fear - the link you posted is awesome - I doubt if justdon'taskme will understand it though. I'm awed by the fact that school districts are ALLOWED to invest taxpayer money in hail-mary type risky investments. I hope this is a wake-up call for ALL taxpayers to DEMAND oversight on school district abuses of taxpayer money.

JustDONTaskme- Is it the greedy evil teachers that should be bamed and scapegoated for this recession? A little light reading if you can get through it. Maybe youll learn a thing or 2. This buds for you:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/s...

Well there miss scarlet, since when is 12:29 AM Bar time? That aside some of us require burning the midnight oil to make a living, but hey call me drunk all you like, still waiting for someone to refute my post on the Act 10 "tools for education" that do not exist. Act 10 cuts salaries and benefits, then Governor Poopie Pants cuts further and deeper on top of it? WHat kind of budget repair is that? Taking from teachers and kids to pay off corporate donors? Good Idea to lay off the beerski, might do your brain some good.

or how about BEERandrhetoricFROMdummies...BLAHahahahahahaha

Good morning fearandrhetoric4dummies. Take a look at the post that you wrote at 'bar time' this morning. Isn't it a hoot. You should change your usernane to beerandrhetoric4dummies

It's becoming clearer every day that Governor Scott Walker's policies are helping Wisconsin become a strong and credible state. After the recall election, he should pursue the elimination of public unions so that our state may grow to become the greatest state in the union, instead of becoming a carbon copy of Greece's failed 'union-run' disaster.

Okay rococo and others, Teachers should just teach for less and less and listen to idiots talk abut "its just for the kids" so take your hugely expensive education and be paid less.
There is NOTHING in act 10 that relates to education. Your tools argument is ONLY related to the taking back of 10-15% of teacher salaries statewide. That gouped with the Walker administration's record cuts on funding, while giving under qualified political friends jobs in the state government on huge increases? Maybe you should read the bill, because if you honestly think anything in Act 10 is about bettering education in Wisconsin? You must be high, drunk, or whatever, just plain dumb.

Yeah, always nabout the children. Red herring.

Yeah, who cares about those union brothers and sisters anyhow? Lay them off! We gotta protect our own and send gov Walker a message. We don't change anything that takes money out of our pockets! The children? Who cares about them? We dare you to balance the budget by laying people off! You will be obliged.

fear - I'm not going to read Act 10 to you. I suggest that, early some morning, before you get drunk, google a summary of the Act and learn it for yourself.

What "tools" are you talking about? Giving 10% back from a settled contract for? WHAT? I want to know what are these mythical "tools" that allof the Walker parrots are talking about. Act 10 just takes money out of their pockets. Is money the tool? Or are you the tool? I do know that you are a parrot rococo chick, you might want to try and conjure up an original thought sometime. Outside of that you sound like a repeating parrott. While I completely disagree with totellalie on every level, at least I can have an argument with him. You are just repeating the gov verbatim. Why on Earth would anyone give back 10% of their income immediately when theyre going to have to do it anyways at the end of their STTLED contract. They shouldnt have to do it, because no one else would , including you, so grow up and have an original thought why dont you!

totell...., I hope your child has recovered from the trauma of the squeaky shoe incident. I can't imagine anything worse happening in one's life - likely scarred forever. Parents complaining about such issues should tell all of us what we need to know about why so many problems exist.

Janesville teachers had their chance to get the tools they needed under Act 10 - they chose not to, so NOW it's time to pay the price.

Walker has CUT OVER 800 MILLION DOLLARS - That is the problem. Time for voters to remove him or let the JOHN DOE investigation do it.
walkerinvestigation.com

ahh, the dumbing down of America, the right wing agenda.

""The overall problem in Janesville is that it is top heavy.""
One thing we will agree on is administrators are overpaid, over staffed, and under worked.
My axe to grind is with people who blame teachers for their kids failings, not themselves. Your sad story about squeaky shoes really melts my heart and I am sure that is why your kid is having a problem because you feel a teacher hates him because of loud shoes?
I said it before, of course there are sub par teachers. In High school a kid has 10+ different teachers per year? I would contend that 1 out of those 10 may be subpar, isnt it on the child and the parents to overcome that one poor teacher and make the grade? Or is it the old andry teachers fault for distracting your son/daughter for "squeaky shoes".
1 bad parent affects 4 to 5 kids, and in one classroom we have say 25-30 different kids , so out of those its my contention that AT MINIMUM 60% of those families dont do their jobs with their kids. The rule for today seems to be to blame the teachers , because "its not my angel", PUH leeese!! Parents need to take responsibility and teach their kids some as well. Good lord, if your kid is soo picked on then pull them and home school.
Btw, ill be willing to bet that on a low estimate, 85% of the teachers signed the recall petitions, AND THEY SHOULD> Besides ACT10, this idiot governor made RECORD cuts to education funding. Less pay for teachers , less dollars for school programs. Using BS slogans like tools mean nothing when youre main goal is to destroy public education. What teacher in their right mind wouldnt want these people recalled? Use your head for something other than a hatrack!!
Dont like the recall? DOnt vote! See you at the ballot box June 5! Also we will have a chance to vote Walker out twice, in the primary as well.

ACT 11 would have prevented KAYSBEW from posting her "pig headed" extreme comments.

""I'm saying that maybe mediocre teachers ought to be encouraged to pursue another profession...""
Maybe we should say that about parents instead, because the percentage of mediocre to poor parents is FAR higher than that of teachers. The main problem with all of you armchair quarterbacks when it comes to instruction and teaching, you are simply motivated by an ideological axe to grind. Instead of beating the crap out of "bad" teachers at every turn, why dont we talk to the very large portion of parents who barely pay attention to their kids. Those parents are NOT limited to poor schools and neighborhoods. I live in a pretty decent area of Janesville and see young kids (8-9) year olds, riding Bikes outdoors no shirt, no shoes, no helmet at 10 Oclock on many school nights!! Mom and dad? Teachers cannot follow the kids home, if parents are drinking beer everynight in the driveway watching the fire pit till 11 o clock on a weeknight , while the kids are running rampant, how on Earth will they succeed in school?
Too many parents believe that school is simply a place for their kids to go when they work, and dont put in the work at home to help their child excel. I currenntly have a first grader doing 2-3rd grade math and reading at a fourth grade level. Is that because he is playing video games? Is that solely because of his great teachers in Milton SD? Or is it because we have RULES, STRUCTURE, EXPECTATIONS.
Sorry but there is a lot more to raising kids than just feeding tem dinner and turning on the TV! We all have long days at work, we all want to have social lives, But if you have kids......START RAISING THEM!!!!! If they turn out great its because of moms and dads, period! I have been volunteering coaching youth sports for almost 20 years, and I will tell you, the best kids ALWAYS have parents that are INVOLVED, and AROUND!!
All this nonsense about bad teachers and good teachers is just playing the bklame game for your own shortcomings as parents. IF you get a sub-standard teacher(yes they exist) then step in and help your child press through it!! If its that bad , make noise talk to administrators, district offices, school boards. If you believe that your child is being cheated its your responsibility to advocate for your child, no matter how much you have to scream and yell.

Yours!

Why aren't you people at work?

I find it interesting that friends who are teachers tell me they are happy their children chose OTHER professions to pursue. Though they love teaching children and work hard at it, they would not recommend it as a career choice anymore.

Act 10 would have avoided this situation if not for pig headed liberals who put greed ahead of teachers and children.
I see Milwaukee is begging for this change to save the system from cutting. I hope the GOP says I told you so.

Fear -- gotta defend Sigma a little here -- I had completed all that the public school system (the one I was in) was qualified to teach in math and sciences by the end of Soph year. I taught myself (using college textbooks) analytical geometry and Calc. Then took the CLEP tests to prove to myself -- I understood -- passed them -- but took the classes anyway. Easy A's-- So when I am stating that private education, home schooling and big changes are required in public education I know that putting lower aptitude kids in the same classes with those that can move quicker causes problems -- I know it for a fact. What I did would not be recommended for all, but the current systems would not even allow what I did. I was taking classes with Sr.'s as a Soph. The system does not allow for indivudual excellence and performance. It produces exactly what you termed a cookie cutter education, and that doesnt work. Im not einstein, but Im brighter than the average bulb.

One challeneg kids have today that have a lower aptitude -- is we really need to start teaching sooner and thats pretty much left up to the parents. We had our kids in language classes learning German and Spanish at 3. Math and sciences I handle and many times work with a teacher if they are willing so that I can push the kids as hard as they can handle it. So I actually show them calc and diff e q now, even though they dont understand so they will be comfortable with the symbology and relate things to real world applications. Parents are the key -- not teachers. Teachers are tools that parents need to use.

Also -- I would say more computers not less are required. More technology -- not less. But we need to become more efficient in teaching and experiement with new ideas.

Fear of Technology? I am an IT guy and can tell you, kids dont get enough from just sitting in front of the Bozo puter to succeed in this world. There certainly arent subjects you can learn from a go to meetings session in citrix. Un believably stupid premise. What I see from you and those that believe as you do is a complete lack of common sense and reason. Eliminate schools for computers and books? Treat kids like robots? Very poor articulation on your part.

Sigma was obviously failed terribly by the system, too bad really.
Teachers are a waste of space? Tell that to my AP calculus teacher, ever take calc siggy? Like to see you learn any type of advanced mathematics from reading and comprehending a book. Hows about Social Sience, Physical Science, Literature interpretation?
Grow up, seriously, that post was one of your most ridiculous, and that is saying something. Maybe you stopped learning once you could read/comprehend at a 3rd grade level, but some of us are still learning, every single day, and very little of that comes from the internet or from reading a Reddy Freddy book.

Teachers can only do so much. All they are a lot of the time is a "relay". They relay info from a book to the student. Once a student learns to read and comprehend a teacher is a waste of space. You can learn more online and in books than any one teacher can teach you... and cheaper. People in fear of technology and change would be the only reason to oppose fewer teachers. I know a number of my old teachers were worthless.

Thank you for your insightful comments, kidsfirst.

For those who do not understand: RtI= Response to Intervention. That means that when any student does not make adequate progress in general education instruction, then, a team determines specific strategies to improve learning. There are Tier II (small groups of 3-7) and then Tier III (either 1:1 or 1:2) instruction of specific skills. If after not making or being able to sustain academic gains with this intensive level of instruction, then, a special education referral may be considered. If the student is referred for and meets criteria for placement in special education, it is because the instruction in the small 1:1 or 1:2 was not sufficient.

The irony of this whole idea is that due to RtI, the students who now qualify for SpEd is that their needs are consistently, and significantly, more pronounced than ever before. Which means that the level of service they need is greater than ever before. Instead of increasing the number on the caseload, the district should be maintaining, or actually decreasing the number of students on special education caseloads. . . the paperwork involved, never-mind instruction for, student who fail to make adequate annual progress, has never been greater.

wader - where did you get your information about WEA Trust? unlike any other insurance or investment company, it is not for profit. There are higher returns for the investors and clients than any other such agency.

In today's market, the WEA Trust health insurance cannot compete with the self-funded "Alliance" -- not because they do not offer a quality service for the dollar, but because health insurance has become a marketing game. The bigger the group, the greater the buying power, and thus, the smaller the discount for smaller insurance groups. Do you know what you talk about?

Of course Wadert you are aware that the Kaukauna school district was offered all of the financial concessions they recievedwith the implementation of act 10, so stripping their collective bargaining rights really didnt do anything but follow a political ideology, nothing more.
Ezoner your solution is to make more people poorer at the expense of the wealthy and greedy? BTW plenty of folks in the private sector are getting raises. The "Scott Walker" plan is to cut now and continue to cut. It has nothing to do with public v private, that is nothing more than a straw man argument. People like you and others fall into this silly debate where you deem it acceptable to keep cutting education funding as a solution to stopping government spending. At some point investments need to be made, raises need to be given, professions need to be made more attractive not less. The road to improve something isnt to strip it down and hire Chinese teachers at a dollar an hour. Which seems to be the new American business plan. Which is simple minded and shallow. I get the feeling you are an older person that has no vested interest in education, in other words has an axe to grind.

Fear -- you will never understand that public institutions breed a lazy entitlement attitude.

The logic for you -- private pay is decreasing, so you want public pay and benefits to increase. Crating greater disparity, reducing private $$ available for new business and opportunity.

Or -- My way -- Private pay decreases. Public pay and benefits follow -- creating parity and allowing for equivalent $$ to remain avilable to encourage investment and growth.

Hmmmmm

You must alter something, change something to adjust to the economic position that you find yourself in. If thats a change in collective bargaining -- fine, if thats a change in pay for new entries, fine. There are many ways to seek out a solution, but closing the door and blaming is definately not a solution. Using the same old same old -- doesnt work.

Cut Administration - Yes some (Hilliker/Schulte)
Further cuts to teachers - No, they have given their fair share
Further cuts to Spec Ed teachers - No, they have given their fair share

Implementation of aggressive energy savings measures - Yes

Statewide Aggressive refinement of Health Insurance for Educators - Yes (close WEA Trust)
This will make more state moneys available for other districts and there expenses.

My understanding is that thankfully Janesville does not participate in WEA Trust...but we all need to work hard to wipe out this CON organization because it is consuming state funding that we would otherwise get a larger portion of. Read below -

"It was in the collective bargaining agreement that we could only negotiate with them," said Arnoldussen referring to the past, when Kaukauna's agreement with the teachers union required the school district to purchase health insurance coverage from WEA Trust - a company created by the Wisconsin teachers union. This year, the trust told Kaukauna that it would face a significant increase in premiums. With the collective bargaining agreement gone, the school district is free to shop around for coverage. Kaukauna can reduce the size of its classes - from 31 students to 26 students in high school and from 26 students to 23 students in elementary school. In addition, there will be more teacher time for one-on-one sessions with troubled students. Those changes would not have been possible without the changes in collective bargaining. The money saved will be used to hire a few more teachers and institute merit pay.

Other examples of district savings include Oshkosh school board, which will save over $3.7 million over the next three years due to switching health insurance providers away from WEA Trust,[342] Menomonee Falls school board will save $2.4 million by changing health providers,[275] Hudson school district will save over $1 million by changing health providers,[343] Ashland school district will save $378,000 by changing health providers,[344] and Wauwatosa school board which would have faced a choice of laying off more than 100 teachers and other employees, yet were able to prevent that outcome by implementing pay freezes and employees accepting higher pension payments and higher deductible health care plans as well as the property tax levy projected to decrease.

And thanks to the "private" markets what has happened to income in this nation? Down, down ,down. The comparison isnt relavant. In the private sector employers do everything they can to decrease wages to increase their own bottom line, that is the model we should follow? Sorry, but this nation needs a middle class, economic policy of the last 30 years and free-trade has done everything to decimate the private sector and destroy the American worker.

Who exactly joins the teaching field and spends 50k+ on an education for.....benefits? Very flawed thinking by someone with a political axe to grind.
Run education like a business? Sure like American businesses? Where the worker, or in this case the student, gets the short end of the stick and the short end keeps getting shorter?All in the neame of efficiency? Where have I heard that one before? Not buying into that one, not one bit.
Privatization id great if you are trying to make a buck. How exactly would you include the large majority of students in this country who could never afford private education? Leave them out? Or would you just have mchinist and eelding schools for the poorest families?

Not buying the whole spearation of intelligent kids and "welding" kids into different classrooms is atrocious!! At what point do you start giving up on kids futures? Start putting them in the "welding classes" ? 5th grade? 8th grade?
How many people struggled in HS only to get it together at a tech school move on to a 4 year and succeed? Maturity goes a long way.
Ezoner while your "ideas" are of the best intentions, they are way too filled with slogans and ideas that just dont serve the public as education is supposed to do. NOT operate like a Pizza Delivery business. There certainly could be efficiencey measures taken, but the privatization feature in education would be disasterous foor this nation going forward. Public education is what makkes this nation great, privatizing it would only further widen the income desparity gap, which turns the nation more and more into a third world nation. Brainwashing people into thinking privatization is the way to go , into a "businesslike" mentality benefits the few, not society, which is the idea behind public education.

creature -- The problem goes deeper than parent involvement. What I am saying is that in the interest of treating all as equal (students) and giving all a chance, we are holding back some of the kids. They are not allowed to develop at the rate they could. Students are not placed based upon ability. That helps solve part of the problem that you address. Parents that do not provide support will see their children struggle or be placed in programs that better fit their abilities.

I do feel that we need to look at the pay of ALL public employees and their benefits. I have seen a number of instances where the pay and benefits are not in alignment with private. I am deeply concerned about the way some teachers handled their displeasure of the new rules/laws. The message they have is grossly overshadowed by their actions and therefore leads people to the conclusion that teachers are not advocating in the best interest of knowledge and learning, but their own pockets. In the end -- they are not there to raise our kids, only to provide them with the tools for learning and education. Its what the kids and parents do with those tools that matters most.

Cutting teachers no, cutting administrator positions and their salary a big yes. The real problem with education is not the teacher but the student and parent. Spending $10,000, $15,000 or even $20,000 per child per year will not improve performance unless the student does the work. Students need daily interaction from parents on homework and class preparation to maintain focus. Most underperforming students have little to no parent guidance and too much time goofing off. Take away dependent deductions and require parents to pay back for each year the grades average is below 2.5. I guarantee you will see a dramatic improvement in grades if parents see the looming cost of parental laziness.

Fear --- Traditionalists want to keep repeating the same things that dont work. I see you and other speaking about old data,, yet you want to apply an antiquated system and thats ok.

Privatisation is not a bad thing. If parents actually see its their own money they would take a much greater interest in the education of their children. We cannot expect the educational system to improve if the people in the system are the only ones providing input and support. It needs to be a broader offering of ideas. The current system is broken. We have people that have joined the teaching field for the benefits and not necessarily for the love of educating children.

Where we do agree is that like any professional career and especially public service positions, there are too many leaders and not enough workers so I would support either lowering admin pay as well or eliminating admin positions to get more out of the people in place. Education needs to be run more like a business, it will become more efficient and more effective. We need to educate based upon ability, not the broad based approach we have today where we put highly intelligent kids in the same classes with those with a lower apptitude for learning. We have taught our kids that you need a college education, when in reality we also need welders and laborers as well. We need machinists as well as doctors and attnys. The educational path is not the same, yet we dont want to offend someone by telling them the facts and we want to make all equal, when in reality, they are not.

We dont want to say there are winners and losers in sports, we want to send everyone home with a positive message -- when in reality, its all about winning and losing, those who succeed and those that fail. So we force kids that really have no desire to sit in calculus to learn a subject they will never use nor want to learn.

Its time to change our philosophy on education and transfor the educational system to allow America to lead again.

So the average size of a classroom now is 40 plus? This is sad.

The article today about K Dommerhausen being concerned about special ed cuts is great. Unfortunately its all about the bucks with our board and statewide republicans. Cut dollars no matter whom it affects.

Exactly the medicine to ultra conservative Mississippi. The most conservative, poorest , lowest educated state in the union. This is the model that Scott Walker and the republican machine would like to follow. If we do not replace these politicians in these recalls , and this backwards method of thinking, we will continue the trend downward in Wisconsin, and this country.
Why is it that the most poverty stricken and lowest educated states are the least educated? huh? I would please like someone to point out a scenarion in which cutting funding and paying teachers less leads to a better public ed system. I have had this argument over and over with Ezoner and Vato and still have yet to see a specific scenario where that could work. Public schools outperform private schools in almost every scenario. All I hear is generalities about methodologies from people with no background in education. People that have never sniffed a classroom in an impoverished area. So get back to me when youve spoken to the teachers in the field and ask them what they think the answer is, not some mythical "friends" that just happen to believe the same way you do either.I would even go so far to say this, I have teacher friends and relatives that would be fine without the union protection from bad teachers IF they themselves werent so threatened by politicians with ideological motives to blow up public ed as we know it and they understand that without their union that the landscape would change so terribly for teachers and students that deperately need the Horrible spending. Lets be honest "merit pay" is an absolute myth.
So if we want top have a real discussion about where we should go with education, at least be honest about what you want , and what your final goal is, like investa, because he is the epidemy of conservatives belief of education and what it should be, and I think that is why teachers stand with their unions so strongly.

Yeah spend spend spend, more generalities coming from people who really have no idea of the dynamics of a classroom. Philosophizing about teaching methodologies based on your hatred for unions and public education.
Of coourse they would be the first ones you would cut Ezoner, you hate them because they stand for what they believe in, sticking together to protect a profesion and the future of that profession being an important cornerstone in the USA and our public education system that is the basis of the American dream, giving every American a shot at an education, because slashing education spending merely in the name of an ideology, will make things worse.
Perfect example of what Ezoner and others are really saying, just look to posts on this thread from investa-""
what we REALLY need to be talking about is the tranformation from public schools to private schools. Each school would get real smart, real fast, when they simply have to bill the parents for educating their children - you know, like a real business does."" Of course educating kids is not a "business" and never should be looked at as such, an unbelievably dumb premise; and this""There is really no room for cuts in the administration - Superintendent Karen Schulte, and her court, are as lean as they can be. All further cuts need to be made to the teaching staff."" Oh really? Pay administrators and their cohorts up to what 4 to 5 times what many teachers make? Is Karen Schulte worth 5 young teachers?? What does she do that is that important that we couldnt find someone to do for say the top end salary of what a teacher makes? Instead of 6 figure salaries? Administrative staff and pay could EASILY be cut, they do very little compared to what instructors do.
One more from investa:""The answer is 'Right to Work'. Get rid of the public unions. We can keep the SAME number of teachers, just pay them less. It's just that simple.""
So lets get this straight , dont cut administrators their pay or anything. Cut teachers, their pay and everything that they contribute comparatively , and privatize everything?

Fear -- here you go again... spend -- spend -- spend -- with reports available that indicate that class size has virtually no effect it becomes apprent that parent involvement has much more of an effect and teaching methodlogy and tools have much more of an effect. You choose to ignore facts and follow specific teachers recommendations, that clearly must be struggling to cope with developing a succesful teaching style.

The 1st positions I would cut would be for the teachers that went to Madison -- taking a day away from their jobs. If they chose to go after hours or on weekends -- fine, thats their time. But taking a sick day when not ill is completely unacceptable and sets a poor example for kids.

who's laughing? Almost every slanted opinion you post is a joke!! There is a "wealth" of information to support any OPINION you want to put forth. You certainly entitled to read and believe whatever peer-reviewed journal you want to. It seems all of your current data in the examples you cited are from 1982-1998? Is that current?
I understand you may not like reading articles written about class size because they are in a newspaper article, but I hate to inform you there are THOUSANDS of sources written by TEACHERS and the folks in the profession that will tell you the exact same thing written in every article I cited. Again, I dont understand why ideology blinds people from understanding the simplicity of the subject. Smaller class size is better for education, more individual instruction is ALWAYS positive for students, why is that so difficult for you to grasp even with your "wealth" of peer-reviewed opinions?

The Causal Effect of Class Size on Academic Achievement: Multivariate Instrumental Variable Estimators With Data Missing at Random
Journal of Educational and Behavioral Statistics April 1, 2011 36: 154-185

The Non-Cognitive Returns to Class Size
Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis March 1, 2011 33: 23-46

The Brown Legacy and the O'Connor Challenge:Transforming Schools in the Images of Children's Potential Educational Researcher April 1, 2009 38: 169-180

The Wisdom of Class-Size Reduction American Educational Research Journal September 1, 2007 44: 670-700

The Effects of Small Classes on Academic Achievement: The Results of the Tennessee Class Size Experiment American Educational Research Journal January 1, 2000 37: 123-151

Teaching Mathematics and Language Arts in Reduced Size and Non-Reduced Size Classrooms Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis January 1, 2000 22: 313-329

You wrote they were not reputable. I dont employ your childish tactic of rejecting something out of hand because 1 person's OPINION (not fact) or because I disagree with the persons ideology.

There IS a wealth of data, current data that suggests that school size, especially in 4-12 grades is not a factor in student achievement. I concede there is data which suggest otherwise. USA today, the chicago tribune are not reputable, peer reviewed journals-are they? Perhaps these peer reviewed pieces were published right next the summary of the Bachelor or comments from dancing with the stars? Simply because its published does not give it weight or credibility-then again I doubt you understand the distinction.

I support economists and academics and others who life's work involves stastical analysis of complex issues-and finds answers within that analysis. If you want to continue to site the USA today-which in terms of credibility ranks slightly above wikipedia and slightly below the Janesville Gazette feel free-next time just let me know what is on HBO at 830pm so that after I laugh at your post I can resume living.

Yeah investa , Right to work for less is the solution. Give me a break. Making an important profession less attractive to future talent is stupid as can be!! Too bad you were failed so terribly by the system, maybe it would be easier for you to see the importance of the system.

So let me get this straight, your Sources are "reputable" TCB because you agree with their premise? Makes me laugh.

http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/ReducingClass/Cl...

http://www.greatschools.org/find-a-schoo...

http://www.boardingschoolsinfo.com/small...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2...

http://privateschool.about.com/cs/employ...

http://www.oregonlive.com/happy-valley/i...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1987-...

http://www.nationalforum.com/Electronic%...

http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/...

http://www.educationworld.com/a_admin/ar...

I have a hundred more. Just because you dislike someones sources doesnt make their points any less factual than you slanted opinions.
You know hose opinions I trust when it comes to class size? Teachers! Any time you reduce class size your child gets more individual attention, its simple math!

3300 students in one building, People who actually believe this is a good idea maybe should not participate on blogs regarding education. Clearly you have absolutely no clue!

Were does this idea of going to one high school come from? Have you walked the hallways? I teach at Craig and we can barely fit the kids we have in the rooms available. It is interesting that the district has also assigned 3 year reevals for all special education students to the special education teachers. These 3 year re-evals can take 20 hours and used to be done by school psychologists due to the large amount of testing. Now those psychologists are running RTI and the federally mandated paperwork gets passed on to the special ed teachers, now we want to cut the number especially at the high school. I don't know how they are supposed to get it all done.

facts,

What education peer review journal editoral review boards do you sit on? Afterall, you make the claim that the 20+ citations I posted are not reputable-I'd like to know your qualifications....

Thanks!

I should have put @TCB. Sorry for any confusion.

Nobody is following your meaningless posts factsplease, so go somewhere else.

As for peer-reviewed publications, if you had followed this link from my earlier post, you would have seen that it contains a list of research studies, many of which have been published in peer-reviewed journals.
http://www.classsizematters.org/research...

Yes, this means GM is coming back this year - count on it. And yes, it won't be until fall, so plan on ENJOYING your summer because work is just around the corner.

Does this mean GM is coming back? I'm not ready to go back to work quite yet. Hopefuly it won't come back 'till fall because I want the summer OFF.

The Janesville School District has plenty of time to work-out it's multimillion-dollar budget deficit. Like TheJoker says, we need to start talking seriously about going to one high school and closing some other school buildings. And when GM comes back to town later this year, we will all be ahead of the game.

Whew! I've been reading through your "wealth of data" and STILL cannot find ONE study that says categorically (as you stated initially) that class size isn't correlated to school effectiveness(except for one at the college level that only looked at completion of the class, not whether they learned anything). Some of the studies show that in SOME age groups or subjects, class size doesn't matter, but the same studies point out that in other groups and subjects, students(particularly minority students) do better in smaller classes. So in case I missed it, you are still free to post the link to ONE study that backs your claims.
Here it is again:
"There is a wealth of qualitative data that suggests that class size, per pupil expenditure, the fraction of teachers with no certification, and the % of teachers with an advanced degrees are not correlated with school effectiveness."

The answer is 'Right to Work'. Get rid of the public unions. We can keep the SAME number of teachers, just pay them less. It's just that simple.

Teachers "R" education. To the extent that teachers excel, students also excel. And vice versa. Just google PISA scores. Cutting teachers to balance the budget is like cutting off your legs to lose weight. Save the money somewhere else.

fact,

When you publish peer reviewed data-then you can claim that your opinion is reputable-until then-its simply an opinion. Again, you prefer the status quo-which is not reform. read anything by Eric Hanushek-anything at all.

Here are a lot of examples. Took about 2 minutes to find. Your inability to find even a single reputable source is not shocking. Perhaps you went to Parker?

Glass, Gene V., Leonard S. Cahen, Mary L. Smith, and Nikola N. Filby. 1982. School class size: Research and policy. Beverly Hills, CA: Sage.

Finn, Jeremy D. 1998. Class size and students at risk: What is known? What is next? Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Education, Office of Educational Research and Improvement, National Institute on the Education of At-Risk Students.

Robinson, Glen E. and James H. Wittebols. 1986. Class size research: A related cluster analysis for decision-making. Arlington, VA: Education Research Service.

Tomlinson, Tom. 1988. Class size and public policy: Politics and panaceas. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Education, Office of Educational Research and Improvement.

Odden, Allan. 1990. "Class size and student achievement: Research-based policy alternatives." Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis 12 (2): 213-227.

lorida Department of Education. Office of Policy Research. 1998. "The relationship of school and class size with student achievement in Florida: An analysis of statewide data."

Hanushek, Eric A. 1998. "The evidence on class size." Public Testimony, Washington, DC.

Greenwald, Rob, Larry V. Hedges, and Richard D. Laine. 1996. "The effect of school resources on student achievement." Review of Educational Research 66 (3): 361-396. See also Hanushek, Eric A. 1996. "A more Wenglinsky, Harold. 1997. When money matters: How educational expenditures improve student performance and how they don?t. Princeton, NJ: The Educational Testing Service, Policy Information Center.
Heart Study." Washington, DC: ERIC Clearinghouse. ED 402677. See also Mosteller, Frederick. 1995. "The Tennessee Study of Class Size in the Early School Grades."

Finn 1998. Nye, Barbara, B. DeWayne Fulton, Jayne Boyd-Zaharias, and Van A. Cain. 1995. The Lasting Benefits Study, Eighth Grade Technical Report.

Nashville, TN: Center of Excellence for Research in Basic Skills, Tennessee State University.

Kickbusch, Ken. 1996. "Class Size." Madison, WI: Wisconsin Education Association Council, Professional Development Division.

Mosteller, Frederick, Richard J. Light, and Jason A. Sachs. 1996. "Sustained Inquiry in Education: Lessons from Skill Grouping and Class Size."

Egelson, Paula, Patrick Harman and Charles M. Achilles. 1996. Does Class Size Make a Difference? Recent Findings from State and District Initiatives. Washington, DC: ERIC Clearinghouse. ED 398644. See also Finn 1998.
Molnar, Alex, Stephen Percy, Phillip

Same here RoCo. All of my little rug rats would have to go without an edcucation if the property taxpayer didn't foot the bill. My government checks pay for the basics (plus cigarettes and booze of course) with nothing left for the kids.

Privatizing the schools just wouldn't work for me. I've had to have a huge herd of kids in order to live off of the government, and I simply could not afford to pay to educate all of my precious little entitlement-makers.

TheJoker - what we REALLY need to be talking about is the tranformation from public schools to private schools. Each school would get real smart, real fast, when they simply have to bill the parents for educating their children - you know, like a real business does.

TCB, You keep trying to make this about me, all asked for is ONE link to ONE reputable research study (out of the "wealth of data" you claim). Stop commenting on what you think I believe, understand or should get for a grade in research and simply BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS!

fact,

We get it-you prefer the status quo-class size and its impact is a well researched subject. You are free to do your own research-and continue to believe that $10,000 per pupil per year per class is simply not enough and class sizes are too large. That said, the district faces a another multi million deficit which cannot be ignored-the bottomline there is a wealth of data that suggest that class size is largely irrelevant.

walker said he saved all thse jobs

I've said for years that most teachers do a good job under a lousy system. Problem is that so many(like unions, colleges that teach teachers, political parties, etc.) are so invested in the way we do things now that it will take a total colapse of the current system to make any changes.

We need to start talking seriously about going to one high school and closing some other school buildings.

There is really no room for cuts in the administration - Superintendent Karen Schulte, and her court, are as lean as they can be. All further cuts need to be made to the teaching staff.

In case anyone is interested Kennedy Elementary is celebrating their awesome achievement of receiving the Blue Ribbon award today. Not to bad...

I agree with Birdman. Administration needs to make more cuts before they cut any more teachers. I'm not talking salary freezes but real cuts.
*
Getting rid of special education teachers is about the most ignorant thing JSD has done yet. That particular group of teachers sees their caseload go up most years. If any department needs more help it is Special education and there you are cutting them. Bonehead move.

Is the cost per pupil calculated globally account for cost of living?

Your next assertion:-the "facts" are in Janesville test scores have been stagnant for a DECADE
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And another FALSE statement!
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"State test results recorded by Janesville public school students this year show "dramatic" improvement over those from the previous year, "

http://gazettextra.com/news/2011/mar/29/...

"Its bad enough that so many people believe things without any evidence. What is worse is that some people have no conception of evidence and regard facts as just someone else’s opinion."
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Now this, I can agree with!

TCB stated, "There is a wealth of qualitative data that suggests that class size, ... are not correlated with school effectiveness."
I simply asked for some real evidence to back up this assertion. All I got was "google this and google that" which I did and found nothing significant. Now you are trying to assert what I believe????

facts,

you probably also believe that per pupil spending is woefully low and more money is needed.....

You can accept or reject Fryers research-it makes no difference to me-the "facts" are in Janesville test scores have been stagnant for a DECADE but what we are discussing is the politics of education. Lets agree taht failure attracts more money than success. Politically and this is especially true in Janesville-failure becomes a reason to demand more money, smaller classes, and more trendy courses and programs-if nothing else, history shows what can be achieved, even in the face of adversity.

Its bad enough that so many people believe things without any evidence. What is worse is that some people have no conception of evidence and regard facts as just someone else’s opinion.

Did that...his research is considered " poorly documented and often ill-conceived" and "woefully inadequate".
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"Pundits who argue that class size reduction is an especially expensive and inefficient alternative seem willing to ignore outright the substantial additional costs of the strategies promoted in Fryer’s work, arriving at the erroneous conclusion (with Fryer’s full support) that class size reduction is ineffective and costly, and extended school time and intensive tutoring are costless and highly effective."
http://schoolfinance101.wordpress.com/20...
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His strategy is longer school days and intense tutoring, which may work better than small class size, but COST MORE too! Of course he ignores THOSE costs! His research is proven faulty, want to try again?

It's good to see the Challenge Program expanding. We hear a lot about kids who need extra help - but very little about the ones who excel. Thanks for giving them the opportunities they need.

facts,

Google my friend Roland Fryer....(harvard economist)...

You earn an F for research.

I remember when aspiring teachers looked to Janesville as the absolute pinnacle of K-12 education in Wisconsin. It is too bad that the current downtown leadership does not remember or value that. Very sad!

TCB, I googled it and here is the first article.
"Factors Affecting Test Performance: Class Size, Teacher Experience, Teacher Education, and Other Factors"
http://www.bellevueschools.net/factors-a...
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Not one article says that class size is NOT a factor! Nice try!

"The Janesville School Board meets at 6:30 p.m. Tuesday at...". The reporter didn't see the need to give the DATE for this meeting. There are 52 Tuesdays every year Frank.

hows about usig less labels like "liberal" and than we can have a discussion. until then all we do is scoreboard watch about who is right and who is wrong, and about how TERRIBLE unions are. For me the argument is much larger than the union hate that TCB and others like to portray. Maybe you should ask some teachers the ones who actually work in the classrooms about how class sizes matter and dont, it may be more realistic than any google search that you could ever run, or any anonymous blog poster could intelligently speak to.

Class size is night a factor in education. Tell that to the rich people, who choose their schools based on the ratio of teacher to student. Of course, we simple folk are being told that we don't need such things. We don't want to be snobs after all, just passive victims of the corporations and corrupt politicians.

Fact,

Simply google "class size not a factor"-too many links to support the claim. Again, unions-whose main role is to support the union and not the education of the child will claim that class is a significant factor in improving education. Quality teachers improve the educational experience-not quantity of teachers. K-3 is a different issue-the data does support smaller classes rather than larger classes-but again-as long as those classes number about 18 students; minority and low income students also benefit greatly in primary grades. The quality of the teacher not the size of the class drives student achievement-not the other way around.

Some may challenge TCB's facts on class size, etc., but I bet very few would argue with TCB's statement:

"...but hiring the best teachers (and firing the worst) is the most important factor in delivering compulsory education."

This is a no-brainer that even the most liberal of teachers and parents would have a hard time refuting.

Janesville middle schools were instituted in the late 80s. The position of “Learning Support Teacher” was conjured out of thin air. In the main these folks were glorified “gofers” who quickly took over duties already performed by capable Unit Leaders and other staff. At full salary; with full insurances.
. . .
Like your first automobile air conditioner, there was no going back. LSTs are still paid full salary; full benefits. Some are paid at or near top of salary schedule. For NOT TEACHING! Soon it spread to elementary schools. Now the Master of Smoke and Mirrors at the E.S.C. has renamed them to be Academic Coach {or some such nonsensical name}. It still quacks like a duck.
. . .
Record high student poverty. Social workers, who make a real differenc - - Gone! Counselors - - Gone! But these other fluff positions go on.
. . .
LSTs’ duties could again be spread among willing and capable staff. Test scheduling. Field trip organizing. All of it. Divvy it up among the other teachers and pay them a remuneration like coaches and so on. Save the big honkin’ salary and costly insurances. Everything still gets done. Well. Cut those many unnecessary LST positions.
. . .
And get back some Counselors and Social Workers! Keep academic teachers. This is a no brainer, folks.
. . .
Why is our Administration and School Board not acting on this awful situation!?

TCB, any links to back up your assertions?
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Research shows that class size does matter; and that it matters most for socio-economically disadvantaged learners,
http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-02-clas...
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Class size reduction identified as one of four K-12 education reforms proven to increase learning.
http://www.classsizematters.org/research...
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This study provides nationally representative evidence that both teacher certification
and some reform-oriented mathematics teaching practices correlate positively
with achievement and are more prevalent in public schools than in demographically
similar private schools. Additionally, smaller class size, more
prevalent in private schools, is significantly correlated with achievement.
http://www.classsizematters.org/wp-conte...

Sarahb,

There is a wealth of qualitative data that suggests that class size, per pupil expenditure, the fraction of teachers with no certification, and the % of teachers with an advanced degrees are not correlated with school effectiveness.

The teachers union would tell you differently, of course. There is 1 meta analysis that claims that reduced class "can" (not will) produce increased academic achievement as long as those classes are 20 kids or fewer. This size is not an option in JSD. Its an issue-but hiring the best teachers (and firing the worst) is the most important factor in delivering compulsory education.

Remember the union motto: last hired-fired fired.....

OMG...getting rid of the most important teacher in the building. What in the world are they thinking ?! Who needs help the most ? Obviously it's the administrators that need the most help because they can't think straight !

I agree with the previous post. Janesville has many schools that are not meeting the requirement of the No Child Left Behind law because of the way some of the sub-groups of the student population perform on standardized tests. Special education students are one of those groups, so of course their performance will improve with less special education teacher support. Good thinking, leaders of JSD.

Thank you for saying kids needing special education aren't worthy enough to invest in.

Cutting teachers isn't the answer. Cutting administrators is...or at least their wages. Most of them are overpaid starting with the superintendent.

I don't know how I feel about all of this. Some good, and so much unknown. I'm interested to see what you all think.