Why are people bringing private universities into the discussion? Wisconsin does not have a law that states you must go on to higher education. Wisconsin does have a law that states you must go K through 12.

Fear -- You are not listening -- If a taxpayer must fully fund the private school -- then there uis no choice. If there is no choice then we should ban private schools and universities. This is in the interest of equality and providing the same access to education by all. Its the same basic arguement you use over and over. SOmehow you change the arguement when you do not want to use it.

Its simple-- Either you are for equal access or not. If you are unwilling to allow vouchers yet want to allow private schools then you are against offering equal access. Only the wealthy will then be allowed access to a private school, only the elite. If you allow vouchers, then you are allowing a greater number of people access to seek the education and value where they see it.

So either you stand for closing private schools and universities or you stand to allow access to a greater number of people through vouchers, by your tone, I can only assume that you want to close or have the government take over all private schools and universities.

The delusion the left has is the money aspect. If a student leaves a school money is then reduced for that school, no matter where that student goes. The opposition is giving more opportunities for these students to leave...because of jobs not defunding the education system because the money is for the students not the "system".

Ezoner-Your problem is you are under the illusion that there is no choice. If your choose to send your kids to private scools, go ahead, not on the public dollars. You also have the CHOICE to attend PUBLIC or PRIVATE universities. No one has to go to any school after High school. Dont present false choices.
The voucher system is not a success for more than half of the 16% percent of the Milwaukee students it affects. i ask you again what about the schools,teachers and most importantly the 84% of the student body that get no vouchers, they dont win the lottery. What about them and their choices??

Ezoner - re: "my tax dollars". So if I want "my" social security tax dollars to only be spent on certain things, I should be able to regulate that? the shoe is always on the other foot when you are the recipient of entitlements rather than the payer, isn't it? But as we all are eventually both recipient and payer for most tax dollars eventually, we all share a load. So claiming certain dollars as "mine" is foolish, at best.

---

Regarding voucher programs being "better for kids" - the studies are less than supportive of that position. http://lawreview.byu.edu/archives/2008/2...
The BYU Law study (very conservative source) concludes that only about half the voucher programs showed any improvement in student scores and those that did were generally not statistically significant. It advised that generalization of even these modest results to a larger population (not just economically disadvantaged) would not be appropriate and that even those minimal gains may not be reflected in future studies.

----

In 2011-12, data show that statewide students 42% of students testing "proficient" or "advanced" in reading and 48% in mathematics. Milwaukee voucher schools showed 9.7% and 10.9%, respectively.

http://oea.dpi.wi.gov/files/oea/pdf/MPCP...

Not very impressive. If most schools are considered doing "poorly" at the state average, how would you classify those with 1/4 of the success rate compared to the state average? Bottom line - voucher schools are failing - and robbing taxpayers.

Fear -- The problem is you want to force a single system onto all....I believe that choice is the key to a better system overall. Removing the exclusivity of private education and the barrier of the finances. You choose to ignore that barrier because it doesnt meet your socialitic approach of ALL. What does all mean anyway -- right now all means the rich have a choice and the rest do not. Vouchers opens the door to provide ALL a possibility of choice to a greater degree. I would think you would support that, unless you are driven by some ideology that restricts your vision.

So -- forced public system or choice. If you indeed support a public system, all private schools should be closed immediately. ALL should be forced into the public system.

Either that -- or you should be open to vouchers to a greater number access to a private system.

In the end -- which would you select? We should not have both private and public for anyone -- as this is in direct conflict with you basis. All private universities would be taken over by the government, all private schools would be taken over as well. I believe thats what you are advocatig. If not -- you would surely see the advantage of the voucher system to allow greater access.

Wow too bad your idea falls flat when compared to the many millions of successful students that emerged from private schools and colleges across this great nation. I agree there are very good examples of public schools, but the narrow minded idea that parents and students should have choice removed is hardly offering opportunities...

westorbust: I agree with most of your comments, but the differing opinion from me is that it should be the PARENTS choice where their child is educated. If I decide my child would be better off at a different (maybe private) school, let me take my tax dollars and use them where I see the most valur for my child. Pretty simple concept, but the resistance is becuse it would take money away from public schools, which many are seen as wasting alot of our tax dollars and putting out inferior products.

there's that same left vs right bunk. Keep at it RAF. I'm completely for school choice and expanded options when it comes to education. Many public schools are ok, some are great, some are horrible. I don't believe a government has a legal right to tell me where and how my kids should be educated. Shocking! I'm not a righty!. The best education I received was from teachers who were passionate, and most importantly, from my access to books and supportive parents who valued exploration and knowledge.
If you want your child to be smart and succeed, you have to start with yourself and set an example.

However, if children are going to be fed anti-science and pro religion slogans at their charter schools, mostly advocated by extremely conservative politicians and their financial backers, then we all lose.

Interesting how those on the left want only their form of indoctrination to be publicly funded, just more of the same from the party of do as I say not as I do.

Yes Ezoner everyone who disagrees with your OPINION is wrong. Unfortunately you have a very loose grip on the reality and the gravity of what a strong public education system provides society. It is meant to be an even playing field to give all kids a fair shot at the American dream. There is no such thing as working hard to get ahead in America, without a good education you are toast, working at Wal Mart, period.
This continued blathering about competitive education is absolutely comical. If you want to compare education to competition , maybe we could draw that comparison to the game of golf. You are only competing against yourself. Each is responsible for his/her own education, if you view educating kids as a dog eat dog competition then your opinion is simply not reality. Competition begins when you enter the job market.
Ezoner why don't you go evict some more supposed alcoholics from your properties and leave educating kids to the evil union teachers, because AGAIN that is what this is all about.

If I am paying for some kid's voucher that is unfortunate enough to be saddled with religious parents the voucher school should not be allowed to teach the religiouis nonsense to the kid. Will all voucher schools be forced to stop endorsing religion? I do not want my tax dollars going to indocternation rather than education.

Ted -- just another opinion... LIkely from a biased teacher.

Decades ago, Milwaukee vouchers were unfurled as an "experiment" that would improve all schools through competition. Not only have voucher schools rendered inferior results (even with more ivolved parents), but they have sucked resources from publc schools, causing unreasonably high class sizes and other ills. By any objective measure the experiment has failed. We should think more about ending it than expansion.

Pro -- That is an opinion -- not a fact. And it is inherently incorrect. The best universities in the nation -- are they public or private?? Hmmmm.... what makes you think that this would be any different from K-12?

You can use a societal arguement -- which holds false pretenses all the time. But its still false as the basis for the arguement is false. It is the vary partisanship that exists in the PUBLIC system that has destroyed its affectiveness and outcomes. It is the union myopic views regarding the teachers and the tax payers view regarding taxes. Its the government intervention that seems to come up with a law or regulation to fix problems they know nothing about. The very input has had a negative impact. Therefore individuals , should be allowed to port their contributions to an educational outlet as they see fit.

The survival of every culture in history has been dependent upon a strong, PUBLIC education for ALL. Voucher schools have succeeded only in lining the pockets of those operating them. Cultures fail when public unity on behalf of the universal common good (i.e. public education) diminishes. Vouchers do nothing but siphon public monies for private gain in schools that are not held accountable, schools that now demonstrate are often no better or even worse at educating, and schools that can blatantly discriminate in enrollment and employment. Vouchers with public monies inherently create inequity, discrimination, and diminish our mutual national unity. Public funds are gathered to support PUBLIC education where the voice and choice of ALL are WELCOMED to improve our schools. Personal support and involvement will achieve far more than partisanship in fund reallocation.

dtb -- let me put this another way. Either --

You want to prevent those unable to pay indepedently, from having access to the same educational opportunities as those that are wealthy.

OR - You want to force those that have the ability to pay independently to accept whatever educational opportunities that are publicly available.

This is an either or -- as a reality -- these are the ultimate decision points.

dtb -- you are wrong -- I should be able to choose. Thats the point -- you people want parent involvement -- yet only when it conforms to your believe or ideology. You cannot have it both ways. If its my choice the $$ go as well. You want to restrict where and how the $$ go -- so do I. Sounds like we let the legal system determine it.

Eliminating vouchers as with gun control and socialized health care are just the governments way of controling people. The more control over the population we allow them to exercise the less freedoms we as individuals have.

They are your tax dollars, they are my tax dollars, they are all of our tax dollars collectively (you do know how taxes work, right?). If you want to send your child to a private school, fine; use your own dollars and not our collective tax dollars that I help pay for.

Fear -- I am not sure where you got from my message that kids are competing for education, but I would actually agree -- they are. Look at college entrance requirements -- ACT/SAT scores, look at GPA, Look at CLEP requirements, then look beyond college at those that get the highest paying jobs. Guess what -- from Kindergaten to 12th you are competing to get into the best college for whatever career path you may choose. To deny that is being completely blind.

Which by the way -- is why I can never understand why parents are not more involved in the learning process. Even assuming a parent did not get the best education, those especially should be pushing for the best education possible. To remove parental choice from the opportunities, by restricting -- holding the tax dollars hostage -- is just plain wrong. A parent should have the right to choose and take those tax dollars wherever they see fit. Its their child -- not the governments, not the teachers, not the school districts and certainly not the tax payers child.

You see this as a Union issue -- I do not -- There are union issues, as there are others as well, but this issue is separate in my mind. It is my responsibility to make sure MY child gets the best education possible and therefore, ME and ONLY ME, should be allowed to port those tax dollars to whatever choice I make for MY child.

People like you complain that parents are not more involved and then when they take the inititive to make a change that shows that involvement and commitment -- you say oh -- thats not what I mean -- I want you to fall in line regarding school choice. Honestly speaking -- you are blinded by your commitment to a socialistic system that cannot address the issues by its vary structure and purpose. Its binded by the restrictions placed upon it by the government.

And for clarity -- I did not support NCLB. I believe that teachers need to be creative in the class, and if you are educating a wide spectrum of abilities, teachers need to have the flexibility to adjust cirriculum, methodology, tools etc... to drive students to excel. If that is done in the private system better, then thats where my kids go. If thats done in public system, thats where my kids go. But the government has screwed the pooch so bad on the public system, that parents need the flexibility to go elsewhere. Government -- meaning BOTH parties.

dtb -- They are my tax dollars. I am simply taking my tax dollars to use at my school of choice. Regardless of the schools affiliation.

You are forcing me to surrender MY tax dollars if I want to make another choice for MY children. Its really none of YOUR business.

donnaw: Poverty programs don't work...how do you know? You "feel" it? That is a philosophy/opinion, not a fact based one.

KLC...Can you name me a for profit school anywhere in this area? I'm just curious if there are more private schools out there, that I'm not aware of?

Also, can I assume that you don't support PJ4, since that does contribute tax dollars to for-profit day cares, using a voucher-type system.

fear....we have pumped billions of dollars into poverty programs since Roosevelt was president and it hasn't done any good. Some people just don't want to be ACCOUNTABLE! I say we stop puffing up our chests about giving people the easy way out when it comes to feeding and taking care of their kids. We have done the poor no favors by giving them handouts. Yes there are disabled ones who deserve help but any abled body person should not be taking handouts. We do have job training and othe programs in place for people to better themselves.. Short term help, yes, but when anything is free and you haven't worked for it, it is not appreciated as much, just as dtb said. Just MO.

When RAF and FAR start screaming at each other the conversation is over. :(

If the demographic meme was true then inner city schools with these same demographic makeup, that are successful, would not exist; clearly there are some very good inner city public schools around our nation. It is very clear the only view presented by those against these reforms are only interested in protecting employment and have near zero interest for what is best for parents and children in the areas that they live in. Offering choice drives improvement as well as changes, these ideas are scary for those invested in the status_quo.

my rants? Coming from the guy with over 10,000 posts that say basically the same repetitive garble over and over. Pot meet kettle.

Not a flawed claim, absolutely true. Its you in your fishbowl, know nothing of what you speak and address demographics as a racial issue, socio-economic issue. You really need to get out. You have yet to make a coherent argument, just the familiar ramblings of an angry old man. Sad, really sad.
How could you possibly understand the complexity of the variable of demographics in public schools? You can't let your blind ideology get out of the way of REALITY. Unfortunately all you seem to care about is 16% of the kids in poor districts that receive what by your definition MUST be an entitlement(code for welfare). It is a simple argument really, goes back to your hatred for unions.

Parents have a choice, put your kids in a private school. No one is stopping them. I refuse to accept any type of program that allows kids to be sent o a school that is in no way held accountable for the licensed educators teaching kids, and have no accountability. LESS than public schools!! This illusion that parents have no choice is hilarious!! This is hatred for public scho9ol teachers because you hate unions, just admit it!! All of you true conservatives should be opposed to this, this is nothing more than an entitlement for the very minorities and poor families that you believe are the drag on this country. Please don't put on this affront that you care about them.

Keep skimming RAF, it shows.

Still waiting for you to address your flawed claim of demographics in your positions.

Didn't see your quotes just assumed it was more rambling from you, my sincere apology. The reason for skimming is due to your vast incoherent rants mixed with sloppy grammar poor spelling...but hey why nit pick a person touting the benefits of public education showing their skillzzz.

Voucher schools serve 16 percent of the city’s student population what about the rest of them? No one addresses the kids who don't get vouchers.....crickets
Any parent can choose to send their kid to private schools, why should I the taxpayer pay for it?

You really make it too easy, set em up Ill knock em down.

See if you can address the reasons for this supposed "massive failure" outside of your repetitive rhetorical arguments regarding unions.
I DID NOT say students should compete as hungry birds, that was your cohort Ezoner. You really need to READ before posting Ralf. I said quite the OPPOSITE.

""Heres the problem with this so-called right wing reality that Ezoner thinks he knows about. Getting a public education is not, has not, and never will be about competing with other kids and schools. This whole idea that kids should be competing for education like hungry birds for a worm is preposterous.""

Any questions RAF? You really need to journey out of your fishbowl once in a while. Try SLOWING DOWN when you are skimming, I think its the reason your views are so flawed, you skim too much.

Fearfullrhetoric your hypocrisy rings loudly in your statement. You declare students should compete like hungry birds but have the opposite view when it comes to other social programs. So typical of the do as I say not as do left fringe.

You expect students and parents to accept public schools even in failed districts but don't expect adults to fend for their own in society.

Shining example of the right wing ignorance is the lovely donnaw, who suggests-""Give me a class of uninvolved uncaring parents and it will be chaos. Many parents have abdicated their parental responsibilities and expect the community to raise their children.""

Wow, how enlightening!! I would guess that every teacher on Earth would LOVE that situation. Heres where you and others become detached from reality. We cannot force parental involvement. We can certainly hope for it, but to act as if we can somehow enforce it, is laughable.
So what do we do with the hundreds of thousands maybe millions of kids who dont have involved parents? Let them wither away? Leave them out to Ezoner and the people that believe that educating kids is somehow a competition? Or maybe , just maybe we hire great teachers, PAY them great salaries and benefits, train them accordingly, HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, and maybe just maybe hope the can help to provide the American dream to the next generation. Maybe the American dream is just not only for well of suburbam kids?(notice I didnt say white RAF?)

YYou people need a clue, it seems that your grip on reality and what demographics and inner city families (mainly kids) and the challenges they face is really a lot different and harder than you picture. Maybe just maybe this repeated GARBAGE that teachers in Milwaukee being all about money is just a bunch of just that....Garbage. Ask a teacher in an innercity middle school who is abused many times by their students how they are there for that high paying salary. You people are clueless.

Heres the problem with this so-called right wing reality that Ezoner thinks he knows about. Getting a public education is not, has not, and never will be about competing with other kids and schools. This whole idea that kids should be competing for education like hungry birds for a worm is preposterous. All your blather about loons, I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. Possibly check out some of the inner city schools and see the problem. The problem should be how we make it a better environment for ALL the students and not just the ones lucky enough to win a lottery. How can any reasonable person not see this? As we see from RAF, Ezoner and the rest of the tough guy , rougneck tea party nutbags most people are not reasonable and cannot see past their own racist ideology.

RAF- a little education for your old, withered, white brain. NEVER in my post did I mention race. I said Demographics, let me help you with demographics definition:

dem·o·graph·ics
[dem-uh-graf-iks, dee-muh-] Show IPA

noun
( used with a plural verb ) the statistical data of a population, especially those showing average age, income, education, etc

Who is the racist? Who is the loon?
All I see is a bunch of middle aged racist white men and women speaking to an issue they have very little knowledge of, speaking only of money and prejudice. Sad state of affairs whhen this is the n arrative that rules an entire ideology. Really poor points made by the tea baggers here. address the lotter, can ou? Is that the "choice" that you advocate? Allowing any clown off the street to teach your/our//everyone's kids? Anything to rob funding from public schools, for the SIMPLE reason that you hate unions and teachers. Reall, really sad.

Ezoner, you have a choice. Send your children to any public school in the state. With 400+ school districts, there's plenty of competition for you. But don't ask to use my tax dollars to support a religious school.

bill, I find no such statement or implication in the article. If you think that ACT 10 is going to magically transform MPS, you're dreaming. It will have little to no effect, just as any other reform tried in the last 25 years has had little or no effect. Poverty is the real problem.

I don't want my tax money to go to for profit anything - education or otherwise.

I was asked to prove we send kids to great colleges. That would suggest the public is unaware and I thank the poster for pointing it out to me. We do not toot our own horn enough in education. I wont give names but the story should ring a bell for some. We graduated a young man a few years back that went on to West Point. He was not economically advantaged and many of his classmates pooled some money to get him back for a reunion. Great bunch of kids that year. Most years really. I can send you a link to his story if you want. Send me a note!

Pasta -- please -- Come on... and that not what is done in some public schools today -- where history books are re-written... facts are changed or omitted. Palease.

At issue here is forced public participation or individual choice. Thats it, plan and simple. I vote for choice. I want to have the ability to choose and take my tax $$ wherever I believe the best opportunity for success is. If thats in a religious based school fine... if not .. fine. I will discuss with my kids what is real and imaginary anyway and teachers -- regardless of which system is used will not indoctrinate my kids. I would drive towards the best educational oppotunity. My kids happen to be in the public system. But if I chose private -- I feel the money should follow the child.

billnewbie asks...
"The question really boils down to, what are education taxes meant for?"
To that I say...
Not to indoctrinate small children with religiosity.
The American Taliban...those who wish to use government to further religious beliefs. Whether they try to install their beliefs in the law, or use our tax money to indoctrinate children...

The author above has made a contention both direct and implied that Milwaukee's public schools were great before vouchers came along. Nothing could be further from the truth. MPS, as it's called, has been a basket case for decades, long before the word vouchers was ever applied to public school students. MPS is a victim both of its unions who have gained control of the school board and its seemingly insurmountable institutional inertia. Act 10 and its provisions for breaking the grip of the union's contractual rules is potentially the best thing that could ever happen to MPS. Now what they need to do is get new school board members that aren't owned by the union. That should be much easier in the future since the union has wasted so much of its money trying to unseat the Governor via recall. Perhaps the Governor should look into breaking up MPS into a dozen or so smaller school districts. That would certainly help with the institutional inertia problem MPS has.

School chioce is already available in WI - you can send your child to any public school in the state provided they are not at capacity (and few schools are).

RAF - the Milwaukee voucher program has shown that when you take those students out of failing public schools in the inner city and put them in private schools in the inner city, there is no noticeable difference in achievement.

donnaw - I defy the liberal/conservative label. I never believed in freebies for everyone. Glad to see you agree with me on the parental involvement issue.

" To force all to be forced through a single system, single process for education is rediculous, unrealistic. The collective approach cannot, and does not work." - And yet this is exactly what GWB's No Child Left Behind Law does.

The question really boils down to, what are education taxes meant for? Apparently, our loyal hardworking teachers' union believes that those taxes should be spent to strengthen the public school system that nurtures them first and foremost. Most of us think those taxes should be spent for the benefit of our students first and foremost. And who is in the best position to judge what's best for our students? The unionistas obviously think they are, but most folks agree that parents are really the best judges of what benefits their students.

I say expand school vouchers as much as can be done. If and when the unionized public schools clean up their act, they'll attract plenty of students. Until they do, let the students go where their parents believe they'll get the best possible education.

Breaking the unionized public school monopoly is in the best interests of the students, even though it is not in the interests of the employees of public schools as their outrage at the very thought of competition so clearly shows.

Stubby -- the problem is that the public proponents want to deny reality. They want to point to a single instance regardless of the facts and details. They have only one objective and that is to force all to fall in line and obey. They do not want to encourage individualism, exceptionalism, performance, reward for success. They only want to further an ideology, not look for answers and solutions. They only have one they are willing to consider and adopt no matter how poorly it is performing.

Even if you had to throw in a couple hundred dollars with the voucher, I would think people would like to see their children in an environment with well-behaved children that come to school to learn. The public schools are a hodgepodge of everything from good to bad, well-adjusted to juvenile delinquent and respectful of others to classroom bully. I like and support the option of private schools picking who can attend their schools and who can’t attend their schools. If the public schools are doing such a great job with students, they have nothing to fear, do they? Many people want better for their children and they must not be finding that in the public school system.

Amen , noverticle and ezoner. Amen.

NoV - wow your post is clueless. First - Milwaukee has had vouchers for, what, about 20 years now? This proposal changes nothing there, so why would they be "screaming" about being "kicked off the gravy train"? Not many 6 figure salaries for classroom teachers there, either.

---

Ezoner does have one point. For many it is about the PERCEPTION of value for the dollar spent., not the actual facts about value. So as long as perception trumps reality, voucher schools will seem like a good idea.

Interesting that she mentions Milwaukee as "proof" that private schools do not work. Private schools are the only ones working in Milwaukee. The reason MPS is such a disaster is that the state teachers union is in charge of MPS but that doesn't matter to the six figure salary union hacks who are only interesting in keeping teachers under their thumb and their greedy hands in the pocket books of tax payers. Now that they are in danger of being kicked off the "gravy train", it's fun to watch how they scream and spew.

The far left loons and -- thats what they are loons -- will never get that competition breeds nd drives improvement. A private school will not survive if the education(or product) is not percieved as a value for the money spent. We do not get that in public schools. Is it the unions, is it the parents, is it the broad range of student abilities and propensityfor knowledge (ability). Its all of those. You want parents to be more involved, yet when they advocate for a choice, then you want to denograte their decision and ability to choose. Ohhhh You only want their involvement as long as they fall in line with YOUR views.

There is room for both public and private. Opening up the private school opportunitities allows access to even more students. Lets face it, private schools are here to stay. They have been around for a long time. They have been for the elite and religious based organizations only in the past. This opens the opportunity up for more.

Personally -- what I see is urban schools struggling -- why? There is no single reason, but teachers, parents, income levels (family) and student ability -- all are reasons. To force all to be forced through a single system, single process for education is rediculous, unrealistic. The collective approach cannot, and does not work. COmpetitiion amoung schools does, allowing greater access to private education helps a greater number by adding access.

Teachers are angry -- why -- Public education value will drop -- unless they become a better choice. When the public system can provide the value, quality and performance -- they will pull students in.

SOme have said private schools are failing in Arizona, Nevada -- wherever -- if they are, then the students will return to the public system. Parenst will not allow that to happen as long as they have choice.

What is a dialog?...Is that a new kind of wood you burn in your fireplace?

Before all of you experts who support private charter schools blow hot air, you might want to do a bit of research and find out where Arizona, the king of charter schools, ranks educationally in the nation. But then, don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions.

When will we get it that it takes caring, interested, involved parents in addition to good teachers to make a school successful. Until you get the parent side going you can pour all the money you want into a school and those students whose parent or parents don't care won't be successful. If I am a caring trained teacher give me a class of students from involved homes and a few text books and those students will learn. Give me a class of uninvolved uncaring parents and it will be chaos. Many parents have abdicated their parental responsibilities and expect the community to raise their children.

Where is the data that shows that voucher programs and competition improves schools? The "free market" has shown in Milwaukee to further erode the public schools, not improve them.
-
Voucher schools lure students and money away from the public schools and send back those they don't want to have to educate. School funding is based on an average cost of education. Generally speaking, your highest performers are the least expensive (or more profitable). Students with special needs cost more than the average to educate well. By removing the "cheaper" students, you remove the additional resources needed to educate the aggregate. It is easy to tout success if you are allowed to only skim off the top.
-
The idea that you can apply business solutions to every problem is just like only buying a hammer to fix your house because every problem will be a nail. If you let competition decide that a school should succeed or fail - you will always have failing schools. In a competition, there is always a winner and a loser. These "losing" or "failing" schools have consequences not just for the entrepreneur who started the "academy" but also for all the students in that school and the community at large that has to absorb the products of the failing school.
-
Last note in this all too long post: pointing out that some public schools are failing and it isn't fair to trap students there is not a viable argument for vouchers. Vouchers haven't solved that problem - vouchers have made it worse. We need a policy and commitment to fix our free and equal education that makes it the most appealing choice. Solutions, not blindfolds and bandages, are needed.

dtb..."when you take away the cost and make it free, it's not valued highly and is taken for granted." You're starting to sound like a conservative. Seen the light of the liberal mantra of freebies for everyone? You hit the nail on the head why welfare programs don't work for most people but only as a short term aid.

Your racist views on this are not needed and clearly shows you have no interest in an honest debate. Further more, your claim that demographics are a key in some failing schools is another false agenda excuse. If the demographic meme was true then inner city schools with these same demographic makeup, that are successful, would not exist; clearly there are some very good inner city public schools around our nation. It is very clear the only view presented by those against these reforms are only interested in protecting employment and have near zero interest for what is best for parents and children in the areas that they live in. Offering choice drives improvement as well as changes, these ideas are scary for those invested in the status_quo.

Let us not forget Walker is REALLY promoting Privatization of education...Just like Mitt Romney did and is benefiting from today. THESE bonuses are probably yet another handout to his wealthy cronies running these for profit Charter Schools ...That by the way Is Privatization of the school system what we REALLY need? Let's see.... Budget hawks question whether it is appropriate for the state to be subsidizing kids from wealthy families.....The public schools are wondering why they would get cut while voucher schools and charter schools are held harmless or even advanced.....The teachers unions are concerned about the standards and accountability of the private schools....Walker and the GOP controlled legislature added $16.3 million in spending on 2r charters for the 2011-13 biennium.... Unlike other charter school programs across the state that are run by school districts, 2r independent charters are not accountable through the democratic process of local control.... As opposed to charter schools sponsored by school boards that are staffed by public employees, 2r charters more closely resemble private schools in their staffing, management and accountability than they do public schools. The combination of the increase in spending on the Milwaukee voucher program and 2r charters in Milwaukee is at least $36 million. [2011 Assembly Bill 40] Yes, I try to stay informed and keep up with the Bills that effect our lives! United we stand...divided we fall . Concerned Citizens...continue to keep an eye on these guys!

"honest dialog" if you want to have an honest dialog lets talkl about what money buys, second rate teachers=second rate education. Like ANYTHING in life you get what you pay for. Talking of failing schhols without HONESTLY discussing the demographics of the schols that arent failing is silly, and even someone who hates Unions and paying teachers what theyre worth should understand that failing schools are NOT a product of failing teachers. Inner city Milwaukee schools CANNOT or WILL NOT be saved by giving a small percentage of those kids a "choice" via ping pong ball lottery to ship them out to some lilly white Catholic School in Waukesha. Your logic is flawed and you ignore at least half of the variables involved, simply to make our ridicuously small minded ideological points. Laughable.

This article shines much light into dark places that our Governor would not like us to look. Fact is we do have a strong history with this to examine and the picture is not pretty or, overall, successful. Even when cherry-picking the best students, voucher schools in Milwaukee perform no better than public schools. The Tea Party faithful should be outraged at this total waste of taxpayer money!

fearfulrhetoric I agree with you on one point, this is about money. Looking at the money argument fairly the argument you raise, defunding is false. Money is for the student, if the student moved to another district the money would always follow the student, the same as if the student goes to an alternative school. So the larger question is why are the teachers union so against this shift, well that answer is an easy one, protection of jobs. Clearly this has nothing to do with students it is all jobs based. From a parent/student point of view they are only looking for the best option for them based on where the live. If the local public school is not failing the student I would think most parents wouldn't remove their student. For the many failing schools across the nation offering a choice for students should be seen as improving opportunities instead of this failed meme of defunding public schools. Clear thinking tax payers understand that narrative is a fraud statement put forth by teachers unions to scare parents instaed of having an honest dialog.

This entire infantile discussion between tea party snappers,(read below) is about nothing more than a union hating shot at the best teachers in the land.
Private school teachers are generally not certified, private schools ABSOLUTELY can decide who and whom not to admit(hence the word private), private schools have not standards for which to measure. Public schools are responsible for any and all demographics their way, rich, poor, bright, not so bright, and of course not to mention the disabled.
This is all about defunding publi education because you hate unions. Not about choice. Please stop masquerading your true intent for what you wish would happen. The United States is one of the last nations to offer the American dream to ALL of her citizens in a somewhat equal way no matter the demographiccs. This comparison using large Urban areas as a comparison is a straw man argument and they know it. Acting as if a voucher program will help a majority of kids in poor areas? Moreover most of the tea baggers on these boards talk about those kids , couldn't give a rats behind about them, its merely a whipping post to attack public schools as if they are failing our kids.
How much mone would it take for anyone to teach at an inner city school? You think a lottery system to help a few kids while leaving the vast majority behind is going to cure your white mans guilt? It may, but it does little to solve any problems.It just fills an ideological void for the morally defunct old white empty nesters that will vote for anything that "might" lower their taxes by a dollar. Remember old folks someone paid for your education too. Jeez!! WHat a bunch of tools

"The wealth of the rich is their fortified city; they imagine it an unscalable wall." Proverbs 18:11

"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." Deuteronomy 15:11

"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life." 1 Timothy 6:17-19

Looks like getting educated is about money and status, the Catholic school that Miss Scarlet attended has prevented them from entrance to heaven. Kind of a little backwards , dont ou think??

"" as an example, all members of my class at a private Catholic school are professionals now - all making over $200,000 a year."" Even if that were true is salary the true measure of education? Not very Christian of you to make such a statement. Looks like you were sleeping when they had Christainity class in your church school.

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'" Matthew 19:23-24

Looks like all of you and your classmates will be denied at the pearly gates.

Public vs. Private Education

It's easy to assume that private schools deliver a better education because so many of their graduates go on to elite colleges and successful careers. But according to the CEP, this may be due more to demographics than academic quality. When students' family backgrounds and income levels are taken into account, there is no effective difference in the quality of a public or private education.

When the report's authors compared students of similar socioeconomic status at private, public and parochial high schools, they found that:
•Achievement scores on reading, math, science and history were the same;
•Students were equally likely to attend college whether they had graduated from a public or private school;
•Young adults at age 26 were equally likely to report being satisfied with their jobs whether they had graduated from a public or private school;
•Young adults at age 26 were equally likely to engage in civic activity whether they had graduated from a public or private school.

Silence: You make the comment that the private schools put out a better product. A few logical reasons are class sizes. Private schools have smaller class sizes. Adding a voucher system would no longer make this true. Also as dtb stated, you get a better product because parents are involved! If you participate in your child's education they will be a better person as well as a better student.

This is about nothing more than a hatred for ANY person who belongs to a union, period. Facts will tell you that the choice is a fairly clear one

Public Schools Outperform Private Schools in Math Instruction

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...

Public Schools Outperform Private Ones, Conservative Christian Schools Rank Last Among Privates

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/3/...

Even if the cost covers over 90% of the schools you will still have the haves and have nots. Private schools can pick and choose who they will allow to attend. A public school does not have this option. If your child needs special services, is a discipline problem good luck getting them into a private school. If you think a private school is willing to take the public schools problems, then you may want to consider a different solution to the problem. Having a voucher system only increases the divide of the haves vs have nots.

One reason private schools work as well as they do is because parents are heavily invested in their children's education. When they have to pony up $2-300 a month, they are going to be more present in the child's school. When you take away the cost and make it free, it's not valued as highly and is taken for granted. I can see a lot of parents who don't really do much parenting sending their children to private schools on a free voucher expecting an academic miracle or expecting the school to straighten the kid out and that just isn't going to happen.

Silence, the cost of private high schools is significantly higher than elementary schools. The $6,000 voucher would not cover the cost at many of these schools, some over $10,000 tuition.

Hammer there is no way to measure the effectiveness of home schools since they aren't accountable to anyone. Although there are many home schooled children that are high achievers, there are just as many "schooled at home" where there is little to no learning going on and the parent keeps the child home for a variety of reasons.

jqpublic...the vouchers that Milwaukee gets are over $6,000. That would more than cover over 90% of private schools in the state.
St. Pauls is $3500, St. Johns is $4200, Oakhill is $3500. I don't know exact costs of the others, but I've talked to parents of students from St. Pats, St. Matts and St Marys and I know its not over $5,000.
Private school isn't right for everyone, but with vouchers its affordable for everyone. Without the vouchers its only available for the well to do, or a large sacrifice for middle class. The fact that many middle class families sacrifice to send their children speaks volumes to the quality of the product they put out.
The idea of school for profit is thrown around as a fear tactic, but you never see any data to support that notion. The only examples of this I've ever seen are in comedies at the movie theater.

jqpublic
"This is where you begin to have the haves and the have nots at the expense of the majority."

And some of those "have nots" have worked two jobs to enable them to have the choice. Not everyone who makes those choices are rich, certainly no one in my family. Families that make the choice for alternative schooling, often give up many other things to make it possible.

It is not right for a child's education to suffer, and most parents I know, would work three jobs if they could ensure a better future for their family.

Prepare for fly-by-night schools where the Superintendent/CEO skips town in a luxury car and a 6 figure salary on the taxpayers dime while not paying the teachers and leaving behind uneducated students.

wislady: Now that is a post I can respect. You're right it is great to have a choice. However when you give families a voucher by taking away funds from public education. Most families will still not be able to afford sending their children to a private school. This is where you begin to have the haves and the have nots at the expense of the majority.

I have grandchildren who have attended the parochial schools, a Montessori school, and some in home schooling, along with some who went through the public school system. That is why CHOICE is important. No proof that the education is any better, but the learning atmosphere certainly is. It isn't "hate" that makes parents chose alternative schooling, but what works better for their child.

Janesville schools must do something right, after all, Paul Ryan has been successful.

Shouldn't be surprised by all the public school haters out there commenting. People often talk loudest about things they know the least. I doubt I can change your minds, but I can challenge some of your statements and offer my views. After all, I do work in a public school so I don"t have to quote "friends" or that one neighbor who seems to know how bad it is. Lets start by reminding you that schools aren't failing students. During the years of my emloyment, Janesville has sent graduates to West Point, Ivy league schools, and many other institutions that even you public school haters would have to admit rank among the world's finest. I believe in continual self-evaluation and no system is perfect, but to call it "Failing"? pants on fire, my friend. I'll start there.

The tragedy is that it took Scott Walker's highly controversial legislation to get people to take a serious look at the many weaknesses of the public school sphere, at least in Wisconsin.

This is National School Choice Week. Here is an interesting story on choice.

National School Choice Week highlights new education models in Indiana

Read more at http://fox59.com/2013/01/28/national-sch...

Anyone who thinks tax dollars aren't used to pay for abortions is woefully misinformed.

That's the problem, most public schools DON'T teach "all" the students the way they need to be taught.
Public schools aren't really "accountable" either, even though there may be an illusion of it.

nemesis said,
"I thought our country was based on choice. There is freedom of choice when it comes to abortions why not schools."
Neither you nor anyone else can use tax dollars for an abortion. I think I like your proposal.

Schools that accept vouchers are not held accountable, and they are not required to accept all students. The are not required to employ licensed teachers, or take state tests, or accept special education students. They teach students whose parents are supportive and who don't require student services. If voucher schools are required to accept AND serve ALL students and then held accountable the same way public schools are, fine. But until then, keep public dollars in public schools that teach all students, regardless of how difficult that may be.

The damage done to peoples' futures by "locking" them into only one school isn't only a big city phenomena, it happens with MOST public schools.
Oh, I know, ........blasphemy!!!

gazette staff....please respond!!

How misinformed is the gazettextra staff to have missed the relevant connection between this author and the teachers union? Was it a mistake this was overlooked or was the information intentionally left out?

This author is married to the president of the Milwaukee public teachers union. She and her husband are activists who are solely worried about the protection of public sector jobs. They both have community blogs that have shown their views. This took 2 minutes to find yet the gazette staff ignored that information in posting who this person is.

http://barbarajminer.blogspot.com/

http://bob-peterson.blogspot.com/

The practice of "locking" students into one school with no choices has done untold damage to many futures and to the country as a whole.

The teachers are petrified of any choice it will make them accountable like the rest of us, and the excuses are laughable and almost sick.

Left wing bull the shame of the left and there partner unions let the inner city kids sink, its all about the kids the union says.
I thought the left was the choice party, but the only choice they believe in is abortion, not school, or healthcare, or what we eat, or drink or what we drive ect. ect.

I was against vouchers until I read this...

http://www.gazettextra.com/news/2013/jan...

And I suppose they all own oceanfront property in Arizona also.

Ivbald537 - as an example, all members of my class at a private Catholic school are professionals now - all making over $200,000 a year.

I thought our country was based on choice. There is freedom of choice when it comes to abortions why not schools. Parents won't be able to find the best school for their kids just what is allowed by the unions. The opponents of choice are advocating union control. That's what wasted more than $20 million in tax money in recall and election lawsuits in 2011 and 2012.

Her husband shares her view, here is his blog.

A blog by Bob Peterson, president of the Milwaukee Teachers' Education Association

Sunday, January 13, 2013
It's Time for a Moratorium on New Charter Schools in Milwaukee

http://bob-peterson.blogspot.com/2013/01...

The whole article should have been posted. This paragraph is especially enlightening.

"Powerful movers and shakers, including Mayor Tom Barrett, wooed Rocketship to Milwaukee. With a business approach not unlike that of McDonald’s or Wal-Mart, national franchises such as Rocketship develop a uniform, cost-efficient product that can be marketed and replicated nationwide, especially to cash-strapped urban districts."

(From the blog date of 12/12/2012)

CHARTER SCHOOL COMPLEXITY
"Charter schools have their roots among progressive educators in the 1990s who wanted charter contracts with school districts so they could operate outside the bureaucracy and experiment. The goal was to improve academic achievement, strengthen the connections between school and community, and use the lessons learned to improve public schools overall.
Thankfully, some charter schools still uphold those values. But in recent years, the charter movement has become the darling of hedge-fund managers and entrepreneurs who see a big pot of money in public schools. And it is these forces that are driving the charter school movement’s dominant agenda of promoting privately run charters that are independent of school board supervision."

http://www.barbarajminer.blogspot.com/

Very interesting blog, click at the bottom for the older stories. The blog is a liberal manifesto.

Whatever the case may be, the notion of "locking" kids into one school with no options has got to STOP.

This "editorial" is full of so much misinformation.
First, if 30% of the students left to go to private schools, why would that money have to be made up? The money wouldn't be needed because there would be fewer classes needed, so fewer teachers. Conversely, if there was in increase in enrollment, there would be a increase in funds to expand the classroom. Why do they think that model only goes one way?
Next, her information on Milwaukee is inaccurate. The private schools didn't get to pick the cream of the crop students. The vouchers only went to low income students. Their test scores weren't better, but the cost to the state of educating them was $4,000 less per student that what the state pays for public education.
Another falsehood that is common from the anti-voucher group is that only the elite can attend private schools. In Rock County, there isn't a private school that charges even $5,000 per student. Less than half of what the schools system spends per pupil in the public system. I would wager to say, most students at St. Paul's, St. Williams, St. Pats, etc are anything but middle class.
The Unions are out in full force to fight vouchers, not because of the students, but because of their union membership. Proof of that can be seen in communities like Janesville, where charter schools aren't opposed by the union because they employ union teachers. But in other communities where they are run by the school district but not by the union, they are a bad idea (see last summers Chicago protests.)

MissScarlet.... would you please specify some "good" private schools. They are not held to any educational standard, do not need to hire certified teachers, do not need to admit nor keep troublemakers, are entitled to use the special programs of the public schools, and take large sums of taxpayer dollars which are then deducted from the public schools' financial support. How is all that helpful to improving education????

Say 'YES' to expanding voucher system. Our children deserve the option to choose between the failing public school education and a good private school education.

And the best students are the ones who care to learn and know that the government will not be there for them.

Still the best students statistically higher are home schooled, or the home school environment. Also they don't receive programming, indoctrination that goes beyond what a true educational curriculum should be. Dr. Dobson said it best, "When you send your child to school, they do not become property of the state".

"Such charters have become the darling of national franchise operations. Their business model is akin to that of McDonald’s or Wal-Mart."

Considering that McDonalds got a waiver from Obamacare, and Walmart heir (Sam Walton)heavily funded the Obama SuperPac, it is odd the writer used the comparisons.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/insi...

Vouchers or privatization is just another way of saying theft. Theft of the public common for the use of the select few. Usually those select few are the ones that can afford the most. To whom much is given, much is expected. Those that believe in vouchers think they are either special, or believe schools should not teach trivial classes, such as science or civics.