I think some of you are missing the point. It is not having the dress code that is the problem, it is the extreme restricions. Collar shirts, certain types of materials, so much inseams...blah, blah. They have A LOT of time to make it so detailed and elabrate. Fine, give a dress code. Can it be code that is at least modern day?

"No one is above reproach, but to act as if you have a clue about the dynamics of a classroom and if a pair of jeans and a pair of dress slacks will make a difference in how kids are educated, then you are just ignorant. Plain and simple."

You are right- this is the stupidist comment I have ever heard.
Nobody said you had to wear dress pants. Khakis are legal. Just as comfortable as jeans!
I see why kids and adults think it is okay to dress like slobs in public. Why dress decent if teachers don't care to wear anything better than jeans to the classroom.
So every job has a dress code BUT teachers? why- again just a bunch a whiners as usual. You whine about EVERYTHING.

There IS an appropriate attire clause already there, making a four page descriptive list is a slap in the face. This is just another case of the school board (certain members) thinking they are above reproach.
Third_eye please show up at Wilson Elementary school in your dress slacks for a full day of teaching any grade K-3 and tell me how it works out for you.
The folks that keep repeating this "every place has a dress code" nonsense dont understand that there is already language and enforcement in place. The same group of people spitting out this nonsense have absolutely no clue of what its like teaching young children these days. Jusging by the groups of lunatics on these boards I can see why many of the kids in this community have so many problems.
Keep wasting time on this kind of NONSENSE, and dont focus on teachers. I heard this topic on a radio show this morning and the host had a pretty good description of Sodemann. I also noticed how embarassing this has beome for the district, state wide.
If the board is serious about this(they shouldnt be) they should allow the teachers to collaborate on the handbook. This board is a bunch o lunatics just making every little thing about political ideologies.
No one is above reproach, but to act as if you have a clue about the dynamics of a classroom and if a pair of jeans and a pair of dress slacks will make a difference in how kids are educated, then you are just ignorant. Plain and simple.

Does anyone else notice that the school board members that are pushing these time wasting issues, are GOP supporters? As a board, political party should not play a part in making decisions. However, the same few members, including the president, continue to try to stick it to the teachers over and over. They support Walker, so they sure the heck do NOT support teachers and education in my opinion.

The impression I get is the problem is in the language of the proposal. Once it is written in a handbook retracting things would be difficult. Some of the requirements are, collard shirts, skirts of modest length (who decides what is modest)shorts with 5 inch inseams, and at least 3 pockets. No capris unless they are part of a suit (but shorts are ok) tatoos are questionable, and the list goes on. So at what point does it stop. Teachers were qualified enough to be hired, now let them teach. Appropriate Attire(as it states now)is all that is needed. The rest is overkill.

This is just a power trip by the school board to let the teachers union know they have the power now. Sodemann needs to quit puffing his chest out and acting like a child.

"fearandrhetoric4dummies
Nov 15, 2012 at 11:15 p.m.
Suggest removal

To the people who say "whats the big deal, quit the whining"
The big deal is the teachers know this board and its makeup, this is simply a slap in the face, thats the big deal."

NO it is not a big deal to have a Dress Code and list what is acceptable or not.
EVERY place I have worked has had a section in the Manual that states the dress code. Flip flops are listed frequently as a NO NO.
This is a job like every other job.
STOP whining like usual and let then write their code and just FOLLOW it.
If most dress like they should( as stated many times) then there will be no issues now will there???

"fearandrhetoric4dummies
Nov 15, 2012 at 11:15 p.m.
Suggest removal

To the people who say "whats the big deal, quit the whining"
The big deal is the teachers know this board and its makeup, this is simply a slap in the face, thats the big deal."

NO it is not a big deal to have a Dress Code and list what is acceptable or not.
EVERY place I have worked has had a section in the Manual that states the dress code. Flip flops are listed frequently as a NO NO.
This is a job like every other job.
STOP whining like usual and let then write their code and just FOLLOW it.
If most dress like they should( as stated many times) then there will be no issues now will there???

AAARRRRRRRRrrrrr!

I think they should all dress as pirates.

I take back my comment. If the teachers are hot then im cool with them dressing slutty. If they are over weight then they should stick to turtle necks and sweaters. Not heavy sweaters though. We dont need the nasties stinking too.

This noise against a teacher dress code is petty and unsubstantiated. Studies show that people who dress more professionally act more professionally. This is the reason that some schools/districts move to uniforms for students, it levels the field between the haves and the have nots while at the same time raising expectations on behaviors and performance. I've visited schools that require this of staff as well as students and while there are likely other contributing factors (like discussions with students to engage them in a true understanding of morals, tolerance, and expected behaviors) it is evident from state school scores that business casual dress contributes to improvements in education.

A lesson I learned from my kids is that they put up a stink because they don't want to put forth the necessary effort to do what I'd asked of them. Eventually they would cave as I persisted and later when asked about their tirade they admit it was overkill and that they were simply being lazy.

If we don't support this change what's next pajamas and slippers in the classroom? Honestly how do you think that would impact education?

To summarize fearandrhetorics multiple posts:
This whole uproar by the teachers over a dress code further illuminates their la-la land workplace which they have convinced themselves is above reproach.

Roofrack - nomination for worst comment of the year. Congratulations.

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Back on topic.....I really have no problem with asking people to dress professionally as is appropriate for their job. Really - that sentence is the only dress code that is needed. If you want to add "business casual" in there somewhere, then fine, but remember that wouldn't be appropriate for shop or PE teachers. Defining whether a shirt needs a collar or specifying the length of a skirt is micromanagement and is an indication of management that is overly controlling. I won't even go into psych profile of a manager that needs a 3 page dress code.

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Really, this isn't about how teachers dress. 99% of them probably dress just fine on any given day. Any decent manager can deal with that 1% on an individual basis. This is about control. This is about the Board feeling a lack of control and overreaching to compensate. The Board needs to seek balance if they want to provide Janesville teachers with a positive work environment. This is not balance.

They have all summer to dress how they want.

To the people who say "whats the big deal, quit the whining"
The big deal is the teachers know this board and its makeup, this is simply a slap in the face, thats the big deal.

Vnvet- are you aware that test scores in Janesville are HIGHER than the state averages , DESPITE the incredible rise in poverty here? I think that is a phenomenal accomplishment. Janesville teachers are doing a fine job with an ever increasingly divers and poor population. They should be rewarded not ridiculed and lamented by a few partisans on the board who really think they are the "employes" of the teachers.

Time to change how we elect these people, so we can get an idea of their individual values and the rEAL reasons why people run for the board. Instead of the muddled mess we have now.
I have gone back and forth with a certain member of the board about this issue, and he wants it to remain that way, why? Because there is NO WAY he would get re-elected in a one on one race in Janesville, and he knows it. As a whole Janesville is a town that wants to reasonably fund its schools, and would not vote for these people in a one on one race. Lets get this changed. If they can win their seats based on a focused race on their values, so be it, if not go run for city council. Honestly thats where folks like these belong anyway, not on a school board where their main goal is to assert some imagined power over teachers and to defund public education.

What is a first grader "learning" from a modest skirt length and a collared shirt? Anyone?
I am for common sense, thats it. Common sense exists , believe it or not. Administrators are in place and will enforce common sense rules, which they are.
Ill tell you people what, if you can point out substatiated(confirmed) cases of mass amounts of teachers(more than 10) coming to school dressed scantily clad, like dirty hippies, etc, etc... Ill cahnge my posts. And BTW by confirmed I dont , Mean the Fox new type of confirmed, meaning the "some people say" line , or ,"Some people I know", line..
Stop wasting time, or if you want to waste time let the people of this city know when you want to get down with IMPORTANT ISSUES, not ideological talking points based on partisan politics and the "Leave it to Beaver" version of America that you seem to percieve.

Another one that I just dont get whay people think a school is like an office? The point of elementary schools being a dirty place to work is absolutely TRUE!! Wear your expensive dress clothes around finger paints, crayons, markers, etc, etc. You are the people that think evey place no matter the environment should be a high stress , worry about your job all the time, private sector office. Again you need to get over yourselves and your misperception of the world.

heres the problem , there is no problem!! There are people to enforce it(principals) BUT AGAIN there is no problem.
With all due respect Third-EYE and others who trhink this is necessary, what does this do to better educate kids? NOTHING. Epic FAIL to answer that question. Show me some evidence that dress codes for educators and kids for that matter result in better education, I will be in. The FACTS however do not back that up. Wisconsin public school teachers outperform their counterparts in private schools on almost every level.
Another misconception here , the school board IS NOT the employer of the teachers. WRONG!! We pay taxes, YES! We the taxpayers are not the employers of the teachers. Why do so many people have trouble accepting that? Every career is not a private organization with an "employer" per say. Everyone has someone to answer to, but taxpayers and/or the school board ARE NOT the employers of the schools, period. Anything else being said along those lines is just not a very intelligent point. The school board controlls purse striungs, NOT curriculum, not methods, why?? Because they have no clue what it takes! They are not teachers, they are not qualified to make those types of decisions, nor should they. It would be like telling an electrician to fix your toilet.

4 PAGES LONG! Sounds like the board is a fan of big government. Vetting every step of the handbook through the public and media -so much for leadership. Murray has the best idea - shelve it. Or better yet, toss it in the trash.

Third Eye -- the draft of the dress code is four pages long. There may not have been a quote of four pages. I have a copy. It is four pages long.

Any dress code is only as good as the enforcement. Will this really change how teachers dress? I think not.

What a useless waste of time. Aren't there more pressing issues facing the board and the JSD than what the teachers are wearing? A good teacher is a good teacher. I wish the board and the administration would stop the public beat-down and take care of business, like how are you going to attract and retain the best and brightest? Not by insulting their intelligence. Enough already.

omg- some more city issues we need to bring in the rocket scientists.

It sounds like the district already has dress code standards in place, what they are lacking in someplace is someone to enforce it. The school board rewriting or making a more detailed dress code will not address the problem of enforcement. I am sure many people who have worked in the private sector know that a well written employee handbook is only as effective as the manager or supervisor whose job it is to enforce it.

Third_eye - Trust me when when I tell you we had no employee hand book and it was a fortune 100 company. I started in 1960. The other two called me & asked me to manage their people here in Wis. One was from Fl. & one was from Tx. I never saw an employee hand book. I met the President of the Fl. Company once in Atlanta. Never met anyone from Tx. face to face. It's a big world out there. Not everyone is locked down and watched, like children in today's world.

Wasp, Fear, and MH.
I don't know where the "three page" quote came from MH, but not from me. Most 'dress codes' are addressed in an Employee Handbook in a page or page and a half.
Every employer has an employee handbook for their own protection, ask an attorney if you doubt this. In that employee handbook is a dress code. It may say Guidelines for Attire or some similar 'kind and gentle' title, but it's there.
Wasp, That employee handbook that HR handed you early on in your employment with that fortune 500 company, you know the one you threw in a desk drawer or briefcase and forgot about, had a dress code. I have worked for 2 Fortune 500 companies, Verizon and Ryder Systems Inc.. Both had handbooks, both had attire guidelines.

How about a reasonable dress code for BOTH teachers AND students!

After all, most employers have some expectation of proper dress (and those that don't seem to be rather scarce lately!). Stop at you local Culver's to see what successful workplace expectations are if you have doubts! Getting people in the workforce seems to be a proper roll for our schools in this age. Why should teachers not set a professional example and students not follow reasonable guidelines?

Granted teachers have a difficult job to do. I wouldn't want it, but others do. They also have a responsibility to set an example - like it or not, it is a "role-model" type of job. They should not look like (non-existent) auto assembly line workers, the landscaping crew, rock band roadies or hip-hop video extras.

It wasn't that long ago that school maintenance staff had a uniform and looked the part they played. Why shouldn't administrators, teachers, and students?

And the test scores were ....... Oh brother !

Really, Third eye? Is it a normal thing to give workers "3 pages of dress code list" including "modest length skirt" or "5 inches inseam shorts" and on and on and on in this free country in 2012? I never received "3 pages of dress code list" from any of my bosses in my life.I don't think I received "a page" of dress code list even. I had to wear a uniform a few times, that's it. Also the board ignores the fact that there are deterrences what they do between "a kindergarten teacher" and "a high school choir teacher". Elementary school teachers are dealing with paints,crayons,glue and oh yes, spilled milk and wet pants everyday. Do you want your kindergarten teacher to dress up with nice khaki pants and a nice blouse to work with your kid? That would make me feel like that teacher is not interested in going down to kid's eye level and do fun things with kids for me.
Plus, teachers ARE dressing fine anyways.

I think the petulant children may be on the school board.

What is the big deal? If it is not needed as some say, you won't even notice implementation. Whining about it makes you look like children. The boss says dress code, you abide by it. That's pretty easy.

I often wonder what kind of companies some of you folks have to work for? I spent 35 years at a fortune 100 company, both as an hourly and later as a management employee and never had a dress code, we were treated as adults. After I retired I worked in a management position for two other companies, and they had no dress code. I think that when we get a couple of conservatives like Destefano & Sodeman with unrestricted power, we get a good insight to what they are really about. They really like unrestricted authority, power & conformity.

I had a math teacher at Edison then she went to Craig, Brunette drove a vette wore shirt skirts and tight sheer blouses , i think i failed math cause i couldnt hear a word she was saying ! this was 77 to 81 about . I wouldnt say it was inappropriate attire . But i didnt learn much math in her class . No one else seemed to mind how she dressed lol .

I had some friends call me today. I guess word travels quickly. Hundreds of miles for that matter about the Janesville dress code. One of them sells insurance just like Mr. Distefano and his company told the employees to "dress for your day." If you know you are having an important meeting, dress appropriately for the meeting. Otherwise, they are encouraged to wear jeans and more comfortable clothing. He stated they are moving to a more casual approach to their dress code. Maybe the board needs to call other bigger companies and not just those in Janesville.

Blah, blah, blah. No offense third eye, but in case you havent noticed schools arent a corporate environment. So your rants are really poiintless. You are aware that there are Administrators in place to handle these things, right? You are aware that there are no teachers that act like third graders and say things like, " He gets to why cant I?" another non existent problem. No one is above reproach, sometimes people deserve respect that adults deserve, not to be treated like third graders, which is apparantly the environment at your office, certainly not in schools.Maybe it is you that need to get over yourself.

Again addressing problems that dont exist seems to be par for the course for some lately. What does coming up with alist of acceptible clothes for people to wear have to do with educating kids?Nothing! What does the school district pay administrators good salaries for? Where are stories of teachers dressing like dirty hippies at school? Has there been any people in Janesville complaining to the board about the appearance of teachers? What is the difference between a collared shirt and say a nice sweater? I dont want teachers wearing crappy clothes to schol, but I certainly dont want a school to project like an office, to elementary school kids?
If you want to create a dres code so badly because," I have never worked anywhere without a dress code" maybe it is you that is acting more like a child. Believe it or not I think a teacher can be just as effective, maybe more so if they can come to work, ONCE IN A WHILE, in jeans and a casual sweatshirt. Will that affect the ability of a teacher to be effective, does that reflect how important their job is to them, will that affect how children learn? Maybe you should focus on whats important at school? Dressing cleanly and non-offensively may be important, outside that, ITS NOT A FREAKING OFFICE. Get over yourself. If you are not an old ornry person, you certainly act like one. Try FOCUSING ON WHATS IMPORTANT, can you? Or are you more concerned with pants suits?

To be more succinct.
I'm sick and tired of the teachers belly-aching over every change to their self vaunted profession. Lot's of people take work home. Lots of people go in early and stay late, sometimes off the clock. Lots of people work just as hard and even harder than teachers.
Lots of people do all this for sub standard pay. Lots of professions add as much and more to the social fabric as teachers.
Just get over yourselves!

As I have stated before, I have never worked anywhere without a dress code. Most companies have a dress code for office workers, supervisors, management, and top executives. Yes! even the "smart professionals."
Instead of wringing their hands as if the teaching profession is exempt from the rules everyone else lives by the School Board should obtain the dress codes from several local employers and adapt their own code from them.
Instead they embark on a project to reinvent the wheel.
The reason for a dress code (and other similar rules) is so that all employees are on the same page, including executives. It prevents the "why does he/she get to...." confrontations that are caused by undefined rules.
This whole uproar by the teachers over a dress code further illuminates their la-la land workplace which they have convinced themselves is above reproach.

Just wait "rocksolid" will be here soon.....anxiously awaiting his defense of his 1950's approach to a problem that doesn't exist, or maybe more importantly already is by the people whose jobs it is to control such things, PRINCIPALS, ADMINISTRATORS.
Maybe the preudent thing would to be to negotiate a contract since ACT 10 has been held up? I know that doesnt work for the conservatives on the board, but I would guess if you left the Insurance as is when it comes to coverage, and just ask for higher premium contributions and pension contributions Ill bet youd be shocked how quicky you could have peace. Unfortunately certain Board members have a personal vendetta to hold on to and ill place partisan politics above whats best for the kids AND teachers. Budget holes can be solved without taking too drastic of measures, the things I dont understand is the refusal of the board(certain members) to take the teachers input on the handbook? Again, non-educators making decisions about a profession they really have no clue about. Maybe Sodemann or Distefano should take some time and volunteer at Wilson Elementary school (96% poverty rate) and then tell the teachers about collared shirts and how they should do their jobs. You can see the blatant disrespect by these people and their actions. Condescention is NOT the way to treat our most important public servants, UNION or no UNION. Its called RESPECT. I am all for solving the fiscal challenges the district faces, not at the expense of mass disrespect of these PROFESSIONALS. Negotiate come to a fair deal for all. Dress codes and pay for parking have little to do with this.
I wonder if most people in this community know how many millions of dollars the JEA's self-funded insurance has saved the tax-payers? Maybe THAT is what should be discussed, instead of Unicorns and Leprechauns (non-existent) maybe we should be having discussions about real problems, PLEASE?

wislady is correct. This is a pointless attempt by the board to assert power over the teachers, nothing more. Building administrators are there to enforce this already, and they will adhere to what they think is appropriate for their buildings, not some mythical power any of these board members thinks it has over them. Anyone surprised of the board members who defended this preposterous bunch of garbage? Not me.
Is it out of line to ask teachers to dress like professionals? NO!! To create some rule to address a problem that is non-existent seems to be fodder for these people. Principals will continue to use their own judgement, regardless of the "code" put in place. Because there is no problem here. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EDUCATING KIDS!! This is precisely why we need to change how we elect school board members in Janesville, these kind of beliefs could be brought forward in a race that is more focused on the individual candidates.
Maybe the board could start worrying about what is best for the kids, not collared shirts? This is beginning to gain traction in the statewide news, and once again Janesville is a laughing stock, so thanks guys way to accomplish NOTHING. This is what happens when you have people that know NOTHING of educating children making decisions like these. Being a local business owner doesn't qualify you to make educational decisions.
Here is what we have been seeing from the board, pay for parking, and dress codes?? That is going to get test scores up, right? I am sure the money that you could scrape up some money from some parking fees right? The board has become a joke.

I want the paid job invented for the fashion police! Maybe I can get benifits and a spending allowance. I will have to buy new clothes to wreck by getting marker and paint on them or getting torn. Standing outside at recess should be fun!

I guess you're right wislady and he must be ever so much smarter than those who taught him.

The "smart, professionals" need someone to tell them how to dress appropriately?

No Mr. Distefano- Common sense is respecting the already appropriately dressed staff. Common sense is NOT looking for a problem that doesn't exist.