Here's my opinion.....
I a part of the "younger generation" and I do not go to church. One of the reasons I do not is because I come from a family of phony christians. They put their kids in private schools, and thought that made them a christian. Most of what happens at the school is people thinking they are above others just because they have money. A lot of the christians I have met are extremely hypercritical. They are the first to judge someone. I do belive in a higher power. I do believe in doing right by people and being kind and fair. I do believe in the power of prayer. I do not believe I have to go to church and pay them for me to believe or practice this. When I have churches knocking on my door telling me gay people are villians and I need to believe what they believe it's really hard to stay convinced that the whole organized religion thing is what's right for my family and I. Fighting about what one believes is ridiculous. It should be pretty simple. Be kind, be fair, help others, respect others, etc. Maybe if more of the religions and their churches thought of the example they are setting for today's youth it would be believable and we would be more easily convinced. Hate, anger, and judgement has nothing to do with being a good christian. Using the fact that we all sin is not a reasonable excuse for these things either.

As for the abortion, I am pro-life. BUT I am also realistic. What a president believes should not matter. Abortion being banned would be a disaster in this day and age. Maybe setting laws where after you repeatedly screw up as a parent, this right is taken from you seems more reasonable to me.

Wretched.........., how many unwanted babies or children have you adopted?

Big surprise that Wisconsin is less Christian just look who has gotten into the White House. Our country let alone Wisconsin will become more and more less Christian if people do not respect life more. Ah yes, abortion, the elephant in the room that nobody want to talk about. When it was made lawful to end anothers life simply because it was inconvenient to raise the child our country as a whole took a turn for the worse. Most people who follow the president do not want to held accountable for their actions as well. See the similarity? I am sure you do.

andre....., ask me your question on this blog.

http://gazettextra.com/news/2009/feb/23/...

I can't go back and respond to every point and question point-for-point. But I can say this:

All of billnewbie's spiel here, including 'grace' and the 'sovereign god', is just a bunch of made up stuff. It doesn't apply to the real world. It's only a way for him and others to separate themselves from everybody else. It's primitive tribalism.

It's their own tribalism and all their other primal instincts that they can't face and come to terms with. They live with that inability to face the truth by projecting their darkness onto non-believers. Non-believers have come to terms with the full nature of their existence and have the intelligence to reject the childish but dangerous fantasies of judeo-christian-islamic belief.

Believers allow this stuff to stunt their intelligence. They reject the science of evolution and then attempt to counter and destroy that science with junk-science. This is barbaric. Believers have continually stood in the way of scientific and medical advancements and in so doing have delayed those advancements by centuries. Whenever they belatedly accept advancements they claim those advancements are a gift of god.

They are taking a free ride on the backs of all humans who are intelligent and courageous. Shame on them!

Good point, foolonthehill.

Honestly, Gazettefan, we should be encouraging mcdlear to post as much ignorant blather as gazettextra will allow. He seems totally oblivious to the fact that he is singlehandedly building a much better case for atheism than any atheist ever could!

mcdlear1: what is your claim as to the official definition of the word "atheist"?
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And to whoever complained about my mention of helping other people, I was responding to the accusation that I don't help other people. I didn't broach the issue.

footonthehill: I stongly encourage, emlore, or whatever you want ot call it, to read my entire before determing my lack of knowledge of atheism. Then look up atheism up in the dctionary that we all use. I am basing my opininons on that definition. Now if you intend on changing the definintion of atheism to more accurately depict or justify your lifestyle or your "belief system" please let those in the dictionary world know about it. However in doing so you will make the concept of atheism unclear or irrational. Either though is unpallatable. Where as in christianity it is clear as a bell. Once again read the entire post before speaking, don't want you to look like a fool.

Limited ability to reason?! I'll show you my limited ability to reason, pal! I'm going to repost my post from the other blog!

----------------

billnewbie, thanks for reposting your "sovereign" post. Ever since you first posted it I've been kicking around the idea of reposting it myself. When I felt reluctant to repost it, it was because I thought to do so would be cruel. I considered the fact that you regretted posting it because it is incredibly condemning of god, Christ, and religion.

I guess now it's OK for me to repost it on occasion whenever the content of these blogs demand it. I hope there are no copyright complications.

Note that you and the "sovereign" post concede that god/Jesus allows people to die. To allow someone to die when you have the ability to prevent that death is murder -murder by the laws of every or almost every nation on earth.

And what god/Jesus also allows by the power of his sovereignty is every other wrong that humans do to each other- humans are off the hook. Furthermore, god/Jesus is guilty of brutalizing humans beyond the realm of humans harming other humans. He allows the brutalization of humans by way of bad luck, diseases, and natural disasters.

This is suppose to console people? It does not.

This whole sovereignty thing came about from the sadistic theme of the Book of Job and the effort by theologians to preserve and firm-up (in the face of grave doubt about god/Jesus/religion) the pretend nature of their status and livelihood. Theology sustains the bureaucracy of the church and theology sustains the abomination of anti-educational christian schools including universities.

As for the non-elite, even though scripture contradicts itself believers continue to believe. Believers continue to believe without the "benefit" of theology as a result of Orwellian double-think -that's what it takes, double-think.

The thinking of believers, clergy, and theologians is dangerous.

Conversely, Gazettefan, you think you’ve struck gold with your contention that God is cruel and capricious when exercising His sovereignty. The weakness in your argument is your reliance on your own limited ability to reason and your obviously biased judgment. You really need to stick with all those wonderful reasons and proof of atheism as your ant-theism is crippled by your inaccurate assessment of your own knowledge and judgment.

billnewbie, when it comes to god and the subject of human suffering, you apparently think you struck gold with the pseudo-intellectual blather of some theologian. The sovereign-thing and the Book of Job are unwitting admissions that god does not exist.

By the way, the U.S. is a sovereign country but its leader and leaders are not sovereigns. Dictators and your god are sovereigns: They can do anything they want without being questioned. The belief in a sovereign god is the ultimate insensitivity toward those who suffer. This is the truly sick lesson of the Book of Job. It's the same motivating reason your fellow believers use for flying planes into buildings.

Countries, our own included, have sovereignty as well Gazettefan. You must be as uneducated in civics as you are in theology. Thanks for confirming my contention that you would meet my post with ridicule. You are becoming quite predictable.

Where was I, billnewbie? Well, I'd like to say I was waiting to be born but the truth is I just don't remember.

Yes, god is a "sovereign." The phonics of the word makes is sound soft and not so bad, no hard consonents. But Kings are sovereigns. You know what kings are, don't you? They are antithetical to democracy. And totalitarian dictators are sovereigns. You know what totalitarian dictators are, don't you? Very, very antithetical to democracy.

Recall when I said communism and fascism are actually religions? Thanks for confirming it for me.

I don't think you realize what you've done with your last post. ;~)

You should printout copies of that post and hand one to anyone you know who's lost someone to the power of god's sovereignty -make some extras for the victims of child rape -heck, print a ton of them for the victims of every manner of human suffering.

Gazettefan seems exultant that, in his view, God acts immorally and that His acts cannot be defended. He has read a few lines of scripture, learned a few biblical stories like the ones about Job and Abraham and has decided that God is amoral. In modern day acts of God, Gazettefan can detect no justifiably divine purpose in saving all of the lives of those in the plane that landed on the Hudson while allowing all of those that crashed in Buffalo last February to die. He defies anyone to quote some scripture that reconciles these apparently amoral acts with the supposed morality of Christianity. Such an endeavor would be a waste of time as Gazettefan has no respect for anything one may quote from the bible. But I will point out an attribute of God that I’m sure Gazettefan will ridicule but never the less explains his contention. That attribute is the sovereignty of God. Only one such as Gazettefan who puts himself on the same level as God, or more accurately, reduces God to the level of a man or denies Him outright could make such statements that God acts immorally. But no one who acknowledges the existence of God could say that God should not act as He sees fit. Yes, that means allowing people to suffer and die. If one views our existence as limited to this physical life only, then killing a person is the worst imaginable immorality there can be. But even if that were true, since God is our Creator, it is within His sovereignty to do with us as He will since we are here because of His will. So indicting God as immoral is a nonsensical argument. Being sovereign and therefore free to act as He sees fit is one of the things that define what God is. And so I will support my contention that God is sovereign with the following quote from Job chapter 38 verse 4
.
“Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.” So, where were you, Gazettefan?

mcleard, football season must cut into the lord's schedule what with all those prayers he has to sort-out and answer re: the requests of opposing football teams.

An atheist is only someone who doesn't believe what theists believe. This includes the nonsensical belief that good morality can only come from religion.

Great posts, sewaelizabeth.

And foolonthehill and sewaelizabeth, the use of the word "atheist" as an epithet is a manifestation of the tribal instincts that is a major basis for the belief in god and the practice of religiosity. Hatred for outsiders was crucial to the establishment of religion in human society. Believers need people to hate.

mcdclear1, again... you could benefit from a clearer understanding of what atheists do and do not believe. You miss-characterize what I and most atheists believe. If you had read that blog I referenced, you would have learned that I don't misrepresent what you believe, try to change you or tell you that you are wrong or stupid for believing it. Look up the definition of "arrogance" and obey your 9th commandment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "pride" one of the Seven Deadly Sins?

billnewbie -- I am sorry that you feel that I am insulting you. Truly. Maybe you should try laughing more often. If God didn't want you to laugh, he wouldn't have created duck-billed platypuses.

Fool_on_the_hill, you may insult me to your heart's content, not that you ever needed my permission.

I don't have to look up in the dictionary what I am-an atheist. I know what I believe. I'm no more arrogant than those of religion who believe in what they believe. Just by saying what you're saying shows an arrogance beyond what you're calling atheists.
I think what is happening is that you have to put a label on something that is different than you. You can't just say-'oh, is that what you believe? I don't agree but that's cool.'
I still don't get the part about all knowing and all seeing either.

Gazettrefan: Once again you imply that the creator is equal to the created. Hebrews 9:27
And it is appoited once to die and after this the judgement. Die here is physical. Judgement hers could be good or bad depending on there relationships. Throughout the old testament God punished people because their sins after giving them time and time again to repent. He does this to all, he gives people as much time as they need to make their decision. Keep this in mind since God know the inten of the heart He and the individual knows when they have crossed the line of no return. Since he is the creator and knows the intention of the hearts of men, and also does not lie when He says that because of Adam all men shall die for their sin God and only God determines the time and place of death. Keep in mind this is not murder, because if Adam and Eve had simply obeyed God which was to their benefit death would not have existed. Death came as a result of sin of humanity not God.

gazettefan..It appears you're waiting for a pat on the back or some recognition for your fine deeds. And fine deeds they are for sure.
On behalf of the entire blog community here's your standing ovation.............there, now that we're past that part, you can continue to talk to the hand!

Footonthehill: I am rfering to the comment in your earlier post of me being arrogant. I was simply stating it would be far more arrogant for one to believe in no god. Which is the atheist claim. Based on pure science of today in regards to the body the intricacies clearly demonstrate that that someone had to create it. The reason is a mind had to build the requirements needed to make a human. based on pure science to suggest that evolution or anything would require mor faith than prescibing to the theory that God created us. Since we were not in the beginning we both know that both of these are theoreies are just that theories. But any theory outside of creationism today is being continually disproven by science. However, because of the belief system of this world that evidence is not being provided in the school today. The problem with teaching both sides of the theories of the beginnings of the earth and human beings is that it would cause people to at least entertain the thought of their being God. The arrogance the atheists portray is hey seem all-knowing, everywhere (including times past and in the future) and you exist at all places at all times in the universe. It is clear arheists are'nt. Therefore you belief system does not hold water. Secondly as far my relationship with God-man Jesus Christ one who knows true christianity does not take pride in that a blood sacrifice was needed to take away our sins from us. Thirdly, and as far as favor, I have recieved far more favor than I deserve for I deserve eternity in hell for the sins I have done and the sins that were paid for by the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Any christian thinking otherwise has either forgotten the cost or needs to consider their heart in such matters. I am like Paul in the new testament as far as a sinner, I am the lowest of lowest. But you might consider self-defacing. If their folks out there who thing I am judging I am trying articulate accurataly.
If you don't agree with my definition of atheism look up atheism in the dictionary. I believe arrogance is believing in something you cannot prove, or something that is work based because you cannot determine how much you have to do to get into heaven. Christianity is about the gift of Jesus to all. However, you reject Jesus God's son you reject God and want no part of Him. Remember the choice has its consequences: Acceptance has a renew relationship with God including all the attributes of God. Rejection has a severed relationship with God the exact opposite of the attributes of God. I really seriously hope you consider this. My heart does go out to anyone who goes through life thinking they can live without Jesus, God's son. You may call Him a crutch but He is the only doctor I have needed. One of these I hope you find out whom I talking about. I assure you will find out I just hope is not to late.

bill-I'm an atheist, not an anti-theist. I don't think that's a more accurate term for 'most atheists' as I don't think you have met most of us.
Maybe if you understood what the basis of what we think is-you wouldn't make such a broad, inaccurate statement.
The only reason I've posted about this is in defense of myself-I see so much being said about or against atheists that it does put me on the defensive but you will never hear ME put down religion. It's not my thing but I'm not against anyone's rights to follow it. I would hope I would receive the same courtesy.

lovestoscrap, when a family or friend has a terminal illness do you and the others give him or her messages to carry to previously deceased family or friends? If not, why not?

In the end...we shall all see!

kleeg, whythefuss, billnewbie, ICY, matthew, and to whomever else it may concern:

None of you can respond to the challenge to reconcile your beliefs and your morality with the morality of judeo-christian-islamic scripture. This is the case even though the basis for your beliefs and morality is supposed to be based on that scripture.

Some of you have read scripture and you therefore know that you would be on untenable ground if you comprehensively cited scripture in response to the challenge.

Some of you have read scripture and due to learning disabilities have failed to truly comprehend it.

Some of you never read scripture and are only partaking in religiosity as an act of fellowship. But what you do not realize is that are acting in support something with a rotten underbelly.

Which ever type you are, show some backbone (with its vestigial tailbone) and take the challenge.

And it is a fact that in western Europe and the Western Hemisphere religiosity correlates with high crime and an unwillingness to substantially help the needy. Conversely, in the western world, lower crime and a willingness to help the needy correlates with diminished religiosity.

Accordingly, to matthew or whoever it was who bragged about his good deeds, I have probably done more for others than you have. And I didn't need a bogeyman breathing down my neck with the threat of eternal damnation as negative motivation.

http://orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com/blog...

So, billnewbie, you won't feel insulted if I refer to you as a "weaker member", correct? Please reread my post you found to be so offensive, paying close attention to the word "if" and its implication.

Regardless, I sincerely hope you find this a more suitable way to express disagreement:

"For one to claim that he or she is an atheist is arrogant. For one to make such a claim they would have to be all-knowing, all-seeing, and has been everywhere at once." --mcdlear1

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." --God

"billnewbie"-- It's downright frightening to know that people like this actually believe what they're saying. Just like "matthew" said, there are so many midguided, brainwashed people out there who have no sense of reality whatsoever. It's hard to unify a nation who's government has no interest in unification themselves. We're having our freedom's stolen from under our noses because we have so many uneducated, freethinkers out there with their own version of truth derived from a history of lies they've been forcefed their whole lives. Knowledge has been replaced by ignorance which makes wisdom unattainable to the closed mind.

I've had more than six months to consider Gazettefan's anti-theistic diatribes. Still they have not had the effect that he seeks, except for buttressing his own beliefs. If anything, he has reinforced my beliefs of the motivations and moral relativity of most atheists, or anti-theists as that term seems much more accurate.

"gazettefan"-- You are truly a piece of work.

gazettefan....I am doing something about the problems we're facing in this country (fyi) I refuse to sit and whine about things and not get off my duff and act! As for the rest of your rhetoric.....I'm not into seeing if I can match wits with people, nor am I into debating who is right or who is wrong. I could truly care less! It appears that your prime directive is to simply be right and that's all that matters to you. It's your life and you're welcome to it. As I've stated before, talk to the hand! I'll see you on the battlefield...........

mattew...., what I said in my previous post is justified by this statement in your recent post:
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"This country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles whether you or I like it or not. It's very fortunate for us that our founding fathers had enough insight to do just that! You modern intellects have so much pride that you're blinded by truth."
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Note your use of the "founded" which has the same root word as "foundation." Also, your use of the word "principle" makes it synonymous with "foundation."

If you had your way, how would you correct the problems you are complaining about?

And, it is you who exhibit faulty participation in a dialogue when you ignore my reasonable request:

Give an example from your judeo-christian-islamic scripture that can't be overwhelmingly countervailed by something else in that scripture. For example: Love your neighbor. But kill your neighbor if he isn't a christian.

gazettefan... do you even know what a principle is??? I just got done saying, the United States is NOT a Christian nation. Therefore, why would God be mentioned in the constitution??? Your problem is, you're so busy trying to discredit anything regarding Christianity that you'll twist any information around to make you look "right". Like I said, this isn't about being right or wrong. Our govt. along with the mass media pumping garbage into our brains everyday are succeeding at dividing this country. They use people like you as their tool to do their dirty work for them. 95% America has a thinking problem.......... welcome to the club!

Matt...., make up your mind about the "christian foundations" of this country. Maybe it will help you to know that god isn't mentioned in our Constitution.

Give an example from your judeo-christian-islamic scripture that can't be overwhelmingly countervailed by something else in that scripture. For example: Love your neighbor. But kill your neighbor if he isn't a christian.

gazettefan...you obviously have an issue with authority. It's plain as day. You oppose any truth unless it's your own version of it which is precisely the problem in this country. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles whether you or I like it or not. It's very fortunate for us that our founding fathers had enough insight to do just that! You modern intellects have so much pride that you're blinded by truth. The truth is, the principles that the United States of America were founded on are noble and 100% necessary. It has nothing to do with being a Christian or an athiest either. Principles are principles and that doesn't change! It also doesn't say that the U.S. is a Christian nation either like so many of you intellects are busy crying out about either. We are a nation of many walks of life who have laws built around a rock solid foundation! Without this foundation, as we're seeing first hand in this country and around the world, the "building" is becoming weaker and weaker. Just because you don't like the building materials doesn't make the structure bad. Why are you so willing to cut off your nose to spite your face? Are you that willing to compromise the future of this country over foolish pride? This isn't about who is right and who is wrong! I could care less! This is about this country and the future of it! We have people who have paid dearly for the freedoms we have and people like you and I owe them the due respect they deserve and it's our duty to preserve what they've made possible for us.

Mat........., all your pal, Jimmy Black, did was yammer about the problems that extend from the very thing he extolled -christianity. He is a budding bin Laden like all the other christian fundamentalists in this country.

When relativity becomes the prevailing orthodoxy of a culture, the character of the people will wither and die….
The degeneration of philosophy and science into relativism is just one more indication of the moral poverty of American society. It is evidence that we have become corrupt. Without authority vested somewhere, without regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere. Yet, modern liberalism and democracy are contemptuous of the whole concept of moral authority. If not checked in their assaults upon habitual reverence and prescriptive morality, the liberals and democrats will destroy justice not only for their enemies, but, for themselves. In their fierce determination to deny their own guilt and to deny any possibility that a divine judge may be a witness against them, the modern scholar denies all moral authority.
Big government, the media, educators, and university law school professors have an agenda that is oblivious to the wishes of the American people. Tradition and standards no longer seem to apply in that arena since these people are convinced that their task is to discredit the past and to redesign the future according to their own idealistic beliefs. Among other things, they believe that Christians and conservatives are the real problem in society, which accounts for at least a portion of the bitterness of their attacks on the “religious right”. According to these doctrines, citizens who uphold “traditional values” must be silenced. A silent majority suits them just fine. Silence allows the proponents of “change” to wage their covert war on the mainstream culture.....Jim Nelson Black

billnewbie, next time take more than 3 minutes, you might be a slow learner.

Fool_on_the_hill, perhaps you overlooked the following in what I addressed to you, “Instead, your castigation of Mcdlear1 (and your very questionable implied assessment of his intellect) suggests…..”. That is not at all condescending towards Mcdlear1. However your statement addressed to Mcdlear1, “If not, it should at least provide you with insights into how folks with 3-digit IQs disagree on the subject with civility” certainly is. You may think it a clever ploy to make a statement like that and then pretend you meant no offense and that you did not mean to belittle another’s intellect, but you clearly don’t need such a device. So one can only conclude that you wrote it for its insulting and self agrandising qualities which disqualifies it as a civil argument which is what you were trying to chide Mcdlear1 for.

Well, I reconsidered and my opinions remain unaltered. It seems that Gazettefan’s powers of persuasion are inadequate to the task.

Gee, I didn't really think Gazettefan would disagree with me. I'll have to reconsider.

mcdlear, according to scripture god murdered thousands of people -READ YOU BIBLE!!!

The claim that the Book of Job is a valid lesson for the importance of maintaining faith in god is one of the sickest ideas ever contrived by humans.

God murdered Job's children and caused him horrible physical and mental torture. The faith that Job maintained is the kind of faith that caused your fellow believers to fly three planes into buildings and one, meant for the White House, into a field on 9/11.

billnewbie, some adaptive mechanisms require some thinking to understand them. A colorful bird like a male cardinal would seem to stick out as an easy lunch for a predator. But the color of the male cardinal enhances its mating ability -therefore its ability to reproduce- to a degree that more than offsets the disadvantage of being easy prey.

The human ability for moral behavior is inextricably tied to cooperation. Cooperation is an adaptive mechanism that enhances our survival as individuals and as a species. The quality of how we cooperate is our morality.

Humanity is a species that is part animal; unharbored instincts account for the anti-social behavior of some individuals and some groups; these individuals and groups continue to plague human societies. Anti-social behavior is proof that we evolved from animals -just as our tailbone is proof.

And, certain lower primates have exhibited the ability to harbor and exact revenge and some the other behaviors you mentioned.

mcdlear1 -- Why in the world are you addressing your last post to me? If you can't understand your atheists, could you please at least keep them straight? Thank you.

You entirely misunderstood my message, billnewbie. I called no one any names. You did, however, when you referred to mcdlear1 as a "weaker member". That was condescending.

Mcdlear1 asserted a derisive straw man and Sewaelizebeth provided a good response, seconded by Gazettefan. Being one who would rather not repeat himself, I simply provided the poster an easy way to educate himself on the subject of atheist beliefs, while learning a more civil style of discourse in the process. If you carefully re-read my post, you will see that my reference to IQ or lack thereof was its association to civil dialog, not to any particular individual. I implied only that the poster lacked knowledge and civility, not intelligence. Under the circumstances, I considered myself as being sufficiently polite to someone who had made straw man arguments and characterized atheists as "arrogant". If I had intended to call him a name, I wouldn't have been subtle about it. Like above, for example, when I referred to you as "condescending".

Incidentally, no one can make anyone else look stupid. That's something we do to ourselves. I've made myself look stupid every time I fooled myself into believing I knew more about something than I actually did. Of course, I didn't always "feel" stupid unless someone smarter came along to point out that the "looking stupid ship" had already sailed.

Thanks for the "superior abilities" characterization but, really, I'm not that smart so stop calling me those names! ;^)

Gazettefan and footonthehill: First God did not murder anyone because of original sin of Adam and Eve we are all born into sin and face physical death as a result of it. In Job's case there was a greater demonstration of God's glory was exhibited by the fact that Job continued to trust God even though all things were happening around Job. If you read towards the end of Job you'll notice that Job was rewarded as the result of this test with double of what he had. Which means his children even though beyond deaths door is alive and well. But you have to believe in a God to understand the concept of life after death. As far as me being arrogant because I have received favor from God, any favor I have received is underserved and unearned. It is given to me because God chooses to. The only privilege I relish is the fact that I know Jesus Christ, I know he died for the world sins (including mine, and recognizing, accepting, and trusting that I have received access in God's family through His Son Jesus Christ, only, not by anything that comes from me. If you have gotten this far without getting quitting. Please understand there is an abundance of evidence out there for those who diligently seek it. I understand tough trusting Jesus Christ can be tough because it does sacrifice. But keep in mind that sacrifice is what is really what eats people to begin with.

One really does have to perform some impressive philosophical gymnastics to arrive at the theory that morality evolved in humans from instincts. In no other creature is instinct even remotely tied to any sense of morality. Yet humans are loaded with it. Evolutionists claim that humans are relatively young compared to nearly every other species. Yet in that short time we have developed a concept of right and wrong that is totally foreign to all other life forms. Not only that, but this bizarre concept actually interferes with the very basic premise of evolution, the survival of the fittest. In all other species, the weak, the sick and the old are left to their own devices and as such their quick demise as the preservation of the species demands. Yet humans are driven to protect and nurture the weakest among us even at the risk of our own wellbeing. Furthermore, only in humans does one find degenerate behavior. When an animal kills there is no spite, no anger, no hatred, no evil motivations at all, only the drive to live. Humans however kill for sport, hatred, lust, greed and that most perplexing purpose of all, revenge. The urge for vengeance is one of the strongest that humans possess. And what is it based on? A sense of morality, an urge to right a wrong, even at the expense of the wellbeing of the vengeance seeker. One can claim that all this is the result of the evolutionary process, but anyone can see that these things are not conducive to the survival of the fittest and therefore they defy evolutionary theory by contradicting it.

I would rather that you not characterize me at all either positively or negatively, Fool_on_the_hill or anyone else for that matter. When you do so, you stoop to nothing more than name calling, an unnecessary device for someone with superior abilities.

billnewbie, your self-defeating "sunrise" example and your reliance on the wrong source to explain biology are egregious. For your sake, let's hope your health care personal don't rely on that example and that source for your treatment.

Vestigial in the sense of the term tailbone applies because it no long serves for having a tail.

Geez... you really need to do something about that hair trigger of yours, billnewbie. Didn't you and I have some civil exchanges? I was including you in the 3-digit IQ group. Are you telling me I am wrong about that?

billnewbie, you left out my explanation that human morality and human thought are also manifestations of adaptive social evolution. Don't leave out the important stuff.

Tailbone?

Vestigial - Relating to a body part that has become small and lost its use because of evolutionary change. The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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Isn’t the use of the word vestigial meant to imply useless? Of course it is.
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Why do they call it a tailbone? Obviously not because there is a tail attached to it. According to the bible, when God created Adam, He had Adam name all the animals. Adam and his progeny have been naming things ever since. Why do they call it a sunrise? Because it looks like the sun is rising. Does the sun rise? Only from our perspective and so it is with the word tailbone. Someone perceived that it looked like a tailbone. Is that an accurate perception? Does yours wag when someone scratches your ear?

matthew... the "truth"?!. I'd like you to experience health care under that "truth." Talk to your own hand if you can manage to remove it from your libido.

matthew ...., the throes of relativism have come about in spite of the millenia-old foothold religion and the belief in god has had on our society. Why didn't the righteous power of religion and the belief in god prevent this descent?

The answer is that the church is itself relativistic. The church's hypocrisy is its most flagrant display of relativism e.g. murder is bad but you must kill members of another group if they are not christians who tow the "true" christian line and you must kill members of another group because they are not christians at all.

That the church changes as a result of external pressure and does not merely change in a positive way from internal incite is another example of the church's relativistic makeup.

Really, Fool_on_the_hill? 3 digit I.Q.'s? Whose I.Q. standards do we use for estimating the worth of a post? If we use Gazettefan's, then only avid atheists qualify. For those that have a superior intellect, they have a certain obligation to help those that are perceive to have a more limited ability to understand as we've been told that our animalistic instinct, the mother of human morality compelles us? Instead, your castigation of Mcdlear1 (and your very questionable implied assessment of his intellect) suggests that our animalistic instincts lead you to attempt to drive away or force into submission a perceived weaker member of the herd which is an illustration of why animalistic instinct could not be the source of morality as it is basically self-centered, interested only in the welfare and preservstion of the individual even if at the expense of a brother.

gazettefan...not a monopoly on morality, but no question a monopoly in regards to truth. I respect others opinions as I've always done in the past. This one isn't up for debate anymore. Talk to the hand.

billnewbie, I never said the tailbone has no function. Maybe my question was too difficult for you. Let me put it this way:

Why is it called a tailbone?

We crave leadership founded on the highest platforms of integrity, but have created a society of moral relativism. Americans today have been influenced by the post modern culture that diminishes absolute truth and has created a counterfeit leadership by placing media celebrities in a position to lead.
"Where there is no truth, any beliefs are tolerated.'' Truth then becomes relative.

If you really feel that your tailbone has no function, you can prove it. Have it removed. Then you will be able to write with authority on the subject, if you can still sit.

mcdlear1 - You might want to mosey over to "Finding Your Call" http://www.gazettextra.com/news/2009/feb... and read the discussion there. That might help you better understand atheists and believers alike. If not, it should at least provide you with insights into how folks with 3-digit IQs disagree on the subject with civility.

billnewbie, the only possibility for you and I to ever have a dialogue here that doesn't include direct negative comments toward each other would come from a temporal break in exchanges between us.

There has been a break but all you can do is avoid the real issues at hand and instead go immediately into to some psychotic screed.

Try to get back on a civilized track by stating why you have a tailbone.

Gazettefan’s diatribes, besides being repetitive, are reminiscent of the similar types of vitriol cast at Mark Antony by Cicero and, even earlier in history, Demosthenes famous philippics which were aimed at Philip II of Macedonia. In the case of Cicero, his philippics lead to a rather unrewarding result as his severed hands and head were displayed in the Forum as an example for all to see. Demosthenes, however, was tolerated as Philip and later his son Alexander, were less vindictive than Mark Antony. Fortunately for Gazettefan, God is long suffering so Gazettefan’s philippics will no doubt be met with the same tolerance that Demosthenes received particularly since Gazettefan’s have been just as ineffective. Then again, if Gazettefan’s real purpose for his revilements is to bolster his own faith in what he chooses to believe, he may yet have some success although the frequency of his repetitions suggest otherwise.
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You’ve never heard of that “CJZ” quote before Gazettefan? I’ve seen it posted perhaps 5 or six times on Gazette comment boards in discussions on these related topics. I guess you really don’t like to read since you were the most active poster on all of those boards. Now that you are familiar with it feel free to use it as it will fit right in with your repertoire of ineffectual harangues.

The lord gave mcdlear a tail bone to test his faith. Which, of course, is an improvement on the lord's test of someone's faith compared to when he use to do things like murder Job's children and torture Job mercilessly.

mcdlear1,
No, to claim that you have the favor of a god is arrogant. You think that god (if it were to exist) has nothing better to do than listen to your requests, but you call me arrogant. Really?

Right on, sewaelelizabeth.

mcdlear, why did your creator give you an appendix and a vestigial tailbone -not to mention unnecessary body hair?

Atheists believe they are all-knowing and all-seeing? Atheism means a belief in no higher power. No god. Unless I'm not understanding what you're saying-you need to do a fact check. We have never said we don't believe in good. I lead a better life than many christians I know but I do it because it it intrinsicly right-not because I want to please some god or get into heaven or another life or whatnot. We don't have to answer to anyone about the way we live??? How do we live? Tell me so I know how I live my life.
I am an atheist. I don't hate those of religion. I don't judge. I wish I could say the same of you mcd.

Delta: #1-For one to claim that he or she is an atheist is arrogant. For one to make such a claim they would have to be all-knowing, all-seeing, and has been everywhere at once. If I am mistaken you cover none of these powers, For you are not next to me now. Most people call themselves atheists because the want to one justify the way they live and deceive themselves in the fact that they won't have to answer for the way they live. Keep in mind you stand under false footing because you cannot prove that there is no good. However, based on science there is more and more information about the fragileness of our universe, and the parameters within life is allowed to exist on earth, and the intricate way your own body is made that tends to suggest that their should at least be some consideration in finding out more about why this is so. As far as the Bible is concern, there has been more than enough historical information to support it, yet none to disprove it. As I stated previously, I recommend the book "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell

Great post, delta....., the nerve of those hypocrites to believe that they have a monopoly on morality!!!

To those who believe in hell, you deserve it...
I would also like to address the alleged christian who penned the words-
"For those who do not believe in God I feel great pity upon you for your entire existence is measured in a few measly years and then you return to the dirt from which you sprang you leave nothing and take nothing, you have no hope and leave none. Your wants are of things of this world and none of it will go with you."
Don't feel pity for me, worry about yourself. My life is full and rich as an atheist. Don't pretend that my life is any less fulfilling than yours. Or that I live in some desperate meaningless existence for the few, what you call, measly years. I am a good person, not because I fear the great lightning chucker in the sky, or god, zeus, or whatever you want to call it, but because it is the logical and right thing to do. There are millions of news stories out there of "religious" men and women committing horrible crimes against humanity on a regular basis. You are the person with no hope, for you can not see the forest through the trees. You spend your time and energy to "pity" myself and others like me. Your religion makes you fearful and unable to rationalize the most simple facts. You can not handle the fact that you are a biological function like all of the other living things on this planet. You draw your inspiration from a book that quotes snakes, bushes, and 600 year old crazy old men that heard things on a mountain. Mind you this book was written when humanity believed the Earth was flat. Religion at the very most was nothing more than a form of government. That's why most of the churches in history, until recently, spoke in Latin. Hard to question something you can't read. And you have to take the translators word that he is telling you what is written. Your book was written, rewritten, and rewritten many times. And the rewritten version was always different from the version before. The book that you believe in is nothing more than a collection of grim fairy tails invented to scare people into believing. If you don't believe, the red horned boogie man is gonna get you!
I must admit, you are right about my wants being of this world. I want peace. I want nobody to be homeless. I want everyone to be fed. I want an end to war. I want equal rights for everyone. I could go on and on...
I do have hope. I have hope that someday, evolution in intellect will erase religion. I hope that humanity will discover that we are only as great as the least fortunate among us. That we are alive for only a finite amount of time, and that time should be spent constructively, serving each other. Not serving some mystical, jealous, judgmental deity that teaches intolerance and hate.

Interesting how some claiming to be Christians on this site seem to revel in judging others. Now is that the Christian thing to do?

"I’m sure that in the years to come, if there aren’t enough lions for all the Christians, our compassionate and morally superior atheistic friends will find reasonable substitutes for that righteous work that they only chuckle about amongst themselves for now." Thanks billnewbie for proving my point as to how christians feel so marginalized in a country dominated by christianity.

janesvillecomments, you left out how religious leaders promoted and committed violence.

And, yes, to the degree that we Americans are free of religion, to that degree of we are free of the violent, religious thinking of people like Pat Robertson, bin Ladin, and Christ.

mathew...., your quote is interesting in that slavery is promoted and commanded by god and Jesus in scripture.

MiltonRedman, does scripture allow sex for pleasure and not solely for procreation? Does it allow sex outside of marriage?

The accurate study of Geography developed in spite of religion and not because it.

If you don't hate outsiders like some of the religious posters here and your fellow believers like bin Ladin -and as preached by god and Jesus- it's because your thinking has been influenced by the non-religious nature or our democracy.

LOL--andre. You very desperately long to be be a victim. I'm gonna back out of the argument now. You come on and have the last word. I don't want to interfere with your "poor me" victim stance.

According to scripture number of people killed. God 2,391,421 (not including the great flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah). Satan 10.

As early societies developed in ancient history, they started with founders who were the strongest and smartest of the tribes, and usually kingdoms and dynasties ruled and benefited the most from them. Religions were started by smart men and women who wanted a slice of the pie, but weren't born to the right families. The strongest man with a club or spear might be the ruler of the clan, but the shaman who kept the evil spirits away or might heal you with a potion got a share of the group's goodies also, even if he couldn't hunt and kill a wooly mammoth to feed himself. As tribes grew into more complex fiefdoms and kingdoms, organized religions were created and developed and grew with them, and developed varying degrees of power and influence in their societies, depending upon various conditions and circumstances.
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One of the things that make America great is the freedom to be free of religion. The Pope can't effectively make an American a dead man walking by excommunicating him, a mullah can't turn everyone in your town out to kill you by issuing a fatwa of death against you. In America, you can choose to opt out of religion if you wish, and apparently more of Wisconsin's residents are doing so.

The Holy Spirit has inspired these words - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

"A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." - Benjamin Franklin

Gazettefan - how does the notion of god attempt to regress normal sexuality? Last time I checked, God said to be fruitful and multiply - sounds like normal, NATURAL sexuality to me. I believe in God, I don't hate outsiders. I believe in God and I understand nature, in fact, my undergrad is in Geography and Environmental Studies. None of what was taught to me denies or proves the existence of God. Does science disprove certain doctrines (not from any specific religion) - yes, does science disprove there is a supreme being - no.

I find it difficult to understand how people can have such certitude over something that they clearly cannot be certain about. Faith has become a religious arms race. The messenger has become a focal point of worship at the expense of the message.

The problem with religion and faith is when it crosses paths with policy and reality. Believing that a cure for a disease or that a public policy works is not the same as it actually working. Believing something is true is easy. Proving it is not.

billnewbie, I never heard of it but I finally Googled CJZ and wonder why you keep bringing it up. Is it something you want to be pestered with?

wahoo...., man invented god. He invented god in an attempt to understand nature, to rally his fellow tribal members to hate outsiders, to repress normal sexuality, and to otherwise exert diabolical control over his own people.

Spunkmeyer....very well said...
I don't understand why people feel so threatened when their beliefs are not agreed with. That goes for both sides here...those that believe in God and those that don't. How does it hurt or affect your life if someone disagrees with your faith or lack thereof? And do we really need to put down others for what they believe? Who cares. If you wanna debate like adults, by all means. But when insults are being tossed back and forth and respect for others is being thrown out the window, you just make yourself look silly. Nobody is going to change their belief because someone told them to on a Gazette blog.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(I rest my case.)

Gazettefan you need only fear for three my son died four years ago!! and he had more passion and love than you could ever imagine! I hope that when you are gasping for your last breath that you find peace!! I have hope that is all that matters, you have nothing so I hope you make the best of what you have now.

Again it is proven that one should never bring up the subjects of religion or politics, all it leads to is arguments that no one wins.
Whether you believe in something or believe in nothing, it doesn't call for insults by either side to establish their point.

Why hasn’t someone copied and pasted the oft repeated “Cosmic Jewish Zombie” screed that is so popular with the anti-Christians since they seem to be in such a provocatively elated mood?
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The fact is that many who call themselves Christian are just “covering their bases” with Pascal’s wager as some refer to it. Believing in a general concept of God either willfully or out of fear as an act of appeasement is not a Christian act and it does not make one a Christian. Neither does just belonging to a church. It’s true, such acts are useless before God and even the atheists know it. It is also true that people have used religion, including Christianity as excuses for evil for centuries. So it’s not surprising that many are dropping their pretenses as the popular culture provides support for the hedonism that they used to need Christian trappings to conceal.
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I’m sure that in the years to come, if there aren’t enough lions for all the Christians, our compassionate and morally superior atheistic friends will find reasonable substitutes for that righteous work that they only chuckle about amongst themselves for now. Still, if one wants an accurate Christian census, the most reliable way may be to announce the intent to feed to the lions whoever identifies themselves as such.

While I find the news of Wisconsin becoming less Christian as a huge disappointment, I think that many people are returning to their Christian roots.

My church is growing.

And since the research didn't poll EVERY Wisconsinite I don't know how it could be very accurate.

Does anyone know where God came from? Does he/she have parents or what? I am not bashing, just asking a simple question. Everything has a start, so how did God get his/her start?

LOL. Thanks for proving my point.

Resources and texts on Roman capital punishment are not hard to find...you may even find a few at your local library!

Gazettefan - No movie, I'm talking about historical texts, peer reviewed texts written by historians...ya know, those guys with PhD after their name.

I may have to re-think this; seems like god just chimed in.

I don't understand why people feel so threatened when their beliefs are not agreed with. That goes for both sides here...those that believe in God and those that don't. How does it hurt or affect your life if someone disagrees with your faith or lack thereof? And do we really need to put down others for what they believe? Who cares. If you wanna debate like adults, by all means. But when insults are being tossed back and forth and respect for others is being thrown out the window, you just make yourself look silly. Nobody is going to change their belief because someone told them to on a Gazette blog.

DonDiego, I hope someone prays enough to cancel out the damnation for that last remark. LOL

Too bad for the state of Wisconsin. It's turning into a muck hole like the rest of the country. Less truth, more retoric....... working great aint it?

Christians have had their way for millenia. Why do they feel so marginalized. The elected Reagan, Bush 1, and Bush 2 yet they feel so persecuted. I don't get it. They've been persecuting people for thousands of years and you give them a little chatter and they act like we are putting them in concentration camps. Too many born agains, not enough lions! LOL

"Sure make the churches pay taxes, but Habib and his fourteen brothers, not so much..."
Churches pay taxes? The rest of your comment only speaks to your ignorance and racism. The church used to use the bible to justify slavery. I guess not much has changed.

sewellelizabeth, maybe MA got you mixedup with me.

MiltonRedman, which movie are you talking about?

crafty, what questions?

MOTHEROF4, I fear for the four.

I do believe your (over)reaction to my post proves my point tho.

Shdow-I don't believe I was shaking my fist or sticking my finger in your chest. You seem to be upset by all this-I'm just saying I don't hold the same beliefs as you and would like not to be judged as a person because of it. You seem to be the one shaking your fist at me.
Wow.
My kids go to church. Most of my family are christians. You seem to think I have something against christians. I do not.

Shake that fist Elizabeth! ya let em know what for! I did not know it was me that made the world so upset with Christians? And to think I thought I would just pass through this world quietly. That's ok you just stick that finger in my chest and let er roar! In the end..I will still forgive you and my faith will be that much stronger. God Bless

There's no doubt that Jesus as a historical figure did exist, just as much Mohammed, and Abe Lincoln; what happened AFTER Jesus was crucified is where questions come into play. Why did many of his followers flee when he died, but after seeing him return were willing to travel thousands of miles and die for him to spread his word? Perhaps he never died, perhaps he did...I wasn't there. St. Thomas stated he stuck his finger through a hole in Jesus hand, was St. Thomas lying? How was the Jesus able to survive the well documented beating he took and still carry a cross, let alone not die or go into hypovolemic shock? Very few criminals survived the beatings before being crucified - can medical science explain how Jesus was able to survive such a brutal beating without shock or death? A little research on Roman capitol punishment will show just how brutal the beatings were. Was Jesus just super-human?

shdow..., the fact that you tried to make certain people feel bad here reveals your true nature and the truly crazy nature of your christianity. Weren't you supposed to say something nice for the purpose of encouraging others to share the joy of your delusions?

Christians, do not debate if no one is willing to answer your questions.

One of the clues that the prophecies are bogus is the use of anachronistic foreign words that weren't in the vernacular at the time the prophecies were made and the time the events were supposed to have taken place.

darwin1's example of the Christ story is an important instance of malarkey.

True, darwin.

bibledude, I should have said that another explanation for the prophecies of scripture is that older stories were borrowed, stolen, and rewritten to make more recent events appear as though they were predicted. I touched on this in the second part of my previous post.

People who take scripture at face value are hardly qualified to talk about its meaning.

Shdow-maybe the fact that you pity and condemn people who don't share your beliefs is why more and more people don't identify with christianity. How judgemental. I don't judge you. I don't pity you. I just don't believe the same as you.

Darwin1-So you equate mythology with One who traveled to places we can physically go to and see? The Bible speaks of historic names and places, cities, governors, satraps, kings who actually lived. These events transpired in place and time. As yes Micah 5:2 is prophetic. "Will come forth" is future tense. Micah writes HIs days are from eternity. Pinpoints the city where He will be born. Even the most liberal of scholars would say Micah 5:2 is a prophecy, I'm not sure where your information is coming from.

For those who do not believe in God I feel great pity upon you for your entire existence is measured in a few measly years and then you return to the dirt from which you sprang you leave nothing and take nothing, you have no hope and leave none. Your wants are of things of this world and none of it will go with you. You spend your days pointing your finger and shaking your fists at those who have faith yet when you are in dire need it is those of faith who come to your aid directly or indirectly and you feast upon their charity then when you have eaten your fill you again return to shaking your fists. That is a great pity but you have free choice as do we and we choose Life eternal with our Heavenly Father. Have a great day!

Saynotomath! for now you are correct you have no one to answer to, but there is a time when you will answer to your creator and that you have no choice in whether it is BS to you or not.
Gazettefan! This prophecy was meant for the time just before Christs return.He said Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away.The fool says in his heart there is no God.

The Egyptian story of Horus is the same story as Christ. Micah didn't foretell the future he simply retold a fictional story that people have come to believe though there is no physical evidence to support it. Where is Jesus' body? Oh yes that's right he ascended into heaven, how convenient.

Here is Joe Rogan's take on Noah's Ark :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH5zfTVt9...

Gazzettefan-When you make a statement such as,"prophecies in the bible were meant to be short-term -the very near future. They were never meant to come true hundreds and thousands of years later." You have now moved from subjective opinion to distorting objective truth. The prophecies concerning the Messiah's birth and the prediction of the tiny town in which he would be born by the prophet Micah were written 500 years before Christ was born. Isaiah details his sacrificial death and resurrection 700 years before they were fulfilled in Christ.

Justsaynotomath- I know I'm no match for the intellect of a "free thinker" as yourself, me being one of the brain washed masses but you said, "science and history have discounted everything you believe." EVERYTHING? That's a pretty bold and audacious statement to make. Just exactly how has Science refuted the existence of God and how has history disproved Christianity?

MOTHER....., some of the so-called prophecies in the bible were meant to be short-term -the very near future. They were never meant to come true hundreds and thousands of years later.

Other "prophecies" were "predictions" of events that had ALREADY HAPPENED. Segments of scripture were deliberately and falsely written in the present tense though they were actually written after the "prophesied" events took place.

Close accurate reading of scripture reveals these facts.

Justsaynotomath has never seriously searched the claims of Jesus Christ. Historically there is an over abundance of evidence for Jesus. I would encourage you to read the book " Eveidence that demands a verdict" By Josh Mcdowell. This gentleman went out to refute the claims of Jesus Christ and found himself accepting Christ. Those who continually put down Jesus Christ and His Lordship do so out ignorance or their not wanting to submit to His Lordship because they choose to live for themselves instead of the one who created them. Keep in mind I used to be one of those that wanted to live for themselves and always kept wanting more. I find that Jesus is the only filler of your need. The question is what do you really do with the claims of Jesus Christ. The Bible does teach that what you do with those claims will have an impact on your eternity. I want to assure that those who do follow Jesus Christ are at the same crossroads you are and needed to fill the vacant areas in there lives.
But keep in this mind the claims of Jesus Christ will be answered by everyone. The Answer to those will have a direct impact on where you do spend your eternity. There is a seriousness in this, remember the Bible does not threatene but promise.

What a shame.

Jesus said there would be a falling away just before he returned

;~)

The story and most of these posts are a daymaker.

I'm off to celebrate by eating some deep-fried food.*

* Just a note related to Pascal's Wager. It says a lot about the mentality of belief when the basis of belief -scripture- states that god approves more of a low-life scum who is a believer (for getting into heaven) than he would for a non-believer who led a decent life!

andre, please. Have whoever is reading this to you explain that when you posit a notion, and someone answers with a "seems," they are not accusing you of believing in a God you don't want to believe in. You asked what might happen in such a situation. I explained that that example was not really one of belief, but of convenience for the future of the believer. You must have some paranoid tendencies to see criticism where none existed. Please, when you have graduated the fifth grade, come back and post some more.

A little touchy, aren't you andre? Don't take yourself so seriously...nobody else does.

A wise man once told me: ORGANIZED RELIGION IS NOTHING BUT CROWD CONTROL.

This in no way puts down your faith or belief in your particular god. It just puts the reason for the ORGANIZATIONS in perspective.

norseman:
very tolerant of you.
whatever it is YOU believe in, i want no part of it.

I could never figure out how so many seemingly smart people could believe in something so stupid.

Yes.

The title should have read "Wisconsin becoming less gullible"

ffrf.org

You are correct usaret. It is a private decision, so let us all work together to keep it out of schools and other public places that are funded by taxes which are paid by all. If government doesn't support any religion over another, then no one loses.

No matter what is said or done, being religious or non-religious is still a private and personal matter.

In my opinion, most "Christians" don't follow the true teachings of Christ. They follow whatever their church teaches them. Jesus was the man, y'all, not Pastor So-and-so of the First United Church of Blahblahblah.

I have to laugh when religious people tell other religious people they aren't doing religion right.

And "what have you got to lose?"? Seriously? With a ringing endorsement of religion like that, no wonder people don't believe.

andre and whoanellie--Sounds like you are trying to fool God with your idea of belief. Rather than loving and believing in God simply because He is worthy of your adoration, you seem to be doing it so you don't pay a price later. This is not real faith. God won't be fooled, if I read my catechism correctly. Your faith must be unconnected to any expectation of reward.

Perhaps instead of trying to convert those who don't believe in your particular faith or criticizing those who have lost faith in organized religion, convinced believers attending church regularly should carefully explore just what is it about your practice, dogma or pontificating that causes truly searching, good, and spiritual people to leave any given religious group.

Here is a thought. Do unto others as you would have done to yourself. That's the bottom line.

I don't like my odds when flipping a coin, they are 50/50, which god is the right one? How can someone switch religions and think that they now have it figured out. I at least give credit to the diehards who stick it out their whole life. They should at least get a button or something.

"If a person believes in God and it turns out there is no God, what has that person lost?"

Mainly, a less encumbered view of reality during that time. That person may have gained something too, but the gain would be more personal in nature.

andre,
While Pascal's Wager is amusing, I don't think it is particularly useful.
What if you don't believe in the correct deity?
Does/do God/gods/goddesses/etc. reward belief more than things such as deeds and quality of character?
Can you decide to believe simply because you want to hedge your bets?
Would __(insert your favorite deity here)__ truly punish those who are unable to believe despite trying really hard to do so or because you only got your beliefs 90% correct?
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freddog,
No.

These surveys are always skewed to what that surveyer wants, I don't believe them. and I agree with andre, what have you got to lose? You would live thinking of others as better than youselves, you have a book that tells you exactly how to live a fulfilling life and a precious Savior that loved you so much that he died for you. I find that worth it all. I pray for all of you who have no hope, please turn to Jesus, he has all the answers!

I think Rocky nailed it. Though the Gazettefan comments are great. Where I came from in Wisconsin, people would talk if you didn't go to church, CCD, picnics and every other guilt laced thing they could find. I will be thinking about those people as I bite into my steak on Friday night, mmmmmmmmmm juicy.

Not very surprised. If you added "practicing" to the word "Christian" you'd probably find the number quite low, indeed. There are a lot of "CEO's" out there (Christmas and Easter Only) when it comes to Christians. Many mainline churches boast membership of 10,000 plus, yet manage to get by with 2 services in a 500 seat sanctuary for the weekend, and those aren't even full.

----

There used to be more social pressure to identify yourself as "Christian", even if you didn't attend any church any more. The pressure is less today. I don't think the number of practicing Christians has decreased, I just think the honesty of those taking the survey has increased.

I suppose with more asians moving in, more eastern religions, less of our own, isn't America losing everything..

My thoughts and prayers are with the surveys family...

Gazettefan must be doing a lot of evangelizing.

That popping sound you heard was Gazettefan's Champagne cork.