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Teachers are neither over paid or under compensated. On the other hand, our elected officials are over compensated in salary and pensions. The U.S. senators alone are a majority of millionaires. Why do they deserve a pension? What happened over the last 14 years has been a disservice to the american people. They are not doing what we need but, what they want, period.

Gandalf

Where did you get the impression that Rick Ungar is a conservative?

"On Saturdays, you can find me on your TV arguing with my more conservative colleagues on "Forbes on Fox" on the Fox News Network and serving as a liberal talking head on other Fox News and Fox Business Network shows."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/20...

"even following these reforms, Wisconsin workers are far from underpaid. In a recent research paper published by the American Enterprise Institute, we showed that Wisconsin state employees today receive total wages and benefits around 20% higher than private sector workers with similar levels of education and experience. Many local government employees in Wisconsin do even better."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/walki...

Pigs get fed; hogs get slaughtered. The public sector was already grossly overpaid prior to the onset of the Great Recession in 2008. If the the public sector had at least opted for a pay freeze and not increased property taxes as of 2008, then they would not have brought the wrath of the taxpayer on themselves. Because of their totally out of control greed, including the recall spectacle and associated waste of taxpayer dollars that they caused, public workers are now despised all over the nation.

My hubby has been a public employee for over 13 yrs. He makes less than $12 per hour so not all of them are big bucks like Walker wants you non public employees assume. He works blue collar and he works darn hard every day.He is overworked and underpaid as they don't think they have to replace those who leave..just make him do the work of 3. He has to work so hard he can't even take the time for his breaks or lunch or he can't finish all he is expected to do. He has earned every single dime of his pension. To be able to finally retire in 2 yrs, and have to watch Walker and his pocket pals try to attatch to HIS (yes HIS) pension is unfair. Would you like it if you worked your kiester off for 13 yrs just to have your pension attacked and possibly "stolen?" 401Ks aren't going to do us any good. We don't have time for it to build up now. And for Walker to let his rich wallets on Wall St gamble with it on the stock market is insane. His wage does not condone a decent livable soc sec benefit. We also need HIS pension to live on.Without it we could lose all we have worked for all these years. Public employees are not rich, do not get freebies; they have worked hard for everything and are not any different than you unless you are that top %. You are forgetting about the fact some public workers are small time blue collars too...not CEO's!

"You are aware that the vast majority of taxpayers whose taxes fund the pensions of the public employees..."
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Apparently 916 can't read or comprehend. That seems to be the case with many of those opposing public unions. It's CLEARLY stated in the article that by a unanimous Wisconsin Supreme Court decision: “The system of benefits provided by WRS is no mere legislative gratuity. Rather, benefits are a form of deferred compensation for service provided."
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916 should take his own advice - if he doesn't understand the simple concept of how the pensions are funded with the public employees own money, then he shouldn't be posting comments.

Gandy -- I would be all for a pension -- if and only if -- the employee would only be allowed to collect against their own investment amount plus interest. When an employee collects 2-5 times what they put in as an amount and that is in excess of the investment plus a reasonable inflation index as interest, then sorry... they only get what was invested. Nothing more. No indexes for inflation on payouts -- just what you put in plus interest. Otherwise -- they should be taxed at 50% on anything over their investment or not be allowed to collect at all beyond that amount.

one heart attack will wipe out a 401k plan---then what do you do?

LRB 3202 is a draft bill put forth be Patricia Strachota (R West Bend) which would create an optional plan for all newly-hired employees of the UW System. The plan would bar those new workers from joining the WRS.
Yea... Nothing to see here folks, move along, move along now....

Back on topic -- WRS pensions are fully funded. Walker is not fully forthcoming in saying that future changes to the ETF. If the base amount of the funds invested, earning interest, is decreased, then the amounts available are likewise decreased. But why confuse facts with the spin?

Gandalf........You're a crack up! How did I know that your "conservative calling out of Walker" would be a link to an Ungar article. Take a look at some of his other "work" including that which doesn't involve WI, and try to tell us with a straight face that the guy is a "conservative"........Seriously now:)

Older- Thanks for dumping the partisan stuff and stating what is true. Teachers are NOT overpaid.
ezoner- your hate for people organizing in their own defense against corrupt ownership in many cases blinds every argument you make. Too bad that you have become so predictable.

Motorman
I don't hear many teachers bashing roofers. Maybe due to the roofers putting a new roof on the teachers home while they are picketing.

Gandy -- did you see the attendees...... UNions, unions, and more unions..... I will take my 401k any day over a pension that can disappear if the company goes under. I know people that had pensions in the 1980's and most of those plans were not and still are not required to be 100% funded, got 15-25cents on the dollar when the company went under.... they only for sure ones are public -- oops -- now the government may go under.....

Teacher total compensation is around $70,000 per year in this area. Disbursement of that total depends on tenure. (More in wages, less contributed to benefits as tenure increases). How is that overpaid?

just fyi in Janesville family health care costs the district 17000 per employee. So the actual number is a little closer to 29000 total. Again 916 I would love a link to your numerical information. You keep stating a number, I just would like to know your source, I'll wait thanks.

916 - those are YOUR numbers, not mine. Why don't you break them down? I can do some simple math...(numbers rounded for the example)

Base - $63k
FICA/Medicare $5040
WRS (assuming full contribution pre-act 10) - $7308
Medical/Dental/other insurance (also pre-Act 10) - $20,000

That brings us to $32k pretty quickly, not sure where you are getting the other $10k. ( I have some guesses, but I don't want my posts deleted.....)

Everyone CHOOSES what they want to do and gets compensated according to the many factors associated with that choice.

All you who say teachers have it so "hard" and you "could never do, bla bla bla"
puhleeeeze, just knock it off, EVERY job is HARD in its own way.
How about roofers on roofs in 90 degree direct sun all day or below zero wind chills....etc....etc...
Goodness sake, just knock it off, you sound so ridiculous.

Let's give our representatives the same exact pension plan and maybe just a little more in pay than the average worker. No collective bargaining rights, no more making their own decisions on their wages, perks, benefits and healthcare. We should be cutting down on this HUGE expense. Our representatives are NOT the entitled and should not be treated as so. Any laws that are passed by them (which should be voted on by US) should apply to them also.

Stubbs.....Then educate me. The $42,030 in "fringe" on top of the $63,245 that this person collects for 9 months of employment. Please break out what percentage is allocated where when looking at that $42,030. This should be interesting.......

Oh my, looks like 916WI "Stubby'ed" their toe and fell in the "liverpool." Hope it's heated! Best keep your mouth closed until you're out of deep water and your "fear" has subsided, 916WI.

Looks like I was pointing out 916's ignorance at the same time as stubby.

916- The pension contribution for most public employees is 11.6 percent of their salary of which the employee now pays half. Therefore the employer now contributes 5.8 percent of the employees salary into the pension system not the 66 percent you state. I know some of the AM radio people have told you otherwise, but I have news for you. THEY LIE!

916 - without stooping to baseless accusations, I'll refer you to the ETF web site at http://etf.wi.gov/news/2012_WRS_Contribu... where the contribution rate for general employees (of which teachers are a part) is listed at 11.8% for 2012. Since teachers contribute half from their take-home pay, that means 5.9% is contributed by the employer. Granted, it is more than the 4% match my employer kicks in for my 401k, but it is considerably less than the $30,000 number you seem to be asserting. And again - given the comparatively low salary for other equally responsible and trained employees, the extra 1.9% hardly seems excessive.

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Again- I ask you why, if teaching is so easy and lucrative, you do not go and get your teaching degree?

916 could you please post a link that shows the 30k number each year being put into pension from a teachers salary. I would be very interested to read that.
I of course think that Teachers are worth far more than what they are paid. I also think if you raise the pay and keep the benefits you could even raise expectations which may make it even easier to get rid of poor teachers. I also think you could find a path to rid yourselves of the evil teachers unions if young teachers made a wage that allowed them to be able to afford a one bedroom apt and a car payment , to go along with 50k+ in student loans.
Lets make the profession MORE attractive not less.
916- Are you required to constantly take classes to continue to do your job at 200-500 dollars a credit??

Stubbs.......Seriously? You are skewing the numbers by not including "deferred compensation" as part of either salary or pension contributions. You are going to try to put up an argument that $42,000 in "fringe" is comparable to what is available in the private sector? Pull the amount spent on HC out of it($10 to $12,000) That leaves you with $30,000 in deferred compensation(pension contribution). You honestly thing that a 2 or 3% employer match on a 401K program would even come remotely close to that. You must be doing some amazing drugs!

916 - You mean to tell me that private employers don't offer "fringe" like, say, Employer FICA and medicare (included for your teachers and required by federal law), health insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, 401k matching, profit sharing, etc..? Please - while I'm sure you can find a few that scrape by "bare bones", most decent employers offer reasonable benefit packages that include most or all of the above, or more. (If yours does not, look for a new job!) You are intentionally skewing the numbers by comparing wages only to total compensation, and that is not honest.

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From what I understand of teacher salary structure, a 16 year veteran teacher (assuming age 39 and spent entire career in Beloit) should be at or near top pay. And again, I'd assert that, given the required preparation, training, experience and responsibility of the position, that a salary in the low $60's is hardly unreasonable.

Despite what some say, Teachers are very highly trained professionals who do jobs that few others could handle. I couldn't last 30 minutes in a 3rd grade classroom, let alone day after day dealing with all the thing that teachers deal with as a matter of course. If you want the "luxurious" life of a teacher, then go get your degree and get the job, and do it for $35k/year with no benefits as you propose.

"AFSCME Council 24, one of the largest state employee unions, says: “(WRS) is one of only four state pension systems that meets the strict actuarial definition of being fully funded. In AFSCME’s view, there is no need to ‘study’ the WRS or modify a pension system that works well and provides a modest pension for a career of service."

Of course AFSCME doen't want a study performed. They are making money the way things are and don't want any changes. However, NO PLAN is "perfect". There is ALWAYS room for improvement. A study is a great idea if benefits can be maintained while reducing the cost to taxpayers.

Stubbs........As far as your other comment...I seriously doubt that a 39 year old woman teaching 3rd grade is the highest paid teacher in Beloit. The unions have done a wonderful job in getting the public to buy into the whole "struggling teacher" story........

Stubbs......That's exactly my point! You want to compare the $45K to the $35K while making absolutely no mention of the "fringe"--"deferred compensation", pension contribution" whatever you wish to label it-- typically 2/3 of the wages and completely unheard of in the private sector. You people don't want to include it as a pension contribution and also choose to conveniently forget about it when discussing salary/wages. Thanks for helping me make the point:)

I have always been told that 401k's are a good thing.
"Yeah investa,401K plans are just like going to Vegas, or to Ho-Chunk for cheeseheads. The House always wins. And guess who the House is in this one...Beautiful."

But now they are a gamble?

And this
"401k plans and now all those fees increase, and the private investment firms (ie "big boys") rake in millions of $ in fees for basically no extra work."

So these guys are robbing me by telling me to invest in 401k?

And this:
"To convert it into a 401k-type program would be horrible for all concerned."

Basically, you are saying that 401k programs are bad for the general public? Is this true?

I really need to understand this, because a 401k is really the only option I have, unlike a public service worker, in which I also help to cover his/her retirement. How many public service workers are helping me out with my 401k?

"It's called deductive reasoning"
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LOL, that explains much of your false assumptions.

916 - I'm glad you know the teacher in Beloit who is probably making the highest salary. You cannot compare, however, the "total compensation" for that teacher with the "average salary (not including benefits)" for Beloit. Not apples-apples. Also not "apples to apples" is the fact that you are comparing a specific individual to an average. Average salary for a Beloit teacher is around $45k. Now you can compare the 45k to the 35k, and considering the education required for the job and the responsibilities involved (and the fact that, on average, teachers work the same number of hours as other salaried professional), I think the $10k difference is probably far too low.

Ezoner- "If the taxpayer and private workers are paying more for a service or product than the value of the product or service is worth in the marketplace, then you have an instance where the compensation whether deferred, or a benefit, is viewed as excessive."

The fact of the matter is that you made no specific intances where the state worker is being compensated in a matter that highly outweighs the same people in the private sector. I however will give you a specific instance. I have an IT background and I will tell you that anyone interested in working as a network engineer, a database engineer, etc... anyone knows you can make far more money in the private sector.

Gandalf......I understand how the pensions are funded, it's just comical that the anti-Walker contingent on the site are completely against considering "deferred compensation" as a taxpayer funded pension for public employees--but when we try to include it as a part of public employee wages(and not pension) they cry and whine about that too! Here's an example. A thirty something acquaintance of mine is an elementary teacher in Beloit. According to data mine her salary last year was $63,245 with an additional "fringe" totaling $42,030. That's $105,275 for the 9 month school year. When the HC expense is factored out--figure $10,000 as an example--You would then consider her taxpayer funded salary at $95,275 for the 9 month school year....correct? This in a city where the average HOUSEHOLD income is $35,000 a year........

gandalf stated "what evidence do you have that the emails in question are union-initiated? None, I'm sure. There are plenty of non-union workers who would be affected by Walker's move to 'privatize' the WRS."
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I read one that came from the teachers union. Where is your evidence that walker has a plan/move/want/desire to privatize the WRS? Step up or ....

Fear -- You use words to justify the cost. The reality is, whether its deferred compensation or a benefit, its the same thing from the taxpayers perspective. If the taxpayer and private workers are paying more for a service or product than the value of the product or service is worth in the marketplace, then you have an instance where the compensation whether deferred, or a benefit, is viewed as excessive. I would also state, that up and until the last 3-4 years, 401K plans did on average -- significantly better than most pension plans. The only exception my be in the case of public employees. Public employees need to get with the program.

Union Statistics: What You May Not Know

http://www.laborunionreport.com/portal/2...

Actually, most public workers I know have their pension (about which Fear is absolutely spot-on with his statement about that being deferred compensation for their work - so Scooter's "reforms" were a real cut in pay), but also have a 403(b) (the non-profit version of a 401k) account as well.

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Will it happen? Of course. Walker says he has "no plans" because he really does have no plans - not a single independent thought in that man's head. But when the "commission" recommends the change then he can just "follow the recommendations" and claim it was never his idea. Why? Follow the money. Who profits from the WRS? The workers. Who profits from changing to 403b plans (they couldn't change to 401k's)? The big investment firms. Take that 12 billion and start collecting 1% annual fees (That's $120 million per year of pure profit for the investment firms). Nice kickback for a campaign contribution.

Maybe Politifact says this didnt happen, but I think this is a completely logical step for these people to take , considering what they have already done. That being said any of his delusions will not become reality, because he will no longer hold a super majority if he survives a recall. So any dreams he may have mightr well be for naught as you can expect democrats to block almost every stunt they try to pull in the Senate. Which is unfortunate. Nothing will be accomplished in state government now for years. These people(Walkers puppets in the legislature) picked this fight , so what exactly did they expect??

No 916 those employees earn compensation and invest a part of that compensation for their services in a PENSION. The taxpayers dont "fund their pensiuons" that is an absolute false statement. They pay workers for services, its called compenastion, understand?

Secondly has anyone thought about what happened to their 401k funds when the market crashed? Is that the plan for everyone's retirement now? Trust Wall Street investors not to screw everyone again? How would it feel to be 30+ years into your 401k have over a million in there and lose 60% of it in a week? Is that the level of trust you want to place in our crony Capitalistic markets? My God how quickly some forget!!
I guarantee the Dems will be running ads on this one, this is a losing issue for Scott Walker. As it seems the polls are already swaying away for him. Lets vote him out and send a message to ANY politician that tries radical changes in Wisconsin, "Try it and we will boot you out".
The sooner we can have this election the better.

And the sheep continue to bahhh as directed by false union e-mails declare they should.

Gandalf...Converting to a 401K program would be horrible? You are aware that the vast majority of taxpayers whose taxes fund the pensions of the public employees are dependent on these "horrible programs"..........no?

Chain email says Gov. Scott Walker supports a move to abolish the state retirement system and reduce pensions

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/stat...

mteg, the reason that GM had so many retirees in relation to current workers was that it was becoming a SMALLER COMPANY every year as its sales dropped. At one point GM commanded over 50% of the entire American automotive market. That's a lot of people making cars. Then you end up with a company more recently struggling to reach 20%. All other things being equal (and they weren't), that's a ratio of 2 workers to 5 retirees.
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This is not a good comparison with a state pension system, as the worker numbers remain stable or even increase with population. In the same period (ca. 1950 to 2010) Wisconsin's population has nearly doubled (up 66%). Imagine how well GM (and its pensions) would be doing if it had twice the sales instead of half the sales.

Wisconsin companies should also be weary of supporting politicians who are corporate whores like wanker. There are companies in Wisconsin that have received investment money from the WRS and have also contributed to wankers campaign. If this fund is going to be available to Wisconsin companies in the future they may wish to support candidates that will not drastically change the way the fund is managed.

The WRS is a fully funded $80 billion fund. Roughly $12 billion of the fund is invested in Wisconsin companies. I think there is a real fear that wanker will turn this fund over to private investment firms because he has received large amounts of campaign money from private investment firms. We have already seen what he has done for other contributors. Because of the large amount of money invested in Wisconsin companies every Wisconsin citizen should have some concern about privatizing the management of this fund. I think it should be looked at to make sure taxpayers are not on the hook for fund bailouts in the future, but to change it in any other way would be criminal.

"People live an average 85+years."-mteg @ 12:47pm, 2-28

Actually, you are quite incorrect. The USA average for women is 80.4 years and the average for men is 75.3 years. This of course give an overall average of 77.85 years.

"The reality is that state funded plans such as AfCSME..." -mteg@2-28@12:47pm

"Statistically these plans always end up having more individuals reping benefits that those that come in." -mteg@2-28@12:47pm

AFSCME is not a plan, mteg. It is a union, one of many whose members contribute to the WRS.

There are not "more individuals reping* benefits that those that come in." as you state. The WRS has Around 80 billion dollars in the black, last I heard. This is not a program that has a problem. It does not need a fix from Walker and his corporate handlers or anyone else.

*Actually, the word is reaping, mteg.

Walker would like to get his hands on the pension fund and ruin what is a good thing for public workers. As a teacher my compensation was not high. The pension was a good thing to look forward to after spending 38 years in the classroom. Walker does not see the need to retain good teachers. The change to the collective bargaining will make a teacher who has furthered his education too expensive to keep. Not a surprise from a person who could not finish his college education.

The reality is that state funded plans such as AfCSME have people drawing from their retirement at around 54 years of age (Correcitional Officers, court staff, ETC...) SS doesnt kick in for at least another 10 years. People live an average 85+years. And these plans kick in after 5 full years of service so someone who was a police officer can retire and begin collecting a pension and start working somewhere else only to get a double pension-it happens quite a bit as most people are not ready to stop working at 54 (boredom factor). Statistically these plans always end up having more individuals reping benefits that those that come in. That is GM's biggest downfall. When over 50% of profits go directly to individuals who no longer work for the company. There are really only 3 ways to correct the problem. Hire more workers-Costly, Cut benefits or raise retirement limits-no one wants that, or make those coming into plans pay more-which is like a bandaid on an open cut.

Let's see - a state-run plan is generally funded off of fees charged to participants - just like a 401k - except the state does not "profit" from the plan. Switch to 401k plans and now all those fees increase, and the private investment firms (ie "big boys") rake in millions of $ in fees for basically no extra work. It is all about paying back big contributors by forcing workers into higher cost, "for profit" plans.

I've always been a fan of the 401k, especially the new roth one. I've contributed in at every job that offers them. I like the fact that you have some control over what funds you are investing in, and how agressive you want to be. The simple fact is that when the baby boomers all retire, and the genxr's start ehading into retirement, There will be more going out than coming in-both in private and governmental plans. Those that fail to plan will have a future that is questionable.

Wisconsin's retirement system is one of the State's crown jewels--always one of the most successful systems in the country. Leave it to Walker and Co. to provide another solution in search of a problem.

Another dem scare tactic, like they will take away your social security or medicare unless you vote for us. The only thing more pathetic is the people that believe it.

Keep it coming Walker till there will be only rich and poor and no more middle class. You and those like you are only destroying this country.

A 401(K) is an excellent way to save for retirement. Public employees will benefit greatly from such a plan, depending on the exact details of the plan (vesting, investment choices, matching contribution rate, etc...).

no making "fundamental" changes, is that like the "modest" contributions that equaled 13% of my take home income?

The Walker administration has followed a clear path toward creating rent-seeking opportunities for private business to reap profits off of taxpayer-provided resources. There is no doubt that they look at the state pension fund and think of this as an opportunity for private financial planning firms to do business with the state, siphoning a commission out of something that was doing just fine without them.

This WRS pension fund is very solvent, there are billions of dollars in it. We have this as a part of a deferred compensation of our wages. There is very little doubt in my mind that a lot of what the Walker has done to public employees is engineered to allow Walker and his corporate handlers to get their hands on this money.

This would simply be more looting and theft of the collective wealth of the middle class. As with any criminal group the old saying, "follow the money" applies here.

Whew!!! For a minute there I thought the end of the world was coming !