What has happened to John's blog? It's been a long time since this one appeared. Hope he is ok.

He was definitely acting according to scripture, but only if god told him to do it.

They just executed Chemical Ali for the genocidal gassing of 5,000 Kurds, do you think Chemical Ali got his morals from the bible and was just attempting to be more god-like?

Good point, they should watch their Ps and Qs. Perhaps they should consult a theologian or something.

Actually some of them view it as god's will that Haiti suffers so them helping to ease that suffering would be as if they stepped in to stop the spearing of male babies during the Numbers 31 massacre. They are impeding the will of god?

They should be: after all, they approve of his "righteous" behavior.

Maybe they are all over in Haiti, cleaning up the aftermath of god's rage?

Which of course means their faith was incompatible with reality.

I miss them but I think our posts were incompatible with their faith.

What ever happened to biblenewbie and billdude?

Dub...., in recognition of your recent conversion to the LIGHT, you have been awarded a free year's membership in the Janesville Area Alliance of Atheists.

JAAA also welcomes you with two free tickets to next July's human sacrifice, where you'll be regaled as a special guest.

Welcome Aboard!!!

Dub one of the first correct things you have posted - you are correct - athiests read and think about the bible.
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Not sure about progressive or fanatic but if I pick and choose the words from your post you seem to be correct.

I wonder if Bucky realized that when she shook the dust off her feet that I and the rest of the town would encounter a fate worse than the fire and brimstone at Sodom?
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Or is she know that the story of the last decent person in Sodom according to god's moral code? You knwo where Lot offers up his virgin daughters to be raped by a crowd so that his male visitors can get a good nights sleep?

Yes. And to think that discussing the bible was originally how the word of god and Jesus was spread. Now we are at a point in the developement of the human intellect when the bible is nothing more than a monumental embarassment.

The bible sure does end conversations quickly.

Bucky - maybe this one will end with the logical conclusion being that the Christian god is good and loving and worthy of being the source of human morality?
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Exodus 12 KJV:
29And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
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30And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
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Guess the moral of the story is that if you have to slaughter innocent children to make a point, go for it!
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Please someone tell me I haven't read the context.

Numbers 31 is the best Christian silencer out there. Its spells out the magnitude of the slaughter, including god ordered baby killing.
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I think I will switch over to a different god ordered slaughter of infants passage next time. Its obvious they can't cope and/or discuss the divine atrocities found in Numbers.

Citing scripture gets them every time!!!

www.RNResponseNetwork.org
www.NationalNursesUnited.org
2000 Franklin Street
Oakland, CA 94612

Donations are welcome at:
www.SendANurse.org

I am a RN trying to get to Haiti with the Registered Nurse Response Network. I have contacted the Janesville Gazette to see about obtaining assistance in getting deployed there. The number is 1-800-578-8225. Thank you!!!

Bye.

Dust --already--shaken. May God's blessings be upon you.

Lets start posting some verse and get down to business on this Numbers 31 deal Bucky!
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Here is the verse where the Moses interacts with the soldiers who's natural moral code kicked in and they spared the children and women. Moses enforces god's orders from earlier.
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15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

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OK so how many captives were slaughtered? The passage goes on to say that there were 16,000 virgin girls that were distributed among the men - assuming an equal ratio of male to female, there were 16,000 young males slaughtered. Maybe we can come up with various scenarios to talk this number down - tough to get down to a non-horrific number of males though isn't it?
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Lets not think about that though - lets think about the women with their children in their arms being held captive. A population with 16,000 young virgin females must have had hundreds of women with male infants. So the women with their bundles would have been checked to see if the infant was female, if so the infant was taken away, if a male infant I assume the mother was speared first then the infant?
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I have read every passage in the bible that deals with this tribe and the rival gods - where do you see the context that would justify this type of slaughter? This lack of basic human decency?
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Moreover - had you been one of the soldiers and Moses told you what god wanted would you have speared a baby? If so how many?
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If you say "Pass" we can go on the the next example of the slaughter, might be easier to explain the next passage?
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What we "know" about the apostles are the concoctions of people who lived much later and in different locations. "Matthew", "Mark", "Luke", and "John" were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Ah, prounion, but there was a biblical explanation for why God asked them to do what they did. And it's found in the first 4 verses of 31 and previous chapters. You might not think it's moral, but it is not your morality they operated under.

As for Matthew 10:14, I use it only to convey that your wholehearted rejection of God would have lead the apostles to move on—they didn't continue to waste their time with individuals (or in the case of verse 15, communities) who rejected their message.

Bucky biblically there is not a valid moral explanation for god's actions. He clearly orders the death of thousands of children, not to mention the slaughter of the thousands of women, unless they were virgins, those the soldiers were allowed to keep for themselves.
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The biblical scholars I have consulted on this board have provided two responses to the passage, one is the mystery context explanation. The context is there but even a thumbnail version is impossible to convey through this meduim. The other response is - don't questions god.
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Yours is the third response - which if you continue reading that passage you have basically washed your feet of me and the rest of the town I live in because we will be detroyed by god.
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Read Numbers 31 - kill the children, keep the virgins, god orders it.

buckyfan, chritianity is a book-based religion. Once the baselessness of the bible is exposed, christianity is in no way tenable. You can't pick and choose.

That’s funny, prounion, I don’t believe in the God you describe either. I guess we agree on something.

The generic, "the Bible is a book of myths" answer to my question instead of really discussing the passage using your vast bible knowledge makes it impossible to really have a biblical discussion, doesn't it?

So why would it be worth my time or any other Christian's time. Should we not then apply Matthew 10:14?

There's a Bible verse for ya.

Bucky: "OK, prounion, if you're so knowledgeable about the Bible, explain Numbers 31: 1-4 for me please. Why was God seeking vengeance?"
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Glad you asked. My theory is that the bible is not the word of an all loving, all powerful, all knowing being that is the source of our moral code, that is all just superstition.
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This makes the explanation of the brutality of spearing thousands of children to death on god's direct orders very easy to explain. There is no god, the bible was written by men that lived in a much more brutal time, where the wholesale slaughter of innocents took place as a part of life. Makes the explanation of god endorsed slavery and rape much easier to understand as well.
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See there is no long drawn out explanations of mystery context, bending the truth backwards to attempt feebily to make it match an image of a supreme loving god, ect.
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Or if you are asking for the biblical explanation I can provide the best out there, which would go some way to explain the killing of some of the women that were captured, but the spearing of babies, some have claimed its in the context but still won't answer the question of what they would do if god ordered them to spear a baby.

All I'm thinking, is that if the Hatians did sell their souls to the devil for freedom, then which god is actually righteous. The one who enables slavery, or the one who frees those from it?

booch.....Hatred AGAINST Pat Robertson?? I am quite sure that Robertson is one of the most hate filled individuals in America.

it seems the purpose of john eyster's blog was to stir up hatred against pat robertson -- and ultimately, christians. he accomplished his goal.
eyster has always been anti-christian as well as anti-conservative.
he has a bully pulpit thanks to the gazette.
yet, he doesn't respond to emails (how hard can that be?).
i asked him if he was going to post an equally reprehensible column against danny glover's inane comments.
guess not.
when you have no spine, it's easy to condemn from the bully pulpit.

The comments on this subject typlify the polarization we see all around us. Yes, Pat Robertson has become an embarrassment to all Christians. He needs to be cut adrift by Christian conservatives. They should realize that Robertson casts a pall on all Christians and hurtst our image. But: liberal Christians such as John Eyster will choose to point out his improper remarks and ignore the improper remarks that come from the religious left - example "American Intolerance Caused 9/11" or "Hymietown" and other comments by Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. This makes them feel superior to the ignorant fundamentalists. What they really do is align themselves with those with a bigotry against all Christians. Comments on this blog point that out. The anti-Christian crowd doesn't care whether we are a "right wing redneck fundamentalist" or an "elightened left wing Christian Progressive". What it all tells me is that when we mix politics and religion, whatever the bent, politics always wins. In American we don't have to do that.

Narcissism is when someone believes he or she has a personal relationship with the almighty creator of the universe while thousands of innocent babies, children, and adults suffer and die each hour from dirty water, natural disasters, and other causes.

Maxdetail, he's home, according to a blog post I read on the Obama's 9/11 story.

Gazettefan, let me know when you'd like to meet. Till then, it's been fun and, as always, amusing.

I know this is off topic, but do any of you know if DiGriz has made it safely home. I miss his humor.

The fact is, I hold back on this site, in person I'm even better.

Now back to the real issue:

What's all this yammering about a virgin birth?!!!

Buckyfan, I don't think you should push so hard to meet with gazettefan. It may that he knows he's just not as WINSOME in real life as he is in print. You must admit that he's a bit of a charmer in these discussions.

Oh gazettefan, make up your mind. You agreed to meet me, and now you don't want to?

buckyfan, this started because you wanted to meet in a public place to talk about religion. The question is unchanged: how would an in-person conversation improve your ability to convince, persuade, or otherwise make your stance acceptable or comprehensible?

By the way, I don't abuse other people's trust.

Sandman, yes, Sam Kinnison said they are starving because they don't live where the food is. MOVE WHERE THE FOOD IS!!!

Gazettefan, your jumping in on my Bible discussion with prounion is EXACTLY why I'd like to meet with you separately.

I'll wait for his response re: my question and your response on when we will meet, thank you.

For those who are wondering how I was practicing avoidance regarding Gazettefan's post. I told him I live in another town about 45 minutes away (I actually specified which one in my email to him) and offered to meet him somewhere in Janesville. How that means I'M avoiding is perplexing.

As I am a woman, I would rather not have a stranger coming to my home, and I doubt Gazettefan would drive that far to meet me. In fact, I originally offered to meet him at a public place, and now he's making me jump through hoops (would you like my blood type, too?). So who's practicing avoidance?

If you really want to confirm I am harmless, I certainly could have someone from the Gazette staff confirm I am who I say I am. They know me personally and certainly would say I'm no danger to you. I'd rather not give you my name, address and phone number, though, because I don't want you splashing it all over this blog--we all like a little anonymity. We'll just have to agree not to use actual names when we meet. OK?

Thanks below for the PAT CONDELL Condell YouTube reference. After watching several of his commentaries that are available on YouTube, I have to say I have seen few who have had the courage and insight to speak the truth from their own perspective as much as Condell. From my perspective, he is spot-on on so many issues!

As to "God's retribution"--the Old Testament is full of such motivation and action, both for and against the Israelites. Is it then in error? Were these not God's motivations and actions? What else might be in error? Can this book be trusted at all as anything more than the imagined or embellished history of an ancient desert tribe?

And as for Pat Roberston--he should be free to speak his opinion from his perspective, and you should be free to disagree. He is no more of less foolish than those apparent race fans driving around with Dale Earnhardt, Sr's number "3" bearing a halo, angel's wings, and the subtitled motto, "God needed a driver" plastered on their cars (although he did send us his only begotten son, Dale Jr...)! And what kind of car does God have/need, anyway? Does he carry insurance when he passes through WI? There was a time when such a decal would be considered blasphemy and punishable by death (hey, change it to "Allah," sick it on your Taliban-tested Toyota truck, and see what reception you get tooling on through Khyber Pass!). After all--no one expected the Spanish Inquisition (or George W. Bush!).

And as far as Haiti, Sam Kinison was most correct when he said, "Send 'em luggage, send 'em U-hauls!" And I might add, "Send 'em birth control!" Probably the worst thing that could be imposed upon that impoverished, overpopulated region (and on the so-called "third world" in general) is that old-time religion--antiquated, anti-birth-control Roman Catholicism!

The problem with the world is its present thin, fake veneer of "tolerance" and political correctness. We will never even begin to deal with problems until people can say what they think, not what they are supposed to say! Oh yeah, and thoughts, prayers, condolences, etc.

boocn...., also, it was severely lacking in production values. Though the method actor who portrayed me, had me nailed (if you'll pardon the reference) -except he didn't have a Mohawk.

thanks g-fan. sorry bout the gesture. script courtesy maxdetail. and -- appreciate your sense of humor.

buckyfan, prounion has already displayed his immense knowledge of the bible, it is your job to explain it in a way that should justify its existence.

booch..., LOL. Though I never use vulgar gestures.

OK, prounion, if you're so knowledgeable about the Bible, explain Numbers 31: 1-4 for me please. Why was God seeking vengeance?

a movie for g-fan
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5956863

Nice try, buckyfan. But my invitation requires that you give me your home address so that I can confirm that you are you, which of course means I'll need your name. If I can't locate your phone number, you'll have to give me that too.

Your avoidant response to my invitation is a continuation of what you've been doing here. Stop it!

maxdetail, your apology at the end of your recent post is appreciated. And BRAVO for an excellently condensed version of what I've been saying here. YOU'VE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION! And you deserve credit for assuming the role of Sigmund Freud, a cocaine addicted, psychotically projective charlatan who has done almost as much to damage the American mentality as religion has. Your comparison of Freud with buckyfan and billnewbie is right on!

;~)

Thanks for taking me up on my offer, Gazettefan. Check your inbox.

Can't you just picture G-fan in the psychiatrist's office.

Dr. Freud: Tell me sir, what do you think of when you see this ink blot?

G-fan: How can you believe in a virgin birth???!!

Dr. Freud: And this one?

G-fan: JESUS WASN'T BORN IN BETHELEM, HE WAS BORN IN NAZERETH!!!!

Dr. Freud: No need to yell young man. How about this one?

G-fan: Did you ever KNEEL on RICE?????

Dr. Freud: Interesting. That will be all for today.

G-fan: Stop attacking me with your LOW brow insults!!! God is a delusion! Christians are icky! Numbers 31!!!!! Paul INVENTED JESUS! Why doesn't Luke agree with Mark????? You're impotent!!! You're psychotic! You're psychotic! You're psychotic!

(I'm just having fun with you G-fan. You need to learn to laugh at yourself... everyone is, hugs and kisses.)

billnewbie,
well said. my first post said basically the same thing. most peoplewill never go to the source of the comments. additionally, some of his comments posted on youtube did not include the entire quote. robertson clearly has passion for the people of haiti (and millions of poor elsewhere around the world.
his organization "operation blessing" has given 2.1 billion dollars in aid to the needy around the world.
he purchased a jet and turned it into a flying hospital just so he could quickly get help to the helpless.
what a jerk.

Bill wrote: But anyone that is aware of Haiti’s history could easily conclude that those terribly downtrodden people are cursed, in that they have suffered catastrophe after catastrophe, both natural and political.
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I just wanted to make sure I understood this Bill - are they really cursed in your opinion -is that why the disaster struck? It is somehow connected to their behavior?
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If they are cursed then god wants them to suffer - why send aid? Or is this an opportunity to show how great you guys are, the suffering and death and maiming is to give you people the opportunity to send blankets?

Talk all you like dudes, all we did was post passages from the bible and ask how that jived with your beliefs.
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Instead of saying yea - its a book of myths and stories written my pre-first century man. You get upset and make it about us, typing long passages about how bad we are and how you couldn't possibly address our biblical questions because of the amount of typing it would take.
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Have we read the bible - well we sure post more from it.

buckyfan and billnewbie, the ruse of your claim for in-person conversation collapses under the weight of self-condemnation. That is: instead of typing here what you would say in person you offer an invitation that is a glaring (and usual) example of avoidance and defeat.

Pretend we are together and scroll down to the bottom of this page and type the words of your most compelling point of view -then post it. Pretending we are together shouldn't tax your imaginations very much in that you can both fathom virgin birth and resurrection after death, right?

If either of you is still bent on an in-person conversation, email me your home address and I'll stop over -of course, I will email you first before I visit.

Don't be afraid.

So prounion and gazettefan are not willing to meet, then? Sorry to hear it. It seems you two are afraid to play, just like you claim Christians are when they decide it's not worth trying to make points in this forum.

Truth is, we see the futility of our typing to respond to a couple of troll-like posters with marching orders from the pridefully arrogant Richard Dawkins. Civility and genuine interest in exchanging viewpoints is wasted on you. I respect my atheist brothers greatly for their willingness to hear me out instead of trying to "beat" me with condescension--and I extend to them the same civility. We all enjoy a solid discussion that starts with respecting one another--something I strongly believe you lack in your debates in this forum.

Let me know when you want to have a real discussion. I might not have all the answers, but I certainly could challenge many of your statements/false claims (especially yours gazettefan).

And I'll use the logic you so proudly beat your chest about having all the while claiming we have none. (Both sides of any argument believe they are more logical and more correct than the other side. That's why our government is so polarized.)

Me thinks the truth is that you are afraid to meet with me, prounion, because you will not be able to mine the internet for more arguments and talking points. Have YOU really read the Bible? Or are you both shrinking violets who only get their strength in the anonymity of your keyboard?

Buckyfan, your assessment of Prounion's intentions are accurate. So don't expect any emails from him or Gazettefan. But if they do want to meet for a serious bible study, I'd like to get in on it!

Maxdetail, you obviously know that Gazettefan doesn't speak for me (though he is pretentious enough to try anyway). Like his personal and fanciful biblical interpretations, his assessment of what I think and feel is just as inaccurate.

I read that article you linked, John. In it I found, at the end beyond where that question you referred to was written, the following,
“ UPDATE: In a statement on its Web site, the Christian Broadcasting Network said Robertson was speaking objectively about Haiti's history that has led ‘countless scholars and religious figures over the centuries to believe the country is cursed: Dr. Robertson never stated that the earthquake was God's wrath," the statement reads. ‘If you watch the entire video segment, Dr. Robertson's compassion for the people of Haiti is clear.’ “
John, was that update there when you read the article?

I also sought out the video of Robertson’s broadcast and found it as well. It seems to me that Robertsons’ error was in believing that the “Pact with the Devil” was an historical event. No evidence of it exists beyond hearsay. But anyone that is aware of Haiti’s history could easily conclude that those terribly downtrodden people are cursed, in that they have suffered catastrophe after catastrophe, both natural and political. While it’s clear that Robertson implies that these catastrophes are a result of that “Pact”, it’s not like he advocates leaving the Haitians in their misery. Quite the opposite actually since his organization is gathering contributions for Haitian relief efforts. Robertson gets foot in mouth disease every now and then. He may even suffer from delusions of grandeur. But he still has compassion for the Haitians as his relief efforts show. After seeing the video for myself, it’s clear that the various condemnations of Robertson are a bit overblown, though not totally baseless.

buckyfan, ponder the pitfalls of in-person conversation and you'll realize that posting here is the best way to discuss almost any topic -especially religion.

Here you can clearly state your thoughts without interuption and with a minimum of misinterpratation. Really, really think about it.

And it's good typing practice.

Most importantly, you have to come to terms with the fact that the bible is not an unasailable target for condemnation. You can't really use it to establish your beliefs convincingly. That's the mistake maxdetail and others make.

Max interesting article where the guys spends his time trying to bend over backwards to fit recent historical events in reality with his views of his imaginary god. Re-read the article and there is a far more simple explanation - there is no god.
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I do credit him with bringing up the fact that an earthquake failed to hit Nazi Germany.
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He suraly must realize that it could have been the anger of a voodoo god that caused the quake - there is just as much evidence to support that.

Bucky I think we both "attack" christianity in exactly the same way - with reason and logic. Believe me if you had any answers more logical than the ones we have heard from the christians to date, you would be ready to post them.

After a careful pondering of the situation, I've come to the conclusion that.......it's all Obama's fault!

buckyfan, your offer has assassination written all over it.

:~)

Later.

Gazettefan, I didn't dodge anything. I'm serious. You want to have a real Bible discussion, let's meet. Let's sit down and have it out.

If you and prounion really want to know (and prounion, I already said that this earthquake occurred as part of God's natural order, or did you not understand that?), we can meet in a public place, have coffee, tea, beer, whatever and slog through all these accusations and questions you have. It would save me a load of time typing.

My one request, though, is to meet with each of you separately. You both attack Christianity in different ways, so I'd like to also address them separately.

Looking forward to getting together with you.

Dr. Albert Mohler regularly is called upon to give a balanced and Biblical response to our culture and to tragedies like this one. Here he writes about the calamity in Haiti:

http://www.albertmohler.com/2010/01/14/d...

In reality you know that this was the result of tetonic plates moving and poor constuction standards right?

Quick question if you are not to questions god's slaughter and actions, and he has a putrpose, that you can't possibly understand because you are so very lowly, then why would Haiti need your prayers? Are you somehow influencing god's behavior? Will god's anger be soothed by your prayers?
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As far as the baby slaughter in Numbers31, since god and jesus are seperate entities but the same, I guess it was Jesus that ordered the spearing of the children?

buckyfan, prounion's post is reasonable. You are taking the typical dodge and duck tactic of many chrisitians who cannot intelligently discuss scripture.

And to those of you who are stating what "god's" actions are re: natural disasters and mass death, I can only say: WHAT THE ......!!!

Who cares about Pat Robertson? There is no shortage of people with opinions. Write a blog about how/ways people can help those Haiti. It would be more productive and less divisive.

Prounion, we both know you have no desire to really discuss faith. Your goal has always been to lay traps and insult others' beliefs through these blogs.

While I certainly would have no problem discussing this issue in the context
of a larger study, I am certain it would be fruitless.

And unlike your claims to the contrary, I am under no biblical obligation to do so with you or others of your ilk.

If you are truly interested in having a meaningful debate, contact me by email so we can arrange a time to meet. I don't have time for all the typing you demand.

Jason: I agree with what you said... "I did find your post difficult to read, but it shows you are truely writing from the heart." And, in journalism, for a person to open themselves up and write from the heart... Kudos!

As a Christian who was raised Roman Catholic, I am not offended by what this man said because it does not have a ring of truth to it and he is not going to control how I feel. He spews hatred and has conversations with the devil. Some people get locked up for that in institutions because they are considered mentally insane. Yet, this is a person people gave a voice to? And now we are giving him more of a voice by debating his offensiveness? Let him fade away until it's his day to be judged. Then and only then will he really know where he stands.

John, I am also offended - but not surprised - but Robertson's comments. If we were looking for religeous extremists in this country, he's one of them.

I did find your post difficult to read, but it shows you are truely writing from the heart.

I read all your comments but i just wanna say this, if all you guys are really christians, y'all should know that everything happen for a reason. God we'll protect everyone that needs to be protected. God is not an unjust God and all those lives thats been taking away, only God has a say in that and why he chooses those people to die. We are bunch of sinners and we're no better than them, yet we still alive. I just feel like its not over yet for Haiti and a lot of people that have been saved will probably turn their lives to Christ. So God has His own purpose and He works in mysterious ways. All I have to say is that, God gives, so God takes. Only the Lord knows the reasons for all those suffering and heartache. Instead of arguing, keeps Haiti in your prayers and hope for the best. I've been worried sick since day one by not knowing where any of my relatives are, and yet I try not to jump to conclusion. God is great and every single person that actually make it out alive and those that have someone over there(Haiti) that live to see another day gonna have a testimony in their mouths and God's name will be glorified, and there, they'll know the power of God. God forbid if none of relatives survive that earthquake, i know for a fact that i would be devastated, but I know it's for a reason thats why they didnt make it. God is faithful, God is great all the time, and all the time He gets even better. PRAY FOR HAITI CUZ HAITI NEEDS IT!!!.

just caught a little bit of Laura Ingram on WCLO and she is mad that we are helping the Haitians !!! Is she the same religion as Rush Limbaugh, who also is angry that we are helping the Haitians so quick. !!! with prominent Republicans speaking over the airwaves with that kind of attitude sure makes me wonder !!!!!!

Cottonjoe: You forgot to add Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingram, and Glenn Beck to your list of "Nutjobs".

Wow, take a deep breathe and count to ten John. This isn't the first time Robertson has offended the faithful and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Buckyfan, care to take a stab at explaining Numbers 31 where god orders the slaughter of thousands of children/infants?
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An infant is always considered innocent, unless your a christian. But in this case do you think they had it coming? Would you have carried out the order from god to spear babies?

I usually try to not waste my time on listening to Pat Robertson because pretty much everything he says is ridiculous/offensive/untrue. How people can really believe he is a "man of god" I will never know.

I am no more offended by Robertson's comments than I am by your anti-education stance or assination comments made on WCLO.

I read my Bible, prounion, but have come to an entirely different conclusion than Pat Robertson. And I do not believe that God needs/uses prophets anymore. His message is complete.

While it’s entirely in God’s power to punish evil through storm, earthquake, drought and the like, I also think the natural order he has established on this earth is what causes these calamities.

Why does he allow such suffering? I cannot answer that. But the spirit within me has lead me to believe that it is our duty as Christians to help these people and others in whatever way we can. We will be judged by our action or inaction.

Has God gone outside the natural order of this world to bring about his will? Yes. But he also used to guide his people through his physical presence (cloud, fire, flesh), and he no longer does that.

Besides, God destroyed places where there were no believers, where everyone was purely evil and beyond redemption. That is not the case in Haiti. There are many Christians there, including the many missionaries who have also lost their lives in this calamity.

i think gazettextra should put in a like/dislike tab on the comments. thumbs up/thumbs down kinda thing. id thumb that one up gfan;)

The whole idea of the Christ as a savior has nothing to do with Jesus. The Christ was invented decades after Jesus died by people who never knew him.

The idea of atonement is very sick: Someone "sins" against you but you are removed from the problem while a savior "forgives" or atones for the sinner. What?!!! No thanks!!!

What, Pat Robertson isn't entitled to his opinion? Outrageous as it is to most, it's his view and his forum. It's OK to disagree. Don't watch him if you don't like him. I always thought Molly Ivins was off her rocker, but I didn't complain about it, nor did I begrudge her right to be wrong. The same is true for those nutjobs Bill Moyers, Al Franken, and Bill Maher. I simply don't watch them. In this day and age, there are plenty of public figures out there you can go to to hear your same views. If you're offended, turn it off.

Hey look Christians how do you know Pat did not talk to god - don't you have to have faith that he did? The type of slaughter and heartache along with the corresponding baby killing is typical angry christian god behavior so I don't undertand why you guys are not buying that it was god that detroyed the lives of so many with that earthquake? You have all read your bible right? You don't just put your money in the plate and listen to the passages your pastor reads off right? I mean this is eternity and the potential for eternal burning alive we are talking about here I would think you guys would have it memorized if you really believe that is.

Let ye among you without sin cast the first stone! Pat Robertson says things like he is God. May God forgive him. He'd better pack sunscreen where he's going!

Hank: And, my question to you is: Why haven't you eradicated homelessness and hunger in America?

Oh, and I now feel comfortable placing Pat Robertson in the same narcissistic category as that freak of a former governor of Illinois... Rod Blagojevich. Sick, sick males (because, from what I've understood the definition of "men" as being, they do NOT fit in that category!).

Wow! I agree that Pat Robertson is a complete idiot. How in this world does he know what God wants? That's the problem with the HUMAN race. Sure, we were given a brain to think with, but that doesn't make us God. AND, it definitely does not give us the power to say something as he did. Does he have some sort of inside track to God, where God told him this? Or, is he the Devil on Earth?

EYsTeR, a man of GoD? Anyone who publicly calls for the assassination of one of our elected officials is no man of God. Listen to the WCLO podcast. You're a dope John and a hypocrite and this is the last time I read your material. If you're guest pastoring anywhere I hope the congregation doesn't show.

Pat Robertson is a man, not God. He is not perfect. He makes mistakes like the rest of us. He does do many good things. Let's not forget the good and focus only on the bad. No, I don't agree with the statement but what comes to my mind is perhaps this is another wake up call. Are YOU ready - in the sense of accepting Christ as your savior? One never knows when ones last day will be. A disaster of any kind can happen anytime. Don't "assume" everyone goes to heaven. There is a hell. My prayers go out to the Haiti people. We are all children of God, whether you believe in him or not. It's up to you to decide where you want to spend eternity. God gave us free will. One does not have to accept him.

Geesh John, I think you've unleashed a monster.

And certain proponents of the bible here claim that clear-thinkers are unfairly focusing on the wrong things in that book.

WOW; I guess it's all been explained now...
Hurricanes wiping out the cess pool of New Orleans, and Hati. Twisters constantly knocking out the trailer park trash..
All makes sense now...It's God's retribution.
Thanks Pat!
Case settled

Dwight....., speak for yourself re: Robertson's lucre.

As for my MD or lack thereof, if Robertson walked into my office, I'd label him psychotic faster than I could write his prescription for Thorazine. (Imagine him in control of a military.)

thanx for the invite gfan...but WHEN that happens i will be to busy with my legal business of growing and selling the finest pot in the land to try and help you. i deal with hypocrisy enough...there is NO way im gonna care enough to deal with it MORE and join your fight...

Marienburg, I'm surprised (or maybe not) that you don't seem to have been on board during some of the discussions of faith and religion that have fallen under many headings on GazetteExtra.
In my mind, I can't imagine it being put in a more succinct way than your comment "Unfortunately, all organized religion is susceptible to the fallabilities and weaknesses of man. Religion must be distinguished from faith."
My faith IS different (to some degree) from the reasons for my presence during gatherings of the organized religion I belong to. But, being a tool of God, I personally find it much easier to implement what I believe God wants me to do accompanied by others who have the same private faith, and that is where organized religion comes in (for me, and I'm sure many). Like for missionaries, it's much more practical to build (or rebuild in this case) a school, hospital, home... with other like-minded individuals. Take the lady's quilting group-they may all have their own ideas of how a quilt should be made, but generally speaking if you bring them together, their joint-venture quilt will still do what was intended-keep some cold soul warm at night.
I believe God wants us to do this, to do our part to alleviate the suffering of others. And I don't believe he destroys it just to watch us rebuild it just to destroy it again. Why does it happen? I don't know, except the earth, like we humans, is imperfect and "dynamic". We passed up perfection a long time ago. And organized religion doesn't equate with evil (as some would say. That's where individuals come in), but it is, as you pointed out, "susceptible to the fallabilities and weaknesses of man"
I've tried to state this in different forums, and several have done this with much greater dedication and grace than I (and I certainly don't have the time to dedicate my life to a Gazette forum), but just because I'm not a smooth wordsmith does not mean my "understanding" doesn't have any merit, but my (and others' statements of belief) certainly give a handful of others great joy in picking apart their comments. Maybe we could all use our time more wisely (for whatever inner voice compells us) and do something useful.

I hope you aren't a doctor, gazettefan; your use of the words "psychotic" and "psychosis" are being used WAY out of the context of the medical definitions. I hold no opinion of religion, but basing a belief on a historical text is neither psychotic nor a type of psychosis. Now, whether nor not "God" speaking to Robertson is in fact real, concocted, or a psychotic delusion is known only to him. We all understand your concern for Mr. Robertson's mental health, but if having psychosis leads to having a multi-million dollar job and network; I think we all wish we were stricken.

True, prounion, it's like christians haven't thought out the voodoo that is the drinking of Christ's blood and the eating of his body.

thekid, once reefer gets legalized, help us with ridding the world of folderol.

prounion: funny, the same thing happens with the uninformed in my discussions;)

familyof4 said it best.

Marianburg...., your separation of faith and religion is untenable. Christianity is a book-based religion. No book, no bible, then no christianity. No christianity, then no faith.

Hence the problem of the psychosis of the bible nourishing the psychosis of Robertson.

Voodoo is just as real and valid a faith as Jesus, Allah and the rest of them. Its all just make believe superstition and each time you get into the nitty gritty of someone's faith it soon becomes clear that they have not read the bible and have not thought through thier beliefs, typically when you do that they get angry, say a few things about you and vanish.

thediplomat,
yep all those idiots who donated to CBN are each responsible for a portion of the 2.1 billion dollars in humanitarian aid given to help millions of people around the world.
those same idiots have already mobilized funds and human help to assist the devastated in Haiti.
Complete IDIOTS!

I agree with you, John, but must take it a step further. Unfortunately, all organized religion is susceptible to the fallabilities and weaknesses of man. Religion must be distinguished from faith. It is one's faith, and that faith alone, between he and God, that is the beginning and the end of belief. Religion is a man-made institutional structure used in an attempt to organize those of faith into like-minded groups. In fact, faith and religion could even be mutually exclusive. Pat Robertson's statement is just yet another example of warped organized religious manipluation. It is wrong and diminshes all people of faith. He ought to be ashamed and ask for forgiveness, but Pat Robertson's vindictive God surely would forsake, rather than forgive, Pat for his error.

very diplomatically said...

Anyone who has ever sent money to an Evangilist is an IDIOT!

The bible explains what happened in Haiti as a matter of supernatural evil forces doing battle with god. Of course this isn't true. It's merely bad luck. The larger point is that a nut job christian like Robertson can "legitimize" his psychotic delusions with the "authenticity" of the bible!!!

Pat Robertson has been a very influencial tool in my experience and growth in my Christian life and I am deeply saddened not only by his statements, but also for the timing of his comments. This is not a time for jibberish, especially spiritual jibberish; it is a time for compassion, action, giving, caring and reaching out to our fellow human beings. It's ironic that his charitable organization, Operation Blessing, will one of the most influencial private organizations helping the Haitian people recover from this devastation. It would be much better if Pat focused on that than expounding on his historic evaluation of why the Haitian people have suffered so much in their culture. I forgive you Pat, just shut up!

Pat Robertson's statements say far more about his own hubris than anything about God's will.

Well if there is one thing the bible tells us for sure - the devil did not cause all those deaths. Through the bible he only killed a handful, god on the other hand hundreds of thousands of men, women, children, babies, ect.
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So its extremely unlikely that the devil caused the earthquake but its clear that god has anger issues.
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But earthquakes should have stopped once Jesus came on the scene right? After that point no more punishment on earth - you had a way to get to heaven via Jesus, don't take that way and its burned alive forever for you. So why didn't earthquakes and tornados and drought stop when Jesus came on board? Is god's warth not quenched by eternal torment so he needs a few clamities while we are on earth?

I put as much stock in Pat Robertson as I do with the emails I get telling me I've won millions in a Nigerian lottery. Strange...I've won the Nigerian lottery several times this year as well as having long lost relatives die in plane crashes leaving me with millions. My response...give it to Pat Robertson.

Sounds like Pat Robertson has finally admitted that he converses with Satan. Which begs the question-

So Pat, what is the proper table wine to serve when you dine with the Devil?

This fellow debunks the 'pact' myth pretty well. It's been around for some time. This article was written in '05.

http://www.blackandchristian.com/article...

I want proof of this deal. Signed documents would be good. I would naturally assume that any pact with the devil would be duly filed with the UN.

If you want to help and have a cell phone you can do so. Text Haiti to 90999 and it donates $10 to help those poor people. As of this morning on the Today show, 3 million dollars have been collected this way. The ten dollars will appear on your next bill. We have a family plan with 4 phones and we all did it. That is about all we can do to help, wish we could do more, but is a start.

He didn't say it? Then who is this guy? He even quotes details of the transaction.
http://www.breitbart.tv/they-have-been-c...

maxdetail - I have a better idea, lets worry about Americans first, then take care of others when we are all good.

Breakdown, maxdetail, breakdown. You can only fake not being brutalized by your religion for a short time and not being an inarticulate troll yourself, simultaneously. How much kneeling did they make you do? Did they make you kneel on rice?

G-fan, you asked a good question, I gave my best answer, now you've turned troll like again. Have fun with this thread guys, this is your reason for being here. You ought to be able to drag this out for a thousand posts.
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I don't know Mr. Billnewbie but I think he's an amazing guy and much more patient than myself. He should get hazardous duty pay for debating with you boys of bluster.
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By the way G-fan, you actually had me feeling bad for you while you were bagging my groceries and telling me how much you hate living in your mom's basement. I almost teared up.
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Everybody, in spite of the trolls and their attempt to make this thread about themselves, pray for the poor people of Haiti. Give money to an established aid organization. We are all in this together. Blessings.

Actually, the Chicago Tribune reports that Robertson issued a statement saying that that wasn't what he said. He said that Haiti was troubled by the compromises they'd made in earlier years, such as reliance on Voodoo, but that that *didn't* cause the earthquake. Perhaps some reporter felt that putting words in Robertson's mouth could be a good way to get a story that would spread wide and far? And that people could use to slam Christians in general?

Here is Operation Blessings Annual Report:
http://www.ob.org/press_room/annual_repo...

Robertson's group has given 2.1 billion in aid. Forbes calls them "one of America;s most efficient charities."

Call Robertson what you will and slam him for his views. But, he is helping the suffering.

max, how did you ever come to the concusion that the Robertson-style blather in the bible is actually the word and will of god? Who told you that? And why did you believe him or her?

How did "theologians" attain inerrancy when comes to "explaining" the bible? And how did you end up with all this wild assumptions?

Most tales of deals with the devil involve the trading of one's immortal soul for fame and riches in this world. If the Haitians brokered a pact with satan, they did not drive a very hard bargain. Robertson's bile toward Haiti is probably based on the fact that the two major religions are Catholicism and voodoo, respectively, both, in his view, possibly equivalent to each other and approximate to satanism .

wonder how many people actually watched robertson's comments. he told a story of why haiti, in his opinion, experiences abject poverty (while their neighbors, the dominican republic, dont).
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then he said, "enough about that, we need to pray for these people and get the relief on its way."
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believe it or not, robertson's organization regularly provides relief in money, food, health supplies, people, doctors, etc. to the tune of millions and millions of dollars.
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wonder how many of you have done the same?

Max - in reality - we can explain exactly what happened in Haiti - we know how earthquakes happen and don't need superstition to explain it.
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I do like that you at least quoted passages from the bible. Doesn't it strike you as a sort of childish explanation though? Like telling a kid don't worry this imaginary being still loves us, the terror and death and destruction all make sense, to him not us, don't worry he is still up there and you will still live forever, back to sleep child.
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Santa will come in the morning, don't worry about how he gets to all those houses, don't worry about houses with chimneys, just have faith and you will be rewarded. Back to sleep child.

Pat Robertson is a nut job.

G-fan, it's my sense of humor, not my sense of delusional power. Low-brow insults? Yeah, you got me there.
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Robertson is offensive because his are not the words of Scripture. He does not speak for God. We may ask, was this catastrophe the judgment of God? We don't know. Was it NOT the judgment of God? We don't know. We know that this was ordained by God because God tells us something of his character in Isaiah 45:
"I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things."
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Many Christians will disagree with me but I don't believe in accidents, everything that happens is within the providence of God and many things, such as this horrible calamity, have a purpose that is hidden. I don't know why this happened. Theologians call this the hidden will, or decretive will, or secret will of God. Dueteronomy 29:29 says, “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."
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On the other hand, God's revealed will, as proscribed in the Bible, what we OUGHT to do, is pray for those people, give aid and comfort, send money and in every way show them mercy. We have many missionaries in Haiti who are in danger even as they attempt to help.
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Robertson didn't say this was 'karma' and he didn't say we shouldn't help but he was wrong to speak for God about the secret things of God.
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So we waste time trying to figure out why catastrophes happen, our response should only be to run to the aid of these poor souls. It is wrong for Robertson to use this to enhance his show just as it is wrong for the atheist to use this for another beat down on Christianity.

max, always displays nicely how he's been brutalized by his religion. I'd bet even billnewbie is ashamed of him.

maxdetail: Thank you for, once again, as always, demonstrating the true nature of your character and mental health without my assistance.

Not offended any more than what comes out of the mouth of Al Shapton, Jesse Jackson, and Harry Reid....

maxdetail, your sense of delusional power is duly noted -how impotent you must actually feel! Now let's have an intelligent response instead of your usual low-brow insults. You're an educated christian, aren't you?

Explain why Robertson's words aren't worthy of scripture.

No, I am not at all offended by his commentary.

Pro, G-fan, you guys took a whole hour to take the stage after I introduced you. I was getting nervous you wouldn't show, the audience was restless. Thank you for coming through for me. Whatever I paid you for your last dog and pony show... double it, you're worth every penny.

Sannio, Mr. Condell is another fine example of a man who doesn't believe in God, has no use for God except to talk about God, think about God, prattle on and on about God, speak for God, speak against God, obsess about God and use God to find some personal relevancy through video blogging... about God. If there is no God then God should not matter to these perpetual whiners. Pull his string and God talk comes out. Move along, nothing to see here.

Max - I think cottarman and Pat said it all. Jesus will detroy you in a disaster if you are bad, yet will allow the 30,000 children under the age of 5 to die each day due to lack of drinking water.
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I do however wonder about the christians that drown in their attic, if they were so bad that god needed to kill them too, but I guess its not our place to question such things? It doesn't make you wonder if a loving all powerful god is up there influencing things? Of course not we are low and bad and should just keep putting our money in the plate, its not our place to question right?

The people who wrote the bible claimed they were writing the words of god. Many of them wrote words similar to Robertson's. Judeo-christian belief is entirely based in the bible, the so-called inspired word of god.

I'm no more offended by Pat Robertson than I would be if someone said the Earthquake was caused by the special arrangement of the planets, or that it was caused by that mysterious object that whizzed by Earth last night at a distance of 80K miles. There's a gentleman posting videos on YouTube who expresses my opinion about this subject quite clearly in his 62 videos. Considering the background image you've chosen for your blog, you may be interested in watching at least a few of them.
There is some strong language at times, be forewarned if you're easily offended by that.
Pat Condell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1czXvHSjD...

"Is it time that we stop paying attention to Pat Robertson?" I think the time passed a long time ago.
To borrow from a great movie, when discussing Robertson's statements "You are talking about the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind!"
I also refuse to surrender the ID/title Christian.

I have found that my way of dealing with the utterances of Pat Robertson and is not to get too stressed by in any way taking him seriously. I have simply labeled him a goofball, and rather enjoy watching him goof.

Pat Robertson, as do those in the Word of Faith wing of the church, believe that God speaks to them by name and gives them new and extra-Biblical revelation. It is just shear arrogance for any man to think he speaks for God. Robertson has proven over and over that is zeal is born out of ignorance, his conclusions are foolish.
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And now for the foolish, arrogant and mind numbing response from the anti-Christian side, I present to you Prounion, Fool On The Hill, and Gazettefan. Take it away boys, just pull her back and let her go. This is your kind of thread - troll food, bon apetit!

Don't surrender the title 'Christian'. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Followers of Christ believe, uphold, and do what Jesus Christ says. In Luke ch. 13 verses 1 - 5 Jesus answered the question of the guilt of people who suffer in disasters. He made it clear that those who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them were no more or less guilty than any other person. He did of course take the opportunity to emphasise that every one of us needs to repent before it's too late. Jesus also made it clear (Luke ch. 4 vv. 18 & 19) that bringing freedom and release for the oppressed are among the reasons for Him coming into the world.

If you believe and uphold these statements of Jesus, you can still own the label 'Christian'. Anyone who says differently makes Jesus a liar and therefore cannot possibly be a true Christain.

(However, as an Englishman writing from across 'the pond', I really cannot understand why your forefathers wanted to be independent of us! - only joking.)