And, what is so disturbing about the elements of a market-based economy being enmeshed in the government of a capitalist country? And, it's only an oligarchy if you have a problem with that economy and the style of our democracy. In order to hold your opinion you have to disrespect the electorate.

I know democracy was first conceived in Greece. But I cited the Enlightenment as crucial to the current spread of developed, comprehensive democracy in the world to date. Citing the Enlightenment was in response to your comments about the paucity of attention on other civilizations.

As for us living under an oligarchy: I describe our penchant to consume (much of that consumption is for things we don't need) as hunting and gathering gone awry. Our pre-civilization urge to hunt and gather is over-powering our need to use our ability to think and use our time more wisely. Still, we are CHOOSING to over-consume, we are not being forced. Is it an oligarchy if fwe are choosing? Or is it a failure to understand that the freedom we have would be more wisely used to develop a genuine sense of fulfillment? With freedom comes responsibility.

Democracy 1st evolved in Ancient Greece. Even then, and throughout most of history, democracy has hardly been the rule of the people, by the people, for the people. In ancient times, you still had to be a land owner, and male, to participate. That held true for much of US history as well. I mean, it was not till the early 1900's that woman could even vote in this country! For the most part democracy is a good thing, but other forms of rule have certainly worked as well. Tyranny can take place in any form of rule. In a democracy the biggest danger is oligarchy. Where a group has so much influence that they take over, and control the democracy. Something I firmly believe this country is evolving into. Where the government class and big $$ business class are so entangled, that they are simply interchangeable entities. The people are duped into believing one party is better then the other, and squabble back and forth, all the while the ruling class laughs. As there is hardly any difference between the two, as both are fully entangled with huge corporate $$'s, and interests, who support them, and the politicians return the favor to them once in power. It's one big revolving door, that ultimately just crushes the people and democracy (it is what ultimately did in Greek democracy). They simply work as one big ruling class, under the delusion of democratic rule to the people. A few of us on the GAZ blog have shown clear and countless examples of this over the years. The whole bail out era post 2008 really shed light on how much we have truly moved to an oligarchy.
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I don't have any problem with the teaching of the evolution of democracy and our own civilization. Sadly, fewer and fewer even realize this countries own history, or it's democratic roots, or what liberty even truly is. With that occurring, it is why I firmly believe we now are moving to a nanny-government state, with the government being an oligarchy.

kiow......, I'll take your word that non-Western civilizations are getting short-shrift in the Academy; and I will consider that possible fact unfortunate. But isn't the curricula of schools worldwide naturally centric? And isn't it justified that there may be emphasis on Western Civilization in non-Western schools given that Western Civilization is the vanguard of word democracy?

As for your statement:

"During the Ming dynasty it really was an age of enlightenment, with exploration that far exceeded the explorers of the European worlds. With vast explosion of culture, science, engineering, philosophy, ext. Of course the real "gift" (not sure that is the right term) to the European world was the gun, and gun powder."

Okay, on the science and engineering stuff. But how did the Chinese "Enlightenment" contribute to the social and political developments that account for the wave of world democracy taking place in a fraction of the time of China's existence? The horror of Maoism began almost a hundred years after slavery ended in this country.

If you happen to live in a country and civilization that is genuinely in the category of exceptional, there's no reason to deny the exceptionality of that civilization.

As for tomes on non-Western Civilizations, I doubt that those of us who are truly interested in those subjects will find a substantial absence of such books.

gazettefan:
Not sure I know what precisely you are asking? My basic point was that history today is taught almost entirely from a European perspective. Very little is even taught or mentioned about other civilizations in most 'academia' circles here today. That is not to say European history should not be studied, or is inferior, by any means. It's just that if one is to truly study history, it is always good to have a very broad perspective of the many civilizations that have existed. If you read most history here today, you would think that civilization (pre pilgrims coming to America) only existed between warring lands of Europe.
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To your other question, the Aztecs, Mayans had no real age of enlightenment. They were vastly different cultures then those of Europe lands, and with the Mayans much is still of great mystery, as almost all records of their civilization was burnt up by the Spanish conquistadors. The Chinese's history has been one of centuries of Dictatorial rule, and the people (peasants) rising up to over throw those rulers. It's a history that dates back well before Christ. It is another very mysterious culture, that only of recent outsiders have truly began to uncover (with today's age of information-globalization). As after the fall of the Ming dynasty the Chinese went into total isolation to the outside world. During the Ming dynasty it really was an age of enlightenment, with exploration that far exceeded the explorers of the European worlds. With vast explosion of culture, science, engineering, philosophy, ext. Of course the real "gift" (not sure that is the right term) to the European world was the gun, and gun powder. A Chinese invention that was probably the biggest game changer in all of warfare, and consequent course of history. A very small group Ming overthrew the gigantic Mongol empire all with the power of gun powder put to use in a firing mechanism (the gun). Their invention hardly remained a Chinese secret, and found it's way to Europe in no time, and would soon change all of Europe in warfare, and conquest. I could write in much length about both civilizations, but the information is of course all out there. People simply need to open their mind to it.

kiow......, it seems to me that the America-hating tenured radicals in the Academy wouldn't give short-shrift to non-American and non-European civilizations. If you disagree, state how bad the problem really is.

And, did the Mayans, Aztecs, and Chinese have anything comparable to the Enlightenment that would allow democracy, as we know it, to develop?

Thanks gaz-fan:
There is no question the Mayans had some extremely strange beliefs, as did the Aztecs, when it came to blood, and the belief of offering blood via sacrifice to their Gods. That still should not over shadow the majesty of two prodigious ancient empires. Both who built unbelievable capitol cities, and had knowledge in many areas oh math, science, and philosophy that FAR exceeded those of Europeans. It is most unfortunate that history is still taught from an EXTREMELY biased view point, based all primarily from European roots. The ancient civilizations of the Americas, and the Chinese, have some extraordinary achievements that far advanced those of Europe, which is now being taught as pretty much where every modern advancement of civilization began. Really a shame.

Great post, kiow......

But try to pull the reins in on human sacrifice.

Thanks vn.....

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Why would we take seriously the "prediction" of a people who didn't even have the wherewithal to invent toilet paper?

The Mayan calendar, and the Julian - Gregorian calendar that we use in most of the modern world today are two TOTALLY different calendars. The Mayan calendar date (the Dec 21 day)is simply converted from there complex mathematical calendar to a Julian - Gregorian calendar day which we can relate to. One poster on here was somewhat correct in his take. The beginning day of the Julian- Gregorian calendar (and birth of Christ) is a complete creation of the Roman empire, and the church. The reality is that there is no record of the actual date of Christs birth (to say he never lived is ludicrous). Records were never kept of births back then, and birthdays never celebrated. Christmas is really a Pagan holiday. When the Romans converted to Christianity under Constantine, they simply used the period of wild party times in which they used to celebrate Pagan Gods, and the coming New years as an in between point to celebrate the birth of Christ in place upon their empire's conversion to Christianity from Paganism. When the Protestants broke away from the Roman church, they did not even recognize the complete bastardization of the Roman Empire's created fabrication of the day of Christs birth. The early Puritans in the US also denounced the day, and claimed Christmas was just a complete farce that did far more damage to the name of Jesus then good.
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The Mayan calendar is a very complex mathematical calendar, far more complex then what the dimwitted Roman Church came up with.. They Mayans had FAR greater knowledge of mathematics and astronomy then did the West. Much of Mayan literature was destroyed by the Spaniards as sacrilegious. To say it truly ends on Dec 21 is not even known for certain. It's quite possible it ends there because the rest was destroyed by the Spanish conquistadors, as most of their great culture was.
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I would not be to concerned myself, and I'm pretty confident that I'll be celebrating the great Pegan holiday of Christmas with my family!

I won't be nervous as I'll be carrying (as usual from last holiday season on) thanks to Governor Walker.

I'm hoping Santa brings Illinois a nice 2nd Amendment gift this year and that the FIBs and Cheeseheads ccw permits are recognized in each others states. It would be nice not to have to stop at the state border and disarm before entering the Land of Lincoln.
http://www.rrstar.com/blogs/chucksweeny/...

Please don't wake me if I'm dead. I won't waste time worrying.

Do we get to start over at year zero? basing our current calender year system off a ficticious character needs to go. Back time some drunk fool probably made this all up....he'd probably be rolling in his grave laughing if he knew 2012 years later people are still going by it...lol.

Oh no, who should the people believe? The Mayans, Christians, Romans, Capitalists, Budists, Muslums, Fox News, Jesse Jackson, Rush, or the Morman church? My gut tells me I'll be fine on the 22nd.

Speaking of big moments in world history:

Matthew 16:28: I [Jesus] tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
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So, he was supposed to return and establish his kingdom during the lives of some of the people he spoke to. Didn't happen.

All believers are welcome to impose their special brand of verbal gymnastics to get Jesus out of the above mess he created for himself.

The power of suggestibility, lack of modern medical knowledge, lack of any knowledge really created Jesus. Not so hard to figure out. Recreate what happened 2012 years ago today and see what the explanation is. Was Jesus examined by a doctor to be pronounced dead? What college did he attend and where did he practice medicine at? People are mistaken today as dead all the time because of such a slow heart rate or other issues. 2012 years ago they didnt know what that was. For us today to still think that something magic happened....ONLY because thats the story handed down is complete ignorance. As for the Mayan calendr.... we cant even predict tomorrows weather how would anyone have a clue? Especially primitive people with limited knowledge? Wooo... so they made a calender. Wow.

Gazette fan, your comment to Sandman... : )

I don't know much. I do know that if i wake up on Dec.22 and the world has ended I will be one mad S.O.B!

One can only imagine what the photos of the "end" will look like.

Being wrong about whether Jesus existed as a mortal man does not give credibility to claims of the supernatural or false prophesies.

ImJustSayin: There is not much doubt among scholars and historians that Jesus of Nazareth was an actual person. Where the debate comes in is whether or not he was the son of a god.
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So, by your proclaimed way of measuring evidence, there would be much more reason to prepare for the end than not. Better get your ducks in a row, my friend! I'm just sayin...

Right on, Sandman. They should play the 12 Days of Xmas non-stop at Gitmo. The prisoners will start yakking like magpies.
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Religious belief is not imagination. It is a hard-wired portion of the brain that may have had some survivor value back before we evolved biologically and culturally enough to develop the ability to think clearly about reality.

That religious belief is primal and dangerous is evidenced by the fact that of the three major religions, islam is the only one that's predominantly dangerous. Unlike christianity and judaism, the horror of islam hasn't been diluted by atheism, humanism, and democracy.

HG....VERY WELL SAID

mgcarguy: Very astute, and thanks. I've fixed the glitch in that sentence.
Greg Peck

Anything based on a belief is idiocracy. Its sad that most people will never live past their imagination.

I think the commercialism of Christmas should be cancelled anyway. Christmas is a spiritual Holiday but man has turned it into a financial Holiday. Shame on us all. How many of us can actually say with all honesty that when we are out griping about the high cost of this and fighting over who gets the last of that, that we are actually remembering the REAL reason for Christmas? I bet not many of us at all. Did the shepherds, or Kings, or Wise men compete to see who could give the most gifts or spend the most money to get a gift to give? No, they were honoring our new born king, Jesus. And the gifts were given to Jesus not to each other. And for the life of me, I cannot remember Santa Claus following the star to Bethlehem. So how did he get in the picture and over rate Jesus anyway? What connection to Jesus does Santa Claus have that makes him part of the real reason for Christmas? Its a shame what has become of our Savior's Birthday. Let us just suppose the world is going to end on Dec. 21st. I say, "Good!" Its about time. Happy Birthday Jesus, please forgive us all.

I think I am ready....I have packed bring the spaceship...take me to the mother land

Greg, I am a little confused. When you wrote they don't believe the world won't end this year are you trying to say they believe the world will end this year ? Remember, if you answer this it won't cost you nothing.

All I want for Christmas is a black cowl and a large bone horn so that I can walk the streets warning the believers and the nonbelievers of the impending end of days.

The world WILL end for SOMEONE on Dec. 21st. As for the majority of the population...I think they're safe.

If the world does end on or around 12/21, at least we won't have to listen to incessant and ubiquitous Xmas music (what are there - 10-12 songs?) and be exposed to the seemingly endless sales promotion ads and emails for another week or two afterwards - so there is a positive side of this prediction!

It's not the Mayan calendar that ruined this Xmas, it's the constant barrage of commercial Xmas hype that long ago killed most of what Xmas was really about - a quiet, family- and tribal-oriented Winter Solstice holiday that is meant to help one reflect on the passing of one year and the prospects and opportunities of the future in yet another year about to come. Sun, Son - same thing, different take!

Really...If you truly believe this i have a bridge i can sell you....Get real people and you better start your Christmas shopping or your family will be very upset with you...

End of the world?
Happens all the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dat...
for many past, current, and future ends.
Also, if your life sucks,
maybe it's not Obama's fault.

Yes, I beleive in Jesus. I also believe that he said that when questioned about the end times he said that only person who knows when the world will come to an end is God the Father. Not the Mayans or the guy who says a certain date at a certain time. Am I worried? No.

well i'm glad its on a fri , did it give a specific time? i do have plans that fri !

I think the results of the latest presidental election cramped my xmas spirt far more than any Mayan prophecy...even if it were to come true...We will be saddled with the gift of debt, taxes, welfare, job loss, inflation, and overall decline...that will keep giving for years to come... Mayan prophecy doesn't seem much different

The SHORT COUNT Mayan calendar is 52 of our years long. The LONG COUNT Mayan calendar is 5,125 years long. Their new LONG COUNT calendar starts on December 22, 2012. The world will not end on December 21, 2012. That would be like saying that the world will end on December 31st every year. It doesn't- we just start a new calendar year. So let's just ignore ignorant myth about the world ending this year, OK? Thank you very much.

Gosh, if you believe a guy named Jesus Christ was a real person, you might as well believe in the Mayan calender thing too since there's exactly the same amount of evidence for both being true.
I'm just sayin'...