Threaten the public with what? I don`t believe most public unions can strike.
donnaw, elect the people who best serve your interests. If enough voters would do that you wouldn`t have to complain that your interests are not protected. Public officials on school boards, city councils, county boards, etc, don`t run as Dems or Repubs. If you think only Dems have been involved in public contract negotiations all through the years you are sadly mistaken.

I don't disagree, it happens in the private sector too.

But very rarely do you see an impasse during public sector and government negotiations because these unions usually get what they want otherwise they threaten the public.

pharm..the big difference here is taxpayers are on the hook for meeting the outcome of public union negotiations, which support the Dems, so we are stuck unless we can elect someone who will stand up to the unions and not have a vested interest. In the public sector, if I don't want to buy a GM or a Ford or a Harley or whatever the product I don't have to. I have a choice. And I don't disagree that the employees should back their best interests.

If you don`t think the same thing doesn`t take place in negotiations in private companies you are sadly misinformed. In order to be an elected official, or a boss anywhere, you have to be ready for the flak, or get out.

I agree pharm. But the minute a person in charge of negotiating with public unions contracts disagrees or votes against proposed union demands, the union goes on a witch hunt and paints that person as someone who hates education, hates kids, and does not hold education as a priority in the case of teachers's unions of course.

Public/private, no difference to me as long as things are negotiated, not mandated because you can. If the people you elect negotiate a contract with public employees that you do not like, elect somebody else, don`t blame the employees for doing what is in their best interests.

And in the private sector, not a public union, right?

donnaw, they didn`t have to like it, but it was negotiated by the company and the union representing them, not mandated.

pharm...so the GM retired employees took a $700 year pension cut and didn't go nuts! No OWS demonstrations, storm the corp headquarters and demand the CEO be "recalled"? Beat their drums, etc? My, my.

ezoner, bogus number? The news agency only reported the number, they did not claim it as their own, the Center For Automotive Research did, are they "lefties?" As for the pensions, the PBGC would have been on the hook to pay them from taxpayer money. That is partly why the governments cost estimates of a normal GM bankruptcy were $100 billion at the time. The creditors got their cut, 10% of the company. The UAW was the largest single entity owed by GM at the time, $20 billion. They settled for stock in lieu of $10 billion of that debt.
donnaw, yes Ford was smarter. They mortgaged everything, including their logo, for $25 billion beforehand, took a $5.9 billion government loan to research alternate fuel vehicles, and had $9 billion in TARP money earmarked for them if they had requested it.
916, Ford is using those same kind of tax credits from previous years losses to offset taxes also. Are they guilty of fleecing the taxpayers too? Those credits are only good for a certain number of years, so to say they will cost $13 billion seems to suggest a lot of profit in the future. How do you think two thirds of profitable companies avoided paying taxes all these years? The tax code needs revamping, but the talk about not taxing corporations at all is silly, IMO.
In the recently signed GM/UAW contract, I believe only the new/recently hired, lower wage employees, will get a raise over the 4 years. Part of each employees signing bonus will go to the retirees health fund, and each retiree took a $700 a year pension cut.
By the way, those employees are also taxpayers.

I can not believe anyone would wish GM back to janesville. They screwed every person in this area that worked for them, and you would want them back. That is insane. I personally would never put my cards in the hands of the auto industry, no matter how much money I made. It is too up and down.

If I'm not mistaken Ford didn't take any bailout money. We're they a better run company?

"It's really laughable that conservatives objected to the GM and Chrysler reorganizations. They're OK with giving billions in tax breaks to oil companies EVERY YEAR,"

The oil companies aren't failing though, big difference.

You reward companies, GM the social service company, with tax money for failure? Typical liberal....reward even with disastrous results......with no responsibility.

It's really laughable that conservatives objected to the GM and Chrysler reorganizations. They're OK with giving billions in tax breaks to oil companies EVERY YEAR, yet object to saving two U.S. manufacturing companies. Had this happened in the middle of the first Bush administration, Republicans would have been happy to bail out the companies, and break the unions at the same time.

Ezoner wrote: "GM would have been broken up and sold."

And who would have purchased the GM pieces, during a recession, after auto sales dropped 30%, and when the credit markets were frozen? No one. That's also why they couldn't go through a standard Chapter 11 reorganization. No one but the government could finance continued operations while GM was reorganized.

Of course, I've repeated these facts to you before.

pharm.......Hardly using inaccurate numbers there buddy.
From an article in the WSJ.....
"The $14 billion figure omits the cost of the previously accumulated tax losses GM can apply against future profits, thanks to a special post-bailout government gift. The ordinary rule is that these losses can only be preserved after bankruptcy if the company is restructured—not if it's sold. By waiving this rule, the government saved GM at least $12 billion to $13 billion in future taxes, a large chunk of which (not all, because taxpayers also own GM stock) came straight out of taxpayers' pockets."
As I said, if you want to defend the bailout in terms of preserving American jobs, there is no argument that it did accomplish that. To attempt to market the bailout as a financial success for American taxpayers, there is no possible way to do this. It was a miserable failure in that regard.......

Global? Not US - not until it is out of government hands.

pharm -- That is a bogus number -- escpecially from the left leaning news agency. The reality is -- GM would have been broken up and sold. The only thing saved was the GM union pension plans. Thats it.

Tedlewis

It's unfortunate that the billions we spend in education do not translate into a wise investment for our nation. I know you think education should not be looked at as an expense. Right Mr. Lewis?

CBS Detroit, 11/17/10.
According to the Center For Automotive Research, the bailouts saved 1,454,400 jobs.

Thank you, President Obama, for demonstrating the leadership necessary to preserve GM. Tens (or hundreds?) of thousands of jobs were either directly or indirectly saved because of the wise investment in our auto industry. I only hope that the Janesville plant re-opens as GM's fortunes improve.

donnaw, GM did not say they paid back all the TARP funds, just the loans, which they did. The money to pay the loans was GM`s to use as they saw fit, from the governments funding that acquired almost two thirds of the company stock. $30 billion in losses for the auto bailouts was a projection(actually the projection in 2009 was $40 billion) that has been scaled back to $14 billion, and that is for all the auto bailouts, GM, Chrysler, suppliers, and finance companies.. Independent economists have stated the bailouts saved the government "tens of billions" because of expected unemployment claims and loss of tax revenues.(CNN Money, 7/21/11) The projected losses would have been even less if GM and Chrysler had not paid their loans off early and saved themselves those interest payments.
If you want to "whine" about the expected losses, use the real figures.

I don't think you people realize there is a difference between equity stake and loans. By definition, and any other way you can look at it, it was paid back. Say you take out $25k loan to fix up your house, and deposit the check in the bank. You then realize you have enough money to pay the contractor as you go, in the remodel of the home. You then pay the money back to bank early, paying off the loan. Did you pay off the loan?
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Furthermore, and successful GM provides jobs to people. People who pay taxes, both income and other. GM's vendors make money, paying taxes, as do all of their employees. The money GM received is but a drop of water in a vast ocean of money, most of which is hard to comprehend, as seen by the responses to this article.

why think...now you are harping on the millions paid to corporate execs. A few posts ago you were praising GM for paying back their TARP bailouts (which they didn't). Don't you think GM paid its execs millions too? On our taxpayers dime, I might add. You can't have it both ways. Either you are in favor of the way corps do business or you are not. Your name fits you...why think.

I can't remember the user name for the person.....that's all but it does exist....

I know it has vato. Yet you can't find me one example. Does your search bar not funcion properly??

Its funny that you guys bring up fox more than anyone else..you guys must be frequent watchers of fox....

The crying has been there tthompson.....it isn't about caring about kids for the teachers union....

Donnaw: Stop making stuff up and FIND ME ONE.

Vato: So even if there is that one that donnaw wonte be able to produce, you initially said that

'We get public sector people on here crying as to how they are going to make mortgage payments, car payments, buy groceries etc because they have to pay for insurance and pensions'

and now you are looking for one needle in a haystack that maybe said

'that teachers would lose so much money that it would equal a car or mortgage payment'

Your first statement states they are crying about not being able to pay for those things. Your second states that they will lose an equivalent to amount of one those.

Please tell me you see the difference?? Please tell me that your second statement proves your first statement is nothing more than right wing fox news smoke being blown up anyones fox hole who reads that drivvle. Good day sir. I said good day.

oco
Jan 11, 2012 at 8:19 a.m.
Suggest removal Sarah

" American companies who claim to be patriotic and in love with their fellow citizens but ship their jobs overseas because it feeds their own wallets."

Just remember that thousands of Americans are employed due to other countries buying our products........it is a global economy like it or not.....

If companies didn't have to subsidize all the welfare in this country (and overly paid union wages) with taxes, maybe they would not move......last time I checked there isn't anything illegal about moving a company to another location....if there is let me know..
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What a crap excuse? It isn't the wages or taxes it is the executive MILLION DOLLAR(S) salary and MILLION DOLLAR(S) BONUSES! If these companies would max salaries at $1,000,000 many middle-class union employees (and non-union) employees could be employed again.
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www.americanproductsamericaspride.com
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Fix the problem by making a purchase.

"Yes, manufacturing is dead...because we now have sentient robots building other sentient robots that manufacture things."

Yeah...it's called the current education model.....

vato...don't worry about it. We all read all the posts on here crying about how they couldn't afford these "drastic" premiums being taken from their paychecks.

Sarah

" American companies who claim to be patriotic and in love with their fellow citizens but ship their jobs overseas because it feeds their own wallets."

Just remember that thousands of Americans are employed due to other countries buying our products........it is a global economy like it or not.....

If companies didn't have to subsidize all the welfare in this country (and overly paid union wages) with taxes, maybe they would not move......last time I checked there isn't anything illegal about moving a company to another location....if there is let me know..

": You claim that 'We get public sector people on here crying'...yet you can't find one example??"

I'm still looking tthompson.....I swear somebody said that teachers would lose so much money that it would equal a car or mortgage payment..I just can't remember who posted it Nancy. .

Zoom....your comment about "conservatives lying about GM's success because Obama facilitated the deal" is beyond stupid. Many of us were totally against subsidizing this mess when Bush was talking about it. As far you calling this a "success", that's laughable! I guess in the mind of a liberal, a government "investment" that only loses the taxpayers $30,000,000,000, is considered a success......right?? There is no doubt that this bailout saved the jobs of thousands of Americans, but to portray it as a success in any other terms is a joke. A company is given tens of billions in interest free "loans", is able to walk away from it's obligations--effectively screwing tens of thousands of American investors--in a sham bankruptcy where the labor union is somehow given a huge interest in the company. To further subsidize recovery, billions more of taxpayer dollars are spent in a cash for clunkers program, to jump start the initial investment. When results are reported, questionable accounting is used to soften the blow! Yes, an overwhelming success for sure!!:)

youkill...GM was saved on the backs of the tax payers. Same as when Janesville offers incentives to companies to expand in Janesville and provide jobs for its citizens. And, as I said before on this thread, according to an article in the New York Times, GM crowed loudly about paying off the TARP funds when they actually moved money from another tax payer funded escrow account to pay some of the debt. Not illegal but a little sneaky. Also the article stated that $30 billion of the money will probably never be paid back. For those of you who hate corporations, you have been quiet about this one. Even after GM screwed Janesville.

Yes, manufacturing is dead...because we now have sentient robots building other sentient robots that manufacture things.

The fact remains than the U.S. is still a manufacturing export power, second only to China in 2010.

The only thing on fire is the big fatty I rolled up.

Interesting how some conservatives writing here quickly shifted the focus from the GM success story to public unions and Walker, which have nothing to do with the story above.

They lie about GM's success only because the Obama administration facilitated GM's reorganization.

It's a global economy like it or not. Manufacturing is dead. Get high tech training.

SarahB1- I agree 100%. We need to start setting tariffs so high it cost them more to make it there and ship it here than it would to just make the stuff here. Level the playing field and they will be knocking down the doors to get back in.

Obama should take his cue from Janesville city officials. Just give GM the money as a forgivable loan for providing X number of jobs divided over a two or three year period or count the number of toilet flushes per employee per year times 50 cents. Either formula works here. Instead, Obama accepted stock notes as collateral for capital and saved over a million jobs. Socialist! That's plenty more than what some of these companies coming to Janesville are giving us for collateral in exchange for free taxpayer dollars, and nobody says a word. I would also bet GM employees and satellite operations already paid more than $30 billion in federal taxes and added billions more in economic activity.

Good point Sarah. Why is it okay for American companies to ship millions of jobs overseas, but not okay for a union member to buy a foreign made product? Remember, all union members also support their unions with dues.

Vato: You claim that 'We get public sector people on here crying'...yet you can't find one example??

Hope you have an extra pair close by cuz yo pants are on fire my friend.

I can't find the post tt. Honestly.

It's been an hour vato...

Private unions I have no issue with because they bargain with a private company..but you bargaining with public sector unions is like bargaining with the devil....you will get severely burned alive...

"What i dont like to see is recall walker people, public employees complaining that walker busted up the union,and took away collective barganing while they are driving foriegn non union made vehicles. Yes a lot of them are made here, but are non union made."

Thank you. And where do the profits go? Hypocrisy of the highest order......

Enough said.

People have the right to choose what brand of vehicle they want to drive. im a union electrician i drive Ford trucks and Harley motorcycles. All union made, union workers, union labor. What i dont like to see is recall walker people, public employees complaining that walker busted up the union,and took away collective barganing while they are driving foriegn non union made vehicles. Yes a lot of them are made here, but are non union made.Please support union labor if you are a union public employee.Please correct me if im wrong but Toyota no longer has any union production left in the country. Volkswagon has a union plant.

Frogger

That's what I said...they hold a higher resale value because American cars are built by inept corporations like GM who don't know what quality is......

Give me a minute tt. I will look into Panama Reds posts.....

ezoner"Look -- this isnt a right or left issue. Chrysler seems to have improved significantly -- sales are way up"
yes when you sell 1 last year and 2 this year that is 100% which still isn't very much.
Imports are way down only because of suppy issues. They didn't have the cars to sell to people so I would have to assume the domestics picked up a little there because they couldn't get what they really wanted now.

"We get public sector people on here crying as to how they are going to make mortgage payments, car payments, buy groceries etc because they have to pay for insurance and pensions, don't you see the hypocrisy? I can't stand the crying public sector folks here in WI do."
Sure easier to do this when you aren't fixing the Chevy all of the time!!!
The only price difference of "these expensive" cars is that stupid $5000 rebate. Don't worry you wont get that back at trade time.
Maybe they are doing the smart thing by leasing those cars. They are teachers and leasing is a smart way to buy a vehicle and never worry about anything but maintainance.

'We get public sector people on here crying as to how they are going to make mortgage payments, car payments, buy groceries etc because they have to pay for insurance and pensions, don't you see the hypocrisy?'

Show me one example or you are the only hypocrite here.

"Vato: Do some research before you spout your opinions once. You realize that many Hondas/Toyotas have a lower overall cost of ownership than their pseudo American counterparts?? Let me know if you need me to explain what that means."

Right on TT.
ALso when they are done with it-it is still worth something. You don't have to give people 5,000-10,000 off to get them to buy it. They hold their value and when you put 200k on it people will still buy them to put another 100k on them vs sending a domestic with 200k( if it gets there at all) to the junk pile for parts.

"All the conservatives that don't want govt interference sure don't mind nosing into what peoples are driving or what theyre using to pay for their groceries."

Taxpayer funded benefits and pay is every taxpayers business my friend.......no its not my business what people drive or eat but don't play the victim card when you can afford big priced items....that was my point...

Like they say...don't get in between a public servants paycheck.....

" the question of why is it your business what anyone drives?? "

If you don't like what I say don't eat it brother...plain and simple....

": My point wasnt about the resale value. My point was that you blast the teachers for driving 'expensive' vehicles,"

We get public sector people on here crying as to how they are going to make mortgage payments, car payments, buy groceries etc because they have to pay for insurance and pensions, don't you see the hypocrisy? I can't stand the crying public sector folks here in WI do.

why_think...according to an article in the NY Times GM paid back some of the money with other taxpayer funds in an escrow account. They made a big deal about saying they paid it off but in reality they just moved money around from one debt to another. Also in the article it is estimated that $30 billion they borrowed will never be paid back. You can google the article.

vato: My point wasnt about the resale value. My point was that you blast the teachers for driving 'expensive' vehicles, which is a blank, ignorant, and mostly untrue statement, yet those 'expensive' cars including 'honda, toyota' may actually cost less to own over the life of the vehicle. Nevermind the question of why is it your business what anyone drives??

All the conservatives that don't want govt interference sure don't mind nosing into what peoples are driving or what theyre using to pay for their groceries.

Look -- this isnt a right or left issue. Chrysler seems to have improved significantly -- sales are way up. GM is still struggling and will likely never rebound. GM should have been broken up. SOme would have been out of work, more than there was anyway -- we will never know. But they are a total failure.

I agree Thompson......they have a better resale value...

And yes...more of the imports are being built here which a good thing for everyone.....

And,,,if I as a taxpayer had a vested interest in GM...where is my benefit?

I want my money back....I'll take a Volt please or a Truck......

yes, it cost money to save GM, the auto industry in American and thousands of jobs...SHOCKING!
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I remember people screaming socialism (shocking) and that it won't work. Heck, I remember people saying, "It failed".
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It wasn't and should not have been a popular decision. Nobody wants the government to bailout GM or any other private corporation but Mr. Obama had the courage and leadership to do it.
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BTW, the loans GM received have been paid back.

Big Government, bail out GM, print more money, rob the next generation of the freedoms that we're squandering away and people have the nerve to hail Obama?? History truly does repeat itself....

just to pile on...
Vat, you are full of garbage. Many, MANY??? What does that mean? That kind of general garbage statement might work on conservative radio, fox or someone with a blind agenda to mislead (VAT!)
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Go check-out the parking lots at SDJ schools. How MANY of those vehicles do you see?
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80% of those vehicle you list are built by the common American worker. Please explain how it is that you come to determine that they don't care about the common american worker...simply based on what they drive??

916: It was a good deal for the thousands of familys who's jobs were directly and indirectly saved.

Vato: Do some research before you spout your opinions once. You realize that many Hondas/Toyotas have a lower overall cost of ownership than their pseudo American counterparts?? Let me know if you need me to explain what that means.

I love listening to the righties squeal like piglets over this success. Thank you Mr. President and have a great second term!

Many school teachers drive around with expensive Hondas, Lexus, Infinitys, Toyotas, Nissan trucks with recall walker stickers.....yeah...they care about the common American worker....

Why_think........Yes, let's congratulate Obama for this wonderful achievement! To think it only cost us around $30,000,000,000.........What a deal!

You mean "Obama Motors" ?

How many Volts are driven in Janesville? Does anyone own one? What about the UAW leaders? Do they get one for running local 95?

To be honest, I didn't think GM would fare so well after their near collapse. Their products "seem" to be better, even though the ones I've owned in the last 7 years were not good cars by any measure. Time will tell. Quality, in my opinion, is getting between 150k and 200k out of a car with minimal repair or costs beyond normal wear and tear and upkeep. Honda and Toyota set that standard decades ago. Besides the trucks, Americans have had a hard time making quality vehicles. I hope that changes.

This probably wont hel Janesville's cause to get GM to reopen the plant here so i am not going to worry about something that is never going to happen.

Some people always have to make it about themselves.

"onstar"......LOLOLOL..

What was the sales number bantered around last year for Janesville to even be considered for potential production?

Does this mean that GM is coming back to Janesville?

"Coolant leaks days after National Highway Traffic Safety Administration side crash tests caused several fires."

"The fires, which happned one to three weeks after the crash tests, were sparked after the cars had been slowly rotated as part of a post-test procedure causing the coolant to come into contact with circuit boards. The batteries were still charged at the time."

"The Volt has gotten high crash test scores from NHTSA as well as from the privately funded Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. No post-crash fires have been reported in real-world situations, according to NHTSA."

That is hardly a case of a vehicle that "spontaneously catches fire", ezoner. For those unable to read well, you have to crash the vehicle in a specific way, then rotate it as if it were a chicken being turned on a rotisserie. As the article states, there were no fires in the real world, only with these specific lab test conditions.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/05/autos/vo...

I'm assuming this isn't due to their ridiculous Onstar product that I spent multiple calls from my car trying to get installed for free but couldn't get accomplished due to "technical glitches" that were only discovered after my 5th call. Can't wait to dump my GM.

Way to go GM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Boy is this propoganda. GM is a total failure. We will never get our money back out of them and they are credited with the failure of the Volt. A car that nobody wants and now we find out is spontaneously catches fire.

Make sure if you credit President Obama as the "cause" for "saving the auto industry" be sure you credit him with 8.5% unemployment and a 16 trillion dollar deficit as the "effect" of his actions.

Thank you Mr. President. Without your leadership and willingness to take this risk GM may just be a footnote in history.
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An additional, but obvious thank you to the proactive democrats in Congress as well.