Eagle1 said, " I see poobah finally gave up the charade he is an independent, now that is progress, I guess."

I never declared such. I'm an unabashed democratic socialist and neither the Republicans or Democrats do much for me. I only wish we had 100 Bernie Sanders in the Senate and 435 Bernie Sanders in the House and a President Bernie Sanders. As you may know, Sen. Sanders ran as an Independent and caucuses with the Democrats for committee assignments. He was re-elected to the Senate last November with 71% of the vote over the Republican. Imagine that!

Long post but please take time to read and digest. 2011 Tax Facts: Personal exemption 3700. Standard Deduction if not able to itemize was 5800 for a single person and 11600 for a married couple. So 9500 deduction for single person and 19000 deduction for married couple. Page 98 of 2011 1040 instructions show that effective tax rate JUMPS from 15 to 25% for single taxable income of 34500 (total gross income of 34500 + 5800 = 40300. JUMPS from 15 to 25% for married couple taxable income of 69000 (total gross income of 69000 + 19000 = 88000). BTW. In both individual and married case the effective tax rate is nearly 13.8% on the income prior to the JUMP. Rate continues at this 25% up to 83600 for individual and 139350 for a married couple. Then gradually took additional steps of 28, 33, and 35%. MY POINT: People get your head out of the sand and realize that both parties in our government are heavily taxing the bulk of the middle class while hiding it with smoke and mirrors by creating this class warfare envy. I do not have the numbers but am guessing a good portion of this country that is not receiving government aid are gettting caught in this JUMP to 25%. And both sides claim they are trying to help the middle class ??? I am not buying it. They are helping the poor and the rich at the expense of the middle class. IMO

#1 The U.S. government is spending $750,000 on a new soccer field for detainees held at Guantanamo Bay.

#2 The Obama administration plans to spend between 16 and 20 million dollars helping students from Indonesia get master’s degrees.

#3 If you can believe it, the U.S. government has spent $175,587 “to determine if cocaine makes Japanese quail engage in sexually risky behavior”.

#4 The U.S. government spent $200,000 on “a tattoo removal program” in Mission Hills, California.

#5 The federal government has shelled out $3 million to researchers at the University of California at Irvine to fund their research on video games such as World of Warcraft. Wouldn’t we all love to have a “research job” like that?

#6 The Department of Health and Human Services plans to spend $500 million on a program that will, among other things, seek to solve the problem of 5-year-old children that “can’t sit still” in a kindergarten classroom.

#7 Fannie Mae is about to ask the federal government for another $4.6 billion bailout, and it will almost certainly get it.

#8 The federal government once spent 30 million dollars on a program that was designed to help Pakistani farmers produce more mangos.

#9 The U.S. Department of Agriculture once gave researchers at the University of New Hampshire $700,000 to study methane gas emissions from dairy cows.

#10 According to USA Today, 13 different government agencies “fund 209 different science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) education programs — and 173 of those programs overlap with at least one other program.”

#11 A total of $615,000 was given to the University of California at Santa Cruz to digitize photos, T-shirts and concert tickets belonging to the Grateful Dead.

#12 China lends us more money than any other foreign nation, but that didn’t stop our government from spending 17.8 million dollars on social and environmental programs for China.

#13 The U.S. government once spent 2.6 million dollars to train Chinese prostitutes to drink responsibly.

#14 One professor at Stanford University was given $239,100 to study how Americans use the Internet to find love.

#15 The U.S. Postal Service spent $13,500 on a single dinner at Ruth’s Chris Steakhouse.

It is crap like this along with mismanagement of Social security and Medicare and ridiculous defense contracts, not tax cuts that gave us a $16.4 trillion debt.

Nobody shows the confusion of the partisans more than Paul Ryan. His supporters have it in their heads he is some sort of small government guy while he votes for nearly every piece of legislation with spending in it. And his retractors portray him as this heartless guy that hates old people, despite him voting for nearly every piece of legislation with spending in it, the same as the people they support which in their words have compassion. The insanity of the partisans would be comical if it weren't so tragic. I see poobah finally gave up the charade he is an independent, now that is progress, I guess.

The only thing mouse and poobah are able to do is complain and blame. Arguing with them is like arguing with empty space. Nothing you say or do is correct, logical or intelligent to them. They are perfectly content in their little world of make believe.

wislady, I take plenty of stands none of them are very well represented by either party.

poobah, Good Lord that made absolutely no sense, but thanks for playing.

So lyin Ryan broke his tax pledge to Norquist and voted for tax increases on the wealthy. Let's all remember that in 2016 when he wants to be POTUS; he voted for tax increases.

And nothing is permanent - those "permanent" tax rates are only permanent until the next Congress votes to change them.

Also typical, are the people who don't want to take a stand, so they label themselves "non partisan". Some people have to make hard decisions, and stand with those choices, no matter how others try to paint them.

Eagle1 said, "thank you for illustrating to the non-partisans that there isn't much if any difference in the parties."

And thank you for illustrating to the partisans that there isn't much if any difference in the non-partisans. Or much, if any, difference between the non-partisans and the partisans, for that fact.

It is hard for liberals to understand facts, unless the facts are the ones they make up.

poobah and wislady, thank you for illustrating to the non-partisans that there isn't much if any difference in the parties, you have been a big help.

wislady said, "Typical of the dems, the Senate got the 154 page bill just 3 minutes before it was set to a vote."

Typical of the 40 REPUBLICAN senators (including Sen. Ron Johnson) who SUPPORTED the bill that they had for just 3 minutes before it was set for a vote. Typical of the Republicans.

wislady said, "Democrats, you should be shouting from the rooftops for your tax increases on the average workers...approximately $1,635."

Haha, Democrats! You just got done quoting Paul Ryan's statement as to why HE (as in PAUL RYAN) voted FOR (that's FOR) the fiscal cliff bill. Remember quoting him, wislady? He said, "Today, I joined my colleagues in the House to protect as many Americans as possible from a tax increase. We also provided certainty by making the lower tax rates permanent. Although I strongly prefer extension of current tax rates for all Americans, I supported the compromise bill that protects 99% of Wisconsinites from an income tax increase, limits the death tax, and prevents a dramatic increase in milk prices. It is by no means a perfect piece of legislation."

"I supported the compromise bill." - Paul Ryan. Haha, Democrats!

Typical of the dems, the Senate got the 154 page bill just 3 minutes before it was set to a vote. Sounds like Obamacare. So, now it is passed and we are seeing what is in it.

Both Ryan and Johnson have made statements, and also have their comments regarding the vote, on their websites.

No one is happy with this vote, and neither are Johnson and Ryan.

Here is a statement from Ryan:

“Today, I joined my colleagues in the House to protect as many Americans as possible from a tax increase. We also provided certainty by making the lower tax rates permanent. The House has already passed legislation to prevent tax increases for every American family, and it is unfortunate that President Obama insisted on taking more from hardworking taxpayers. Despite my concerns with other provisions in the bill, I commend my colleagues for limiting the damage as much as possible.

Statement from Johnson:
“Although I strongly prefer extension of current tax rates for all Americans, I supported the compromise bill that protects 99% of Wisconsinites from an income tax increase, limits the death tax, and prevents a dramatic increase in milk prices. It is by no means a perfect piece of legislation.

"The revenue raised by this legislation will equal approximately 7% of projected deficits. It is now time for President Obama and his Democrat colleagues to show the American public their plan to close the other 93% of the deficit.

"Our nation's debt now stands at $16.4 trillion, and has reached its statutory limit. We blew through the $2.1 trillion increase in the debt ceiling granted in August 2011 in only 17 months. This is clearly unsustainable, and President Obama must begin to work with Congress to reduce the size, scope, and cost of government.

"We are mortgaging our children's future. This is immoral and it must stop.”

Democrats, you should be shouting from the rooftops for your tax increases on the average workers...approximately $1,635.

Actually, Bowlgal, the people who have some explaining to do are the 151 Republicans and 16 Democrats in the House and the 5 Republicans and 3 Democrats in the Senate who would have let taxes increase by significantly greater amounts on all taxpayers by voting against the fiscal cliff bill.

The other person that has some explaining to do, unless he reverses course by tomorrow, is John Boehner for not allowing a vote on relief for Hurricane Sandy. This callous behavior has so incensed many legislators on both sides of the aisle that a member of his own caucus has said they may not vote to re-appoint him as Speaker over this slight and has suggested that people in the northeast do not contribute to Republican campaigns. [ http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/ho... ]

Obama increases taxes on 77% of us but lavish Hollywood gets 430 million in benefits. KISS!

Johnson and Ryan have some explaining to do.

Finally something that makes sense cancel the pay increase for lawmaker a good idea they don't deserve it. In fact another good idea pay them minimum wage and see how they like that.

Eagle1, a growing government and debt is something you apparently do not like. That doesn't indicate a majority of legislators, past and present, agree with your views. In fact, the results of their deliberations and votes would tend to indicate just the opposite. Quit projecting your views of government on our legislators. They have shown us, and continue to show us, their views of the size and scope of government via their votes.

poobah, let's see if we can simplify this, the continuation of growing government is not something either party is fighting against. And the increasing of the debt is a good thing how?

Maynard said, "Addressing (as in talking about) issues is Not fixing the issues.".

My point to Eagle1, and now to you, is that you're projecting on to every single legislator and assuming they also share your view that the size/scope of government needs "fixing." The size and scope of the federal government is something being debated with almost every single vote they make. Because you aren't happy with the results of their deliberations does not indicate they are not addressing the issue of size/scope of government.

whz-bng: Works like this ... Cutting taxes and extending credits such that some people not only do not owe any taxes but even get refunds using money from those of us that do pay taxes still count. BTW, that 47% remark was another self-inflicted Republican wound. Present tax system is broken ... present government system is broken ... No relief for the middle class that both sides claim they are trying to protect. If they were, tell me why a family with taxable income above $70,000 (and individual at $35000) has an effective tax rate that JUMPS from 15 to 25% while there were a series of rates (25, 28, 31, 35) for the higher income families. I believe it is because they will get the bulk of their money from the middle class and it will get even worse.

This wonderful new fiscal bill just added over $4 trillion dollars to our debt. How is that helping!

mouse...and if you think more taxes are in order, by all means, be the first in line and ante up your money. Or are you one of the half of the federal filers who pay no federal income taxes? And I bet Chris Chrisitie's heliocopter ride didn't cost 1/1000 of what Obama spent running back and forth to Hawaii.

maynard, How can there be tax cuts for 98% when 47% do not pay taxes? Just more lies out of Washington to confuse the public into thinking something good has been done.

Don't be surprised when you get your paycheck and it comes up less then before. Don't be surprised that prices have gone up. Don't be surprised your health insurance is going to cost more. Happy New Year!

Typical yadamouse, nothing to add...

Eagle1: Agree. Poobah: Addressing (as in talking about) issues is Not fixing the issues. Depending on our life span, my wife and I hopefully will not see the collapse of our economy and government. Sadly, I think our children and grandchildren will. I see no will in Washington to take up the tough work of entitlement reform to address the upcoming shortfalls due to the demographics of our country with the baby boom generation now starting to collect Social Security and Medicare. The Democrats will claim victory of raising taxes on the rich and preventing tax increases on others. The Republicans have the cover since votes did not happen until 2013 of technically voting for huge tax cuts for 98%+ of the people. Guru Norquist has already given them that cover line. And the posturing for 2014 will continue instead of do what is best for our country.

add another 3.9 trillion reasons with this new 'deal'

I have 16.4 trillion reasons why it won't happen, you said it yourself it has been going on since the first congress and it seems to continue to get worse. Enjoy your broken system.

Eagle1 said, "and if you really believe either party is going to address spending or size of government..."

What makes you think that Senators and Representatives from either party are not, have not, or will not address spending or size of government? This debate has gone on since the first Congress. Because you don't like the results of their deliberations doesn't justify the comment that they aren't going to continue to address these issues. They address those issues with almost every vote they cast, regardless if you like the results or not.

and if you really believe either party is going to address spending or size of government, I will let you pick out the bridge I will sell you. It WILL NOT happen, spending wil continue to increase as will the debt and lead to disastrous results. I don't need to listen to a politician on the floor who has been labeled as a 'conservative or liberal' to realize what they say is not nearly as important or as what they do. Our local congressman Ryan proves that with nearly every vote contradicting his speeches and rhetoric regularly. Yet for some reason his political opponents vilify him constantly because of what he says rather that what he does which is no different than the guys across the aisle. Can we pay attention and stop buying the BS for once?

eagle1 said, "meanwhile the truly clueless can't see the damage this will cause over time, $1 of cuts for ever $41 of new spending."

You obviously didn't listen to the floor speech by Sen. Enzi (R-WY) during debate on the Senate bill. He spoke eloquently of how in days past he, as one of the most conservative senators, often worked with Ted Kennedy in crafting legislation that successfully became law. The main thrust of his comments were that you often have to do things in smaller bills, as opposed to grand comprehensive laws. This is particularly true when dealing with such polarized factions.

This was not designed to be a grand comprehensive bill. It was a bill that enjoyed wide bi-partisan support in the Senate and the House. Some people are never happy. People are continually asking for less partisan bickering, more bipartisan efforts and when a bill is finally passed in that spirit they are still nothing but a bunch of malcontents.

Wislady....you have got to be kidding me! He didn't, did he?

Hypocrisy on display, as Obama hopped on the plane and headed back to Hawaii (at taxpayer cost of 7 million dollars).

Actually it just goes to show you that there is no two party system in place neither party has the best interest of the American people, they join together at times to stick to all of us, meanwhile the truly clueless can't see the damage this will cause over time, $1 of cuts for ever $41 of new spending really? with an already $16.4 trillion debt, then adding another 4 with just this bill, get ready for high interest, then high inflation, then a devalued dollar, it is truly past the point of no return in that too many people continue to support this idiotic government that continues to sink us with every action. Enjoy!

Just think of the budgets and other measures that could have been passed during the last three years if Harry Reid allowed an up or down vote on house passed legislation in the senate.

But the hypocrisy of the left fringe are too ignorant to understand.

It just goes to show what can be accomplished when Republican congressional leadership allows their chambers an unfettered up/down vote on bills. This bill would not be law if Boehner refused to allow a vote or if a significant number of Republicans had not supported it.

Boehner and McConnell have obstructed almost every turn of the way. McConnell will most likely keep his leadership role. Boehner, perhaps not. The ultra-conservatives in the Republican party may oust him in favor of Cantor, which would surely increase the speed with which the Republican party becomes irrelevant. The Republicans will be nominating ultra-conservatives over moderates that supported this bill and continue to lose more and more general elections. I welcome any further degree of their self-demise.

I just read that. Too bad for this country!

It didn't...sadly.

I hope the House bill has a lot more spending cuts in it.