Yea and Newton has the theory of gravity. When you guys try to call evolution a theory as a derogatory term it shows that you really don't understand the use of the word in that context.

Sally; "Way to except responsibility." ---- You meant accept responsibility- right? would've expected more from a scholar like you

dub190, your lack of facts and details is indicative of your ideology. What did the media do or say exactly? How many times did they say it? Mission Accomplished was Georgy's doing and no one else's. Way to except responsibility.

dub190, why did they pass the Medicare Prescription Drug plan is the wee hours of the morning, and held the vote open pass the set time?

Or, why did they pass the Patriot Act so fast?

Oops, the Republicans were in charge, sorry, I forgot.

The majority of Republicans are against health care for it's own citizens, but Bush's illegal war provided health care at taxpayer's expense to the citizens of Iraq.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RB4pRZNeh8E/Rr...

Supporting health care reform but not any plan that exists or any that might exist is a bit delusional to say the least. When the stimulus package was proposed and passed the skyfallers kept repeating we would have runaway inflation. Yet, inflation has not materialized. Now, the sky is falling again with a government takeover of everything. Yet, this too is a lie. Yes, we should be educated, but that education needs to focus on finding the truth and not on supporting what you already believe to be true.

What is really sad, it that the same powers of skepticism and hatred that are focused on our current President somehow weren't focused on our last torturing, spying on citizens, lying last President. Evidently, Conservatives are the only ones capable of screwing this Country.

weezer: What you want is exactly what the plan proposes to do.

i dont care if they offer people who dont have health care but give us that have a job and have health care the option to take either or dont force it on us

fitzyman, while not good bipartisanship, can you really blame the Dem's? Bush and the Republicans had 8 years to do something and failed miserably on any health care issues. Suddenly they are mad because they are being forced to actually address the issue? Maybe if they addressed the issues that affect the people, and not just their fat cat backers, there would be a better bill.

I simply want to say that providing the opportunity of health care for everyone is a very good thing and the debate is more about how to best do this without putting the country in more financial stress than it already is. The current plan is too much of a risk and there are many on both sides with better economic plans that will allow for free enterprise. The problem is that the President only wants to hear about suggestions regarding the current bill and disregards all other options. I was not as concerned as some about my children hearing the President during school, but I understand why individuals feel that his choice to do so was a political move to gain young followers. The President does not make the choice to do something unless he believes it will help his cause in some way shape or form. He has proven to be very un-presidential in my mind and seems to be making decisions that are setting us up for government control of everything. The real ignorant ones are the individuals that continue to follow his lead because of his race or political affiliation. He is a man and not a god. He has ideas, but he can also make mistakes. I simply ask that everyone would really listen to the words and educate themselves about how decisions now will affect the future and put "who they are listening to" aside. It is not about the President, IT IS ABOUT THE PEOPLE. You might think it is dems against reps, but it really isn't. There are many that are simply looking out for the best interest of the country and do not want to be rushed into something that could put our country at great risk. FACT: Had the current bill passed in August, it wouldn't have taken affect until 2013. My question: What was the rush to pass it? Especially if health care is needed NOW. My opinion, timing. It allows President Obama to say he has provide health care for every individual before we actually see the economic cost to the country. Therefore, he is the "hero" and can campaign for re-election before anyone sees the damage.

If only it were that easy. Do I support national healthcare. Well yes I do, but not the way it is proposed in any of its proposals. We need real reforms. Not what is on the floor today? He has drawn a line in the sand said it my way or the highway. In my house that would not be a good way to go about it. Being responsible and work together is the only way. The Dems don't get it. They did not ask for support from the Reps, they said this is what we are doing and that’s it. I want everyone covered. I want cost reduced. I want my doctor to be paid reasonably well and the staff that works around him. I want the drug companies doing their job too. Research cost money, development cost money. What is out on the table now just moves the burden to the federal government with little or no cost improvement. It also leads to a full government take over of healthcare. We need to fix what the fed already does too. At this rate nobody will have healthcare in the near future. Within my life time anyway. I already lost a 20 year pension. I see Social Security may not be there for me. And now this healthcare agenda doesn't look very good at all. Watch out, read and listen. Neither side is telling the truth, especially the President.

so, PETE thinks ONLY 10-25% without heathcare insurance is a good thing? how very chirstian of you.....

IvoteIspeak; thats a real mature & well thought out post. Dont you think its possible most (if not all) on here want some kind of reform & new regulation just NOT Gov't ran health care.

to all who dont beleive in universial healthcare, i hope that when you are really in need of your healthcare your insurance company drops you because you forgot to tell them something really dumb like you stubbed your toe when you were 5. and you all lose your a!@es and then you will understand how important it really is. so may the cancer be with you!!!!!

Andre - you must carry a mirror around all day so you can see someone who likes and agrees with you.

Probably a Bears fan too ....

Unidentified , That is the problem with this, the influx of many version of the bill adds to confusion on such an important topic. Add in the rumor mongering, and no one really knows what is true or hyped up hysteria. There are many legitimate complaints and fears on both sides. Some changes needed to be made. Hopefully our political process will not fail us again, and what is passed will be tolerable to all.

tired , I can't really say that is not the case (I would have to see the wording in the bill), but I do find things tend to get exaggerated sometimes to fit an agenda. I looked at newsread5 posts and did not see any links to support that contention. If you know of a link to this passage, please put it up. I have tried looking at the bill and could not find anything like what was mentioned. But I did not have too much time to look, got homework to do!

Chad: I think what some fear is that when say everyone Timbucktwoville now has coverage, but there is only two doctors, what happens? In other countries they have to dictate where doctors can practice and what field they can practice in. That is the only way there are enough doctors to cover everything. We're already short doctors and nurses. Most people have to wait a month to see a specialist now. I just don't think our system can handle the added influx. As a result, the cost of this plan will be exponentially higher than anticipated. Moreover, at some point, maybe not initially, the government will have no choice but to limit coverage.

chad;
I dont like doing this but I dont know how to direct you to the other thread. Apparently, NEWSREAD5 beat me to the answer your looking for on Union Rep. **** This is HIS/HER post - I'm NOT taking credit for it - although I agree with it.
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If you think this about health care read parts of the bill: Buried in Title II, Part 3, Subtitle D of the bill is the requirement that the HHS panel that will set standards for health care employment must have union (read SEIU, the biggest health industry union) representation.

The bill also ties big piles of grant money to unionization. In Title V, Subtitle D, which funds grants for nurse training, the bill limits eligibility for funding to employers that “provides wages and benefits to its nurses…that have been collectively bargained with a labor organization.” Its all about Obama paying back his supporters and increasing their strengh. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Andre - thanks for showing your infantile, hot headed attitude to the world. I am glad you were never a manager of me. I know there were some little Napoleons of your type down there, but luckily I had supervisors who had good interaction skills.

tired - yes, that can be a concern that could always be a possibility of some kind. But I was just struck that the article posed this as more of a given, not as small possibility. Even though I happen to believe in the purpose of unions (and yes, I agree there is a lot to be negative about them), I don't see forced unionism for those government jobs as a reality until I see more evidence to dispute my views.

Chad; I agree it is one article - regardless, consider this. The sector of our economy that has the most union employees (nationwide) is Gov't. It would then stand to reason - logically - especially being Chicago politics is in DC - that all these "new jobs" that are going to be created by the public option - assuming we are forced into accepting some version of... will most likely be union jobs. Do you think Obama considered that last night when he said it would cost $900B? There is NO WAY they can put a price tag on this & guarantee taxes will not pay for it.
***
I also have to agree with MrData: if the "penalty" is set @ 8% but as an employer I would pay say 10% in private insurance - I'm going to opt to put all employees on the public plan. This system he proposed last night essentially will create a lower income welfare fund. Think of this - jobs that make $80k will need to have a health insurance plan that cost less than $6,400 (8%) annually to be cost effective for an employer yet a $10 hr job - $20k would need to provide a plan that cost less than $1,600 annually - good luck with finding that plan- this creates a system designed to fail! only lower paid wage earners will be on this plan & the plan itself will not be able to sustain its cost to operate & function. This will then lead to be subsidized by taxes - again. So in essence, yes, you "can" keep your current insurance - if you already have it - but what employer is going to want to?

Well, tired, while this was an interesting read there seemed to be no solid facts as to what Mr Mix was alluding to. He was interpreting the language the way he wanted to see it.
"authority to regulate health-care workers "under the public health insurance option." Monopoly bargaining and compulsory union dues may quickly become a required standard resulting in potentially hundreds of thousands of doctors and nurses across the country being forced into unions." That quote is a great example of MR Mix's great leaps in logic. Nurses and Doctors are regulated right now, and are not "forced" to join anything. How would that change if the workers under the public health option were regulated?
It will be interesting to see any backlashes from this article. Besides, as Mr. Mix is president of the National Right to Work Committee, he does not have an unbiased view of this topic. I would prefer a review of this topic from someone more neutral, than someone crying wolf.

National healthcare reform can happen for all of us in way much better than through the creation of a public heathcare option. Laws can be revised to make it illegal for private health insurance companies to deny coverage, cancel participants, or charge too much and laws can be revised to limit mal-practice lawsuits and eliminate the 'defensive medicine' costs AND laws can be changed to make insurance companies allow its insured to go anywhere in the US for their medical needs, anywhere! New univeristy reform can educate twice as many med school students and graduate twice as many doctors and nurses.

OR - if we must have a public option because the liberal left continues to NOT embrace bi-partisanship, then at least up the employer penalty for not providing healthcare insurance to its employees from a mere 8% to 25% at a minimum and remove the standards in the bill that private insurance companies will be required top adopt in 5 years. If the puiblic option is intended to create competition -- let the private sector insurance companies COMPETE without government interference. That at least would discourage employers from dropping private insurance overage for their employees which will force their employees onto the new public healthcare option.

That way at least the 300 + million of us who currently have private, quality healthcare coverage will still have a chance of retainig it.

I knew it! I predicted this 2 months ago - better keep a close eye on this one.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...

Andre - the majority of your posts just bash the union. Try comprehending that, you Neanderthal. I don't have to convince people like you about what kind of work habit I have. I know that was the truth, and so does everyone that counts in my life. I see you still have not proven YOUR worth to the company. How do we know that wasn't money just pissed away? You were probably just another level of corporate quicksand that kept GM from running at its full potential.
And for the record, there were times I had done extra work without getting paid. I guess you lost that bet. Yeah, I know that breaks your stereotype of a union goon, but you are so wrong on many accounts its just laughable.
And if you want to start talking about scandals and abuses on the salaried side, well that would take a couple of days to write all that.

andre_linoge; Maybe you should make this point to your comrade in arms "advanced degree" boy darwin.
***
I'm sure Chad would love to discuss this with neanderthal man but apparently he's MIA after the latest round of lashing's with DiZ - he's probably looking for his edited version of the Constitution.

What a stupid question as it is posed. The question should really be> Do you support the legislation as currently written> Yes/No or be multiple choice.

Do you support reform, Do you reject any reform, You have not yet decided on whether reform is required.

The people representing t his paper are as stupid as those in Washington. They just don't get it. It gotta be either green or red. There is no yellow.

futurerichguy - apparently andre doesn't see your point. Management as a whole has to take its share of responsibility for what happened. People like Andre just spread the blame to others. A degree can still be gotten by those who barely pass the classes. Just because you went to higher education does not always equal one having a higher education.

Andre - in response to your questions;

1. Avid Packer fan, but NEVER blew a day off to see a game. Just set the DVD.
2. Only complained about job content when I felt it was warranted, actually hardly ever called the committee man as I usually had supervisors who could work things out person to person.
3. Had plenty of times I didn't get vacation because of seniority. Just chose different days then.
4.As far as the pay, it was hard work. If you work it out, we made about $.50 a vehicle we worked on. Our wages were a small percentage of the total vehicles cost. But, you apparently NEVER had to work the line, as you would not have to ask such a question.

Answer this: How much did you make per hour and what did you do to earn that? You complain about others, but show no evidence as to why YOU deserved what you did.

And I may seem like I was an atypical union employee, but there were more like me than you know. If you had gotten time to know people like us, instead of sitting on your throne, maybe you would be a better person.

Dear Sally
"To Promote the General Welfare" Key word "Promote" not pay for or force others to pay for, but to only PROMOTE the general welfare. That means to encourage the people to help each other..not force the people to be charitable but to PROMOTE the concept of it. The Government should NEVER force anything onto the People. That is the Power Down syndrome that has violated our Constitution since 1913. The Power(authority) trickles up FROM THE PEOPLE to the Government not the opposite. We do not need a BIG Brother trying to tell us what is good for us, when none of them will have to live under conditions they are so eager to force upon all of us. We the People will decide for ourselves and our families, not the government. If that is a hard cookie to chew you can always head north to Canada and live in your dream world.

1. Fix Social Security.
2. Fix Medicare.
3. Fix Medicaid.
4. Balance Budget.
Get back to me later on Socialized Medicine.

andre_linoge, I'm willing to wager that anyone off the street couldn't have done any worse than GM's management. I mean, you can't do much worse than bankruptcy. So if you have a problem with someone off the street making $27 an hour, I guess I have a problem with someone off the street making tens of millions per year.

you can dress em up, but you can't take em out in public. If you children don't stop fighting and name calling you will have to go to time out.

Those in DC. just do'nt get it give us the same health care they have easy fix

http://www.truthout.org/090609Z?n

Yes, andre the Constitutional lawyer is going to not tell us about what the word "Welfare" meant when the Constitution was written. It meant - get some slaves.

andre - Thanks for the tip. Now you have narrowed your job down even more. So darwin is right, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about when it comes to unions. Just another dorky opinion from a person sitting on the sidelines, trying to talk like he was in the game.

I actually quote what the actual Constitution actually says: a quote is not an interpretation - duh.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Union is right there in the Constitution. Promote the general Welfare is in the Constitution - no interpretation needed.

Even for your ignorance, no interpretation is needed.

andre, so you have never been in a union. Then why all the posts telling us what unions do, when clearly you didn't know what you were talking about. So, you aren't lying now but you were lying then. Conservative stands for con man.

chad, andre is way to ignorant and socially incompetent to have been GM management or an engineer.

So you were a manager at GM. That explains a lot. That is why GM ran into problems. Hard headed, know-it-all,cro-magnons that ran it down the tube. Fortunately,for the most part, I had supervisors that were less bull headed than you.

Something has to be done and quick because the system we have now is broken and there are too many uninsured citizens. Being able to have medical care is a priority and no one should be denied medical attention when needed or have to worry if they can afford it or not.

andre, you have already admitted you were in a union. You are from the University of Glenn Beck.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...
Here is a great film about healthcare systems around the world. Much more balanced than Sicko.
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I had to crack up at the people in London protesting against "American style Healthcare"! How funny that we have people protesting the opposite things...change is hard no matter which side you're on!

Yes, chad, union socialist hypocrite andre thinks you're a clown while he is a graduate of the Glenn Beck University of Two Faced Con Men.

The most wasted of all days is one without laughter. ~e.e. cummings

That is why I always read your posts, for I want to laugh every day.

While I on the other hand may disagree with people, but do not wish that bad things befall them. You are one of humanities darker clouds.

Spot on, justsayno! Where were these stalwarts of the American pocketbook when an estimated 9 to 12 billion "disappeared" in Iraq. How many people could have had health care on that little mistake. The Tea parties are just a grandstand to make certain people feel like they are actually doing something. There wasn't a tax break that didn't have to be made up for in another fashion. Just robbing Peter to pay Paul the last 8 years.

So andre was in management. That explains his unfettered disdain for the "working class".

Here is a link to a comparison of the different proposals. See for your self that HR676 is the only way to go.
http://www.healthcare-now.org/docs/sprep...
Private Health Insurance is like a hospital gown. Chances are your a$$ ain't covered.
Put Single payer on the table.Everybody in Nobody Out. Patients first -Not profits.
There are countries who have health care for all their people. Why don't we?
HR 676 is health insurance for patients before profit.

Thank you, 'justsayno'. Seems a lot of people forgot about the billions spent on an unnecessary war for one. And, how come the Repub's didn't draw a line in the sand requiring their prescription benefit bill to be "revenue neutral?" Very selective memories from that side of the asile.

darwin1: ?

We draw the line with a vote. I know you and the republican brown shirts have a difficult time with voting because you don't agree with it - convenient. Why does Paris Hilton deserve to inherit millions tax free? Why does Rush get to blather about socialism over the publicly owned air waves? How is it that you cry and whine about socialism while a voluntary member of a union that serves to make everyone equal - socialist.

Many people here are lucky enough to have health care. They are either provided health care through their work or they make enough money to buy their own. I hear so many people say "Why should we pay for others health care? Jobs no longer offer health care as a benefit. Those days are gone. The ones that do offer it the price is so high , few can afford it. The system we have right now does nothing but promote higher earnings for the drug companies and the insurance companies. Everyone in this country deserves health care. EVERYONE. Not just the rich or empowered.
A country as advanced as ours should be able to figure this out. I can only imagine the lobbyist and their $$ who will never go along with health care for everyone. And the congressmen and senators who accept those $$. Doesn't happen? LOL

One Big A$$ Mistake America

I support HR 676 but at the moment it is not on the news or the media as a reform option for health care. I have only heard about proposed legislation and no I have not read the entire bill but I sure can read my hospital bill. I can tell you it would be nice to live in a country where we do not recieve medical bills, because they are all taken care of. I want to live in a country where nobody gets denied health care, where nobody files bankruptcy due to getting sick, losing their insurance and jobs. Paulette Garrin said it best. If the poll was re worded then yes I would vote for HR 676 definitely. IF PEOPLE KNEW NATIONAL HEALTH CARE WAS AN OPTION THEY WOULD VOTE FOR IT. Take the power back! Tell Ryan to support HR 676 and thank Tammy Baldwin for sponsoring the legislation. Stop bickering at each other about politics, and take action. Do Something! Obama said we'd get change, and now it's time to collect.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/what-c...

"If I don't use the money, someone will."
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This is the main reason our country is so far in debt. This line of thinking is the same politicians use when budgets are put together.

The 'right' has thrown out so many red herrings, if not outright lies, that it's hard to address them all. The bottom line is that we are the only industrialized country in the world that doesn't provide insurance to all its citizens as a matter of right. I don't know which sickens me more, the fact that our reps in Congress are more concerned with preserving their millions in donations from the health care lobbies, or that many of my fellow citizens like the idea of letting the health care industry make millions in profits and salaries, off the backs of sick people. Speaking of sick...

Oh, and I prefer "The one who shall not be named" instead.... :)

Andre - your post DID paint a twisted picture of me and my beliefs. Again, you showed your disdain for people with other opinions. Thanks for proving my point. As opposed to what you say, I have been successful in the past and will be again. My value of success is not based solely on a dollar value. I am also not dependent on the government as you say, but merely taking advantage of a resource available to me. You have tried to guess my position in life, yet have failed miserably. Don't take your act to Vegas.

RAF - It's not that I necessarily disagree with your opinion that dependence on the government should be less. I just think it foolish to not take help where and when it is available. One could refuse that help on ideological grounds, but would that really help the person in the long run? A smart businessman always uses all resources available. If I don't use the money, someone will. And at least I know it's used for a good cause.

DiGriz - what is the Republican mantra then, vote late or don't vote at all? or Vote then bitch and moan because the poll does not reflect your opinion? That is just old rhetoric you are spewing.

biggirl do you also oppose other things we spend more money on than any other country? For instance, we spend more money per student in this country than any other industrial nation in the world...where is the outrage for that?

Do you support the continuation of our existing healthcare system, a system that is bankrupting the United States? We pay more than any other developed country for less. Its unsustainable, and it will ruin us if it continues.

andre, that is a harsh thing to tell anyone.

Chad, I didn’t distort anything. My response was a direct answer to your first two questions. The rest of your statement, we will have to agree to disagree.

RAF - I did not say I was for higher taxes, don't exaggerate my postings. I pay taxes (and I pay for SCHOOLS even though we have no children, is that fair??), so why can't I get some of my EARNED money back through another source than deductions on my tax form? My point is everyone DOES take advantage of some kind of benefit. You get tax breaks because you fit certain criteria. I get benefits because I am a displaced worker, I fit that criteria. And before you complain about not getting that benefit, well, I would trade having a job over having to "retool' for another career. What I want to do requires higher learning, so that is the path I chose. And I would consider everyone using this benefit to end up being a positive for the community. So just like deductions, I will use every benefit I can while it is available. I don't think you can lump all benefit programs into one, each has their own merits to debate. Mismanagement of the programs are the worst problem, leading to waste. but a program that can bring back a benefit to the community/state/country, I do not consider a waste of tax dollars.

Or New Orleans after Katrina? No government there, and that worked so well!
*
We have freedom BECAUSE of our government!

Somalia has less government (none in some areas) so why not move there and enjoy all that FREEDOM?

Chad, the answer to your question on tax deductions is easy. It is not the government’s money to start with; it is the person/business paying taxes that EARNED the money. The same illogical reasoning goes to all those that think others should pay higher taxes than they already do; if you are for raising taxes start out right and pay more than you are required before asking others to cough up more.

The better question is why don’t you want them to keep their money?

RAF - Should business people take advantage of every tax break their accountants can find? Why do you think the wealthy don't want a flat tax? Government subsidies come from many avenues, not necessarily when someone gets unemployment , help for school, or other direct benefit. Legislation can enhance business profits, yet it is not a direct handout from the government. Should small business loans be discouraged? Yes, the management ,regulation ,and need of some programs should be debated. But not all programs are a negative to our society. It would be nice to live in a world where everyone had a job and no help was needed. But that is not realistic. People make their own path in life, but sometimes the unexpected happens and help is needed. I use all benefits available the same as I would not quit taking property taxes off as a deduction. I went to public schools, even though I personally did not pay for it. People who act like they get no government help or benefits are sorely mistaken. We all get a handout of some sort. To rephrase your question, can you sustain yourself without using tax deductions? If so, why are you using them? Maybe because it is available?

“do you think I am stupid to take advantage of what is available today?”

Chad, a more correct question is should everyone take advantage of every program available by the government for assistance or only use what is a necessity for sustenance. I am not saying you are of this group nor did I disparage you for your circumstances. The problem with so many of these services is they inevitable lead to dependence and not independence.

If a univeral health care plan is adopted will the President and Congress and fed employees use it also? noway, they as much as said no, they will keep their own. If it is good enough for us then it should be good enough for them. I haven read one thing what it covers and dont covers and I doubt if anyone else has also.

andre - I don't belittle your accomplishments, just your attitude to others less fortunate. You make it sound like I am loafing on the government payroll, which is WAY off base. How do I know you have made it so good by cheating others, not paying taxes, ect?? I don't. And you don't know my situation. I love the way you have placed me in this neat little package as a government moocher. What a misguided fool you are.

RAF - I am not degrading his achievements, if he did what he said, then that is great. But to demean others for taking advantage, in a positive venture, of some government help is stupid. Would I make it on my own if these programs were not available. Yes, I have done it before! But to NOT take advantage of all resources available is stupid in my opinion. And there are many ways one can be helped on the way up the economic ladder, lets not be so simplistic. How do we know he hasn't gotten any "breaks' of some kind in his lifetime? Unless he posts his whole resume on here, there isn't a way to debate that. Maybe there should be less help from the government, but do you think I am stupid to take advantage of what is available today?

Less Government = More Freedom for the rich to control the poor... period.

I am not in favor of many social programs because they extend to too many individuals. I am fine with paying for people that have physical or mental handicaps. I am even fine with helping those who just lost a job (for a month or two at max), but I can't stand giving my money to help those that are too lazy to work. If this was the depression era, those people would starve and I would be fine with it. Back in those days you had to work to feed your family. Now you can just collect off of social programs. I think that is plain wrong. Especially when there are jobs available. People always complain about the illegal alien problem but many Americans are too proud to do the jobs they are doing. Instead, they decide to be lazy and collect government checks.

Chad the point you are missing is one all Americans should be happy for. No matter what possessions he has, it has cost you nothing by way of tax dollars for him to get. You should thank him for it not complain about it.

And I should refuse government help, while doing something that is a positive for our society, for WHAT reason? I play the cards that are dealt me and try and make the best of the situation. I am so happy you are so perfect that you can sit up on your throne and sneer at those who happened to have a little misfortune. I can comprehend the pomposity of your statements. I can comprehend you think you are "special". Everyone's path in life is different. Some face more pitfalls than others. Some are born with a silver spoon. How do you judge others actions without knowing the whole scenario? I am glad I don't have friends that are like you. You can still have all you have, yet still be the poorest man in the world. Let's all give a cheer for Super Andre! PPPHHHHTTTT!!!!!!

Less Government = MORE FREEDOM!

iamqueenb; read it again. Its Sec. 102 - It clearly states several things: 1.You HAVE to have it now in order to "opt out" of the public option.
It may not matter anyway as Obama now has said the public option may be off the table.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/090...

There is no doubt that we need to make some changes to our health care system. Too many people go without insurance and care. The question is "do we want the government to run it?" Neither party seems capable of balancing a budget and living in their means. Why would we expect that a Washington run Health Care system could or would save us money? My only other comment is that "the devil is in the details". Are we as a country ready to pay for abortions on demand with our tax dollars? Agree or disagree that is a hot button issue that belongs in another debate and should not included in this reform effort.

Andre - you base peoples worth on how many toys and money they have? I've known people with less that are "richer" people than you. I've also know people who have more than you do and don't feel the need to brag to prove they are successful. While what you have done is good, your attitude and words show what kind of person you really are.

darwin; put this in your pipe & smoke it. I cant wait to hear this ---- or maybe its just another one of our "lies"
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/090...

call1, you could probably be more of a blather fool if you really tried. You're still on "death panels"? You should be a politician; you've got the lying part down. Nobody wants to hear Conservatives and their pathetic lies anymore.

I'm shocked to see people actually "Still" think they'll be able to stay with their Health Insurance, If they want to.

Its a fact People.. YOU WILL NOT! The Option for that was taken out a while back, and to my knowledge.. its not been put back, & Obama does not want it in there. He's no different then any other Politician. He says what you want to hear, and does the exact opposite. How many campaign promises has the guy kept? I know of at-least three occasions (i.e. Bills) with trillions of dollars in Pork spending, & not one, did he make any Author of Pork Entries famous..

OH Pop QUIZ (aka Ice breaker).. speaking of Pork Spending.. Can anyone tell me, the two worst, Wisconsin Pork Spending Authors are?

How can people support something they (Senators, Reps, Nor Voters) have NEVER read?! This is exactly where we have gone wrong in a huge way. We're too blind, deaf, & lazy to correct it, & thats why we'll be screwed on the way it passes. Listen to the Senior citizens who are worried because.. they are correct, & I have read some of this crap bill. If the Obama gets his bill remember this.., Senior Citizens, the disabled, & anyone else chronically ill.. they'll be the ones without coverage during the 10 yr phase in, where even Obama himself says.. "Not everyone will be covered." The "death panel" we're hearing about in the news,from the "Paranoid Left wing Nut jobs" (according to supporters of this trash).. I don't know if "death panel" is the correct term, but its basically another government bureaucracy created for the purpose of deciding each citizens worth with, what i'm sure, will be Top Secret Algorithm's, so we'll never know how they come up with the numbers they'll use to decide how much in Health Care they'll spend on each of us. So rest assured.. If you've been disabled all your life, & not paid in much taxes, or you've been a house wife most your life, & your spouse died recently.. there are many others out there that will fall into this, & others.. You'll be very limited in health care coverage. I know, I know.. "i'm a left wing n ut job".. so don't take my word for anything.. or Politicians (we see where thats gotten us) try something unique.. check it out for yourself! If you don't.. and I'm right.. and this bill passes as is.. believe me, its here to stay. And if you have a loved one or one's, described above, & did nothing.. remember you had a chance to stop this as you watch them fade away, as you have to watch it happen.. I'll be one myself.. which is why I'm not taking anyone's word for anything. Remember the Patriot Act? It passed without anyone ever reading the Act, and everyday, I read someone b!tch!ng about their civil liberties being violated, when Police used over reaching powers, given to them in the Patriot Act.. Remember the Bail outs. Ask yourselves.. Who did that actually help? No One I know.. No one was able to keep their jobs here.. do you know of any? And now.. the Porn Industry has they're hands in the Pot.. Our tax money now supports the likes of Hustler. Did anyone else see that coming when these bail outs started?

We need to get rid of the monopoly called, "the two party system" in Washington. Nothing will ever change, until we do that. If, after Barak Obama's election, people don't see that, we're doomed as a free society (or whats left of it)

maybe a milk czar is in order - just in case

tiredofhearingit, you have forgot to mention those employers who will not increase their prices, but cut staff or pay of their staff to make up for it. Businesses know that they cannot continue to increase their prices to make up for the decrease in product sales, so they must either cut production costs, salaries, or jobs. Maybe the milk producer in your example will just stop pasteurizing their milk to save money. That actually is not a bad idea since everyone will be getting free health care anyway.

Chad, argument and debate are synonyms.

Look beyond the “facts” about health care reform & consider the ramifications of the 8% imposed on all business’ payroll to provide for the Public Option. This is a required fee for all business’ that either don’t currently provide h care or want to put their employees on the p option. This fee will be passed on to the consumer – thus creating a super inflation vacuum with no way out of. Consider everyday items that we all buy everyday. Take a gallon of milk for example: how many different employers (businesses) handle this product before it’s sold. Farmer, Farm Hands, Truck drivers, milk processors, packaging, distribution, grocers / conv. Store. This is atleast 7 different companies that handle the product before its sold – all potentially adding up to 8% to each wage package. Suppose all these employees made $10/hr. This would potentially add $ .80 each multiplied by 7 for a total of $5.70 added to the cost of a gallon of milk which today is approx $3.15. I understand 1 gallon is NOT handled per hour by all levels & this particular example is not realistic but its simple & gives you the general idea of what I’m trying to show– it would be impossible to determine that in a simple blog. However, a portion will have to be factored; other products may very well fit into this category at the full 8% per. Keep in mind that all these business’ will additionally be adding Net operating cost to their product because of overhead items such as lawn care, snow removal, maintenance, raw product cost (what they buy to produce their product) etc. – making it even worse. Then to add even more insult to injury, for products not related to groceries, the end consumer will pay additional Sales Tax reaping Billions to the Fed & State Govt.

In the end, how exactly does this public option then help Americans – particularly Low & Middle Income families? The way I see it, we’ll have rationed H Care but won’t be able to buy anything else because of the cost. Then what happens when 8% is not enough & it’s raised (just like all of our other taxes) to 9,10,11%............. Maybe I’m wrong, are there any economic scholars out there that can explain this situation to me.

johnadams - there is a difference between a extreme right winger and those who just want to see some reform. If you can't tell the difference, then are probably in the extreme group. Arguing does not lead to solutions, a healthy debate where all points are heard does. Grown ups in a Democracy debate their points.

RAF - then I must apologize. I have been busy with school starting, so I did not see the post. I then won't assume you were using multiple accounts.

I believe only 3200 has been through mark-up and passed (voted) out of committee.

To Retired Air Force

HR 676 and Single Payer will be coming to the floor of the house for a vote in Sept along with HR 3200. HR 676 and Single Payer are included in the text of HR 3200 as two Amendments - Weiner and Kucinich.

Think about this - HR 676 has at least 85 co-sponsors. HR 3200 - only 8, HR 2520 - only 10.

I also cannot answer yes or no yet as they have not come up with a plan yet. I do feel the people should vote on it.

I cannot answer this poll because I don't know what the final version of this bill contains (and neither does anyone else). But I do support health care reform.

My insurance is okay. All we are going to do is support the insurance companies, if they lower their rates, the doctors lower their rates, and the drug companies, lower their rates we all be able to afford health care.

Why should we pay hard earn money in taxes to cover other people health care cost?

Chad, you said, "[right wingers]are in the minority" in the context of a discussion about health care. I provided data to counter your gratuious assertion. You countered with another gratuitous assertion, rather than providing conflicting data. I can only assume you did this because you have no data to contradict that which I provided. You state opposition to people having an argument and state that we should only provide solutions. Your comments are full of quarreling, not much of which can be considered argumentation. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! The problem you're having with the argument is that you are losing because you can't back up your assertions. I wouldn't accuse you of not being able to read, but I do accuse you of being deficient in the practice of logical argumentation. Grown-ups in a democracy argue their points and then those in the position to implement a policy do so. If policy makers are going to do something with which we disagree, it is incumbent upon us to provide our arguments and try to convince them to do otherwise. That is how we develop solutions in this country. Countries where "argument" is stifled are notorious: N. Korea, Cuba, the U.S.S.R., Nazi Germany. Those who are opposed to the existence of argument are usually either juvenile or tyrannical.

chad - Oh, I get it now, Darwin was making a "joke". Ha Ha.I get it now, I was confused, because he usually only lists "facts" on his posts & if you pay attention to what he says, there's No Way he was joking or being sarcastic - I think he really believes it.
wait, he did make a joke once - that 1 time he made a really funny one about paying taxes on groceries!

Chad I guess you missed my apology posted in another story's comment section. I was wrong assuming you were posting on two different accounts, and I said I was sorry. It turned out to be a poster named aruba playing the sock puppet game of having at least three different accounts.

Mr. Data - that is the problem with the polls. The complexity and multiple versions of this change makes it hard to completely agree with the whole item.

Andre - Do you and RAF share your funny names when you snuggle at night? Or are you one and the same? sock puppet - yeah, I bet you still play with one. I you are influenced by snippets taken out of context, that explains your mental capacity.

Darwin - apparently tired didn't see the sarcastic comparison you had made about polls. There is only one word that can describe t's actions.... Duh!??

Well, apparently JA cannot read yet, so let me reiterate:
1. I said I did not agree with all of what Obama was proposing. Your first mistake.

2. I did not say everyone thinks the health care is OK, just the batty right wingers. Your second mistake.

3. You say snazzy should join a side. You divide it into Republican view or Democrats view. He chooses the American people's view. Sides are for people who like confrontations. Your third mistake.

If people like you would quit looking for arguments and start looking for solutions, the health care debacle would be solved.

Do you support the legislation proposed to reform the nation's health care? 603 at the time I am writing this have responded to you question. 51% say YES and 48% say NO. That's only 99% -- 1% must have said UNKNOWN.

Regardless -- I bet if you asked those 603 people responding - Have you read the legislation proposed to reform the nation's healthcare? OR -- Do you understand the legislation proposed to reform the nation's healthcare? OR Can you tell us specifically how the the legislation proposed to reform the nation's healthcare will lower our healthcare costs, insure more people, and will not interfere with the current health insurance we have?

I bet NO two people asked would respond in the same way. This legislation proposed to reform the nation's healthcare is too complex, too obiquitous, and too undefined to even be considered legislation. It needs much more clarity and exact specificity about how it will work. Then we all could have a real meaningful discussion about it so our Congress can make an informed decision.

PauletteGarin only one of the three you list have been voted on and passed in a committee, so only one can accurately be used for discussion.

darwin; here we go again - you dont like JA using poll numbers because your side is loosing & so you make a stupid attempt at trying to "educate" people into this line of crap you think, YET you go and give poll numbers & suggest GW Bush should have resigned due to poll numbers.

...are overly simplistic in their questioning. - Sounds ALOT like your THINKING.

Sadly, I would think that johnadams of all people would know that polling is NOT voting. Let's stick with REAL democracy and not a "When it suits my interests, I think polls are votes" democracy. Too bad George the idiot didn't resign when his poll numbers were in their 30's and a majority wanted him gone.

I have seen several polls and all are asked out of context - they don't compare plans - and are overly simplistic in their questioning.

Good grief, snazzyj1977, have you ever heard of the law of noncontradiction? You can't be on both sides. You can't be for government run healthcare and against government run healthcare at the same time. Grow up and take a stand.

Chad, YOU are in the minority. Latest Rasmussen poll (MOST accurate pollster in 08 election) has only 43% in favor of Obamacare and 53% opposed. Almost nobody thinks current system is just fine. Paul Ryan has a plan to fix the system without the government running more of health care. Government has screwed it up through the tax code and other regs (like numerous mandates and no buying across state lines) so that normal market forces are not in operation. Also, just 17% believe the plans now in Congress will reduce cost. How's that hope and change workin' for ya now?

Yeah, and you and all the batty right wingers still think health care is just fine. While I don't agree with all of what the Dem's are promoting, I at least see a need for some reform. People like you, who believe in promoting untruths with small clips taken out of context, and promoting division in this country, are the ones drinking the spiked champagne. Thank god losers like you are in the minority.

You're funny. It's simple math: More coverage means more money paid. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you. Private bureaucrats will be replaced by public ones who second-guess everything they can in order to save a dime. Finally, four years from now when the new administration is moving in, they will "suddenly" "discover" that the the projected costs are much higher than they original thought. If you think it's hitting the fan now... however, by then the program will be entrenched and impossible to remove.

Yeah, andre, nice little clips taken out of context as usual. The private insurance person was right, the will be eliminated. That's if they don't change their overcharging, "we don't care about the customers concern" attitude. Yes, single pay does scare the hell out of them and their crooked business practices they have been running for decades.

Check http://apnews.myway.com//article/2009083... The Dotors in Canada tell it like it is.

You mean lying Democrats, who say to the general public that the public option won't lead to single payer, but say to left-wing special interest groups that it will, e.g. Obama, Barney Frank.

The lying Republicans have people running scared....especially the elderly.

Which piece of legislation are you asking about? In the U.S. House of Representatives there at least 3 separate bills: HR 2520 -Paul Ryan's plan, HR 3200 - the "Obama" plan, and HR 676 - The United States National Health Care Act.
If you mean HR 676, I give you an absolute 100% yes vote. HR 676 is Single Payer legislation that would provide 100% GUARANTEED coverage for everyone regardless of job transfer or pre-existing condition. It is the ONLY piece of legislation in congress that guarantees EVERYBODY IN, NOBODY OUT. It would provide expanded and improved Medicare for ALL. In addition, it would save $400 BILLION annually AND eliminate private insurance companies from the health care system. No MORE Corporate Bureaucrats rationing health care deciding who has access and who does not.
Support Single Payer!!!!!

Sorry biggirl, but you, and many others, falsely assume that everyone will be able to keep their present insurance if they are happy with it.

Perhaps you, and they, should take a look at the wording in many labor contracts before you jump on the "They'll keep their insurance" bandwagon.

The question should be: Do you know about the plans being proposed? This question is needed because people, like one here, assume that the reform will have any negative impact on their existing insurance. It won't. They'll keep their insurance, and the reform will help curtail the ever rising price of health care (and thus premia).

My insurance is just fine thankyou.

I knew that question was coming.....LOL