings have to do with education? In time Janesville could end up like the baron parts of Detriot. Without jobs people just LEAVE! Property taxes keep going up, but no jobs to support it.

I realize that there are many people who do not agree with the teachers getting a raise in this town, these are most likely the same people that have chosen to not be parents to their children, they send their angels to school without any concern of their lack of respect for other children and adults. I challenge anyone of you that is upset about the teachers making more money to spend some quality time at any one of our fine schools in this city. You will be amazed at what you see, let me assure you! Children picking up desks and throwing them at other students and teachers. Children not wanting to do what the teacher says so they run away from the classroom, swearing, threatening behavior, and total lack of respect for anyone including themselves. Teachers many times have to be much more than just a teacher,they have to be the parent, the councelor and a friend to these students. I laugh at the people who say that if they don't like it then don't do it! I'm sure jobs are so easy to come by these days. I believe that most teachers do love what they do. They go above and beyond the call of duty!I haven't received a raise at my job in 6 years, as a matter of fact my wages were cut, but I certainly hope that people can appreciate and understand we are paying these teachers to educate our future leaders. No, I am not a teacher, just a full time volunteer at several of our schools in town, I see what happens on a daily basis. I have the highest praise for our teachers in this city.

teachers deserve a raise no more than anyone else....

Teachers say that they are second parents to our children. So what are they teaching them? That demanding a raise during difficult economic times and sticking it to the taxpayers who are unemployed, losing their homes, and the elderly who are just getting by is acceptable? I hope nothing rubs off on the kids.

jv92: "In my profession I volunteer services for no pay regularly. All of this taking time from my family."

Next time you're up for a raise, I would like to be there at the meeting with your boss to voice my opinion that I don't think you're worth it.

jv92: "Why not put your money where your mouth is and pony up more?"
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I can't speak for the other posters, but I would welcome an increase in my property taxes to cover increased costs in teacher compensation, and I don't even have any children. Not all of us are cheapskates like you.

Domino, If you were in the private sector, you'd have less "time off." Great, you volunteer. In my profession I volunteer services for no pay regularly. All of this taking time from my family. All your statements are not necessarily specific to teachers. In the end it looks like you are trying to be a martyr. Public employee martyrdom does not go over well with us in the private sector lately. Most all of us in the private sector were not "making bank" before the recession and certainly not making it now.

All of you gushing the thankfulness and praise onto teachers, why not send 2 or 3 thousand more dollars to the school district each year earmarked for teacher salaries? I'm quite certain the district would be happy to add the extra money to the coffers. Why not put your money where your mouth is and pony up more?

JV92
Just for the record, I love my job and don't complain about it. I disagree with the comments about how teachers have so much time off because I don't. Plus I'm involved on several committees which are voluntary but still take up a lot of my family time.

Thank you, Janesville teachers.

I am a product of the Janesville School System, and I can't thank the teachers enough for the great education they provided me. I have a college degree, and I am a successful professional contributing toward the economy in this town.

I get so frustrated with the constant teacher-bashing in Janesville. Cut the teachers some slack........when times were good and teachers' salaries were capped, no one worried about them. We "stiffed" them for years. I've heard people laugh at teacher salaries. Now they settled their Janesville contract and will be receiving less than the state average for a raise..........and the public is angry? Come on................

I have 2 children in elementary school I just wanted to say thanks to all the teachers out there. My children are working hard and they love school and from what I can tell their teachers are working very hard as well. I think the contract is fair and I wanted you to know that there are lots of people in Janesville who are very happy with the school system,teachers etc. Thanks

I'm betting it's the minority that actually go in 2 weeks prior to school starting. The older teachers that already have their class plan from the year before and the year before are not spending 2 weeks prior to school starting. And, I will also wager it is the minority that work 12 hour days. Don't try to label all teachers as martyrs for the cause. With that I will say I know some teachers that do a great job but I know some lazy teachers too. I tip my hat to you if you put in those kind of hours but I don't believe for one second that you are represent all teacher's commitment.

Hey Domino, don't like it? It ain't worth it? Don't do it. See clip below. Maybe we need to start electing folks like this guy in WI. Oh wait, we do have an election coming up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Nqk9e1k...

Hey Booch
You forgot to mention that you get to go in without pay for two weeks prior to school starting without pay and that you get to pay $1600 for the classes you have to take to get the raises. Oh yeah, I also have worked at least twelve hour days at least 4 days a week since the year started and just spent over $200 dollars on books so I can teach reading - all unreimbursed! Start taking your classes to become a teacher so you can partake in the easiest job in the world! You are a joke!

some were not happy?
c'mon.
** $48 monthly family (cadillacc) health care plan ($17 for individual policy) -- and the price is locked in (despite costs expected to rise dramatically).
** 16 days off over the 38 week work year.
** parr himself (union prez) nets a nearly $14,000 raise.
** nearly 13% of total salary invested for retirement
** retirement as early as age 57 with full health benefits FREE (paid for by us)
** contract is void if inflation hits 2.5%
** that's just some of the great benefits
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people say we have to give these benefits to attract the best and brightest. but as someone stated in sound off, it attracts the other kind as well.
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i ran a company and when we advertised for $13 an hour jobs (two openings) over 100 people applied.
if we offered a decent wage, a higher insurance premium with a higher deductible, and even KEPT the wonderful perks (16 days off during the 38 week work year, summers off, christmas off (for ten days), spring break for a week and every friggin' federal holiday), do you not think thousands of very qualified applicants would apply?
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frankly i'm tired of teachers being held up as the best and brightest -- some are - some aren't. those that are should be rewarded.
unfortunately, those that aren't ARE rewarded just as well.
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get over yourselves teachers -- times have changed. us rubes out here are suffering. YOU ARE NOT!