Outside of spending large amounts of money SuperDave, Pastor Fogderuds options are very limited. Besides that is money better spent in food for some unfortunate persons mouth opposed to an attorney. With that said I was hoping that AmishBob would go on and spread his lies more so I could have him help to facilitate an appeal financially. The smartest thing AmishBob did last week was to quit pounding on his keyboard. From the sounds of it the Good Pastor lost his case I can only speculate why having limited information. Not being an attorney myself it is rather fruitless effort on my part but I would have hoped that one could have stepped up to the plate to help a man who has UNDOUBTEDLY helped so many others.

AmishBob: Your silence is deafening. I have to assume you have nothing to back up your previous comments.
deltafox5674: You are off-base. This appears to me to be a gross misunderstanding, nothing more.
JozeMoses, Helpmeet: I hope you can meet in the real world! Is there a way to appeal this travesty of justice?

"Ever hear that newspapers can be wrong?"
The police report, and the subsequent conviction, lead me to believe the paper...You follow your bible don't you? Isn't that believing in what you read?

Helpmeet, thanks for the kinds words. The keywords here were "pastor," "kids," and "arrest." After that it was a downhill battle with a group of close minded individuals whom trust in EVERYTHING the "authorities" tell them. I have made your husband's acquaintance in the past several times so I need no explanation that there is NOTHING hostile or uncooperative about him. I have yet had the pleasure of meeting you however that needs to change. It is difficult for me being agnostic and busy :O) Rest assured Mrs. Fogderud, there are those that will defend you and your husbands right to spread a positive message whether or not we believe in the historical accuracy of the Bible. Children today need guidance more than ever regardless of peoples opinions over religion and quite possibly The Overflowing Cup ministries may be better served by opening a skatepark in Janesville as another venue to reach this demographic.

At this point in the "debate" we may be better served writing our online aliases on name stickers and meeting at Josiah's Place for real conversation over coffee as opposed to entertaining the rhubarbs who would prefer to hide behind a keyboard to spread their spiteful and inaccurate assumptions. To those of you that thought before typing thanks for entertaining my long winded posts. Some things are to important to let go.

I am the spouse of Pastor Fogderud. I want to thank JozeMozes for your sticking up for my husband. My husband has contributed to the Stateline area as a listening ear for those in need. My husband has great respect for the police, he has worked with many in the past and also was a police chaplain for 11 years.
What happened in Janesville was an unfortunate misunderstanding. My husband in trying to assist a gentlemen and tend to his needs as a Diabetic has paid a heavy price. Dave is a very friendly outgoing individual to every age group with teenage grandchildren and is used to speaking to youth. He had no evil intent, was in a tiny two passenger Toyota pick up with bucket seats, filled with furniture in the back when he spoke to the teenagers. My husband was told after going through the drive through to go around to the the other side to wait for his fish sandwiches. He saw the boys skateboarding. He called to them, they walked away. The truck was parked in front of plate glass windows. There were no bushes tall enough or thick enough to hide in, I took pictures. Janesville has had a rash of predators in the past few years. I believe Dave got caught in the aftermath of this. Janesville police are very vigilant, I am sure that influenced the officer in the manner in which he stopped my husband. They are highly trained, very automatic in their responses which can be a benefit and yet a detriment. My husband did not vilify the police, he merely complained that he felt that they were overly agreesive, He has a right to do that. When stopped he did not know that anyone called in a 911 call. He did identify himself to the 1st officer as Pastor Dave taking someone to detox....the officer did not ask for his driver's license. Dave thought it was a traffic stop. The other 2 officers arrived at the scene a few minutes after the stop...they never saw the initial contact. I know my husband, I have taught abuse issues in a school district as a nurse in the past, I know what to look for, know human nature. I also know that teenagers do not always tell the whole truth. Ask any teacher or principal in the school system.
I do not understand why people do not look at the whole picture, but would rather believe the worst.
I am concerned that in this age of fear, of Nancy Grace and other TV watch dogs, that we now assume guilt. Those on the jury would have difficulty relating to what my husband has done for the past 35 years and the sacrifices that he has made. Perhaps he did not act wisely, as he is very naive, but that does not make him a criminal.

JozeMozes case closed .

rr1box14, what is unreasonable about asking the police what you did wrong? I perfectly understand the need for an officer to protect himself but it would appear Dave Fogderud was not attempting to flee as a criminal might. Having your hand on the stick shift and steering may be of concern but at which point do we violate someones civil liberties? THIS IS A REAL ISSUE for all of us! All the officer would have needed to state is that he was investigating a possible child enticement concern and that Dave Fogderud needed to comply with his efforts to do so. It is amazing how quickly you can defuse a situation by treating people with the respect and dignity they deserve until the investigation is over.

Having read more about this case then I wanted, thanks to AmishBob and his rubbish it is clear that all parties made mistakes. If you knew Dave you would realize that there is nothing "macho" about his demeanor. There again a pre-conceived notion concerning a minister wearing a cowboyish hat?

Once the arresting officer made his decision the detectives handling the case should have looked at THE FACTS. Which clearly no one has as ONLY the obstruction charge remained of the original 4 charges?

Quite possibly I am missing something as it is clear there are only two sides to this story so far. Where is the truth?

If Fogderud would have done what he was told this all could have been avoided . but no he had to be macho man.

AmishBob: At the risk of getting in the middle of your p.match (!) let me ask a different question. Is there something about Mr. F. that would cause a reasonable parent to be concerned about this incident? And please don't ask me (and potentially hundreds of other people) to research it. Just say specifically what it is you have not yet divulged. You can add any links, disclaimers, etc. that you might feel are necessary. Thank you!

RUSerious, its possible that sometimes you only read posts where I appear to be raving out at someone. But if you read all the appropriate previous posts you'd see that the thread always begins with comments of the manner of the one you just read. What appears to be rave-outs are responses to posts from the likes of low-brow commenters like lovestoscrap.

gazettefan,
We are miles apart on how we view (my) faith, but your comments, while not exactly acquiescence (nor are they required to be for me to respect your view, too) were very civil and I appreciate them. I wish that would have been the only post I'd read from you on the subject, I could have been more objective about what you have to say.
(That was short-I MUST have left something out.)

Bob lets cut to the chase and recap:

"AmishBob stated - Do some research and then you'd understand why some people are leary of him being near our children!!!!"

You offered CCAP as evidence of why one should be "leary" of the pastor. Nothing there besides Code Violations and Tax Issues.

You cite evidence and offer only hear se. Do you understand what that is?

"AmishBob stated - Try looking up articles either online or at the library (you do know what a library is?). You will find code violations, tax issues and other things."

What other things AmishBob? I have read this whole thread repeatedly. I have read the Gazette article. I have read the Gazette Articles online dating back to Tuesday, August 14, 2007, http://www.madison.com/wsj/mad/top/44907... , http://www.beloitdailynews.com/articles/... and finally http://www.wisconsinchristiannews.com/vi...

Now I have searched CCAP and the internet but do not know of which specific resource you refer to at the library sir. As far as the "other" one can only surmise. As such your ip address and your identity is easily discoverable and I plan on spending tomorrow pursuing YOUR libelous claims against Pastor Dave since he cannot afford to or until you provide us your source of information or publicly apologize. Good day to you.

Obviously it has done no good to tell you to read what has been posted. Nothing that I can write will satisfy you. Your repeated asking of the same question will never be satisfied, because you won't accept the answer. You've written of how badly JPD investigates, but yet you are even less likely to do any yourself. Google is not investigating. Enjoy your tapping on your keyboard. It seems all you can do. By the way, where I work has been quite amused by your comments. Keep up the comedy work, maybe someday you can make a career out of it. Good Day!!! :)

Once again more diversionary insults initiated by you AmishBob. This is childish already can you state facts and not rhetoric? ANSWER THE QUESTION!

Can you simply point out what it is about Mr.Fogderud's tax and code issues that points to some deviant behavior?

What is the basis of your allegation?

Now I understand. I've been conversing with someone that goes around saying Naaaa Nanna Naa Na when he doesn't have any facts. Everything I've said and written you haven't bothered to read. Must be that you are incapable of basic functions. If that's the best you got, you couldn't fight your way out of a wet paper bag. Your arguments have been insulting, derogatory, and at times threatening. All I said, was do some research. Since you have sat in front of your keyboard all day, I know that you have done absolutely none. But that wouldn't matter to you. If your mind were anymore closed, the blood wouldn't flow past your neck.

Last chance to save face AmishBob. Sometimes we seem more intelligent when we say nothing. I call your bluff son and see your diversionary tactics:

again I quote: "Some people have short memories regarding Fogderud and his Overflowing Cup Ministries. Do some research and then you'd understand why some people are leary of him being near our children!!!!"

Back up your statement with A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G!

Can you simply point out what it is about Mr.Fogderud's tax and code issues that points to some deviant behavior?

No? You lose :O)

WOW!!! What insightful information you have. Did you have to put your beer down to come up with all that or was it just a good belch? It seems to me that poor David was found GUILTY by a jury of his peers, or are you now going to tell us that those very jurors are not his peers. So it follows that they also proved me right, but you can seem to follow any sort of logic. You are a waste of perfectly good air, and a fine producer of CO2!!!!

Poor little AmishBob insulted by a reference to a delicious summer vegetable that stars as a main ingredient in Pies and Cakes.

Whats insulting is people like you who make baseless claims, again I quote: "Some people have short memories regarding Fogderud and his Overflowing Cup Ministries. Do some research and then you'd understand why some people are leary of him being near our children!!!!"

Back up your statement with A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G! You tried CCAP. You obviously didn't read it! LMAO!

By now you have tried google. Did you find anything?

Can you simply point out what it is about Mr.Fogderud's tax and code issues that points to some deviant behavior?

To the other thoughtful posters first I apologize for entertaining AmishBob. Admittedly his ignorance so engaged me that I overlooked my own enlightenment. I firmly feel the police have too many powers and are often times obligated to serve the letter of the law throwing all reason to the wind. Some officers and departments are given some leeway in letting common sense precede procedure. I applaud you!
No one sees any fault in the actual story? We would rather focus on personal feelings opposed to our constitution that protects these freedoms and supercedes silly local laws such as obstruction and disorderly conduct. What crime was committed and where was probable cause concerning child enticement? Is the Janesville Gazette doing it's job reporting the WHOLE story? Doe's anyone really know? I would love to see the dash and/or uniform cam. I know enough police officers in and out of service myself to know that their patience wears thin in dealing with crime and criminals in general and go into superiority (do what I say now)mode opposed to remaining objective and in public service mode. I do not envy them these days but freedoms are worth dying for.

I firmly feel that while the dispatched officer made his choice it was a failure up the chain to drop a senseless charge. There again I admit I have not seen the evidence but let the punishment fit the crime!

This is not a religious issue proartist. Save it for those threads. I am agnostic. Knowing Mr.Fogderud and his LONG STANDING contributions to the down trodden in our community I applaud and am amazed at the mans sacrifice. I wish it were so simple to believe in anything as strongly as Dave. This has little to do with this case however unless you know the man I realize and you would understand his demeanor and character and INSTANTLY realize something was not fully reported. Kind of like if the Chicago PD insisted that your grandmother jacked someones car. WHAAAAAAAAAT?

As with every other religious figure who has ever been caught in questionable or illegal behavior (not "walking the talk"), it always comes down to: blame the media, blame mythical anti-Christian efforts, blame those who supposedly "don't know the facts", blame over-zealous police and/or the government, blame the victim...or even blame insert-the-name-of-any-secular-entity. It would be very refreshing if, just once, those in leadership for their religious organizations and involved in less-than Christian behavior could take responsibility for their own actions without them and their "flock" always placing blame elsewhere.

Thanks, SuperDave.

RUSerious, Complements to you for your writing. You're very eloquent.

There may very well be some clergy who live out their lives and careers with a positive effect that exceeds their negative effect.

If I generalize or seem to generalize about religion it's because I can't support a belief system that is so clearly based in irrationality. Even the good clergy and good adherents of a system that is based in irrationality are culpable for perpetuating the bad that comes out of that system.

Moderate christians contribute to the danger of fundamentalism. Moderates attempt to produce more moderates but in doing so sometimes produce more fundamentalists. And so, the danger of fundamentalist is perpetuated. And moderates themselves are ripe for the dangers of extremism when they are mixed with certain historical and social forces. Hence my reference to Nazi Germany.

The good that believers do comes from their humanity. They are capable of doing the same good without promoting an irrational belief system. Morality is an adaptive phenomenon that developed as humans evolved.

JozeMozes: When you don't have anything to backup your arguement, insult the writer!!!! Obviously, I proved the definition of insanity, arguing with someone with a closed mind and expecting a different result. Everyone who has wrote in with the facts must all be wrong and only your 'personal facts' are right. Enough said!!!!

JozeMozes: Let me see, I proved my point but you seem to keep telling me I don't have the facts. It sounds like you and Dave are good friends and are out here to threaten anyone who doesn't agree with you. Just remember; "The Truth will set you free". Not the Truth that your short sighted view point expouses. You are still shooting blanks.

AmishBob the ammunition you requested was already provided by you, CCAP, with which you have no answer and already shot yourself in the foot. Unfortunately you cannot stick the bleeding stump in your mouth. Here let me bandage it for you.

As a father of two small children I would not want a stranger to approach my children either. However it is not a crime to do so. There are always three sides to every story and I do not know the details but my testimony is to the selfless man who has dedicated his life to helping those whom society has cast aside and attempt to lift them up.

It is ironic how insecure and paranoid society is to label someone as a suspect but then avoid the hard reality of spending more tax dollars to keep incarcerated the very animals that prey on the helpless.

DeltaFox, "the original article explains that Dave was taking a man to the hospital for ALCOHOL DETOX. So by educated guess, one could assume that he would be a drunk, or he wouldn't need DETOX would he?"

So by Dave having a man in his vehicle who needed rehabilitation somehow implicates him further. Loosen your girder, it is cutting off blood supply to the brain.

Come on now Amish, if your going to make an attempt to libel Dave you will need to prove that code violations for the many structures that the Over Flowing cup have resided in or the tax issues him and his church have somehow relate to a clear and present danger to our children as you implied, Quote AmishBob: "Some people have short memories regarding Fogderud and his Overflowing Cup Ministries. Do some research and then you'd understand why some people are leary of him being near our children!!!!"

You do understand that your ip address is logged and baseless public accusations have consequences sometimes right?

uh, deltafox? Ever hear that newspapers can be wrong? Oh, you're probably one of those that believes everything he reads. I should have guessed.

But great about janesvillemom! Then what am I doing justifying MY opinion to YOU!
Begone!
LMAO

Mikki,
I believe that janesvillemother is the parent of one of the boys in question, so she doesn't need to justify her opinion to you of all people...Also if you poll every parent in the city I would bet that 99% of them would have a problem with having a STRANGER approach their child for ANYTHING, including talking to them about RELIGION.

uh Mikki,
you should check your facts, the original article explains that Dave was taking a man to the hospital for ALCOHOL DETOX. So by educated guess, one could assume that he would be a drunk, or he wouldn't need DETOX would he? And your going to attack me on that nuance, forgetting everything about DAVE talking to kids he had no business talking to?

janesville mother, Dave NEVER asked any children to get into his truck.
If you even KNEW Dave, and knew of his very successful youth program, you'd understand why he thought, perhaps, he could just invite any teens to a Christian concert.
Those people who think it's wrong have perverted minds.

deltafox, first of all, who the heck are you to call ANYONE a drunk? Did it SAY the man was intoxicated? Or under the influence? It said he was taking him to get some help.
Help that with your judgmental attitude you really should seek.

Ugh, I hate typo's. I would have been proud of my kids had they *known* enough to call the police.

gazettefan, that's where you misunderstand-I am not tired of YOU, nor did I say that, and certainly we have had the same opinions in some cases. I do not define you by just the opinions I disagree with. That is what YOU do. You define anyone or anything that has this "religiosity" as bad. You attack anything on the subject as if there were no redeeming qualities. In my "rather long post" (but you have me beat X 10 in quantity:-), I was kind of asking you if you didn't see any redeeming qualities in any clergy, the church, or aspects of religion in the lives of the many they serve (whether those people have religion themselves or not), for example the charitable works of the church. My "little brown church" analogy just meant that all churches are not in it for the grand lifestyle and riches you attribute to them, nor for the gay or pedophile sex you seem to ascribe to the clergy in general. I can easily see that there are fakes and slime in any and all professions; therapists, teachers, cops, and clergy, too.
I also noted in the long post you mentioned that there are dedicated professionals who give much of their lives to what they believe in. But you can't see that (as far as the clergy), so you don't want others to, either. It's like you are tearing down my family, and I am just defending them (wouldn't you?)-and I am not the least bit a fanatic, but maybe that is what you seem to me. I wouldn't bother if I I was "tired of you", just tired of your being entirely closed-minded and you don't even know ME. None of those things you attribute to religion defines me.
That's all.

The charges in court have nothing to do with religion. He spooked a couple of kids enough for them to call 911. The kids didn't know who he was! I'm sure the call came in as a possible child enticement and the cops didn't know who he was when they were looking for him, in all probability, right? I'm sure they ran his plate and got the name of the registered owner, but do all cops know everyone? Of course they don't. Don't try saying he was pulled over because of what he does for a living. He wouldn't cooperate with the police. If I were a cop, I would have handled it in the exact same way. I'm a parent and I would have been proud of my kids had they knew enough to be scared and call the police.

The Janesville Gazette seems to have some of the information incorrect. There was never a mention to the boys about a concert or spreading the word of God and it was not reported as a kidnapping.
This man asked the boys to get in his truck and kept trying to talk to them as they were walking away. When the JPD was called the boys simply told them what happened.
The rest of the story and the charge against him has to do with what happened once he was stopped by the police.
People should not being calling teenagers over to their vehicle for any reason. As a parent I'm proud of the way my son handled the situation and would want him to do the same thing again.

razorsharp: You said "gazettefan, I attribute your irrational behavior to your hate....and (you) have no conscience, much like that of a terrorist".
Thanks for making me laugh out loud. HA!! Comparing gazettefan to a terrorist! I am still laughing, thank you!!
Although you may not agree with gazettefan because he is an atheist, you have to give him credit for some of the most reasoned, thoughtful posts on this forum. I see no hate in his posts. And I REALLY don't see him flying planes into buildings, performing suicide bombings, or beheading anyone LOL!

"Dave wasn't asking the boys about their 'private business'."
...uh, BULL!
First of all, a MINOR child's religion is PRIVATE, and it is NOT ACCEPTABLE for a grown adult to be talking to a child about his religion with the ABSENCE of the child's PARENTS! Everyone has a right to be outraged, I should be able to send my children to Burger King and not worry about them being stalked by some predatory preacher who feels it is his business, WHILE TAKING A DRUNK MAN TO DETOX, to talk to children about his religion.

Matthew...., how brainless to accuse the Gazette of being anti-christian. Your real problem here is that you and your spiel can't tolerate the light of day.

razor....., there are facts and reasons in my posts that you could respond to with your own facts and reasons. But you do not. All you do is toss baseless insults. You tap-out easily.

Why is this even a featured article in the Gazette? The gazette seems pretty intent on doing their part to cripple the Christian nation. I understand, it pays good and attracts the less desirable element to the blog sites. People like gazettefan etc.

JozeMozes: I see your research ended right at point. Unimformed people tend to follow the masses. Try looking up articles either online or at the library (you do know what a library is?). You will find code violations, tax issues and other things. I'm sure in your mind it was all 'religious persecution'. Take a look on the CCap site and you might have a better insight.

The point is you shouldn't have to kiss the police departments ass to prove yourself innocent. The burden of proof is with the state remember? Let us really think for a moment how easy it would be in court to technically prove an obstruction charge. We are all guilty of something and I applaud Dave giving his resources to charitable causes ESPECIALLY in these brutal times as opposed to an attorney to clear his good name. He had his day in court, accepted the consequences and moved on. Please don't demonize the man with hear se or religious opinions. Do you know him?

AmishBob any proof? Good now stop your EVIL slander.

gazettefan I agree with you mostly when it comes to humanity and religion and you are obviously much more well versed than I. However I strongly feel that ANYONE should be able to practice and preach (outside of school and government) whatever the hell they want to. For this right many have given their lives and so would I.

RuSerious, how can you equate the behavior of the police (and its chaplaincy) with the behavior of Fogderud at the time of the incident?

The police on the scene weren't pastors, Fogderud was. And it had already been determined that his religiosity is excessive.

Your reasoning here is consistent with an important part of your long post on the other story:

You spoke glowingly of the peaceful little brown churches in the valley. Well, in Nazi Germany they little brown churches in the valleys there too. And the clergy and the members of those churches took part in the extermination of 10 million people including 6 million Jews.

That clergy and those people were fueled by hatred for outsiders that is the criminal dynamic of the church.

By the way, Hitler never renounced his Catholicism nor his christianity. And he was never excommunicated by the Vatican.

If you were "tired" of me before this post, you must be thoroughly exhausted now! Take a nap. Try to gather your thoughts.

JPD, as most if not all police departments, have a chaplaincy program. Do you attribute their actions also to the irrationality of their religiosity?
(I'm not defending either side here, because I don't know anything about this particular case. I'm just tired of your (gazettefan's) seeking out the stories about, and tearing down any and all facets of stories related to people who "have religion", just because they exist-or even bringing it into unrelated stories just for the sake of tearing it down. YOU have an obsession)

deltafox, Dave wasn't asking the boys about their 'private business'. It's people like you, that word things that way, that get people's minds rolling in the wrong direction.
I know Dave personally, and he really believes in his work. He not confrontational at all...perhaps a bit persistant with his questions, but never mean or threatening.
Brewernut is right. He's been a target for over 20 years.

Some people have short memories regarding Fogderud and his Overflowing Cup Ministries. Do some research and then you'd understand why some people are leary of him being near our children!!!!

The police procedure was proper and professional. I attribute Fogderud's illegal behavior to the irrationality of his religiosity.

This is more about the destruction of constitutional rights than anything. Janesville PD, and city officials have been targeting Fogderud for years. After all that JVL has put Dave through I would be leary too about giving info, I really would.

"Brother Fogderud has done more good in his life than many of you put together."
...Except of course, cooperate with police when asked for identification, and get hostile when asked why he questioned underage boys about their private business.

I totally agree Proartist!

The charges had nothing to do with his interaction with the boys, but with how he didn't respond to the officers requests. There was no investigating to be done. If you're pulled over, for any reason, listen to what the cops say and do what they ask. Don't be confrontational or you'll get yourself into trouble. If he had turned his car off right away, not had his hands on the gear shift and steering wheel, and given his name he probably would have avoided all of this trouble he got himself into. I suggest he not approach children from his car anymore. I would have been freaked out too if I were those boys!

JozeMozes: I wonder how many would feel the same as you if Fogderud had been preaching Buddhism, Scientology, or a Moslem faith! Thanks JPD for being alert and taking care of our children's civil liberties to be left along and not intimidated by religious fanatics.

JozeMozes- Don't you mean Boooo citizens of the jury? After all, they are the ones who sat through the testimony and heard the evidence. Apparently they agreed with the JPD. Do you know both sides? Juries sometimes get it wrong but usually they get it right. We were there when it happened or at the trial. I give the jury the benefit of the doubt.

Talk about ABSOLUTELY ridiculous!

Boooooooooooooooo JPD.

I remember when police knew how to investigate and were truly public servants.

Brother Fogderud has done more good in his life than many of you put together. Shame! Hell he makes this agnostic want to embrace Christianity.

Lord this area sickens me the more I live here.