Realist - My teachers always used to tell me that the most important thing is to read the directions carefully. Apparently your reading skills need a little fine tuning because I never said teachers were OVERPAID. What I said was they're not underpaid, and that claiming they make some kind of meager wage is a ridiculous point that needs to be dropped. If you don't believe it, then maybe you should do a little research into what private sector jobs are paying to college educated professionals. It's pretty difficult to find a job paying over $50k in Rock County....and those are for positions where you typically work more than 40 hours a week all 52 weeks of the year, so getting a summer job or getting paid to teach summer school aren't an option to supplement that salary. And by the way, despite what teachers seems to think, most professionals these days are required to continue their education in order to stay competitive, and often to keep their jobs. Your assessment of business practices makes it sound like you don't know much about them. Competition among school districts for the most qualified teachers is not going to drive down wages. That isn't how competition works. In the days of open enrollment and school vouchers, schools are competing against each other to draw enrollment in order to get their funding. They all want to be the best because that's what draws enrollment, and that's where the money is. You can't be the best without recruiting the best teachers out there. The system is set up to work in your favor. I find it hard to believe that the most educated people out there can't work cooperatively with a school board to develop a system that works for the education field. There is no one more qualified for the task. I fail to see the harm in trying to come up with a better system, instead of screaming, yelling, and fighting about unions and contracts. My opinion on teachers is that they don't need a union because they certainly can come up with a better system than the failing one we've got now.

MrItalian was complimented for saying:
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"As long as the Janesville school teachers are lead by Dave Paar I have to assume that they are the most arrogant, self centered group of indivduals I have ever seen.
I believe that the majority of our school teachers a good hard working indivudals."
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Well what is it? You say they are arrogant, and self centered... In the next sentence you saythey are hard working individuals...
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And for this non sequitur sniveling you are applauded...
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Yes.. Proof we have some educational issues going on in Janesville.

I love when people say "the median income is 48g, teachers are over paid because they make more than that". I guess sigma is right, a college degree is useless. Why dont you brain childs make a fair comparison of teacher pay to that of other college grads, not the burger flipper.
By the way sigma, i guess i am used to not being thanked for what i do since i live in janesville. I am just thankful to have a job. I know there are thousands lined up to fill my position for half the money and will do a better job. I agree with another poster that there should be bonuses for teachers. I am sure billy would jump all over giving me a bonus because my kids did well on a test. Should be easy since i have all advanced placement students. Sucks to be the special ed teacher. This education system should be run like a business. Only the strong, or in this case, smart survive. Competition will produce results. The only problem is we cant ship our kids over seas and get them educated for slave wages. So i guess our only resolve is to break the unions and pay our teacher "median" wages. Makes perfect sense. Walker is so intelligent.

MrItalian - I could not agree more!

I am an educated working professional. If I am offered a job, I have the ability to negotiate my own wages. I do not have the ability to negotiate what my employer will pay for my health insurance, etc. as is the case in all private sector work. If I don't like what a company is offering, I don't take the job. I work hard, have regular performance reviews, and feel that I am working for something when I am rewarded for my performance. I get raises because I earn them, and I can have them when I earn them because it's not restricted under a contract. If I am unhappy with my job/company/location, etc. I can seek employment elsewhere. I do not understand why other educated professionals need a union. I would not want to lose the ability to negotiate on my own behalf and be rewarded for my own work. The working conditions in classrooms are not exactly life and death, so what working conditions do they need to have control over? Every other working professional out there has to adhere to a company dress code, work hours, etc. Companies in the private sector have to offer competitive wages and benefits in order to draw the best employees. School districts wouldn't be any different.

I ask these questions because I honestly want to know. As an educated working professional that has to continue my education and certifications in order to stay competitive in the job market, I really don't understand why teachers need a union.

(Also, given the number of teachers in the Janesville School District working 9 months a year and making more than $50k a year - not including benefits - when the MEDIAN HOUSEHOLD income in Rock County is around $48k, I think we're well past the point where anyone can claim that the teachers are underpaid or making meager wages. That whole subject needs to be dropped already.)

Those who dislike teachers
Your childern will end up paying the price in the end when there are not good teachers left
The good ones will leave

MrItalian, your comment is one of the best analogies of the mess that I have seen. So much common sense! Thank you!

Sigma:
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We have some common ground I think... So I can also share with you some good news.
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In the past,, Especially at some of the U.W. campuses... Undergrads who were targeting teaching, specifically K-12 diddn't see classroom internship or student teaching often until senior year..... This practice has changed in the last 5 or 6 years.
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Making teachers is not so easy... And learning subject, and learning how to teach are two different things entirely... Both need to be addressed in undergrad work. Which is happening...
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Just thought I would try to inject something encouraging into the conversation.

As long as the Janesville school teachers are lead by Dave Paar I have to assume that they are the most arrogant, self centered group of indivduals I have ever seen.
I believe that the majority of our school teachers a good hard working indivudals. However they are not any better than most good hard working people who work at other jobs. They don't deserve special treatment.
It's time we takee a hard line position with them.Negotiate in good faith and make them an offer that is fair and reasonable. If they don't accept it then tell them that their jobs are no longer secure. There is an unimited supply of indivduals who have or will have teaching degrees that want to work under a fair and reasonable contract.
We don't need a teachers Union. We need teachers who want to be treated like the majority of us who work. You are paid for performance and it is not guaranteed. You need to pay your representative share for health and retirement benfits like everybody else. Youe benefit package will be in line who every oneelse in this country who works. You are not going to revered for what you do. You will be simply respected for what you do. Just like everybody else

realist - What public schools teach kids how to be doctors? I am talking teaching public schools here. Teaching should be just like any other job. You need to take a test to be hired, then given a probationary period and re-evaluated after a period of time. Te tests the students take can be a reflection of how well the teacher is doing.
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On a side note, I do have a couple degrees. I deemed them worthless because all the teachers did there was relay what was in a book to you. I can do that myself. I learned more out of school than I did in. My degrees are only 10% related to my job anyway. Physics plays a part in properly flipping a burger.
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vnvet7071 - At least I have people lining up every morning thanking me for my services. What do you got? :)

Hire those in office for $0000000000 If they dont want to work for that to bad

It will be nice when act 10 is no more

Sigma, isn't it time for you to start making those egg McMuffins ? Judging by the egg on your face, you maybe have.

sigma
So a college degree is a worthless peice of paper. You must not have one.
So in your logic you should not need college to teach. Sounds good, then I don't want my doctor to have any education either. I know this guy who never gets sick and he is in his 80's. He must know what he is doing. He even told me that a shot of whiskey a day is the trick. He should be a doctor. He is obviously an expert. You are about as ignorant as the logic in this post.

Lar80 - You say we dont have enough skilled people to fill the jobs of teaching. I would blame this in years off poorly unskilled teachers trying to teach. Our education system is already and has been a fail. You just pointed it out perfectly.
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College and a degree does not mean a person can teach, it means they might know the material. Some of the best knowledgable teachers Ive known had no degree, they had experience and knowledge. Maybe they should consider hiring people based on that instead of a peice of paper that said they went to a college? Anyone can get a degree today. My opinon they have become meaningless and worthless.

Sigma, I have a news flash! We are already losing teaching graduates, and teachers to other states.

Bankers and accountants that don't work under contract? Every banker has a contract and benefits package. These are educated people and expect an honest wage and respect from their employer as well as the ability to renegotiate.

All I can say to the teachers is, Welcome to the new economy! Time to put on your grown up clothes and get to work.

Lar, trying to present logic to this one is a waste of time. He thinks himself always right and no one can convince him otherwise.

" Look how dumb we are as Americans " ... Sigma, you are speaking for yourself again honey. Close your eyes and maybe this will all go away.Ok, now open, any better ? Now pull those fries out before they burn !

Sigma Says:
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"There will always be people available to work."
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How out of touch with reality this statements proves you.
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There are literally thousands of jobs in Wisconsin right now being unfilled.. Despite the high unemployment rates.. Because there are not people with skills to fill the roles.
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If the people can't do the job.. They are NOT AVAILABLE. Period.
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Wisconsin teachers have better salary and benefits than most of their peers nationally... That does NOT indicate they are over compensated.. It means they have good jobs.
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Take much more away from them and they will flee the state for similar wages in warmer climates and our children will be stuck with what if anything is left.

Arguing this is stupid. Teaching is just another job. You have bankers and accountants that dont work under contracts. They handle all your money. I think a teacher working without a contract can do the same. Look how dumb we are as Americans, I dont think we can do worse. The current system is obviously not working.

This is exactly why unions are needed.

That's true at McDonalds but who do you want teaching your children?

There will always be people available to work.

Sounds like Sigma wants to be a teacher!

Then when nobody will work for those slave wages sigma, they'll have to offer more. Or deal with bottom of the barrel workers.

Same should be true for McDonald workers Sigma, if you burn the fries, bye-bye.

Cure to all problems.....Get rid of all contacts. Hire the teachers for X amount of dollars. If they dont want to work for that....bye, go find employment elsewhere.

rprp, he doesn't have that power; it would be completely unconstitutional. For the most part in this country we don't allow our leaders to be fascists.

Sounds like a union lawyer threatening the board. Typical union move. Walker should abolish all unions including the farmers union.

There is a fine line between collaboration and negotiation.

I thought arbitration was Parr's only pacifier. He squawked enough about losing it.

It boggles the mind to think that someone actually believes that something can be unconstitutional for only one county. Even the Appeals Court recommended that schools negotiate with their unions - pending their decision on the case. Should the court later decide that the Dane County Judge's ruling is, indeed, correct, the Janesville district will be in a world of hurt for refusing to negotiate.

“No one person, no one alliance, no one nation, no one of us is as smart as all of us thinking together.” — James Stavridis Let's replace the word confer with collaboration.

The key phrase being "any worthwhile management".

Do they really need a law to tell them they can't work together to outline working conditions and benefits? They need to work together and come up with a plan that is fair and equitable for ALL! Employees should have an input on working conditions and any worthwhile management should seek the employees input!

About as balanced as a bicycle with 1 wheel.