JozeMozes,
no i not being affected by the layoffs.
wind power is a joke.wind power is not stable enough to use.if you look at peak power demands they are in the morning and evening.where wind power generates most of it power during mid day time.that and they cost anywhere from half a million to over a million depending on the size of the generator.plus the time of getting the base ready,setting it up.just to name a couple things.

I wish you well if you are one of the power plant employees facing layoff nobody. Incidentally in researching coal power generation some I do see that there is a glimmer of hope for wind generation. Seems they have increased power generation around 150% in the last year with some prototypes. I can only imagine the cost. If they could produce these units with some type of standard it might lower the costs sooner.

JozeMozes,
yeah im glad they decided not to build it also.its just a big waste of money to build anymore coal plants but coal gasification is a differnt story.yeah buring refinery waste,tires or just waste in general is bad you will have alot of different emmisions to look at NOx,co,voc,mercury slip and what ever your useing to control the emissions ammonia or something similar.

Sorry distribution lines rather nobody. Cassville I refer to this:

http://www.jsonline.com/business/3427709...

I did not buy it one bit and am glad our lawmakers considered the environment and our pocketbooks. I worked for a company whose products reinvented burning alternative fuels for power generation albeit nothing on the scale of 300 megawatts. I can tell you with all certainty that I would rather have the emissions from coal any day. Nasty things happen when burning digestor, refinery waste, tires (lol) or even methane. As a culture we lack the technological expertise to burn these exotic fuels safely. Look at the uranium waste we have no clue with.

JozeMozes,
alliant doesnt operate the transmission lines atc does and miso does all the dispatching for most of the midwest.alliant is a middleman.
as far as Cassville are you just taking about the addition there were talking about.no coal will never be as clean as a ng plant.

nobody, on the surface it is very easy to sit back and play armchair quarterback. It is a flaw of mine for sure. Thanks for bringing some more understanding. There are indeed many other factors to consider and there is undoubtedly nothing simple about power generation. One look at the engineering genius of the new Townline Rd. Calpine operations confirms this. I hope that you did not take offense to me stating to get rid of the middleman but if all Alliant wants to do is manage the grid and transmission infrastructure with other companies generating our electricity elsewhere then its high time to give Alliant a boot in the ass out of Wisconsin and bring in companies that are willing to put our engineers and operators back to work before they move elsewhere and are near impossible to bring back. Just to touch on your general theme of coal being so innefficent when compare to NG. What was Alliants plan or thought process then in trying to open that new Coal fired plant over in Cassville? Was it of a design that can compete with NG on efficiency or did Alliant get a great locked commodity committment on coal?

JozeMozes,
they dont use ccf its mmbtu for gas.as far as cost it all depends on where it coming from.(gas and coal)
if you get down to all the nitty and gritty of things coal plant cost alot more to operate also more poeple more maintance to figure in.outages cost alot more.there is more equiment compare to gas plants or calpine's combined cycle plant.
there is alot of other things to factor in to.
but where you get down to it combined cycle plant are more efficient.there heat rate is about 6500 compared to like alliants town line plant there is around 14000-17000 heat rate.

nobody, at what price per ccf does natural gas generation become more expensive than coal? I understand most coal is mined domestically so realistically there should not be as huge price fluctuations as compared to natural gas. I applaud WP&L's Townline coal turbine generation plant. It is one of the cleanest in the nation with their two filtration retention ponds and skimming operations. I always wondered where the slag goes. It has to have some HUGE mercury content!

smartypants
well the two plant they are shuting down dont run on coal.they are converted over to natural gas.dont get me confused with other people because i do know what is going on in these plants.if you know anything thing about heat rate you will see it cost less to run the calpine plant vs the alliant plants.since the alliant plant are natural gas converted.they are very expensive to run.because they waste alot of heat energy instead of recovering it and putting it back into the steam turbine.

i dont think you have any knowledge about how these plants work.but if you do you dont know alot then.there is more about a non reheat plant vs a reheat plant.or a gas turbine vs a conventional boiler.
i can go on and on about other things but i think i wasting my time.
calpine plant cost less to run compared to the alliant plants they are shutting down.

Smartypants I apologize in advance if I come across as someone who pretends to know everything. I do not. It would be great if people could help educate others considering their positions of being in the know. I would love to see a cost analysis of the 2 point some odd BILLION dollar figure, that I know, to automate meters with many of their shortcomings so far. Cannot find that pdf publicly or what the cost was to sponsor the Alliant Energy Center for 20 years. Can you point me to any information SmartyPants so I can satiate my curiosity? Thank You. I view the traditional meter as a solid state device with a very long lifespan with practically no maintenance. I understand the world is filled with wesley wesgonsins. I understand the difference between efficiency and economic and fully appreciate the regulation and cost of trying to do business domestically especially with "my" much espoused Nuclear need. I am highly suspicious is all of several hundred meter readers making that type of wage with benefits in 20 + years. Should I factor in remote disconnects? Is this something that these new meters will be capable of? This could be a substantial savings for Alliant as they could make money now reselling that power as opposed to waiting for payment, collections ect. We should theoritically see a decrease in our power bills then if Alliant is allowed by the PSC to manage delinquency more efficiently. Will we?

Okay, what now? Your last post didn't make any sense. Put the drink down and step AWAY from the dictionary, there, Mr. Wizard.....

Wesley again you contribute nothing to this thread or probably society as a whole. You are such a bitter person. Go hug your bitter buddy Joker. I am quite sure you can make one another happy. If the best you can do is post off topic about anothers OPINIONS from a different discussion in a vain attempt to drag his eReputation through the mud you are indeed too weak to entertain any further. Go get another free email addie, create another identity. Rinse and repeat until you have an epiphany (big word).

frusion, I got my information straight from a person DIRECTLY responsible for the purchasing of said equipment. Vague I understand. I will not jeopardize their employment. I know it is hard to believe as it is "shocking" lol. Sorry. I have tried to sit down mathematically and ponder how many employees this amount would have paid but do not have all of the variables as janesvillecomments so adequately pointed out.

I am curious as to who you are getting your information from but alas we don't want to get those in trouble with loose lips. Often times these companies fail to realize that their own employees are perplexed by their actions and wonder what their agenda really is but those darn nda's make that road treacherous. Regardless it does not really matter I suppose as the megawatts they are taking off line were not simply expensive to produce as they put forth rather juice no longer needed with manufacturing taking a beating here and not being able to sell those excess megawatts on the grid due to the "higher" operating costs. Just the same I suppose.

They're closing the plant because so many of the businesses they used to supply power to shut down.
Alliant is out to make a profit, after all. They aren't a charitable organization.
If you can't afford your electric bill, well then try unplugging your unused appliances, turning the lights off that are on for no reason, kicking your air conditioning up two degrees, or (and this is a big one) using your electric stove less often. Electric stoves are power mongers. As are microwave ovens.
Don't let yourselves get suckered into the 'Energy Star' rating when you buy your next major appliance. That whole deal is nothing but a Federally financed brainwashing tactic designed to make you feel better about what you buy, so that you will buy MORE, MORE, MORE, MORE, MORE.

And I quote from JozeMozes... "I do not know if you take some type of perverse pride in being the know it all smart ass but your dribbling diatribe is tiring"..."you are undoubtedly a lost cause. Opinions are like buttholes. And my and others opinions here validate your lack of reasonable thought"... It goes on and on and on and on and on.
All this from someone that supports David J. Fogderud, that 66 year old guy from Beloit that calls himself a 'pastor'. Fogderud was ARRESTED for not cooperating with police during a traffic stop after two young boys reported a kidnapping attempt involving Fogderud.
Let's all get our dictionaries handy and use big words in our posts, like JozeMozes does. And let's all post weblinks (cause as we all know, those are always safe)
For a full list of JozeMozes's twisted comments, just click on its name to the left of its post (in the red font) after it tries to come-back with a 'witty, intellectual' response. No need for a weblink here, folks.

smartypants,
quote:Then I suppose you would know that the contracts with Calpine are about to run out, and will not be renewed (trust me on that one)

so how do you know that alliant will not renew there ppa with calpine? the calpine plant is alot more efficent than any plant alliant has in there fleet.the alliant plant on townline only make about 125-150 megawatts to calpines plant on townline 650 megawatts.calpine contract ends in 2013.

JozeMozes... sorry, but you're wrong about the money Alliant has spent on automated meter reading. You might want to check again with your Alliant possy on that one.

Unlike eCowards who suggest removal of idiotic posts I love when the Gazette leaves them so other can see how ridiculous and off topic they are.

We can read all of your pointless thoughts easily also: http://gazettextra.com/users/wesgonsin/c......

I tend to try to stay on topic and offer my opinion until unsavory persons such as yourself cannot help but join an otherwise intelligent conversation. Easy to get side tracked entertaining mean spirited people like yourself so full of vile and injecting your opinion regardless of who it offends. Sort of like the American Idol whining, lol. Some choose not to contribute to stories of no interest to them. I suggest you try that but you said it best here:

Quote Wesley "Won't care about how other people look at me for feeling this way (their opinions are useless, and I don't care)
I could just care less, anymore. I wish I was Canadian (and yes, I am looking into that, to)"

PLEASE by all means move to Canada. We need people who care about other peoples feelings here.

WoW janesvillecomments! You opened some eyes there. Mine for sure! Excellent points and if you do not mind suggest some reading? You sound as if you might be somewhat inspired by Chomsky?

Next post has to be addressed unfortunately to the spammer wesgonsin. Grow up Wesley!

JozeMozes was laid off from two separate jobs in five months.
I think it has something to do with the attitude. People that gossip and talk smack behind fellow employees backs are always the first to go, and nobody likes a whiner.
Now, JozeMozes sits behind the keyboard all day, hunting for Gazette posters to slam from the safety of home. JozeMozes also is very into computer video games, so you know the type... An adult with an online gaming obsession.
I wish JozeMozes would have moved to Waukesha before being laid off from that last job....

America's best days are behind her. And to think all of you who drank Obama's kool-aid. What has really changed since he took over? I can think of one thing, less President bashing in the press......

Phasing out meter readers in favor of remote sensing was inevitable, regardless of power companies other business decisions or practices. The hardware and software is much cheaper in the long run than payroll, government copays and insurance expenses.
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The Samson Tractor Company eventually put quite a few horse breeders, blacksmiths and harness makers out of business as tractors replaced horse and mule teams. John Deere and it's competitors have been instrumental in phasing out the family farm. 80 acre family farms can't subsidize a 36 row planter or a $336,000 combine .
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Short-sighted business managers, stockholders and politicians have hurt this country by encouraging shipping our durable goods manufacturing to Mexico and overseas, but the long-term fact remains that in industrialized nations, the labor of the entire population is no longer needed. 80% of the population no longer NEEDS to grub enough food out of the earth with pre-industrial technology to feed everyone. Businesses no longer need the large clerical staffs to handle all the paperwork and filing cabinets to store it in. With cars being built to last longer (Detroit hasn't got back to the Model T durability, but they are working on it) and robotics being improved, we no longer need as many auto workers.
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In addition to our country's other problems, we need to figure out how to distribute employment equitably when everyone's services are no longer needed on a 40 hour/week 50 year basis. Since the majority of people have a strong work ethic (rooted in our survival instincts), we will need to be fair about distributing the labor and rewards and still maintain incentives for hard work and creativity. In America, we have passed the point of there being a productive job available for everyone, and will soon (if we haven't already) reached the point where encouraging/subsidizing higher education to soak up the excess labor market will no longer be sufficient to keep the unemployment rate down.

Just yesterday, I spoke with a friend whose brother-in-law from Beloit was laid off by Alliant about six months ago. After searching diligently for five months, he finally located a similar job in Minnesota. I wish the best for these newest jobless folks.

Wow smartypants I had forgotten all about their Brazilian debacle. Hydro Dam wasn't it? Wind power is indeed a joke by itself. It will not fuel our greedy needs. Sadly not only do government subsidies keep wind generation alive but so do the generous donations of well intentioned people subscribed to Alliant's Green Initiative. There are only two viable sources of electricity to meet our future demands. The Atom and that 386 billion billion megaWatt power plant that is always shining mercilessly somewhere on our country. Federal Infrastructure will be the only way to harness our only true renewable resource.

frusion @ janesvillean, to put it simply the more hands (companies) in the electricity pot the higher the operating cost that is always passed along to the consumer. Most power companies used to locally produce and distribute on their own local grid with the costs staying localized for your region. Bigger is rarely better. I see the benefits of a national grid and it's short comings thanks to Enron. We can ill afford their price fixing scams and ideas of a free market. By those standards we should be seeing super cheap electricity rates now with the electrical demand for the local auto industry off the grid. But hey operating costs are just that. Have to keep the beast fed from top to bottom until the natives are out of sacrifices then reorganize from the bottom to the middle. I do not pretend to know all of the intricacies of Alliant or mean to sound like a know-it-all. I am not an employee, engineer, purchaser or senior level manager. I have several family members that are and numerous friends and acquaintances that belong to their own charter club of the golden parachute order. I feel bad for Alliant's meter readers and call center folk. I know Alliant spent several billion (WITH A B!) dollars recently to upgrade your meter to automation and eliminatated many meter reader jobs by years end. I ponder how many years to see a return for this "investment?" Poor timing I guess?

JozeMozes, do you know anything about utility structure? I'm not even sure what you are saying with your comment of a power company being a middleman. Can you explain how you view utility infrastructure so I can understand what you are saying?

Joze, if you knew as much as you think you did, you would know that Alliant purchases the energy from the Riverside (Calpine's plant)through long term power purchase agreements.

Also, the rock river power plant is a gas / oil plant that is outdated and very expensive to opperate.

Lastly, that is not "all Alliant/WPL can do". They have also added hundreds of megawatts of wind generation to the power grid.

I was wondering when the Wisconsin utilities (of course Enron was some one else's problem right? - tongue-in-cheek) would join the rest of us in our revisiting of the 1970s and early '80s. I'll say this, from a distance it seems that they have resisted joining the economic hell-party longer than the rest of us. Of course things always look greener from the outside - tired cliche I know. Empty houses and businesses do not need too much power.
I here another buggy-whip industry may be the land-line telephone companies. Who has a land-line any more? No money, no job, a cell phone in every pocket = Ma Bell with a black eye. We did see the phone thing coming when the pay-phones disappeared outside the liquor stores - didn't we? Who'd of thought monopolies like the phone company and the electric company would ever falter? Weren't they always a good thing to have in the game Monopoly?
If my old Uncle Art had just lived a few years longer, his refusal all his life to get a home telephone and, insisting on only having one light bulb in the house would now have him on the cutting edge of culture by default. Go figure.
Thank the god of your choice there are a few McJobs left out there for all these recession refugees - if one just sucks it up and takes a career ego kick in the teeth. Wait - can't afford dentistry either.
Bob Keith
cooldadiomedia.com

anotherdoor, energy independence would be great wouldn't it? Not only from the oil companies but those that squander our money and resources between customer with a need and company producing a product (not a reseller). Is it odd that Alliant produces less megawatts per year, "indirectly through WPL" owns a 16% stake in ATC and seems hell bent on maintaining its corporate status quo while laying off employees directly associated with power generation to import power from other states while happily selling their emissions trading credits? I find it equally curious that Calpine just built a NG Power Generating facility on Townline and the best Alliant/WPL can do is offer a "new" antiquated coal generator in Cassville. Sorry to say it folks as it is rich with its own issues but it is time to unleash the Atom again here in Wisconsin. We need good, Clean and importantly Cheap power to look after those less fortunate but more importantly provide cut throat cheap power and infrastructure to help and lure in prospective companies. The days of subsidizing corporate power demands through cheaper bulk rates needs to be examined if we do not add more local capacity. Too many small business are broke and teetering on the edge.

Thank goodness wesgonsin paid his power bill to add meaningful debate.

I'm not sure what your point is, JozeMozes. Are you proposing everyone build their own powerlines?
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If they really are taking these offline -- and I was surprised to see no smokestack emissions when I drove by the other day -- that's good news for Rock County air quality, at least. I assume one factor in the closure was GM. Or would the plants be needed if the economy picks up again and we get new industrial facilities there?

"rid us of this middleman?"
They should get rid of YOUR job, too. That's assuming you have one of course.

Yeah. Solar panels, wind mills, and fireplaces or some sort of wood burner.

I do not understand why we need a "power company" acting as middleman selling us power that they do not generate?

There has to be a way to rid us of this middleman?