callit- we agree on something!
fordfan- being older is a pain so again I see NO excuse why you cannot get an ID just one more PAIN in life you need to get along in society!
When they find the dead cold body of the elderly hope they still have their own teeth to ID THEM.

Like somebody else said if you are poor don't you need ID already to get all your freebies!!!!?????


"they are obviously not intelligent enough to vote anyway." ! )

More alleged voter fraud:
http://www.speroforum.com/a/JHJAYHFXYL12...

I see no problem disenfranchising anyone who participates so little in society they do not have a picture ID. In fact I hope ID is upheld in the court and keeps lots of Obama supporters from voting, they are obviously not intelligent enough to vote anyway.

No one can prove election fraud is not happening, it is not like AGW that is easily dis-proved.

frogger, cally and jcommon....I thought that I had given a pretty good example of why some elderly will be disenfranchised because I know a person that had this situation. It is a long process to resolve, is expansive to resolve and does not address any known voter fraud instances. So my example is not hypothetical but your offer nothing but right-wing echo chamber chatter.

I have decided to drop from this string of comments. Trying to have a rational discussion with some right-wingers is like talking to a cement wall. One is stone-faced, not capable of reasoning or logical thought and is extremely dense. The other was poured years ago and is holding my house up.

@studs: Nice try. All three of your "facts" are opinions. And that is a fact. Duuhhhhh.

I will ask again.

Without an ID how do you know the voter is an American citizen?

Fact: There is no voter fraud. Fact: Republicans have orchestrated this across the nation to repress the vote from poor, elderly, and minorities. Fact: Having to show identification to vote is unAmerican, a basic infringement on our rights.

Voter fraud has been proven, but I have not seen one disenfranchised voter come out. Please, stop with the hypothetical situations and give one concrete example of a disenfranchised voter. Anyone?

If you don't have ID then I guess you just cannot vote. If you want to vote go get your id. I stil don't get what the big deal is. Is it because if DEMs lose then they need something to try to get them to win like people voting twice or more with out proving who you are so they can get away with it? You will need one eventually anyway.

I love the freebies comment- if needing hand outs they get one FAST and not complain. Well actually I bet they would complain on that too!

See ID on a credit card is different than the option of see ID at the polls. If there is fraud on a credit card there is protection. If see ID or not when you vote where is the protection against fraud if sombody votes 2x because they know "the neighbor" isn't voting?

"SuperDave
Apr 22, 2012 at 12:06 a.m.
Suggest removal

@fordfan: Yes, I would think that a 92-year-old might need help to vote. You again mention Jim Crow laws - that is not applicable here, everyone is treated the same."

My point before as well. You are elderly and need help doing a lot of things. NO EXCUSE- because I am old.

Agreed...I still want the money though :)

SuperDave - assuming that you would wave your $500K fee, why can't the politicians who make fairly good money and supposedly know how to get things done, agree on some things through debate like we just agreed upon for free? Beginning to see a problem here :)

I think we can find some common ground here. As far as my second genius idea (require everyone who already has a state-issued ID to be required to show it to vote) - let me tweak that a bit. This only applies to new state IDs issued going forward. Each recipient would get a notice stating such (next time you vote, bring this ID - you'll need it to vote!). This gives the system time to adjust. Each voter on the rolls would have a new data field called "ID", which would be set to "N" until a new state ID is issued, then it goes to "Y". If "Y", pollworkers would record which form of ID was shown and which pollworker checked the ID. In addition, any voter that chose to show their ID to a pollworker would also be immediately set to "Y" to protect their own ballot. Anyone not choosing to do so would be unaffected.
There you go politicians. Where's my $500,000.00 consulting fee?

Libertarian? Ah....as you can see I only have 15 or so posts so not up on who everyone is out here. Funny thing, however, I haven't seen much difference between Libertarian and the new Republican/Tea Party and they typically vote Republican.

I have no problem with the second idea and I am not sure I understand the first. I do not object so much about the ID requirement as much as I do about the way it is implemented. If we look at objections, we know there will be an issue with some elderly. One way to fix that is to specify that those born in 1935 or before (or pick a year – I know you have a concern about verifying the age of someone without an ID but this only applies to the very elderly for the most part) are not required to use the IDs to vote as long as they have a current voting history. That should address many of the people that will be disenfranchised (nursing home residents, home bound people, etc.). As far as younger people in college and away from home, student IDs should suffice as they have student loans, records, etc. associated with the IDs. These requirements could be tightened down over time as they are worked into the enrollment process. Those who are middle age or lower and poor and do not drive, I am not sure how to handle that problem but I am sure that processes could be put in place to get them the official IDs required over time. The major issue is that with the quick passage and implementation of these bills across the US (including Wisconsin) with no known significant voter fraud and a strong unwillingness by any of the Republican's to compromise to address concerns, this certainly appears to intentionally disenfranchise voters. And it does accomplish that. Anyway, I think there are much better ways to get to the end point that the route that was mandated by the current laws just passed.

@fordfan: Wow, pulling out all of the stops! Right-wing, Fox/Rush...LOL! FYI, I am a Libertarian, have said so many times on these blogs but apparently you missed that detail. Also, I don't subscribe to cable TV so I don't watch Fox News. Give the cliches a rest.
Here's another alternative I just now thought of...how about giving everyone the option? If you want pollworkers to ask for ID before someone receives your ballot, you may state so and it then be required. If you don't, do nothing. This is similar to credit card policies, some people even write "See ID" in the signature line of their cards to make it more difficult if someone steals their cards. For all those people who 1) don't care, 2) don't have ID's and claim they can't get them (or it's just too much of a "burden"), 3) actually want people to steal their vote - then fine, do nothing and your ballot is compromised. For the rest of us who care about the integrity of the system, our ballot is protected and we don't get disenfranchised by the cheaters.
Second genius idea - require everyone who already has a state-issued ID to be required to show it to vote. Once they issue you a new D/L or state ID card, it becomes mandatory to show it at the polls since you now have no excuse. Everyone else is left alone - their ballot integrity is compromised but at least the rest of us are safe.

SuperDave – You also stated “And I cannot possibly answer the question "what is the process, effort and estimated cost please", anymore than you can tell me the true extent of voter fraud. Since it usually goes undetected, we will never know - that's kind of the whole point don't you see?”

I believe I posted three links that you apparently did not read (4/21 @ 1:24PM). At least that information is based on a study or actions by law enforcement. So you have no clue as to how much voter fraud there may be (maybe none that this voter ID will address), you know that it will take effort and more money for some of these people to get the proper ID but you are still willing to disenfranchise up to 5 million voters just to satisfy your right-wing paranoia (actual an excuse on your part as I do not think that you actually believe this stuff). You need to better understand the extent and the processes of Jim Crow laws also. I wound never want to unwittingly be an advocate for them.

Again, this only a way to disenfranchise voters who typically lean more heavily to the Democrats. Using your “justifications”, you can get it past the gullible, low information voters (primarily Fox News/Rush Limbaugh listeners).

SuperDave - To summarize, you just said that you agree with me and that you do not care if people are disenfranchised. Your nonsensical question about not knowing if a 90 year old is really 90 (I assume vs a 30 - 60 year old) is about as lame an answer as I have seen. And how you think requiring a 90 year-old to spend hundreds of dollars while working with states/counties that may be hundreds miles away so they can get documentation to vote when it is not readily available, vs a 25-year old who has a Wisconsin drivers license is treating everyone the same can only be resolved in the mind of a Republican (anything to win I guess). Wouldn't be easier to just no longer vote? After all it is only one person, right? That is precisely the intent of the hardline terms of this law and you very well know it is.

So be it - may you be treated fairly as you age. If Ryan gets his way, I know you will enjoy negotiating with the health insurance companies when you are in your 80s and I guarantee that you will have a pre-existing condition at that point. Enjoy your suffering and the torment of knowing they you created your own situation because of greed. Good luck!

@fordfan: Yes, I would think that a 92-year-old might need help to vote. You again mention Jim Crow laws - that is not applicable here, everyone is treated the same. And I cannot possibly answer the question "what is the process, effort and estimated cost please", anymore than you can tell me the true extent of voter fraud. Since it usually goes undetected, we will never know - that's kind of the whole point don't you see? I would favor this compromise: how about an exemption for those born before a cut-off year when many people may not have been issued a birth certificate? How about 1922? That group of people turn 90 in 2012. Requiring less documentation for them would be fair. Of course, then you run into the same problem, don't you? How do you know if someone was born in 1922 or earlier if they have no documentation?

Some people say there isn't any voter fraud. How in the heck would you know if no ID is needed and you just say yep that is me and say it again for the neighbor. SO WHAT you sign your name(or somebodies anyway). What does that prove- no ID to compare it to RIGHT!!

Need ID if you want sudafed so they log you to be sure you are not cooking crack. Maybe it was mentioned already.

"CallitasIseeit
Apr 21, 2012 at 11:14 a.m.
Suggest removal

So how do we know if a potential voter is a US citizen?"

Exactly- this was one of my points- It is my right to have people give proof of being a legal citizen.
How do they know I am "not the neighbor" voting for myself AND the neighbor.

How do those 21 million Americans without ID get social security, a job (I-9), welfare (if they don't have a job), rent movies, buy beer, open a bank account, etc?

Where is Republican AG Van Hollen if we have so much voter fraud in Wisconsin?

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3703

http://www.brennancenter.org/content/res...

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/86917...

According to research, more than 21 million US citizens do not have government issued ID. Eighteen percent of senior citizens have no current government issued ID. Twenty-five percent of voting age blacks have no current ID.

When picking up a pkg at the local FedEx office your photo ID is required.I don't see what the big deal about showing your photo ID is. You have one, need one so just carry it and show it. If stopped by local law enforcement you have to have one. Again what's the big deal

So how do we know if a potential voter is a US citizen?

SuperDave - “You think anyone would help her vote if for some reason she had never acquired an ID?” If someone needs help to get this doc to get an ID, is that not additional effort to get to vote? Seems like you just admitted that it was – Jim Crow like laws. So if someone is to help them (and there are many in this situation) what is the process, effort and estimated cost please? You are evading the question. Also where is the study that shows there is significant voter fraud that would justify disenfranchising millions of people across the US (this was a ALEC inspired law and not unique to Wisconsin – we know that Wisconsin had 7 to 20 reported cases in which this type of voter ID laws would not help)? Why not an exemption for those 65 and older as it would cover all of those without birth certificates? Or do you think that we have millions of elderly who go to multiple polling places on election day to cast multiple ballots?

If voter ID eliminates one million fraudulent votes (made up number for simplicity sake) but disenfranchises five million elderly, students and other low income people, is that justified? These laws MUST be based on something concrete to have any merit I would think.

Apparently tiredofhearingit no longer wants to talk about this. Too bad as I had another question for that person.

@fordfan: Yes! It bothers me greatly if someone were disenfranchised! I simply see the threat of voter fraud to be a much bigger threat than disenfranchising someone, although I acknowledge that that is possible. Seems like it's pretty easy for the vast majority of folks to get an ID in today's world. And for the tiny minority of those that were born without birth certificates or other documentation, surely there are ways to resolve that dilemma. This is not the 1880s, 1910 or even 1920. This is 2012. Surely you see the difference! A woman born in 1920 would this year turn 92. You think anyone would help her vote if for some reason she had never acquired an ID? Of course they would.

Today, Tuesday morning, last week to apply for a CCW permit, week before that to buy another gun.

SuperDave – from your link “Blacks were still elected to local offices in the 1880s, but the establishment Democrats were passing laws to make voter registration and electoral rules more restrictive, with the result that political participation by most blacks and many poor whites began to decrease.[6][7] Between 1890 and 1910, ten of the eleven former Confederate states, starting with Mississippi, passed new constitutions or amendments that effectively disfranchised most blacks and tens of thousands of poor whites through a combination of poll taxes, literacy and comprehension tests, and residency and record-keeping requirements.[6][7] Grandfather clauses temporarily permitted some illiterate whites to vote.”

This is precisely the point of why I am saying these are a new form of Jim Crow laws. Tell me something.....what is the approximate cost and procedure for this situation:
for a woman born in 1920 in a house in the middle of Kansas or Nebraska and was never issued a birth certificate (VERY common back then). She married a farmer who moved the family to Wisconsin and she never got a drivers license (not at all uncommon for that age/sex/marriage status of a female living on a farm). Tell me the cost for searching for and proving that she never got a birth certificate, finding all of the other supporting documentation of who she is and then getting someone to get her to the state office to get an official ID so she can vote. Who does all of this? What is the lead time to get this done? Where/how does an 80+ year old woman with no means of transportation, no assets to hire a lawyer to do this work for her, etc. get all of this done? Especially after she has voted all of her life never committing any fraud. Can you even admit that this is more costly and time consuming than bringing the previously required documentation to the polls? You obviously have this well researched so please share the process – be specific with costs please. Would it not have been more fair to exempt people over 65 years old for a few election cycles so these people would not have been disenfranchised?

It does bother me greatly when voter fraud occurs. Absolutely it does but show me a study with numbers of the estimated voter fraud (no right-wing Koch Brothers think tank studies please). Does disenfranchising voters bother you are all? And how many people should be disenfranchised before you would be satisfied that your “voter fraud” is eliminated? It seemed to me that 2010 was a pretty good year for the right-wing – voter fraud on their part perhaps? What about election fraud like in Florida in 2000 when GWB was appointed president? Does that bother you at all? I await some specific answers.

@fordfan: Please read this on Jim Crow Laws: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow
There is no "separate but equal" in requiring voter ID, everyone is treated the same.
Do you happen to know what documentation is required to get the free card? I can't imagine that that would be prohibitive to anyone. And does it bother you when instances of voter fraud occur? The article I posted quoted some as saying it happens frequently. That should concern every caring American.

Tiredofhearingit – what you are doing is reinstating Jim Crow type laws when you pass laws that make people without the proper documentation and without the resources to get that documentation either 1.) get that documentation at their own expense which for many can be significant (and I am not talking about that single “free” ID but rather the documentation required to get that ID) or 2.) just don't vote. In addition, this voter ID addresses no significant voter fraud – certainly not in the millions like the people who will be disenfranchised from voting. But then you get ALL of your thoughts and references through right-wing media (like jcommon and SuperDave referenced) so no need to think about this any longer. It would be just terrible to have a logical thought of your own. Go ahead and throw the constitution out on the landfill and then claim you have done a great thing. You will then be able to sleep better – until you lose your rights.

More voter fraud:
http://www.wnd.com/2011/10/355461/
And more voter fraud:
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2012/ap...

The inconvenient truth - yes, there is voter fraud.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/286...

The courage to admit what I'm doing? Ok, here's what I'm doing, protecting my and every other legal cast vote so that "All Men are Created Equal" and get one legal vote per registered voter in an election. No confusion if a voter is a citizen or if anyone voted more than once (under another voters name etc.) How does one do this? With an Id of course. I do have to ask you then this, Do you have an issue with providing an ID when initially registering to vote or just the fact that it be provided every time? I just want to see how hypocritical you really are.

My feeling is that if people are too inconvenienced to get an id, they're probably going to be too inconvenienced to vote. After all, it took me longer to vote in the last presidential and gubernatorial elections that it did to renew my driver’s license. I have to pull my id out on a weekly basis for various things.

tiredofhearingit - what does your comment have to do with voter ID? If you want to make the constitution the equivalent value as your land fill refuse, go ahead. I can't change your values. At least maybe you could have the courage to admit what you are doing, however..

"capricorn
Apr 19, 2012 at 9 p.m.
Suggest removal

I used it to take yard waste to the dump. Very important indeed.
I think the ID might be OK if the government picked up ALL the expenses related to getting a birth certificate
"

WHAT- you get this when you were born. What happens to if after is not the Gov fault if you need a new one!

Wow, must be a lot of suspicious looking people out there. Just pulled my D.L. out and it had moss growing on it. No one ever seems to want to know who I am. Some people tell me I should get a veterans ID,but what for, no one ever asked me for one.Oh wait, at Home Depot they will give you ten percent of purchases if producing one, but you don't get to vote.

EMMO - you seem to have overlooked the following: "When laws are passed to address non-existent problems while at the same time diminishing voter rights, ........". Something the right wingers seem to always do to take away our freedoms. To the right-wingers, winning for the Republican's always trumps honesty, fair play and patriotism.

Pick N Save for adult beverages is the only one for me in a long time.

It was called the First Amendment

Freedom of assembly, sometimes used interchangeably with the freedom of association, is the individual right to come together and collectively express, promote, pursue and defend common interests.[1] The right to freedom of association is recognized as a human right, a political freedom and a civil liberty.

Freedom of assembly and freedom of association may be used to distinguish between the freedom to assemble in public places and the freedom of joining an association. Freedom of assembly is often used in the context of the right to protest, while freedom of association is used in the context of labor rights and the Constitution of the United States, is interpreted to mean both the freedom to assemble and the freedom to join an association.

None of the examples you gave, Greg, involve what the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled is a "fundamental right" like voting is. You can't honestly believe that this is about the integrity of the voting process, can you? The R's lost that argument when they supported the idea of running 'fake' Democrats. This isn't even thinly veiled.

My husband closed out account at Aasociated Bank 2 weeks ago and all he had to do was give his name. She asked "Do you still live on ___ street?" He then walked out with $500. Scary.

fordfan - I also took a look at the US Constitution and I couldn't find anywhere in it anything about "Union Rights" or "Right to Collective Bargain" - could you please let me know where I could find that.

If voter fraud was a problem, I would support this, but the real problem is voter apathy. When 50% turn out is considered "high", making voting more difficult is not the right direction to go.

When I voted in February. Last time before that was to buy OTC decongestant at Walgreens in late 2011.
Not at the pharmacy for prescripts.
Not at the Credit Union.
Not at Woodman's to buy alcohol.
Not at Walmart to buy alcohol.
Not at Beloit Clinic.

Last time I sold my aluminum cans at the scrap yard

At the bank yesterday. And to the question of voting being a right under the Constitution...that's why I support voter ID. I do not want my right to vote to be taken away by someone pretending to be me. Ever heard of identity theft?

Last night picking up a package at fedex.

I had to show it at the primary for judge before the injunction. Before that, I couldn't remember the last time. I use credit cards, a debit card and travel a lot and rarely use cash. I just don't run into this constant showing of ID thing.

I did this morning at the credit union and I do everyday when I get to work.

gpeck, your may spark a trend. Just for the Under-aged: "Touch of Drunk", for twenty year-old's who want to buy some wine before their time...

I have had to show my photo-id every time I've picked up my meds at the drugstore and every time I've picked up a new firearm at the gun shop.

ID shown at liquor store
ID shown to register my son for school (Pre k-4 in Sept)
ID shown to be in tavern and I wasn't drinking alcohol
ID shown at department store when I used my debit card
ID shown at optometrist
Just in the last 3 Months

Am I the only one who's had any kind of medical procedure done lately? Your I.D. gets checked every time--& I'm another who doesn't consider it an imposition!

fordfan - when the Constitution was written, only male land owners could vote, and all the land owners were local. Voting was also held on that same very local level, so the polls workers certainley knew each eligable voter.
If they couldn't identify (ID) you, you did not vote.
So, what's wrong with requiring proof of identity - and place of residence - from a voter today?

I used it to take yard waste to the dump. Very important indeed.
I think the ID might be OK if the government picked up ALL the expenses related to getting a birth certificate. As it is the ID is free only if only ask for it to be free. Any other related expenses are borne by the individual voter.
Not fair.

When I voted in February. But not when I voted in April!
I can't think of any other time I've used my ID in years.

As the real discussion item behind this blog post is about voter ID and trying to justify it as the Fox News echo Chamber advocates, I took at look at the US Constitution of all things. It seems to have a great deal to say about voting but I could not find anything about voter ID. For some strange reason, voting seemed to be quite important for democracy and the authors of our constitution seems to realize this fact considering the numbers of references to voting process and also voter rights through a few subsequent amendments.

Then I decided to take a look at some of the ways people said they use their Ids. I searched on:

Blackhawk Community Credit Union, video store, city’s demolition landfill, PCCU, gander mountain,
walmart, check wrighting (sic), bars, Pick n save liquor store, USCellular. concert tickets, Logli's, etc.

Couldn't find any of these in the constitution. That being the case, I have to assume that from the very beginning of our United States, voting was always deemed to be of very high importance to our freedom and citizen controlled government. Our right to vote has been historically been held in much higher esteem than those institutions and activities mentioned above. When laws are passed to address non-existent problems while at the same time diminishing voter rights, and then using these lame equivalency comparisons, you are valuing our constitution at the same level as that cheap b-grade movie that your are renting or the trash you are dumping in the landfill.

gpeck-Walmart actually types in the id- or bday or soemthing they dont care how old you are.

Yep- Pccu was the last. I guess I am okay showing my ID so they know I am who I say I am!!
Sigma- agree ID to get cash.
Saxcat- at the landfill. He always asks for address and you DO NOT need to prove you live here. So if out of town they just need to pick and address. Then he looks at you as if he is trying to decide of you are telling the truth or not. Just ask for the ID and let me pass!!

The last time I had to was at Logli's because my credit card says "SEE ID" on the back. Few people check that though, which miffs me off.

I have had to show it when buying beer..and I'm over 50. Silliness imho.

saxcat-what are you taking to the landfill that you have to pay for? There is no charge!

Two days ago....at USCellular.

The gray beard (now even more gray than in photo) gives me away at liquor stores. No one wants to see an ID.
Greg Peck

When I bought Booze at Walmart.

Pick n save liquor store asks me every week. At Walgreens every time I get my wife's claritin D (thank you meth heads for that one.)

Hey greg, any pointers on getting past the regular landfill guy without paying? It reminds me of the red light green light at customs. Random, perhaps.

I actually complained at Blackhawk a couple years ago, I withdrew a couple grand in cash, just walked up to the counter and told them my account number. I go to the bank once, maybe twice a year, if that... they just handed it over. I was like..."really? you just hand anyone cash that tells you an account number?"... I think they cracked down now though...at least i hope so.
-
Besides that there are a couple bars that ID everyone, thats about the only time I do.

As twerp13 says, I've had to show my ID also. It is just such a natural common sense thing to do, I just do it without thinking. They're just making sure I am who I say I am

Dang it, forgive the spelling errors, I typed too fast and forgot to spell check.

Everytime I make a transaction at my credit union I have to show a form of ID. No problem there for me!

Last week when I wen to PCCU, then today when I bought spray paint and cough meds at walmart. Oh and last weekend when I bought ammo from gander mountain. And I should not forget when I had to make a return to a store without a peciept, they required an ID ! It is not unusual to have to show it 2-3 times a week from things such as check wrighting. Glad they do ask...IMO I think it should be required for voting, it is simple enough to do.