Chad sezs "they build better quality" crap now.

Chad i agree

I wanna know-------------if you ever seen the rain ?

slam dunk pharm!
jja - you just proved you don't have a clue. The old "they build better quality" crap is passe now. GM and Ford have won many quality awards over the competition.

jja, cool off fella! It took 30 years for the foreign makers to bring what you call the "good stuff" here. Their governments helped them along the way, Japan paid to develop the batteries and drive components for the Prius. What did Uncle Sam help the manufacturers with? Now, already passed, is $25 billion to help develop "green" vehicles, and the foreign makers are asking for part of that! Ford has passed Toyota in quality and GM is not that far behind. GM makes as many vehicles as Toyota with thousands of fewer employees, much greater efficiency. And if you really believe the union was that powerful you are sadly mistaken. When contract negotiations began every three, then four years, one of the first things the union did was settle all the greviences accumulated from the previous contract that the company violated. We got the magnificent sum of 10 cents, or less, on the dollar for each one. GM knew what they were doing each contract. If the banks and mortgage institutions hadn`t driven the country into a credit crisis, there would be no need for loans. Toyota , Honda are getting loans from government owned banks, so I suppose their workers got too high of wages, even though 33% of them are temporary, get less wages, virtually no benefits, and are on the streets of Japan as we speak. It would almost be worth it to see the Big 3 go into bankruptcy to see your face when the price of cars go through the roof because the foreign makers do not have the capacity to make up for the loss of production. That $22,000 Camry will be $30-40,000 in a hurry! That`s if they can even run in this country after the suppliers, 60% of the same ones the Big 3 use, go belly up! So, I can understand if you are frustrated but be sure you have all the facts before you tell people to shut up.

Creature, sounds like you are sincere, so thanks for the thoughts. The one thing a lot of people who were not at GM did not see were the changes being made by both the union and management in the last 5-7 years. Changes to make better quality, more productive, changes in work rules, ect. These are the things I saw first hand, so when people who were not employed there imply we were sitting still, that was not the case. Could things have moved faster? Yes. But there were a lot of changes made, and if not for the economy taking a dump we may not have been hit so hard. Still would have had reductions, but not this drastic.

Agreed 100%. The greed on Wall Street put this Country into chaos.

creature, same should be said for AIG, banks, investment firms, Fannie, and Freddie! There was no legal way to stop the bonuses since they were OK`ed under TARP, but they better have some protection now!

pharm
Mar 27, 2009 at 2:01 p.m.

I agree with some points you make. The Government/AKA GW Bush has a major role to play in the current situation. The Oil speculation is another. Even now with demand at record lows and supply at 16year highs the price of oil is going up. This has to stop. Think what will happen when the economy does pick up then oil will be moving up and past the $140 barrel price it was last summer.

I agree that the UAW and workers recently saw the light but it was too late. So I should have at least mentioned their recent efforts.

Still the majority blame falls on the management and should be that way. The money they are paid should come with a promise of running the company with good judgment.

creature, the UAW has been taking steps to help the company, Waggoner said as much at the hearings. They agreed to take the burden of health care off of GM`s back starting next year, if they get the money to do it from GM. The government had to OK that agreement, and they did. Wages are competitive between the auto makers, the difference is in the benefits. I understand that new hires at UAW factories will have a 401-k instead of a defined pension, a few years down the road, when the older, retired workers start to (excuse me) die off their bottom line will look better. Yes, there will be a shortage of oil, but the reason we had $4 gallons of gas last year was not because of supply and demand. Supply was up and demand down at the time, it was the money men from Wall Street speculating on the price of oil that drove it up. Granted, GM, Ford, made some bad decisions over the years, so has Toyota and Honda. Hopefully they learn from their mistakes. As for what vehicles they produce, the full size GM pick-up is still the largest seller in this country, even in this economy. Ford pick-ups are number two. Gm had three plants making large SUV`s because the demand was there. In the early to mid 90`s they lost a lot of sales because they could not produce enough of them. Now the cycle is back to fuel economy, and they will have to revamp their line-ups, but GM already produces more models that get 30 mpg than any other manufacturer. Our government shares some of the blame for not enforcing the "dumping" rules, they thought it was easier to pay TRA benefits rather than make a stand over a law. They also, when Mr. Bush Jr. became president, took away government funds directed towards battery development and other "green" car programs. There is a lot of blame to go around, let`s not put it all on the workers backs.

Part 2
The reason the company is in a mess is due to poor management and the decisions that were made to continue to sell vehicles that had no future with the rising costs of oil. To say they had no idea this could happen is false. I’m not an MBA and could see it coming a mile away. China and India have been increasing use of oil dramatically since the early 90’s plus the oil producing nations have expressed concern over Peak oil (meaning production falls short of demand) for several years. So why would anyone continue to push something the consumer in the end will not buy unless they didn’t plan on being in charge when that day came and that is the answer. Rick and his friends didn’t expect this to happen so soon and were caught with their hands in the cookie jar. The UAW has a part to play in the situation. They’ve known for years that U.S. manufacturers were not competitive but continued to push for more. Why would you do that. Educate your people that tough decisions have to be made for the good of the company otherwise you have the current situation which is no job and no hope of one. So here we sit today with the Auto Manufacturers telling the taxpayer either pony up now or its really going to get bad. It’s going to get bad anyway so let the chips fall where they may.

I hope all who are without work can find something soon. It might not be what you made before but at least its work and in time you’ll find better opportunities. Good Luck to GM’ers and GOD Bless.

Part 1
First off I would like to extend my most sincere apology to any of the GM’ers that might have been offended by my posts. It was never intended. With that said I was just trying to express my opinion that the Federal assistance given to GM may not have been the best idea from the standpoint of the typical taxpaying citizen. I say this because from the very beginning of the bailout/loan requests the auto manufacturer executives made it clear the money may just be a bridge to the inevitable which would be Chapter 11 unless people start buying vehicles again plus the auto manufacturers needed serious concessions by the UAW and its suppliers to lower the cost of operations. Taking all of this into consideration and the current state of the economy with jobs being lost daily locally and nationally my guess is people are not going to purchase big ticket items like vehicles unless they are given big incentives that defeat the purpose of making profit. So in the end the a Chapter 11 might be the best option for GM to reorganize into a company that can move forward and do battle with offshore manufacturers. The outrage or concern over the bailout/loans is why should the tax payer be left holding the bag should Chapter 11 become reality. Hopefully the U.S. Government would be the first in line and get back the 100% it put into the company. My guess is that would not happen as no one ever gets fully restored under bankruptcy court. So this is where people such as myself and others point out reasons not to dump money down the rat holes that are AIG, GM, etc. The GM’ers pay tax also and should have some concern also unless you plan on dying in the next 3-5 years and have no kids.

almeg and burbanmom - Ft. Wayne is a good place to work, but living there is another thing. The plant is actually by Roanoke, so look at the outlying cities too for residence. I was in Huntington for awhile. Good luck!
Oh, and the "J-man" feels for others as much as a sewer rat, so don't expect any understanding from him.

Joker- because people make you that way by cutting you down for what you do and where you work.Like I said before I wish everyone could make a descent wage and have good benefits.

The Taxpayer isn't paying for this buyout. Why can't people understand that. Yes the buyout will be taxed and the goverment will benefit. And on top of that GM is responsible for paying the bailout LOAN.So the taxpayer will actually benefit from this buyout.

I can just feel the love on this page! Why are former GM workers so defensive?

kglwright- Thanks for the info its nice to know there is a place to go where you can get up go to work and provide for your family without people cutting you down for it.I don't walk around with my nose stuck up in the air but I also won't walk around with my head down because people think i should be ashamed of where i work either.Its a job just like every other job you work you get paid and yes it pays good and the benefits are good but it's just a job.

WE the tax payer will at least get back a third of this buy-out because it will be taxed as income.

coppertop - I don't hear anyone complaining who got the SAP that we were entitled to anything. It was a business decision by GM, and a good one at that.Now, if your company was going to lay off 1 person and you were at the bottom, would you not be happy if they offered an incentive to an older worker to retire rather than laying you off? Plus, what benefits you have or don't have is from bargaining your OWN contract, and not using collective bargaining which may have gotten you more.That is your decision, and as all decisions one makes they have to live with it.

Chad Vader and Billy Durant:

Help me out on this. Had GM filed chapter 11, which by the way was inevitable without bailout money from us, would your pension fund still exist? If not, then we have every right to complain. It has nothing to do with hating the GMer's or being jealous of what they had. It leaves a bad taste in the mouths of everyone else fighting to stay afloat in this economy and you get special offers all the time. Not many jobs,if any, get all the special treatment you guys have received.

If the pension fund would still have been viable then I have no argument. It still looks bad but that really doesn't matter.

Answers please.

Burbanmom & almeg: my mom took the transfer back in "85 to the Ft. Wayne plant. There are a ton of WI people down here that you wouldn't get too home sick and its only about a 5.5 hr drive to WI. My mom is retired now but the plant down here is full of great people and the community here is not anti GM. In fact there are so many other larger companies most people forget it exists and don't even know where the plant is located.
It breaks my heart that my home town has been hit so hard by these bad economic times. I know that Janesville is a strong community and together you will all find away to get through this.

Has anyone wondered why no one has asked the question--Did GM negotiate in good faith? This last contract which was negotiated to be completed in 2011, put a lot of people between a rock and a hard place when the last buyout was proposed--Do I or don't I?--A lot of people held out to fill the contract so that they could get their retirement years in then retire at next contract. Now with what both GM and the Union are doing to these people is just outrageous. No not everyone is entitled to the benefits that GM offers it employees, but that is what the people from GM's past fought for for their future. I don't work for GM, but can understand the frustration that a lot of these people are now presented with. They thought they had security at least until the end of the contract, but now they may not even make it until the end of the year. How sad. Negotiating in good faith? I DON'T THINK SO. How could GM not have known that they were heading for financial ruin?

almeg Good Luck to you too! I know a few that went down to arlington it is warm down there. I'm looking at Lansing or Fort Wayne trying to stay close to janesville (family)

burbanmom- I am looking at either Ft.Wayne or Arlington TX. If I have to move, might as well be someplace warm! Good luck to you!!

almeg i agree i was checking into the fort wayne area and you can get more house for your money and the property taxes are 1/3 what they are here

With the attitude of this city towards GM worker's, relocation is looking better all the time.

Coppertop, you get what is negotiated, by you, or a union. SarahB, If GM goes bankrupt it is up to a judge what assets go where. I don`t know if the pension fund would go to the Pension Guaranty Benefit Fund. But I do know that that fund is almost broke, and in need of government money. That is where the GM pensions will be paid from.

The only ones "pissing and moaning" seem to be the ones that DON'T work there.

who is complaining about not getting what they are owed we are only defending what we have and by the way i wish everyone could have had the pay and benefits we have the only pissing and moaning going on here is from people who think we don't deserve what we have.

creatureinthefreezer... that surely is on comment I've been waiting to hear for a long time. (Post: Mar 26, 2009 at 7:55 p.m.)

I too, am disgusted with so many people pissing and moaning about not getting what they think they are owed for working for such a company they regard it as if it were a gold mine. I have a professional job myself making the same wages as many of those GM workers, and have been working this career for 26 years and each day that goes by, I feel more afraid of getting laid off due to economy reasons. If I do get laid off, guess what I get? Nothing but the measly weekly $363 unemployment check for 26 weeks. No bailout, nothing but maybe a "thank you for your service" and directions to the door.

chad_vader- Don't forget, AIG gave their employee's million dollar retention bonuses. GM is offering $20,000 to it's employees to quit or retire. Also, after over $160 billion in bailout money, AIG is now 80% owned by the taxpayers.

Question here regarding pension funds. Somebody with the knowledge, please answer. Regardless of whether this particular offer is funded by the pension fund, is one's pension fund backed by the U.S. government up to a certain amount of dollars? In other words, if this offer did come out of the pension fund, then the U.S. government (AKA we taxpayers) would be liable for covering whatever money was short from future pensions?

People can identify with GM, the big corporate meany that is easy to complain about as it is located across the country. AIG is just some company located somewhere else. Or AIG has better lobbyists.

also wildirishman if you read what you posted you would have read" buyout packages for the salaried workers" that has nothing to do with the uaw

Regardless of where it came from, it still was financially prudent for GM to do this. With those who could retire gone, those laid off can get a job again. That means less sub-pay needed to pay out (good for GM), less people on unemployment (good for the state and country), and the possibility for lower wage employees if needed in the future.

Doesn`t it make you wonder how the government got so much control over GM for $14billion, yet they really have no say about banks and AIG, investment firms in the TARP plan? If the AIG people don`t want to give the bonuses back, the government can`t do anything about it, but GM has no control over their own money. Did they get singled out?

well if its not coming out of the pension fund must be coming from the jobs bank or sub pay fund as they have been reduced or eliminated

GM prepares for job cuts, but no buyouts
U.S. loan terms cited; thousands to lose jobs
BY TIM HIGGINS • FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER • February 9, 2009

Government loan sets new rule
Buyout packages for the salaried workers appear to be off the table because terms of the U.S. loan agreement prohibit the company from using GM's pension fund to pay for those packages as it has done in the past, people inside the company said.

"The prohibitions on benefit increases under this covenant include ... a prohibition on the creation or ... payment of any obligations associated with any plant shutdowns, permanent layoffs, attrition programs or other workforce-reduction programs after the effective date," loan terms filed with U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission say.
At the time, GM said its pension fund was overfunded.
Because of the new restriction, GM would have to use money from its operating cash to cover buyout packages, something it is reluctant to do, the sources said. Some previous buyout packages were paid for out of operating funds.

It is because of those loan terms that recently announced buyout and retirement packages for UAW workers, which included $20,000 cash payments, were so much lower than packages in recent years.

There are still to many uninformed people in this blog. The money for the attrition package is NOT coming from the pension fund. The first 2 packages did come from the pension fund that was over funded at the time. Currently the fund is not at 100% and the federal govenment told GM that any attriton packages could not come out of the pension fund.

Creature, in my long work history I have also had times like yours. But as it has been explained in these posts, it actually is beneficial for GM to reduce employee levels by doing this. Is life fair? No, but if people would be as angry with the same greedy bosses that let them go without a severance as they are about us, then maybe more people would get them. People like to complain about unions, then cry because they didn't have any collective representation, which the labor movement was all about. Those greedy bosses love to see their employees complain about others who get better benefits, as it takes the spotlight off of them.
p.s. I am a big Packer fan. I was at work that day, as were many others. There is a point where the line could not run without enough employees, and that is not a real big number. So don't paint everyone with the same brush.

Creature,
The plant ceased production because of the economy and vehicles of ALL makes not selling. It was not because of the workers at Janesville Assembly. And for the last time, the attrition packages come from the GM PENSION fund, not taxpayer, government loan money.

creature, no TV`s on the line, just in the break rooms. You are right, if they declare bankruptcy the health care will be gone, and some of the pension for the younger workers. But, I`m sure that this buyout is coming from the pension funds as the last two did.

Why can't anyone get the story correct? The cash and vehicle vouchers were NOT offered to all employees. Those who opted for early retirement were not eligible for them. And once an employee accepts one of the GM offers, (buyout, early retirement, regular retirement, or relocation) they are no longer eligible for unemployment. The GM bashers might be a little quieter if the knew the facts.

Chad and the other GM posters you should see where the outrage comes.

My guess is there are countless people in Rock County that could tell their sad stories about working for years at a company and recently getting let go for no reason other than economy problems. The difference is they didn't receive buyouts or new cars just the pink slip and unemployment for 26 weeks at $363 that's it. No retraining for 2 years paid and the other perks GM workers got. So man up and take the heat it's deserved.

Don't whine about the lies your Union told you about job security. They sold you a false bill of goods. Remember back in 97 I think it was when GM shut down because of a Packer game because 90% didn't show up. What was the answer. Put in TV's on the line. Come on guys you gave the company the ammo to shut down the plant when they had the opportunity.

I've also had times when the layoff comes calling and each time had to start over without support other than UC. Now you'll all have to do the same as the rest of us.

I have a friend at Baker Mfg. who after 38 years was told we don't have a place for you anymore and got hardly anything. No big check. So thank your lucky stars. Thank the tax payers because it was said over and over again by your CEO that without bailout the company will file Chapter 11 and then all hell breaks loose for the contracts, pension, etc. That is a fact. Do some homework and read up on your CEO statements online. Without the money from the Feds you wouldn't have your $20,000 and new car.

In closing I harbor no bad feelings for GM or it's workers. I just am tired of the why me attitude and the appearance of entitlement many of you have shown.

gmretirednow - question: did you retire when you wanted to or when you were forced to? There is a big difference. The money we got was an incentive to not have us travel to other plants, so that others could get off sub and have a job, or to hire lower wage workers. It is actually a financial benefit for GM to have us retire. I would gladly give up the SAP if they would have let me have a job IN JANESVILLE till I wanted to retire. As I am not of social security age, this will help in the transition to another job.

jja - I don't consider having lost my job and having to spend 2 years for retraining coming up with diamonds. The $20,000 BEFORE taxes incentive to leave is ok, but will not put us on easy street nor even make up for lost wages.
Before people get on me, I will say that I am not complaining. This is another fork in life's road, but one that will not be easy or was something I really wanted to happen. But to imply we hit the lottery is just a stupid comment.

Most of the posters here do not know any accurate facts. Quit posting comments that are false. Buyout money comes from the PENSION fund that is already there for the worker. Also, if you take the buyout or retirement you no longer work for GM. So, you are no longer "layed off" hence, no unemployment!

gmretirednow, the point is if GM goes bankrupt you won`t have health care, unless you are 65 and get medicare. GM is cutting the payroll, and these buyouts are cheap compared to being on the company payroll. They have to cut, and a little incentive, Chrysler is offering $75,000,is not too much to pay.

ROFL beeferer. That'll learn'em

This is a terrible thing to have happen. a person getting a 30 year pension already has an opportunity to get another 20k plus a voucher. duh. why? GM wake up, save the money, they will have their pension plus health care and dont need a extra 20k. The ones who want and need help are the ones with not many years and no pension to look forward to..
As a retiree I feel lucky to get a pension check each month. I received not 1 penny of extra to retire and i was happy with that.

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
There. I beat them to it. You don't want to know what I was going to write.

jja - This money that was used in the special attrition programs is not your money or our money. That money belongs to the GM pension fund.

GM Employees fall in the crapper with OUR money and still come up with diamonds .

More accurate math would be 7400 x $20,000 = $148,000000.00 actual cash. The $25,000 towards a vehicle is moving slow inventory at GM cost to produce plus dealer incentives.

Most people knew struggling automakers General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC on Feb. 17 would ask the Treasury for money in addition to the $17.4 billion of government funding they already received. Suggesting up to another $22 billion, however, was surprising. Below is an outline of just what GM wants and plans on doing over the coming months, including cutting thousands more jobs and selling or eliminating some brands.

So far, GM has received $13.4 billion and:

will cut 10,000 salaried and 37,000 blue-collar positions;

will cut four brands, focusing only on Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC;

will make a decision to sell or phase out the Hummer brand by March 31;
offered the global Saab business for sale,
is requesting Swedish gov't support prior to any sale,
also, the Saab Automobile AB unit could file for reorganization as early as this month;

if a spinoff or sale does not occur, GM plans to phase out the Saturn brand;
GM's dealer count is projected to be further reduced, from 6,246 in 2008 to 4,100 by 2014;
is building a U.S. factory to make build lithium-ion battery packs,
and will make more than 60% of its fleet alternative-fuel capable;
will close an additional 14 manufacturing facilities by 2012, five more than were included in the Dec. 2 plan;
made a tentative agreement with the United Auto Workers union and GM bondholders;
may need up to another $16.6 billion from the Treasury if markets continue to deteriorate,
expects to begin repayment of federal support in 2012; and

says it might need more financial support in 2013 and 2014 if GM has to make contributions to U.S. pension funds;

wtp: "Yes we all would have love to work for GM and have the world handed to us." So finally one of the so-called GM-bashers admits that you would be one of the "bashees" (GM workers) if you would have had the opportunity? Interesting-but not surprising.
Meantime, other bashers need to know the whole dynamics behind these financial incentives before you critisize them.
By the way, didn't GM decline the last bailout?

They will get a voucher for a vehicle, and about $3000 after taxes. Depending on their other income, they will probably get some of the taxes back next year. Not really a munificent sum if you ask me.

SK - Do your homework before you post. This money is taken from the GM funded UAW pension fund. It is not from taxpayer or government loans.

Just think with 7500 gmers retiring that means that 7500 of us that are laid off will be able to work again and that doesn't include ford or crysler i guess that will put a small dent in the uc rate. oh and with my transfer i will take the money that use to pay for my 3 childrens education here, my house tax money utility payments state taxes ect....

Admit defeat. Quit taking more money from the rest of us!!!

Yes GM needs to cut the workforce to be in line with other auto manufactures/competitiveness. Needed to be done years ago. The fact is they are doing what they can now so they meet the government requirements deadline of March 31st otherwise they have to pay back the bailout money and cannot get more bailout money. So yes they are using existing bailout money as the bribe now in hopes of getting more.

previous buyouts have come from the pension fund if i'm not mistaken so that is probably where the are getting this money as well. some people are never happy they complain about us getting uc sub pay or the jobs bank and then workers give that up and get their pension and people still complain and by the way with the higher wage all came higher taxes you know the saying the more you make the more they take

ja67: Read again. It's worse than you think. It's not $20,000 OR a $25,000 vehicle voucher...it is BOTH.

Just is where General Moters getting the money for the buy outs? $20,000, or a voucher for $25,000 towards a vehicle purchase.

I bet the bailout money is going to this and we the tax payers is the ones that's paying for it.

I expect there will be a detailed article in tomorrow's Gazette expanding on this press release.
.
crash99, part of the bailout deal is that GM has to reduce going-forward costs. Since GM has been employee heavy compared to the rest of the industry and its market share for, well, at least the last two decades, I hope that this (as well as prior attrition efforts) can help bring the company back to profitability. It's the only hope we have for getting GM back in Janesville (and that's a very slim hope indeed). To the extent that the US taxpayer is lending GM money, an overall lower labor cost will improve their ability to pay us back. It's the same reason that a company's stock price rises when they lay off workers.

For those employees that don't take the offer I'll take it. I could use a new car and $20,000 just handed to me would come in handy too.

This is the reason why GM workers and GM has given the general public a bad taste. No other workers that has been laid off get these kind of concessions. The high wages they have been getting over the years has hurt the general public because of the inflation that prevails in the area where income is high for a few. The rest of us has to do with lower wages but live in a high price society. Yes we all would have love to work for GM and have the world handed to us. However there where only so many of these jobs and the rest of us have live with what we have and make do.

Joker-The details of this SAP were in a previous article. They were also in the letter sent to every GM employee. The deadline was March 24. This news brief was about the number of workers who signed up for it, local as well national. As for being "too brief", it was in the latest news blog. These usually tend to be brief and a more lengthy and detailed article usually follows. Therefore, I don't think this was "poorly written" at all. For someone with such a know-it-all attitude, I would have thought you already knew this. Well, I better get back to writing my book! LOL!!!!

like i said how many more buyouts will we pay for

think about how much is going to taxes with the car you only get $15,500. plus they will tax the 20,000. also so the government is getting a nice chunk of the money also

Did anyone do the math? That's $1,248,000,000 just in cash they are offering. I thought they didn't have any money????? If they have that kind of money guess they don't need to be asking for anymore from the government / public !!!
These people are constantly being handed golden tickets. Don't hear about any of the other millions of people losing jobs getting these types of offers.

Almeg, what you don't know could fill a book. My earlier post was more in reference to the poorly written news item by the Gazette. The article is too brief and does not put this offer in context.

It is paid for by GM (this is not the "buy-out" you are thinking of crash99). GM will not be spending MORE money, but likely less. That's the whole point. This incentive is 1 to a customer whether you are eligible for retirement or not (not "on top of" previous offers in that you are able to accept more than one offer-it means you rejected previous offers). Employees cut all ties, no unemployment, sub pay or insurance or any other pay(unless you are already eligible for retirement).

What about the GM workers in China? Are they getting a buyout?

i wonder how many more buyouts the public will have to pay for what is this two or three all ready

no unemployment, this sap. was an incentive for the folks who could retire.
They will get there pension

Joker-No. No. Didn't your sources explain any of this to you?
SarahB- It would be interesting to know those numbers...Maybe Joker can get them for us!

Can we get any numbers regarding how many workers from the Janesville plant have already relocated or are scheduled to soon relocate to other GM plants?

Huh??!! This story makes no sense. Is this in addition to any other severance package? Is this in addition to unemployment compensation?
I am not bashing GM workers, just trying to understand this offer.