On the concealed carry issue, just to make it clear I'm pretty sure Jim Humphrey had more than enough training to handle a firearm he did serve our country after all he was trained by the best to handle firearms. And in my opinion criminals are gonna carry firearms regardless of the laws put in place, but allowing law abiding citizens to carry puts everyone else on an even playing ground with the criminals.

The 2nd amendment rights have nothing to do with hunting or sports. But to allow citizens to defend themselves from those who abuse authority. Im not worried about my neighbor possibly having a firearm, being pissed and misusing it. The real threat, and history has shown us time and time again, comes from the military/police forces.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/stat...
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The Fiction of Republican "voter fraud".

And apparently you missed my sarcasm... you conservatives are usually the first to complain about hidden taxes.

"Besides that, isn't tax payer money to pay for voter IDs still a tax?"

BunBun your snarky comments about economic hardship are not amusing. I am lucky to live in a town where the DMV is open 5 days/wk, but the average wait time is an hour and they are not open before 8 or after 5. But the polls are open from 7am until 8 pm, so I can go before or after work. My parents live in a rural area, and their DMV is only open a couple of days per month and they have to travel 45 minutes to get there. Their neighbor is disabled and no longer able to drive. So yes, it will be an economic hardship for some people to get a voter ID, and not so much for others. I think a lawyer could make that case with his eyes shut.

BunBun - I should have clarified between owning a gun and concealed carry. However, you are not required to present ID to OWN a gun, only to purchase one. I own three guns but have never bought one. Yet I vote in every election. But now the state wants to register me in a special database before I can vote. My point is that this is a conservative double-standard. See below.

From JG: Rep. Evan Wynn, R-Whitewater:
Wynn is a former U.S. Army paratrooper who characterizes himself as “very conservative” on constitutional issues. He’s cosponsoring Sen. Pam Galloway’s “constitutional carry” bill, which would allow concealed carry without fees or permits. Wynn said he believes people should be allowed to carry weapons without being registered in police databases and that mandated training and permits for concealed carry would be extraneous and a government overreach. “It makes people jump through so many hoops that they give up and don’t get a permit,” Wynn said.

"Why should it be harder to vote than to get a gun?" even under these rules, it still is easier to vote than get a gun....and when you get a gun they still ask for a photo ID.
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"The time and effort to get an approved ID could represent an economic hardship for some people, and therefore could be construed as a poll tax."
since it takes time and effort to vote in the first place (time off work etc.) we could argue that the state should send people to every individual to collect their vote...Hmmm, might be a good idea. then at least they would be able to purge the fake addresses from the rolls at the same time...:p
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Besides that, isn't tax payer money to pay for voter IDs still a tax?"
Yes it would result in spending tax money..but that is not the same as a poll tax- that is a tax collected specificaly from an individual for the purpose of voting.

From the US Constitution

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
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The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
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My first question is: Why should it be harder to vote than to get a gun? The Constitution clearly states that we have the right to do both, but does not say we must have ID for either. We do have current laws that curtail both, but if you are a strict constitutionalist you can't have it both ways.

Secondly, I think the poll tax argument might work. The time and effort to get an approved ID could represent an economic hardship for some people, and therefore could be construed as a poll tax. Besides that, isn't tax payer money to pay for voter IDs still a tax?

"Then the rules change to fit their own interests." yep, this surely NEVER happens when dems hold power......but if it did, I'm sure you would be ok with it.

"Not sure how Gram's made it into this discussion".
guess when you were so busy reading the bill you neglected to read other posts that referred to grandma being oppressed by the racist, fascist paranoid reactionaries.
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"Bun...I read the bill more thoroughly than you read my post...I repeat, "Voter IDs will have to be offered free of charge."
Since the bill you thoroughly read offers ID free of charge to those who don't have one you will be agreeing that it is not a poll tax and now you have no problem with it. Good to know

you may read an insinuation in my post Hols, but your post was an outright declaration that those you disagree with are racist, Fascists and paranoid reactionaries. I've seen your tactic on many a message board (and here as well) - make a statement and at the same time call any group who might disagree a name that is distasteful enough that people let your initial comment slide in order to deny the label. You believe you "win" when responses don't argue the initial point but concentrate on YOUR name calling so you can pretend the point was conceded. You tried to pull some kind of "Don't question my patriotism" crap by claiming to be a vet. Glad you served but it won't get you a pass when you call folks Racist, Fascist and paranoid reactionaries all in one post.

Vigilandy- thanks for the correction on the Rocky movie number. Its been a while since I forced myself to watch any of them.

"SHOW ME THE STATISTICS THAT SUPPORT THE MOST STUPID STATEMENT EVER POSTED ON THIS WEBSITE!"
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A survey of imprisoned felons conducted by Professors James D. Wright and Peter H. Rossi commissioned by the US Government.
interviews with 1,874 imprisoned felons conducted between August, 1982, and January, 1983
(I’m sure there are some who will claim this is too far out of date, but there has not been a newer study)
Fifty-six percent of the felons surveyed agreed that "A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun;" 74% agreed that "One reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot."
57% majority agreed that "Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."
40% said there was at least one time when the criminal "decided not to do a crime because [he] knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun."

SarahB1: It's different when the cons. can get their hands on things. Then the rules change to fit their own interests.

frogger
"Really smart people cannot always spell well!! Do some research."
Oh...ok then.. i guess i did not realize that YOU were "really smart" sooo, I guess you can go on spelling wrong all over this page..

How would the state prove that you are indigent and qualify for the "free" ID without greatly increasing DMV service center hours and hiring more people thereby exponentially increasing bureaucracy, to ensure that an undue burden is not placed on the citizen? Either everyone get a license/ID for free, or it's a poll tax. Interesting to see how the conservatives stoop to name calling when they get pushed in a corner.
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How does Voter ID, and concealed carry help the economy? It doesn't. It's only the conserva-baggers playing in the sandbox and making a mess of things that the adults will have to come clean up later.

Mooshoe--You're a bitter little thing, aren't you? It seems you're also a complete idiot as well:) How would the state government providing the means(state ID) to vote at no cost to the voter constitute a "poll tax"? It's doubtful that you can top the stupidity displayed in your justification used against conceal carry, but you just might surprise me!

Since fake IDs work for drinking....will they work for voting?

Here we are with a state budget deficit, creeping unemployment, an aging population, unaffordable health care, skyrocketing gasoline prices and price inflation... and Wisconsin republicans priorities are making sure alcohol is available before 9 AM, a voter ID solution to a problem that doesn't exist, legalize concealed hand guns, eliminate recycling, strip union collective bargaining rights, deregulate water pollution standards, expand school vouchers and cut SeniorCare and BadgerCare just to name a few. Do these guys suck or what??

For commentors below that can't understand why paying for a state ID would be considered a poll tax; I didn't make that up, quote below is from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, dated 1/12/11, and I'm sure they didn't make that up either. But glad we can pay for this, since the state is "broke". (Blah, blah, blah.)

"Voters would be able to get free identification cards from the state, but they would still have to pay for driver's licenses. Free IDs are included in the bill to avoid court challenges that would call the ID requirement a poll tax."

BunBun: It was Rocky IV not Rocky V. Geez!!! So now when criminals want to mug people who MIGHT be armed, they shoot first before the other person can draw instead of saying, "Stick'em up!" Can't wait for the showdowns at noon! REGULATORS...mount up!

The idea that without a special photo ID can prevent one person from exercising their right to vote should offend everyone and no one on this board has made a reasonable argument to support voter ID yet.

You liberals are living in a fantasy world if you truly believe voter ID is a bad idea. It would protect the integrity of our elections, a foundation of our democratic process. Would it take some effort to get an ID? Maybe for a FEW who don't already have one - clearly that would be a VERY small percentage.
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There are many examples where the majority have to make an extra effort in order to accommodate the minority. Here, the minority of people who want to vote who don't already have an ID can make the effort. The cost to the state to prove ID's to those who can't afford one will be minimal in light of what's at stake. This is common sense (supported by over 60% in the latest polls) and no one on this board has made a reasonable argument against voter ID yet.

I would like to thank holbachsnature for their thoughtful and historically accurate comments with a side order of snide. Well done, well done. Checkmate.

Ok ok ok large parts of my last post were indeed snide, if not outright sardonic:)

I find it amazing that Walker will pay for voter ID by raiding their beloved "hands off" transportation fund and that this bill ends straight party-line ballots. You can read the list of Democratic amendments on the ID bill that were rejected by republicans here. Amazing assault on our most cherished freedom.
http://dane101.com/current/2011/05/13/a_...

Bun...I read the bill more thoroughly than you read my post...I repeat, "Voter IDs will have to be offered free of charge."

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The comments regarding my service were not snide...merely an informative attempt to explain that I have no affinity for communism as insinuated by your refernce to my "neo-communist" agenda. You are obviously much more courageous and patriotic than I for having served in more dangerous places. I should learn to defer to people with more credibility than myself.

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I didn't mention any differences between the various fascist parties in pre-war Europe. Sorry for clouding the discussion with attempted historical comparisons. Should have known better. Fascists and communists do share certain modes of operation but they are not the same. One of the essential beliefs of fascists is the destruction of communism. Another belief of the fascists (and this is of course antithetical to all things communist) is the encouragement of private industry in part through the supression of trade unions. Fascist governments cooperate with large private businesses, communist governments take them over. Oh damn...I'm just a nitpicking car wreck...I can't stop myself.

...

Neo indeed means new, and is correctly used to define time-period relationships. (i.e "neolithic" means "new stone age," and defines a time period and not necessarliy the descriptive qualities of that period)

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Not sure how Gram's made it into this discussion...but you better be careful...she's a long-time communist, union thug from wayback...as a school teacher she personally destroyed the state's economy and polluted the minds of the young with subverive ideas for over 30 years. My Grams is what's wrong with America...she prolly votes 5 or 6 times in each election herself and then passes out cigarettess to get others to vote for her union puppets.

not a lawyer but it appears that if you apply by mail you would need to send a copy of your ID with your application. If you go to the clerks office you would need to present your ID. It also says (in AB-7 at least) that once a copy is provided, you would not have to do it again next year - provided that you have not moved.

“Many of the gun-law backers keep making reference to the fact that Wisconsin is only one of two states without concealed carry rights. Many of these same people ignore similar thinking regarding voter ID laws: Fewer than 10 states require a photo ID to vote. Hmmmm ...”
So you now support concealed carry? That’s nice. Glad you want to be consistent and go along with the majority.

Not assuming any political leanings holbach, I am commenting on your word choices. Your words (especially calling folks reactionaries) evoke shades of Bridgett Neilsen doing the press conference in Rocky V. You make the assumption that people who want the voting process to have integrity are a mostly a bunch of Fascists who are racially motivated. You can save your snide commentary about spending a couple of years in Germany being a “Neo commie” . I also spent a couple of years in Germany (and a few other places more dangerous) and sure wasn’t practicing old or new forms of Fascism. Neo means new, if you are Fascistic or Communist it all amounts to the same. I don’t care about the piddling differences between Franco’s Fascists or the NSDAP any more than I care about the various Trotskyites, Maoists or Stalinists. I leave that to folks who believe that nitpicking details make them seem more intelligent than the rest. Glad you can make references to poll taxes and lynching but apparently you haven’t read the bill as it provides for ID for those who can’t get one. I love the “my grandma never had an ID” comments, when you people trot out your grandma as an example of folks who will be harmed, all I think is – do you folks hate grandma that much that you won’t help? If I had a relative here who needed an ID to vote and couldn’t get one I would help them. Guess I don’t follow the nuances of the neo compassion of the left.

kidsfirst- Yes she maybe wouldn't get a DL but an ID should be with you.
Lets say she was lost and has demitia(yea yea sp) or something. So when somebody finds her they wont have a clue who this lady is wondering around. SAFETY is all I am talking about as just ONE reason to get an ID. yes fine maybe she didn't grap her purse first before wandering off but lets say she went someplace WITH the purse.
GET AN ID. WHY such an argrument against this??!!

tpaine- No I just need to find spellcheck again.
Really smart people cannot always spell well!! Do some research.
dawn07- How can getting a valid id be a poll tax when you should have one already.
High % of people over 65 need to get to the DMV!!!!!!!
Lets say for example you are in a car accident and the driver died and you need to be identified so the hospital can notify the correct people, find out about your living will if needed, ID you dead bosdy if needed.
I find it odd you can get Soc Sec w/o ID.

Mooshoe........Classic deflection! Your arguments are called out as being completely stupid and nonsensical--and what do you come back with? Name calling..........Another page straight out of the liberal retard handbook........Thanks for the laugh:)

frogger "any responsible adult. . ."
Guess what? My responsible adult mother did not seek a WI driver's license when she moved here from NC. She knew it was time to stop driving. She lived four years in a senior community. Kept abreast of all political activity. Voted by absentee ballot and could debate on most state or national levels why she was voting as she chose -- she voted every spring and fall -- 9 times before passing away. . . Why would she have a picture ID ? Sorry, you are out of touch with reality for our senior population.

frogger: If you go to the state of Wisconsin's Government Accountability Board website, you will find that a study done by UW found that about 180K of Wisconsites over age 65 do NOT have a valid driver's license or state ID. And yes, the state (you) will be paying for that because otherwise it is considered a poll tax which is illegal. Luckily for Rock County residents, we have much better access to DMV's close by and open 5 days/week. That is not the case in many parts of the state north and west of us.

frogger
"responcilble"
I have an idea: a "citizan" should be required to spell correctly to be able to vote!
We need a law!...

Assuming I have some sympathy with communist ideology simply because i disagree with the current agenda of the american right is simplistic yet typical. Spent a couple years in West Germany being a "neo-commuist."

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Sorry you missed my sarcasm on the Arizona/ID reference. Not suprising. Who's gonna get asked for ID in Arizona? John McCain or Sarah Palin? Yeah, prolly not...

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"Neo" is in reference to "our" time versus a time "before ours." Again, I know the whole history thing is very challenging for many people so I won't go into the obvious similarities that exist between early 20th century Italian, Spanish and German Fascism and the current agenda of much of the American right. Much of...but not all by the way

...

Make sure you let that history book dry out completely before you use it to start your next fire...people have suffered, died, been jailed, lynched and terrorized to end restrictions on voting. In no way, shape or form is it legal to force somebody to spend money to make themselves eligible to vote. It's inherently unAmerican...Voter IDs will have to be offered free of charge. You simply can't make dealing with the state DMV a requirment for voting...dust-off and open-up the freakin history books people!!!

"we don't like people who don't look white state."
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that didn't take long. Congrats, you just bumped the nuke argument as the stupidest comment of the day.
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"until you you pass a law making me mentally comply with this neo-fascist agenda, I think I'll stay and see just how far these paranoid reactionaries will go."
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nice runner up, you sound like one of those Soviet citizens from one of those bad 80's movies like Rocky V. Do you write your own dialogue? Hows the Neo-Communist agenda working for you. As an aside, the Neo stuff needs to go - either you are a (insert group here) or not. there is nothing "New" about any of it.

mooshoo- Any responcible adult should have an id if you don't have a drivers lic. If you get hurt it is needed to identify you when you cannot. Many others reasons to have id as well. If you cannot handle $25 and a trip to the DMV you have way bigger problems. As far as the state paying for this as well PLEASE. Give me a break. It is something you should have already gotten as a responcilble citizan.
If I know why neighbor isn't voting what is stopping me from voting twice and just saying I AM Jane DOe??!!

"Good explanation bunbun, under your solution we will settle our arguments with guns on the streets. Welcome to Mexico."
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no, under my solution, criminals are afraid that the next person they try to mug/rape/assault is armed so at least they move into less violent crime. Whereas under your method, the populace scurry from cover to cover like mice or perhaps schedule a session with an arbiter so that the perp only halfway kills them. Or better yet, call 911 and hope all the police can do better than a 45 minute response time - just fast enough to do a really pretty chalk outline.
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more to the point - SHOW ME IN ANY OF THE OTHER 48 STATES WITH CC THE WAVE OF MEXICAN STYLE STREET SHOOTOUTS?

The difference between buying beer or cashing a check and voting is THE CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTION AGAINST RESTRICTIVE VOTING REQUIRMENTS! Private businesses can do any number of things when deciding how, when, or if to do business with you. Not so for the government, especially when it comes to voting rights. The only way to accomplish this without in some way making it restrictive is to supply every person that shows up at polling place with a photo ID, free of charge, right then and right there. Everybody gets exactly the same voter ID card with their picture on it, taken at the polling place, free of charge. Now let's talk about expensive, frustrating and time consuming.

....

The only reason this law will probably not be found unconstitutional, which it most certainly is, is due to the political complexion of both the state and fedral supreme courts.

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Better start gettin used to it folks, we live in the most conservative state in the nation. Most restrictive voter ID law, least restrictive concealed carry law, most limiting collective bargaining law, widest school voucher program.

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If the repubs could some how invent a "real" immigration crisis in our state we could take over arizona's role as the strictest "we don't like people who don't look white state."

...

Now for the simple minded posts telling me to move if I don't like it.....Sorry, until you you pass a law making me mentally comply with this neo-fascist agenda, I think I'll stay and see just how far these paranoid reactionaries will go.

"But we won't worry because when some purist decides to defend themselves with a nuke"
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thanks for giving me a laugh this morning. So if you guys truly feel that Wisconsin is the home to suicidal lunatics, perhaps you should have legislation passed to have every resident commited. If this is your best argument then CC is sure to pass by a large margin.

"Wisconsin residents who are U.S. citizens who may not have a checking account, do not have a doctor to go to, don't buy six packs, who cannot afford to get on an airplane or chose not to, don't have a bank account, don't have a job, or don't hunt"
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Theodore Kaczynski was from Illinois not Wisconsin - He was the only Luddite as you describe that I know of.

Joe Knilans comment in regard to if Mr.Humphrey having training he would not have reacted like he did is ridiculous, in pore taste and down right ignorant! Mr.Humphrey within 6 months prior to committing the murder in fact completed a 8 hr class for Utah conceal and carry by a certified instructor! In addition he had extensive military training. Bad guys will always have guns no matter what laws are passed! All people are asking for is to exercise there constitutional right to defend themselves from people like Mr. Humphrey!

Mooshoe......Protecting the integrity of our elections could hardly be considered a "hardship". As far a this being considered a voter suppression law, I did not realize that the Wisconsin DMVs were refusing service to people. Can you provide a specific example or story where this has happened?
The point you were trying to make against concealed carry using the shooting on Court Street was laughable. The person arrested was illegally carrying the weapon! So your rationalization is that because criminals have broke and will continue to break handgun laws, that law-abiding citizens should not have the right to conceal carry either? Set it up where the only people conceal carrying are the criminals? Great plan there genius!:)

I am required to show my ID when I write a check, go to the doctor, buy a six-pack, get on an airplane, open a bank account, apply for a job, or get a hunting license. Tell me again, why is it a "hardship" to show it when I vote? The only people who will actually be "disenfranchised" are those who would try to vote improperly.

The Constitution does not contain any language or definitions about concealment, ranges or arms. But we won't worry because when some purist decides to defend themselves with a nuke, Bunbun will soothe our disillusionment and anger by calling the perpetrator an evil coward - that is if Bubun is lucky enough to still be around.

Sounds like a great idea to me...
I LIKE to get up around 6am guzzle down a sixer,then play with my dirty harry gun...
stand in front of the mirror "make my day"
"you talkin to me...you talkin to me?"
Now i'll even be able to "be pakin" legally all over town...seems like a win,win...

"And what catagory would the "peaceful incident" involving a gun fatality on West Court Street in Janesville fall under"
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it falls under "an evil person who was not deterred by laws on the books and a victim who had no means of protecting himself". It also falls under "evil coward felt safe to shoot people he knew were not able to shoot back"
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Youkillme - you are free to use whatever means you feel necessary to protect yourself including wetting yourself and groveling on the ground. Besides, nukes are too hard to conceal and most ranges frown on attempts to practice with them.

Great logic there. I can't wait for everyone to own a nuclear bomb for protection. After all, bombs don't kill people - people do.

Forty-eight other States have concealed carry laws and have no problems because of it. Why are ILLinois and Wisconsin so far behind on this.All the proof and facts show that when all those States changed, their State became safer. Bad people will always carry, why prevent good people the right to defend themselves? Many people have been saved by citizens who were carrying concealed weapons.

In these dangerous times, one has to protect themselves. The police can't protect you, ,they show up after your dead.

republicans have no hands? I can't find any kind of Papal bull regarding the Republican party so apparently the church has not taken a position but I do read quite a bit of bull on these opinion pages.
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"That is how so many people get killed especially in bars after an argument."
sorry, can't find any numbers supporting your opinion. The numbers that I find look more like peaceful unarmed drunks driving to another bar or home killing people with their cars.

Thanks...."ImJustSayin" for the video.

I'm wondering if these are the types of folks Representative Wynn "listened" to, that forced him to propose his early morning "6am" Liquor Sales Bill.

I heard nothing in Mr. Wynn's response, that justifies selling alcohol two hours earlier in the morning.

Is this the BEST legislation that Wynn can come up with for "his" constituents?

THIS IS BAD LEGISLATION....not only for our 43rd district, but Wisconsin as well!

I beleive in a voter I.D. photo. What do we have to be ashamed of. We ask Mexican to show proof so why shouldn't we.
As far as carrying concealed weapons I don't believe anyone needs to conceal a weapon. That is how so many people get killed especially in bars after an argument.

The Republicans are so dirty and unhanded. They must be so afraid of the summer recall elections that they will, once again, try to railroad something through. Their protetion of the wealthy is wearing thin. I hear the Catholic church is now upset with the Republicans!!!

He doesn't just like to be, he is Walker's tool.

Joe Knilians likes to be Walker's "tool".

I wonder how many 3rd shift workers in Winn's district have mentioned this to him.
Is he saying it's better to carry alcohol in your vehicle, rather than purchase it at your point of destination?
Personally, I don't think restricting the hours you can purchase alcohol has any positive effect.
If anything it would be negative. An irritated, hung-over alcoholic is more dangerous than one with a couple drinks in him/her.
This is what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1D74hrOw...

Maybe we should all get chips imbedded when we are born.