Dont look now But Bill Soda man is going to be begging the JEA once again to re-open their contract again next week. What is this guy's problem? NO MEANS NO BILL time to deal with it!!

billnewbie: The WEA offered to pay Walker's concessions in exchange for retaining the collective bargaining rights. The CB rights disintegrated, so hence, no deal. The school districts with "surpluses" are districts whose contracts expired and teachers were forced to pay the concessions. I am unaware of any school districts where teachers agreed to concessions voluntarily. If you know of some, please list them.

so it is reminders like this op ed that warm my heart. Thanks to a friend on fb for sharing this . . . would be great if the Gazette did/does.
~~~
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/03/opinio...

I"m sorry, noleftsit, but I've tried to play nice with you. You gladly accepted the math I used to confirm your $100k+ assertion, but you ignore the math I provided to show how the early retirement incentive actually saves the district money. You can't have it both ways. If my math is good, then accept both points. If it is wrong, then reject them, or provide a detailed counter-example for the one you reject. Try this:

----

Employee A - Max Salary (say 65k) teacher with family insurance (17k) This teacher works from 57-65 at a generous 2% pay increase per year (as per Walker's cost of living plan) and insurance increases it's normal 8% per year. Costs are (including 7% FICA, 6% WRS (employer) etc...) a total of $811k.

-----

Employee B is a new teacher (say $35k) starting with single coverage ($8k) and changing to family in the 3rd year. Same increases. (Remember: Walkernomics does not allow step or lane increases) Total $491k

----
Employee A retires, but keeps the insurance and is replaced by employee B. At the 8% projected rate increase Employee A's insurance
expense to the district is $180k

----

So, if employee A retires and gets 8 years benefits and the district pays those benefits and the full costs of Employee B, the total cost to the district is $671k, but if Employee A stays the expense is $811k. Looks like a net savings to the district of $140k to entice the teacher to retire early instead of working.

It should NOT be a race to the BOTTOM!! But it seems that's what the VOCAL MINORITY on these blogs wants for everyone!!

shermd71: You're right! But it will not matter what you say, teachers in Janesville will always be trashed! It's sad when you live in a community and are afraid to say what you do for a living!

No leftist, your comments make you sound uneducated, uninformed, and clueless!! I am glad I do NOT know who you are. Having such a horrible life as you must have with all of the venom that you speak must make life suck pretty bad for you. But you are a typical conservative lamb being lead to slaughter. Keep spewing your venomous hate-filled comments that are misleading, not factual, and hurtful to those that educate our children. I hope you do NOT work with others because your comments on here make it seem like you would have anger issues and NOT be a team player!!

Ezoner, I am truly sorry that you and MANY others have been furloughed, had your jobs cut, or your hours cut back, or been given double the workload, or ALL of the other bad things that happened since the 2007 recession/depression began. I fail to see how that is the fault of the teachers or the unions? For 30 years, this has been happening. Union membership has declined. ALL people's wages/salaries have been stagnant in ALL areas (including public employees) while the costs of food, fuel, and ALL other bills have skyrocketed!! I get it!! You are angry!! But why are teachers the ONLY ONES to be the whipping boys/girls? Because in the past 15 years, the AVERAGE (not the case for EVERY person or family) cost for property taxes in Janesville has gone up $150? So, that's a $10 per year increase in most people's property taxes in Janesville. And that's A LOT? REALLY? Cigarettes are about $60-80 per carton these days on average. Alcohol/beer is not cheap. Gas prices are currently $3.69 per gallon, but ALL OF THESE THINGS are the fault of the JEA also? WOW!!

Maybe some of you that know everything/nothing should volunteer at your neighborhood elementary school, middle school, or high school. I am sure the staff would welcome your assistance with open arms. But it's MUCH EASIER to stay at home, or at work, or from your phone and post these SELFISH, HURTFUL, UNINFORMED, HATE-FILLED comments that some of you conservatives post on these blogs.

Okay, I have sat around and read these comments for weeks on the different threads. I can't stand it anymore, I have to add to things to actually get FACTS out there. #1-The JEA settled the current FOUR-YEAR contract BEFORE Walker's stupid cuts to education ($800 million over 2 years). It was a 5-4 vote. #2-Comments related to the "cadillac" benefits are misleading at best. #3-A JEA member MUST take insurance through the SDJ UNLESS their spouse is also an employee with SDJ. Why is that? Why are ALL JEA members REQUIRED to take insurance through SDJ? Ever think the Fund 10 is the reason? Roughly $2-3 million per year has been stuck into the Fund 10 (SDJ checkbook for many of you) because JEA members HAVE TO TAKE insurance. Would they refuse? It's a moot point because they do not get a choice. #4-As fear has stated very eloquently on here before, in the 90's, teachers in Wisconsin took better benefits and sacrificed some of their pay due to the QEO. That was a CHOICE that was MUTUALLY agreed upon in most districts around the state. Now that the economy is tanking, teachers should have to "suffer with the rest of us?" REALLY? #5-I am ashamed to admit that I am a graduate of Janesville Schools. NOT because of the teachers. They were AMAZING!! Many of the teachers today are also amazing!! But they get bashed on these blogs by a few of you that think you know ANYTHING? You know NOTHING!!! Except what you "have heard" or what the right wing "feeds you." Many of you are angry with teachers because they are living "on easy street." I know few, if ANY, teachers that are living on easy street." They pay taxes, they spend their HARD-EARNED money locally in Janesville, and they work to help the children of Janesville. Do they deserve to be disrespected like this? From some of you "know-it-alls" who know ZERO? I think not!! You can have an opinion as a taxpayer, but you truly know NOTHING about education and the system itself!!

I never said "instructional money," I said "instructional funds," but regardless, what else do you call money used to instruct kids? I don't have access to the most recent politically correct dictionary I guess.

Of course most teachers retire before 65 and have 130 days built up. Wouldn't you if it meant another year of health benefits?

And I'm not the one that started comparing teachers to the private sector, one of you lefties did.

You guys are a joke!

Fear -- the problem is that education employees obviously feel that their personal finances are more important than everyone elses and they obviously do not want to makes exceptions. So given the current budget woes.... slash slash slash.... Let them watch some of their co-workers walk out the door.

I have been furloghed, had wages cut, have given back for the greater good,,,, obviously in WI if the union says no -- then the alternative is to cut. Works for me... Just do not raise taxes. Live within the budget and be done with it.

Lots more rhetoric from old farts that dont want to pay any taxes. Way to de-value education guys, hope you feel good trying to make it out like the teachers are "punishing" the people of Janesville, my God what an IGNORANT comment!

Retired teacher making 60-65,000 salary and 17,500 health benefits, compared to a young teacher bringing home 30-35,000 salary plus 15,000 health benefits and you dont see the savings? Try to remember NoLeftist, if a teacher retires, 99 times out of 100 times they need to be replaced. Its called 1st grade math, and you call this ameteur hour?
Again most all of your stupid assumptions are that every teacher retires at 55-57 and has the required amount of sick days to get the extra health care.
Your juvenile approach to this whole subject keeps getting better and better, you are the only one on here trying to be the smartest kid in class.
Please no more meade up terms like "instructional money" used to make teachers look like they are somehow stealing from the kids. Dont believe that term is a made up one? Google it!
Until then please stop comparing the poor private sector to the Teachers, when that was happening in the 90's when they were whining about the QEO you told them to quit whining about it, now that times are tough because the private sector made it that way, we should attack a secure profession because YOUR business mismanaged itself and cuts your pay, and offers you no benefits? Just lay off the childish garbage, or just keep on with your own amateur hour.

If there was a "deal" to help pay for benefits if Governor Walker dropped his bill, then why doesn't Mr. Parr say so? He's never said any such thing. Furthermore, other districts have kept the promise even though that bill is now the law. There was now deal. The union said they'd help, now they won't keep their word. They need someone to punish. They've settled on punishing the people of Janesville. Yep, I got it right.

its time to lay off more teachers and make more cuts. Eliminate programs, cut sports programs, eliminate coaches, whatever is required to balance the budget. Its obviously what the teachers want so they can get their free benefits. No tax payer should have to make up the difference. If they want to volumtarily.... fine. But you should not force them to make up the difference to pay for rediculous benefits that nobody else can get.

Selfish. They had to push the contract through and left the taxpayers holding the ball again. They could have waited and actually SAVED the taxpayers money. Selfish

Reading this thread, I am reminded of an Italian proverb:

"The mother of idiots is always pregnant."

NoLeftist: Are you really attempting logic on some of our misguided left-leaning friends? Their logic is based on their beliefs and by bending or distorting numbers so their point is made. The teachers have retirement benefits that are almost unequaled in private industry. What about being thankful that you were not sick instead of a bank account of unused sick days that you can use to further cost the taxpayers more money. It is time the union contracts are explored and shown to the taxpayers and consumers to see just how much the unions have cost us. There is good reason jobs are going over seas...we can't afford these contracts with all the give-aways included. And for our resident historian, fear...Here are some pretty interesting quotes from...
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.
... Abraham Lincoln

Hey guys, back online. I see you guys are still stuck in the ditch. Where to start?

1. Retirement incentives are common. Great, then in won't be hard to name one private enterprise in all of Rock County that provides 8 years of heallth insurance converage at no cost to the employee upon retirement.

2. The QEO was brought up in response to a gentleman who had said that those benefits had been negotiated over decades, making the QEO quite meaningful for purposes of that discussion.

3. First I was taken to task by someone insisting that all school money was instructional funds. I corrected that misperception. Now I'm taken to task for what exactly? All money used to pay retirement benefits come out of the same funds that are used to pay teachers, not capital funds, for example. The higher the benefits, the fewer teachers you can afford.

3.Let's be clear on the math. First I was a liar because I said total health retirement benefits were more than $100k. Now I'm a liar because they only total (8 years x $16,250) - (130 sick days x $125) = $113,750? The funny thing is that these new facts that show the cost being at $113k are being put forth by the same clown that said they were $70k just yesterday afternoon. I stand by my pathetic comment.

4. The retirement benefits are actually saving money. This is hilarious. I mean, really, if that's the case, why not pay 10, even 20 years of benefits? I'd love to see the economics equation there. That's such a joke.

Or look at it this way: the JEA has set up its pay scale to pay older teachers more based on the fact that they are better teachers. That means the district is purposely reducing instructional funds to get rid of our best teachers.

Keep 'em coming. It's amateur lefty hour here at the Gazette!

It is quite obvious the animosity between Board President Bill Sodemann and SDJ labor played out in this spring/summer-long saga.
.
Does he ever take ownership of his failing on not brokering a deal with the union? Does he have any sense of responsibility in this failing district? Does he recognize how his approach fostered no solution? Doesn't he wonder if this may have played out differently if a union-supportive leader was at the helm? Doesn't he realize how hypocritical it is to ask labor to sacrifice while blindly supporting Walker's union-busting tactics? Doesn't he realize how illogical it is demand sacrifice without fostering trust? Wouldn't it make sense for him to resign after so much failure?
.
I guess he'll go on living in his political, fantasy world--while our kids' live out the reality of p-poor school funding.

The answer to that is NO and NO. Unfortunately you will just get some garble about how its different when taxpayers are paying their salaries. Unfortunately the rhetoric sometimes is louder than the reality. I have worked in the private sector for most my life and my salary is what I am paid, in almost 20 years in private business, I only started getting those reports when the economy tanked. Kind of like a guilt trip. Glad I left that hole , they sold the business right out from under about a hundered emplyees a week before Christmas. the new corporate buyer decided to eliminate all vacation for all employees no matter how many years of service and no matter how many days they had saved up , reporting to work every day for 10 years. So much for loyalty! And some of you wonder why unions are necessary?

I'm curious, do most employees count the cost of their benefits when they report their income? When you go to the bank for a loan, and they ask what you earn each year, do you include the cost of your insurance?

""The district also makes money by replacing the experienced teacher with a less expensive unexperienced teacher. That generally means the district SAVES MONEY on early retirement for the first six years breaks even year seven and loses money on year 8, but that year 8 money is what the $16,250 is for.""
The end of Mr Riefs posting, thanks Jim . I like having reference points to shoot down Right wing repeaters that have no real info, and enjoy bashing you guys, keep fighting the good fight.

on July 31 Jim posted:
There are basically 3 ways to retire:
1) at age 62 with less than 30 years of experience and recieve 36 months of health (not dental or prescription) coverage

2) from age 55 to 62 with 10+ years in the district and a total of 20+ years in Wisconsin... this grants you 48 months of the same health (not dental or prescription) coverage

3) from option 2 you can BUY up to 48 addtional months by turning in unused sick days
30 - 39 days = 12 months
40 - 97 days = 24 months
98 - 129 days = 36 months
130+ days = 48 months any days over 130 are surrendered each year on June 30th

If a teacher earns the 4 years the district recoops at least $16,250 in unused sick days ($125 per day for sub x 130+ days).
Is that clear enough for you Nolftist? Your 136k figure doesnt seem quite right now does it? Unless you assume that EVERY single teacher retires at age 57 and has AT LEAST 130 sick days to use, that is a HUGE A$$umptions on your part, but I wouldnt expect any less from you. Mr Rief is a lead negotiator for the JEA and has real knowledge of this, something you really can not aspouse to.
You werent "lying" you are just mis informed, as usual. Also you take HUGE leaps and make HUGE a$$umptions that do you no good except to understand that you are a HATER!!

Patrhetic?? Funny I think the same thing about you everytime you sit down at the keyboard. Please quote your sources about how it comes from "instructional money", that is a rhetorical term coined by people that want to bash teachers. Does all of teachers money come from "instructional money"?
Google "instructional mone" and see what comes up, yet another coined term by a hater.
Also lets get it straight NoLeftist, I misunderstood your original post as meaning a teacher gets 100k salary and benefits here in janesville, I actually went back and read your vitriol so I could be clear.
Just so we can be FACTUAL, I will quote Jim Rief who is much more educated than any of you weirdos.

Nolfestist - I think you underestimate the use of early retirement incentives in the private sector. They are fairly common. Why? Because they are effective ways to move out older, expensive workers and replace them with younger, cheaper workers. You are correct in asserting that, without early retirement benefits, teachers will still eventually retire, but how will working those extra years effect the district's bottom line? So although the early retirement benefit can seem quite costly (your $100k+), you are quoting a "gross" figure, The "net" to the district for every early retirement is actually a benefit to the district's bottom line. Elimination of that incentive would have a political "feel good" effect, but would negatively impact district finances.

----

BTW - discussion of QEO costing is about 3 years out of date, and meaningless.

Although your opinion is nice, seabee, your previous comments may reflect a bias based on party affiliaton. Here is some evidence that may or may not shed some light on the truth.
http://gazettextra.com/weblogs/latest-ne...

"MILWAUKEE (AP) The number of Milwaukee children using public money to attend private schools has reached an all-time high even as public school enrollment continues to drop."
http://gazettextra.com/weblogs/latest-ne...

Taking money from public education and spending it on private school vouchers is perplexing. More money for less students for the same quality is NOT fiscally responsible! As a taxpayer, I can not support this squandering of my tax dollars. As a believer in less government, I also can not support the republicans spending tax monies to help support a capitalistic venture. I do, however, believe in the premise of providing every citizen with a free and adequate education in the public schools. Spin it any way you want, the candles burn the same. One just takes care of more for less...

bill - what do you not understand? Walker said no to that deal, RIGHT?! The teachers haven't broken any promise, as every teacher I know still stands by their statement that they'll give in to the financials in turn for collective bargaining.

Seabee - you are obviously clueless regarding what the union does for the children in their classrooms. Think what you want, but you have no expertise to base your opinion on.

Tulkas, I went to both private and public schools. Public schools didn't hold a candle. There can be no compromise with collective looting, er I mean "bargaining". The terms are mutually exclusive.

billnewbie,
You are like a broken record. Teachers were willing to compromise and make concessions ONLY if Walker were to leave collective bargaining alone. He was unwilling to compromise, so no deal. You have been rebutted several times pertaining to this fact, yet you persist with the same erroneous arguement.
Also, to insinuate that teachers are going to take out their frustrations on their students, or anyone, is ludicrous! The majority of teachers are professionals and behave as such in their classes. You have no concrete evidence to back up your assumption that private schools in Wisconsin provide a better education for kids. In fact, they are about the same, and in many areas, public schools are better. Google it or search it on this website. Quit lying, guy!

What a shock! The JEA won't co-operate by keeping their word even though their union promised that their members would be glad to help out school districts that are wrestling with budget problems! What a surprise!

OK, there's really nothing unexpected here. The union's mad at Governor Walker and they want vengeance. They can't get to him directly, so they'll settle for hurting the ones they can touch, the residents of Janesville. After all, a few of us must have voted for him. The rest will understand, they hope. Now let's all hope they feel better now, so that they don't visit some more payback on their young charges, the students.

I hope Governor Walker has expansion of school choice vouchers on his agenda. Judging from the overwhelming response they got in Racine, the parents want it big time. And after this in-your-face action of our union, the taxpayers will want it too. Imagine, a way to save money and a way to get a better education for your children. Priceless!

The insurance benefit at the higher end is only for 8 years if you have taught in the distict for a certain number of years, have the required sick days, are married at the time of retirement, single coverage is less, and are 55 to 57 when you retire. Even if you were eligible for 8 years it doesn't continue past 65 so it would only be for the number of years between retirement and 65. Also some of the coverage is less or has higher % of pay. So you might want to check ages, family coverage before you average the numbers estimated. Yes I am one of them, I did start at 21, taught for 35 years, had many more then 130 days, and loved teaching the children.

Are you serious? The fact that retirement benefits are paid over a period of years is both common knowledge and irrelevant: it costs the district the same amount of money over the same period of time.

I said retirement benefits were > $100k. It's actually $136k and now evidently everyone agrees to that, even those who said I posted "LIES."

Further, these funds are paid out of instructional funds, not subject to QEO, and not negotiated, each point you all attempted to spin.

You continue shameless spinning by saying "you are required to teach for thirty years to be eligible for the pension," without mentioning that that's not true for health benefits.

Or how about this: now that you've proven the benefits are over $100k per teacher, "it's not that much money." Or "it's the health insurance company's fault," which is laughable because most teachers are insured by the TEACHERS' INSURANCE COMPANY - the WEA Trust, which is more expensive than any for-profit insurance.

You people are pathetic!

NoLeftist, whyare you arguing about teachers salaries? If you are so intent on jealously about their salaries, why don't you go to school and become a teacher? Or is this what we have become? A society that is intent on destroying the very fabric of our lives because of jealously? "A teacher makes $100,000 in salary and benefits"....who cares? Yeah there are going to be exceptions but I would gladly pay most teachers I know more than that cause they are worth it. These are the people that are shaping the lives of our children, to all those who say "fire them all" and replace them with straight out of college teachers, well you must not have children, cause my belief is I would rather have a tenured teacher who has experience than a "new" teacher who is just trying to grasp what it entails to become a "good" teacher. Quit being jealous, no one made a peep when the going was good, then fiscal fear mongering came along and all of a sudden the teachers are greedy money loving cadillac escalade driving scum. Give me a break, if any of you actually fall for that bottom of the barrel cop out, well I feel for you and wish you the best in life. Support the schools, support the teachers and raise our taxes!

Nolftist, are you a human top??:)

""But again, this is all an academic argument because americanproducts and fearandrhetoric are busy wrapping up their calls and typing up their responses that prove I have been lying, as they both have both intimated""

Sounds like you are afraid of responses of people that like to search for the facts NoLeftist. I just like to KNOW whats going on, not just pile on with the rhetoric that makes little if any sense. Posting numbers like 136,000 could scare the crap out of someone, until they realize that they have to divide that number by 8, then look at the fact that 17,000 per year per retired teacher out of an operating budget of 115 million dollars, sounds a little petty to me. How many teachers retire each year? 15? 20?

""To meet QEO requirements, the employer must maintain the employees’ fringe benefits and continue to pay its percentage of the cost, including annual cost increases. Changes in fringe benefit costs determine the amounts available for salary increases.
A QEO is usually expected to include a minimum annual salary increase equal to at least 2.1% of the existing compensation and fringe benefits package. However, QEO requirements are met if salary and fringe benefits in combination total a 3.8% increase. For example, if complying with fringe benefits requirement results in an increase of 1.9%, the salary percentage could be lowered to 1.9%, totaling 3.8%. If fringe benefit costs by themselves exceed 3.8%, the QEO may propose an average salary decrease for any 12-month period covered by the offer.
The major QEO change, enacted in Act 237, was to require that, for contracts beginning July 1, 1999, and later, savings that result when the fringe benefit increase is less than the 1.7% must be added to the 2.1% salary minimum for a total 3.8% increase""

This is from:
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lrb/pubs/budb...
While health retirement benefits are NOT included in this, it doesnt matter, the cost of Health Benefits are, the very benefits that active teachers recieve , retired ones do. Maybe if insurance companies wouldn't artificially inflate prices, we wouldnt have this problem? I blame private sector insurance companies, not retiring teachers.
Again this seems like nothing more than attempt to spin numbers in your direction to make an ideological point. I think everyone knows where you are based on your screen name okay? No need to try to bash retired teachers who served their community and generations of Americans for 30+ years! Get over yourself!

BTW all of this info can be found on the JSD website. I wont bother linking it because I know those who disagree won't go there anyways.

Unfortunately NLeftist, you are wrong I dont intimate anything.
I will say this, A$$uming a teacher lands a job right out of college(most dont) but some do, that is generally at age 23 or 24 depending on how long college takes you. That means that you would be eligible for retirement at age 53 or 54, because you are required to teach for thirty years to be eligible for the pension. Very few teachers retire then because even with the MAXIMUM amount of sick days to trade for insurance (130) that gets you 48 months of coverage. On top of the 4 years that is actually paid out to each retiring teacher for health care you still come up short of 65 the age that you qualify for medicare.
You can spin the numbers however you want to, the teachers are allowed to use accrued sick days to trade for benefits, that should NOT be used as a standard because not every teacher retires with enough days to trade in to recieve such benefits. If you want to use the 4 years as a standard that would be correct, but that number still falls WELL below the 100k that you like to make it look like comes out each and every year for every single teacher. If a teacher retires the district pays 17,000 a year for health ins for 4 years, that is....68,000 dollars OVER FOUR YEARS. Lets say a teacher waits to retire until 65, they essentially get the sick days they are owed in a check, not benefits. I know that it wont matter to you, but these are the facts of the matter. I didn't make any "calls" to the JEA, and your attempted antagonization of myself and the other guy is laughable.
Now if you want to make the argument that it all comes from the tax base then you would be correct, but to say that every teacher just "gets" 8 years of free health care from the JSD after retiring is FALSE and misleading on your part. If you want to discuss facts we can, just don't spin them to make teachers look like they have some kind of golden parachute when they retire, or as if they are retiring at the age of 35, K? We can have an honest debate here , just leave the partisan politics alone, makes you look silly.

Health retirement benefits were not included in the QEO and thus not restricted by it, not reported as part of the costs of contract increases, and the costs of the increases in those benefits were not negotiatied: they were automatic.

Again, the poster either knew all of these facts and didn't mention them, or was ignorant.

And how do you think the teachers negotiated such benefits,huh ? By making consessions. Taking smaller if not any pay raises over the years.And whats happening to those benefits now ? To be gone ! And now the board wants them to believe that they will make consessions if they re-negotiate ? Run terachers,run for your lives.Burn me once,but twice ? This board is just STUPID !

But again, this is all an academic argument because americanproducts and fearandrhetoric are busy wrapping up their calls and typing up their responses that prove I have been lying, as they both have both intimated.

Of course, you're presuming that teachers would not retire if not for the retirement benefits. I would contend that everyone retires eventually regardless of how much they are paid to do so. Indeed, if this was a good model, we should be paying teachers even more to retire and businesses all over the country would be following the lead of the Janesville School District. Of course, that's not the case.

More importantly, you have not taken into account quality in instruction. The union has built its entire pay scale around years of service, with the presumption being more experience = better instruction.

By shedding older teachers earlier than you would without the benefits, aren't you paying to get rid of your best teachers? If it indeed makes sense from both a quality and money perspective to pay older teachers to retire, the unions have been foisting a pay scale on taxpayers that is in no way related to the quality of instruction they provide. There's no way the teachers union would do that!

Well, I for one apologize because I misunderstood your $100k assertion and corrected you. So with that number out of way and conceded, the question remains: Is it cheaper for the district to let a teacher earning $60k in salary retire, giving them $17k in insurance and then hiring a new person at $34k plus single insurance at $8k. By my math the district was paying the senior teacher $77k + retirement+ other benefits. Replacement costs are less: New teacher at $42k + retirement + benefits + 17k for old teacher's insurance is $59k plus. A net savings to the district of $18k per retiree. By failing to offer the post-retirement benefits, the expensive employee is more likely to stay on - actually costing the district much more in the long run. So, yes, Janesville could cut post-retirment benefits, but that choice will result in higher overall costs.

Actually, I just confirmed that most teachers get 8 years of retirement, not 6, after cashing in their 130 sick days. So that's 8 years x $17k = $136k per teacher.

But I'm sure American Products and fearandrhetoric were just about to clarify that anyway. Right guys?

You are correct: the benefits are over several years. Of course, for the same reason you don't think $17k over 6 years is that much, don't forget you pay for each teacher for six years. Trust me, there are an average of 6 retirements a year, so whether the payments are made all at once or over 6 years, the effects on our kids' instructional budgets are the same.

But this is all moot since any minute now fear and rhetoric is going to get the JEA to post its contract and American products is going to get the business office to confirm that I am lying about all this.

Noleftist - I think I get your assertion. You say the aggregate cost over 6 or 8 years for each retiree is around $100k. Assuming that the actual cost of insurance is $17k/yr then the cost over the 6 years of paid insurance would, indeed, be over $100k. I think you lose your audience with the claim because it leaves out some very important details. The retiree's benefits are not paid as a lump sum, but over the course of many years. $100k over 6 years is very dramatic. $17k per year is less so. Both are accurate (to the best of my knowledge). Sometimes when you state this fact, it looks like you are claiming $100k of annual benefits for retirees, or that currently employed teachers are getting that $100k (neither of which are true).

One of the main reasons we are in this mess is that recent school boards have not levied the tax that was allowed, I believe because they were trying to get re-elected rather than think ahead to the future. We have this one year to try to "catch up" with a substantial increase; next year that option will not be available. So, DO IT NOW... no more raiding the Fund Balance (which is not a surplus) but will affect future borrowing and cost us more money in the long run. It is time for taxpayers to face the music and bring the tax into some sort of line where it should have been for years now. If that means one less carton of Marlboro's or several six-packs for some, so be it! I am not a teacher and I am living on fixed income, too, but this is the only right thing to do. I expect the bloggers here will have at me,... so be it. I, as well as my kids, had a great education in Janesville and it is now our turn to see that the current crop of kids have the same advantages.

Retirement health insurance payments are not paid from the same funds as health insurance for current employees. And the fact that it's self-funded is irrelevant: payments to the fund come out of school budgets. You either knew both of those facts and didn't tell us, or are ignorant.

Retirement benes total over $100k when you add in accumulated sick days, a boatload of which every teacher retires with. But, to prove me wrong, how about you team up with Mr. Americanproducts and call the JEA (608-931-8561), tell them there's a lying right-wing nut slandering them and their benefits and post their contract! We're waiting for both of you.

That will be happening right about the same time ratings agencies don't incorporate cash on hand in their ratings and when you explain how having more cash on hand doesn't decrease your need to borrow.

Put down the Kool-Aid!

the facts of the matter are the total compensation for health insurance for each teacher are at or aroound 17,000 per employee. Even teachers with masters degree + 10 years experience it takes it to somewhere around 70,000 per instructor BUT also try to remember that the district MAKES MONEY from the Janesville Teachers insurance fund. They are self funded, and that is the reason why there is a 30 million dollar reserve fund for the district to play with.
NoLeftist, if you want to ask questions, why don't you ask why the district has claimed financial weakness, and has 30 million dollars in excess sitting in a checking account. Dont you want to know where it came from? How on Earth can we be in such trouble for so many years and still have a huge reserve fund? Ask questions , demand answers. Dont post a$$umptions and the repetetive rhetoric that is just not true, like your 100K figure. Link it please. No comparing JEA members to the teachers in the MPS that have packages at or near 100k(they should be).

Ask for details about fund 10, ask how it was established and built up. Dont just talk about BS bond ratings as if that has ANYTHING to do with this discussion.

The phone number is (608) 743-5021. Ask for the Business Manager. The actual mechanics are based on years of coverage after retirement and the cost per year.

Be sure to report back to everyone how I'm a liar. Can't wait.

As you can imagine, the union does not permit the posting of its contract online. You can certainly call the district offices and verify however.

As to your contention that any funds spent by the district could be "instructional". That is not true. Many funds are restricted to particular uses. For example, capital funds, such as those spent to build buildings, may not be put towards instructional use.

Any more questions grasshopper?

leftist,
"""Meanwhile, the teachers still get their $100k+ health retirement packages paid out of instructional funds and """
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You continue to make this claim. Please provide and active link to your claim.
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I believe teachers receive a salary and benefit package that includes some benefits during retirement. Not sure about $100k.
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BTW, isn't your "instructional funds" claim obvious...any funds spent by the district could be "instructional". Isn't it instructional to offer teachers a competitive salary AND benefit package?
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Provide a link OR a new LIE

Until this Board recognizes and understand this reality...
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http://www.wisconsinsfuture.org/publicat...
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The reality that lower taxes combined with lower property values (sound familiar) reduces the per pupil allowance from the state.
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This isn't the teachers fault, it isn't the boards fault, not administration and not Gov. Walker.
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It is, however, reality and this board cannot continue to ignore that reality. They must raise taxes because of the formula dictated by the state.
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A deal is a deal. Time to pony up the $55
Janesville taxpayers. I am a Janesville property tax payer.

For all you lefties out there: Fund 10 is figured into bond ratings, which affects the interest you pay on debt as well as how much you have to borrow. So either you can take the Obama route, spend everything you have and more and get a downgrade, or you can be responsible.

Meanwhile, the teachers still get their $100k+ health retirement packages paid out of instructional funds and point their fingers at board members (who make maybe $20 per meeting) for having a cavalier attitude about the good of "the kids."

You have no shame!

So Sode is telling the teachers that they will have to pay back the Fund 10! WTF? Parr said it so perfectly, "We all know the district is in trouble....but it didn't have to be" exactly Parr, you are exactly correct. Due to the boards incompetence this whole fiasco could have been avoided. The public needs to know that the board caused this mess. And now Sode and his cronies are trying to shift blame. Again why can't Sodapop come on the blog and explain the Fund 10 balance? Why is it that when anyone asks about it the board seems to shrink back into their chairs? Gotta protect that cash cow right? Don't want the public to know the real details of the Fund 10 balance? What are you trying to hide? And all of a sudden you find 1-3 million more left over? Pennington, what are you doing with the finances? Seems like you are subtracting when you should be adding.....I can't believe that Janesville voted Sodemann/Severson/Stottler stooges in. Larry, Mo and Curley you three claim you have the children's best interests at heart, then quit you whining, quit worrying about what people are saying on blogs, quit having a mental breakdown on JATV and step up and do your job. You screwed up too many times! Do you jobm quit making it the Sodemann/Stottler/Severson/Jerry Springer show and do what is right for the kids. Raise taxes, use Fund 10, then quit! Then maybe the public will elect a new board president, possibly a teacher that was forced into retirement because of the mismanagement of the board? Then we would actually have a president that has the children's intrest at heart. Keep your heads up teachers, contrary to what you read and hear nowadays, you are not the problem, you have been the scapegoats. Keep teaching, keep doing what you love and please don't give up on kids in Janesville! Don't be pawns for the board, don't be pawns for Governor Walker, just keep your heads up and some of us around here actually appreciate all that you do for our kids!

Janesville teachers - you are doing what you have to do for your families. You give so much to the students of Janesville, thank you for all that you do and have a wonderful school year! I'm sorry that the Gazette, Gazette blogs, and (some of the) School Board are so unsupportive and just don't get it. BTW apparently it's okay for the School Board President to make public threats? Seriously? Thank you Kevin Murray for standing up for the heart of education... educators.

Call it what you will - teachers have no obligation to "give back" what they fairly earned in negotiations. The school board didn't have the guts to stand their ground and invite arbitration - and now they blame the union....Chickens.

Why on Earth should the teachers have to "pay back" the reserve fund? The reason it is even there is because of the savings the district has enjoyed on their insurance over the years!
What I find HILARIOUS is why does no one ask the question, "How did we accumulate a 25-30 million dollar surplus in reserve if the district is in such dire straits?" What a bunch of arrogant people in charge, I am also very disappointed by Schulte making any comments on this situation, she should be worried about what is, not what you are trying to take from teachers.
BTW, to be fair there is no 3 million dollar surplus, its more like a million, after you "repay" the 2.2 million that had been planned to be used from the fund 10 balance. I would like Soda or any other board member to discuss the fund 10 balance, not just what it is, but EXACTLY how it came to be, can they, will they? Or will we keep using cherry picked "projections that always seem to be farther off every single year.
I would also encourage EVERY single customer of Phones Plus to ask for the renegotiation of any contract they have signed with him. Since it is Bill's belief that contracts are open to negotiation in times of "percieved" financial peril, then I would encourage every customer that has business with him to declare financial trouble and ask for a renegotiation.
Does anyone buy that there is a 9 million dollar budget hole next year? Do they have 1st graders projecting the budget each year? All I know is that I would suspect this is a move to hand out more pink slips next year in the hopes of teachers relocating elsewhere. Then first year educators can be hired in at rock bottom prices. My guess is that "Doctor" Schulte will be sending more layoff notices out the day before spring break again, at least this year the teachers can expect a cowardly move like this.
These people knew good and well all summer that this would be the result, yet they still ran to the gazette or TV stations whenever they could to try to gain a PR advantage. Last year there was a 740-0 vote, I would say that is a pretty resounding answer and quite democratic, wouldn't you Bill? To have another full vote would be a waste of everyones time, kind of like this discussion. What did you tink you might have picked up 10 votes? Doubtful, but what difference would it have made? you are going to take all you can in 2013, why in the world should they give it up now? When the board has not been raising taxes iuncrementally over the years as they should have. We as citizens are UNDER taxed right now, no matter what kind of gobbldy gok rhetoric you hear.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxe...

Shame on the JEA. This just proves that Gov. Walker was right.

And if you don't believe me, please read and re-read carefully Thinkfuture's http://gazettextra.com/news/2010/may/16/.... Then answer why this individual believes he is more important than the group.

Honor: The JEA would have walked away with nothing. This was not an opportunity to negotiate. This was for concessions only. Some of us in the JEA fear that we will pay dearly at the end of our contract no matter what concessions we would have given. We would have walked away with nothing in the "trade", and there is very little chance of establishing "good relations" with our current board president and his repeated anti-teacher sentiments. As someone else blogged, it infuriates me that I have to listen to his pep rally speech at school and then read his anti-teacher and anti-education comments in the media.

The JEA knows exactly where Bill and DuWayne want to take the district. Stripped of time to prepare, larger classes, unlimited meetings, meetings for the sake of announcing the next meeting, not to mention salavating at the chance to strip any compensation they can. The last sentence needs to be emphasized. The so-called crises turned into a small surplus yet nobody has been called back. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. This has never been more true with this school board.

I am not surprized by the JEA refusing to reopen their contact, but I do think they will ultimately pay dearly for it. To walk away with something in the trade and to open the door to good relations should be worth something in future talks, but I guess the JEA would rather take their chances. Hope they know what they are doing, but I suspect they do not.

I just found these prophetic posts from an incredibly astute blogger two years ago when Sodemann was elected board president. This blogger was spot on.
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"Despite some individuals' personal affection for Commissioner Sodemann, the political reality is that he is seen as an antagonist by many teachers and parents. The very fact that such an article is written shows that many question his ability to lead in a collaborative way. More than ever our school community needs community. Severson is correct to question whether Sodemann can put aside his cavalier attitude for the greater good--our kids. I recognize that Sodemann has worth and a role on our board--but I respectfully don't believe he’s capable of non-competitive leadership."
http://gazettextra.com/news/2010/may/16/...
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"PLEASE,PLEASE--NO Bill Sodemann as board president. Our community cannot take a year of competitive-minded, antagonistic leadership when collaboration is desperately needed. Times are tough, don't make them tougher.We need fresh leadership to bring everyone together. Hopefully our new board members will step up."
http://gazettextra.com/news/2010/apr/24/...

It appears that the comments have been reset since last night, how convenient. Don't like what's being said, hit the reset or disable the comments, and I thought there wasn't suppose to be censorship.... What a joke!

Gazette,

This story has been up too long. It's a negative discussion out here, and you shouldn't leave this one up for any longer than you have to. Please.

The JEA did the right thing. The haters will still hate and the people that respect the job you do will still respect the job you do.

I can not believe the bullying tactics of Sodemann and some of the higher ups in the district, it is very very sad. Even 1st graders knows that it is wrong to bully and threaten others to get your way. I can't believe anyone still wants to work in the district!!

So the district is in dire financial straits? When has the school district NOT had financial problems? You (school board) have been telling us that the sky is falling for years. The teachers union have told you they aren't doing anything until July 1, 2013. So...show us that the sky really is falling. It's time to put your money where your mouth is, and start producing results. In other words, your time is up: Start laying off. Start cutting programs. Start closing schools. Start privatizing services. Start slashing and burning. To the victor goes the spoils. Sodemann, you've been playing the game long enough, so get up there and make your team proud. Lead from the front Bill, not from behind Karen. If you can't do it - then step aside and let someone else do it. It is time to put up or shut up. Teachers union - stand your ground. I've got a feeling that the only thing that will happen is that taxes will go up. The taxpayer will be ticked off, but you've got one thing in your favor: taxpayers have a short memory. However, keep this in mind, if you think it is bad now, wait until July 1, 2013. Remember: To the victor goes the spoils.

Shady! Mr Sodemann and jsd administration are difficult to trust. one day, we are facing a major shortfall. next day, they find $3 million. which is it? I wouldn't agree to open the contract if I were the JEA either. Teachers are probably the most important people in our children's future (other than parents) yet are probably the most under-appreciated!

Mr. Sodemann--instead of continually slinging mud at teachers, why don't you concentrate on removing that plank from your eye?
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You praise teachers at the kickoff meeting and then bash their actions later in the paper. You want union concessions, but blindly support Walker's union-busting initiatives. You talk of a collective solution (with union concessions), but are against collective bargaining. You are discouraged the union did not have a general membership vote (again), yet did not consult JEA membership (nor your own board members) when you team up with Rep. Knilans to create the concessions legislation. You despise unions, but expect them to work with you.
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You must be blinded by that plank.

Bill,
You said, "Perhaps the board will have to go deeper into benefits when it can in 2013 (after the contract expires) to pay back the fund balance," This is the same crap that you have been using all summer to pressure the teachers into opening the contract. Bash, degrade and sway public opinion of them in the paper and on the radio and then expect them to help you out of "your" financial mishandling of the district. You will never learn. I see you are following in walkers footsteps. Oh by the way, your video was nice at the staff meeting the other day but don't think people believe that you actually value them.

Wisconsin Taxpayers Strike Back Against WEAC Union
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suf_QvbUQ...

"2013 is going to honestly be the more daunting year with more layoffs, more taxes and more money siphoned from the reserves, Sodemann said." Scare tactics, anyone? Perhaps with a side of melodrama?

"...so they can do as they wish" - I am sure some board members can not wait to inflict punitive measures with little concern to chasing away excellent teachers and not attracting quality candidates. According to many, the number of applicants for teaching jobs in Janesville was MUCH lower this year than applications recieved in many, many other districts.

Good for you, teachers. I think Parr's last statement said a lot. What did the Board decide to do with that $3 million they found? Teacher welfare is last on their list.