Well the latest news GM would like to do a reverse stock split for every 100 shares owned you would get 1. True sign of desperation. Maybe they'll toss in a couple car air fresheners too sweeten the pot.

bobb1951: makes a valid point regarding the flight of many skilled and unskilled manufacturing jobs out of Wisconsin and the United States. Blame can be shared by all for this current state of affairs. NAFTA signed into law by Clinton headed by Republican controlled Congress back in the 90's was a significant step in the wrong direction for American workers. The continuing push for lower cost goods by the likes of Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowes, Blains, etc and we the American consumer makes it almost impossible to produce these goods on our soil versus China, India, Mexico and even Canada. The Wall Street Greed for profits to satisfy the shareholders pushes CEO's towards foreign nations to produce the goods we want to buy. While at the same time these so called leaders of Industry take large bonus payments in return for cutting jobs and putting money to the bottom line. WTO (world trade organization) and our participation will keep the status quo. Frankly the horse is out of the barn and down the street and any hopes of turning the tide towards the days of old is next to impossible unless there is a real change in the American Consumer and Voter where accountability has to start. Especially now that we’re being hit from all sides and trying to make the devalued dollar stretch. Vote with your money and do not buy at these Big Box Retailers that put American manufacturers and smaller retailers out of business. Vote for change in the ballot box and require our representatives to fight for the old American dream of a stable good paying job. Regarding real jobs for Wisconsin this task needs to be first priority for Doyle and making Wisconsin a top 5 business friendly State will go a long way towards getting everyone jobs other than service sector employment. Waiting for the local companies to expand hiring will not fill the void of losing all that we have in the last 5 years.

Well bobb1951, every one on this comment thread has just talked past you. No doubt you are long gone in cyber space by now. Non-the-less -
What is it about national media, and the media reading schleps in general that allow them to miss the critical fact that if no one is working, or if those of us that are still working, are only making five dollars an hour part time, we can not buy any kind of car?
I guess I have missed the whole "economic collapse" rubric. Perhaps I and bobb1951 should just crawl off and die. We are surely crazy people. We are mistaken. Of course then, according to the writers in this comment thread, one needs no job to buy a car now days. What were we thinking?
And, if you have no job, it is "your own fault." You unemployed and underemployed jerks are just not trying hard enough to survive in this lunatic economy - tongue in cheek.
We are in big trouble as a city and region people. And, it is getting worse every day.
My suggestion to everyone via bobb1951's query, is leave now while you still can.
Especially, leave if you are over 50 years old. If you have the means, run for your life. People in this area that are and were, over 50 years old even during better times, were thrown under the economic bus over and over again.
Oh, I know that pesky observation will just fire all the apologists for this system up until the main vein in their foreheads bursts.

Let me leave you with this. May what ever god you bring with you help you if you do not have the means to leave here, or, if for what ever reason you have decided at over 50 years old to make this place your last stand in life.
Bob Keith
cooldadiomedia.com

golfan, tort reform would save about $12 billion a year , but with health care running at $2.3 trillion(2007) a year, that is only a one half of one percent savings.

I agree chad. The pay gap is almost criminal, but a byproduct of capitlism. The middle class missed out during the 90's boom, but when all boats are rising, there was little complaining. Now that the ship has taken on water, I see a backlash against those at the top in the U.S. For those paying attention, it will be interesting to watch the country change. I hope it's for the better.

1919,
The Buick brand is very popular in China, so GM probably thinks it's necessary to keep it alive in the U.S. so the brand isn't diminished there.

Pontiac is a nich brand, and the only vehicle that is even above average compared to the competition is the G8. Unfortunately, large, rear wheel drive, V8 engined cars aren't enough to sustain a brand. Check out the prices on slightly used models at places like cars.com. Very tempting.

Yeah Zoom, some may move up but very few. Of course the higher you go up the wages should be more, but in the US the bosses make an asinine amount compared to the workers wages. I heard in Japan the top boss in a factory makes 2 to 3x a floor worker. Here, the top boss makes 10x the amount. And what do the worthless pigs do but run a company into the ground and get paid to leave.
A new three-year study deflates the notion of social mobility in the United States. Because the gap between the wealthiest and poorest is larger in the United States than in 30 other developed nations, our ability to improve our economic status is less than that of the United Kingdom. Stated another way: If you’re born in this nation, you have less chance of upward mobility than in England, our stereotyped epitome of the immobile, class-based society.
You can read more of this at:
http://blog.aflcio.org/2008/10/21/mind-t...

You two sure are defensive. I guess I hit a nerve. Conceptual marketing. That's funny.

They (GM) should have dropped Buick before they dropped Pontiac. Pontiac was always the sportier, younger generations vehicle. I was almost going to trade my G6 for a G8, guess not now :(

zoom~ the reason I don't talk about what I do in here is because I'm not advertising and not looking for anyone! Not only that, not everyone is qualified! By qualified I'm talking about honest and ambitious and people oriented. I was simply making a point. You turned this into a pyramid chat session. You're right, there are bad business systems that do what you describe. They use recruiting tactics and put you in a position to do alot of work that benefits the few and not everyone. Sorry, I don't work that way. One other thing regarding the pyramid logic you use.. if corporate america isn't a pyramid, how come owners of companies make more than any of the workers? I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing, but, technically, if I can't make more than the owner of the company I work for, it's a pyramid. It just happens to be legal. Slice it up any way you see fit, it's still a pyramid by definition.

You can blame healthcare cost on one thing
LAWYERS!!! Not all lawyers, but the ones that advertise on TV wondering if you have ever been given this medication or been injected with this contrast material in the past. If you have you may entitled to a large sum of money-- after you give me 50%.

Sorry, Corporate America isn't a pyramid. My Boss makes more money than me because s/he has a skill set that fewer people have. Supply and demand. Neither of you will talk about how you actually make your money, because in the end, you don't supply any value. You simply exploit the people below you.

Yes, the middle class has been screwed, but thank the politicians for making it easier for corporations to exploit us.

First it was the Olds, now the Pontiac, what is next? I did hear a rumor that Saturn might be on it's way out too.

chad, I know where you're coming from. I can't disagree with you in regards to the middle class getting the shaft over the years at the hands of corporate american greed. One thing I've learned though, we all make choices in life and we need to live with them. The Corporate American greed that's run roughshot for so many years happened on OUR watch. The ONLY way we can do something about it is to be proactive and get something done about it. Like I said, change is inevitable whether we like it or not.

zoom- What's wrong? Does do facts scare you? By the way, what is a pyramid scheme anyway?? Is that when you work somewhere and your boss makes more than you and your bosses boss makes more than him and the owners make more than your bosses boss?? Give it a rest.

Darius - everything would be fine if we had something to replace lost manufacturing with something that unskilled labor could do for a wage that could feed a family. But that is not happening. The market economy is about buyers and sellers having equal advantages to get a mutually satisfactory price. With our trade imbalance, countries like Japan can flood our country with vehicles, yet we cannot get a foothold there because of bureaucracy and red tape. Our government has sat by and watched the middle class get screwed over while their fat cat buddies make millions while BEING PAID to move jobs overseas. Hear the giant sucking sound? And people put on blinders to this, just complaining about when people make a fair wage. It's just a shell game with our lives on the line.

Beware of darius' pyramid scheme.

chad, I hear what you're saying, really. The fact is, the industrial age is at an end for the mostpart and giving way to something else. We may not agree with that or believe it's happening but it is. America can thrive if more people are alert and accepting to the changes going on with the global economy. The key is tapping into that global economy and bringing the $$$ back to America! I'm seeing it happen first hand. We can do this.

yes, it must be toyota's vast right wing conspiracy to take over the planet. Back when gas was cheaper (not that it's that expensive now) dealers couldn't give fuel efficient cars away because American's didn't want them.

Part of the problem is brand image, GM doesn't have one except where it pertains to trucks and suv's. Saturns aren't that bad and deserve a second chance, however GM let Saturn languish on the side lines because they listened to YOU, the consumer who was too busy snapping up all those full size trucks and suv's. In fact Toyota, Nissan and Honda all tried to break into the full size truck and SUV market, however none were very successful.

here is another good site that shows Consumer Reports pandering to the Japanese companies.

http://www.freewebs.com/toyotasucks/cons...

Toyotas quality is already slipping as they don't get the automatic stamp of approval from Consumer Reports anymore, even though they just LOVE imports. The bigger you get, the harder it is to build quality with quantity as they will find out.

Darius - I too am looking for change after leaving GM, but to think this country can survive without manufacturing is foolish. We can not just have a service industry to support middle income jobs. Manufacturing is what made the US strong, helped us in times of war, and provided many jobs for many people. Those who think those jobs can go without consequence are loopy.

Zoom - if you read the article you can see faults within CR's reporting. Is it a good guide, maybe, but not all it's "facts' are true. Also, the Prius is not always a hybrid, that baby costs more moola. Of course, Toyota is building plants in Canada now because they don't get quality work out of the cheaper labor hillbillies down south.

I wonder when one of the Japanese companies will start taking over the US Auto Industry.

The Prius is a hybrid. People don't buy it for it's style. And what hybrid did GM have to offer when the Prius debuted?

I'll agree that some of the transplant cars are ugly, but the fact that they still sell illustrates how badly the Detroit 3 screwed up their image.

It's amazing to me the amount of people still in denial regarding the future of not just the auto industry, but, the industrial age. I chose to leave GM in late '06 after 10 years of service because I was blessed enough to have something to fall into that saved me. It wasn't that I was smarter than anyone, however, I did learn the fate of industry in the U.S. in the nick of time and was able to avert what's happening now. It was amazing how many people affected by the plant closing in Janesville were going out of their way to save me from making the move I did! I'm not gloating to say the least! It's in people's best interest to move forward and not wait for help from anyone or any company or govt. aid. Not that people don't deserve to be helped, it's just not looking good that this is going to happen. I encourage people, be proactive about your future, even if it hurts! Change is a bitter pill to swallow, but, it really can be a good thing if you roll with it.

chad, I never said CR was perfect, but their auto reliability data can't be ignored.

All manufactureres must meet the same impact standards in the U.S. And you should know that the safest brand isn't American.

Already in control of government, possessing the technologies of private enterprise and the resources of governance, holding all the mechanisms by which to brainwash and manipulate the populace, their wallets thick with the Almighty Dollar, the tentacles of power and control omnipotent and omnipresent, corporatists have all the ingredients deeply entrenched to enact the next step in America’s history.
It is they, the power hungry and corrupted, those addicted to greed and wealth that cannot stand democracy and must, therefore, try to destroy it. For real democracy, and not the illusion meant to convey in the masses a sense of participation, is a threat to those seeking to rule by authority and through absolute control of the nation. To them the will of the citizenry is an obstacle; a government of, by and for the people is a hindrance, because in real democracy the population chooses, decides and controls the path a country will take. In a real democracy the rights of minorities are protected, the freedom of everyone is guaranteed..... "VV"

I, on the other hand, have owned GM products for the last 6 years and regret it every day. All junk, and no ad campaign will ever convince me otherwise. Direct experience tells me that my foreign vehicles and my Fords, for that matter, were far superior products for the money. I'm sorry to see GM go under for the people that worked there, but I'll never buy another.

Yeah, they all need some style, but the Prius looks like ...well, we can't use those words on this site!
GM's marketing has been better this last year, the quality has been good or great for some product lines. (Usually see an increase when the new product changes came out). I also do know that the majority of assemblers in those plants want to and tried their best to build world class quality, as we do know what is at stake. Even with managements interference, we still built some nice vehicles. I own a GM car, have had it for 8 years now. I just love it, and it has been very dependable.

But you would agree that they all fall in the ugly class. The Aveo maybe even the ugliest class. Like I said, I've never bought foreign, so don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the issue. I just feel GM has done a terribly poor job of marketing and quality control. It's obviously killed them and it's really too bad.

sorry, that was 2 different points. one being American quality the last 5 to 8 (depending on product line) years is up (yes, they were a little late to the game). And two, ya get what ya pay for . Cheap is cheap.

spark - the Aveo is way less expensive than the Prius, and with the money savings estimated you could drive 72,000 miles@ $3.00 a gallon for a break even point. The Volt will do more than the Hybrid Prius, and you may see the price less than that. That was just pre-production guesses.

Chad - You're saying they've matched quality because they make a stronger vehicle? That may be the case, but I don't see where their overall reliability has matched that market.

rooster - I don't think people are hacks because they choose foreign vehicles. People want quality. Not necessary power, etc. I've never owned a foreign vehicle. I've owned Chevy trucks and yes, they get good mileage and have good power. However, I had mine in the shop three times within a year of the brand new purchase for quality issues. GM has also stopped the leasing program on the larger vehicles and is going to lose a ton of business if they don't reinstate that program. People cannot afford to make $500 car payments.

Spark - many US made vehicles have matched or surpassed the quality of the Japanese made. Of course, I know someone with a foreign brand car that ran into an american made vehicle (which was not moving)and had WAY more damage than the american made vehicle. You can have your tin can and hope you don't hit anything bigger than a mosquito.

Zoom - Consumer Reports is not the end all , perfect judge. Check this site out to see reasons why they are not perfect:
http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

Chad - I don't think that's the case. The prius may indeed be ugly, but it's no uglier than chevy's Aveo, Spark and Volt. Really no difference other than the Prius gets better gas mileage for less $$. The Volt has a ridiculous sticker price of $45,000. They are already missing the boat.

a friend of mine bought a honda ridgeline. he didn't even drive, for example, a colorado or ford product. the ridgeline was average in all facets. the colorado rides and drives better and has more power. he, like so many other hacks, is leaning anti u.s. everything.

BigRoadie - I agree, they have lacked in pizazz for years. But I think when Bob Lutz came they changed some of that thinking.
But I also can't help think that if GM came out with something as butt ugly and cheap as the prius, the media and everyone would have slammed GM.

localboy - You used a very important phrase in your comment regarding the japanese market. "Well built."

That says enough right there.

...Also, women are involved in the purchasing decision for more than 50% of the cars sold today. Your gender bias is an illustration of what's wrong with old Detroit.

localboy, Consumer Reports isn't "foreign biased". Their reliability data is second to none. Don't blame the messenger for the Big 3's inability to compete on reliability with the transplants during the 80's and 90's. Also, blaming the customer (young men) is never a good business model.

Unfortunately, even when GM starts the Chapter 11 process, the government will be providing the debtor financing for reorganization, since no one else will. This isn't going to be cheap either way, but at least Chapter 11 creates and end point.

Obama - quick send them another few billion so they can mismanage to stay afloat for a couple of more weeks.

There will come a tipping point with healthcare where the insurers and providers will price themselves out of the market. Only the wealthiest will then be able to check into the hospital. It will take an entity as big and powerful as government to force the healthcare industry (pharmaceuticals included) to get it's costs in line with economic reality. Everyone, especially employers like GM know the healthcare system is broken. Fixing healthcare (including all the ineffeciency of multiple payers) will go a long way toward improving the employment picture. Who believes Mercy and Dean will continue their double digit revenue growth when GM retirees no longer have insturance to pay for the joint replacements. Does anyone see the writing on the wall? It should be obvious to all that the old ways of employer provided health insurance and pensions are crumbling all around. I think we should broker the best future deal possible even if it means letting the government slap the healthcare industry into economic feasibility.

Since when is the government in the business to run a auto company? Quit looking to the government for bailouts. The rest of us sure are not getting any help from them. And whatever the government does, who do you think pays for it...you & me!!!
GM did this to themselves with their high pay and benefits beyond belief. It just all caught up with them.

Where do you start with the automakers? It would be shortly after that 1967 GTO the government got involved in the auto business. It has been down hill ever since for the Big 3. Someway, the Japanese have been able to survive off of ugly, cheap, well built automobiles as our society has dumbed down to the whole auto purchase experience. In the 50's and 60's, you had young men who were interested in autos, that were making the purchase decision. Now you have young men who don't know, so they turn to the foreign biased Consumer Report, and other journals that tell them what to purchase. We all are responsible for the collapse of the auto industry.

The hits just keep coming. We all better Hope the Government doesn't take the common stock option. When a company files Chapter 11 the common stock holder value is wiped out meaning total loss. With GM burning money at a rate of 2-2.6 billion a month and no real improvement in the economy for a few years meaning car sales will not improve much until then. Let GM fail and go into Chapter 11 now. Sell the assets and move on. We just keep loaning money another 2 billion last week to this zombie of a company.

I wonder if this announcement means that GM will not be coming back to Janesville after all?

Red

Before we look at insurance, we need to look at the cost of medical services. Those costs are rising at rapid speed, mostly to pay for all the new additions/hospitals that seem to be popping up. Do you think that new parking ramp at Mercy wasn't added into service fees?

Anyone who thought GM wasn't going to be here was wearing blinders. For years, those people who haven't worked for GM have said, they are getting paid too much and some day it will catch up with them. That time is now.

You are correct that employers will be dropping benefits such as retiree coverage or pensions, but then after what happened with Delta Airline, anyone who thought their benefits were untouchable were wearing blinders.

GM will cut what it has to to stay in business, and that will include pay cuts to those who are lucky enough to still have a job. That is the reality.

Spark: I believe the GM board and other execs have known exactly how serious of a situation this was for a long time. How long, I'm not sure. However, getting rid of Wagoner was the smartest thing GM ever did! Talk about someone (Wagoner) not doing their homework and handing in assignments too late! He believed his only assignment was the foreign market!

One thing is for certain though, gas prices and a credit market freeze only exacerbated the situation!

Where will the money come from to pay for nationalized health care? Another tax for employers and employees? Where do we save any money? One great thing is the government will be in charge of your health care. They do such a great job just look at the VA. The place to start is Tort reform!

Yep... Ya'll think healthcare is expensive now...just wait until its free!!!

The best thing the government can do for employers is figure out a way to provide some kind of national health insurance. Employers can no longer afford to provide health insurance and remain financially strong. The ever-rising cost of insurance is driving employers to shed employees by the millions. If employers no longer paid for health insurance you can bet they would start hiring in droves. In the meantime expect to see more part time work (in order to avoid paying health benefits). And expect to see more employers file bankruptcy to get rid of their retiree healthcare obligations. A year ago Janesville never thought they’d see the plant close. If anyone believes they’ll have GM provided healthcare throughout their retirement then they probably also believe in Santa Claus.

This just proves that GM was in a lot bigger trouble than people assumed. Bigger than the Janesville plant, bigger than the blame on the gas prices and so on. Someone wasn't doing their homework and the assignment was handed in much too late.

Ahh. More great news for a Monday morning