Not this guy. I'm the ultimate purist. My favorite games are 1-0, 2-1, kind of games. The games where base running, hitting the cut off man, hitting behind the runner, pitching, and defense matter are my kinda games.

Many fans are guilty as well. By a certain point in time it was obvious to all observers that steroids had tarnished the game, but it was the fans who loved to sit in the parks and cheer the 500 foot blasts. Now, many of those same fans speak of their disgust with the whole thing, but where was that disgust when McGwire and Sosa and Bonds were lighting things up every night?

Well, rtabb, you do make a good point. Bud Selig and the owners knew full-well what was going on, but the long and frequent homers were filling all the parks, and none of them wanted to disturb the cash cow. That is shameful. They allowed baseball's most sacrosanct records to fall to very unworthy players in order to count more dollars. Jose Canseco has said, in his book "Juiced," "I am just one of many guys who would probably never even have made it to the majors, let alone starred in them, if I hadn't used steroids." He talks about the drugs not only adding tremendously to his strength, but also improving his eyesight and reflexes, all vital to long-ball hitting. If that's true, then it lays to rest the argument that they don't really make players better, only stronger. If Canseco is right, they do indeed make a players ability to play the game much better. In the early '90s Tony Gwynn, one of the most respected players in the game, said that about 50-75% of the players in the game used steroids. Nobody wanted to listen to him. They wanted the money, not the integrity.

How about just not having a baseball hall of fame?? Just like everything else, integrity & character are compromised by the few, the selfish, and the hypocrites and the many who hold doing the right things to a standard have to suffer because of it. We've sadly become a society willing to tolerate the evil's so that we may be entertained. Shameful.

I agree Joe65, my point is where do they draw the line? The "good ole boys" that run baseball made millions off these accused stars. Everyone knew they were using yet no one in power did anything execpt turn a blind eye. I also hate the "character" clause that voters can hide behind. Babe Ruth was womanizing drunk, Ty Cobb went in the stands to beat up a man in a wheel chair who was heckling him. I just do not like the double standards baseball has. You (mlb) knew they were using yet did nothing about it until years later (after the users saved the game) and now they punish them. So now what? No one from "the steroid era" gets in? I guarantee everyone this. There was a whole lot more players using then just the ones we hear about!!

I agree with you wholeheartedly on Trammel and Mattingly. I think Biggio will go in next year. Joe DiMaggio, Yogi Berra, Ryne Sandberg and many, many other superstars were not elected in their first year of eligibility. Sometimes the voters get a silly idea that the first year comes too soon.

Oh yeah and Sigm40...we know it's just a game with a ball and no one should care...I'll save you the time and posting it for you.

So we're all clear: Biggio got hosed today. I'm ok with Bonds, McGwire, and Clemens being left off the first ballot (consider this their slap on the wrist), but they had tremendous careers deserving of the Hall.
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Side note: How is Alan Trammell not already in? Mattingly too?

Well, yes, you are correct there. Every voter brings his own standards to the vote, sometimes in direct disobedience to the electors' rules. For instance, Bill Mazeroski is in the Hall of Fame. Mazeroski was a brilliant fielding second baseman who wasn't much of a hitter (.260 career avg.-138 HR over 15 seasons) and was a below average base runner. But he hit one of the most famous home runs in history, the only walk-off homer in history to win a seventh game of the World Series, in 1960. The Hall's voting rules say that no one can be elected for one outstanding game, or one outstanding season. But Mazeroski is in the Hall because voters were swayed by that one homer. If anyone thinks he's there because of his defense, I would ask why Mario Mendoza isn't in. Mendoza, a notoriously poor hitter, was the best defensive player in history. (He has the best fielding percentage ever.)

Joe65 - Good point...I am mainly playing devil's advocate here, but I definitely do not agree with how the HOF vote is being conducted. There are no standards. Each voter seems have their own set of rules and they almost always end up contradicting themselves.

Well, yes, technically they were. They broke the game's rules. But it is a big mistake to equate all types of rule breaking. Just as the law recognizes differences in seriousness of crimes, so should baseball fans. :-)

According to Official Baseball Rule 8.02 (d) "The Pitcher may not intentionally pitch at the Batter. If, in the umpire's judgement, such violation occurs, the umpire may elect to: 1.) Eject the pitcher, or the pitcher and the manager, from the game..."
This rule makes it very clear that it not legal in baseball to throw at the batter.

So Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan (known headhunters and current HOFers) were cheats then too?

It is NOT "perfectly legal in baseball." If the umpire determines that it is done intentionally, the pitcher is ejected from the game. Every ejection is accompanied by a mandatory fine. In addition, there is almost always a suspension. That means the pitcher loses a large amount of pay, as each day of suspension is deducted from his salary. And, although it has only been done a handful of times, the person who is hit can sue the pitcher in a court of law.

Joe65 - Throwing a baseball at someone's head in public is illegal, but yet it is perfectly legal in baseball and is actually common practice.

kenny powers--Sorry, but YES, steroids in baseball were illegal. They were not on baseball's banned substances list, but they WERE illegal in THE UNITED STATES!! They could not possibly have been LEGAL in baseball if they were ILLEGAL in the whole country!! If baseball had omitted putting heroin on its banned substances list, that would NOT mean that heroin was legal in baseball!!

Also, rtabb, cortisone is a steroid, but it is NOT an anabolic steroid, which are the muscle enhancers, and are the ones that are both banned by baseball and illegal.

rtabb--Maybe they didn't fail a test but both McGwire and Bonds admitted to the use of illegal steroids. Personally, I don't think that Gaylord Perry should be in the HOF. He was a cheater. But he's in, and that's that. That does not mean, though, that all other cheaters should also be allowed in because one was. It's like saying that if one criminal is found not guilty we should stop prosecuting all the other criminals. Rose also does not belong in the Hall. Every single spring of his career he sat and listened to a representative of major league baseball explain to his team (this is done every single year in every single spring training camp, and has been for many, many years) what the consequences are (lifetime banishment) if one is caught betting on baseball. Rose was a baseball historian of sorts, and knew the full story of Shoeless Joe Jackson. Despite these warnings, and despite this knowledge, he chose to bet on baseball games anyhow. He laughed at baseball's rules, so now baseball laughs at his pleas for reinstatement. It's as it should be.

Very well said kenny. You are right on. I remember Greg Anthony (ex nba player) saying that he feels a cortizone shot should be considered a PED. How many guys have been "shot up" over the years to play? It is a steroid hormone. He said he remembers players getting yelled at and punished for not taking one. He said players would turn it down because they afraid of the side effects. Cortizone shots are legal but they are a steroid. All of sports are walking a slippery slope right now. Imagine the "legal" supplements you can buy at GNC or at Complete Nutrition that will be illegal in years to come. Don't get me started on whether or not steroids actually help you play a sport anyway! Baseball is still a game where brute strengh really doesn't make or break you. Your hitting a round ball with a round bat! If all it took was steroids to make play like any of these guys, sign me up!

Acai - Tommy John surgery also has nothing to do with one's rotator cuff (shoulder). It is a surgery done to repair the UCL (unlar collateral ligament - part of your elbow).

Acai, the point of this blog is that it's not black and white issue. Gaylord Perry is a 1991 HOF inductee. He is a cheat. He doctored baseballs for his entire career. Should his Hall status be revoked? I am positive that there is a good portion of the current HOF that are cheaters (admitted or otherwise). HOF voters are tip-toeing a very thin line by disallowing players that they think cheated into the HOF. If you head down that slope you have to be prepared for the witch hunt that is going to create.
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I don't condone the use of PEDs, but baseball essentially did during the entire steroid era. Players that single handedly saved the game are now being villainized (sp?) by writers and owners that turned a blind eye so that they could make a buck. Put them in the Hall and put an asterisks by their name if you must, but even that seems silly to me.
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Back to elective Tommy John surgeries. Are they illegal? Nope, not yet and players are benefitting from this currently legal practice. In 1990, was the use of steroids in baseball illegal? Nope. Were "greenies" illegal as recent as 2005? Nope, Mike Schmidt (HOF '95) benefitted from that. Contact lenses (albeit a silly comparison) are performance enhancers that do not occur naturally in the human body. Ironically testosterone does. Who are these voters to say one form of cheating is ok, but another (PEDs) are not.
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Hypocrisy+Cheating=Baseball

The irony is that had it not have been for Clemons, Bonds, Sosa, McGuire....Baseball would have been bankrupt and replaced by something like bowling as America's favorite passtime. People seem to forget that baseball was in the tubes untill these guys started swinging homers....and besides...it's estimated that 80-90% of all professional players in the biz are taking something.

Actually, Bonds did admit he "accidently" used steroid laced horse ointment. Blamed his trainer. Either way, he did cheat and he lied to cover it up. People shouldn't be rewarded for fraud!

Good posts. Also think about how many players ALREADY in the Hall may have consumed 'greenies'?? A substance now banned.

in todays world if your really good your using ped's. Last time i check records are met to be broken but now all i hear is it because of ped's

400excracer and Acai. They never failed a MLB drug test so you assume they took PEDs. Now with that said everyone knows they were using, but again.... they never failed a test! My point is if you start keeping people out because you assume they cheated you are opening Pandoras box. Are you going to keep players out who play in the "live ball era", or who doctored up baseballs. Stats and numbers are kept for a reason. As long as they never failed a MLB PED test they should be voted in. Rules are/were in place to try to stop the use of PEDs, kenny_powers is right owners knew what was going on and turned a blind eye to it because of the money that was being made. Owners are just as much to blame for the steroid era if not more then the players themselves. How can you keep them out when you (mlb) set the rules/tests and these players never got caught breaking set rules/tests? IMO it is as simple as that.

KennyPowers, contact lenses and rotator cuff surgery aren't banned by the league!! Why is it every subject in America has to be analyzed for loopholes to get around the obvious answers? There's right and there's wrong. Actions have consequences. Accountability should be a standard, not relative.

One of the things that made MLB great was the numbers. Everyone knew the single season HR record. Everyone knew the carreer HR record. Now that these cheaters have ruined the sacred numbers the sport isnt the same. The numbers dont mean nearly as much as they used to. There isnt good way of picking who gets in and who doesnt since we dont have proof who cheated and who didnt. Just letting them in is a disservice to the players that did it the right way. I say that they keep out the obvious ones (Bonds, McGuire, Sosa) and put in the others with an * saying that these players played in the steroid era. Either way, the records should not count for the obvious cheaters.

Food for thought: MLB turned a blind eye to the steroid era because it brought the game national and global popularity like it had never seen before. MLB made money and so did the sports writers that are voting on these players HOF fate.These guys were never suspended for PED use, but now baseball has decided to take a holier than thou stance. It wreaks of hypocrisy.

Rtabb - Correct, agree to disagree. It will be very interesting to see how the steroid era players are received by HOF voters.

None of them....including the Cards Big Mc and Brown....or whatever the Brewer cheaters name is.

Good points Kenny, I just feel Sosa's power numbers during 98 thru 03 season were as impressive as anyone who has ever played the game. Those numbers are HR-332, RBI-808, AVG-302. I just feel Sammy and Mark are basically the same player. Yes Mark won a gold glove, and he won 3 silver slugger awards. Where as Sammy never won a gold glove but , he did win 6 silver slugger awards. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Rtabb - You make some solid points for Sosa, but if I were a HOF voter he would not get my vote. I am a life long Cubs fan too. In my opinion Sosa was a defensive liability (Mac won a gold glove). Sosa led the 3 straight years in strike outs (Mac had his fair share of strike outs, but never led the league). McGwire's HRs per plate appearance (1 HR every 13) is better than Sosa's (1 HR every 16). Sosa did have a speed element that led to a higher average and more SBs for that matter. McGwire's career OPS is more that 100 points better than Sosa's. OPS is a very important stat to me.
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Sosa and McGwire were two very different players early on in their careers. McGwire won a rookie of the year (49 HRs as a rookie) and was consistently a better player than Sosa (very likely due to a life dedicated to juicing). McGwire was also once the "home run king"...for 3 years. Sosa was a very average player for the first 4 years of his career and then something "clicked" offensively.
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There doesn't seem to be a set formula for the Hall, but Sammy doesn't get in for me. Great career, but not a HOFer IMO.

Right on.

I would bet only Pete knows the answer to that one. :)

Excellent. I've always agreed that the major sticking point was that he bet on his own team. That bet HAS to be part of your thought process when you make game decisions. I assume he only ever bet on his team to win, but do you know??

I did some research on Pete Rose and here is the definitive response. "The Major League baseball rule Rose violated makes no distinction between betting for or against your team, only that you bet on them and were in a position to influence the outcome. The rule is: "Rule 21 MISCONDUCT, (d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES, Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible."

Yes Tim it was in the handbook when Pete played. My understanding is it was put in to "stop" another blacksox type scandal. Think about this, we could possibly have a baseball HOF without the all time hits leader and all time home run leader! That's like a football HOF without Favre and Emmit Smith!

Thank you sir!!

By the time Braun is done passing tests and hitting homers his tainted sample will be long forgotten. Oh, sure, they'll discuss it at voting time, but I'm confident those who vote will not care. I think him finishing runner-up in the MVP the year after the tainted sample incident is a pretty good indicator.

Good point rtabb about the handbook. Was that on page one when Pete played?? I understand the bind that Pete has put himself in, but arguably one of the greatest hitters EVER should be in the hall of fame. JMO...

BTW, great topic Tim! This is one of the most interesting topics in all of sports. Alot of different opinions and great discussion!

Sosa stats, 18 years. AVG. 273, HR. 609, RBI. 1667.

Big Mac stats, 16 years. AVG. 263, HR. 583, RBI. 1414.

How can you vote Big Mac in and not Sosa? Numbers don't lie!!

I feel they should be voted in. They never failed a drug test (that i'm aware of). Pete Rose should not be in! I love Pete as a player but he bet on baseball! I remember a couple years ago watching a sunday night game on ESPN and Orel Hershiser stating "that every year on the first day of spring training every player is given a MLB handbook. The first page of the handbook states you are not allowed to bet on baseball if you do you will be banned for life". Don't hold me to the exact qoute but it was something along those lines. So basically Pete knew it was wrong yet he still did it. Bonds, Big Mac, Clemens, and Sosa as far as i'm aware never failed a MLB PED test, so how can anyone hold it against them because they think they took PEDs. Now factually speaking we all know they were using, but again they never failed a MLB test. If you don't vote them in you open pandoras box. How do you vote when Braun is eligible? He failed a MLB PED test. I know he got off but he still failed the test so the damage has been done. Now if MLB wants to go back like cycling and look at their samples and spend the money to re test and find that they used then my opinion will change. Until then I vote them in!

I vote no, get there on your abilities, not with your abilities on steroids.

For the record Lar80. Not counting the gas for what you drive. I can get 4 of you in and out of Miller Park for most games for less than a 20 spot.

http://gazettextra.com/weblogs/peace-and...

It's funny.. I lived in Oakland one BART platform from the stadium, where my sons and I caught the "Bash Brothers" in theire most exciting years. We could sit in the bleachers for a few dollars and take the train for a few cents. Working at SFO for 15 years I also caught many games at the Stick, enjoying Barry Bonds and Matt Williams prime years.
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MLB has become a different thing.. The same trip to visit the Brewers would cost well over $100 and I just won't abide it.
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So now I watch the Sappers.. $8 for a front row seat, dollar dog nights and free parking. Young talented men trying so very hard to get a step up the ladder, and just as many 90mph fastaballs as you see in the biggs.
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I no longer care about Bonds and his ilk..
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Consider my vote and absention.

Hey now, show some love for Sammy Scarecrow. For a guy that expanded his strike zone to any pitch tossed between the on deck circles, he put up some gaudy numbers.

Good post KP. I couldn't agree more.

As always, well said KP!! I agree 100%!!

I would vote Rose is without “batting” an eyelash. I even wrote a paper on that during my sophomore year of college (the paper was terrible if you are wondering). What he did to get himself declared “permanently ineligible” was pretty minor and was more than likely a decision that had more to do with two very stubborn individuals rather than the infraction itself.
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I have a hard time with Sosa, Bonds, McGwire…etc. because they got cartoonishly big with whatever they were using. Bonds was on track for a HOF career prior to his “growth spurt,” so I have always been disappointed with his decision to use PEDs. McGwire was likely juicing right out of the womb and Sosa was a mediocre player, at best, prior using PEDs. Conversely, these guys single handedly brought baseball back into the global spotlight while simultaneously casting a very dark cloud over the game.
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Baseball is a game in which players have been bending and breaking rules since the first pitch of the first baseball game ever played. Whether it’s a pitcher doctoring a ball, a batter shaving the handle of his bat, a player using greenies to “get up” for a game, stealing signs from second base, removing the back line of the batter’s box, a player injecting anabolic steroids into his bloodstream, or a player using the latest recovery drink to help them through the grind of a 162 game season… baseball players cheat. It is part of the game. It always has been.
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Where is the line drawn? Contact lenses are technically performance enhancers. Elective Tommy John surgery is most definitely a performance enhancer that prolongs a player’s career and allows that player to come back throwing harder than ever.
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Based on resume alone…Rose should be in. Bonds should be in. McGwire should be in. Clemens should be in. I don’t think Sosa should be in the Hall.

Well said saxcat. I have a few friends who have chimed in that they would let them in. I'd most def vote Mr. Rose in to the Hall. It's really a shame he's not in now. I understand most of that falls on him, just sayin...

Nevermind. Probably over your head. Thanks for reading though!!

In these days of "nutrition through GNC" The line between legal and illegal is so blurry I pay it no mind. If the stats warrant it, their in. Pete rose for certain. Don't care if he bet on baseball, and I think he's a jerk. but I'd vote him in

what?