Tea billy?

Your postings over the course of these many months serves as plentiful evidence.

What? You starting to see that as a stupid lame excuse now too?

Liar, definition: person who tells falsehood

Example: RAF's post @7:26 - "Most of the postings of http://gazettextra.com/users/nomoreres/&...

Point out where most of my postings are lies.

Liar, definition: person who tells falsehood

Example: Most of the postings of http://gazettextra.com/users/nomoreres/

Synonyms: cheat, con artist, deceiver, deluder, dissimulator, equivocator, fabler, fabricator, fabulist, false witness, falsifier, fibber, maligner, misleader, perjurer, phony, prevaricator, promoter, storyteller, trickster.

There's that sound again.

You silly, silly flyboy, thinking everyone will jump to your wishes as you sit, lonely, in front of your computer screen waiting to lash out at the next person who dares to vary from your paradigms.
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Borrowing from Ross Perot from years ago and updating it to more accurately reflect today's situation: that huge sucking sound you hear, is it all the jobs leaving the state or is it RAF sucking on the taxpayers teat? And remember, his cohorts on the fringe don't believe it's ever his money if the taxpayer is paying for it.

Another typical liberal. Make claims they are unable to support then deflect away from the subject.

Either prove your claim or admit your lie. If you read a post of mine that said it, as you "claim" it should be easy for you.

Waiting............

Waiting............

Waiting............

Waiting............

Your criticism of public workers over the course of these many months serves as plentiful evidence (I refer you to your land of 10,000 posts). Now you can go ahead and twist that, too. Your inability to ever admit to anything, regardless of what you are presented with, is evidence that it wouldn't matter. No matter how you try to construe things, you are living off the government. And you have the gall to criticize public employees.

Point out where I critized an employee retiring after 30 years.

RAF, your weak attempt to try to justify your living off the government through your retirement just doesn't cut it. Is your justification that you still need to work after 20 years of service when you criticize public employees who retire after 30 or more years? That, like many of your comments, is very feeble. You are living off the government retirement fund. Based on your comments about your apparent disdain for public employees you must have a love-hate relationship with yourself. As always, you will try to justify this, but we know you for what you are. You simply can't have it both ways, even though you will attempt to.

Stubby I was responding to another posters claim.

So, RAF, please clarify for me....are Police, Firefighters and Teachers not all people with jobs? Yet you define them as "living off the government". I would save that description for those who do not work but receive a subsidy.

so says the liberal hypocrite "walter mitty" yada

Back to your name calling AGAIN RETIREDAIRFORCE - the REAL bully in you can be seen if others have different views.

Motornut your ignorant comments on this subject and others is a pattern displayed by many of the posters that follow the typical "I hate Walker" crowd.

In order to live off the government as you assume I do, why is it I still need to have a job? Why aren't you paying higher taxes so I can do exactly what you assume I already do? Typical of a left wing loon you have no idea what is real or not, instead you chose to walk through life thinking your ignorant assumptions are real. You are indeed a class act for the left wing fringe brigade, pat yourself on the back.

I noticed that the people who sent the flyer did not include THEIR OWN names, titles and salary. Teachers earn every penny they make, I wouldn't do that job for double their pay.

Back to the future for teachers: Ichabod Crane. Instead of paying teachers, communities in scooter's Wisconsin will offer them room and board with local residents.

Sadly gandalfs posts are all hate filled.

Walker is a foolish man with his war on teachers.
http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/articl...

kisfirst your same thought process could be used to to say all the protests in Madison were hate-filled. If there was something dishonest in the flyer, say so, and provide the details for it. Expecting all people to agree in these turbulent times is not a necessity, but to add to the rhetoric and then claim victimization from it is disingenuous.

vato re post on 5/17 : "In this context, public sector unions are anti-democratic. To permit a public entity to specially negotiate with a special interest group, behind closed doors, subverts the democratic process. Collective bargaining, striking, and mandatory collection of union dues by the employer, among other things, are all ways that public employee unions gain disproportionate political advantage at the expense of other groups." Every time JEA has held negotiations with the district, we have asked for open doors. The Board refuses to bargain openly. Strikes by teachers are illegal in WI. Try to get up to speed, please.

vata--we have a lot of people in this state who think they are living in Egypt. Denial is so rampant here that many people who read the data are baffled by right-wing positions.

retAF -- hate is a feeling. I read the flyer and felt that my profession in public schools was not only under attack, but hated. That is not an opinion, it is a feeling and it is real. The last year has been the absolute low in morale busting I have ever experienced. That flyer added pain to an already highly stressed situation. I know, I am a public educator who believes that every child deserves a chance to succeed, regardless of background or family income.

Just because you didn't like the flyer doesnt mean it was hate filled. Like I said, rhetoric.

This article says we should pay teachers more and in some cases more than their worth to keep them in the districts. According to past politicians people from all walks of life should appreciate working in Wisconsin because of the values and way of life being so great. They suggest this is worth more than just money. This apparently does not apply to teachers, public employees or farmers. Just look at what these groups get from the taxpayers and don't have beg for any of it like other citizens do.

" Nazi-like"
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Wow. There is just no way to have a ration discussion with people that express that type of rhetoric.

So, does anyone have a real solution that makes sense? Or, will you just repeat the same useless nonsense over and over and over? Stop blaming and complaining and start thinking on how to provide a wage and benefit that will not break the taxpayers back.

Vat, I am only speculating, but I think he meant to say you really have a problem with people who are indoctrinated. I tend to agree I think you do also.

According to an admission's person at UW-Whitewater, the day after the Act 10 rule went into effect, they had a waive of students come in and drop out of the Education Major. This ACT 10 law is going to have major impacts toward getting young smart motivated minds into this field. It will take years to refill the baby boomers leaving this field, and with out recruits, good luck!

NoLeftist said, "Healthcare we are 37th, way below Canada where infection rates are double U.S. rates. Please, that is such a joke. Nobody believes that, including U.S. residents who NEVER choose volutarily to get treated in Canada, and Canadians who routinely go the other way. Quack quack!"

The real joke, as seen with many defenders of the inferior United States healthcare system, is the inconsistency between what they do and what they say. Less than a month ago, you admitted to having experienced Canadian healthcare. You surely dont expect us to believe you had no choice in experiencing healthcare in six other countries. Quack, quack! (Anatidaephobia: the fear that a duck is watching you.)

NoLeftist said, "I have experienced healthcare in Chile, Mexico, France, Italay, Canada, and Scotland. Oh, and here in the U.S." April 24, 2012 at 1:33 p.m. [ http://gazettextra.com/news/2012/apr/19/... ]

Healthcare we are 37th, way below Canada where infection rates are double U.S. rates.

Please, that is such a joke. Nobody believes that, including U.S. residents who NEVER choose volutarily to get treated in Canada, and Canadians who routinely go the other way.

Quack quack! Like Ronnie said, it's not that you lefties don't know anything, it's that so much of what you know just isn't so.

Vat it is hysterical watching miss rhetoric and fearless try to keep up with all the paddling through through the same false tales while avoiding facts and meaningful dialogue.

And when I say people like you, I mean people that think they have the answer, but have very little to add other than ideological hatred.

The moment you go to "liberal" and union to start blaming teachers and people, you lose. Everytime you start to make a valid point your surfboard goes right into the ideological mindset that you have created.
Practicality?? Educating kids is practical, the direction they take it is their CHOICE!! Your definition of the real world is suspect at best. Very similar to your supposition that manufacturing in the US is dead. If it is so is this nation. We will never recover economically if that assertion is true. 300 million people in this nation all living in your "real world" funny how you get to set the bar on what that is. Last time I checked there are millions of different careers out there in the real world, so please cut the crap with that notion on your version of what you believe it to be and whose ideology is a part of it. That like moset of your assertions about what it takes to educate a society are almost completely unfonded generalized hogwash. Meant only to serve one master , the anti-union metality.
I have said it before it is people who think exactly like you is what makes teachers unions necessary.

you cannot have a discussion if you wish to just spout off at the mouth and blame unions for everything. Offer false solutions based in ridiculous notions. Like RAF you offer very little to the conversation.
You continue to champion a health care system lower in the world rankings and far more expensive , and yet when it comes to rankings in ed its the unions? Really? All youve got? We spend twice as much on HC than every other nation and are 37th. Yet education beiung more a state issue you wish to compare the US? Excuses? We have sorry arse parents in this nation for one. People who care less about their kids education and much more about having a free babysiutter for them.

I grow tired of this argument, you have no interest in improving education or seeing through the BS only bringing more of it to the forefront to make ridiculous straw man arguments. Set em up , knock em down. Over and over. I am done having this discussion with ideologues with narrow minded purpose on a very complex issue. Keep on hating unions vato, blame them for everything, whatever makes your clock tick. Maybe you and RAF should double up with wislady and rocochick for a beer, talk about a new list of labels to supplant the ones that are currentlty repeated. Outside of that youre just treading water here talking in circles and its getting tough. You hate teachers and education in AMerica. I happen to think they are wonderful people who in the most part do a FANTASTIC selfless job up for constant scrutiny in the public eye. To watch nincompoops criticize methods , who have no real ideas of what methods they use is again growing old. Spend some time in a classroom or two then tell me how its the unions. No more "stories" from random "friends". Spend a week in an inner city school and tell me the problem is a poor school or a teachers union. Maybe then you might have an idea of what the REAL problems we face are. Thats right thats when it is the democrats fault and poor people being on AFDC. The 60 hours a week isnt putting enough food on the table or paying rent , so they should starve or light a candle to do homework instead of accepting help?
Simple minds believe there are simple answers to very complex societal problems. Usuallly th thought process of a selfish greedy individual. exactly why giving control to communities over their schools is a bad idea. Giving control to Majorities over the rights of minorities is dangerous and will never work. Think your precious rankings are bad now? Just wait its getting worse in this republican controlled nightmare.

Is that a link to a cable TV company trying to support education? You have got to find better links vato, is tha cast of Jersey Shore coming to a school near you? Try to look a little harder next time.

If the southern states concentrated more on educating kids and les time building new Walmarts to employ them when they drop out of HS , maybe they could help the rest of the nations rankings, here in Wisconsin we are second to none in education. WHat would the nation rank if every state educated kids like we do here? Or at least like we used to?

shall we say the same for our 37th ranked corrupt healthcare system that you love so much? Ranked 37th in the world yet FAR and away the most expensive?

Back to education vato your numbers are littered with factors that I cannot explain to you that you would never understand , variables and factors that most of the others on your list dont deal with demographically , etc.... Trying to explain things to someone who doesnt want to hear them is like working with my 7 year old on quantum physics, hes just not ready.

""The vast majority of citizens in every community want their respective city/town to succeed including their schools""

That is a statement void of proof whatso ever!! Maybe thats your opinion. but it certainly isnt based in any kind of facts. Most people in their cities want their taxes lowered at any and all costs, why do you think the grat majorities of referendums fail? bThey buy the BS of the right wing lunatics like yourself and Vato that there is somehow a way to improve schools by spending less money to do so.
RAF you can use all the derrogatory terms you like , repeating them over and over sure isnt help you make any points. Redh ehrrings and sock puppets and fringe left , oh my! You truly live in the land of OZ and are hanging on to your last thread of sanity.
The growing number of older people in Society that just care about one thing and one thin only, LOWER my taxes. Thats it. If their kids are out of school what interest do they have in them? Your assumprtions define your position , regardless of the fringe on either side, you seem to now be speaking for the people in this community that continue to elect the likes of Board members like Bill Soda, and DuWayne Severson that want nothing else other than to make every effort to lower teachers salaries/benefits only to benefit the tax whiners that elected them. So please spare me the fringe rhetoric, its getting old. Can you even make a legit point anymore? Anytime I see your growing list of repeated labels I know your had on an issue and are reaching terribly. My friend poobah constantly shows your repetetive nature and it is getting worse by the post.

Of course there is a direct correlation between money spent per pupil and achievement! The lefties are showing links to such studies all the time. Hey guys, I've not been able to find any such study out on Google. Can you help me out? It must be information only available to you really smart liberals. Could you please let us in on the secret info?

"Sorry but the majority of people in these COMMUNITIES have a vested interest in screwing schools"
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Wow, this errant loony view from the left fringe is vacant of fact and reason; but full of fear and rhetoric. The vast majority of citizens in every community want their respective city/town to succeed including their schools. Thankfully many of these people know that it takes more than higher taxes to achieve education. The view that money fixes education and social issues has failed every time it was tried. The archaic view that without more money or by reducing spending education will fail is just unfounded. The only people echoing these claims, needing more money, are those with a financial interest in it occurring. The only thing more deceiving is the claim that those want to fix the issue just "hate".

comntrol to communities? Sorry but the majority of people in these COMMUNITIES have a vested interest in screwing schools, lower my taxes, thats all anyone cares about. Not changing education for the better. Saying our education system sucks puts the cherry on your ridiculous rhetorical cake. You hate unions, we get it. Unions for teachers exist for the very reasons you stated, because their salarie cannot be held hostage by people with political axes to grind. If people werent so quick all the time to blame teachers for their own shortcomings as families, and werent so quick to forget that they recieved a "free" public education when they were young so now its time for them to hold up the tradition of great schools and great public education for the next generation of kids. Now its all about what to cut, how we can cut more so they can pay less taxes. This is all about greed plain and simple. Not about quality of education, and certainly not about the future of this nation.

vatoloco, instead of blaming teachers for poor scholastic outcomes and thinking that holding their salaries hostage is going to increase scholastic achievement, why don't you work on getting at least one volunteer mentor/tutor for every student that is not performing to their potential and have those mentors/tutors work with those students and their families?

Or do you really think all of the problems with scholastic outcomes are based in the classroom, are the fault of the teacher alone and by holding teachers salary hostage is going to solve those issues external to the classroom?

Prt of living in a civilized society is paying taxes, sorry uncivilized tea party peopls,but thats a spoonful of reality for you.

And when we say compensation, it doesnt mean that you as a taxpayer are thier boss. It means they perform a service for which they are compensated for. Its not like they are just getting money for nothing and the chicks for free!

OK Bobby so your admitting that benefits are a part of earned compensation? Of course that is true. You said salary. Salary is what you take home. You are the master of semantics, not me.
BTW vato 17K a year in benefits means you have to be making 53 in salary to be at the 70k mark. So that means your a 12 year professional with a Masters degree, certainly far from anything close to a majority of the profession. I can make mor ethan that in IT with a few years experience fixing printers. So tell me again how misrepresented the poor, poor priivate sector is?? Think before you speak Eddie Gurrero, LATINO HEEEET!

NONE in Janesville. Salary AND benefits maybe, but not salary. Vato like beating up on teachers , I am here to be the Anti-Vato because he knows little about what actually takes place in a classroom. Lotsa hyperbole, very short on facts.

vato, who has promoted the idea of paying beginning teachers 70-80k now complains about any that make that salary. I'm sure there are some, but what percentage of teachers in WI do you think make 70k?

Made - "FACT: That's a lie. Union membership has always been a CHOICE for anyone working in a Union shop, privately owned or state/fed. government job; when hired you are given the choice to NOT belong, and NOT pay dues, but still get the representation. If you want to opt out of the Union after you are hired, you have that right as well. Walker's lies continue."

I would have liked to see you get a job down at GM when it was here, and thumb your nose at the UAW 95.

Ezoner, please read your words that I cut and pasted and see if you see the irony I do.

"nomoreres --- I love how you lefties label people as haters, bigots, racists -- anyone that doesnt subscribe to your belief systems of what is appropropriate gets a label"

Aside from that, I would have more respect for your position if you really felt that ALL should contribute fairly (meaning flat tax, no loopholes). When we see examples such as ABC paying no state income tax and billionaires denouncing their citizenship to avoid paying taxes I think you have to be a little goofy to think that the middle-class should have to pick up the tab. I guess that's where we differ. Now, back to that label irony, pretty funny, huh?

nomoreres --- I love how you lefties label people as haters, bigots, racists -- anyone that doesnt subscribe to your belief systems of what is appropropriate gets a label, Instead of looking for solutions, sharing the pain and contributions..... Get a math book out. Do the simple math... you could take 100% of what the millionaires make and wouldnt come close to balancing anything. Would not solve the problem. SO drop the wage cap to $500k, nope still dont get there. How about at $250k.... maybe, but now these are the employers -- they give the jobs that you say are so important. -- so -- that means less or no jobs.

Unfortunately -- the middle class as always and throughout history will absorb this -- period. I am in that middle class -- do I like it -- no -- but that is the only solution. Because the left will continue its freebees to the freeloaders. The millionaires are the job creators -- the middle class will get squeezed again.

go to school, it's really quite simple. They can blame someone else for their problems. The teachers (not themselves) are the reason for their kids not doing well. The teachers are far too well compensated (compared to themselves and must, therefore, be dragged down to their levels) while they worship the millionaires and billionaires who promise them the trickle down theory will soothe their pain (all the while not realizing what that yellow liquid is that's trickling down upon them). Nobody can deter this select group of haters. They must have an outlet for their venom and they now have a pied piper to lead them.

I still just can't wrap my mind around people wanting to punish the very people who watch their kids all day. Go to your kids school and watch what the teachers do all day.

TCB, I'm not sure where your info comes from. Are you saying that members of the teachers union sit on school boards? That would be a conflict of interest and I can't see any community putting up with that.
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I also don't know what state law you're refferring to that prevents a low ball insurance offer from a school board. I've seen some pretty drastic offers from boards in my time.
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Can you give an example of when the union response to a board offer was a law suit? In WI there is a mediation/arbitration process that happens if the 2 sides are not able to come together, but that rarely happens (although it did happen in Milton recently).
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Can you explain some of these tactics that local unions use to strong arm school boards?
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I don't know what's going on in Slinger, but my brother in law is a teacher in Waukesha and they went off of WEA insurance this year. He says the coverages are similar but deductables are higher which leads to more out of pocket cost for the teachers. Some teachers were worried that their current carrier was teasing the district with a low rate to reel them in and it turns out they may have been right - they just found out the premiums are going up 8.5% next year. I don't know if WEA raised rates this year or how much. He did say that his take home pay has not gone up in the last 4 years because any salary increases they had were eaten up by insurance costs increasing.

It is nice to have a civil discourse - something that doesn't happen often on these oards.

Stubby, don't forget that private schools pay their teachers about 1/2 to 2/3 what publics do (and the bennies aren't nearly as good either). With wages and bennies being 75-85% of the cost of education, that makes a huge difference also.

Vato - the more people talk about "accountability" for teachers and bases that accountability on test scores, the more you will see teachers teaching to the test. In my job, if I know I'm going to be evaluated based on using the elements of designer "a" then, by gosh, I'm going to do that whether I think it is best or not because I need to keep my job. As for "kill and drill", I think there is a place for repetitive practice. Ask any basketball player or golfer if repetitive practice helps them in their game. Of course it does. Certain academic skills also benefit - math and language come to mind first - from repetition and practice. Can this method be over-used? Of course. But as is so often the case, the absence of an over-used practice is not necessarily better than the over use that was the problem in the first place. A balanced approach is necessary in all things.

TCB - Ah, yes, the private school comparison. It is true that private schools get great results with far less spending...or so goes the conventional "wisdom". But let's look at a couple things: First - private schools are generally populated by children from families with very involved parents. I think we agree that this can be a huge factor in student success. Second - private schools are free from the mandates placed on public schools to provide a free and appropriate public education to all students - including some of those who cost upwards of $100,000 per year for a single student. When you cut out special needs and mandated programs, the costs do drop dramatically. I'm certainly not advocating not serving those with special needs, but it is fair to acknowledge that doing so is costly, and a cost that is not shared in private schools. Finally, I would point out that in Milwaukee, where they've had a voucher program, recent audits have shown that voucher students in private schools do no better (and sometimes worse) than their public-schooled counterparts. So I think we're back to parental involvement being the key factor.

Stubby,

I agree with you that per pupil funding is low on the totem pole of priorities. Parents first-and parents should have the choice to pull their child out of poorly performing schools and teachers who do not perform should be terminated-as should administrators.

But I disagree that the state has backed out of anything. Tough economic times call for tough decisions. You may not like them, the union certainly does not like them.

How do private schools fully fund their priorities? They do so much more with a lot less money$ -- must be the fact that parents can pull their kids out if the school is bad- or the kid is kicked out if he/she is a problem?

TCB - like I said - "a fools errand". Once again you are attempting to link funding to performance (or, in your case, lack of performance) and draw conclusions based on a false analogy. You are absolutely right when you find examples of schools that spend tons of money and still struggle to get results, and I'm sure you can find a few examples of frugal schools that do quite well, thank you. But to infer a causal relationship is completely incorrect. Look instead at other factors that may be influencing student performance. Look at parental involvement, poverty level, single-parent families (not a criticism of them, but it is harder for one parent than for two acting together), and all those other influences on student performance. So while throwing money at the problem is not the answer, there is no data to support that taking money away will make things better. A "fully funded" school (my own definition, so take it or leave it), is one where teachers aren't taking pay cuts, where there is sufficient staff to run innovative programs to assist students, where programs are growing and not always having to beg for money, and where the state does not back out of funding promises made in good faith.

Stubby-what is a fully funded school? All public schools are fully funded aren't they? I fully admit that some schools have more money than others-like families-but on balance-its not the level of comparative funding that determines school performance. If it were a major contributor to performance and outcomes-schools in DC, New York, LA, Chicago all would have high graduation rates and higher standardized tests scores-but the polar opposite is true. These school districts consistently spend more money per pupil than any other district and they consistently have low graduation rates and score poorly on standardized tests. And lets not forget despite the high dollars per pupil spend-the buildings are rotting from within-because of the districts/local leadership failure to deal with facilities....

Did you check out who authored the piece, bebe53? Thomas Mann and Norman Ornstein. Let me see you try to discredit them using something other than the tired old rhetoric with which you dismiss the Washington Post. Indeed, what they have written in their piece had pretty well forecast your style of response.

Let’s just say it: The Republicans are the problem. [ http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/l... ]

"We have been studying Washington politics and Congress for more than 40 years, and never have we seen them this dysfunctional. In our past writings, we have criticized both parties when we believed it was warranted. Today, however, we have no choice but to acknowledge that the core of the problem lies with the Republican Party.

The GOP has become an insurgent outlier in American politics. It is ideologically extreme; scornful of compromise; unmoved by conventional understanding of facts, evidence and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition.

When one party moves this far from the mainstream, it makes it nearly impossible for the political system to deal constructively with the country’s challenges."

I love all the conservatives SCREAMING how absurd it is to link unions to test scores.
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OK, then the next time, and there will be a next time, Janesville, WI or the USA have test results better than GREAT don't BLAME THE UNIONS.
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If you cannot give them credit they cannot receive the blame.

Trying to correlate union participation, ACT scores, cost per pupil and other data is a fools errand. Anyone who knows schools knows that there are just too many variables involved. The one thing that does influence school performance more than any other, though, is parental involvement. Money helps attract and retain good teachers (and some bad ones, but in what profession is that not true?), provides programs and facilities that create opportunities for kids, and allows every kid, not just the child of the wealthy, a chance to get ahead. But in the end, it is the parents that make the biggest difference. A good parent can get a student to do well in a bad, underfunded school, but good parent in a good, fully funded school can do even better. So quit wasting breath on trying to correlate generally unrelated data, and for that matter, quit acting like some job security is a bad thing. Job security means people are more willing to take risks - and make progress.

fear,

You asserted " why is it that states who do have CB have better numbers"

what numbers are better and what are you specifically comparing? graduation rates? ACT scores, % with college degrees? Rural vs city? Race? What grades?

Clearly you are not referring to $ spend per pupil as a barometer of success (or your term better) MPS spends 50% more per student than JSD and their "numbers" tell a sad story-would you prefer that JSD look more like MSP? How about New York, Detroit, Chicago, Miami, New Orleans, washingtn DC-schools where CB is rampant-and they spend 50-100% per child per class-is this better?

What specifically does CB offer to children? Unaccountability, status quo? What does it offer the employee? Career development ? No. Pay for performance? No. Tenure and life time employment? Yes.

C

http://www.wisconsinreporter.com/republi...

Paul Ryan speech for the conservatives at last weekend's convention.

Fear, your inability to convey a message without smear renders you insignificant to continue mature thoughts.

Yet Cali is far and away the most poplulous state in the union(pun intended) how can that be with such a mass exodus happening? Hysterics once again from a hater with nothing to contribute than hate speech and slogans.
If a business leaves to go to another state I have no probem with that , as long as theyre not getting tax briberies from politicians, that is NOT free-market economics. Its extortion and bribery. I will NeVeR patronize a business who too a welfare check from my state to come here at our expense.

Are there like 5 blacks and 3 Mexicans in Utah? I though they outlawed Minorities there? (sarcasm)

Fear, Gov Walker is doing exactly what we elected him to do. If you are looking for a dictator, visit the lengthy page on Prs. Obama's executive orders.
"U.S. Falls In World Education Rankings, Rated 'Average'"
Every year since Unions started running the schools and bad teachers were not fired. A child's education took a back seat to the teachers and the unions.
Gov. Walker is changing this in Wisconsin. If we are thinking about our future, we will be lucky enough to have him bring this law nationally.
Act 10 for the USA.

916- Tell me would you rather set up shop (your family) in a state like Alabama over NY or California? Your contention about hysterical "financial condition, certainly doesnt have people leaving those states in droves to move to Georgia now does it? So how bad is it, really? To me its just more hysterical rhetoric from the right that would have you believe that hard line conservatative politics is the way to heaven. Ask the people in Mississippi. The poorest and most conservative state in the union.

Really quick--Can't speak of Alabama--spent 2 or 3 days in birmingham--but it was an in and out work thing--not a bad city, but nothing memorable. Texas, Utah, Tennessee over NY--absolutely. TX--specifically Austin and San Antonio are probably some of my favorites. I also really liked Chattanooga. Gatlinburg on the edge of the Smoky Mountains was beautiful. With my personal experience, people who live in the south have a much more welcoming attitude that the NE part of the country. As far as CA goes, I love to visit, but I would never live there. My brothers seem quite happy living there though.......

Vato- MY problem with Act 10 and Walker is that he wants to dictate instead of actually govern. Its not like teachers can strike. You come to the table and say this is what we have, lets make a deal. Thats what his job is! They just dont want to even have to bargain, that is what bothers me!!
And again, why is it that states who do have CB have better numbers? Is it a coincidence? Its becaue states which have better environments for teachers have more kids willing to go into a less lucrative career so they can have something at the end. Who on Earth is going to spend 50-100k on a degree to be a teacher anymore? The dumbing down of our society scares me.

To think that higher pay/benefits and better standards on the job dont, things BARGAINED for is even farther reaching.
If you were a construction worker are you going to work for a company that offers higher pay and better insurance or one that pays you less and treats you worse? Common sense really.

Sorry 916 I have been to all the states mentioned as well, and would rather live in the first list than the second. Plus, stats are there for a reason. Low living standards, higher crime rates, high drug addiction rates, lower education rates adds up to me not ever wanting to raise my kids in the south. Not to mention the much higher rates of racism. Ill stay here and deal with the cold winters and better schools(for now).
Funny how all the states with CC dont have non existent crime rates isnt it?

Vato- 2011 ACT numbers have Wisconsin ranked 3rd!! Link:http://www.ohe.state.mn.us/mPg.cfm?pageID=1439
that is with 71% of kids taking it!!

The kids taking the much easier SAT (5%) of graduates were ranked 4th in the nation!!
Link:http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/detail/2010-sat-scores-by-state
Any questions?

+1 With your comment regarding Christie!
Walker along with the Republicans that support Walker don't like Wisconsin being referred to as a blue state either. We're doing a good job and getting that perception turned around:)

We disagree as far as a home is concerned. Half my family lives in IL the other half in CA--fun to visit, not to live. I have been to NY several times--negative on that one too. Your labeling/stereotyping some of the southern states is a demonstration of your ignorance. There are insanely beautiful cities in Tennessee, Utah, Kentucky, etc complete with well educated, well spoken people--Imagine that! I know it's hard to believe, but don't buy into the rhetoric and actually visit some of these places. Are there bad areas??--absolutely. Are there areas in Wisconsin that are just as bad??--absolutely........For someone that seems to be so anti-stereotyping and anti-rhetoric, you sure do engage in a lot of it......Lunch is over--gotta get back to work--Have a good day!

Of course NY is one of the highest populations which bring down the averages as well, but again, Vato context means nothing does it?

No Ezoner just a lot of very convenient coincidences in statistics that seem to line up. Easy there slum lord , dont you have an alchoholic to evict today?

What I like is Vato proving me correct! 69% of our kids are taking the ACT which is a Far tougher test and still in the top teir of performers!! To attend a 4 year school you must take an entrance exam. No question Wisconsins kids are among the best educated in the world for decades, that will no doubt be changing the way things are headed now.

916- Tell me would you rather set up shop (your family) in a state like Alabama over NY or California? Your contention about hysterical "financial condition, certainly doesnt have people leaving those states in droves to move to Georgia now does it? So how bad is it, really? To me its just more hysterical rhetoric from the right that would have you believe that hard line conservatative politics is the way to heaven. Ask the people in Mississippi. The poorest and most conservative state in the union.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb62fpsyh...

""Thia is America, our president should be American, not Muslim"

""I hate Obama", "Why?" ," First his name is Obama."" "So you hate him because hes black?", ""No hes not black , hes a half-breed, well hes black too""
And some of you people wonder why America as a WHOLE has bad education rankings??

Vato - not even close. 2010 data showed 69% of Wisconsin Seniors took the test. In 2007 it was 70%.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2...
http://www.cpec.ca.gov/StudentData/50Sta...
The blog you are referencing is using data from a study done in the 1990's! Better read your sources better.

Unions do not have a positive impact on our students and scores. There can be NO proven evidence and I would say it is to the contrary. Government and organized labor have had the single largest negative impact on education in this country and in the world in general. There are point in Vatos comments that ring true, however, are not stated clearly. Private schooling has proven and will continue to be the shining star, where teachers and students can be identified, rewarded and flourish based upon the abilities and hard work. Hard work, differentiation and excellence are nearly punished in todays government systems.

New Jersey is the Bluest of Blue? Chris Christie might not like that!!
I would rather live in ANY of the states that you just listed over the southern tier. STart at Arizona and go east.
NY, ILL, NJ, Cali, OR AZ Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Arkansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Iowa, Kentucky, WV, SC, Tennessee, etc, etc..... Where wages are low and educated people are non-existent.

I would say those bad "pockets" seem to all be south of the Mason-Dixon line, coinky dink again? Maybe you could talk to your conservative pals Vato. In the south we would like it v ery much if they would attempt to educate their kids like we do here in the north. Unfortunatley this civil war the south is winning. The war on dumbing down the nation to gain political power. Very soon we will be Walmart America, and all restaraunts will be Taco bell. Youll have to drive 900 miles for your Doritos Locos Tacos.

Fear....Wonderful news about the horrible effect of conservative policy has on a state......Trailer parks as far as the eye can see......huh?
Let's take a quick look at the liberal paradise that you envision....
A 2010 Forbes article listed the five states in the worst financial condition--Illinois, New York, Connecticut, California and New Jersey--all just happen to be among the bluest of blue states.
There's your liberal paradise......they promise to provide it, will tax the hell out of it's citizens--spend that and then some trying to make good on that promise, and in the end STILL have absolutely no way to pay for all of it!

Number of Public School Districts: There are 427 public school districts in Wisconsin.

Number of Public Schools: There are 2305 public schools in Wisconsin. ****

Number of Students Served in Public Schools: There are 873,750 public school students in Wisconsin. ****

Number of Teachers in Public Schools: There are 59,401 public school teachers in Wisconsin.****

Number of Charter Schools: There are 222 charter schools in Wisconsin.

Per Pupil Spending: Wisconsin spends $10,752 per pupil in public education. ****

Average Class Size: The average class size In Wisconsin is 14.3 students per 1 teacher. ****

% of Title I Schools: 61.5% of schools in Wisconsin are Title I Schools.****

% of Student Eligible for Free/Reduced Lunches: 33.5% of students in Wisconsin schools are eligible for free/reduced lunches.****

Ethnic/Racial Student Breakdown****

White: 76.3%

Black: 10.5%

Hispanic: 8.0%

Asian/Pacific Islander: 3.7%

American Indian/Alaskan Native: 1.5%

School Assessment Data

Graduation Rate: 89.6% of all students entering high school in Wisconsin graduate. **

ACT/SAT rank: 229.8 students per 1000 in Wisconsin had a score of 25+ on the ACT or a 1780+ on the SAT. ***

8th grade NAEP assessment scores:****

Math: 288 is the scaled score for 8th grade students in Wisconsin. The U.S. average was 282.

Reading: 266 is the scaled score for 8th grade students in Wisconsin. The U.S. average was 261.

% of Students Who Attend College after High School: 59.1% of students in Wisconsin go on to attend some level of college. ***

Refreshing, no mouse no kaysbrew.

4% really? So only 4% of Wisconsin kids go to college? Last I checked ACT/SAT is a college entrance exam. I would love to see where you get your numbers vato please do tell.
The SAT is a far easier test than the ACT which is the one most Wisconsin kids take.
so please Vato again, I would love to see where you took the 4%number from. You need to take one or the other to go to a four year college, so by your statitic(made up) only 4% of students take one or the other??

""In October 2011, 68.3 percent of 2011 high school graduates were enrolled in
colleges or universities, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today.
Recent high school graduates not enrolled in college in October 2011 were more
likely than enrolled graduates to be working or looking for work (68.7 percent
compared with 38.8 percent).""

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/hsgec.nr...

Have you ever noticed that when certain people feel threatened by the quantity of factual comments that are contrary to their fantasy world they suspect people of using more than one name to post comments?

Whythink is a teacher , or a retired one at least. I am a private businessman who is an independant contractor. One in the same? Shows how ristupulous bebe is. I just happen to support teachers and you hate them. I can see why because you bebe were failed terribly by the system. Maybe your parents should apologize to you for not helping you with your homework.

Whythink should be your name bebe, because you offer nothing to any discussion ever! I never agree with Vato, but at least he tries to make an argument. You are just a steaming pile of ....... and it never changes. You would be much happier to move your trailer to mississippi. Youd fit in better there, and probably be able to run for gov, as you would be the smartest person in the state!

More unfounded garbage vato, your statistics of course are cute to use, and you tie them directly to teachers all the time? Of course we havent seen lately here in Janesville that bad parents are as much to blame as teachers??
You are increasingly ignorant and very inflammatory in your criticism of teachers. More experienced, highly trained teachers are better than first tear teachers, fact, period, inarguable. While of course there are exceptions to every rule , this one offers very few exceptions. Exceptions you seem to onbly be able to offer up in hyperbolic garble. Again please provide some specific examples, other than "a friend told me" , or "I have seen this". Please, please , please. ANY teacher will tell you that the 2 most important factors in advancing their profession are furthering training , and EXPERIENCE. Just like any profession in any market. Unless you can offer up something other than this stat or that stat, I have to ignore your ignorance. If you would like some stats? Look at whythinks posts. Wisconsin ranks vey highly in all categories in US education and measures up against any country. Unfortunately we have a whole slew of southern states that think paying educators and educating kids should be secondary to unions etc... So the USA as a whole has to suffer statistically because about half of our country's politics does not care about educating kids. So spout off all of the national statistics you like, try context for a change instead of rhetoric.
Why are states like Mississippi, Louisiana, Arizona, Georgia etc lagging so far behind? Are they all right to work? Are they all staunchly conservative? Coinky dink? So if you cancel out teachers unions, make your state right to work , just by the statistics, you can expect, bad schools, low wages, and a dramatic increase in trailerparks and low living standards. Unfortunately the very conservative south is dragging this nation into the gutter. Hopefully we can learn by example.

whythink- Great posts!! Like I have said time and again. The more conservative the state's politics, the lowewr the ducation standards, the lower the wages, the lower the living standards. The statistics and facts point this out. Inarguable. Many of the conservative posters on this site are PRIME examples of failures in education. They regurgitate and repeat terms, slogans , and catch phrases over and over. This unfortunately combined with the travesty of Corporations United allows multi million dollar donors and companies to dictate the narratives in elections, and unfortunatley more and more people are buying in. These are the people that want to blame teachers ad public employees for the economic situation and not the private markets (housing/lending) for driving the economy into the ground. Sad, sad times.

TCB- Let us not forget that JEA is SLF funded. The insurance that the teachers in Janesville has saved the district MILLIONS of dollars over the years. This seems to go forgotten by soooo many on these boards and in this district. How else do you think the district has been able to accumulate a 25-30 million dollar fund 10 balance over the years? I know many on the board have forgotten about it. The evil teachers union has allowed the district to save HUGE amounts of money on this insurance plan!! They are able to take "insurance holidays" and bank the money into fund 10, at the same time they seem to be willing to let theis so-called budget hole allow mass layoffs of teachers in Janesville? Dispicable!!

To sum up:
Yes, Wisconsin has great schools, with great outcomes. Yes, states without teachers’ unions lag behind. Yes, that lag persists even when you control for demographic variables. Yes, that difference seems to rest less on the quantifiable resources that unions fight to bring to the classroom than on the professionalism, positive working environment, and effective school administration that unions foster.
And yes, Virginia, (and Texas, Georgia, and North and South Carolina) unions do work.
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Of the ten states in the US without teachers’ unions, only one — Virginia — had NAEP results above the national average, and four — Arizona, Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi — were in the bottom quintile. (One scholar, in fact, found that the states with the strongest teachers unions tended to out-perform states with weaker unions too.)
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From a couple different sources. People complaining about the performance of WI public schools have NO CLUE about where things may end up.
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BTW, WI is ranked 2, by some right-wing groups questioning the ranking... 13

Two other findings leap out from the Harvard Educational Review study.
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First, they concluded that Southern states’ poor academic performance could be explained almost entirely by that region’s lack of unionization, even when you didn’t take socioeconomic differences into account.
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And second, and to my mind far more interesting, they found that concrete improvements in the educational environment associated with teachers’ unions — lower class sizes, higher state spending on education, bigger teacher salaries — accounted for very little of the union/non-union variation. Teachers’ unions, in other words, don’t just help students by reducing class sizes or increasing educational spending. In their conclusion, they stated that
“other mechanism(s) (ie, better working conditions; greater worker autonomy, security, and dignity; improved administration; better training of teachers; greater levels of faculty professionalism) must be at work here.”

As I posted yesterday, the tweets going around comparing Wisconsin’s SAT/ACT scores to five states where teachers have no right to unionize are based on bad data — it’s not true that Wisconsin’s SAT/ACT ranking is second in the nation, and that Texas, Virginia, Georgia, North Carolina, and South Carolina are all clustered at the bottom of the pile. The chart that says otherwise is based on outdated statistics and improper statistical analysis.
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So what’s the truth? What would good data tell us about this question?
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Well, it turns out that that’s kind of a complicated question. I can answer it, but you’ll have to bear with me for more than 140 characters.
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It’s hard to measure SAT/ACT performance, because different numbers of students take the tests in every state, and comparing the strongest students from one state with a much bigger sample from another doesn’t tell us much that’s interesting. A 2000 study in the Harvard Educational Review, in fact, found that 85% of the difference in states’ performance on those tests is due to variation in participation rates.
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Having said that, though, it’s clear from the numbers in my last post that once you’ve controlled for participation Wisconsin remains near the top of the country on SAT/ACT scores, Virginia is near the middle, and the rest of the no-union states from the tweet are near the bottom. High school graduation rates — the subject of another popular Wisconsin tweet meme in recent days — tell a similar story. It’s not as dramatic as best vs. worst, but it’s still dramatic.

Only five states do not currently allow collective bargaining for educators.
 Those states and their SAT/ACT rankings are as follows:
South Carolina: 50
North Carolina: 49
Georgia: 48
Texas: 47
Virginia: 44

RAF, you wrote: I stated "For some state employees retirement plans are an option".

Maybe you couldn't read my statement that said you stated that "prouddem stated", not that you stated 99%. You've screwed up again and just can't admit it. That is about the only constant with you, your obvious belief that you are never wrong. So, I didn't say that you said 99%. Twist that and be sure you don't admit to your error.

nomoreres as is the usual case you're lost, again. I never wrote "99%", I corrected a person that did. I think if these blogs had pictures you might be able to keep up without getting lost, just a guess.

DTB,

Great post!

I agree with much of what you wrote-If coverage is the same and and total costs are lower-the school boards,often which are stacked with union members themselves-will vote to keep WEA insurance. Copays may shift cost from the union to the individual teacher-but but state law school boards cannot simply shop for a gutted plan vs a cadillac plan-simply for cost savings. If a school board does decide to shop insurance-the union response is to file a lawsuit-which costs money as well. There are plenty of tactics that the union employs to maintain its position as the provider of choice. The trend is not favorable-the WEA costs are significantly higher as witnessed in Waukesa, Slinger, and othe districts where the same identical coverage was purchased and the difference (I believe some not all) was given to teachers in the form of higher salaries (which is fine with me).

You are 100% accurate with your comment on transparency. The process often is not transparent and this is a problem-for both sides of the issue.

RAF, asked: "Sarah does that mean I got a pay cut when a gallon of gas increased as well?"

and later stated: prouddem stated " you are wrong! 99% of public employees are required by law to put into the retirement fund. They don't have an option to get out of it, so they are taking less money home."
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Ummm did you read what I wrote before you started typing? I stated "For some state employees retirement plans are an option". Exactly what part of that is wrong you proud dem?"

So, RAF, I guess you'll need to answer your own original question. Are you one of the 99%?
Even in your own twisted logic it would seem you are not part of the 99% and, therefore, didn't get a pay cut like the 99% did. Your logic, like your comments, it seems, are only applicable to 1%, at the most.

No2 not sure what to make of your comment first, the fact you finally are admitting something about yourself or just another of your many unoriginal postings.

You won't find my ideas under your bed, RAF. Look in my comment section. If you need help finding that, it's near the intersection of Lemming Lane and Troll Trail.

"McCarthy said money problems mean schools could have a hard time recruiting teachers in tech ed, science, technology, computers and math because people with those aptitudes could make more in the private sector."
>
Wait a minute! Are you telling me that intelligent young men and women who just finished spending $100K or more on an education aren't going to line up to take a job with a mediocre wage to start and the possibility to get endlessly screwed over their career in lieu of a private sector job!!? Huh, wonder who that will leave to take those jobs and educate our children? Well, rest assured Scooter and the Fitzy boys could care less because they can afford nothing but the best private school educations for their children, but they'll still need the "little people's" children who go to public schools to wait on them hand and foot as servants, so it's all good for them.

Posted below is the total list of all poobah's ideas and original postings.
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I Looked and couldn't find any...

prouddem stated " you are wrong! 99% of public employees are required by law to put into the retirement fund. They don't have an option to get out of it, so they are taking less money home."
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Ummm did you read what I wrote before you started typing? I stated "For some state employees retirement plans are an option". Exactly what part of that is wrong you proud dem?

Fox news facts? HA!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQCzWoZtb...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN_9oXi1o...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h172eAPdP...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1jB3Mk3Y...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttd7pxHeL...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rqdtZlec...

Watch Hannity get housed by A former Pro Wrestler!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZNKw_X_I...

Sykes?
http://illusorytenant.blogspot.com/2012/...

http://brewcitybrawler.typepad.com/brew_...

""...I see advanced degreed teachers do nothing different than a 1-2 year teacher with a four year degree in education""

Vato- where have you seen this ina catholic school? Certainly not in the public schools! Your lunacy on this issue continues. Just like any profession advanced training is better for the customers in this case students and families. Having an advanced degree and extra training ABSOLUTELY makes you a better teacher!!
Your contentions based on what you have "seen" seem quite mythical to me. All I SEE is total BS coming from you on this issue, one you obviously know little about and wish to just berate a proffession that you hate because they have union membership. Justr say that!! Any teacher who has been doing their job for 10-20-30 years will tell you if you actually listen to them when they were brand new teachers they knew NOTHING about the dynamics of the profession in their first ciouple years. But why listen to them, just follow Vatos not so "expert" opinion.

Ill put into terms maybe even you Vato can understand. Do you think a 2-3 year electrician is more qualified to fix a dangerous wiring issue in your home , or a 30 year master electrician? The older guy may cost 2-3 times as much but Ill sleep a whole lot better at night not worried about an electrical fire killing my family.
Like any profession the more experience and traingng(i.e Masters degree) they have the better they are at what they do!! You dont just show up at Grad school and they hand you an advanced dgree for showing up!! Your repetetive ramblings on something you know very little about are growing old! Qualify your statements , dont use the old Fox tool "Some people say" line as a way to back up nonense.

Fear@2:59 pm. So if a fact comes from Charlie Sykes or Fox news then it is no longer a fact?

And those economic elitists, the wealthy individuals we gave the huge tax rate cuts and tax breaks for taking their businesses overseas, lest you think they are the patriots amongst us, they are now renouncing their USA citizenship in record numbers to avoid taxes and crackdowns on tax evasion.

"Rich Americans renouncing US citizenship rose seven-fold since UBS whistle-blower Bradley Birkenfeld triggered a crackdown on tax evasion four years ago. About 1,780 expatriates gave up their nationality at US embassies last year, up from 235 in 2008, according to Andy Sundberg, secretary of Geneva's Overseas American Academy. The embassy in Bern, the Swiss capital, redeployed staff to clear a backlog as Americans queued to relinquish their passports." [ http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news... ]

"In 2011, billionaire Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin relinquished his U.S. citizenship and joined nearly 1,800 other Americans to do it last year — up from 235 in 2008." [ http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/201... ]

TCB - it's not that difficult to change insurance carriers, especially if the coverage is identical. Problem is, the coverage is never identical. I've been on WEA insurance as well as others, and there's a reason it's more expensive and that is because it's a great policy. It pays for almost everything with a low deductable. Call that a Cadillac plan if you want but teachers were willing to forgo pay increases to keep it, which apparently was OK with 65% of school boards - there's no Jedi mind tricks that give the local union power over the school board; in fact it's always the other way around since the school board holds the money. Less expensive plans are cheaper for a reason, they cover less and have higher copays and deductables. Don't you think if the plans were actually the same, the teachers would go for the less expensive in order to allow the district more money to bargain for salaries??
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My experience with negotiations was quite different. One district I taught in had open negotiations (meaning anyone was able to go and watch but only negotiators could speak; and that means anyone, teachers, community members, whoever). The board was uncomfortable with that so they demanded closed sessions and no one knew what what happening or discussed until the final draft of the contract came out and your vote was either yes or no. So much for transparency.

nomo,

Wisconsin govt is by the people-you simply create straw men to try to detract for your pseudo utopia. You don't like the fact that it takes millions of dollars to run a successful campaign. So you blame the "system" and ride your unicorn and complain that "life would be better if" scenarios.

In the adult world-life is what it is-in a civilized society like ours people win and lose elections freely. As I mentioned I "should" be taller-but I simply cannot close my eyes really tight and wish I was.

cratergrease said, "must be nice to have a starting wage of $35000 W/ a pension plan that you don't have to pay into Health care to boot"

Sounds like you're talking about America around the time Reagan was elected. Then he convinced about 1/2 of the population that they should cut tax rates on the wealthy from around 70% to 28% and let the wealthy keep their money. The wealthy would then create jobs and businesses; the money would trickle down to the middle class workers. They didn't tell anyone that the wealthy would be investing in overseas, multinational companies or lobbying for legislation that gave them more tax breaks for taking jobs overseas and importing their goods and outsourcing services.

And the sad thing is, there's still about 1/2 of the population that believes them. The economic elitists have spent billions of dollars convincing people that the secret lies in low tax rates on the wealthy, taking less pay, fewer benefits and two or three jobs to make ends meet while holding on for that trickle. The economic elitists have done a great job of dividing the "have nots" and letting them tear each other down as the income and wealth inequality gaps continue to grow. America is a cash cow for the economic elitists and they're now milking it dry as they move on to greener pastures.

crater, you have heard of Act 10, right? Time to move out of Mom's basement and into the real world.

must be nice to have a starting wage of $35000 W/ a pension plan that you don't have to pay into Health care to boot

My friends and I all have more than 35 years as classroom teachers. All of us are relieved that our children have chosen other careers. We loved teaching but do not see it as a path to the future. What we do is not respected by many. The time, money and effort we spent acquiring graduate credits will be worthless in terms of future salary. I cannot recommend this to anyone.

SarahB1

Obviously when you "looked at" the site, you forgot to READ the emails that Kris Barrett wrote.

TCB, it's not worth wasting any more time with you. It's like communicating with RAF. You're each in your own little world and want to define things as you are. But I will leave you with this final comment - WI government should be of, by and for the people of WI. If you have problems with that basic premise then just deal with it.

nomo,

I guess after reading and rereading and rereading your post-what you want is no money in campaigns. Is this an accurate representation of your belief?

Sorry Money = speech. Union pacs have a right, just as Soros or the guy who funded Newt gingrich to donate $ to candidates of their choice. If you don't like it-you can lobby to change it.

Again, if Walker raises money legally from outside channels why are you against it? What do you fear?

I don't fear unions spending millions to recall walker-the majority from out of state sources-Unions are corporations and they have a "right" to lobby.

Perhaps you want the constitution changed? is this what you mean by "should"? try to be specific.

nemes

I "should" be taller.

Should be doing what? Raising LEGAL campaign funds? A pathetic attempt to change the subject. Is it your opinion that people running for political office be bound to accept campaign donations from whom-specifically?

If you have the courage to answer the question-I look forward to your response.

TCB, I'm sorry you can't comprehend my response which was "Neither your guy or my guy should be doing it,". I would think that would be understandable for most, but you seem to be unable or unwilling to understand. Are you really that dense or do you simply choose to keep the insanity going? So which is it, are you unable or unwilling? Please have the courage to answer that question. And please don't restate my comments to fit your paradigms as you must realize by now that you have done..

http://mediatrackers.org/2012/05/14/excl...

More left hypocrisy.

DTB,

272 Wisconsin school districts carry WAE trust insurance. there are 427 districts state wide. SO about 65% -- a clear majority of districts pay for health insurance sold to the district by the teachers union.

I agree that the local contract do no force local school districts to carry WEA insurance-but they (WEAC) makes it very difficult to remove them-like a parasite.

The union likes to hold these negotiations in closed session-so that when competiting carriers come in and offer IDENTICAL coverage for lower costs-its up to the union to prove that the coverage is not identical. Switching has saved districts MILLIONS collectively - for example waukesha saved 2 million dropping the WEA trust plan. The coverage changes are seamless without loss of benefits-in other words-the promise from the union that its members will lay dying in the streets has not come true. Change is threatening to the union.

nemoreres,

I see you lack the courage to answer my question. let me restate your answer: It is bad that Scott Walker raises millions from out of state interests. It is good that Russ Feingold raises millions for out of state interests.

When your side wins-its okay when you lose-its bad. Got it. At least you are consistent in your whining. Well done.

"advanced degreed teachers do nothing different than a 1-2 year teacher"
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vato, if you believe that, you haven't been in classrooms and observed teachers.

poobah, thank you for capturing all of RAF's words of wisdom in one post. As amazing as he seems in individual posts, the collection just makes him seem all that more impressive. Are these quotes available on an album yet? I'm sure his quotes will be included in history books for years to come.

TCB, once again you, like so many before you, attempt to state what others may have done in the past as justification for what your "paid for politician" is currently doing. When will you get over this practice and recognize that none of it is acceptable. Neither your guy or my guy should be doing it, but people like you seem to be determined to perpetuate it. Remember, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is stupidity. If you believe this is OK then you are simply stupid.

"Most union contracts require using WEAC for health insurance"
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I call bs on that - care to back up the claim with any hard evidence? I don't think you'll be able to. And even if you could, contracts are (were) renegotiated every 2 years (in most cases) so school boards could have negotiated that out any time they wanted to.

Stubby its only a shell game if there is a ping png ball under one shell. Unfortunately there are nothing but empty shells here.

Retiredairforce, you are wrong! 99% of public employees are required by law to put into the retirement fund. They don't have an option to get out of it, so they are taking less money home.

Already hashed the post crescent article out. Anabslute propaganda headline. READ THE ARTICLE. The Headline is simply a bunch of hooey. If you read the article which no one who puts forth that type of garbled rhetoric could ever hope to, you would know that its BS. But to point out stuff like that who quotes MORONS like Sykes, and uses Mediatrakkkers as a legit news source? Ponintless. Try to understand that A very few teachers in that district will se an increase and they will more than lose that in HC and pension losses. 70% cut in pensions, HUGE increases in premiums and deductibles for all!! Unbelievable how stupid some are!!
Need to start actually reading articles instead of headlines. Therein lies the problem of most Fox news/ Charlie Sykes republicants doesnt it??

Neenah saves on health insurance
"NEENAH — Taxpayers will save $1.8 million annually under a new health insurance plan for school district employees adopted Tuesday by the Board of Education.
The board also raised the base salary for teachers to $40,500 — an 18 percent increase from the current base of $34,319 — effective July 1."

---

For the reader - what Wis"lady" leaves out are the following points:

A. The raise in base salary applies to a very small percentage of the work force. New hires benefit, but those making more than $40,500 are not getting a raise.
B. In fact, the majority of teachers face reductions of up to 10% in their take-home pay to accommodate the increased contributions to their benefits with no corresponding increase in salary, and
C. There are actually no "savings to the taxpayers" here. It is simply cost-shifting and taking the losses out of the teachers and programs. A shell game where teachers and schools wind up the big losers.

wislady May 14, 2012 at 1:54 p.m.Good Post.
As I read the article my thought was that Janesville does not live in a vacuum. There are countless stories like Neenah's around the state where under Act 10 the school district was able to negotiate a beter price for health insurance by not going with WEAC. Most union contracts require using WEAC for health insurance. With no competition WEAC charged whatever they wanted. In most districts that have saved on health insurance costs the amount saved covered everything including teacher raises.
http://www.wisconsinreporter.com/act-10-...

Neenah saves on health insurance

"NEENAH — Taxpayers will save $1.8 million annually under a new health insurance plan for school district employees adopted Tuesday by the Board of Education.

The board also raised the base salary for teachers to $40,500 — an 18 percent increase from the current base of $34,319 — effective July 1."

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/2012...

mteg, do you make more than your state average 37k? I hope so. And that was my point; with a higher level of education, you should be making a higher wage. Someone with a BA degree should be able to make more than min. wage and someone with a Master's should be able to make more than a BA. You ought to be able to realize some return for all that investment. Would you invest in a 401(k) if you were told that you would lose money in it over time?
.
Most teachers in this state (with a BA and no other teaching experience) start below that average wage. How many will invest the time and effort and money to earn a degree in education if they will never make more than that? Even those that really want to teach won't do it if they can't make a living at it. Sure, 30k is an OK starting pay, fine for a 25 year old who can live rather cheaply. But don't count on being able to buy a new car or a house or get married and have children on that wage, which will decrease in real dollars over time.

EXCLUSIVE: Tom Barrett’s Wife Used MPS Email To Lobby, Enlist Campaign Help

http://mediatrackers.org/2012/05/14/excl...

Madison editor, Paul Fanlund, should have read the Media Trackers article before he wrote his opinion piece today.

"In the final weeks, Tom Barrett should make it about integrity and ethics"

Read more: http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/ma...

The problem is ignorance in people posting that teachers are somehow dosconnected for their "Real World". See comment below this one.(mteg)

DTB, having a masters degree doesnt necessarly mean that you start off in a position at a higher rate. More often than not, education in conjunction with work experience, along with a good interview and negotiating are how you start. Education to be a teacher is nothing more than a BA or BS in education, plus an internship student teaching. Minor and or major in education could be something specialized. That being said, it is no different and or difficult than any other 4-year degree. Masters degree would be 2-3 years addtional education with a 70-100page disertation to sum up the coursework. Teaching is also on of the few jobs where pay increases were based on length of service and education (higher degrees directly correlated with higher wage) vs. results.

Stubby, my point was made to be radical. In the real world, the bottem 10% of producers can almost expect to lose a job at some point in their life. I'm not referring to someone that does quality work, but a littel below par. I'm refferng to teachers (such as the rubber room ones) that at somepoint fell to the wayside on both core values in teaching, work ethic, motivation, and discipline. Teachers that have been protected by the unions for years, that have probably caused more damage than good, ones that are there to collect a paycheck and could care less about inspiring a new generation. I say fire them, and bring on a fresh group of teachers that not only want to be there teaching, but also bring with a positive energy and high output of work. I'm a big fan of Jack Welsh's rating system-ABC
A-level employee's that adhere to the mission of the company and have high results
B-level employee's that adhere to the mission but might have lower results
c-level employee's that dont care about the mission and produce poor results.
In this system you fire c level employees because they don't really care or dont want to be there other than to collect a paycheck, induce negativity, and dont produce. B-level employees are coached to bring them up to A-level. If a teacher has to be protected by the union to keep their job...when a legitimate reason is there to fire them, there is a problem with the system.

poohbah: And I agree with your comment on Stubby, and am impressed with you fine records of name calling.

Stubby, I really appreciate your 12:45 p.m. comment. Well said.

Mteg - for the sake of our school and our children I hope your "opinion" never becomes fact. Fire 10-20% of the teachers annually and replace with new grads? All you are showing is how little you know the field of education. Bottom line is that you can't run a school like a business. In business you can control your raw materials to guarantee a quality product. In education you get what you get - even in "rich" districts. Imagine a carpenter being sent rotted boards and being told "you're the expert - make beautiful furniture, or else!" Now imagine getting a teen who's Mom just passed away, Dad is an alcoholic, and he has to work 6 hours a day to make sure his little brother gets fed...and expect him to care about measuring up on your test for the teacher's sake. Schools don't work like businesses, and they should never be expected to do so. School don't make profit - they create opportunities.

---

And, by the way, I didn't say education counts more than experience, or anything of the sort. I did say that the educational requirements and responsibility of the position merits a higher than "state average" salary. Or do you prefer to work in a society where everyone gets exactly the same wage regardless of their job? Do you think that the CEO and the line worker should be paid the same? The doctor and the orderly? Do you have any idea what it takes to become a teacher in Wisconsin? From the numbers you posted (which were lower than I expected for teachers), I think that teachers are vastly underpaid for what they do.

Add another RED HERRING to RetiredAirForce's list of name calling. Sock puppets, red herrings, trolls and lemmings! [ http://www.gazettextra.com/users/Retired... ]

May 14, 2012 at 7:43 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"nomoreres as typical when unable to debate the issues you take the tired liberal position of deflection and red herrings."

May 14, 2012 at 6:33 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"You have shown to be nothing more than a lemming."

May 13, 2012 at 9:43 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"poor troll" [...] "lemming"

May 13, 2012 at 9:39 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"troll this isn't a term paper."

May 11, 2012 at 8:07 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"More deflection and adding another red herring"

May 11, 2012 at 7:20 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"Just more deflection. Ignoring what I stated and comparing to red herrings."

May 5, 2012 at 9:06 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"everything you attemptes to provide till now was nothing more than red herrings."

May 8 at 5:12 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"Spoken like a true sock puppet"

May 8 at 3:37 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"spoken like a true sock puppet"

May 8 at 1:30 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"I suspect the faux posters and sock puppets will all vote for the fake republican...fakes stick together."

May 8 at 1:06 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"I suspect GoodAmerican is just another of the many sock puppets, put forth by a very incapable person to debate ideas based on facts."

May 8 at 1:02 a.m. by RetiredAirForce

"Nothing but a sock puppet"

May 7 at 11:38 p.m. by RetiredAirForce

"As a sock puppet you now have less credibility than mouse."

""Sodemann said he’d like to put money aside for bonuses to reward performance, although he’s not ready for a merit-pay system, yet.""

Hes talking like he is the one that sets the policy!! This guy is the worst part of the board! Ego check Bill!! That statement contradicts itself!! You want to reward high performers, BUT YOU are not ready for a merit-pay system! The day this clown leaves the Board will be a banner day for education in Janesville!! Would you please go live "In Your World" I contend that you only tay on the board because you think you are more important than you are. Please go run for city council. I still have no idea why this man even wants to be on thSchool board. Maybe because its the only office you can get elected to with 25% of the vote?

As a person indirectly involved in education in a school district, it amazes me how everyone not in a district know so little about pay and reimbursement. For m-teg: Professionals, with degrees that benefit their work, should be and are rewarded in the private and public sectors. Teachers are constantly being retrained in college and out. What is ridiculous about this is Scott Walker and the 2010 Legislative Repubs are willing to cannibalize Wisconsin education and public employees in the name of private sector growth. They have helped put more people out of work with his actions then anything.
This about politics and power, and less about a budget that was short, and funded by covering funds from the feds.

Vato as usual you seem to think all teachers want "the union" there to protect them. I can tell you that is wrong. The union is onlty there because there are certain folks that simply want to pay them as little as possible, while surrounding their true feelings about it with rhetoric about paying the good teachers more. A complete pile of crap. Take Sodemann for example, you think he cares about paying good teachers more? Guess what there i already a "fund" in the district that should go to keeping teachers etc... Its called fund 10 and it sits there with upwards of 25-30 million dollars in it. That fund was largely funded by the SAVINGS made by the district through the SELF-Funded health care that the hated JEA has set up!! So try not to believe Sodemann when he acts as if he want to give high performers more money. He is and always has wanted nothing more than to cut teacher pay, I honestly believe its the only reason he sits on the board. In a city where you need 20% to stay elected, he sits on his perch and acts important. I grow tired of the rhetoric. If the republicans on these boards or their politicians were truly concetrned about educating kids and rewarding teachers who perform highly It would be easir to listen to the whole act 10 nonsense. The fact remains this is nothing more about balancing budgets on the backs of them as opposed to the 70% of businesses who pay no state income taxes.
Republicans are only concerned about making education completely privatized. That in itself will be disasterous for the people with less money, but hey as long as you can have that extra carton of cigarettes. Never vote for your interests or your kids interests. Vote for greed.

""Anyone who thinks that quality educators are influenced by pay are mistaken.""
So a kid going through college accumulating MASSIVE debt is going to choose a profession that is constantly under attack by one side of a political aisle? Not to mention facing constant scrutiny from a certain group of people who dont want to pay taxes because their kids are grown up and moved out? Not to mention a very low ceiling on wages no matter how much initiative you take to advance your professional development? No sax it is you whom are mistaken.
I would also argue to your post that there are no teachers in the profession right now that are living in luxury. Is it too much to ask that they becompensated fairly enough to allow a middle class lifestyle that allow for decent benefits along with a decent retirement? Do teachers teach strictly for the money? NO!! But to act as if they should do it for free or that cutting wages benefits on a profession that we would like the brightest young people to pursue, so our future generations can be properly educated, is going to keep quality educators coming into the field, is ridiculous!!
Who on Earth will pursue a career in teaching now? 50k+ on an education for this?? A lot of rhetoric without consideration for factors based in Reality. Realitymeans student loans, especiallyu with rates soon to double??

I would think with that level of education, you should be able to land a job that pays better than minimum wage, don't you? If not, why else would you invest that much in yourself?
.
Who is going to invest a bachelor's and possible master's degree toward a profession where your starting salary will be the highest salary (in real dollars) that you'll ever make. And do you want people teaching your children that would go fo such a deal?
.
Now before I get blasted by saxcat for the audacity to suggest that teachers may wish to earn an actual wage for their knowledge and experience; realize that that for people who love what they do, money isn't a factor as long as they make enough to make a living. It's true that teachers will do what they do for 45K when they could earn twice that in other professions, but they still have to be able to make ends meet or they'll do something else. And that's the road Walker would have us be on because 5 and 10 years down the line, you won't be able to make a living at teaching.

So based on that rational DTB, since I have a bachalor's (2) Professional Certificates, my Inssurance License, and a Masters Degree, I should automatically make $50...$60....$70,000 based on my degrees?

On average, teachers will still make more than fast food workers...even after having to contribute 10% to thier benefits package.
.
Apples and oranges mteg.

Forgetting for a moment the differences in education required for the two careers, if you can't make an actual living at a profession, nobody will go into it. If mechanics couldn't afford to make a living at it, they'll become doctors and work on cars as a hobby. Is this what you want for education?

stout,

You should encourage your daughter to become a college professor-such as economics, finance, accounting, mathematics. Full profs teach 1 or 2 classes per semester-have summers off, are offered full tenure, and make a nice 6 figure salary. If she is native american-like Ward Churchill or Elizabeth Warren (well-they both claim to be Native american-but really are not) they can earn a lot of money. Warren earns 300K + per year-maybe Elizabeth Warren will share her magic beans with your daughter....

Or maybe she won't go to college and find a nice shovel ready job, one that pays a great liveable wage...then she won't have to suffer the humility of trying to educate unruly children nor will she be forced to pay union dues against her will...life is about choice.

I'm just putting it into perspective. Which is why I have the worlds smallest violin playing just for all the people that now have to contribute. So Stubby, based on your comment-education of an individual counts more than experience and results. It's not about paying them less, it's about having them contribute more (to something majority of individuals in WI already do). My personal solution to this would be to rank all teachers based on results (benchmarking teachers to comparable districts so as to not place unfair advantages between rich and poorer districts). Then I'd fire the bottem 10%-20% rubber room quality teachers (just like in corporate america), and bring on a fresh group of college graduates to fill the void.

Scrapgirl - the other way to look at it is the employer's total cost for an employee (a fair view because that is how the "raises" were calculated the past 18 years), and you'll see that the employer's costs have gone down for each employee about 8%. That, my friend, is a pay cut. The employee's paycheck is also down about 10%. So you can hide behind some semantics and call it "not a cut" , but you're fooling nobody.

--

MTEG - I WANT teachers to make more than "the general public". They are more educated and have much more responsibility than "the general public". Education should be a field that attracts good workers, not discourages them.

----

But it will all be a useless point in a few weeks. When the depth of the latest Wall Street fiasco becomes clear (JP Morgan Chase losing $2 billion is only the tip of the iceberg) we are due for another big collapse. God help us all then.

Case in point...Average teacher salary in WIsconsin is around $46,000. The average salary for workers in Wisconsin is around $37,000 (figures are pretty close to any site you google). Another thing to take into perspective is that the 10% (average of $4,600) is non-taxible, thus reducing a teachers taxible income. Just to clarify how this would translate on a paycheck calculate the takehome pay of $46,000=around $32,000-$33,000. After a reduction-$46k-$4,600=$29-$30,000. Average paycheck would be reduced between $75 and $150 (considering bi-weekly pay schedule). Compare this to average WI worker at $37,000-take home of $26,000....Average teacher is still going to be taking home $3-$4,000 more a year, or $100-$150 more a pay period. My caluclations were both based on 70/30 (70% takehome 30%tax, ss, medicare). We could further reduce a WI workers wage, considering that they already are already contributing 10%. Take $37,000-3700=33,300. Multiply that by 70%=23,310. Divide that by 27(number of pay periods) bringing their take home pay to around $863 vs. teachers $1074 (after 10% contribution).

I hope my daughter doesn't have to become a teacher just so she can avoid the teacher bashing. Nothing better than getting into a career that you will NEVER out earn inflation and have the same 10 Feduptaxpayers complain about how great you have it. Do you really think this profession will compete with others in 10 years? I have magic beans to sell you if you think so.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/21/wiscon...

On average, teachers will still make more than the general public...even after having to contribute 10% to thier benefits package.

nomoreres,

Clearly you don't have any issue with local politicians raising legal funds from out of state sources?

Or perhaps you have an issue with Republicans raising legal funds from out of state sources?

Im sure you commented on former US Senator Russ Feingolds prodigious ability to raise funds from California and New York? Or perhaps you believe that people running/elected for public office should not be allowed to accept campaign donations from outside their district or the state they represent?

No more gravy train for public employees.

I agree that the State Workers are not taking a "paycut". If their wages were docked and the money went back into the employers/State's hands, then yes...that would be a "paycut". The money instead is transferring and going into paying for THAT INDIVIDUAL'S pensions and insurance. I used to be a State Worker and reaping the benefits of an unheard of pension. Now the State Pension is similar to many plans out there, where the Employee contributes.

More of the same, from the fringe.

RAF, thank you for the deflection and red herring. Now could I have a little troll and lemming thrown in for good measure?

nomoreres as typical when unable to debate the issues you take the tired liberal position of deflection and red herrings.

It is very interesting that Turner district is used and an example in this article. A couple of years ago, they changed insurance carriers and due to the QEO most teachers received pay increase in excess of 10% (some as much as 17%). The raises were not newsworthy then, strange how a decrease in take home pay of less than 10% is newsworthy now.

RAF, the only issue I have understanding is your issue with logic. You are without a doubt the most twisted individual on these sites when it comes to logic. You make Fed up look like a class valedictorian. It must be wonderful living in RAF's world where you can make anything be the way you want it. There must be a spot for you as Walker's press secretary. Or are you already serving in that capacity?

Anyone who thinks that quality educators are influenced by pay are mistaken. Great teachers teach for the passion of learning. My brother is a college math professor. (age 31). He went into this profession because of his desire to educate. This is why many of us go into our professions. there are many car mechanics who could be doctors. but they like cars. I don't want people teaching my children, or yours, because of dollars. It is unfortunate that the current group of educators are seeing cutbacks. But for the better of the state as a whole, it is necessary. I believe, and I'm not alone, that this will increase the quality of educators.

nomoreres as normal you fail to understand the issues. For some state employees retirement plans are an option and all insurance is optional. The CHOICE for employees to PURCHASE these products is a decision they make. Just like a gallon of gas or a cup of coffee.

RAF, I think you are having trouble retaining information. Just last month I shared this example with you when you posted a similarly ridiculous statement:

"In breaking news .... the poster who recently stated that he had paid more for a cup of coffee and therefore felt he had taken a pay cut was seen filling his gas tank and paying less for his gas. This made him think he got a pay raise. While it may not seem to be an issue for most, he now thinks he has 2 jobs and isn't sure where to report to work. Hopefully the work schedules don't conflict. He is being advised by friends to stay home and not buy anything more as they don't think he can juggle any more jobs."

Please try to understand. When you are a customer you are not an employee and therefore don't receive a paycheck. Now reach into your fish bowl of retorts which include troll, sock puppet, red herring, etc. and sling another childish insult.

Sarah does that mean I got a pay cut when a gallon of gas increased as well?

TCB, give Scotty a chance to come up with something, he's been busy flying all over the country securing that out of state money he so detests. Don't worry, he'll make something up and all his supporters will love it.

verbal,

Under what law would you seek to impose your will on private business?

Salaries were cut due to Act 10 a year ago. The new rule doesn't cut salaries, but it makes sure there won't be raises.

If Wisconsin truly wants to be open for business we need to pass a law that will hold private seator wages to that of act 10. No wage increases for anyone in the state over the rate of inflation. That way we can insure no one will ever be better off then they are now with out changing jobs. I can't think of any employer that would not like this. Or supporter of Act 10. If thease are good measures for your neighbors, you would not mind living by them either. Right?

Rocky

The story is relevant as it shows the continual lies that the unions are trying to spread as facts.

Just because someone gets a service that requires a fee be paid, does not constitute a salary decrease.

Or, are you telling me that in addition to starting to PAY for things that most others do, teachers also had a pay cut?

Lewis said he hears the concerns from teachers, “and I tell them the best way to avoid the consequences of this rule and other anti-education, anti-teacher measures, is to recall the governor so these rules can be changed.”

Sure. Lewis should add that 10K per child per class simply is not enough money to educate children in 2012. A governor Barrett will change his title to King and simply require the tax payer pay more and teachers pay less of their own retirement and health insurance benefits--irrespective of the economy!

Lets hope Barrett will promise that rigid pay scales based solely on seniority and not on quality nor student achievement will "attract" the young people who are not drawn to teach today. Mr Lewis must not realize that unemployment is rampant -especially for new college graduates- but its very easy to promise something that Mr Lewis has no control over perhaps Mr barrett promised a return to the status quo if elected?

Wis"lady" is, once again, completely off the mark. Reading headlines only. The cuts mentioned in this article are not he ones mentioned in the email discussed at Politfact. These are real, already in effect, cuts to take home pay that have been in effect in most districts since September. Teachers should be worried, though. If Walker wins this election I fear for what comes next for schools.

This article, written by the spouse of a union teacher, reads like it was designed to rally support for a Walker recall. Hmmmm.

The salaries of Wisconsin’s best-educated public school teachers were "slashed" by Gov. Scott Walker through a recent administrative rule change.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/stat...

POLITIFACT rates this FALSE